Task Force Liberty

[Si Amigo]

How long before these "patriotic" code names become utter bull. People die in Iraq and they tag a political name name to thier death. Operation Freedom, Task Force Liberty, blah blah blah. You won the election by barely 50 percent of the popular vote, where is your "mandate" to declare everybody who dies for your cause a freedom fighter? And no, I do respect our troops and the fact that most of them did not choose to be there. :mad:

[Little Nemo]

Who is the "you" you're addressing in your post? I didn't win any elections and I've never declared anybody a freedom fighter. If you're attempting to speak to President Bush, he's not a regular poster on this board. I think he was a lurker but he dropped out after we went to subscriptions.

[Squink]

I had to look up Task Force Liberty (http://www.first.army.mil/pao/2005_Articles/Rainbow_Division_TF_Move_Out.htm) to see who they were. Turns out the Rainbow Division is supplying their command, control, logistics and operational base.
You've got to call them something.
Some of the choices, like Camp Cropper for Saddam's prison, are pretty good. Others, a little lame.

[Bryan Ekers]

Why not just call it Operation Wang Chung? I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm sure Project Banarama will go off without a hitch...

[Si Amigo]

Who is the "you" you're addressing in your post? I didn't win any elections and I've never declared anybody a freedom fighter. If you're attempting to speak to President Bush, he's not a regular poster on this board. I think he was a lurker but he dropped out after we went to subscriptions.

You know for a fact that he is not posting here, or one of his co-horts? :wally What does that have to do with the question? :smack:

[Si Amigo]

Why not just call it Operation Wang Chung? I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm sure Project Banarama will go off without a hitch... So why choose a politicallly charged neme? Tha :confused: t's the point.

[Si Amigo]

Before some simpleton marches in, I mispelled name to be neme. Move on to the point pleze . . .

[Si Amigo]

Oh, and TFL is here, today . .http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7897149/ .

[Bryan Ekers]

So why choose a politicallly charged neme? Tha :confused: t's the point.

I'm not sure that using "Freedom" in a name automatically makes it political, or at least not effectively political if its propaganda value is too obvious. Exactly who do you think is being fooled by this sort of clumsy labelling or, more specifically, who is it that was previously opposed to American military actions and changed his/her mind because of what such actions were called?

In any case, there's no shortage of unsmiling, unromanticized casualty reports. They can call it "Operation Hugs and Kisses Under a Framed Painting of George Washington" if they like, but CNN will gladly keep reporting every American who gets a papercut.

[Si Amigo]

I'm not sure that using "Freedom" in a name automatically makes it political, or at least not effectively political if its propaganda value is too obvious. Exactly who do you think is being fooled by this sort of clumsy labelling or, more specifically, who is it that was previously opposed to American military actions and changed his/her mind because of what such actions were called?

In any case, there's no shortage of unsmiling, unromanticized casualty reports. They can call it "Operation Hugs and Kisses Under a Framed Painting of George Washington" if they like, but CNN will gladly keep reporting every American who gets a papercut.


Well why not call it "Hugs and Kisses"? Why choose Liberty? Get real, WHAT ARE THEY TRYING TO SELL? To deny that they (yes, the Bush Administration) is not trying to SELL the war is blindness.

[elucidator]

The Bushiviks have come to a much more sophisticated understanding of the importance of these names, both to inspire the American public and to encourage the Iraqi militia. Thus, the Arabic translation of the chosen code name is as important, if not more important, than the name chosen for American consumption. This lesson was brought home after the disastrous failure of Operation The Prophet Nibbles Porky's Nutsack.

[Si Amigo]

Oh, like Operation "Market Gardern" or "D-Day" were not successful because of thier names. The English language has what, a 1/2 million differnet words and countless variations? You could call it "Operation XYZ" and what would people think, that they were looking at thier zippers? :confused:

[Bryan Ekers]

Well why not call it "Hugs and Kisses"? Why choose Liberty? Get real, WHAT ARE THEY TRYING TO SELL? To deny that they (yes, the Bush Administration) is not trying to SELL the war is blindness.

