Europe is highly progressive

[Martin Hyde]

Here's an interesting link (it's in Polish, so if you can't read Polish, don't bother):

Link (http://miasta.gazeta.pl/warszawa/1,34862,2717518.html)

The mayor of Warsaw has banned a LGBT parade from taking place. He said he couldn't allow the parade because it is "promotion of homosexuality" and "a threat to public safety" as many right wing groups were threatening action against the parade.

Here (http://www.mojeprawa.info/raportONZtekst.htm) is an interesting report about homosexuality in Poland.

Some interesting points from the above link:

-In Polish schools there is a significant lack of sexual education due to being replaced by so-called "Preparation for living in a family" inspired by the Roman Catholic religion. There are some school books officially recommended by the Ministry of Education which describe homosexuality as a perversion and illness. It stays in opposition to the human rights WHO standards.

-There were some cases when prosecutors and courts rejected claims of homosexuals stating that they were discriminated against or offended as a group. The explanation of these rejections was that homosexuals are not a social group. Unfortunately, the Polish Ombudsman does not see any manifestations of discrimination of this group and does not undertake any action to combat discrimination of homosexuals.

-The "Equality Parade" - parade of LGBT people and their supporters, planned to take place on 11 June 2004, was banned by Warsaw's mayor Lech Kaczynski. The gay and lesbian demonstration was said to be "sexually obscene" and a "danger to the public morality". He said the demonstration's objective was to spread pornography and to hurt others' religious feelings.

-The March for Tolerance which was held in Cracow in May 2004 was attacked by right wing political groups led by member of the Polish parliament (representative of League of Polish Families party) and local authorities. The march, which was planned to support rights of LGBT people gathered around 3000 people. They were pelted with firecrackers, eggs, bottles and rocks by around 300 counter-demonstrators. Police prevention was not protecting from the attacks. As a result some people were injured.

-In 2003 a gay couple was arrested by Police in the center of Warsaw because they were kissing. The reason of arrest was "obscenity".

Yes, it's sad indeed that the United States is so significantly behind the ultra-progressive EU in homosexual rights and equality matters.

[Gangster Octopus]

Why would you think Europe is more progressive than the US? Besides homosexuality, racism is a huge problem in Europe, arguably worse than the US.

[Martin Hyde]

Well, we're here to "Fight Ignorance" and I feel people on this forum focus far too much on homophobia in America. Far too often people make generalisations about Americans and our relations with homosexuals. I feel that a bit of investigative reporting is appropriate here, to put certain things in context. Sure, things aren't great for gays here in America, but they are certainly a lot worse in some parts of the EU.

[GorillaMan]

You are aware that Poland isn't exactly representative of Europe, or of the EU? If you want to pit Polish homophobia, your evidence would be useful. As it stands, you're making the same mistake as anybody who uses Hicksville, Alabama as a benchmark for America.

[treis]

Gee, Martin Hyde perhaps there is a slight variation between Western and Eastern Europe. I know this is an outlandish proposition but perhaps when people say European they are referring to the Western countries that hold the ideals they are appealing to. Your OP is akin to a person trotting out Peurto Rico to show that America isn't rich.

[treis]

Dangit Gorrilaman you beat me by a minute, at least I changed my example from Alabama to Puerto Rico.

[Revtim]

Gee, maybe they talk about America because the majority of them are in America.

[Giraffe]

Yes, it's sad indeed that the United States is so significantly behind the ultra-progressive EU in homosexual rights and equality matters.You know, your OP would be a lot more effective if you left out the stupid parts. Discrimination against homosexuals in Poland doesn't refute the statement that the EU as a whole is more progressive than the U.S. as a whole. If you actually believe and want to demonstrate that the EU as a whole is less progressive than the U.S. with respect to homosexuality, it would probably be helpful to show cites about a representative sampling of countries. If you want to Pit Polish attitudes toward homosexuality, stick to that.


Disclaimer: Posting as a poster, not a mod.

[Giraffe]

Damn, I'm slow! Jesus.

[Scott Plaid]

Some times, I forget that the name for the country Dutch people are from is called the Netherlands, so I point out that "While we in America are just gaining the right for gay people to marry, and it is progressing in fits and starts, over in Europe, the Dutch have had marriage for five years (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/922024.stm) , and the sky has not fallen yet." Due to my calling the Dutch Europeans, I must have set off the OP. Sorry. ::I would put a blushing smiley here, but it looks to much like something else.:

But really, why do people listen to, or give even the least bit of credit to meme's like "Liberal believe this...", or "Liberal believe that..."?

[Kimstu]

Poland in particular is quite conservative on sexuality issues, largely due to the post-Communist resurgence of conservative Catholicism.

[Martin Hyde]

You are aware that Poland isn't exactly representative of Europe, or of the EU? If you want to pit Polish homophobia, your evidence would be useful. As it stands, you're making the same mistake as anybody who uses Hicksville, Alabama as a benchmark for America.

Well, I guess you've won the door prize. That was the whole point of my post.

[Kimstu]

Oh. Sorry Martin, but I think that was too subtle for us. Did anybody here interpret the OP as meaning that you shouldn't use a non-representative small subset to infer general conclusions about a larger population?

'Cause stupid me, I thought you were just complaining about homophobia in Poland and the EU in general.

