Guess what, ladies, we're ruining this country! [Archive]

06-27-1999, 02:38 AM

I'm so furious I could spit. Here is the URL for a web site called "Father's Manifesto" http://members.easyspace.com/fathers/ that not only bashes the feminist movement of the last 30 years, but women in general. Did you know that women really are worse drivers than men? Women have ruined the public education system? Women can't do math (ok, so I'm no good at math, and even said that on my own web page, but I know plenty of women who are)? Never should have gotten the vote because they aren't smart enough to understand politics? That it takes 14 men in the work place to make up for the unproductiveness of one woman? I could go on and on, but my stomach is already churning and the bile is burning the back of my throat.

The thing that really gripes me is that I could write to these bozos and talk about how I have gotten fewer speeding tickets and had fewer accidents than my husband, I'm a better speller and reader than my husband and father, unlike one of the (few) men in my office I've never fallen asleep at my computer with porn up on the screen, but they would just respond that all of these mens' short comings are the fault of women; the women that raised them, the women that taught them, the women that hired them and supervise them. We're damned if we do, damned if we don't, damned for what we never did.

I'm angry, but I feel so impotent. These people want to do away with women's right to vote, for pity's sake. They want women to stay home, pregnant yes, barefoot, probably. Women spend too much of men's money on shoes anyway, I'm sure. See what happens when they get jobs? They buy shoes.

These guys probably think the Taliban in Afghanistan have the right idea. I'm not being facetious. This site is as ugly and hateful as the WhitesOnly page I stumbled onto a couple weeks ago, or the GodHatesFags page everyone talks about. The site even says women don't deserve Equal Protection, that this is strictly for black males and was wrongly misapplied to women. Excuse me, I'm going to vomit now.

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"I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it," Jack Handy

06-27-1999, 10:47 AM

06-27-1999, 01:13 PM

Im a guy & I learned to do all the housework, cleaning, laundry, just about anything a woman would be expected to do. This is sort of an outgrowth of being in the 70s when woman's lib came henceforth. Now it's more confusing, do women want to be equal or do they want to be protected?

Judge Judy made a point on her show once that if women want equal rights then they must accept that men can hit them.

06-27-1999, 01:42 PM

Handy, Equal Protection is about protection from discrimination, not getting hit. This is what the Father's Manifesto says about that:

It is anti-male bias to assert that males and females are "equal". Supreme Court Justice Burger, after almost a century in which the term "equal protection" had clearly applied only to the release of slaves and giving male slaves the vote, inexplicibly applied it to females in Reed v. Reed in November 22, 1971 with "[it is] DISCRIMINATION PROHIBITED BY AND THEREFORE VIOLATIVE OF THE EQUAL PROTECTION CLAUSE OF THE FOURTEENTH AMENDMENT."

The Father's Manifesto asserts that women don't deserve protection from discrimination because they ARE NOT equal.

I don't want special considerations just because I'm a woman. I want to be recognized as being equal. I want to vote, do my job, decide what I want to do with my future, and not be told that it's my sole purpose in life to make babies and keep a nice house so my husband will be pleased with me. I prefer he be pleased with me because I help make us a good living, make good decisions, and can kick ass when we watch Win Ben Stein's Money.

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"I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it," Jack Handy

06-27-1999, 01:51 PM

GR8Kat, when the revolution comes, I'll be ready. I do dishes, back-rubs, and windows.
I can do diapers, either 3 or 4 cornered, with either 1 or 2 pins. I am capable of shutting up for hours at a time.
Try to remember this when the shooting starts, please!

[shakes head] that's not what I'm talking about, though. I don't want to overthrow men, I want to be acknowledged as an equal partner. It's easy to take for granted that women are already, but then when you're slapped in the face with a site like this that gathers statics that "prove" that the feminist movement is responsible for increases in men's deaths due to coronary heart disease, and decreases in national geometry scores, it's awfully disheartening.

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"I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it," Jack Handy

06-27-1999, 02:39 PM

MADD and DUI laws also (according to the Father's Manifesto) lead to an increase in automobile fatalities as drunk men are less likely to cause wrecks than sober women.

Who should wash dishes or change diapers is NOT what this web site is about. I put this under BBQ pit and not GD forum because I don't want to debate the subject, I want to rant, rave, tear my hair, rend my clothing, and basically be the irrational female that I am ;)

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"I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it," Jack Handy

06-27-1999, 03:23 PM

You just rant and rave to your heart's content. Don't worry your pretty head about these twits, however. < eg > They are loons who couldn't carry a cogent argument in a bushel basket (with two women to help them figure out how to load it).

I would guess that they are basically harmless (due to their overwhelming incompetence). What angers me about them is that they (or their ilk) may come to be seen as genuine representatives of the very serious issue of fathers and parental rights. That is an issue that has been screwed up in many local and state courts, but it has a lot of thorns and needs to be addressed intelligently. Turning these morons loose on the issue would pretty much guarantee that no rational decision could be made.

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Tom~

06-27-1999, 05:31 PM

GR8Kat, I'm sorry. Bad Joke.
I do understand, though. When I was in the Air Force, females that train along with me and were my equal in EVERY sense of the word were pulled of the flight line one by one and assigned secretarial duties to various colonels and generals. Outside the military, in my line of work(security)any female that isn't "friendly" to her co-workers is instantly labeled a lesbian.
Are women's restrooms soundproofed? I think you go in groups for a group primal scream sometimes. How the HELL do you put up with us?

06-27-1999, 07:40 PM

Yep, some people are just dumb...Did you see the Ladies' Manifesto page (linked off of the FM page)? I thought that it was disturbing to see that women subscribe to this line of thinking. Although, I rather enjoyed some of the guy's examples (no grasp of geometry = women have no right to vote)... Ah well, as a future engineer/mathematician I laugh at the notion that women can't do math.

Keep up the good work, ladies, 'cause no one's going to take care of you in this world.

06-28-1999, 10:52 AM

Judge Judy made a point on her show once that if women want equal rights then they must accept that men can hit them.

Unless Judge Judy was specifically referring to men hitting them back*, then she's on crack. I don't have to accept that anyone, male or female, can hit me; Jane Public shouldn't have to either.

* - in reference to the idea that if a woman hits a man, she has no business using the "You can't hit me, I'm just a girl!" bit...

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~jon

06-28-1999, 04:17 PM

My favorite:

"Males as a group pay more than 100% of federal taxes."

And who sucks at math?

06-28-1999, 06:54 PM

Stoidela...

Ahem..{BLUSH}..thank you

06-28-1999, 07:55 PM

Stoidela--

If you are referring to Slythe in the plural, I think I've seen his picture on a web site, right next to the woman with the two champagne bottles...

06-29-1999, 12:56 AM

Slythe:

[QUOTE]How the HELL do you put up with us?[QUOTE]

We like your penises.

;)

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Stoidela

Don't meddle in the affairs of dragons, cuz, like, you're crunchy
and taste good with ketchup.

06-29-1999, 02:10 PM

I knew I was just torturing myself, but I had to check out this Father's Manifesto website! I was torn (figuratively) between laughter (more than 100%, indeed!) and tears (95% of all rapes reported are false!) I couldn't check it out for too long because it was really pissing me off, and then it flashed on me (not an ephiphany, but a flash) that anger is wasted on these freaks (just another sign of my feminine, emotional nature). One of my cardinal rules is NEVER to allow the Religious Reich to provoke me - it's the equivalent of flipping off someone who cut you off in traffic-it doesn't matter to them, and it makes you more angry for having done it...