Well, of course they're trying to SELL the war, just as every President has tried to "sell" some idea or action important to his administration and/or his administration's main financial/political supporters.

As for "why" they're selling it, what do you care since you're obviously not buying it? Is there some concern that some people somewhere are stupid enough to buy it solely based on the names?

[Si Amigo]

Well, of course they're trying to SELL the war, just as every President has tried to "sell" some idea or action important to his administration and/or his administration's main financial/political supporters.

As for "why" they're selling it, what do you care since you're obviously not buying it? Is there some concern that some people somewhere are stupid enough to buy it solely based on the names?

No, my point is when does it just become smuck! Somebody selling something that nobody want's tp buy. Like Ginsue knives or some flute player from India. :wally Become a little more sohisticated is all I'm asking . . .

[Bryan Ekers]

Um, you'll really need to learn to tone it down if you want to start threads in this forum. Better to ask that this be moved to the Pit, at which point I'll be happy to unload the full power of my mighty and sophisticated brain upon you.



"when does it just become smuck" ? Is that, like, one of those Indian gods, "I am become smuck, the obscurer of words?"

[Si Amigo]

Um, you'll really need to learn to tone it down if you want to start threads in this forum. Better to ask that this be moved to the Pit, at which point I'll be happy to unload the full power of my mighty and sophisticated brain upon you.



"when does it just become smuck" ? Is that, like, one of those Indian gods, "I am become smuck, the obscurer of words?"

Sorry self appointed admin, didnt mean to upset you? Can't handle the acctual question? :p

[Bryan Ekers]

Well, the only question is why you're working yourself up over this issue.



Okay, there's a second question of why I should care.

[Si Amigo]

Well, the only question is why you're working yourself up over this issue.



Okay, there's a second question of why I should care.

Well if you don't care then don't post in debates. Not that I try to potray myself as a moderator. :eek: Debates is were you are supposed to get yourself worked over issues, isn't it?. :confused:

[Si Amigo]

Um, you'll really need to learn to tone it down if you want to start threads in this forum. Better to ask that this be moved to the Pit, at which point I'll be happy to unload the full power of my mighty and sophisticated brain upon you.


So basically, what you are saying is that this souldn't even be asked? :( Oh, please unload your mighty and sophisticated brain brain upon me). Come on, I'm a big boy. ;)

[Imasquare]

How long before these "patriotic" code names become utter bull.
I've always thought the silly code names the police and military give their operations are emarassingly cheesy. Makes them sound like a bunch of wankers.


People die in Iraq and they tag a political name name to thier death. Operation Freedom, Task Force Liberty, blah blah blah. You won the election by barely 50 percent of the popular vote, where is your "mandate" to declare everybody who dies for your cause a freedom fighter? And no, I do respect our troops and the fact that most of them did not choose to be there. :mad:I agree - the Iraq invasion is an act of evil. But in an indirect way the soldiers did choose to go there. When they joined the military they knew they would be required to go and fight where ever their government sends them. It would be different if the were conscripted but that is probably not going to happen for another year or so.

[Si Amigo]

I agee, most of them signed up knowing that they may have to go off to a undesribed war somewhere and now they are having to face up to the REALITY of that, but, do THEY (read admin, not neccessarily Bush) have to place these patroicic names onto the missions they are fighting and giving thier lives for to make them patriotic? :(

Can't we agree that they are giving thier lives for a just reason without putting some cheessy desription to the campaign that they got killed in? It's not about being agaist or for the action, it's about having a little respect. They died just the same for campaign XYZ as they do for campaign Freedom isn't it :confused:

[Si Amigo]

Oh, and TFL is here, today . .http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7897149/ .

