Old South racism alive and well in Texas

[Diogenes the Cynic]

I always though Bumfuck Texas was fictional but apparently it really exists (http://www.sanluisobispo.com/mld/sanluisobispo/news/nation/11828316.htm).
They picked up Billy Ray Johnson outside a convenience store in this East Texas bayou town, a place where Confederate flags fly in some front yards and a mural of barefoot slaves picking cotton greets patrons inside the local post office.

On a cool September night in 2003, they drove the 42-year-old mentally retarded black man to a cow pasture where a crowd of white youths was having a party. They got Johnson drunk, they made him dance, they jeered at him with racial epithets.

Then, according to court testimony, one of Johnson's assailants punched him in the face, knocking him out cold. They tossed his unconscious body into the back of a pickup and dumped him by the side of a dirt road, on top of a mound of stinging fire ants.

Johnson, who family members say functioned at the level of a 12-year-old before the attack, was in a coma for a week. He suffered a brain hemorrhage that slurred his speech, weakened his legs and deprived him of his ability to take care of himself. His body was covered with hundreds of painful ant bites.

Today he lives on public assistance, confined to a nursing home in nearby Texarkana, where his family fears he will have to remain for the rest of his life.

The four young white men convicted of various charges in the incident are confined in the county jail, but not for long. A judge last month sentenced three of the four to terms of 30 days in jail, and the fourth to 60 days.

Even that, however, was more than the jurors who heard two of the cases thought appropriate: They acquitted the defendants of the most serious charges and recommended no jail time at all.

<snip>

But to many whites here, the incident was simply a story of some "good ole boys" drinking too much and getting out of hand.

Here's what the esteemed mayor of Bumfuck had to say:
"It was a very unfortunate and senseless thing," said Wilford Penny, 73, who last month completed a 6-year term as Linden's mayor. "But I don't think there was anything racial about it. These guys were drinking, and this guy (Johnson) liked to dance. I'm not surprised when they get to drinking and use the n-word. The black boy was somewhere he shouldn't have been, although they brought him out there."
"The black boy was somewhere he shouldn't have been?" What the fuck? A mentally retarded man with the mental age of a 12 year old is brought to this place by the criminals and the mayor thinks it's his own fault for being there? No wonder he's the mayor.

It seems this town has had other incidents before:
There was the case in 1994 when a black man who had been dating a white woman was found dead from a gunshot to the groin. And another in 2001, when a black man who had been dating a white woman was found hanging from a tree. Local officials ruled the first case a hunting accident and the second a suicide, despite the persistent doubts of family members and civil rights officials.

"There are a few areas in Texas that have kind of bypassed the civil rights era," said Gary Bledsoe, president of the Texas branch of the NAACP. "Linden is one of those. It's an island of the `50s up there."
No hate crime charges were pressed in the current case because the authorities decided (despite the testimony of witnesses that the victim was subjected to racial taunts and references to the KKK) that he was victimized because of his mental disability instead of his race:
"This was a bunch of guys who were mean-spirited and cruel, and they abused a black man who was retarded," said Malcolm Bales, chief of the criminal division in the U.S. attorney's office in Marshall, Texas, which covers Cass County. "That's terrible. But it doesn't give rise to a federal civil rights case."
So I guess hate crimes are ok if you do it to retarded people.

The most maddening quote for me came from tehs tupid bitch mother of one of the perps:
Most of the defendants' families declined requests for interviews about the case. But Martha Howell, Hicks' mother, said her son never touched Johnson and didn't deserve to be punished.

"These boys' names are ruined for life," Howell said. "And (Johnson) is better off today than he's ever been in his life. He roamed the streets, the family never knew where he was. Now in the nursing home he's got someone to take care of him."

That is not how Johnson sees it.

As he sat recently in the cramped, stuffy room he shares with another nursing home patient, idly thumbing some faded photos of old junk cars he'd like someday to restore, Johnson was asked how he's feeling these days.

"I want to go home," he said emphatically, in his only words intelligible to a visitor. "Home."
I don't want to generalize anything into a sweeping judgement of the south or of Texas but fucking Christ on a stick what else can you say about this one town and how many other nasty little small town pockets like this one still fester in the armpits of Dixie?

[silenus]

Well, when I am God Emperor of the World, I know just where to resume nuclear testing. That place is a waste of space.

[askeptic]

Christ can you guys over generalize a little more. This is how racism starts. You take the actions of a few individuals and generalize to the whole town. Good going fucknuts....

[Stuffy]

As a black man who has heavily travelled these United States, I can attest that just off the beaten path, you'll find towns like this just about anywhere.

P.S. I thought Bumfuck was in Idaho.

[Spavined Gelding]

You take the actions of a few individuals and generalize to the whole town. Good going fucknuts....


Except, of course, that the whole town seems to accept it. Note that the jury, the conscience of the community, acquitted on the serious charges (I assume some sort of felony assault and battery), convicted on minor or lesser included charges and recommended no jail time. I suspect that it is fair to conclude that this community regards the life of a Black Man to be of no value. I also suspect, given the way the Texas trial and appeals judges are selected, that the whole community would not have accepted any more severe a punishment.

This is not the way racism starts, it is the way racism is preserved.

That there may be many communities with this mind set is no reason to think that this particular instance should not be roundly condemned.

What do you suppose are the chances of a federal civil rights violation prosecution.

[Waterman]

Christ can you guys over generalize a little more. This is how racism starts. You take the actions of a few individuals and generalize to the whole town. Good going fucknuts....
A few individuals, please give me a F****** break. We're talking about the group of youth's who committed the crime, at least some of their relatives, the Mayor, the people on the jury (another 12), and other residents discussed in the OP out of a town of 2,220 people (2000 Census)

Add to that the previous murders and the resulting justice and I'd say you have a pretty strong case that the town fits the OP's "generalization" and I've certainly been to more than my fair share of similar towns that fit the description (and they are not limited to either Texas or the South).

[askeptic]

I think the situation as described is dispicable and that the racist bastards should be hung. What I take exception to is painting the whole town with the racist brush. The jury is not the conscience of the community it is merely twelve fucktards. One poster advocated nuclear testing in the whole town. not on the racist bastards but the whole fucking town. Tell me how thats different than bumfuck racist saying all niggers are X.

[Fionn]

I'm tempted to contact my Texas state representatives and inquire about the feasability of adding the mentally and physically disabled to the protected classes under hate crimes bills. I've given up hope of sexual orientation being added, but surely even Texas state reps can get behind stricter punishment for bastards who target the mentally retarded.

[Duke of Rat]

One poster advocated nuclear testing in the whole town. not on the racist bastards but the whole fucking town. Tell me how thats different than bumfuck racist saying all niggers are X.

Well, it's OK to advocate that if it's Texas.

[pravnik]

Jesus Christ, that's just bizzare. They should have been convicted of aggravated assault, 2-20, they should have gotten prison time, and if it'd happened here, they undoubtably would have. Ordinarily, you just don't go beating mentally retarded people into comas and throwing them in anthills and skate with probation, even in Texas.

[jimpatro]

Well, there are pockets of humanity dispersed throughout the state so tactical nulear weapons would be okay to target the fuckheads.

[DeadlyAccurate]

I lived in Cass County from the time I was six until I graduated at 18. I don't know if I've ever been in Linden except to pass through it, but not all of us from small east Texas towns are like that.

I know silenus was just being facetious (I mean, really; God Emperor of the World? I find that a little hard to believe. Where's the megamaniacal laugh?), but talking about annihilation of an entire area means blaming everyone for the actions of some.

I hope the NAACP is successful in getting more charges against those guys, and I hope they go to prison for a long time.

[Jackmannii]

I'm tempted to contact my Texas state representatives and inquire about the feasability of adding the mentally and physically disabled to the protected classes under hate crimes bills. I've given up hope of sexual orientation being added, but surely even Texas state reps can get behind stricter punishment for bastards who target the mentally retarded.And what happens when a hate crime charge goes before the same morally retarded jury?

[Fionn]

Those people might be beyond hope.

[pravnik]

The sad thing is, they probably were charged with injury to a disabled individual, a third degree felony with a range of 2-10 years if it causes "injury" rather than "serious bodily injury." They just didn't get convicted, or didn't get enough time.

[Revtim]

P.S. I thought Bumfuck was in Idaho.Maybe you're thinking of Assboink, Idaho.

[Zoe]

What happened in that community was horribly cruel. The four young people involved should have been tried as adults if they had not arrived at majority. The decision of the jury was shameful. The mayor's words are inexcusable.

I remember what it was like to live in a segregated Southern town of 2,000 and to know the extremes of opinions on the issues of race. To paint this entire white community as being of one mind is ignorant. It is just as ignorant as those who portray all Americans as war-mongers.

Why is racism always relegated to the "Old South" when it occurs in the South, but when it happens on Long Island or in Massachusetts, it is never "Old New England" racism or "Old New York" racism?

Nothing can excuse the brutality of racism wherever it has existed or still exists. Slavery existed in NYC for over two hundred years. How long did it last in the South? Which state released its slaves first -- Delaware or Tennessee? The South was on the wrong side when it supported slavery during the Civil War. But the Union states had also supported slavery only a generation or two before. How morally superior does that make them and their descendants?

Bigotry is ugly in all of its forms, DtC. That includes bigotry against Southerns. What have you done in your life personally to atone for the evils of racism and the perpetuation of stereotypes? When push comes to shove, isn't that what makes the real difference?

[DrDeth]

Christ can you guys over generalize a little more. This is how racism starts. You take the actions of a few individuals and generalize to the whole town. Good going fucknuts....

Ok, who in that town spoke out against that racist and ignorant Mayor, those racist goons that did the attacks, or condemned the Jury for a too lenient verdict? I mean- if you can show me an editorial, a proets, a recall movement, or something similar- I'll cut the town some slack, and agree it wasn't representative of the town. But if only a few did the bad thing, but a few more supported them- and no one spoke out against it- then that condemns them all- as moral cowards at the very least.

[DrDeth]

a proets.

That's "protest". :smack:

[coffeecat]

Just because our society is touchy about bigotry doesn't mean it's the only evil there is, or the worst. These good ole boys brutally assaulted someone weaker than themselves, giving him permanent brain damage, because they thought it was funny. I find that a repulsive act of bullying, and I don't care if Mr. Johnson was black or a direct descendent of Myles fucking Standish.

[Zoe]

DrDeth: But if only a few did the bad thing, but a few more supported them- and no one spoke out against it- then that condemns them all- as moral cowards at the very least.

May it was a few or maybe it was a majority that supported or encouraged the racist attitude. But we have no way of knowing who or how many spoke out against it or condemns such conduct unless the press covers it.

Further, small town newspapers can be very selective about which side they print.

I'm not from that particular community or that state. Just consider this an "editorial" from an eleventh generation Southerner who has tried to do my part to make things better.

[Largo62]

Did everybody miss the kidnapping, or is the Texas law much more lax than California's? Here if you take a person from point A to point B against his will you have committed kidnapping. That young man didn't end up "where he shouldn't have been" on his own volition. That's kidnapping, plain and simple.

This town is an outrage to decency. But Stuffy makes a good point. Bigotry isn't found only in Texas.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Bigotry is ugly in all of its forms, DtC. That includes bigotry against Southerns. What have you done in your life personally to atone for the evils of racism and the perpetuation of stereotypes? When push comes to shove, isn't that what makes the real difference?
I'm originally from Lousiana, Zoe, Shreveport to be exact, maybe an hour's drive from Cass County Texas. I've lived in the deep south, I know what it's like and I specifically said I didn't want to generalize about all, or even most, southerners. But I also know damn well that there are little towns and pockets here and there that are considered more "redneck" than most, places that are sort of considered to be not so safe for black folks. As recently as the 80's my hometown of Shreveport held the dubious honor of being the most segregated city in the US. I can remember as recently as the mid 80's, the area of the city casually referred to as "Niggertown" by many (not all) white people, where the paved roads stopped and there were trailers and shacks parked along dirt roads.

I have relatives from down there who say the n-word and complain about white women dating black men. I know that this crap still exists down there, that many people still feel comfortable about espousing racist views and language in front of strangers.

In the larger cities, the majority of whites have outgrown that stuff and are embarrassed and disgusted by the idiots who haven't, but it's not completely gone and if you know where to look you can find some whole reservoirs of it in little nooks and crannies.

And yes, you can find it up north as well. There's a modest white supremacist movement in the midwest and I've encountered it in rural North Dakota. I guess the difference between this kind of racism and what I called "Old South" racism, is that in places like North Dakota it's almost completely theoretical since there aren't any black people. It's part of a disenfranchised ideology and it's completely diseased, but it isn't part of a longstanding tradition of practice like it is in the south.

[elelle]

I'm a transplant Southerner, and give good quarter to the complexity of race issues.

But this, from, Diogenes' link:
"As the party wound down after midnight, evidence showed, Christopher Colt Amox, who was 20 at the time, punched Johnson in the mouth, toppling him to the ground. As Johnson lay unconscious, vomiting and gagging, Amox and three other young men - James Cory Hicks, then 24; Dallas Chadwick Stone, then 18; and John Wesley Owens, then 19 - debated whether to call an ambulance, authorities said. Instead, they loaded Johnson into a pickup truck and drove him 2 miles down a little-used dirt road, tossing him next to a public dump, on top of the nest of fire ants."

leaves me speechless. Mr Johnson was injured enough that the good ole boys even "debated" to call for medical help, and*chose* to dump him in the middle of nowhere. That's the hinge of their fate, and that decision is one of, if not hatred, cruelty based on incomprehension of humanity. I hope this case is brought up and tried again, set up as an example. It's disgusting on so many levels.

[AWB]

P.S. I thought Bumfuck was in Idaho.

There are "Bumfuck"s in almost every state. :) :)

[Guinastasia]

Am I the only one who thinks it's even more horrifying that they may have picked on him for being retarded, rather than because he was black? Because, from what they say, they took someone who's pretty much a permanent 12 year old boy. (NOT that I'm condoning racism, just that to pick on someone who's retarded and not as able to fight back is pretty damned psychotic).

[andros]

Just consider this an "editorial" from an eleventh generation Southerner who has tried to do my part to make things better.

I can't claim eleven generations, but my family fought for Marse Bobby and later worked at Stratford Hall (as recently as 1980 my grandfather ran the mill at the plantation and my Nana the kitchens--great googly, that was a fine place to be a kid).

AFAIC, by condemning that town and all who live in it, I'm also doing my part. Until I see the people of Linden rise up against hatred and injustice I will happily call each and every one of them complicit.