06-29-1999, 05:15 PM

Bwaaaahhhhhh haaaa haaa! That site is hilarious!

What I want to know is why they have a picture of someone holding a rubber chicken.

I saw a book in Barnes &Noble that argue that all men should pay a higher tax because men commit all of the crimes. Not quite as nutty as this, but along the same lines.

06-29-1999, 07:27 PM

Re: The Ladies Manifesto page! How too fuckin' Victorian (Ladies! and the page itself is all pink and mauve with little cupids and all). It's even funnier than the Father's Manifesto, because the gal that writes it is apparently right next door to being an illiterate (mistress of the run-on sentence, dangling participle, misspelled epithet), but believes she is writing truly deathless opinions! All of ten people have signed the guestbook, and four of them are negative comments. I don't think we need to worry about a repeal of the 19th amendment any time soon (by the way check out the petition on the Father's page to accomplish just this goal-it has about 40 signatures-somehow, I think that may be a problem for them...)

06-29-1999, 08:26 PM

The whole thing just makes me heartsick. And one of the things that amazes me is that, if you click on the Repeal the 19th Amendment link, you see a letter from a woman who agrees it should be repealed. She writes that women vote based on whatever their hormones tell them at the moment, and that we need to go back to a single vote per household because husbands and wives vote the opposite on issues and cancel each other out. I don't have a problem with families discussing how they wish to vote, but the idea that only men should get the vote so that, in the case of disagreement, the final decision of the vote is made by the one person, and only that person's voice will be heard because only his is worth hearing, is ridiculous.

Sorry for the run on sentences, but I've got a lot of thoughts I want to cram into each sentence.

I grew up in a two-parent household and I always thought they had an equal partnership. My mom actually handled most of the family finances, kept the books and paid the bills. I never saw dad supervise her over her shoulder, double check her figures, or do anything that showed her didn't trust her math or decision making abilities. When he became too disabled to work, she went back to college and got a job. Would the ladies of the Ladies' Manifesto site be willing or able to do that? Math is hard and driving is scary! Thinking hurts, the man is supposed to do all that!

To me, feminism has always been about the right to make choices. Women should be allowed to choose whether they want to stay at home or work, be mothers or not, drive or not. Men should have the same choices. And when men and women choose their mates, they need to choose ones whose choices are compatible with theirs. Now if someone changes their mind during the relationship... well, I personally don't think it's fair to switch horses in midstream. My husband accepts that someday I may not physically be able to work. That's something we have to deal with. Hopefully, many decades down the line. However, if tomorrow he decides work sucks and he'd rather watch tv, we'd be royally screwed and I don't think that would be fair to either of us. Especially since we'd lose the satellite dish and he couldn't watch tv unless he went back to work, but I digress.

I resent the idea that one portion of the population can pursue their goals, careers, and dreams because it's their God given right because of that little hunk of flesh between their legs, while the other portion can pursue their goals, careers, and dreams as long as it's ok with the first portion, and preferably if these goals, etc., involve keeping house and making babies, since that's all they're good for anyway. I don't have a problem with women who stay home to raise families, I just resent the idea of being born into a box where that's all that's expected or allowed of me.

This lady who wrote about repealing the 19th amendment, I think her name is Alia, went on to emphasize that she supports making it a one-vote-per-household process, so that, theoretically, if 2 lesbians lived together, they would still have just one vote, but they would have the vote. How progressive! So by getting married, women would be sacrificing their voice. The man could silence it if he chooses. I ache when I read that.

I wish I hadn't posted that link in my OP, because I can't resist the temptation to go back there and read more, even though it makes me sick. It's like a train wreck, horrible but morbidly fascinating.

I wonder... what would happen... if ... someone e-mailed this thread to one or the other or both sites......

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"I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it," Jack Handy

06-30-1999, 11:18 AM

Check out my comments in their guestbook on the "Ladies" page. The gal who maintains the page answered me back, and she just reinforces all the negatives there are about the Christian Reich- that they're ignorant, intolerant and almost rabid. She wrote that I'm selfish because I don't want kids, I've been educated in a "Fembot" education system, and that's why I am the way I am (wrong-I went to Catholic school-I can't imagine any system more traditional and patriarchal than that!), etc.. It's like you said, Gr8Kat- visiting these sites is scarily fascinating, like a train wreck, but as silly as these people are, I think it's important to be aware of them.

06-30-1999, 02:08 PM

I dropped my two cents in her lap as well.

It leaves me utterly baffled, I must admit.

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Stoidela

Don't meddle in the affairs of dragons, cuz, like, you're crunchy
and taste good with ketchup.

06-30-1999, 02:12 PM

I dropped mine in as well. I wanted to start screaming at my computer - people that stupid make me crazy.

06-30-1999, 02:29 PM

hmmm, we could just move this thread into the ladies' manifesto guestbook. Afterall, this Lynda seems to have a burning desire to respond to all of the negative posts ;-)

She could probably use the diversion...

Ursel (only half in jest)

06-30-1999, 02:37 PM

I think it's a laugh riot that out of thirteen "guests", 5 comments are negative, 3 are positive, 2 are incoherent, and the other 3 are this wacked out babe's own flame throwing ON HER OWN PAGE! Boy, doesn't she freak out big time if you disagree with her AT ALL- it would be pretty freakin' funny, except SHE BELIEVES THIS STUFF. I can only imagine the kind of childhood she had. By the way, thanks for entering your comments in her guestbook (and it is a shitty guestbook, it unformatted all my nice paragraphs, making my comments look as illiterate as "Lynda's"). I think we should get all our friends and neighbors to torch her, but then it isn't really sportin' to have a battle of wits with an unarmed woman...

06-30-1999, 03:15 PM

Here is the URL to one of my favorite (not updated often enough, though) pages: http://www2.cybercities.com/s/shanmonster/witch/

Not a Wicca or Neo-pagan page, but rather about the genocide (or gynocide) waged against women for being the inferior, wicked sex. I'd like to think that society as a whole isn't stupid enough to return to these days, but it frightens me that even a few people out there could still hold such beliefs; ie, that women are inherently evil and need to be controlled. The Ladies' Manifesto page doesn't stress this point much (surprise), but the Fathers' Manifesto page comes right out and says that women are vicious, lying, murdering whores. Not just feminists, but women in general are more evil and conniving than men. More women cheat than men, abuse or kill their spouses and children than men, will lie about abuse and rape to put men in jail, etc., etc. And this really, really riles me because it's just set up to put women on the defensive so they point fingers back at men. But I'm not anti-man. I don't want to start spouting off about the evils of men because my father and husband never did any of the things on the list any more than my mother and I have. Again, it makes me heartsick.

On a side note, I don't mind the term "Lady" because it's about the only term of respect left for women that hasn't been degraded or vulgarized. Consider Madame (runs a whore house), Mistress (a married man's affair on the side), Governess (nanny), Queen (man who dresses as a woman), Dame (slang that about equals "broad"). Compare Sir, Master, Governor, King, etc. "Mrs." used to be an abbreviation for Mistress, but because of the negative connotations, it's been bastardized to "Missus." It doesn't even stand for a real word anymore. I don't have a problem with Lady (male equivalent = Lord). Better than bitch or ho.

