If no one could ever find out, would you do something unethical? Why/Why Not

[pace]

lately i've been pretty stunned at the behavior of a few people I know... from minor tax cheating-to-fraud. To me, they seem to have no shame about their actions at all; they say "no one will ever find out" and I tell myself, "but YOU know! ... and how can anyone turn on and off their integrity, and any sense of ethics like a light switch? You're either on the up and up 24/7 or you're just another f'n Phoney!

[HPL]

lately i've been pretty stunned at the behavior of a few people I know... from minor tax cheating-to-fraud. To me, they seem to have no shame about their actions at all; they say "no one will ever find out" and I tell myself, "but YOU know! ... and how can anyone turn on and off their integrity, and any sense of ethics like a light switch? You're either on the up and up 24/7 or you're just another f'n Phoney!

Is this a question or a rant?

[ParentalAdvisory]

Define unethical.

[Dunderman]

Sure, it's happened. Are you telling me there are people who have never broken their code of ethics?

[cosmosdan]

I think it's pretty normal and human to succumb to temptation now and then. I don't think we need to beat ourselves up over it but I agree with you. If you promote honesty in general but will readily use dishonesty when you think "know one will know" that's hypocritical. We just had a discussion which dealt in part with all the little lies that have become so acceptable.
Here's another example. I've worked in retail for years. You might have noticed that return policies are changeing. Many stores are now chargeing restocking fees on certain items. Why? Because over a period of years certain items became prime target for a "rent for free" scam. Digital cameras and camcorders. Big screen TVs around super bowl or world series time. Laptop computers. Camping equipment. Certain seldom used lawn and garden equipment. People "buy" them and use them for whatever their purpose is and then bring them back expecting a full refund. Usually that involves making up some lie about why they are returning it. When this behavior was the exception to the rule companies could absorb the cost. As it became more common they decided they had to change their policies. It's a form of stealing but since there's no chance of being prosecuted people are willing to do it. It's not free. When a new item has to be sold as used then it cost the company and now we have restocking fees to help absorb the loss of the increase in this practice.

[Scott Plaid]

Green Lantern!

No, wait. We need someone else who welds a powerful ring. Gyges (http://webs.wofford.edu/kaycd/ethics/gyges.htm) can answer the question.

[Bryan Ekers]

Of course, the biggest problem with an ethical breach becoming known is that you have to eliminate an ever-increasing sphere of witnesses, and all that digging is hard on the back.

[monstro]

lately i've been pretty stunned at the behavior of a few people I know... from minor tax cheating-to-fraud. To me, they seem to have no shame about their actions at all; they say "no one will ever find out" and I tell myself, "but YOU know! ... and how can anyone turn on and off their integrity, and any sense of ethics like a light switch? You're either on the up and up 24/7 or you're just another f'n Phoney!

We have all sinned. We have all told lies or exaggerations of the truth. Many of us regularly break the law (going above the speed limit, "taste-testing" grapes at the market before buying them, cutting through parking lots to avoid lights, jaywalking, driving without a seatbelt, etc.) And a lot of us have cheated in school to various degrees, from copying sentences straight out of the encylopedia to buying class papers on-line.

Unless you can say you've never done any of the above EVER, then I don't think you should be all that stunned. Ethical dillemas are something we've all had to face in our life. It's what makes us human.

Now, the lack of shame is another thing because "unethical" is subject to one's personal values and morals. You might castigate someone who jaywalks, but to someone else, jaywalking is simply not that big of a deal. It is unethical to cheat on one's spouse. But what if your spouse refuses to sleep with you? Suddenly the ethics of cheating are a little cloudier, and adultery becomes a little more justifiable and unshameful.

Victimless crimes are usually the easiest to justify. So people will often convince themselves that they aren't hurting anyone anyway, so why feel shame?

[brickbacon]

Sure, it's happened. Are you telling me there are people who have never broken their code of ethics?

Exactly. Plus, what makes "cheating" on your taxes unethical in an absolute sense?

[msmith537]

You're either on the up and up 24/7 or you're just another f'n Phoney!

That seems a little black and white, doesn't it?

[Zoe]

If I could bilk enough money from Halliburton to provide protective gear for the forces fighting in the Middle East and nobody would know, I would do it. But I don't think it would be unethical. Does that count?

(I wouldn't want to be put in the position of having to lie about it.)

[msmith537]

If I could bilk enough money from Halliburton to provide protective gear for the forces fighting in the Middle East and nobody would know, I would do it. But I don't think it would be unethical. Does that count?


For which side?

[pace]

True, shameful "unethical" behavior is subject to each person's definition... i also know that there are gray areas, and I'm like most of you, I've exaggerated, driven without seatbelt from time to time--I'm sure of it... probably other "minor" (also subjective) slants, no one is perfect, but good grief, some people seem to enjoy being LESS than perfect as much as they can for as long as they can (as long as they can get away with it).

Regarding Intentionally purchasing to use temporarily only to return it: That sux too! I had neighbors who did that with a passion! They were very proud of themselves and ironically, worked for Catholic Charities! Go figure!

[Zoe]

msmith: For which side?


I hadn't thought about it until you asked. If I could get enough money, I would protect almost everybody.

[Shalmanese]

I think there are 3 different concepts that people are getting confused here.

First, is people who do what others generally regard as unethical but they do not.
Second, is when people do something that they personally regard as unethical and then feel guilty about it.
Third, is when people do something which they personally agree is unethical, but do not feel guilty about it.