[Steve MB]

surely even Texas state reps can get behind stricter punishment for bastards who target the mentally retarded
If only out of self-interest.

[Little Nemo]

I'm going to have to go with a big "fuck you" to Linden, Texas. There may be a few other towns in this nation where four peckerheads might beat a retarded man into a coma and dump his body on an ant pile. But I doubt there's too many towns where the mayor would publically defend the bastards and blame the victim for getting himself kidnapped in the first place.

[Road Rash]

I think Don Henly's home town is Lindon, Tx.

[Barely Adequate]

This town is an outrage to decency. But Stuffy makes a good point. Bigotry isn't found only in Texas.

True perhaps... but it just seems that it is found in Texas so much more frequently and egregiously.

-Richard

[betenoir]

I think the situation as described is dispicable and that the racist bastards should be hung. What I take exception to is painting the whole town with the racist brush. The jury is not the conscience of the community it is merely twelve fucktards. One poster advocated nuclear testing in the whole town. not on the racist bastards but the whole fucking town. Tell me how thats different than bumfuck racist saying all niggers are X.

Oh give me a break. First of all it should be pretty obvious that silenus (aka God Emporor of the World) was engaging in hyperbole. Secondly, as noted, it's not that there were twelve fucktards who did something violent and racist but that the entire mechanism of civilazation that is supposed to protect people from violent and racist acts failed to do so, apparently for racist reasons. Encluding the mayor, who was the chosen representative of the majority of voters in the town.

I would never say that every person in the town was racist, but I would say the racisim there seems to be systemic and institutionalized. Which seems a good enough reason to say "That town is fucked". And yes that is different than saying all niggers are X.

[ScoobyTX]

I think Don Henly's home town is Lindon, Tx.
Don Henley was born in Gilmer, which isn't too far from Linden (about 40 miles).

[ScoobyTX]

[self-correction]but he (Don Henley) did live in Linden before moving to LA[/self-correction]

[Dag Otto]

Why is racism always relegated to the "Old South" when it occurs in the South, but when it happens on Long Island or in Massachusetts, it is never "Old New England" racism or "Old New York" racism?




Just a guess, but might it have something to do with the fucktards who insist on flying the Confederate battle flag? For the most part, you find them in the South. It's a symbol of the racism of the past, so it's not such a stretch to make the connection. Oh, the flag is also a symbol of the South? Too fucking bad, it's tainted with racism. People can pick on the South because the South is genuinely fucked up.

[Zoe]

Dag, what percentage of Southerners fly the Confederate battle flag?

[Zoe]

People of color are more likely than whites to live in conditions that are hazardous to their health. This is known as "environmental racism." It may not be as easy to notice as a predominately racist community or a hate crime. But it is just as destructive and very, very widespread.

In New Mexico farm workers are exposed to toxic pesticides that can result in birth defects, nerve disorders, cancer, and even death. In some areas such as South Dakota, companies responsible for waste disposal are trying to get around tight regulations by contracting with Native Indian Reservations for dumping.

Environmental racism (http://www.wcc-coe.org/wcc/what/jpc/echoes/echoes-17-02.html)

Do something.

[Coffee Manic]

This is a very interesting part of the world to live in. If this were a Stephen King novel, I'd swear that something lives deep under the earth here.

Linden has long been a nest of racism. This isn't the first (nor anywhere near) crime against a black person that has been winked at by the local authorities. Two very good examples were cited by Diogenes the Cynic in the first post.

Also mentioned by Diogenes the Cynic, Shreveport, LA. The racism there has escalated over recent years to what I consider police sanctioned murder. The killing by the police of cellphone-wielding Marquise Hudspeth (http://www.nwlouisiana.com/photogalleries/police_shooting_photos/index.shtml) in Shreveport's sister city of Bossier underscores what goes on there almost weekly. As a side note, whites were asked by the organizers not to attend the city-wide memorial services which followed the funeral.

A tourist town, Jefferson, lies just a few miles south of Linden. It has a huge population of Seventh Day Adventists. My car needed a jumpstart in Jefferson once, and I had the hood up and the cables connected to my battery, waiting for someone to offer a hand. A man approached me, asked about my car. Nodded a couple of times, then asked if I eat meat. When I stammered out an affirmative, he walked away, got into his truck and drove off. While certainly not on par with murder or assault, it does show the "Us against Them" mentality that is so prevalent in this area.

Gilmer, TX. Gained national attention after the disappearance of a young girl and the real life witch hunt (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=5th&navby=case&no=9941297cv0) that followed, as documented in the Dateline feature "A Touch of Evil" (http://earthops.org/cult/gilmer-tx.html).

All in all, a very disturbing place.

[DeadlyAccurate]

Also mentioned by Diogenes the Cynic, Shreveport, LA. The racism there has escalated over recent years to what I consider police sanctioned murder. The killing by the police of cellphone-wielding Marquise Hudspeth (http://www.nwlouisiana.com/photogalleries/police_shooting_photos/index.shtml) in Shreveport's sister city of Bossier underscores what goes on there almost weekly. As a side note, whites were asked by the organizers not to attend the city-wide memorial services which followed the funeral.

I've seen all three of the police car videos of this shooting, and if I remember how this went down, the guy turned around and pointed something silver at the officers. There's one squad car that was positioned that caught the fact that this man turned around and angrily pointed his cellphone at them, in a manner that could easily be construed by edgy officers as pointing a weapon. Because he was backlit by the convenience store, and because it was night, it would be very easy to mistake a silver cellphone as a gun. Especially after a) engaging the police in a high-speed chase, b) pulling away from the officers and acting belligerant (he was drunk), and c) refusing to stop when ordered to by the police.

I have no doubt that racism is still alive and well in Shreveport, nor that the police force might be (I hesitate to say a definite 'is/was') engaging in racial profiling, especially of young black men, but it seems this case might have been merely a coincidence that came after a string of potentially legitimate police incidents. Even the US Justice Dept. cleared the officers.

Here (http://www.heavygravity.com/article.php/20030607145054859) is a site with two of the three videos. The third video link didn't work for me, for some reason.

[Harborwolf]

I watched two of those videos Deadly, and neither one really exonerates the police.

From the camera pov, it's a little hard to tell what he was pointing though it looked closer to the noisy cricket from MIB than a handgun. The police were a good deal closer to the suspect than the cameras and should've been able to tell that it was a phone.

Also, they shot him in the back as he was walking away. He wasn't running, power walking, or speed walking. He was just walking.

IMHO, he could've been subdued. Lethal force was not called for.

[LonesomePolecat]

Just a guess, but might it have something to do with the fucktards who insist on flying the Confederate battle flag? For the most part, you find them in the South. It's a symbol of the racism of the past, so it's not such a stretch to make the connection. Oh, the flag is also a symbol of the South? Too fucking bad, it's tainted with racism. People can pick on the South because the South is genuinely fucked up.
Actually, the lenient sentences seem to have more to do with rich kids whose families have political connections than it does with racial animosity.

And I have no doubt there were U.S. flags flying somewhere in the town, too, if no where else than the local post office. If you're looking for an excuse to hate Southerners, you'll find one, no matter how pathetic and weak it may be. And clearly you're looking for one.

[DeadlyAccurate]

From the camera pov, it's a little hard to tell what he was pointing though it looked closer to the noisy cricket from MIB than a handgun. The police were a good deal closer to the suspect than the cameras and should've been able to tell that it was a phone.

And yet, when he turned around and pointed his phone at the officer again, the officer ducked, instinctively, as if he feared being shot. The man was probably saying something to the effect of, "I'm on the phone," or "It's just a phone," but it's a very, very bad idea to point anything at police officers who have guns pointed at you.

I wish I could find that third video, because I seem to recall that the officers fired at him once to wound, and he didn't even flinch, before they killed him. But since I can't find any evidence of that, even in print, I may be misremembering.

It's been over a year since I saw these videos (until today), and I wanna think that at the time I remember watching two of the videos and thinking the police shot a man without exploring all the options, but when I saw the third video my mind was changed. Unfortunately, since I can't find a third video, anything I say is possibly just a bad memory inventing facts.

It was definitely a tragedy. His crimes (drunk and driving erratically at high speeds and running red lights) didn't warrant the death penalty, but it's possible the officers genuinely felt they had no choice and his race didn't even enter their minds.

I guess what I'm trying clumsily to say (there's a reason I stay out of GD) is that I don't think the shooting of Hudspeth is necessarily an example of Old South racism.

[eleanorigby]

I think we should stop calling these people "good ole boys", no?

Yeah- I know all about the complex subtexts that that phrase can engender. :rolleyes:

Too bad.

In my mind as from now, "good ole boy" =racist(and every other kind of -ist), violent, ignorant asshole. Oh, wait--it always meant that, really.


I am speechless as to the ruling in this case --these people are in a deranged time warp. My stomach is churning at this story.

[Spiff]

If only out of self-interest.
Best chuckle of the day, so far. :D

You do know the Texas Lege, don't you?

[Spiff]

I seem to recall that the officers fired at him once to wound, and he didn't even flinch, before they killed him.FYI, officers never shoot to wound. When they draw their guns and fire them, it's always with an intent to kill.

That's why they are only supposed to shoot their guns when there is a clear and immediate danger to their lives.

What you saw (or remember you saw) may have been a bullet that hit the guy in the leg or arm, and therefore did end up just wounding him, but if the cop firing the shot was doing as he was trained to do, he was aiming at the guy's torso.

[DeadlyAccurate]

Sorry for the continued hijack.

Finally found a site with all three videos (2 & 3 with sound), so everyone can make up their own minds. http://nationalcenterforpoliceaccountability.org/MarquiseHudspeth.html

OK, the sequence of events as I best understand them after the chase:

1) Hudspeth pulls into the convenience store lot. You can hear yelling in the third video, though I'm not sure what they're saying.

2) The officer points a gun at his head. Hudspeth pulls away from him and points his cell phone at another officer in a two-handed shooter's stance. That officer fires two shots at him, though I don't know if it was to wound or warn.

3) Hudspeth keeps walking, followed by the officers with their guns trained on him. He turns again, pointing his phone at the officer on the left, who ducks.

4) Another officer opens fire, followed immediately by ducking officer. They shoot until Hudspeth drops.

I would be interested in hearing from others who disagree with my conclusions, though. If the OP would rather I start a new thread, let me know.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Speaking of Shreveport, I remember a case around '84 or '85 where a little white girl was taken away from a black foster family who had raised her for years and wanted to adopt her because it was felt that it would be inappropriate for a white kid to be raised by black parents. There was no pretense as to any other reason. I believe the case got covered on 60 Minutes and it was a topic of genuine debate in Lousiana at the time. It was discussed on the local news and by the the public as if there were actually two sides to the story. It's been a long time and I've forgotten most of the details, but I do remember seeing the girl interviewed on the news begging to be allowed to stay with her "mama" and hearing some white people cluck about how the girl was "talking black" and needed to be placed with a white family so she could "learn how to act."

Some of those people were related to me, unfortunately.

Of course, there was never any concern about black kids being adopted by white families

[DeadlyAccurate]

Did the little girl get returned to her parents?

[tdn]

A man approached me, asked about my car. Nodded a couple of times, then asked if I eat meat. When I stammered out an affirmative, he walked away, got into his truck and drove off.
I think I'm missing something here. Perhaps it is my own bigotry and prejudices at work, but when I think of good ol' boy racist Texas rednecks, the Vegan lifestyle is not uppermost in my mind. Was the guy wearing hemp sandals?

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Did the little girl get returned to her parents?
I actually don't know. I went off to Florida for Basic Training while the story was still going on and I never managed to get a follow up. I believe she got placed with a white family at least temporarily but I never learned what happened after that. Maybe somebody else remembers the story. It's something I've always wondered about.

[Metacom]

I think I'm missing something here.
The Seventh Day Adventists are a conservative Christian religious denomination with some quirks, one of which is vegetarianism (although not veganism, AFAIK).

[LonesomePolecat]

Of course, there was never any concern about black kids being adopted by white families
Well, perhaps not in Shreveport, but there have been cases of black children being removed arbitrarily from white foster and/or adoptive parents for racial reasons. The National Association of Black Social Workers (can you imagine the uproar if someone tried to organize a National Association of White Social Workers?) once condemned interracial adoptions and may still.

[tdn]

The Seventh Day Adventists are a conservative Christian religious denomination with some quirks, one of which is vegetarianism (although not veganism, AFAIK).
Ah. For a moment there, I had a vision of a fat redneck in a tie-dyed shirt in a red pickup saying "Send the n*****s back to Africa, man. Love the Earth, man."

Continuing to entertain this image would have resulted in a stroke for sure. Man.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Ok, who in that town spoke out against that racist and ignorant Mayor, those racist goons that did the attacks, or condemned the Jury for a too lenient verdict?

From the article:
"There's people down here doing things to dogs, and they get more than a year in prison," said Lue Wilson, 58, Johnson's cousin and legal guardian. "You'll never get a jury in Cass County to convict a white man for doing something to a black man."
...
The Texarkana Gazette, the biggest newspaper in the region, wrote an editorial last month criticizing the light sentences imposed on Johnson's attackers.

"Sad to say," the paper wrote, "most of us agree that if the circumstances were reversed - if four blacks had perpetrated this crime on a white person - things would have turned out differently."
...
"I think it's unfair to the county to make it a total black-and-white issue," said Tina Richardson, the assistant district attorney who prosecuted the case and Cass County's only black lawyer. "I know the stigma at this point is that in Cass County it looks like whites are greatly prejudiced against blacks. But you have good and bad no matter what area of the country you're living in.

"There were just as many if not more whites who were displeased at the outcome" of the Johnson case as were content with it, Richardson added.


So yeah--people in town spoke out against it. Especially the black people in town, whom, I notice, are getting ignored in the question of whether this town should be condemned.

When you condemn a town for its violence against black people, don't forget that the town is made up of black and white people, and that you're condemning them all.

(Note also that the jury had three black members. I don't know what that means, but it's interesting to me).

Daniel

[holmes]

It may mean they realized if they didn't go with the party line, they too may find themselves on an Anthill...

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Yeah, holmes, that occurred to me as well. Or it may mean that according to jury instructions, the case didn't rise to felony level. Or it may mean that they're a bunch of self-haters. Or it could mean that the victim was a real jerk, and small-town attitudes took over, with jurors deciding he got what was coming to him.

Given the fact that the jury recommended suspended sentences, and the judge overruled them to provide some jailtime for the criminals, I'm guessing that the problem wasn't with jury instructions (but I could be wrong). Dunno whether they black folks on the jury were intimidated, or if they genuinely believe that what was done wasn't that bad.