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"I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it," Jack Handy

06-30-1999, 04:22 PM

I don't hate men either - in fact, I generally get along better with guys, and I have a husband who could be the model for The Sensitive,Manly Supportive Guy.

These people are fringe loonies with major inferiority complexes, the sort of folks who are actually scared to see a women in a doctor's coat, or probably even a person of color in a suit, because it threatens their Neanderthal worldview. The "ladies" part just cracked me up within the neo-Victorian context of the web page design. It's the sort of place where they still might call homesexuality "The Love That Dare Not Speak Its' Name"...

06-30-1999, 06:00 PM

that's homosexuality, by the by...

06-30-1999, 06:48 PM

I do like the comment that it takes 14 men to make up for the unproductiveness of 1 woman. I mean, if you assume that, at the worst, a person just sits at their desk twiddling their thumbs all day, then it should take just 1 person to make up that 1 person's work. So what does it say about the men that it takes 14 of them to make up this work? How much did they expect that poor woman to do?? Just a thought :)

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"I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it," Jack Handy

06-30-1999, 07:09 PM

Hey Falcon and Stoidela, did you get flamed back yet from the Manifesto chick?- she's so rabid she's totally incoherent- laugh riot! It's like she can't resist the challenge to get in your face, and she is so pathetic.

06-30-1999, 08:02 PM

Yep alex, I did. And did you get the message from that guy? You know, this whole thing makes me sick. And I met a woman tonight online who agreed with them, and told me that the idea that women make less than men is a myth. *sigh*

06-30-1999, 11:25 PM

So you're selfish for not wanting children?

I remember reading an editorial in Time magazine several years ago by a woman who didn't want children. I can't remember her exact reasons why but she went through a whole list of them. A few weeks later, Time published Letters to the Editor by women attacking the author of the editorial. They lit into her for being selfish and immature and an all-around terrible person.

Here's my question: If women who don't want children are so selfish, immature, and terrible, why do these people want them to breed??

Personally, I think it takes alot of intelligence and maturity to view yourself objectively enough to say "Maybe I should not have a child."

I have a feeling that this type of anti-female opinion is going to become more prominent. I don't believe the misogynists are going to give up the fight graciously. This sort of hate will become especially loud if the economy gets bad because people will want to blame people of a different sex or race as opposed to taking a long hard look at the real problems. As long as we're fighting with each other, we're pretty neutralized and immobile.

I guess you can look at that website as the death-throes of a threatened group of people. If they didn't feel threatened, they wouldn't lash back so vehemently.

06-30-1999, 11:40 PM

I know- what a selfish non breeding bitch I am-damn me for thinking-and by the way, if I had any grasp of math at all, I'd know there was no no population overflow on this planet-the feminists put that idea in my head-along with the hole in the ozone, child sexual abuse by men, etc.-Trailer Apes, my seatmate at work called this lot, and she was so right...

07-01-1999, 12:34 AM

You know, Ursel suggested (half kidding) that this whole thread be sent to the Ladies Manifesto URL- and personally I think that would be great fun. But as others have stated, this is so disheartening- that people should voice these ideas on the eve of the 21st Century. Can these people really hate and fear modern women so much that they rewrite history? I had an email earlier that said Marie Curie was basically a secretary who extorted her dying husband's promise to name her as the discoverer of radium on his deathbed- what did she threaten him with, I wonder - death? On top of that, Pierre Curie happened to be killed instantly in a street accident, so WHAT death bed? I won't even address what he said about Margaret Mead- and he'd never heard of Jane Goodall- I guess the religious Reich doesn't dig National Geographic Specials. I think that these people are of the same sort that still contend that all those ovens in Poland were smelting works and industrial bakeries...Ja Wohl! Labor (and child rearing) Liberates!

07-01-1999, 12:42 AM

Gasp! Sigh! Snoozle! I am bad at math! That was disheartening :( I'm tired of being a flunky for the state and decided I'd like to get paid for drawing and playing with the computer, so I'm attempting to enroll in school to study Visual Communications... but I did so horrendous in the math portion of the placement test, they'll probably want to send me back to the 5th grade before they accept me. I hope I can learn... I hope my 25 year old brain hasn't atrophied to the point where it would be a waste of time to try.

But, my point is, just cuz I suck doesn't mean I think all women do. So there.

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"I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it," Jack Handy

07-01-1999, 12:44 AM

I meant to say, "suck at math." Please don't read any more into it than there is. Thanks :)

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"I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it," Jack Handy

07-01-1999, 12:51 AM

Check out the "Ladies" page- some nice old Christian dude professor flamed her BIGTIME, but apparently, since he's both a man and a self-professed Christian, she answered him back in private! I guess OUR "ignorance" just gets displayed in the guestbook... And I promise myself,in the future, no matter how tempting it is to delve into huge vats of stupidity, I will NOT FOLLOW THAT THREAD- will not, will not, will not...

07-01-1999, 01:02 AM

Gr8Kat, don't go there!-Don't beat yourself up- I sucked in math for years, but I scored in the upper 1% for English on my SATs when I was a youngster- so I went with my strengths- and you know, now that I'm older, and have had several jobs where math apptitude is essential, you adapt, and you learn- I'm great in math now, and I even realize that there IS a reason for Algebra other than letting "a" equal something! Don't despair! It isn't all "two cows left Detroit at 10:45, etc, etc." Take a tutorial class with one of these new private tutorial places that have popped up- they're not all that expensive (you can even get financial aid), and it will help you. Don't give up!

07-01-1999, 01:12 AM

Actually, I'm rather proud to say that I finished the reading and writing portions before anyone else with mucho time to spare. That was kind of a boost after the math devastation. But... we were told we could pick which math test to take, so I started taking the elementary algebra test since I seem to remember passing it once in high school, and was horrified that nothing made sense. I finally gave up and switched to rudimentary math, but it was too late. I only got halfway through it when time was up. But... I didn't cry ;)

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"I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it," Jack Handy

07-01-1999, 01:21 AM

To Gr8Kat: we southern gentlemen have been calling you ladies "Miz" long before "Ms." came along. All kidding aside, I am proud to point out that Tennessee was the deciding vote in passing the 19th Ammendment. Anybody who thinks that recognizing the citizenship of a woman makes it OK for a man to hit her is a damned idiot. Obviously, there are quite a few idiots out there...as evidenced by the absurd and hateful sites you folks are talking about. Try not to let them get to you. I believe that Life is indeed a joke.
...but we should always strive to make it a GOOD joke.

"I'm not denyin' the women are foolish: God Almighty made 'em to match the men."
-- George Eliot

"The first time Adam had a chance he laid the blame on woman."
-- Nancy Astor

"Where did your Christ come from?...From God and a woman. Man had nothing to do with him."
-- Sojourner Truth

07-01-1999, 01:29 AM

Same for me with the SATs-first 1% in English, bottom 10% in Math. But like I said, this is not genetically ordained- I sucked in Math because I wasn't interested then- but now I am, and I'm great at that stuff now. Probably people will scoff at this evidence of my math ability, but I worked as the shop foreperson at a movie studio, and I had to figure out how many gallons of paint, varnish, etc would be needed for a set-THATS when you see math in action! And I didn't have to call my dad or Jaime Espinosa for help!