I'm sure most people agree than No 2 is okay, it's just part of being human. No 1 is tricky and would probably depend on the act. But my impression was that pace was railing against No 3 as something which is completely unacceptable and I think he has a fair point.

[cosmosdan]

I think there are 3 different concepts that people are getting confused here.
First, is people who do what others generally regard as unethical but they do not.
Second, is when people do something that they personally regard as unethical and then feel guilty about it.
Third, is when people do something which they personally agree is unethical, but do not feel guilty about it.
I'm sure most people agree than No 2 is okay, it's just part of being human. No 1 is tricky and would probably depend on the act. But my impression was that pace was railing against No 3 as something which is completely unacceptable and I think he has a fair point.

Nice summation. I agree.
Examples first; In a sale I've seen people get upset and feel like they've been screwed because they failed to understand something or didn't ask the right questions before they purchased. No one lied to them or withheld info that they knew was critical. The customer might feel the store or individual was unethical when often that isn't the case

Second; In a moment of weakness we give into temptation and lie but it knaws at our conscience.
third. Someone gives lip service to certain principles and is willing to critisize others for not liveing up to them, but seems totally oblivious to the fact that they have violated those very principles. Often you see some strong denial or justification at work.

[panache45]

Victimless crimes are usually the easiest to justify. So people will often convince themselves that they aren't hurting anyone anyway, so why feel shame?
Victimless crimes aren't merely the "easiest to justify," they are totally justifiable. If the action isn't hurting anyone anyway, it shouldn't be a crime.

Of couse, in deciding whether to take such an action, you have to consider the possible legal consequences. But that's a pragmatic question, not an ethical one.

[pace]

pace was railing against No 3 as something which is completely unacceptable and I think he has a fair point.

Yes, definitely.

[cosmosdan]

Victimless crimes aren't merely the "easiest to justify," they are totally justifiable. If the action isn't hurting anyone anyway, it shouldn't be a crime.

Of couse, in deciding whether to take such an action, you have to consider the possible legal consequences. But that's a pragmatic question, not an ethical one.
Victemless crimes such as?? I'm wondering what this has to do with the OP and unethical behavior. Just because something is technically illegal doesn't make it unethical. There are also things that are technically legal that are pretty unethical such as the rent for free practice in my earlier post.

[cosmosdan]

Regarding Intentionally purchasing to use temporarily only to return it: That sux too! I had neighbors who did that with a passion! They were very proud of themselves and ironically, worked for Catholic Charities! Go figure!

Funny isn't it. There are unethical things that people justify with the idea that "everybody does it" Many decent people are genuinely surprised at the suggestion that that behavior is unethical. Customers will also lie to save a couple of dollars
"I saw this cheaper at another store" is fairly common. Changeing price tags too.
I saw a middle aged. middle class woman come in and take something off the shelf that she had bought a few days ago and try to return the one she just picked up as the one she had bought a few days ago. When my windsheild got broken my mother in law suggested that I write down the plate number of some truck in front of me and call the company to complain that they had thrown a rock and broken my windshield.
Go figure.

[D_Odds]

Being an atheist in a household of Catholics, my in-laws, especially my FIL, see me as lacking 'morality'. Yet these people (my extended family on Ms. D_Odds side) who pray every night and regularly attend worship services will lie and scam on their taxes, insurance, cable, etc, and brag about it to the rest of the family. When I point out that they are stealing, and teaching their children that stealing is acceptable, I'm scoffed at. Now, they just don't tell their stories around me, as I'm the party pooper, pointing out that young children are not mature enough to realize it's "ok" to steal from GEICO but "not ok" to steal from the candy store.

Much less occurs on my side of the family. Both of my grandmothers* were very ethical people who wouldn't cheat anyone out of anything, and the trait has been passed down. That's not to say that everyone is straight and clean, just that we don't get together and try to outdo one another by our stories of theft of services.

*My paternal grandmother also prayed daily and regularly attended mass. My maternal grandmother was very spiritual, but not overtly religious. My first paragraph is not an indictment against Catholicism or religion. I'm just pointing out the hypocracy

[serious lark]

Pace , we share a joint peeve on this. Many people seem to feel that if they aren't caught, then it is OK to do something that they would not be able to advocate as ethical behaviour. I have noticed that people tend to do this when they know they cannot get their way any other way and what they are doing harms a 'faceless' entity (the government in the case of cheating on taxes, big business in the case of scamming stores or businesses, etc.). I think this helps them assuage their conscience that what they are doing is not so bad.

[LiQUiDBuD]

Never underestimate the ability of anybody to justify anything.

It's all just a matter of perspective and point of view, not to mention self-preservation.

[groman]

Sometimes people have ethical systems not entirely compatible with yours to the point where it seems like somebody is being a hypocrite or inconsistent, but actually their ethics system is incompatible.

For example, I firmly believe that shoplifting is much more unethical behavior then returning an item off the store shelf that you didn't buy with a fake receipt for example. To a lot of people that seems inconsistent.

Another example, I'll respect the right to be anonymous over the right to life, i.e. if one does not wish their identity to be disclosed in a given situation, and the only way to accomplish that is to use deadly force, such use is justified. Of course the law, and the majority of people, will never agree with me.

Some will call me inconsistent, majority will call me batshit insane or a psycopath. I just grew up differently. I formed my own opinions, and I have some pretty staunch ideas that I'm apprehensive about disclosing in a public forum, that I'm yet to find anybody who would agree with me.

This isn't the pit, but it's sometimes difficult to face the world with the realization that if my core ideals were made into a political party, I'd have millions of times less supporters than the Nazis or the Communists.