I am amazed/worried. Since I posted they changed the name of the operation in the news story in the link from Task Force Liberty to Lightning. :eek: Looks like GW is watching and reading the STMB! :eek:

[Driver8]

The military could use corporate sponsorships. How about "Operation Pepsi Cola" or "Operation Olive Garden"? They're no less ridiculous, and they'd have extra cash for fighter jets or wall units or whatever it is that militaries like to buy.

[E-Sabbath]

As I understand it, task force names are chosen from a random list of names. They shouldn't duplicate a previous name that year, and they should have nothing to do with the actual mission, so as to provide minimal helpful information to spies.

Liberty, being an 'empty' word operationally, is perfectly suited for this sort of naming.

[Bryan Ekers]

The military could use corporate sponsorships. How about "Operation Pepsi Cola" or "Operation Olive Garden"? They're no less ridiculous, and they'd have extra cash for fighter jets or wall units or whatever it is that militaries like to buy.

Heh. "This week's carpet bombing brought to you by Stainmaster!"

[MEBuckner]

Moderator's Note: Si Amigo, don't insult other posters in Great Debates; that includes using a smiley to call them "putzes" (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=4370655).

This thread doesn't really seem like a debate about what sort of names we should give our military operations; it seems like a rant. I am therefore carrying out Operation Screaming Noble Eagle of Freedom and moving this thread to the Pit as of 19:53 hours Zulu.

[Bryan Ekers]

Pit check... Pit check... all clear?


The OP is a fucking moron. Over.

[Squink]

as of 19:53 hours Zulu.Your watch is fast, please synchronize.

[MEBuckner]

Actually the board clock is slow. Either that, or the U.S. Naval Observatory is fast, but I'm putting my money on the board clock being slow.

[Stonebow]

As I understand it, task force names are chosen from a random list of names. They shouldn't duplicate a previous name that year, and they should have nothing to do with the actual mission, so as to provide minimal helpful information to spies.

Liberty, being an 'empty' word operationally, is perfectly suited for this sort of
naming.

Yeah, if everyone got to pick their own operation names, they'd all be 'Operation Badass' or 'Operation Boot to the Head' or something equally profound. And think of the complaints in the ranks...

(channeling Tarantino)

Major: Hey, how come I've got Operation Pink?
Colonel: Because yer a faggot, alright!

(channeling Tarantino)


And before I forget, though I'm no fan of the administration, the CiC, or our foreign occupations, the OP is a raving lunatic.

That's all people. This thread is Omega...let's bug out!

[Revtim]

Who is the "you" you're addressing in your post? I didn't win any elections and I've never declared anybody a freedom fighter. If you're attempting to speak to President Bush, he's not a regular poster on this board. I think he was a lurker but he dropped out after we went to subscriptions.
It's called 'apostrophe'. "The direct address of an absent or imaginary person or of a personified abstraction, especially as a digression in the course of a speech or composition."
Meaning 2 listed here: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=apostrophe

[XT]

The OP is a fucking moron. Over.

Copy that. All here agree. Advise nuking him from orbit....its the only way to be sure.

-XT

[askeptic]

Better to ask that this be moved to the Pit, at which point I'll be happy to unload the full power of my mighty and sophisticated brain upon you.





Pit check... Pit check... all clear?


The OP is a fucking moron. Over.

Thats mighty and sophisticated? You can do better. I've seen it. :p

[askeptic]

I think the original name was Operation Iraqi Liberation but the spimmeisters nixed it for some reason.

[Bryan Ekers]

Thats mighty and sophisticated? You can do better. I've seen it. :p

Curses! A better petard-hoisting I've not seen in many a fortyear.



Well, I'll wait to see if the OP stops by to give me more ammunition. Thus far, I've expressed my true opinion succinctly and perfectly.

[Si Amigo]

Curses! A better petard-hoisting I've not seen in many a fortyear.