07-01-1999, 01:31 AM

P.S. My Mom was a math teacher, a darn good one. But as her son, I struggled with that accursed subject. Go figure. Please, because I can't.

07-01-1999, 04:14 AM

She deleted everything that was negative. I was sorry tohave missed the post from the Christian man...that would have been interesting.

I say we all just keep going after her in the guestbook til she gets so frustrated she shuts it down altogether. Pound her! Pound her!

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Stoidela

Don't meddle in the affairs of dragons, cuz, like, you're crunchy
and taste good with ketchup.

07-01-1999, 11:28 AM

The post from the professor was great- he told her she wouldn't recognize the Saviour if he hit her in the eye with a lightning bolt, and that by her reasoning Mother Theresa was a whore because she wasn't at home having babies!

07-01-1999, 01:15 PM

homesexuality

a.k.a. Homeschool Sex Education Class

07-01-1999, 01:23 PM

Hey I corrected my spelling error! But that's pretty funny anyway!

07-01-1999, 03:38 PM

Hell, she's pruned her page again, and after I posted something that I thought was really smart and semi-respectful. So I posted something else. Wanna read it before it gets deleted too?

Lynda, I had another thought... just out of morbid curiosity, how many black scientists, engineers, doctors, inventors, etc., can you name that have made a lasting impact on society? Probably about as many as you can women, hmm? Does that mean that blacks are also inferior to and should be subjugated by superior white males? Here's another site that may be of interest to you; it goes to great detail about why blacks are inferior, evil, and need to be controlled, and backs it up with legal cites, Bible stories, and statistics. They view blacks as poorly as you and the Father's Manifesto view women. Happy reading! www.whitesonly.net

Here's my semi-respectful, already deleted message:

Lynda, I'm very disappointed to see that you deleted messages from your guest book, particularly those from a very wise Christian father. Are you not allowed to disagree with a man? Is that why you had to delete his words rather than refute them? I find it very odd to read on your page that equalists are obsessed with their genitals. It seems to me that those who wish to reinforce gender stereotypes are the ones more concerned with genitals. Personally, I just want to get my job done and help provide for my family so we can live comfortably. Mostly, I just want to live my life without it being dictated by my gender. I have dreams and goals that involve making life better for both my husband and me. I resent strangers telling me I'm not smart enough or capable enough to achieve this based soley on my gender. My husband and mother think I can, my father (God rest his soul) thought I could, why should I listen to strangers tell me otherwise? How can you presume to know what's better for me than they do? How can you presume to know better than me what is in my heart and mind? And how can you presume to tell me that what is or isn't between my legs is more important? Life is about choices, for men and women both. You made yours and you have the right to be respected for it. The rest of us have made ours and we ask the same.

Oh well. I can't preach to her, so I'll preach to the choir :)

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"I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it," Jack Handy

07-01-1999, 03:50 PM

Yeah, I think we've had all the fun we're going to be allowed to have with the Stepford Wives homepage- ah well, it was fun while it lasted...

07-01-1999, 07:10 PM

She's moved all the stuff she doesn't like to a page called "Feminist hatemail". Apparantly, anything anyone says in disagreement with her constitutes hatemail.

sigh...

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Stoidela

******Boycott shampoo! Demand REAL poo!******

07-01-1999, 09:10 PM

When are we all going to come to the realization that some people are just assholes? Some of these assholes are men, some are women, some are black, some are white, some are fat, some are thin, some are tall and some are short, some are gay, some are straight. Don't let them get to you. This shadowy "they" isn't hurting anything, you're just allowing them to piss you off. To sit back and say some type of asshole is ruining the country is callow and counterproductive. Almost as counterproductive as it is to whine about the asshole who said it in the first place. Shake it off and go on with your life. If they get really annoying give them the finger... As long as they are only bitching then what do you gain by having a hissy?

Oh, the only exceptions to this Asshole Rule of Thumb (as stated above)is that nearly all consultants are assholes, interesting.

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PS Have a nice day.

07-02-1999, 06:08 PM

I really understand how several of you want to pound this nitwit's site, but really -you're just encouraging them. You're making them feel important, that they're being taken seriously. I know it's frustrating, but these are the kind of people you can't reason with.

And how do they think they can repeal the 19th Amendment? "Guess who would get to vote on that, you women-hating pinhead's - WE WOULD."

[b]Gr8kat[/]: 25 is not past that math-learning curve. 42 is well past it, I know that, but not 25. You can do it.

07-02-1999, 06:35 PM

Thanks, aseymayo. I try to bear in mind, too, that it has been eight years since I took any kind of a math course. I'm just a little (or a lot) rusty, but I learned algebra once, I can learn it again :)

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"I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it," Jack Handy

07-02-1999, 06:58 PM

I agree wholeheartedly that there are some real dangers in this world that must be acted upon... This, however, is not one of them. Repeal of the 19th Amendment? Puhleez! This just go to show that their "Fathers' Manifesto" site is run by a a pathetic little man who gets his jollies by spanking his Vienna Sausage sized weenie at the thought of pissing you, and others like you, off. Send him an e-mail, tell him he is an asshole then block him from responding to your e-mail. You get the last word and, by the playground logic that I live my life by, you win... Save your energy for the real threats.

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PS Have a nice day.

07-02-1999, 07:57 PM

This stuff is terrible. Look at this one from http://fathers.ourfamily.com/discmen.htm

Twenty One Indicators of Systemic Discrimination Against Men

The American woman by the 1960s lived in the nation with the world's highest
standard of living and owned 65% of the wealth in that nation.
Feminists nonetheless felt "victimized" and convinced us that women are
"discriminated against".
Never have they been required to nor been able to produce a shred of statistical
evidence to back up that claim.
Twenty one key statistical indicators each reveal that men have been and are
being systematically discriminated against by government fiat.
Men pay 115% of federal taxes yet women constitute 11.5% more of the vote,
preventing men from presenting their counterclaim in the media, nor even to
government.