Daniel

[Diogenes the Cynic]

There were two different juries and a total of three jurors were black but the story doesn't say how they were split up. It's not hard to believe that a lone black juror, or even two, might feel intimidated enough to go along with a couple of soft convictions. Especially since black folks have been known to be found shot dead or hanging from trees in that same town.

[Emony Dax]

Zoe said:

what percentage of Southerners fly the Confederate battle flag?

In my current town, just south of Austin, there was a sizeable protest when a few years ago the school district finally forbade the display of the Confederate flag at school functions. The school teams are known as the Rebels.

I've lived in Texas my whole life. My dad still used the n-word until my sister-in-law finally had the guts to tell him to stop saying it in front of her kids. Good on her, bad on me for not being brave enough to do it myself :( It was perfectly acceptable for his generation to use that word and to view blacks as second-class citizens. I have never, ever heard anyone from my generation use that word; the worst I've heard was a whispered reference to "that colored girl" from a 7 year old classmate in south Texas. My point is, the culture down here is shifting, albeit slowly and reluctently in some cases, but it is changing. I hope by the time my kids have kids Texas will no longer be hated and reviled as a place of racial intolerance.

[Askia]

Texarkana Gazette News Story (http://www.texarkanagazette.com/articles/2005/06/02/local_news/news/news03.txt) "A Cass County jury last month decided not to convict Hicks of aggravated assault and injury to a disabled person for the September 2003 beating of Billy Ray Johnson, 44, of Linden. The mostly white jury also rejected prosecutors' claim that the beating-at the prompting of Hicks to codefendant Christopher Colt Amox-was racially motivated."


Texarkana Gazette Editorial (http://www.texarkanagazette.com/articles/2005/05/14/local_news/opinion/opinions01.txt) "The defendants and their supporters undoubtedly will find doing any time to be harsh. Yet, they will be free again in a few weeks, to pick up their lives where they left off.

Johnson had a good measure of freedom until he was punched in the head, then dumped without any immediate medical care. Now he needs help to walk, talk and take care of his daily needs.

Before the pasture party, he was restricted only by the limitations of his mind. Now he is further shackled by the injuries he sustained at the hands of the first offenders.

That situation make us deaf to the whining of the white boys."

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

There were two different juries and a total of three jurors were black

Are you sure they were two different juries? It reads to me as if one jury tried all the charges. (Obviously, I may be missing something).

Daniel

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Are you sure they were two different juries? It reads to me as if one jury tried all the charges. (Obviously, I may be missing something).

Daniel
From the linked story:
The jurors in those cases, three of whom were black, acquitted Amox and Hicks of aggravated assault. Amox was convicted of misdemeanor assault, and Hicks was convicted of injury to a disabled person by omission.

Both juries recommended suspended sentences and probation as punishment. But District Judge Ralph Burgess, using his authority to impose additional jail time, last month sentenced Owens, Stone and Amox to 30 days in jail, and sentenced Hicks to 60 days.
Like I said, the story implies a total of three jurors but doesn't say they were all on the same jury.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

I see what you're saying: it does sound like two different juries, but doesn't explicitly say that. Fair point; carry on!
Daniel

[mhendo]

Yeah, holmes, that occurred to me as well. Or it may mean that according to jury instructions, the case didn't rise to felony level. Or it may mean that they're a bunch of self-haters. Or it could mean that the victim was a real jerk, and small-town attitudes took over, with jurors deciding he got what was coming to him.A "real jerk"?

I thought the victim was a "mentally retarded man" who functioned "at the level of a twelve-year-old." In my opinion, the question of his being a jerk isn't even worth asking.

[byomtoob]

In the original article on this in the printed Chicago Tribune, there was a picture of the local post office. Right above the entry way was a mural of cotton-picking slaves.

The USPS was quoted as saying "they have no plans" to remove the mural!

[UnwrittenNocturne]

People of color are more likely than whites to live in conditions that are hazardous to their health. This is known as "environmental racism." It may not be as easy to notice as a predominately racist community or a hate crime. But it is just as destructive and very, very widespread.

In New Mexico farm workers are exposed to toxic pesticides that can result in birth defects, nerve disorders, cancer, and even death. In some areas such as South Dakota, companies responsible for waste disposal are trying to get around tight regulations by contracting with Native Indian Reservations for dumping.

Environmental racism (http://www.wcc-coe.org/wcc/what/jpc/echoes/echoes-17-02.html)

Do something.

Zoe, pointing out that bad shit happens elsewhere does not negate it happening here. I am not entirely sure where you are, but I see that fucking shitrag flying every single day. Not just as a flag but on cars, shirts and tattoos. It is, simply, repulsive.

A friend of mine moved here from N.C. He is married to a white girl. You better believe they have noticed a lot of shit since being here. N.C. was no picnic, but they say this is much worse.

The South has a reputation. Because it is deserved. Not everyone thinks in racist terms here. But the majority do. Many of them do not even know they are doing it.

A few quotes I have heard - from seemingly nice people

"Date a black guy and you had better never come home again" (from a teacher to her daughter)

"N****-lover" to me from a recent high-school grad. Someone I though was intelligent and beyond this

"We ought to segregate schools again" Another highschooler. This one very intelligent.

It is not dying out in the South like it should. These attitudes are perpetuated each generation. They come from family and from churches. Yes, churches. Many actively discourage African-Americans from joining and suggest they might be better off "with their own kind" (whateverthefuck that means).

You need to stop being so defensive and admit that we have a problem here and that it is not going away.

I can imagine plenty of Alabama towns where what happened in the OP could happen.

[Liberal]

Thank goodness we have places like Minneapolis (http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/The_National_Socialist_Movement.asp?LEARN_Cat=Extremism&LEARN_SubCat=Extremism_in_America&xpicked=3&item=nsm) to counteract places like Texas and Alabama.

[LouisB]

I've said, on this board, that one of the main reasons I had for leaving Texas in 1963 was the blatant bigotry and racial hatred that was virtually institutional there. This incident is typical of that attitude, even if the result is not. I didn't understand racism then and I don't understand it now. I hope and believe racism is less prevalent now; obviously it still exists in places.

[dropzone]

Thank goodness we have places like Minneapolis (http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/The_National_Socialist_Movement.asp?LEARN_Cat=Extremism&LEARN_SubCat=Extremism_in_America&xpicked=3&item=nsm) to counteract places like Texas and Alabama.The difference, as you know but have chosen to ignore, is that those Nazi creeps in Minneapolis are a miniscule minority while the rebel flag waving creeps are, if not a majority down south, a substantial minority.

[LonesomePolecat]

[QUOTE=dropzone]The difference, as you know but have chosen to ignore, is that those Nazi creeps in Minneapolis are a miniscule minority ... QUOTE]
Yeah, sure they are. You're aware that the midwest, not the southeast, was pretty much the real stronghold of the Ku Klux Klan in the 20th century? You're aware that at one time the Klan pretty much owned the state government of Indiana? You're aware the American Nazi party has its HQ in Illinois?

[Askia]

Unlike the midwesterners, southerners have historically never had much of a problem with overt, flagrant displays of racism as a matter of public record, law or tradition, or politicians running as segregationists, or having the Klan rally to uphold Jim Crow laws and disenfranchisement, or excusing mob violence. Numerically you can look at the south as being a trendsetter and holdout in this regard.

I suppose its a matter of what is seen as decorum.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

And they're still a miniscule minority.

Lib, if you read your own cite, you'll see that the organization you linked to typically has less than 200 members nationwide. I can't find a membership figure for the "headquarters" in Minneapolis but given that the entire 200 member population is stretched out between 38 chapters across the country the average chapter membership would appear to be less than 5 idiots per chapter. Even if we double that in Minneapolis,we'd still have less than a dozen members. I'd hardly call that any sort of significant indication about anything within the larger metro population.

A few years ago, I remember a miserable attempt at a demonstration atthe Capitol in St. Paul by these buttheads. IIRC there were maybe 10 or 12 uniformed demonstrators, maybe 20 or 30 sympathizers and several hundred vocal anti-racists staging a counter-protest. The White Power movement isn't exactly thriving in the Twin Cities (but you can find it if you drive west into the barren rural areas of North Dakota and Montana).

[dropzone]

Yeah, sure they are. You're aware that the midwest, not the southeast, was pretty much the real stronghold of the Ku Klux Klan in the 20th century? You're aware that at one time the Klan pretty much owned the state government of Indiana? You're aware the American Nazi party has its HQ in Illinois?Why yes, I am aware of all of those things. I am also aware of a certain amount of racism still endemic in the Midwest. I am also aware that the period of Klan strength in the Midwest was 80 years ago and that it was disbanded in 1944, sixty-one years ago, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan) and can hardly be used against the modern Midwest (though other groups have used the name since then). And the American Nazi Party (http://www.meta-religion.com/Extremism/White_extremism/American_nazi_party/american_nazi_party.htm) is headquartered in Eastpointe, Michigan, not Illinois. Still the upper midwest, but see Dio's post about "miniscule minorities."

[dropzone]

I suppose its a matter of what is seen as decorum.Absolutely! There are some things you just don't DO in public. Kissing your spouse and burning a cross on your neighbor's lawn are just two of them.

[MaxTheVool]

Trying to get an otherwise reasonable, and personally non-racist, southerner to admit that there's more racism in the south than in other parts of the country is like pulling Superman's teeth.

[Liberal]

Trying to get an otherwise reasonable, and personally non-racist, southerner to admit that there's more racism in the south than in other parts of the country is like pulling Superman's teeth.Or like not reading the FBI's Hate Crimes Statistics Report (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/03hc.pdf) for 2003 for racially motivated hate crimes, with 154 in Texas and 152 in Minnesotta.

[LindyHopper]

Trying to get an otherwise reasonable, and personally non-racist, southerner to admit that there's more racism in the south than in other parts of the country is like pulling Superman's teeth.True, although it depends on what you mean by the phrase "more racism". I would argue that racism in the South is more pervasive and accepted among the community at large, but not that individual racial incidents are more violent or intense.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

A "real jerk"?

I thought the victim was a "mentally retarded man" who functioned "at the level of a twelve-year-old." In my opinion, the question of his being a jerk isn't even worth asking.

On the contrary, understanding the motives of why people do seemingly bizarre things is always worth doing. Three points:

1) He need only be a "real jerk" from the viewpoint of the people on the jury for the payback idea to be true. He could be an "absolute saint" in my eyes or yours, but if those jurors disliked him, it'd explain his behavior.
2) Nothing about being a mentally retarded man who functioned at the level of a twelve-year-old precludes his being a jerk: folks with mental retardation can be every bit as awful or as wonderful as folks without mental retardation.
3) Even if he's the world's biggest loser jerkwad, that's in no way, shape, or form an excuse for having a "he got what's coming to him" attitude. I merely offered it as a hypothesis for why a horrible juror might have let those criminals off so lightly. My other conjectures (that the black jurors buy into the racist attitudes against black people, and that the black jurors were intimidating into going along with the results) stand beside it: none of them excuse the verdict, only attempt to consider explanations for it.

Daniel

[Lamar Mundane]

Trying to get an otherwise reasonable, and personally non-racist, southerner to admit that there's more racism in the south than in other parts of the country is like pulling Superman's teeth.

I agree. I don't know why the denial is so strong. Maybe they don't spend any time outside of the south, and they really don't know that things aren't like that everywhere else.

I travel all over the country and I can't recall ever hearing a racial slur or bigoted remark made to me by a stranger (I'm white) outside of the south. In the deep south/Texas, I often get one before I get out of the airport. People feel it perfectly acceptable to comment to other white people about "those people" or "those kind". There is a very pervasive "us" and 'them" attitude. It just isn't that way in other places.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

He could be an "absolute saint" in my eyes or yours, but if those jurors disliked him, it'd explain his behavior.\

That should read "explain their behavior," not "his." Sorry for any confusion that might cause.

Daniel

[Liberal]

I agree. I don't know why the denial is so strong. Maybe they don't spend any time outside of the south, and they really don't know that things aren't like that everywhere else.

I travel all over the country and I can't recall ever hearing a racial slur or bigoted remark made to me by a stranger (I'm white) outside of the south. In the deep south/Texas, I often get one before I get out of the airport. People feel it perfectly acceptable to comment to other white people about "those people" or "those kind". There is a very pervasive "us" and 'them" attitude. It just isn't that way in other places.Well, since we're sharing anecdotes, the most bigotry I ever encountered was in Philadelphia, Boston, and Minneapolis.

[Liberal]

Uh oh, I think I've been whooshed. Given the lead-thick irony of your statement, Lamar Mundane, it is now obvious to me that you were joking:

There is a very pervasive "us" and 'them" attitude [among those Southerners]. It just isn't that way in other places [among we Northerners].
Good one. :D

[dropzone]

Or like not reading the FBI's Hate Crimes Statistics Report (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/03hc.pdf) for 2003 for racially motivated hate crimes, with 154 in Texas and 152 in Minnesotta.However, this supposes equal reporting of hate crimes in both states. I think the case that inspired this thread demonstrates that an incident that would cause a DA in Minnesota to come down like a ton of bricks is written off as boyish horseplay in Texas.

Have you ever been in Minnesota? Them squareheads don't take no mess and if you fuck around they will haul your ass off to jail. Politely, though. After all, Minnesota is Canada with handguns.

(drop, who has lived in Minnesota, Illinois, and Virginia and has some idea what he's talking about)

[Lamar Mundane]

Well, since we're sharing anecdotes, the most bigotry I ever encountered was in Philadelphia, Boston, and Minneapolis.
The worst bigotry I've encountered was in Wisconsin. The most pervasive bigotry I have encountered in in the deep south. BTW, I shared no anecdotes in my post. Those were impressions. And I'm not a Northerner.

I think I've told you this before - You're so cute when you're condescending.
::pinches Liberal's cheeks::

[dropzone]

The worst bigotry I've encountered was in Wisconsin. The most pervasive bigotry I have encountered in in the deep south.Good and useful distinction.

(drop, who has never met an anecdote he didn't like)

[pullin]

Yeah. Racism is bad here. We try to correct it. Occasionally we get it right (http://www.courttv.com/archive/trials/brewer/092399_pm_sentence_ctv.html)

[Lamar Mundane]

Where did that smiley come from?

According to that Hate Crimes report, Alabama and Mississippi each had only one incident that year. I think the reporting standards vary greatly from state to state, and therefore the data isn't very useful.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

The worst bigotry I've encountered was in Wisconsin.
You must have met one of my odder relatives. Or some of my patients.

[ScoobyTX]

You're aware the American Nazi party has its HQ in Illinois?I hate Illinois Nazis!

