Dog: It's what's for dinner.

[Drain Bead]

There are cultures in which folks eat dog. Hell, I've heard from some Americans who ate dog, and they said it was wonderful, and that they've never looked at people's pets in the same way.

This leads to a question. Do different breeds of dog taste differently from others? Or is it a matter of the cut of meat, or what the dog was fed? What kind of dogs are usually cooked in traditional dog cuisine?

[Jois]

I thought it was "Cat:the other white meat" that was enjoyed by most cultures other than ours.

[Duck Duck Goose]

It was my understanding that puppies were/are considered the most savory.

(Note: if this topic had been posted by anybody but DB, I wouldn't have bothered even to open the thread.)

[CalMeacham]

For some info on Dog and Cat eating (and why it isn't more widely practiced) have a look at anthropologist Marvin Harris' "Good to Eat". This has also been published under the title "The Sacred Cow and the Abominable Pig", apparently because too many people assumed from the title that it was a cook book. He devotes a whole chapter to dogs and cats, but doesn't tell you anything about the taste, or what cuts are used.There's a chapter on horses, too. My favorites are the chapters on eating bugs and on eating people.

[Floater]

Originally posted by Drain Bead

This leads to a question. Do different breeds of dog taste differently from others? Or is it a matter of the cut of meat, or what the dog was fed? What kind of dogs are usually cooked in traditional dog cuisine?

According to a friend of mine, who is married to a Chinese, the dogs that are eaten are specially bred for that purpose. He also claims they are quite tasty (to the horror of his Mandarin wife, who is of the opinion that eating dog is a disgusting habit that those primitive Cantonese can keep to themselves).

[bibliophage]

Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose
It was my understanding that puppies were/are considered the most savory.
There's quite a bit about dogs in Unmentionable Cuisine by Calvin Schwabe. (No recipies, sorry.) There was only two things in that whole book that grossed me out. One of them was that roast suckling puppies were a favorite Roman delicacy. Some Native Americans were (and are?) also great dog-eaters.

[Duck Duck Goose]

An apparently serious discussion of dog eating, including a recipe:
Part 1 (http://www.yolk.com/magazine/iss2/dog.html)

Part 2 (http://www.yolk.com/magazine/iss2/dog2.html)

And no discussion of dog eating would be complete without hearing the Korean dog soup story from Snopes. (http://www.snopes.com/critters/edibles/dogsoup.htm)

[Ringo]

Not a lot of info, Drain.

From http://www.ivu.org/evu/english/news/news964/dogs.html

In Switzerland, unlike in other countries, the personal consumption of domestic animals is not forbidden, only the trade in such animals is not allowed. The production of lard, known for its "health benefits" in case of rheumatism is allowed as long as it is not done for profit.

In an interview a farmer told the journalist that "meat from dogs is the healthiest of all. It has shorter fibres than cow meat, has no hormones like veal, no antibiotics like pork".

A restaurant owner in Widnau, my little hometown confessed his dog eating habits and told the reporter that he was enthusiastic about meat from dogs as well as its lard. Only some days ago he had given dog lard to the policeman for his two children and their cough had been cured at once.

From http://www.halfmoon.org/dog.html

Coe points out that cultures that eat canines find the meat most pleasantly flavored when the dogs have been raised on a primarily vegetarian diet, and the maize-fed edible dogs of the Maya were compared even by the post-Conquest Spanish to roast suckling pig.

The Spanish may have found the eating of dogs bizarre at first, but they adapted quickly enough. Ships returning to Spain from Mesoamerica carried larders full of salted dog to feed the sailors.

This one has a recipe:

http://www.yolk.com/magazine/iss2/dog2.html

What appears to be a message board with a Korean focus:

http://www.saram.net/web3/messages/102572.html

This page on Hawaiian Food and Culture mentions cooking dogs:

http://www.mauiflowie.com/hawaiiank.html

From a message board:

The Hawaiians bred and raised a line of vegetarian dogs fed primarily on poi for their feasts, and it is probably a good assumption that these animals were safer (and tastier) to consume on a regular basis.

I need to get back to work.