1.WEALTH: Women hold 65% of the country's wealth [Fortune Magazine]
2.CHILD CUSTODY: Women receive custody of 92% of the children of divorce and illegitimacy,
and men only 4%. [Department of Health & Human Services]
3.INCOME: Men constitute 60% of workplace hours, work longer hours, work harder, and are
more qualified, rarely file sexual discrimination or harassment lawsuits or take pregnancy leave,
yet earn only 42% more than women [Dept. Labor]
4.SUICIDE: Men's suicide rate is 4.6 times higher than women's [Dept. Health & Human Services
-- 26,710 males vs 5,700 females]
5.LIFE EXPECTANCY: Men's life expectancy is seven (7) years shorter than women's [National
Center for Health Statistics -- males 72.3 yrs vs females 79 yrs] yet receive only 35% of
government expenditures for health care and medical costs.
6.AFFIRMATIVE ACTION: Men are discriminated against BY DESIGN through affirmative
action.
7.FEDERAL TAXES: Men pay 115% of federal income taxes [ menpy115.htm]
8.VOTE: There are 11.1% more female voters than male voters SO the male vote has little
influence on how the male tax dollar is spent.
9.WAR: Men, not women, fight and die in battle [Dept. Defense -- Vietnam Casualties 47,369 men
vs 74 women] while women sue the taxpayer when they have their butt pinched.
10.WORKPLACE FATALITIES: Men account for more than 95% of workplace fatalities.
11.MURDER: Men are murdered at a rate almost 5 times that of women [Dept. Health & Human
Services -- 26,710 men vs 5,700 women]
12.JURY BIAS: Women are acquitted of spousal murder at a rate 9 times that of men [Bureau Justice
Statistics -- 1.4% of men vs 12.9% of women]
13.COURT BIAS: Men are sentenced 2.8 times longer than women for spousal murder [Bureau
Justice Statistics -- men at 17 years vs women at 6 years]
14.JUSTICE SYSTEM BIAS: Fathers are 97% of "child support" collections prosecutions [Census
Bureau]
15.WELFARE: Men are the recipients of less than 10% of all welfare disbursements.
16.SECONDARY EDUCATION: Why should feminists demand that schools be gender balanced?.
The public education establishment has been a major feminist power base since the 1960's, and
now men are only 45% of all college admissions.
17.HIGHER EDUCATION: There are more than 200 all-female colleges for women and now not
one single all-male college for men. 5.8% fewer men than women are enrolled in 4 year
colleges, even though two thirds of those who score higher than 550 in SAT Math are males. In
1993 only 44.5% of college enrollment were men, and that figure has declined since then. Only
45.8% of of bachelor's degrees were conferred to men in 1992, even though 98.2% of the top
fiftieth percentile of the GRE are men, and ZERO PERCENT of American high school girls
correctly answered 28 out of 67 TIMSS advanced math questions. Only 38.4% of private 4 year
college students were men as of 1990, and this figure has declined since then.
18.LEGAL SYSTEM BIAS: 96% of physical altercations resulting in injury to a spouse occurs
AFTER the date of separation. [Read: spousal abuse laws that pretend that husbands are
dangerous discriminate against husbands when we know that only a very small percent of
domestic violence is associated with them]. [Chadwick and Heaton, "Statistical Handbook of the
American Family"]
19.DOMESTIC VIOLENCE: 58% of the above mentioned physical altercations are initiated by the
female. [Read: despite the fact we discriminate against husbands in protective orders, women
still cause more than half of domestic altercations. It is as if they know they can get away with it].
[ibid.]
20.CHILD VIOLENCE: Mothers commit 55% of child murders and biological fathers commit 6%,
while children are systematically removed from the custody of the biological fathers who are
their most effective protectors.
21.FAMILY BREAKDOWN: The US Surgeon General notes that divorce is more harmful to a man's
health than smoking tobacco, yet as much as $1.3 Trillion of federal expenditures do little else
than undermine family stability.

07-02-1999, 08:01 PM

They're even slamming Madame Curie
Take a look at this history rewrite
http://fathers.ourfamily.com/curie.htm

For almost a century, feminists have held up Madame Curie as
such a paragon of feminine accomplishments that who Pierre
Curie is, that he hired her as a laboratory assistant, that
Professor Henri Becquerel received half the Nobel Prize, that
Madame Curie received only a quarter of the Nobel Prize, that
Pierre was so sick from his experiments with radiation that he
couldn't stand long enough to accept the prize, are all forgotten.

(the rest of this post has been snipped for copyright reasons-Moderator)

[Note: This message has been edited by Lynn Bodoni]

07-02-1999, 10:09 PM

Susan, I read some of what you reprinted from that site and busted out laughing. I couldn't help it.

3.INCOME: Men constitute 60% of workplace hours, work longer hours, work harder, and are more qualified, rarely file sexual discrimination or harassment lawsuits or take pregnancy leave, yet earn only 42% more than women [Dept. Labor]

Hmm...men don't file for sexual discrimination? Maybe because they're doing the harrassing in the first place? And they never file for pregnancy leave? How the hell could they? And they *only* earn 42% more than me? Awww, the poor things. Somehow I can't feel sorry for them, considering I barely make enough to live on. < shrug >

Sorry, I just needed to point out this idiocy to someone who'd understand, like y'all. I'd write to them, but I don't feel like getting placed on the "feminist hatemail" feedback site more than once.... ;)

07-02-1999, 10:27 PM

Aren't they a hoot!

"And they *only* earn 42% more than me? Awww, the poor things. Somehow I can't feel sorry for them, considering I barely make enough to live on. < shrug >"

What the heck do they want, anyway?

07-03-1999, 12:42 AM

ducks,

It's just so hurtful to be slapped in the face with something so vicious, and aimed at a fundamental part of your being that you can't change (ie, in this case, gender).

Like cockroaches, this kind of ignorance and hate needs to be stamped out; but, like cockroaches, I'm afraid it will always breed faster than we can keep up.

As for them "only bitching," they are gathering signatures on a petition to repeal the 19th amendment. People do need to be aware of when their rights are threatened.

------------------
"I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it," Jack Handy

07-03-1999, 12:59 AM

Here are a few excerpts from an article that ran in a local paper, the McMinnville News-Register, about a year ago, and I still have it hanging on the wall of my cubicle. It's about a lady who was my typing teacher (and the typing teacher of just about everyone in Willamina, OR) and a personal hero of mine. I was a Sophomore the year computers replaced the typewriters, and while it was hard for everyone to adjust, it is admirable that Mrs. Mitchell not only adjusted but taught another 10 years as well. She is one of these women who are supposedly ruining the public education system:

"Tenacious Typing Teacher Leaves Classroom After 52 Years for Garden," by Paul Daquilante, News-Register

Willamina--When the school bell signals the end of class June 9, Lucille Mitchell will close out her 52nd year of teaching high school typing, shorthand and accounting....

...if she gets bored with [gardening], she plans to volunteer with the school district.

"You've got to stay busy," she said.

...Mitchell, who was hired in the fall of 1946...didn't have children of her own and, after the death of her husband, Donnell, she poured herself into her work.

Over the years, Mitchell has become a mentor not just to her students, but for her peers as well...

"I think she has pulled it off because she believes passionately in what she has done as an educator is in the best interest of students," [Don] Yates [principal] said. "Lucille has had the skills that students need in order to be successful in the workplace." ...

Students often realize Mitchell's influence long after graduation. "Students come back and tell me, 'I hated what you made us do, but thank God you did, because I have this real, real good job,'" Mitchell said...

"She always was gentle," [Sharon] Shenk [secretary/treasurer of the Grand Ronde Community Water District] said. "I never saw her get angry. She didn't even get mad at the boys, when they acted like they couldn't hit a key. She was patient. I like that. I really liked her."...

Mitchell was born and raised in Banks, and graduated from Banks High School...Mitchell attended Pacific University in Forest Grove, where she received her undergraduate degree in business administration. She did graduate work at several universities and colleges, including Linfield, and she received a master's degree from Columbia University in New York City...

"We went from manual to electric typewriters to the ones with memory," Mitchell said. "Now it's the computer age. It's been real interesting. I enjoy this, and I wouldn't go back to the way it once was."

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"I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it," Jack Handy

07-03-1999, 01:01 AM

I forgot to say (Emphasis added).