[wring]

Where did that smiley come from?

According to that Hate Crimes report, Alabama and Mississippi each had only one incident that year. I think the reporting standards vary greatly from state to state, and therefore the data isn't very useful.

1. the smiley came when you typed : then typed a P right next to it. thusly :P

(;) )

2. not just the reporting (as in to the UCI) standards, but of course, the prosecutional standards as well. As is obvious in the case of the OP, it wasn't sufficient that racial slurs were used and the perps were of a different ethnicity, even though certainly those can be indicators of hate crime.

[ScoobyTX]

Trying to get an otherwise reasonable, and personally non-racist, southerner to admit that there's more racism in the south than in other parts of the country is like pulling Superman's teeth.About like trying to get a Californian to admit that there isn't too much of a difference between the amount of racism in the South and elsewhere.

Yes, you don't see many cross burnings in San Francisco (or NYC, etc.), but there is virulent racism in pockets spread all across the country. It's just not "Old South" racism when a black guy is shot 3 dozen times after being sodomized with a toilet plunger when it happens in New York City.

[wring]

1. the smiley came when you typed : then typed a p right next to it. thusly :p

goddam coding. :smack:

[Coffee Manic]

Trying to get an otherwise reasonable, and personally non-racist, southerner to admit that there's more racism in the south than in other parts of the country is like pulling Superman's teeth.

A personally non-racist Southerner checking in, and I really can't say that there is more racism in the South. It's rampant here in rural Texas, yes, but my personal experience has been that it was just as rampant in Chicago, DC, and Detroit. In the military, where people from all over the country were gathered together, racism was everywhere (a guy in another department was called "boondocker" because he was black and he was a boot [slang for "bootcamp" or a new, inexperienced guy].)

Sorry, Max, but I've seen it all over.



DeadlyAccurate, thanks for the links to the Hudspeth videos.

[Coffee Manic]

People feel it perfectly acceptable to comment to other white people about "those people" or "those kind". There is a very pervasive "us" and 'them" attitude. It just isn't that way in other places.

Personally, I've never heard anyone refer to "those people" or "those kind" when referring to blacks or Mexicans or whatever race is being slurred. People normally just come out and say who they mean, and they're not shy about tossing out the slurs in casual conversation. I have noticed, however, that many, many people who use the slurs are teaching their children not to say them -- mostly, I think, to avoid being embarrassed in public.

Yes, I agree that there is more of an "us and them" attitude in the South than in most other places, but it isn't limited to race. Religion, for instance, is a huge divider. Also, try being a young white man with long hair in many small Southern towns -- you'll hear the sexual slurs, you'll be called names, you'll be detained by the police, and it's very possible that you'll get beaten up. Luckily, that's changing, too, as those who were young adults during the 60s and 70s (damn hippies!) are becoming the community leaders.

[Askia]

??? Since when is "boondocker" a racist term? When I was younger, the boondocks was the distant suburbs or countryside.

[Coffee Manic]

A "boondocker" is the term for the clunky, black utility boots worn by enlisted personnel in the Navy.

When used as a racial slur, someone (often someone from Vermont or California or New York, but just as often someone from Texas or Alabama or Georgia) would generally say something along the lines of "He's a boondocker. Know why? 'Cuz he's black and he's a boot!"

[Askia]

(shakes head) The endless inventive namecalling of white conservatives never ceases to amaze me.

[Zoe]

Unwritten Nocturne: Zoe, pointing out that bad shit happens elsewhere does not negate it happening here.

<snip>

You need to stop being so defensive and admit that we have a problem here and that it is not going away.

Where did I say that racism elsewhere negated racism in the South? To the contrary, did you miss my posts?

What happened in that community was horribly cruel. The four young people involved should have been tried as adults if they had not arrived at majority. The decision of the jury was shameful. The mayor's words are inexcusable.

Nothing can excuse the brutality of racism wherever it has existed or still exists.

Bigotry is ugly in all of its forms.

Just consider this an "editorial" from an eleventh generation Southerner who has tried to do my part to make things better.

What have you done in your life personally to atone for the evils of racism and the perpetuation of stereotypes? When push comes to shove, isn't that what makes the real difference?

Do something.

But I disagree with you that it won't get better. I've watched it get enormously better over the last half century. It's not happening nearly fast enough, but it is easier to see the changes over time.

I'm a Tennessean who married someone from Montgomery. I've seen some of what you are talking about both here in Tennessee and in Alabama. But it is the exception to the rule. I literally cannot remember the last time that I heard a derogatory term used for African-Americans. (I did lose a friend over it long ago.) I know of one person in South Nashville that has a Confederate flag in his yard. I haven't seen any tattoos, but I have seen the occasional bumper sticker or t-shirt. There is a statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest on private property next to the interstate. It is the subject of much ridicule by locals.

I thought that most people from Alabama would be thrilled to have either Shaud or Carnell Williams for dinner -- just not both.

My point has not been that there is no racism in the South. My point has been that when you label racism as "Southern," you tend to ignore the racial discrimination that is elsewhere and you promote a stereotype of the typical Southerner as a racist bigot. That is promoting ignorance.

[Coffee Manic]

White? Conservative?

You are much mistaken.

[Askia]

California + Vermont + Georgia + Alabama + Texas + Navy personnel + "boondocker" as a racial slur = someone who's not a white conservative?

Added up okay to me.

[eleanorigby]

Where in TN? My parents live in Memphis and hear racial shit every day--they are white--my Dad teaches at UT. When I visit, the Confederate flag seems to be everywhere (but then, it stands out for me--I am not used to seeing it on a daily basis).

Not eveyone in the South is racist-not even close. I live near one of the most racially divided cities in America (Chicago)--but even here I don't hear what I do down in Memphis.

An 80 y/o woman MIGHT say(with referring to non-whites as"colored", instead of AA or black)--but sadly, she is more likely to just say "nigger" down in Memphis. Up here, she would more likely say black. Just my experience, which might not be generaliz-able.

[Coffee Manic]

The states were just examples. Could have been from anywhere. Hate to break it to you, but liberals and non-whites don't necessarily have a problem slinging the slurs, either. For many, no morals, no ethics, no political leaning will break the need for the great pecking order to be maintained.

[Zoe]

I live in Nashville now, but I'm originally from a small town in Gibson County -- about a hundred miles north of Memphis. I wonder what makes the difference. I was also in education, but on a high school level.

[Askia]

A pecking order based on seniority or combat experience is acceptable. One based including ethnicity should not -- though I supposed I can see how it might happen.

[Askia]

Gibson county? Zoe!! My father's family are from Milan and Humboldt!

[Coffee Manic]

Oh, I'm certainly not defending it, just saying that -- even in a mix of people from all over the country (and a few foreign countries, too) -- racism survives.

[Nic2004]

Just a guess, but might it have something to do with the fucktards who insist on flying the Confederate battle flag? For the most part, you find them in the South. It's a symbol of the racism of the past, so it's not such a stretch to make the connection. Oh, the flag is also a symbol of the South? Too fucking bad, it's tainted with racism. People can pick on the South because the South is genuinely fucked up.
Dear Dag,
Fuck you, you motherfucking fuck stick. It is you who are prejudice in buying into the ignorance and preconceived notions. You are too stupid and detestable to even debate.
And by the way, Fuck you, you ignorant fuck.

[Coffee Manic]

Don't hold back, Nicodemus2004, say what you really mean.

As for Dag's comment:
Oh, the flag is also a symbol of the South? Too fucking bad, it's tainted with racism. People can pick on the South because the South is genuinely fucked up.

Slavery was allowed in the US. Is the US flag likewise tainted with racism?

[Zoe]

Askia! That is bizarre! I grew up north of Trenton. Knew some folks from Milan. Ha! There are 95 counties in Tennessee and someone knows about mine! We are probably kin, you know.

[Askia]

MaaAAaaaan, I gots all kindsa family and nuttin but cousins down there, so that wouldn't surprise me.

Good to know ya! Made my night!

[Nic2004]

Don't hold back, Nicodemus2004, say what you really mean.

As for Dag's comment:


Slavery was allowed in the US. Is the US flag likewise tainted with racism?
The KKK marches everywhere in the US carrying a Cross and an American Flag. They too are suspect and due to be hated as well.

Coffee Manic- Sorry if I tend to sugar-coat it. I'm not always in touch with my feelings. :p

[monstro]

Don't hold back, Nicodemus2004, say what you really mean.

As for Dag's comment:


Slavery was allowed in the US. Is the US flag likewise tainted with racism?


Actually, it is, for some people. My mother wouldn't let us hang both the Confederate flag and the US flag in her house for exactly those reasons, when I was growing up.

One can make the argument that the Confederate flag, being the symbol of contemporary racist groups like the KKK, is much more tainted than the US flag.

[longhair75]

i have family in memphis, and visit there often. (we will be going there next week) my memphis relatives certainly have a decidedly differing view of race than i do. it was pretty difficult to explain to the kids: "yes, uncle billy uses that word to describe black people, but you must not."

[Dag Otto]

Dear Dag,
Fuck you, you motherfucking fuck stick. It is you who are prejudice in buying into the ignorance and preconceived notions. You are too stupid and detestable to even debate.
And by the way, Fuck you, you ignorant fuck.

What the hell did I ever say to you, apart from apparently calling you a fucktard?

I'm not calling everyone in the south a racist. That would be absurd, considering that a couple of southern states voted to remove the battle flag references from their state flags a couple of years ago, demonstrating that a majority of the people there understand it's racist meaning. It's the folks who continue to fly the ugly thing who I'm damning. They know goddamned good and well what that flag means, but hide behind the bullshit "It's part of southern history" excuse. Fuck them.

[dropzone]

Slavery was allowed in the US. Is the US flag likewise tainted with racism?The difference here (some of the people in this thread don't seem too good with differences, even if they are not particularly subtle) is that the United States was not created specifically to retain slavery. The US flag may be tainted with racism but the various Confederate flags drip with it.

[Dag Otto]

People can pick on the South because the South is genuinely fucked up.



Ok, I admit, that last part was uncalled for.

[Zoe]

For as long as I can remember, the Confederate battle flag has not been part of the Tennessee state flag. Please correct me if I am mistaken. I know that it has been part of many Southern state flags.

I know that for some it represents Southern traditions. For others it represents a bigoted way of thinking. I don't want the thing anywhere near me. It hurts too many people. For me it has become a symbol of tackiness.

[Quartz]

Of course, there was never any concern about black kids being adopted by white families
Yes, it's near impossible here in the U.K.

[boofuu]

A few thoughts. Do with them as you will.

I do not think racism is more prevelant in the South than the North. Really. I think we look for racism there and it gets more attention when found.

But, having moved from NYC to Wilmington (and Chapel Hill) NC, two relatively liberal cities, both with large universities, I will say that I have had more blatant racist/bigoted words thrown my way in the South. It is just that racists tend to be a little more discrete in the North. Probably because of saturation. Still, nasty looks can sometimes be as powerful as nasty words.

And as to the case describe in the OP, I think these guys targeted a retarded kid who happened to be black. I could verily see them doing the same to a retarded white kid. Just looking at the merits of this case as whole, regardless of perceived (likely real) trends in this town, it was a case of drunk kids playing pin-the-tale on the 'tard. I think they were stupid, possibly bigoted and plain mean. But I doubt it was a racial hate crime, per se.

I also think it was quite possible that the black jurors may have just believed that is was not a punishable crime. Do not think that every black person is a card carrying member of the NAACP. Old ideas die hard for everyone

Regardless, I am apalled that the defendants were handed a "get out of jail free" card. They could have gotten more time killing a dog. The teens may be racists or bigots, but they are most certainly jackasses.

[Liberal]

It is just that racists tend to be a little more discrete in the North.Exactly. The famous Eddie Murphy SNL While Like Me skit no doubt drew its inspiration from Yankee bigotry.

[John Carter of Mars]

I see that once again the usual suspects have weighed in with their self-congratulatory and ignorant rhetoric about how superior race relations are in the more northern climes. They seem to enjoy a SDMB civil war ever and anon.

I have a suggestion: Let's have a dopefest and we can do one of those battle recreations or whatever they are called.

I'd prefer live ammo to the phony stuff. How about we re-enact Grant's assult at Cold Harbor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cold_Harbor) on June 3rd, 1864?

[John Carter of Mars]

Or assault, even.

[LouisB]

Trying to get an otherwise reasonable, and personally non-racist, southerner to admit that there's more racism in the south than in other parts of the country is like pulling Superman's teeth.As a non-racist person who has lived in eight of the lower forty-eight states, I will NOT concede there is more racism in the south than anywhere else.

[you with the face]

This thread is turning out to be one stupid pissing match.

That is all.

[Odesio]

Just a guess, but might it have something to do with the fucktards who insist on flying the Confederate battle flag? For the most part, you find them in the South.

I"m not so sure about that. When Jonesboro, Arkansas had that school shooting I remember many media pundits placing some of the blame on the southern gun culture. I don't remember any type of gun culture being mentioned when school shootings occured in the Colorado or other places outside the south.

Marc

[Frostillicus]

"The black boy was somewhere he shouldn't have been, although they brought him out there."

Does anyone else have a problem with the sherriff referring to a 42 year old black man as "boy"? This is right out of In the Heat of the Night, which showed racist southern life in the 1960s.

[Askia]

boofuu called him a "kid" -- but I'm inclined to believe it was because he didn't read the link.

[andros]

For me it has become a symbol of tackiness.

Yup. You're a southerner. "Tacky" is about the worst insult I know. :D

[boofuu]

boofuu called him a "kid" -- but I'm inclined to believe it was because he didn't read the link.

boofuu = she, although most of friends say I act like a man. :)

I did read the link, but funny enough, I come into contact with mentally disabled children and adults, and honestly often think of them as "kids." Even though I do believe in that the mentally disabled should have input on how they live, I still tend to equate a person with their "mental" age. So, mostly poor choice of words. And partially why I think it was a hate crime motivated at a disabled person and not "a person of color."

And yes, I also think this is mostly a pissing contest of who is more racist. I think Northerners are too quick to blame the South for any and every act of racial violence. Hell, if the racist is in the North, someone will find a way to prove that person was a direct kin of Jefferson Davis or Colonel Sanders or someone.

I also think Southerners are automatically defensive when it comes to the subject (and this is borne from constant accusation of racism). But damn, they need to find a way to stay out of the papers for things like this. Very very bad PR.

Fact is, racism is bad, most, I hope would agree. Racism ANYWHERE is bad. South, North, China. Blaming the "Old South" or "good ole boys" does nothing to end the problem and only creates division. Really, the war ended long time ago. Does it matter that this crime happened in Texas?