[bibliophage]

Speaking of the Swiss, one of their traditional dishes is Pfeffer Fuchs [spelling?] or "peppered fox."

A few years ago, I saw a game cookbook that the Canadian Government put out. Included were recipies for preparing wolf and coyote (not to mention lynx and muskrat). I suppose the flavor would be about the same.

[Greg Charles]

Dog is eaten in northern Viet Nam. I've been to the country several times, but only to the south, so I've seen very little of the practice. It pretty much falls under the category of things I'd rather not know about anyway. However, I have heard that dog meat is flavored with ginger, and the northerners seems to think it's very tasty that way. The cut probably isn't so important, because Vietnamese food is usually just a small amount of meat mixed with vegetables and rice. They tend to prefer meat with tendons and cartilage still attached though, so they probably like cuts near the ribs and joints.

As far as different breeds go ... until recently there only seemed to be one breed of dog in Viet Nam. It was medium sized, with sandy brown fur, pointed snout, and floppy ears. Some people kept them as pets, but for the most part they just roamed the streets eating scraps. Recently I've seen people with different breeds, presumably imported. I'm not sure if any gourmet northerners have attempted a taste test though.

[Gunslinger]

"Dog tastes good, but kinda stringy...better then snake."--My dad, US Army Special Forces, 1968-72

[Arnold Winkelried]

Lest people get the wrong idea, eating canines is not a common occurrence in Switzerland, and most swiss people would greet the idea of eating a dog or a cat with the same enthusiasm as people in the USA (though in Switzerland you can easily purchase horse meat.)

Personally this thread has inspired me to get to the bottom of a family legend once and for all. My uncle has told me that my grandfather (a farmer in Switzerland) had, at least one occasion, butchered one of the family dogs when it got fat and the family had it for dinner. When I asked my father about it, he was very cagey about answering, and since my uncle is a known prankster I thought he was joking. But I'll ask again.

[Padeye]

Dog isn't that uncommon in parts of Asia. Any sailor that at at a barbeque stand near the Subic Bay station in Olongopo City has probably eaten dog. The vendors hawk monkey meat but those are lots harder to catch.

[Duck Duck Goose]

Say, Bibliophage, I know you're the King of the Reference Section an' all, but I'm afraid I'm gonna have to see a cite for that Swiss "pepper fox" recipe. Checking Google under "pfeffer fuchs" only turns up a Dutch/German food dictionary, which includes "paprika fuchs" but says it's a synonym for pepperoni. http://www.xs4all.nl/~margjos/pftxtnl.htm

My WAG would be that it's something that's actually made with veal but whimsically termed "fox".

[oldscratch]

Do different dogs taste dfferent? I would imagine, that there is a very slight difference in taste between the different breeds. Look at how different jack rabbit and domestic taste, or wild turkey vs. domestic. It would probably be similar. I imagine that most of the difference comes from size, a large dog will taste quite different from a small, from fattiness, some dogs are leaner. Of course I think the deciding factor is diet. If a dog eats nothing but garbage, it will have a decidedly "yucky" flavor.

[Doobieous]

In the Philippines dog is eaten also. I've never asked my relatives if theyve eaten it, but i would bet they have at least once. A friend of mine said her cousin was in the Philippines and was served something called "German Meat" turns out it was a german shepherd. I've also heard that dog is a bit greasy but good none the less. Another person who i used to talk to in chat from the Philippines said that in Manila, street vendors often have dog meat in their food. Though it's supposedly illegal, the police over look it because it tastes quite good.

[bibliophage]

Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose
Say, Bibliophage, I know you're the King of the Reference Section an' all, but I'm afraid I'm gonna have to see a cite for that Swiss "pepper fox" recipe. Checking Google under "pfeffer fuchs" only turns up a Dutch/German food dictionary, which includes "paprika fuchs" but says it's a synonym for pepperoni. http://www.xs4all.nl/~margjos/pftxtnl.htm

My WAG would be that it's something that's actually made with veal but whimsically termed "fox".
O ye of little faith! (Though I admit I got the spelling wrong.) Calvin Schwabe, Unmentionable Cuisine, p. 173 Foxes are eaten too in Switzerland, especially in a popular hunters' dish called Fuchspfeffer (pepper fox). In western Switzerland hunters also eat fresh foxmeat in the field grilled over a fire on skewers, as the Hawaiians and Indonesians also do with dogmeat.