------------------
"I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it," Jack Handy

07-03-1999, 01:51 AM

From a dear friend of mine:

To Smart Women Everywhere!

1. I'm not offended by all the dumb blonde jokes because I know I'm not dumb... and I also know that I'm not blonde. -Dolly Parton-
2. You see a lot of smart guys with dumb women, but you hardly ever see a smart woman with a dumb guy. -Erica Jong-
3. I want to have children, but my friends scare me. One of my friends told me she was in labor for 36 hours. I don't even want to do anything that feels good for 36 hours. -Rita Rudner-
4. My husband and I are either going to buy a dog or have a child. We can't decide to ruin our carpet or ruin our lives. -Rita Rudner-
5. I've been on so many blind dates, I should get a free dog. -Wendy Liebman-
6. Never lend your car to anyone to whom you have given birth. -Erma Bombeck-
7. If high heels were so wonderful, men would still be wearing them.-Sue Grafton-
8. I'm not going to vacuum 'til Sears makes one you can ride on. -Roseanne Barr-
9. I think-therefore I'm single. -Lizz Winstead-
10. When women are depressed they either eat or go shopping. Men invade another country. -Elayne Boosler-
11. Behind every successful man is a surprised woman. -Maryon Pearson-
12. I base most of my fashion taste on what doesn't itch. -Gilda Radner-
13. In politics, if you want anything said, ask a man; if you want anything done, ask a woman. -Margaret Thatcher-
14. I have yet to hear a man ask for advice on how to combine marriage and a career. -Gloria Steinem-
15. Some of us are becoming the men we wanted to marry. -Gloria Steinem-
16. I never married because there was no need. I have three pets at home which answer the same purpose as a husband. I have a dog which growls every morning, a parrot which swears all afternoon and a cat that comes home late at night. -Marie Corelli-
17. Nagging is the repetition of unpalatable truths. -Baroness Edith Summerskill
18. If men can run the world, why can't they stop wearing neckties? How intelligent is it to start the day by tying a little noose around your neck? -Linda Ellerbee-
19. I am a marvelous housekeeper. Every time I leave a man, I keep his house. -Zsa Zsa Gabor-
20. Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

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"I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it," Jack Handy

07-03-1999, 01:44 PM

Interesting tidbit:

Many studies have shown that of all the various configurations of gender and marital status, the happiest and most long-lived are SINGLE WOMEN and MARRIED MEN (in that order). And the most miserable and short lived are single men and married women.

Kinda blows a whole in a lot of cultural cliches, doesnt' it?

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Stoidela

******Boycott shampoo! Demand REAL poo!******

07-03-1999, 02:09 PM

That would be "hole" <blush>

------------------
Stoidela

******Boycott shampoo! Demand REAL poo!******

07-03-1999, 06:27 PM

I think some of you chicks need to get hip to this group -- Ladies Against Women.

http://www.well.com/user/gail/ladies/index.html

LAW is a group of satiric actor-agitators who like to show up at Phyllis Schlafly appearances and similar social reactionary events. Drop 'em a line and they'll sell you a membership. The membership card, complete with the motto, "I'd Rather Be Ironing," contains a separate signature line for "Husband's Permission" ("not valid without signature of husband, father or clergyman").

07-04-1999, 01:44 AM

Big Iron, that was a cute site :) Thanks for sharing.

I couldn't resist, I e-mailed the Father's Manifesto. I never received a personal e-mail from Lynda, so maybe these guys will blow me off, too. Oh well, that would probably be for the best because they could probably make me cry ;) But here's what I told them:

Your guest book is malfunctioning, so here are my answers to your questions:

1. Comments: Disraeli said there are three kinds of lies: Lies, damn lies, and statistics.

2. How to end fatherlessness: teach more men to be loving, supportive, and wise like my father.

3. Why is the US last in Geometry: I don't know. My math teacher sure couldn't teach geometry, he preferred to spend the class time playing with his computer with his back to the classroom.

Quite a few of your graphics and links aren't working. Would you like me to help you with your page?

TTFN :)
Kat :)
----------
Katheryn L. Saunders
gr8kat1@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/gr8kat1/KatGen/home.htm
Visit my message board at http://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb581247

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"I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it," Jack Handy

07-04-1999, 07:59 AM

Susan, please just use excerpts from the page, or just the URL of the page you're talking about. And check your mailbox, please.

SDStaff Lynn

And I really can't express the way I feel about that webpage.

Lynn

07-05-1999, 08:21 PM

Aaa, the Father's Manifesto folks just responded with: no one analyzes what Disraeli's statement really means, and girls are bad at math.

So I'll just remember what Eleanor Roosevelt said and try to forget what they said.

But to those who've basically said we're wasting our anger on nothing, well, you're partially right, these boneheads are nothing. But you've got to understand, these assholes have basically posted on the WWW for the universe to see that women suck. And this includes me, my sister, my mom, my grandmothers, my friends and co-workers, my teachers, the women on this mb, and every single woman I know, love and respect who's dared to leave the house and enter the real world. That's insulting and painful. And it's worse that there are women who actually agree.

If a black or Jewish person posted about how much http://www.whitesonly.net or http://www.ihr.org/index.html hurt and angered them, would you tell them these people are harmless?

Oh well, as Eleanor said, no one can make you feel inferior without your permission, and as Denis Leary said, life sucks, get a helmet.

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"I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it," Jack Handy

07-05-1999, 11:21 PM

Gr8kat, Adventures in the Land of the Tiny Brained can be infuriating, but I think a better response is laughter. I think laughter and ridicule can be effective tools against aggressive stupidity. And it's more fun than anger.

I also recommend restraint because every time somebody visits the site, it counts as a hit. If they don't get any hits, they might not be able to justify maintaining a site.

07-06-1999, 10:48 AM

I also recommend restraint because every time somebody visits the site, it counts as a hit. If they don't get any hits, they might not be able to justify maintaining a site.

I'd hoped maybe they would have a smart counter that realized it was the same person hitting the site and only count them once. Some people have those, but I guess it was a lot to expect of them to have anything to do with anything "smart."

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"I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it," Jack Handy

07-19-1999, 06:32 PM

while I was on vacation I missed some email, and didn't see the note about that hateful site. They are now bashing single moms and saying that they are responsible for killing their kids.

when are these nuts going to be calmed down? as long as nobody challenges their routine everybody is going to believe what they write.

Any ideas?

Susan

07-19-1999, 06:53 PM

when are these nuts going to be calmed down? as long as nobody challenges their
routine everybody is going to believe what they write.

It actually would appear that no one on this forum at least believes their ideas, so I'm not sure where that particular alarm comes from.

Gr8Kat

08-06-1999, 02:51 PM

Evidentally, there may be some wee bit of cause for alarm. There are women who agree with some of this tripe so much that they are writing books about it, and these books are getting publicity. OK, so far I only know about one book, "What Our Mothers Didn't Tell Us: Why Happiness Eludes the Modern Woman," by Danielle Crittenden, but it has sold over 24,000 copies and is due to be published in paperback next spring. The upshot of the book is, women are unhappy because they're trying to start careers right out of college when they should be getting married and making babies.