(I will admit to getting a funny feeling in my stomach when I driving next to a 4x4 with a confederate flag sticker and a guy with a mullet. Sorry. I am sure he is a great guy, but it just puts me on edge. II should clarify, it's not the mullet I think those are cool.)

[robotic_panda]

Exactly. The famous Eddie Murphy SNL While Like Me skit no doubt drew its inspiration from Yankee bigotry.

Really? I thought that was a parody of Black Like Me, one of the most famous literary accounts of southern American bigotry.

The Eddie Murphy skit was so ludicrous, I don't see how it can be inspired by "Yankee bigotry". It was just reversing the plot of Black Like Me, turning a black man into a white man to see "how they lived, without us around." In a ridiculous, humorous way.

I'm not sure it was ever meant to be a commentary on black/white relations in the north; if anything its taking the conclusions of the original inspiration (Black Like Me) and putting it into a context familiar for northerners. It is so outrageous, it makes it funny.

Well, I found it funny.

[Askia]

A few thoughts. Do with them as you will.

I do not think racism is more prevelant in the South than the North. Really. I think we look for racism there and it gets more attention when found.
I don't look for racism. Honest to God, bigotry and discrimination finds me when I'm minding my own business trying to live my life and do my thing. I've lived in South Carolina and Georgia and spent summers in Tennessee and Kentucky; as well as years in Ohio and Michigan. I've been targeted by white boys in Flint, Michigan streets for being in the "wrong" neighborhood and been assaulted by white boys in cars while riding my bike in South Carolina and Atlanta. Assholes and racists are everywhere but the fact remains I've experienced MOST of my most overt, blatant incidents of racism, prejudices and discrimination in the south: everything from housing to jobs to personal interactions to cops hassling me for no damn good reason.

[Liberal]

Really? I thought that was a parody of Black Like Me, one of the most famous literary accounts of southern American bigotry.

The Eddie Murphy skit was so ludicrous, I don't see how it can be inspired by "Yankee bigotry". It was just reversing the plot of Black Like Me, turning a black man into a white man to see "how they lived, without us around." In a ridiculous, humorous way.

I'm not sure it was ever meant to be a commentary on black/white relations in the north; if anything its taking the conclusions of the original inspiration (Black Like Me) and putting it into a context familiar for northerners. It is so outrageous, it makes it funny.

Well, I found it funny.What I find funny is that Northerners pretend racism is not a familiar context, when it has been around in Yankeedom for a long long time. As one professor at Loyola College puts it:

The Revised Code of Indiana stated in 1862 that "Negroes and mulattos are not allowed to come into the state"; forbade the consummation of legal contracts with "Negroes and mulattos"; imposed a $500 fine on anyone who employed a black person; forbade interracial marriage; and forbade blacks from testifying in court against white persons.

Illinois-the "land of Lincoln"-added almost identical restrictions in 1848, as did Oregon in 1857. Most Northern states in the 1860s did not permit immigration by blacks or, if they did, required them to post a $1,000 bond that would be confiscated if they behaved "improperly."

Senator Lyman Trimball of Illinois, a close confidant of Lincoln's, stated that "our people want nothing to do with the Negro" and was a strong supporter of Illinois' "black codes." Northern newspapers were often just as racist as the Northern black codes were. The Philadelphia Daily News editorialized on November 22, 1860, that "the African is naturally the inferior race." The Daily Chicago Times wrote on December 7, 1860, that "nothing but evil" has come from the idea of Abolition and urged everyone to return any escaped slave "to his master where he belongs."

On January 22, 1861, the New York Times announced that slavery would indeed be a "very tolerable system" if only slaves were allowed to legally marry, be taught to read, and to invest their savings. In short, the cartoonish notion that the Republican party was so incensed over racial discrimination in the South after the war that, in a fit of moral outrage, it trashed all constitutional precepts to dictatorially adopt the Fourteenth Amendment, should not be taken seriously. As Alexis de Tocqueville wrote in Democracy in America, it was obvious to all that racial prejudice was stronger in the North than it was in the South. "The prejudice of race," wrote Tocqueville, "appears to be stronger in the states that have abolished slavery than in those where it still exists."

If the Republican party was so sensitive about racial discrimination in the post-war era it would not have sent General Sherman out west just three months after the war ended to commence a campaign of genocide against the Plains Indians. The very same army that had recently conquered and occupied the Southern states-led by Generals Grant, Sherman, and Sheridan-mass murdered Indian men, women, and children during the winters, when families would be together, with massive Gatling gun and artillery fire. In a letter to his son a year before he died (1889), Sherman expressed his regret that his armies did not murder every last Indian in North America."Truth About the 14th Amendment" — Thomas J. DiLorenzo

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Great cite, Lib. I'd advise northerners also to read up on the Black Irish riots of the nineteenth century in New York, in which Irish immigrants, infuriated at a white culture that equated them with being black, when on murderous rampages through black neighborhoods, slaughtering innocents, in what many believe was an effort to prove that the Irish were not themselves black.

We all got something in our history to be ashamed of; and if we identify with our society, we all got plenty of racism in our current society to be ashamed of as well.

Daniel

[Lamar Mundane]

Great cite, Lib. I'd advise northerners also to read up on the Black Irish riots of the nineteenth century in New York, in which Irish immigrants, infuriated at a white culture that equated them with being black, when on murderous rampages through black neighborhoods, slaughtering innocents, in what many believe was an effort to prove that the Irish were not themselves black.

We all got something in our history to be ashamed of; and if we identify with our society, we all got plenty of racism in our current society to be ashamed of as well.

Daniel
What relevance do laws and incidents from 150 years ago have on this discussion? Nobody has claimed that there are no racists or bigots in the northern states, just that there is a more pervasive bigotry in the south. Sure, there are plces like northern Idaho and south Boston that are islands of racism, but in those places the word "nigger" is used as a racial slur, while in many parts of the south it is used in casual conversation.

Try this thought experiment - imagine a week in Denver and count how many times you hear the word "nigger". My guess is you won't hear it at all. Imagine a week in Memphis or Shreveport or Birmingham. You'll hear it at the 7-11, in a cab, at the hotel, etc.

I don't know why people have such a hard time accepting this.

[jsgoddess]

Try this thought experiment - imagine a week in Denver and count how many times you hear the word "nigger". My guess is you won't hear it at all. Imagine a week in Memphis or Shreveport or Birmingham. You'll hear it at the 7-11, in a cab, at the hotel, etc.

I heard it for the first time in a loooong time yesterday. While I was in my backyard. One of my neighbors was screaming at one of his kids.

Isn't it a little odd for some moronic white guy to call his kid by a racial epithet? On the other hand, these people are so stupid I'm sure they can't figure out the implications.

[Mockingbird]

Dear Dag,
Fuck you, you motherfucking fuck stick. It is you who are prejudice in buying into the ignorance and preconceived notions. You are too stupid and detestable to even debate.
And by the way, Fuck you, you ignorant fuck.

Now, now. You just go back to disenfranchising black voters and keeping a man in office who was using dishonest means to try and keep a woman alive so he could remain in the good graces of his masters.

See... those are preconcieved notions based on your geographic location.

As I was told by many Floridians that Florida isn't part of the South, I figured I should give you something authentic to get incoherently outraged over.

:D

[EddyTeddyFreddy]

Try this thought experiment - imagine a week in Denver and count how many times you hear the word "nigger". My guess is you won't hear it at all. Imagine a week in Memphis or Shreveport or Birmingham. You'll hear it at the 7-11, in a cab, at the hotel, etc. I hear it a lot in Boston, but that's because I'm often taking the subway when school's let out and the kids are going home. The black kids use it to each other constantly. Used as an insult? Not very often.

[mhendo]

I often read this blog (http://standingonthebox.blogspot.com/) by a guy who's a bouncer in a Manhattan nightclub. His club is frequented by a type of clientele that he refers to as "Guidos," which seems to mean a largely Italian culture exemplified in its fashions and attitudes by the kids on the "Growing Up Gotti" TV show.*

Anyway, apparently the term "nigger" is a frequntly used epithet among this crowd. They use it to refer to one another in a sort of brotherly way, the way some African Americans do. E.g. "Yo, what's up nigga!"

But they also apparently use it in its more traditional, disparaging sense to refer to African Americans.


*It's not really clear to me how offensive the term "guido" is generally thought to be, or whether these people use it among themselves. I'm sure someone more familiar with New York lingo can help me out here.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Try this thought experiment - imagine a week in Denver and count how many times you hear the word "nigger". My guess is you won't hear it at all. Imagine a week in Memphis or Shreveport or Birmingham. You'll hear it at the 7-11, in a cab, at the hotel, etc.
I'll try this experiment instead: in my last six years in the South (in Chapel Hill, Durham, Asheville, and travels around the region), I've heard the word zero times. Not once. Not on my travels in Georgia and Tennessee, not in the majority-black town of Durham, not from the low-income rural folks I deal with through my job.

None of these places are Shreveport, but I don't put much trust at all in this experiment of yours; instead, I think it reflects a prejudice, in the strictest sense of the word, on your part.

Daniel

[Lamar Mundane]

I'll try this experiment instead: in my last six years in the South (in Chapel Hill, Durham, Asheville, and travels around the region), I've heard the word zero times. Not once. Not on my travels in Georgia and Tennessee, not in the majority-black town of Durham, not from the low-income rural folks I deal with through my job.

None of these places are Shreveport, but I don't put much trust at all in this experiment of yours; instead, I think it reflects a prejudice, in the strictest sense of the word, on your part.

Daniel
No prejudice. I am relying entirely on first hand experiences. It seems odd that the experiences (not perceptions) of people vary so significantly.

P.S. I don't consider North Carolina part of the deep south.

[Nic2004]

Now, now. You just go back to disenfranchising black voters and keeping a man in office who was using dishonest means to try and keep a woman alive so he could remain in the good graces of his masters.

See... those are preconcieved notions based on your geographic location.

As I was told by many Floridians that Florida isn't part of the South, I figured I should give you something authentic to get incoherently outraged over.

:D
Now, now Mockingbird, try to focus. The big people are trying to talk about prejudice. Say it with me pre-ju-dice. Not the Bush politics or the Terri Shivo debacle. I don't believe I have ever disenfranchised black voters. Seems like I would remember something like that.
You are, however, in keeping with the discussion in your statement:
See... those are preconcieved notions based on your geographic location.
That is an excellent example of the prejudice we are discussing. See, "preconcieved notions" is just a more palatable way of saying you are prejudice.
Have you not read, or understood, the postings above talking about the extent of the problem in both the North and the South? Do you not comprehend the ignorance shown by the posting I railed against? This kind of back-of-a-cerealbox understanding of history and myopic buying into simplistic explanations of the events leading up to the Civil War only severs to show the causes of the problem at hand.
The worst racists I have ever met were from one Northern state or another. And before you believe what "Floridians" think about their State, try to understand that having a Florida condo, drivers license or tag on your car doesn't make you a Floridian.

[Zoe]

I just don't hear it often either. Not at the grocery store or at the mall or around my friends here in Nashville.

I have one friend who used the derogatory word for African-Americans up until about fifteen years ago and we "had words" about it and didn't speak for three years. She doesn't use it anymore and has apparently adjusted some of her opinions too -- not just her language.

I have a family member who lives in Florida who uses it, but I think that is because he is full of contempt for everyone, including me. He knows that it is offensive to me and he uses it to play Alpha wolf. I see him every three or four years.

I have another friend who lives a rough life. She is illiterate and poor. We talk on the phone and she comes to visit every couple of years for a day. She doesn't talk about African-Americans very often, but when she does, she sometimes uses the derogatory word. She doesn't seem to hold particular malice or hatred.

That's it! You can imagine all you want to, but this is the reality of my life in Nashville, Lamar.

I live in a multi-cultural neighborhood. Do you?

[Zoe]

Memphis is not considered "Deep South" either. It's "Mid-South." I thought we were talking about the South in general.

[Lamar Mundane]

Zoe, I think you have illustrated exactly what I am talking about. You know personally several people who use the "n" word regularly. You probably encounter it occasionally in random encounters, but I won't assume that. No one that I know uses that word in my presense, ever. (I'm talking about whites referring to blacks, blacks using the word among themselves is a different story.)

Do you consider your experience typical? Where I live, it is not.

I live in a very multicultural neighborhood, but not many black people. They're aren't a lot of black people in Colorado.

[goBigRick]

I live in Nashville now, but I'm originally from a small town in Gibson County -- about a hundred miles north of Memphis. I wonder what makes the difference. I was also in education, but on a high school level.

Hey, I am from Trenton. Which town in Gibson County (if you don't mind me asking).

[goBigRick]

Oh, shoot. I read further down and see you have already answered that question.

[goBigRick]

To actually add something to the topic, in west TN and middle/east TN where I go to school the only place I ever hear people using derogatory names towards blacks is the old men at the barber shop. It's not prevavlent in my day to day life.

[eleanorigby]

That has been my experience, for the most part--the older people(senior citizens, at least 65+) use the "N" word.

I have heard a few people younger than that use it to refer to blacks in general--but never out in public. <sigh>

Then again, while I do feel that it is more prevalent in the South, there are plenty of folks up here in Chicago who may not say nigger, but say "black" in such an inflection that they might as well say nigger.

[monstro]

It's so comforting to know that so many people hate black people. Northerners and Southerners.

Makes me treasure the nice people that much more.

[EddyTeddyFreddy]

I heard it for the first time in a loooong time yesterday. While I was in my backyard. One of my neighbors was screaming at one of his kids.

Isn't it a little odd for some moronic white guy to call his kid by a racial epithet? On the other hand, these people are so stupid I'm sure they can't figure out the implications. Perhaps he's just passing down some of that good old traditional family lore.

As that song from South Pacific helpfully points out:

You've got to be taught to hate and fear,
You've got to be taught from year to year,
It's got to be drummed in your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught!

[Zoe]

Lamar: Zoe, I think you have illustrated exactly what I am talking about. You know personally several people who use the "n" word regularly.

[/b]Lamar[/b], If at the age of 61, I know of one person in Florida that I see every three or four years that uses a derogatory term to aggravate me and one person that I see every two years that was probably never taught better, I would say that:

1. You don't know what "several" means.

2. You don't know what "regular" means.

3. You aren't interested in the truth.

Neither of these people even live in Nashville. I listed every person and incident that I could think of because I wanted to be completely honest and look at what you have done to try to twist what I said. Next time try imagining integrity.

Again, I live in a multi-cultural neighborhood. Do you?

[Lamar Mundane]

Again, I live in a multi-cultural neighborhood. Do you?
I already answered that - yes I do.
I don't know what the relevance of that is, though.