Well, I'll wait to see if the OP stops by to give me more ammunition. Thus far, I've expressed my true opinion succinctly and perfectly.
Sorry Bryan, I don't don't mud wrestle with pigs. Oh, forgive me I just did. :smack:

Yeah, you got this into the pit. Right where your kind belong. End of post. Go on, unlease your keen mind upon me, it will not be answered, :mad: FU too.

[Paul in Qatar]

I would point out I am the (self-appointed) World's Leading Authority on military codewords (for operations, not for units or things). If I can help you on this subject, let me know.

(Not to spoil your rant, rant on.)

[Imasquare]

The OP is a fucking moron. Over.Really? Why?

I just re-read the entire thread and found nothing moronic, nor offensive in Si Amigo's postings.

[Si Amigo]

I would point out I am the (self-appointed) World's Leading Authority on military codewords (for operations, not for units or things). If I can help you on this subject, let me know.

(Not to spoil your rant, rant on.)

Well Paul, I do kind of respect your opinion, so yes, please educate me. Seriously.

[Bryan Ekers]

Hmm, four days for that?

I stand by my statement.

[Rilchiam]

Oh, like Operation "Market Gardern" or "D-Day" were not successful because of thier names. The English language has what, a 1/2 million differnet words and countless variations? You could call it "Operation XYZ" and what would people think, that they were looking at thier zippers? :confused:

Hardly, since zippers are YKK. :::d&r:::

[msmith537]

Oh, like Operation "Market Gardern" or "D-Day" were not successful because of thier names.

Actually "D-Day" was "Operation: Overlord". D-Day is actually the day of the invasion. H-Hour is the hour the invasion starts. You get the idea.

[msmith537]

Actually I should point out the Overlord was a smashing success while Market Garden (which IMHO is a shitty name) failed.

[E-Sabbath]

D-Day was not the name of an operation, but the day the operation was to take place. It was scheduled to start on H-Hour of D-Day.

[esquimalt]

I dub this thread "Operation nothing better to complain about"

[Clothahump]

Pit check... Pit check... all clear?


The OP is a fucking moron. Over.

Ah, roger that, Agent Ekers: we copy "fucking moron" loud and clear.

Be advised, however, that this thread has been renamed. In accordance with the directive to have designations that are neutral and do not give indication as to target or manpower, this thread is now designated as Operation Farting Buffalo.

[Paul in Qatar]

OK, first thing go to a used bookstore and buy a copy of my out-of-print 'Codeword Dictionary,' a classic in the field, in fact the only book in the field. That makes me the World's Leading Authority.

(Do not even mention Arkin's screwy book. Really.)

OK, codewords were first used (in a limited way) in WWI. Before that no one person had to keep too many operations or plans in his head.

Different countries have used different systems over time. The Americans use a number of systems and at lower levels of command, have name operations as the spirit move them. Anyway, rather than try to put these things into a system to help us understand them, it is better to just accept there really is no overall system.

The raid on Dieppe was planned as Operation Rutter (which at least sounds dirty), but the name was nixed by Churchill who realized it was an unsuitable name. He did not want a husband or son killed in Rutter. It became Jubilee instead.

So we can see from darn near the get-go political types have monkied with code names for public relations purposes.

I was (very tangentially) involved in the American invasion of Panama. The rules gave Southern Command a block of letters we could use for names, and we had already used all the good names (my favorite was 'Blast Furnace'). So this major operation got the lousy name 'Blue Spoon.'

George Bush (the real one, not this one) decided it was a silly name and dubbed it 'Just Cause." (Why did we invade? Just 'Cause.)

Consider for a moment the capture of Saddam a year or so ago. Some low-level guy gave the operation the name 'Red Dawn' from the movie. Had we known it was going down in history (unlike every other capture Saddam mission up to then) we would have given it a neat name.

You might want to check out the page of Military Operations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_operations_and_projects_%28military_and_non-military%29) on the Wikipedia. It is not my entire tome, but a good sample.