A review of this book can be found at:

http://www.hipmama.com/features/critten.html

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"I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it," Jack Handy

Gr8Kat

08-06-1999, 03:18 PM

An excerpt from the review (hopefully this is short enough not to violate any copyright laws):

Why bother, you may wonder, if it's so outrageously faulty? Because Crittenden can't be safely ignored. Her ideas are validated by their regular appearances on the op-ed pages of the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times, and her book has been excerpted in papers across the country. Here in Chicago the Sun-Times ran several 2,000-word segments. The book has sold at least 24,000
copies and is due to be published in paperback next March.

Yet I could find only two critical reviews in newspapers, by Susan Reimer of the Baltimore Sun and Margery Eagan of the Boston Herald. Both were excellent essays that were, unfortunately, far too short to expose the book as the utter tripe it is. And both pieces were no doubt overshadowed by George Will's nationally syndicated column recommending that two copies of Crittenden's book "be given as wedding presents to every couple."

That sounds to me like a lot of publicity. Not just a band of fruitcakes with a couple of websites, but someone who has taken it upon herself to be some kind of spokeswoman (or "spokesman" if "spokeswoman" is too feminist) for the anti-feminist movement and is garnering national attention. As the article says:

...Crittenden remains a legitimate source for media outlets to call on when they need a conservative voice or quote. It would be bad enough if Crittenden were an isolated voice, but she isn't. She's the editor of the Women's Quarterly, a journal of "women's (not wymyn's!) writing" published by the Independent Women's Forum, a conservative Republican antifeminist political group whose power is growing.

I'm alarmed.

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"I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it," Jack Handy

Gr8Kat

08-06-1999, 07:52 PM

I know at this point I'm just talking to myself, but one of the things that continues to boggle my mind is the fact that these people who claim women shouldn't work outside the home totally ignore the concept of a family business. I know of a lot of businesses that are run jointly by a husband and wife, including my own family's businesses. In my lifetime, my father was always self-employed, never worked for anyone else, and my mom was always his partner and assistant. It would have cost MONEY to hire anyone else to do the work she did, so I guess some people might bristle at the idea that he was exploiting her for cheap labor, but I never saw it that way (not until about 30 seconds ago when I wrote that line). So far as I could tell, she was an equal partner in making decisions and all the behind-the-scene stuff, and assisted on the job sight, first at the dairy milking cows, washing milk jugs, transporting milk cans to the creamery, building calf pens--nothing "girlie" about any of these jobs--and keeping the dairy's books. When the family left the dairy business and dad bought his own gas station, she was there pumping gas along side him, as well as stocking shelves, washing windshields, cashiering, going to the bank in the afternoons, and again keeping the books.

And I don't think my sister and I suffered for it. Back when they had the dairy, they could take us to work with them. We spent our days looking for kittens in the barn, "helping" milk the cows by opening and closing "stantions" (sp?), running around in the fields; good, wholesome fun :) A gas station is a wee bit more dangerous than a farm, what with all the moving vehicles and combustibles, but we had a live-in grandmother and mom usually came home a couple hours after we got home from school.

My point is, we weren't unique. Our neighbors ran their own convenience store, and again giving jobs to family members was cheaper than hiring outside help. Also the local drug store was run by a husband and wife team, and so was another nearby gas station (our competitor, damn them, but still worth mentioning here), and on and on. I guess maybe the difference is this was a small, rural, farming community (ie, we were all a bunch of hicks who didn't any know better), but I'm still amazed when I read articles from city slickers about how feminists have only recently forced women into the work force, and that women in the work force are hurting their children, their families, morale, productivity, and the economy.

I mean, read Laura Ingals Wilder's books, for pity's sake. And then read the books that tell the stuff she left out. Women worked hard back then, both inside and outside the home (she left school when she was 15 or 16 to be a teacher!). Anyone who longs for the good old days never lived in the good old days.

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"I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it," Jack Handy

matt_mcl

08-09-1999, 11:14 AM

On behalf of my entire gender, please permit me humbly to apologize.

threemae

08-09-1999, 03:56 PM

As long as we're on the debate, let me attract flaq by asking if males and females, if raised in a vaccum, are fundamentaly different. At my school last year 3/21 of the 4.0 GPS for Three Years students were male while 1/8 Colorado Math Leage Top Placers were female.

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"The first thing a man will do for his ideals is lie."

--Joseph A. Schempeter

Falcon

08-09-1999, 04:02 PM

threemae -

I assume you're talking intelligence-wise. (If not, let me know, and I'll adjust the response.) Personally, I'm inclined to say no. The typical stereotype is that men are better at math/science, while women are better at english. However, I'm a hell of a lot better at math than writing, and I'm a woman. There are smart women, and stupid women, and smart men, and stupid men. Your intelligence has nothing inherent to do with your gender. (Or race for that matter, but that's another topic.)

However, do women have more societal pressures than men to lose that intelligence? Yes. And that is where the differences come from, IMO. Not from a fundemental difference between men and women, but from the different expectations in society.

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"And the knowlege that they fear is a weapon to be used against them."
-Neil Peart, RUSH, "The Weapon"

bj0rn

08-10-1999, 06:01 AM

you seem to be forgetting one important fact, men and women are different (fortunately). how different? take for example a group of women and a group of men and compare those two groups. if men want something like getting the beer in a middle of a game its like this: #1: guys, we need beer. #2: i bought it. #3: i got the snack. #4: darn, ok ill get it.
a group of women would do something like this: #1: we are out of snack. #all: (stand up and get it together).

and what is this "toilet culture of yours?"

one difference is: men can only concentrate on one thing at a time, we get cought up in it, so devoted to it we lose time and place.
(i hate watching tv with women, they are constantly changing channels, fact!) *like when im watching a game or whatnot on tv an i suddenly become aware of the fact that someone is trying to get my attention, i snap out of the game only to see my wife looking at me with that look, i ask "what?" and get a "nothing" in return* - quote from a friend of mine.

once in a party i was sitting in the sofa surrounded by women talking about men (bad place, i know now.) they were saying something like, "men are jerks", "so lazy", "you know what my boyfriend did the other day?" etc... i didnt mind much, just kept my mouth shut and halfheartedly listened couse i was like waiting to hear any of them stand up for us men. but no! what did they do? they suddenly stopped talking like this like it was pre-planned and looked at me! asking "what do you have to say about this?". since i wasnt fully focused on what had been going on i couldnt do more than say "ehh..dunno." but thinking about it afterwards (we are good at that :)) i could have said a number of things.

1. never send a man to do a womans job.
2. you are women, we are different.
3. if all men are jerks, why do you date em?
4. what am i doing here?
5. you are all absolutely right, i wholeheartedly agree with out about what you think of the homo sapiens of the male persuation.
6. ehh...dunno!

Shirley Ujest

08-10-1999, 08:45 AM

All I can say about this Father Manifesto thing is one thought.

1) The guy who runs it probably hasn't gotten laid in quite some time and put all his two minutes of sexual energy into looking up bizzare stats to confirm his beliefs that women are not equal. Of course we are not equal. Not to him, Cripes, I wouldn't wear THAT hat in public if I were on crack.

Gr8Kat

08-10-1999, 11:16 AM

bj0rn, you're not getting it. Your post sounds like a stand-up routine ("What is it with women? Why do they all go to the bathroom together? What's up with that? Yadda yadda yadda) Yes, you're right, men and women are different, but I don't think that means they aren't equal.