When you travel outside of the south, do you get strangers making comments about racial minorities to you? That happens to me often when I travel in the south, and virtually nowhere else.

[John Carter of Mars]

When you travel outside of the south, do you get strangers making comments about racial minorities to you? That happens to me often when I travel in the south, and virtually nowhere else.

What do you mean by often? And what? You've got a swastika tattoo on your forehead that attracts a certain type of person?

I travel a lot around the south. In the past three years, I've been to every southern state from Arkansas through Virginia, most of them several times, for extended periods. I can't remember how many years it's been since some stranger that I met in my travels made a comment about minorities.
When on the road, it is my inclination to seek out bars and clubs to while away the evening hours. Even in those places, the subject simply doesn't come up. Is there something you are doing or saying to incite controversy?

Unless you are bringing racial matters up yourself, I simply can't see how you are encountering these comments to the degree that you claim. It's not consistant with what I've experienced.

[MaxTheVool]

First of all, sorry for contributing to the stirring up a bit of a tempest and then not responding for a while. I was in Wisconsin. (Where, I might point out, I spent a lot of time at a meeting of an organization with an all-white membeship.*)

Anyhow, a few comments:
(1) This is becoming very much he-said she-said. I googled around some, but could not find any state-by-state studies concerning level of racism. Does anyone know of one?

(2) Even if it does come down to he-said she-said, there's a really weird divide (and I've noticed this before in these threads) in which some number of basically reasonable-sounding people say they can be in the south for years on end without ever hearing racial epithets, and other basically reasonable-sounding people who say they basically hear the n-word every time they go to a convenience store. I can't explain this divide. I note, however, that no one claims that they hear the n-word every time they go to the convenience store in the North. So, just by taking the easy way out of crudely averaging all of these reports, there still appears to be at least more frequent, accepted and visible racism in the South.

(3) I also note that, as always happens in threads of this sort, many Southerners are popping up and saying "But I'm not racist! How can you say I'm racist? And look at all the problems you guys have! And we're getting better! And see, by grouping us all together like this, you're just as bigoted as you're accusing us of being." I leave as an exercise to the reader the logical problems with each of those responses.



Oh, and:

Slavery was allowed in the US. Is the US flag likewise tainted with racism?

Well, we should note that at the point in time when there was a war fought to end slavery (well, we could argue about precisely to what extent that was what it was about), one of those flags was on one side of the issue and one was on the other. That seems like a pretty big difference to me. Feel free to ignore the many rebuttals of your snide driveby, however.




My family. We do have some Jews and some gays.

[Coffee Manic]

Max, I know that you're not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but even you can read. There have been no rebuttals whatsoever to my "snide driveby". It's very difficult to rebut a rhetorical question.

What position, exactly, do you think I take on the issue?

[Nic2004]

First of all, sorry for contributing to the stirring up a bit of a tempest and then not responding for a while. I was in Wisconsin. (Where, I might point out, I spent a lot of time at a meeting of an organization with an all-white membeship.*)

Anyhow, a few comments:
(1) This is becoming very much he-said she-said. I googled around some, but could not find any state-by-state studies concerning level of racism. Does anyone know of one?

(2) Even if it does come down to he-said she-said, there's a really weird divide (and I've noticed this before in these threads) in which some number of basically reasonable-sounding people say they can be in the south for years on end without ever hearing racial epithets, and other basically reasonable-sounding people who say they basically hear the n-word every time they go to a convenience store. I can't explain this divide. I note, however, that no one claims that they hear the n-word every time they go to the convenience store in the North. So, just by taking the easy way out of crudely averaging all of these reports, there still appears to be at least more frequent, accepted and visible racism in the South.

(3) I also note that, as always happens in threads of this sort, many Southerners are popping up and saying "But I'm not racist! How can you say I'm racist? And look at all the problems you guys have! And we're getting better! And see, by grouping us all together like this, you're just as bigoted as you're accusing us of being." I leave as an exercise to the reader the logical problems with each of those responses.



Oh, and:

Well, we should note that at the point in time when there was a war fought to end slavery (well, we could argue about precisely to what extent that was what it was about), one of those flags was on one side of the issue and one was on the other. That seems like a pretty big difference to me. Feel free to ignore the many rebuttals of your snide driveby, however.




My family. We do have some Jews and some gays.

Mmmm. Were to begin?
I note, however, that no one claims that they hear the n-word every time they go to the convenience store in the North.
Just because the one side doesn't make unsubstansiated accusations like the other side, this tends to support the claim? Stupid reasoning.
I leave as an exercise to the reader the logical problems with each of those responses.
I think all the people of California are jew-hating-Nazis and the Palo Alto bunch is the worst of all. Say it often enough and mental-midgets will believe it to be FACT. If the Californians say "Hey, we're not like that. I don't know anyone like that, there are those type anywhere you go" they respond with "See! Their protests prove my point!". If you have studied the replys as you said surely you noticed that those who live there say "I don't hear it all the time, practically never." Those who don't live there and seek to support their position say "Oh yeah, I can't leave the house without hearing the N word when in the South"

To the War being about Slavery, I get the impression you knew the stupidity behind this statement before you made it. It was a complex and involved process that let up to war and the issue of slavery was raised in responce to the threat of England and France preparing to recognize the CSA as a sovern nation, establishing trade (cannons, guns, powder, etc.) and off-setting the Northern advantage of an industial powerhouse vs. an agricultural one. By making it appear a moral issue they were discouraged from lending support on the world stage. Can you see the British warships challenging the Northern naval blockades to deliver war materials to the Southern ports?

Sorry if I get going. It is a subject I take and interest in. This discussion is not a debate about the Civil War. I only ask that people don't accept the sound-bite version of the causes of the war and the division between the States and the effects it still has on perceptions to this day.
Prejudice is to Pre-Judge without first hand knowledge. Sometimes those who are the loudest accusers have the greatest guilt.

[eleanorigby]

[QUOTE]
Prejudice is to Pre-Judge without first hand knowledge. Sometimes those who are the loudest accusers have the greatest guilt.

You have mis-characterized both sides. I have read the thread and see that some Southerners have come in and said, to effect, that they don't hear racial slurs around town etc. And some non-Southerners have come in to say that while they never hear "nigger" at home, whilst in the South, they have.

Noone said that they couldn't leave the house w/o hearing "nigger". Why obfuscate things? I would think that most reasonable people would take the tack that outright, in public racism has lost it's "charm" and is not widely practiced anywhere, anymore. Incidents like the one in this post belie that conventional comfort. Certainly, the sentencing would have been much harsher elsewhere, IMO.

As to the "prejudice"--I DO have first hand knowledge--I have visited Memphis several times, my parents LIVE there, my grandparents lived in central Florida (where I also lived for a short time as a kid) and yes, the Word was used there, too. There's no guilt here-just an observation. Jeesh.

How can people have such different experiences? I dunno-maybe that's life? Or MAYBE, just maybe, it isn't noticed as much where it occurs more frequently? Just a thought.

That is not to say that we up here don't have problems with race and prejudice or that there aren't many many people in the South that find it as abhorrent as many Northerners do. But that wasn't what the thread was about.

[MaxTheVool]

Max, I know that you're not the sharpest knife in the drawer,

Thank you so much for attempting to draw the conversation down into personal invective.


but even you can read. There have been no rebuttals whatsoever to my "snide driveby". It's very difficult to rebut a rhetorical question.

What position, exactly, do you think I take on the issue?

From the tone and location of your post, I definitely got the impression that your post was a knee-jerk defense of the confederate flag via attempting to draw false equivalencies. If it was in fact just a purely innocent question with no pre-judging, then I apologize for misreading, although it's sure as hell unusual to find purely innocent questions in threads about this topic.

So, you tell me: what position DO you take on the issue?

[Coffee Manic]

I rarely knee-jerk, and I try not to be snide. I do not post drivebys, neither do I ignore rebuttals. Now what were you saying about personal invectives?

Anyway, my thoughts on the display of the Confederate flag are complex. The various state and local governments should not display it because it is a symbol of an attempt to dissolve the Union, because it is a symbol of slavery, and because whatever way of life it represents is long gone (and is largely a romantic dream that never actually existed.) There are exceptions to that, of course. Teachers should be able to display the Stars and Bars during lessons on the Civil War, just as they might display a Union Jack during a lesson on the American Revolution. A teacher should not be able to display one during a lesson on economics or in Health class without a darn good reason. I can see no reason for having one fly over a state capitol, and the only reason for flying one over a county courthouse is if it's part of some tourist or historical setting.

Individuals, however, who wish to display it should be allowed to. Everyone who displays it probably has their own reasons for doing so -- many use it as a racist symbol, yes, but others use it as a reminder of their heritage from a time of Southern Belles and Gentlemen Scholars, good manners, and personal honor. Some use it as a sign of their own rebellion, and others just think it looks cool. Some display it for purely historical reasons -- eleven states did indeed fly the flags of the Confederacy in the 1860s -- while others might display it because they desire another civil war. Some theme restaurants display it because, well, y'all Yankees can't cook for shit ;) .

It's easy to see that when the KKK flies one during their activities, they are sending a clear message: Blacks are inferior to Whites. But there's no way that a reasonable person could view the roof of Bo and Luke's General Lee as being the network's opinion that Blacks are inferior to Whites.

Those are my thoughts, anyway.

[Liberal]

Some theme restaurants display it because, well, y'all Yankees can't cook for shitOh, lordy, ain't that the truth. Their green beans are ... [shudder] ... crunchy.

[Dob]

Sidetrack here:

A woman at work brought in a graduation notice from her cousin. In the notice was the graduates senior picture. It was him standing in front of a confederate flag, wearing a baseball cap with "Got Beer?" on the front. He was in jeans, wearing a nice blue flannel shirt.

Now, I dont think this makes him a racist by any stretch but it amazed me that a public school actually used a confederate flag as a backdrop for school pictures. This was in W.VA.

[Zoe]

Lamar: When you travel outside of the south, do you get strangers making comments about racial minorities to you? That happens to me often when I travel in the south, and virtually nowhere else.

No, I don't hear racial slurs outside the South either. Can you explain to me why Southerners who travel outside the South change their language styles around you?

The only time I do hear any kind of regular put down of minorities is by innuendo -- twice a year from two certain semi-family visitors. The derogatory term is not used, but inferiority is implied. Anyone who is not white is automatically inferior. Also, anyone with a Southern drawl is also inferior. Both are well-educated and from New England. They are the most openly bigotted people that I know.

I do not think they are typical of Northerners.

eleanorigby, I take you at your word when you say that the situation is different in Memphis and I ask you to do the same for me in Nashville.

I am very sensitized to language and its derogatory uses. I began teaching English in 1969 and asked to be placed in an integrated high school. I taught in inner city schools until I retired 20 years later. That was by choice.

[Zoe]

Max: I also note that, as always happens in threads of this sort, many Southerners are popping up and saying "But I'm not racist! How can you say I'm racist?

Cite? I don't think anyone here has been attacked as being racist or felt the need to defend themselves as not being racist. If I am mistaken, a cite will be appreciated.

And look at all the problems you guys have! And we're getting better! And see, by grouping us all together like this, you're just as bigoted as you're accusing us of being." I leave as an exercise to the reader the logical problems with each of those responses.

The South continues to have racial problems. When a Northerner points at a racial incident in the South and invokes the "Old South" label, he is invoking a stereotype of the bigoted Southerner which relies largely on the South's ties to slavery which ended 140 years ago.

The irony is that the North's ties to slavery ended 140-210 years ago (approximately). The North continues to have racial problems. The South has admitted to its problems all along. No one here has said there are no problems. But there is no crime in acknowledging that we've made progress. What is illogical about that? Are you that short-sighted?

Why isn't it bigotry to promote the idea that Southerners are racially prejudiced? I don't think you realize how often stereotypes against Southerners are brought up -- even here at SDMB where we are supposed to be fighting ignorance, not promoting it. You wouldn't believe have saturated the media is with stupid Southerner stereotypes. Of course, you may think that it is normal to promote the idea that a group of people are stupid in comparison to another group.

I see not reason for prejudice or bigotry wherever it is found. If that is illogical to you, maybe you can explain why.

Personally, I would like to hear still more from African-Americans who have travelled around the country.

Dob, how do you know that was the official senior picture? That sounds really bizarre!

[eleanorigby]

Zoe --no problem. I feel I must clarify something. My father works at UT--where he hears this shit is in his (all)white suburban neighborhood. I have not been down in a few years and dont' know if the neighborhood is more integrated or not. I DO know that my parents would welcome some diversity with open arms.

No, I don't know why they bought in the neighborhood that they did--it certainly wasn't racially motivated, one way or another. Frankly, I think that alot of upper middle class white folk live in a bubble that time forgot-no matter the region of country.

But, to chime in here with some good ole Northern bigotry--I have heard the same shit(more rarely) from folks in my neighborhood (about 60% white, 25% AA and 5% other).

By no means do I claim that the South is the only racist area of the country. But the thread is specifically about Southern racism and the story involved here would have had a much different outcome for those"good ole boys" (excuse me while I puke) than it did, if it had been tried elsewhere. I would like to think that the verdict would have been different outside of Texas, but don't claim to know enough about the Deep South to be able to say that with any degree of certainty.

[Maeglin]

Oh, lordy, ain't that the truth. Their green beans are ... [shudder] ... crunchy.

This New York yankee thinks that green beans can be enjoyed in no other way. I suppose there must be deeper divides between north and south than racial politics.

[holmes]

Zoe The South's ties to slavery didn't end 140 years ago, it ended 40 years ago with the Voting Rights Act. That's a big deal. I am by no means saying that the North is pure here, but a lot of the stauts quo in the South, simply wasn't allowed here.

Did it happen, yes...but it wasn't expected or accepted as it was in the South...and of course there's a difference between the cities, country and burbs....in Upstate NY Confederate flags are not out of place....so I guess it depends on where and when you are.

[MaxTheVool]

Just because the one side doesn't make unsubstansiated accusations like the other side, this tends to support the claim? Stupid reasoning.

Perhaps, but not necessarily unsound. Look, I've never spent meaningful time in the deep South (the closest I've come is spring break in South Carolina during college, and a few days visiting friends and relatives in Virginia). I've also never seen studies convincingly demonstrating comparative levels of racism between states, although (as requested earlier) if anyone can point me towards some, I'm eager to learn. Thus, all I have to go on is anecdotal evidence, which is pretty much guaranteed to be unsubstantiated, unless someone says "I've spent 3 years in the south without hearing the N-word, and here's a complete video recording of those 26,280 consecutive days which you can examine for yourself" or "well, I heard the N-word three times in the airport alone, and here are notarized audio tapes of those incidents". And I've read many posts from dopers claiming that, based on their personal experience of living in and travelling to the South, there is more blatant and quasi-accepted racism there than elsewhere. What should I do, just ignore all of those posts until I get Proof-with-a-capital-P?