From the same book: The Aztecs' primary source of meat was the Mexican Hairless Dog.
Hippocrates praised dogmeat as a source of strength.
In Europe, dogmeat was traditionally believed to prevent tuberculosis.
The flavor of dogmeat, according to one English observer, is indistinguishable from that of mutton.

[casdave]

Padeye

Been there - done that, had no idea it was dog they serve it up on sticks a little like kebab.

Thought it was pork or chicken but I was so blasted I couldn't tell.

I think I don't feel well now.

[Duck Duck Goose]

Well, hey, Bubba, I was startin' to think you didn't like me any more! (It couldn't have been that you were just stumped?)

Anyway, thanks, but I still remain just a teeny bit skeptical. I mean, come on, how many foxes could they have available for eating in Switzerland? Let alone have enough to experiment upon and come up with recipes for? How do you know this guy wasn't just writing this book and he came across this li'l old unsubstantiated anecdote and just sorta decided to stick it in there 'cause it made a good story?

Especially the part about "fresh fox meat". Where are they gonna get fresh fox meat? Aren't foxes protected? They're protected in England. How come the civilized Swiss would have a "tradition" of eating foxes? They haven't been that desperate for protein that they'd exploit a resource like that.

Just because it's called "pepper fox" doesn't mean it has real fox in it. Maybe somebody was pulling his leg. He went out for dinner, saw "pepper fox" on the menu, asked about it, and somebody decided to have some fun with the gullible American. Next thing you know, the gullible American puts it in a book.

Hmm...Haven't you got another cite? I'm powerful hungry for seconds...

Besides, I'm trying to visualize the Aztec Empire running on a "primary source of meat" like chihuahuas. Not much meat on them critters, maybe a pound, dressed out? What about turkeys? Other poultry? Game? Fish? They raised fish in those canals, saith the National Geographic or NOVA or somebody like that.

Stretching the truth in order to sell books doesn't count as a lie, exactly, but this here is the Straight Dope, pardner.

[AskNott]

A while back, there was a piece on an NPR news show about dog-eating in Korea. The correspondent talked of how everyone in his USA office warned him to ask what he was eating, and of the jokes about barking in the kitchen. After he'd been there for a few days and heard nothing about dogmeat, he asked a Korean colleague about it. The fellow took him to a restaurant that specialized in dog. When he noticed that there were no women in the eatery, the correspondent was told that dog was only eaten as a male potency supplement. He was also assured that the dogs were specifically raised for meat, and weren't anybody's stolen Fido.

[Yarster]

Shanghai, China 1989 - was with a tourist group at a Chinese market (no one has a refrigerator over there) and we watched an old woman walk up to a pen of non-descript black puppies, point to one, and the man in charge casually broke its neck and put it in the woman's bag.

Needless to say everyone was disgusted but I almost laughed because I seemed to have been the only one who figured out that there wasn't a guy selling pets in the middle of what was otherwise a food market...the dogs are food too. I can't say that I remember the make and model of the dog however... only that they were puppies, mostly black in color, and a short haired style that looked like a random mutt.

[OxyMoron]

(hijack)

A friend-of-a-friend story (my friend the lawyer, speaking of his friend the consultant)

Male consultant is transferred to southeast Asia, I believe Malaysia. Salary is humongous, expenses minimal, so wife agrees to quit her job and accompany husband. Wife arrives, becomes socially isolated and very depressed. Couple takes trip to Hong Kong, wife sees puppies in a shop window (we know where this is headed, don't we?). Immediately both think "great idea! Maybe a dog will help wife feel a little better." Wife points to particularly adorable puppy...

Which shopkeeper kills, cleans, and packs in a paper bag.

Wife leaves on next plane for U.S.

I dunno, I've never felt any compunction about eating pet-animals. I wouldn't eat my pet, but I wouldn't have a problem with eating an animal of the same species.

If it's slower, smaller or dumber than me, it's lunch until proven otherwise.