The reason I keep bringing up my family is, well, ok, there are 2 reasons: 1.) I like to talk about my family and myself (see my homepage for further proof, not that you need it), and 2.) I was brought up in an environment where men and women were equal. At least, as that's the impression that I got and grew up with. View people as individuals and don't judge them outright on their gender.

But the people I'm ranting about don't hold such a view at all. Read the fathers' manifesto and ladies' manifesto pages. They assert: Women are too stupid to understand politics, the constitution, or free enterprise so they shouldn't vote. A drunk man is a better driver than a sober woman so they shouldn't drive. Women lie about rape and abuse so they shouldn't be listened to. Women are more likely to kill children so they shouldn't get custody of their children. Women are lazy, incompetent, and like to make false accusations about male co-workers, so they shouldn't join the workforce. Women and girls are stupid and bring down our national test scores, so they shouldn't teach or go to school.

This isn't about who leaves the toilet seat up or who has to take out the garbage, this is about people who think a woman's place is in the home, married, and having children, that's it. They are lesser human beings who cannot and should not do what men can do. They need men to control them or they will wreck society. And what is even more horrifying is that there are women who agree. "That's right, if my husband let me out of the house once in a while, I probably would cheat on him, divorce him, and murder my babies! I really should just stay home and mop and maybe watch some tv, it's better for all of society that way."

Tell me it's not like that in Iceland.

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"I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it," Jack Handy

Gr8Kat

08-10-1999, 01:59 PM

Maybe the manifesto folks are from another planet, but there are people on this one whose beliefs aren't that far removed. And they are very active in politics and have friends in high places.

Here is an (admittedly one-sided) review of the "Independent Women's Forum": http://wlo.org/iwf/iwf2.html

I'll say it again: I'm alarmed.

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"I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it," Jack Handy

OpalCat

08-11-1999, 12:48 AM

Men are treated no better than lower class citizens. Women are running rampant on wanting more rights for this or that. Essentially, Men are the equivalent of slaves in pre civil war, and Women are their owners. -from the Ladies Manifesto

The thing you guys didn't realize while heaping all this anger on these people is that THEY LIVE ON A DIFFERENT PLANET! We have no way of knowing what it is like for them. So let's not be so quick to judge, ok?

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>^,,^<
"Cluemobile? You've got a pickup..."
OpalCat's site: http://fathom.org/opalcat
The Teeming Millions Homepage: fathom.org/teemingmillions (http://fathom.org/teemingmillions)

bj0rn

08-12-1999, 04:35 AM

gr8kat: i never said men and women arent equal, i just said we are different. i never assumed you would understand it the way you did(dont misunderstand me about this either, please :)). i feel the same way as you about growing up, i grew up in an equal environment. then when i got older, finished school i started working in a kindergarden, and i worked there for 2½ years. it wasnt the job, it was the kids. you can see it in the kids that they need both men and women when they are growing up. being equal doesnt really mean we do everything together, or there is no such thing as a mans job, or a womans job. what it really means is; we have equal rights to do what we want to do, no matter who, where or why.

bj0rn

bj0rn

08-12-1999, 04:44 AM

im not going to tell you what it is like in iceland, because i cant. there isnt a steriotype thingy like that here in iceland.
well, not that im aware of anyway. i belive most people here have gotten out of that way of thinking, although not long ago. we still have problems though in certain areas like wages, but the problem isnt sex related, statistically speaking there are more women working in jobs that arent paid that good, but men doing the same job are paid the same.
so its more of a union problem or thing like that.

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i hate being misunderstood, and i hate hating. - bj0rn

tracer

08-12-1999, 07:56 PM

I'm in favor of every aspect of feminism and/or women's liberation that increases my personal chances of getting laid.

Which is one of the reason's I'm not exactly a Dworkinite.

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I'm not flying fast, just orbiting low.

tracer

08-12-1999, 08:26 PM

So far, my favorite of the pages on the "Father's Manifesto" website is http://fathers.ourfamily.com/dui.htm . It states:

the drinking & driving laws are effective in an adverse way--they contributed to an increase the traffic fatality rate.

... and then proceeds to back this up with statistics showing that overall traffic fatalities went down by 9.7 percent from 1987 to 1997 and overall traffic fatalities per capita went down by 15.9 percent over the same period.

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I'm not flying fast, just orbiting low.

tracer

08-12-1999, 09:03 PM

Oh, just noticed -- if you click on one of the picture links near the top of the main Father's Manifesto webpage (it appears as a broken image in my browser), you get this long sob story about the evils perpetrated against the site's main "Michael" character by Child Protective Services and the police.

I gotta wonder if his story isn't totally made up, and if not, how many details he's leaving out to make him look like such an "innocent victim" of the evil woman-elected anti-family authorities who are all out to get him.

december

08-13-1999, 02:48 PM

Although I do not for a minute believe that men pay more than 100% of income tax, it's not mathematically impossible. Consider the effect of the Earned Income Tax Credit. A substantial number of "tax-payers" get net money BACK from the IRS on their income tax. It is pretty much the negative income tax that George McGovern espoused. The EITC is generally regarded as a part of income tax.

As I recall, when taxes were cut a few years ago, Democrats successfully added to the bill an "EITC tax cut" -- that is, an increase in EITC payments.

Since this money goes to the working poor, it's hard to fault the program...

tracer

08-14-1999, 10:02 PM

december wrote:

Although I do not for a minute believe that men pay more than 100% of income tax, it's not mathematically impossible. Consider the effect of the Earned Income Tax Credit.

This is, in fact, part of why the "Father's Manifesto" page claims that those no-good wimmin folk out there pay negative taxes. However, the page also assumes that every single mother automatically gets a $4800 child care credit, which is a bit dishonest. Parents (single or married) can get a maximum child care credit of either $2400 per child -OR- the amount they actually paid someone else to take care of their kids, whichever is LOWER.

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I'm not flying fast, just orbiting low.

jab1

09-26-2000, 10:05 AM

Originally posted by Gr8Kat
From a dear friend of mine:

To Smart Women Everywhere!

1. I'm not offended by all the dumb blonde jokes because I know I'm not dumb... and I also know that I'm not blonde. -Dolly Parton-I wouldn't know; I never looked at Dolly that high.
8. I'm not going to vacuum 'til Sears makes one you can ride on. -Roseanne Barr-And one that can support her weight.
9. I think-therefore I'm single. -Lizz Winstead-That's MY excuse as well.
10. When women are depressed they either eat or go shopping. Men invade another country. -Elayne Boosler-Or watch sports.
12. I base most of my fashion taste on what doesn't itch. -Gilda Radner-Me too.
16. I never married because there was no need. I have three pets at home which answer the same purpose as a husband. I have a dog which growls every morning, a parrot which swears all afternoon and a cat that comes home late at night. -Marie Corelli-Which one does she sleep with?
18. If men can run the world, why can't they stop wearing neckties? How intelligent is it to start the day by tying a little noose around your neck? -Linda Ellerbee-I haven't worn a necktie since my Daddy's funeral fifteen years ago.
19. I am a marvelous housekeeper. Every time I leave a man, I keep his house. -Zsa Zsa Gabor-Beats working for a living, doesn't it?

Hey, I'm your side, you know that, okay? I just couldn't resist having fun with some of these.