So, while this does seem silly, I've read enough of those posts to believe that there's a reasonable level of such racism in the South. On the other hand, I've never read anything to give me that same belief about other parts of the country, and I've lived in at least three of them (noCal, soCal and suburban Philly) without seeing that level of racism myself.

Thus, I've drawn the conclusion that I've drawn. If anyone wants to present some actual evidence to the contrary (and Lib's hate crime link is a step in the right direction), or present me with a convincing argument why so many dopers would be making shit up, perhaps my mind will be changed.



I think all the people of California are jew-hating-Nazis and the Palo Alto bunch is the worst of all. Say it often enough and mental-midgets will believe it to be FACT. If the Californians say "Hey, we're not like that. I don't know anyone like that, there are those type anywhere you go" they respond with "See! Their protests prove my point!". If you have studied the replys as you said surely you noticed that those who live there say "I don't hear it all the time, practically never." Those who don't live there and seek to support their position say "Oh yeah, I can't leave the house without hearing the N word when in the South"

I'm not sure what your point is. I have seen many posts from dopers, in this thread and others, who have lived or travelled extensively in the South, who see more racism on display there than in other parts of the country. If a grand conspiracy formed in which dozens of otherwise honest dopers attempted to convince someone that Palo Alto was full of nazis, well, they might well succeed, at least for a while. Like I said, what's your point?


To the War being about Slavery, I get the impression you knew the stupidity behind this statement before you made it.

Yes and no.
I don't think "the civil war was fought about slavery" is a 100% correct statement. But it's WAY closer to true than "the civil war was NOT fought about slavery". Slavery was both the single biggest dividing issue between North and South, and the catalyst that set off the conflict. It's somewhat arguable to what extent the North was fighting to end slavery, although it's certainly not a slam dunk that that was NOT the case. But it's much less arguable that the South was fighting to maintain slavery.


It was a complex and involved process that let up to war and the issue of slavery was raised in responce to the threat of England and France preparing to recognize the CSA as a sovern nation,

You're referring to the timing of the emancipation proclamation? So you're saying that before that, if you'd asked people "is slavery a primary cause of this war" they would have denied it? Or are you saying something else?



I only ask that people don't accept the sound-bite version of the causes of the war and the division between the States and the effects it still has on perceptions to this day.

Nor should people dismiss the sound bite, either for political reasons, or in order to sound learned. The truth is more complicated than a sound bite, but that doesn't mean that the sound bite is wrong.


Prejudice is to Pre-Judge without first hand knowledge. Sometimes those who are the loudest accusers have the greatest guilt.
And I hope you'll note that I have not accused anyone of anything. I think the South, as a region, has a racism problem. California has its own problems, but that doesn't mean that they apply to me, specifically.

[MaxTheVool]

I rarely knee-jerk, and I try not to be snide. I do not post drivebys, neither do I ignore rebuttals. Now what were you saying about personal invectives?

Well, if I misinterpreted your post, which is certainly possible, I apologize. Nonetheless, there's a difference between insulting one of your posts and calling you stupid. Anyhow, now that we're bestest buddies, I'll move on with the rest of your post.


Anyway, my thoughts on the display of the Confederate flag are complex. The various state and local governments should not display it because it is a symbol of an attempt to dissolve the Union, because it is a symbol of slavery, and because whatever way of life it represents is long gone (and is largely a romantic dream that never actually existed.) There are exceptions to that, of course. Teachers should be able to display the Stars and Bars during lessons on the Civil War, just as they might display a Union Jack during a lesson on the American Revolution. A teacher should not be able to display one during a lesson on economics or in Health class without a darn good reason. I can see no reason for having one fly over a state capitol, and the only reason for flying one over a county courthouse is if it's part of some tourist or historical setting.

I agree with everything in this paragraph.


Individuals, however, who wish to display it should be allowed to.

I agree with this also, with a few possible exceptions. For instance, school dorm rooms are not private property, and it's not quite clear when the same rules should apply and when they shouldn't. However, to me, the real question is not whether people should be ALLOWED to (of course they should), but to what extent they're being assholes by doing so. Your thoughts on that?


Anyhow, given the very-reasonable positions you espoused in this post, what, precisely was the point of your original post?

Slavery was allowed in the US. Is the US flag likewise tainted with racism?

[Coffee Manic]

However, to me, the real question is not whether people should be ALLOWED to (of course they should), but to what extent they're being assholes by doing so. Your thoughts on that?

That would depend on their reasoning for displaying the Confederate flag. Six Flags over Texas is not engaging in assholery -- it was one of the "six" flags that did, indeed, fly over Texas.

Jimmy Joe Bob in his 4X4 full of beer cans with the flag draped across his back windshield is probably of the opinion that them niggers need to go back where they came from. Jimmy Joe Bob is an asshole in this, as he is in almost every other facet of his limited understanding. The only question is this: Is Jimmy Joe Bob a mean and hateful person by choice, or does he just not know any better?



Anyhow, given the very-reasonable positions you espoused in this post, what, precisely was the point of your original post?


Slavery was allowed in the US. Is the US flag likewise tainted with racism?

Hope I didn't screw up the nested quotes.

The point was simple -- the US flag is also tainted with racism. Racism was written into the very foundation of this country, and it remained in place until only very recently. Could a Black man vote for President prior to the Civil War? No. That puts a pretty definite taint of racism directly on the US flag. Now, we can discuss levels of tainting or the differences between racism and slavery, but the fact remains that racism has been (and probably still is) part and parcel of the US as a nation.

[Captain Amazing]

Could a Black man vote for President prior to the Civil War? No.

That's actually not true. In New York, for example, until 1820, there was no racial requirement for sufferage. After 1820, one was introduced, and in the 1846 constitution, it said that blacks could vote if they lived in the state for a time period 3 times as long as the time period for white voters, and paid a poll tax.

In fact, at the time of the ratification of the Constitution, the only states that had racial qualifications in their constitutions regarding sufferage were South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia, Georgia, Maryland and Delaware. At the time of the Civil War, at least some blacks could vote in New York, Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Rhode Island, and Massachussets.

[monstro]

Personally, I would like to hear still more from African-Americans who have travelled around the country.

I have only had the word "nigger" thrown at me two times in my life. Once was when I was in the Panhandle. The other was when I was in New Jersey.

My opinion? I think the South is where incidents like the one cited in the OP are more likely to occur.

If you want to meet people who are racist but think they aren't? Go north.

[Coffee Manic]

In fact, at the time of the ratification of the Constitution, the only states that had racial qualifications in their constitutions regarding sufferage were South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia, Georgia, Maryland and Delaware. At the time of the Civil War, at least some blacks could vote in New York, Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Rhode Island, and Massachussets.

I did not know that. Thanks, Captain Amazing.

[Coffee Manic]

I'm sure that this applies to this discussion, somehow:


Lynchings reached a peak of 230 in 1892, but they were prevalent well into the 1930s. Twenty lynchings were reported in 1935.

During that time, nearly 200 anti-lynching bills were introduced in Congress, and three passed the House. Seven presidents between 1890 and 1952 petitioned Congress to pass a federal law.

But the Senate, with Southern conservatives wielding their filibuster powers, refused to act. With the enactment of civil rights laws in the 1960s and changes in national attitudes, the issue faded away.


from http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050613/ap_on_go_co/lynching_apology

Just saw it on Yahoo's front page, so I thought I'd mention it.

[MaxTheVool]

Jimmy Joe Bob in his 4X4 full of beer cans with the flag draped across his back windshield is probably of the opinion that them niggers need to go back where they came from. Jimmy Joe Bob is an asshole in this, as he is in almost every other facet of his limited understanding. The only question is this: Is Jimmy Joe Bob a mean and hateful person by choice, or does he just not know any better?

Actually, Jimmy Joe Bob is an asshole, obviously, and is hardly worth discussing. The really tricky cases are ones like this:
The Confederate Flag Prom Dress (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42046)

Now, this girl MIGHT be a majorly racist asshole. But it's also quite likely that she's basically non-racist in her day to day life, truly despises the racist aspects of Southern history, but views the confederate flag as a symbol of regional pride and "heritage", without necessarily thinking too hard about precisely what that means. Now, I still claim that her dress-wearing is assholish, in that it's so easy and common (and logical) for black students to interpret the flag as a symbol of hate and racism, and I think she's being an insensitive tool, but she's a far more complex and interesting case than Jimmy Joe Bob.


The question of "under what circumstances should one not do something to avoid offending others" is an interesting and non-trivial one. To me, there are two important considerations:
(1) Is the number of people offended sizeable?
(2) Is their claim to offense one with which I sympathize?

Not displaying the confederate flag is supported by both (1) and (2). Whereas, saying "african american" instead of "black" is supported by neither, as (1) no one seems to care, and (2) it's a stupid phrase with stupid justifications. (Not that I'm saying that something automatically gets done if it fits both of those considerations and not otherwise, or anything of that sort...)



The point was simple -- the US flag is also tainted with racism.
I'm sorry, but I still think this comparison is just laughable. If someone says that they're bothered by something due to strong and clear connections between it and some horrible thing, and your response is "well, shouldn't you also be bothered by something else, as it also has connections to that thing?", but these connections are vastly more tenuous, it really seems (to me) like an attempt to trivialize the original concerns. For instance:

A: I wish you wouldn't keep singing "MacArthur Park" all the time. As you know, my father had a heart attack and died during a performance of that, and it was the last thing he heard, and it makes me think of him.
B: But there was a lot of OXYGEN at that performance, and the last thing he breathed before dying was OXYGEN. Shouldn't OXYGEN disturb you also?

It's not so much that B is a ridiculous comparison (and my B is FAR more ridiculous than yours), it's that it seems to be a bit of a slap in the face because it shouldn't even be necessary to spell out the difference between the song and oxygen, or between the confederate flag and the US flag.


At least, that's how I see it.

[MaxTheVool]

I'm sure that this applies to this discussion, somehow:


Well, if our standard is that decades-old racist acts in the North are irrelevant, then decades-old racist acts in the South should be irrelevant, as well.

[Coffee Manic]

If someone says that they're bothered by something due to strong and clear connections between it and some horrible thing, and your response is "well, shouldn't you also be bothered by something else, as it also has connections to that thing?", but these connections are vastly more tenuous, it really seems (to me) like an attempt to trivialize the original concerns.

I think this is where we differ.

I think that singling out an obvious bogeyman, while ignoring bogeymanishness (wow) in other places, is a trivialization. We no longer hate the thing, we hate something that stands for the thing.

It's easy to view the Confederate flag with disdain because of it's ties to racism, slavery, and general assholery, while lauding the American flag as a symbol of freedom and justice -- but that view is incorrect, and it trivializes the facts that many Northerners were (and are) every bit as racist as their Southern counterparts, that slavery was tolerated and even supported for many years by the Northern states, and that many lynchings of Black people took place north of the Mason-Dixon line.

Does the American flag bear some taint of racism and slavery? To me, yes. An imperfect analogy as to why could be the mother of an abused child -- a mother who knows what's going on, but who doesn't make any move to stop the abuse. She bears some taint of that abuse, even though she has never participated in the abuse, itself.

(disclaimer: not all mothers of abused children are aware that the abuse is ongoing, while others know that it's happening, try to stop it, but fail, often in fear for their lives -- these are not the mothers I'm referring to.)

As to the dress, that sort of thing doesn't really happen often enough for me to get worked up about. If it did, it wouldn't be news. The lady in question is exhibiting several symptoms of assholery, primarily insensitivity. So I think we agree there.

[user_hostile]

I have only had the word "nigger" thrown at me two times in my life. Once was when I was in the Panhandle. The other was when I was in New Jersey.

My opinion? I think the South is where incidents like the one cited in the OP are more likely to occur.

If you want to meet people who are racist but think they aren't? Go north.

I'll give my lame, two cent opinion about regional racial attitudes monsto,

1) The South is usually honest about their feelings

2) The North and Mid-west regions like to hide it.

3) California is odd, "We all get along--just as long as you go back to your neighborhood at the end of the day."

I've lived in all three areas. Only after living in the Washington, DC metro area for seven years was I able to see it in California (and my own BTW). However, give California its due-- the racial attitudes seemed to involve everybody--sorta of a racial anti-harmony if you will... White/Hispanic, Black/Hispanic, Philiphino/Japanese, etc. I've heard Hawaii is full of racial animosity between all of the asians/oceania groups. Can any Doper out there substantiate this rumor?

[Coffee Manic]

Also, I apologize for my earlier snarkiness. You're plenty smart and a worthy opponent.

And I just figured out what "The Pit" is for. I'm not at all certain that I meant to be in here....

[boofuu]

Personally, I would like to hear still more from African-Americans who have travelled around the country.

Without starting a "my racism is bigger than yours" thread, I will give you a few examples from my life.

Keep in mind I am a well educated 27 year old woman who grew up in Brooklyn NY. I attended a nearly all-black elementary school and a nearly all white high school , both in NY, and a public university in the South. My friends are all of various races and nationalities. *skip to the final paragraph if you just want my conclusion*

This happened in NY: I was once threatened with a machete by a Korean store owner for supposedly bruising his fruit. He called me a nigger and other things. I was 9. Then and now, in retrospect, I did not consider that to be a racist incident. Probably because the man was a minority and a foreigner. I believe racism is prejudice with power. My mentioned "INS" to him and he promptly cooled down. I did not feel threatened.

In NY, the "racism" I have perceived came more in the condescending "you speak so well!" comments from white people who seem to find it amazing that I, you know, read books. These are small comments, nothing blatant, but they hurt very much. I feel like I have to prove I am as good or better than anyone else. After awhile you look for them all the time and it is not a nice way to live. I find this more in academic settings now where educated white people will slip with a comment like that.

Now, I've moved down the Mason-Dixon line to NC. I have spent most of my time in more open cities, Wilmington and Chapel Hill. I was APALLED the first time I was called a nigger here. Despite it being the South, and may not be deepest darkest Mississippi, I was not expecting it. No one expects the racism or the Spanish Inquistion. I was walking down Franklin St. and joking with friends. I happened to make some monkey noises as the punchline to a joke. These two white men were walking behind us, I will call them rednecks, cause you know the type I mean. One turns to the other and says "I told you all them niggers is monkeys." I stopped dead in my tracks and was stricken dumb for a minute, no exaggeration. I have never felt more violated in my life. I felt dirty. To this day, I will not look at toy monkey, touch a toy monkey, see them in a zoo, do anything that even remotely resembles simian-like behavior in public.