[Bryan Ekers]

As minor note, Mike Frost's memoir, Spyworld, documenting his years working for the Communications Security Establishment (a Canadian spy agency, though its mandate has been altered somewhat since Frost's time), describes various operations which he named after his own daughters, including Operation Julia.

It's not as cool-sounding as Operation Thunderbolt or Operation Fear-of-God, but it got the job done.

[Rashak Mani]

Codenames used to be different in order to deceive enemy spies no ?

If I remember... tanks got that name due to attempts to deceive spies. A spy finding out about an operation called "Market Garden" would certainly be deceived... or not gain anything from the name itself. D-Day was called "Overlord" which wasn't as discrete but still didn't give away much.

I guess its the same with "Just Cause" and "Operation Freedom"... its still all about deceiving. ;)

[msmith537]

You might want to check out the page of Military Operations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_operations_and_projects_%28military_and_non-military%29) on the Wikipedia. It is not my entire tome, but a good sample.


There's no Vietnam War operations listed!

[Spiff]

I dub this thread "Operation nothing better to complain about"Smuck you and the horse you rode in on! :D

[danceswithcats]

Sorry Bryan, I don't don't mud wrestle with pigs. Oh, forgive me I just did.

Yeah, you got this into the pit. Right where your kind belong. End of post. Go on, unlease your keen mind upon me, it will not be answered, FU too.

Mind leasing. What an interesting concept. What better way for some folks to buy a clue? One can readily imagine sales pitches: This here one is barely used-why it's been opened only once or twice. :p

[Bryan Ekers]

Codenames used to be different in order to deceive enemy spies no ?

Well, it was a convenient label that everyone in the know could use but which ideally carried no indication of the operation's nature or scope. I've no doubt there were many fake operations that existed only on paper i.e. "Operation Tagline will require two addition infantry platoons" transmitted "accidentally" in the clear, when there was no such operation.

"Overlord" was a bit tricky, since it sounds cool and impressive, but I'll bet the expected historical significance of the invasion was a factor. Ironically, the name "D-Day" is much more familiar, even through the phrase refers generically to the key day of any military operation.

[Bryan Ekers]

Mind leasing. What an interesting concept.

After years of TV watching and video-game playing, I probably couldn't even get my security deposit back.

[Paul in Qatar]

Actually, there are a lot of example of deception operations which existed on the radio only. Consider:

COCKADE (Allied 42) The overall 1943 Allied deception plan for Europe. The goal was to convince the Germans that the Western Allies would invade Europe in 1943. By forcing the Germans to redeploy troops from the Eastern Front, COCKADE was aimed at reducing pressure on the Soviet Union. Included three sequential elements: STARKEY, WADHAM, and TINDALL. STARKEY falsely depicted the threat of a large British invasion near Bourlogne in mid-September. An American attack (WADHAM) would supposedly follow three weeks later. After these two phony invasions were “canceled,” five divisions would be diverted for a false invasion of Norway (TINDALL). See HARLEQUIN, DUNDAS and LARKHILL.


FORTITUDE (Allied 44) Part of BODYGUARD, the overall deception operations in support of the invasion of northern France (OVERLORD). FORTITUDE had two subelements; FORTITUDE NORTH and FORTITUDE SOUTH. FORTITUDE NORTH was a mostly-British effort that falsely depicted a threat of an invasion of Scandinavia by forces in Scotland (See TINDALL). The key portion of FORTITUDE SOUTH was QUICKSILVER which depicted a fictitious “First United States Army Group” commanded by George Patton aimed at invading France at the Pas de Calais (see STARKEY).

It is remarkable how well deceptions work.

[Rashak Mani]

Well Paul... the allies in a way didn't have anything but blanks to shoot... and so they shot a lot of blanks in order to distract the Nazi Juggernaut ! :D

[Paul in Qatar]

Well, there is more than that. Ever see one of those (perfectly factual) listings that the Soviets faced (some huge number) German divisions, while the Western Allies faced only (some small number)?