[Martin Hyde]

You know, your OP would be a lot more effective if you left out the stupid parts. Discrimination against homosexuals in Poland doesn't refute the statement that the EU as a whole is more progressive than the U.S. as a whole. If you actually believe and want to demonstrate that the EU as a whole is less progressive than the U.S. with respect to homosexuality, it would probably be helpful to show cites about a representative sampling of countries. If you want to Pit Polish attitudes toward homosexuality, stick to that.


Disclaimer: Posting as a poster, not a mod.

I'll agree with that. However I must admit I tried to style my post in the same form that many people do when they rant against America's "homophobia." I think there is something to be learned whe you do to the goose as is done to the gander, or something.

How the EU stacks against the U.S. in gay relations is a fairly difficult thing to measure, imo. Most of Easter Europe is fairly unreceptive to homosexuals and gay rights. And Italy (one of the trillion dollar giants) is also very much against gay marriage and no politician will touch it there.

Official EU policy is fairly supportive of gay rights, though. But EU policy isn't like U.S. Federal law, it has much less power inside individual EU member states.

The thing is it's a complex issue and I don't think we can say for sure who is more progressive, the EU or the U.S. I feel the U.S. is *very* progressive culturally as we have many shows on mainstream TV devoted to or openly accepting of homosexuality. We have many areas of the country where no one takes any special notice of gays walking down the street with interlocked hands. I'd say our statutory laws are behind the actual state of our society as a whole. While in Europe I'd say their statutory laws are far ahead of their society in many areas.

Again I really don't think we can say one is more progressive than the other. And an important point I hoped to highlight was the fact that the United States is very different regionally, not as different as Europe but it's actually quite close in my opinion. If you've never been to the United States or you've never travelled you'd be shocked how different one region is from the other.

[FinnAgain]

Wouldn't it be accurate to say that "most western European nations are more progressive in regards to their treatments of the GLBT community than is average in Amreica?"

I mean, sure, we can compare Poland to San Fransisco if we really want, but by and large, America is not as progressive as most of western Europe.

[Martin Hyde]

Oh. Sorry Martin, but I think that was too subtle for us. Did anybody here interpret the OP as meaning that you shouldn't use a non-representative small subset to infer general conclusions about a larger population?

'Cause stupid me, I thought you were just complaining about homophobia in Poland and the EU in general.

I had hoped you all were able to get it, and unless you're just being snarky I guess you did right away. I don't think Gorilla did though, or he wouldn't have posted in the way he did.

Weak flame btw, I suggest improving yourself before trying to piss me off again.

[Giraffe]

I'll agree with that. However I must admit I tried to style my post in the same form that many people do when they rant against America's "homophobia." I think there is something to be learned whe you do to the goose as is done to the gander, or something.Without a specific reference to what you're mocking, I think it just makes you look dumb, sorry to say. Parody only really works if it's obviously a parody.

[Kimstu]

Martin: I had hoped you all were able to get it, and unless you're just being snarky I guess you did right away.

Nope, sorry, I was being perfectly serious (though I was trying to be a little snarky too). I completely missed the irony in your OP and was settling down for a nice enlightening discussion about how and why Poland has significantly more homophobia than most other parts of the EU, when you revealed that you were being ironic. Oh well. No, I don't think any of us got it until you explained it, though I could be wrong.

[Scott Plaid]

No, I don't think any of us got it until you explained it, though I could be wrong.Did I see it as Parody? No. Sarcasm? Yes.

[Guinastasia]

And Italy (one of the trillion dollar giants) is also very much against gay marriage and no politician will touch it there.

*snort* Considering Italy once elected their most popular porn star to Parliment (who would then flash every one at public appearances), that's pretty damned amusing. (Well, not really to homosexual Italians, I guess).

[GorillaMan]

I had hoped you all were able to get it, and unless you're just being snarky I guess you did right away. I don't think Gorilla did though, or he wouldn't have posted in the way he did

Nope, I've re-read your OP in detail, and I see no irony. I see a rant about a specific news item. (Of course, Americans don't 'get' irony. There's your cliche)

If you wanted to suggest that the specific situation in Poland is being extrapolated to cover Europe, in the same way as bible-belt ideas seem to have an influence across America, then maybe you should have, errrrr, given us some evidence? Everything you've shown suggests it's a fairly provincial issue, which has caused no wider debate.

[Guinastasia]

Poland in particular is quite conservative on sexuality issues, largely due to the post-Communist resurgence of conservative Catholicism.

Well, it's not like the USSR was exactly gay friendly, to put it mildly.

[Queen Bruin]

Is this what Bush really meant when he said, "Don't forget Poland!"?

[Imasquare]

Poland is part of the "new Europe" that desparately wants to imitate the US, or at least all of the negative aspects of the US.

[JRDelirious]

Now, Imasquare that doesn't work as well, because it doesn't make a necessary parallel. You can be a homophobe peacenik or a gay-friendly imperialist.

OTOH, Martin's comment (and MH, we must make sure our irony is not so dry it chokes people), since it DOES bring up a reality that both the USA and the EU have more backwards components, does constitute a critique of the generalization "Europe = progressive, USA = retrograde". Weakened by needing explanation, but a real critique nonetheless. It could have been equally used as counterpoint to the opposite cliché, "America = moral, Europe = decadent", with just the right spin.

The thing is, if we are to defend with either of those paradigms, we must do so in an informed manner, not as an "article of faith".