[Gr8Kat]

Besides, I'm trying to visualize the Aztec Empire running on a "primary source of meat" like chihuahuas. Not much meat on them critters, maybe a pound, dressed out? What about turkeys? Other poultry? Game? Fish? They raised fish in those canals, saith the National Geographic or NOVA or somebody like that.

This is probably OT, but I don't think they mean the chihuahua when they say "Mexican hairless." Here's a link to Dog Fancy's profile of the Xoloitzcuintli (http://www.animalnetwork.com/dogs/profiles/profileview.asp?RecordNo=218), a hairless dog raised by the Aztecs and "once thought to have medicinal value. They have been used as aids in treating arthritis, rheumatism and aches and pains." It doesn't say the dogs were ground up and eaten, but it kinda sounds that way, doesn't it?

[nebuli]

According to Marvin Harris's Good to Eat: "Although the Aztecs did try to develop breeds of dogs that put on weight from eating cooked corn and beans, they would have been better off sticking to turkeys, which can at least eat uncooked plant food. In no way could either dogs or turkeys have furnished more than a token quantity of meat per capita even if they were eaten only by the Aztec elite."

So where did the Aztecs get most of their meat? According to Harris, from the huge number of human sacrifices which they performed each year.

[sailor]

In GuangZhou don't miss Qingping (Chingping) market? You'll see all sorts of animals live and in different states of disection full of flies... including dogs, cats, monkeys, raccons... it's like a zoo.

[insider]

Many years ago there was a movie called Mondo Canie. The movie shows Asians pointing at dogs in cages and than the animals were boiled. This movie was in the mid-to late sixties I believe.

[Manda JO]

The "humans as a signifigant source of protien" theroy is not taken seriously by any Mesoamericanist that I know of; it was suggested by one man and almost immediatly dismissed by the academy; however, the popular press loved it. There was no need for additional meat protien in the Aztec diet--they recieved plently of vegetable protien through beans. As in much of China, meat was more of a garnish than a main dish. Dogs, fish and turkeys were the sources of this meat.

This is not to say that the Aztecs weren't bloodthirsty cannibals--I am no apologist. I am just saying that there is no convienient dietary reason for it.

[Rysdad]

Quoting Bibliophage:

The Aztecs' primary source of meat was the Mexican Hairless Dog.

Drop the Chihuahua!

[vanilla]

I had read that they eat dogs in Korea. I can't imagine why they would taste different; chickens don't taste different no matter where I buy them.

[yabob]

Meat dogs, hairless meat dogs
Which indians loved hairless meat dogs?
Mayans, Aztecs, down there in Peru
Toltecs, Olmecs, with human sacrificial stew
Loved meat dogs, hairless meat dogs
The dog Pre-Columbians loved to biiiite!

[nebuli]

The "humans as a signifigant source of protien" theroy is not taken seriously by any Mesoamericanist that I know of; it was suggested by one man and almost immediatly dismissed by the academy; however, the popular press loved it. There was no need for additional meat protien in the Aztec diet--they recieved plently of vegetable protien through beans. As in much of China, meat was more of a garnish than a main dish. Dogs, fish and turkeys were the sources of this meat.

This is not to say that the Aztecs weren't bloodthirsty cannibals--I am no apologist. I am just saying that there is no convienient dietary reason for it.

Manda JO- Well, actually I think Harris agrees that cannibalism is a very inefficient method of obtaining protein. However, as I read him, he maintains that most societies exhibit a desire for meat that is distinct from any immediate need for protein (and I don't want to hijack this thread any further than we already have by debating that tangent). He does not dispute that the main source of protein in the Aztec diet came from plant matter. The point which he makes is that among the Aztecs (actually the Aztec elite)the flesh of sacrificial victims was the most common garnish. As he put it in examining "the Aztecs unique failure to repress cannibalism": "As in other state societies, the Aztec elite had to strike a balance between the nutritional benefits provided by human flesh and the political and economic costs of destroying the wealth-producing potential of human labor power. The Aztecs chose to eat the human equivalent of the golden goose."

[Duck Duck Goose]

[stands Yabob up against the wall and offers him a blindfold and a lit cigarette]