True as far as it goes, but the West also deserves credit for the considerable number of Germans tied up in Scandinavia and The Balkans.

As Some Smart Chinese Guy said, the best way to win a battle is to not fight it at all. The Germans seemed to be especially vulnerable to deception, and the Allies got really, really good at playing them like a fiddle.

That being said, the Iraqis also fell for just about every deception we tossed their way. (Of course the reverse also seems to be true.)

In any case, deception is am American speciality. We like doing it and we do it pretty darn well.

[Bryan Ekers]

In any case, deception is am American speciality. We like doing it and we do it pretty darn well.

Funny, I'd heard otherwise.




























heh.

[Tripler]

Who the fuck cares what they call it? If there's a job to be done, by God, it's gotta be done. If it 'seems' like a marketing ploy to call it something more beneficial, that's all up to the person percieving the marketing. I could care less if you called it 'Operation HELL FROZE OVER, SO BOMB THE SOVIETS' or 'Operation GOAT FELCH'. We're still gonna go to work.

In other words, "don't judge a book by it's cover". Judge it on it's merits and objectives.

Tripler
Who the hell cares what it's called?

[Muffin]

Operation Rosebud.

[Si Amigo]

Who the fuck cares what they call it? If there's a job to be done, by God, it's gotta be done. If it 'seems' like a marketing ploy to call it something more beneficial, that's all up to the person percieving the marketing. I could care less if you called it 'Operation HELL FROZE OVER, SO BOMB THE SOVIETS' or 'Operation GOAT FELCH'. We're still gonna go to work.

In other words, "don't judge a book by it's cover". Judge it on it's merits and objectives.

Tripler
Who the hell cares what it's called?

Considering the respones since this went into the pit, I kinda feel privialged to be BBQ'd by Paul and Byran. :cool:

[danceswithcats]

You should be BBQ'd by Merriam and Webster on whom you've launched Operashun Fukwit.

[Bryan Ekers]

Considering the respones since this went into the pit, I kinda feel privialged to be BBQ'd by Paul and Byran. :cool:

Actually, the thread is more interesting when you're not in it, so stop dragging it down, already.

[Si Amigo]

Actually, the thread is more interesting when you're not in it, so stop dragging it down, already.

But Byran, I like the fact that you are so easily aroused. It adds to your post count so don't feel so bad.

[danceswithcats]

Can you complete a single sentence without a misspelling, dude? You've really got to cut back.

[Si Amigo]

Can you complete a single sentence without a misspelling, dude? You've really got to cut back.

No, I can't. I really got to start cutting and pasting (did I misspel that?, sorry) in Word but I'm just toooooo lazzy. :D

[Bryan Ekers]

But Byran, I like the fact that you are so easily aroused.

How you doin'?



Anyhoo, it was you who forced this thread into the Pit, not that it's any great accomplishment.

[Tripler]

Considering the respones since this went into the pit, I kinda feel privialged to be BBQ'd by Paul and Byran. :cool:

I figured out who "Byran" was, but who the hell is "Paul"?

Tripler
:confused:

[Bryan Ekers]

I figured out who "Byran" was, but who the hell is "Paul"?

He's dead.

All the clues are there.

[Paul in Qatar]

I am feeling much better. I think I will go for a walk.

[Random]

You're not fooling anyone, you know.

[Miller]

I am feeling much better. I think I will go for a walk.

Don't forget your shoes.

[danceswithcats]

Functioning brain. The other gray meat.

Amazing it is when some folks will post like they've just had a prefrontal lobotomy, swallowed a handful of mushrooms and washed it down with MD 20/20.

[Tripler]

Amazing it is when some folks will post like they've just had a prefrontal lobotomy, swallowed a handful of mushrooms and washed it down with MD 20/20.

You know, they say that if you get a million chimpanzees banging on a million typewriters over a million years, eventually, you'll come up with the works of Shakespeare.

I think we found that moment. . . maybe.

Tripler
:: hides his bananas ::