I was also refused service in a fucking Waffle House once because I was accompanied by two white males. The staff acted like we were not there. There were cops in the "restaurant" and when we complained they said that maybe we should just leave. Do you know that the only requirement to work in a Waffle House is to have a 5th grade education? Anyway, irony was I was with one of the most bigoted white men I am sure I will ever meet. We were only together because we were in the same debate club and he could not vote me out. On the upshot, I got a free meal voucher at any Waffle House. I call it my race card.

And my freshman year roommates, from the city of Liddy Dole and Cheerwine, as they liked to tell me, they require more room and memories than I feel necessary to use.

So, what does this all mean? Nothing, other than I like to talk about myself and that I have had more bad experiences in the South, I guess. I think youwill find most Black people who have spent time in the North and South will be able to spot more in the South. I cannot say that it really means anything. Are we looking for examples to "prove" the point that the good ole south ain't so good? Are Northerners more enlightened? I don't know that all the examples in the world will prove or really indicate anything. They will certainly not stop anything. The bigger question is how will we make sure that cases like the subject of OP do not happen again.

[MaxTheVool]

Cite? I don't think anyone here has been attacked as being racist or felt the need to defend themselves as not being racist. If I am mistaken, a cite will be appreciated.

Hmmm. I've reread this entire thread (oh, the work I should be doing instead of doping) and admit that I can't find a clear example of that. At least in this thread. But to quote the learned Boofuu:

I also think Southerners are automatically defensive when it comes to the subject (and this is borne from constant accusation of racism).




The South continues to have racial problems.

I agree.


When a Northerner points at a racial incident in the South and invokes the "Old South" label, he is invoking a stereotype of the bigoted Southerner which relies largely on the South's ties to slavery which ended 140 years ago.

I'm not sure I see your point. The "Old South" was famously, and proudly, racist, up until quite recently. When racist things happen, is it preposterous to use that label and claim a connection? What would strike me as preposterous would be to start referring to "Old South" racism in contexts in which there were NOT racist occurrences, ie, continually refer to southern states as "Old South" states in a sneering way when discussing, say, their principle exports.


The irony is that the North's ties to slavery ended 140-210 years ago (approximately).

Sure, slavery ended in the North just a hairblink before it ended in the South, in historical terms. But in the North it was (overall) voluntary, whereas in the South it was enforced by the bloodiest and most damaging event in US history, and resentment of that event led to 100+ years of severe and open prejudice. I think your comparison is pretty meaningless.


The North continues to have racial problems.

Agreed.


The South has admitted to its problems all along.

Eh. Sometimes.


But there is no crime in acknowledging that we've made progress.

Indeed. And I greatly respect that progress. And I also acknowledge and praise the fact that so many of the leaders in the fight against racism have themselves been Southern.





Why isn't it bigotry to promote the idea that Southerners are racially prejudiced?

There's a difference between assuming that someone is racially prejudiced just because he's southern, which is bigotry (albeit not nearly as harmful as, say, beating someone to a pulp) and stating that the South, as a region, has more of a problem with racism than other parts of the country. That's a crucial distinction.


Personally, I would like to hear still more from African-Americans who have travelled around the country.

As would I.



Anyhow, to sum up, I'm not trying to accuse any individual person of racism, belittle the strides that have been made in racial tolerance over the years, or claim that there is no racism outside the South. However, I do continue to believe that the statement "there is more general cultural acceptance of racist attitudes in the South than in other parts of the country" is a true one, in fact a very clearly true one. I also think "there is more racism in the South than in other parts of the country" is a true statement, although a bit less of a slam dunk, as hidden racism is even harder to quantify than more open racism.

[Coffee Manic]

I've heard Hawaii is full of racial animosity between all of the asians/oceania groups. Can any Doper out there substantiate this rumor?

I haven't really been in Hawaii all that much.

But I can say that I've seen Black servicemen refused service in a Japanese-owned restaurant in Japan, simply because they were Black. I've seen Filipinos physically chase Japanese people out of a restaurant in the Philippines. I've seen a Japanese-American serviceman refused service in a Korean bar -- he had actually ordered and been served when the owner (?) came over and took his food away because he was part Japanese. I've seen bars and restaurants in the Philippines which sported large signs "NO AMERICANS" -- and believe you me, Americans don't want to go inside.

[Nic2004]

Max- I think that what I'm trying to say is that the old saying 'The winner gets to write the history". For many years it was presented as the wicked, hateful Southerns torturing the nergros and the Great USA going to the rescue. This simplistic view has been rooted in for many generations. My understanding, in a nutshell is:
The Northern industrial states controlled both Houses of Congress, having more industrial states and greater populations. They voted in laws requiring the South to sell its agri-products to Northern factories ONLY. As cotton was now all the rage in Europe (where wool was the long-time norm) this was a huge market. England had many textile mills but could not buy the cotton directly. Not to mention tobacco and turpintine. Since there was a Northern corner on the market by law, they could set the price, which was unfairly low. The South protested this unfair practice but it fell on deaf ears.
Then Cuba requested consideration for Statehood. Good news right? Wrong. It would enter the Union as a slave-state and upset the balance of power in Congress. Oh, we can't have that! Consider for a moment the ramifications to current politics if Cuba, sixty miles from Florida, was not a communist nation in the early sixties. Bay of Pigs, Missile Crisis? It was denied and the rest, as they say, is history.
When North Carolina seceeded from the Union, it felt it had the right to do so. When the Founding Fathers set up the Articles of Confederation, the biggest stumbling block was States Rights. The bigger, more populated States dictating to the smaller populations. IMO, they were of the opinion that the Union was not working and they had no voice in the Nations laws. They had no intention to have a war with the combined forces of the industrial North with it's standing army and infrastructure of weapons factories and railroad delivery systems. They thought it to be their right. "We tried it but it hasn't worked out. We're out of here". At the high-point of the war, the North had Four Million soldiers, trained and equiped, compaired to One Million in the South, mostly farmers with what ever weapons they could bring from home.
Was slavery a primary issue? Not in my opinion. Not initialy. IIRC, Gen. Lee freed his slaves before Grant freed his. I think the South had a vested interest in slavery. The entire economy was driven by cheap labor. Even with this, the laws concerning trade with Europe made it difficult. Then, there is talk of freeing the slaves. Overnight, as it were. Oh sure, you can hire them on as workers with pay but there is the Catch 22. Profits are down from Northern laws and now, Northerners want us to have to pay our workers too?
Then, the last straw. The North elects Lincoln, a Northerner who, before politics, was a lawyer for the Railroad robber-barons. The corruption of this bunch and the crimes against regular people is another story. His pro-Northern, big industry record was well known in the South.
All hope was lost. There was nothing left to do but seceed. One can only imagine how difficult a decision this would be to those in North Carolina. How bad must it be to require such a drastic and heart-breaking step?
Sorry to go into so much. I am not a professional historian, just one who has read a great deal on the topic.
Max- you have been a fair and level-headed factor in this discussion and, though we may disagree, I sincerly hope nothing I have said will be taken as a personal slight against you.
I think Boofuu said it best:
The bigger question is how will we make sure that cases like the subject of OP do not happen again.

[Zoe]

holmes: ...In Upstate NY Confederate flags are not out of place....so I guess it depends on where and when you are.

During the Presidential election I noticed that there were areas of Upstate NY that supported Bush by a wide margin and I was very puzzled by it. But I am stunned that they actually use the Confederate battle flag as a symbol. (I am assuming that it is the same general area.) Nashville voted blue.

MaxTheVool: I'm not sure I see your point. The "Old South" was famously, and proudly, racist, up until quite recently. When racist things happen, is it preposterous to use that label and claim a connection?

I hate to break the news to you, but the Old South hasn't done anything since the Civil War. The term refers to the antebellum South.

There have been many Southerners who have been racist and a few of the ignorant ones have even been proud of their racism. There is another kind of bigot that's just mean-spirited and stupid -- but probably not particularly proud of it one way or the other. There are people who think they are right liberal, but don't realize that they still discriminate, and so on. There are so many different shades and levels and depths and differences that it is ignorant to apply a label.

When there is a cross-burning on Long Island, I don't dredge up New York State's history of slavery (which was longer than Tennessee's) and talk about the Old North racism and find the connection. Why do you want to continue to paint us with the same old paint? This is an honest question, Max.

But in the North it was (overall) voluntary, whereas in the South it was enforced by the bloodiest and most damaging event in US history, and resentment of that event led to 100+ years of severe and open prejudice. I think your comparison is pretty meaningless.

I won't argue with you about the reasons for the war. Slavery was part of it. But you know how men are about fighting for their side whatever the reason is.. Most of the men who fought did not own slaves. They weren't going into battle with the single thought of "Keep the slaves!" They went because that's where the war was and that's where their brothers and friends were and someone was attacking or someone was saying they couldn't do this or that. They were "protecting their way of life." Isn't that what it always is?

I'm not making any excuse for them. But if I remember correctly, Virginia had already come within one vote in their legislature of abolishing slavery. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) Delaware still had slaves.

Although the South has never completely recovered economically from the Civil War, resentment over the loss began to fade even with the generation that fought. My grandfather was a Confederate soldier. He told my father that it would never have done for the South to have won the war. My father refused to join the Sons of the Confederacy or to take part in any reenactments. I have not joined the Daughters of the Confederacy nor will I.

There are many people interested in the history of the South and of the war itself and who love Southern traditions who are not racists, Max. All I ask is that you lread and weigh carefully the posts of Snuffy, boofuu, and monstro.


" The bigger question is how will we make sure that cases like the subject of OP do not happen again." -- boofuu

[Liberal]

This New York yankee thinks that green beans can be enjoyed in no other way. I suppose there must be deeper divides between north and south than racial politics.If I told you how we cook them — long and slow on low heat with a big slab of fatback for hours until they drape over a fork like clocks painted by Salvador Dali — you'd faint.

[Nic2004]

If I told you how we cook them — long and slow on low heat with a big slab of fatback for hours until they drape over a fork like clocks painted by Salvador Dali — you'd faint.
Mmmm...greeeen beeeans!

[Maeglin]

If I told you how we cook them — long and slow on low heat with a big slab of fatback for hours until they drape over a fork like clocks painted by Salvador Dali — you'd faint.

Grease is good and green beans are good, so I would probably give it a try. But wars have been fought over more trivial differences in human affairs.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

If I told you how we cook them — long and slow on low heat with a big slab of fatback for hours until they drape over a fork like clocks painted by Salvador Dali — you'd faint.

Now, see, I'll defend my grits to my death, and a skillet corn bread is a thing of beauty, and well-fried catfish can bring tears to my eyes, and nothing beats a beaten biscuit, and eastern NC barbeque is the meat I miss the most.

But it's this way of cooking vegetables into submission, treating all things green like they're an enemy that must be destroyed, that keeps me from endorsing Southern Cooking. Candied yams, sulphurous cabbage, collards cooked into pondscum, and green beans like the contents of a pig's upper intestine--what's the point?

Daniel

[holmes]

During the Presidential election I noticed that there were areas of Upstate NY that supported Bush by a wide margin and I was very puzzled by it. But I am stunned that they actually use the Confederate battle flag as a symbol. (I am assuming that it is the same general area.) Nashville voted blue.

The most popular music Upstate is Country and Western...so I don't know if the symbol is just another bit of "country" or something more sinister. Without the cultural tie to it, Northerners could very well feel it's just a symbol of country life. I don't know.

[Liberal]

It ain't just greenery. Pintos are cooked until they're mushy and their broth is thick and soupy. Same same for black pead eye-balls. Skillet fried corn (shoepeg, of course). And little green balls. And don't forget potatoes, cooked so long and mashed so smooth that they're called "cream potatoes". With a wood stove, all the better. And the biscuits. Oh, lord, the heavenly light biscuits, made with lard and buttermilk, slathering on the fresh churned butter while the steam escapes. Oh, to be poor again.

[Greathouse]

It ain't just greenery. Pintos are cooked until they're mushy and their broth is thick and soupy. Same same for black pead eye-balls. Skillet fried corn (shoepeg, of course). And little green balls. And don't forget potatoes, cooked so long and mashed so smooth that they're called "cream potatoes". With a wood stove, all the better. And the biscuits. Oh, lord, the heavenly light biscuits, made with lard and buttermilk, slathering on the fresh churned butter while the steam escapes. Oh, to be poor again.


Ok, seriously, is there really another way to cook these foods? And how the hell does someone end up with crunchy green beans? I've been to two county fairs and a Sunday revival and I've never heard of such a thing. :eek:

[MaxTheVool]

It's easy to view the Confederate flag with disdain because of it's ties to racism, slavery, and general assholery, while lauding the American flag as a symbol of freedom and justice -- but that view is incorrect, and it trivializes the facts that many Northerners were (and are) every bit as racist as their Southern counterparts, that slavery was tolerated and even supported for many years by the Northern states, and that many lynchings of Black people took place north of the Mason-Dixon line.


I have two primary disagreements with you:
(1) There's a big difference between a symbol that is associated with something, and a symbol that specifically STANDS for something. For instance, there was a lot of anti-Chinese racism in California during the Gold Rush. But no one (as far as I knew) ever took up the California state flag (you know, with the bear) and used it a symbol of anti-Chinese hatred. The bear flag wasn't scrawled on burned out houses of Chinese people, or carried around while Chinese people were being lynched. At no point was there a huge schism in California with the bear-flag-carrying people being far more anti-Chinese than the other people. Thus, as far as I know, there are very few, if any, Chinese people who are bothered or offended by the California flag.

(2) While the US flag oversaw slavery, etc., it ALSO oversaw abolition, the civil rights movement, etc. It was the flag of Martin Luther King Jr., William Lloyd Garrison, Harriet Beecher Stowe and Rosa Parks, just as it was the flag of slavery before 1860. That should certainly count for something.

[MaxTheVool]

Also, I apologize for my earlier snarkiness. You're plenty smart and a worthy opponent.


Likewise. And, of course, your participation in this discussion self-evidently demonstrates that your initial post was not a drive-by.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

It ain't just greenery. Pintos are cooked until they're mushy and their broth is thick and soupy. Same same for black pead eye-balls. Skillet fried corn (shoepeg, of course). And little green balls. And don't forget potatoes, cooked so long and mashed so smooth that they're called "cream potatoes". With a wood stove, all the better. And the biscuits. Oh, lord, the heavenly light biscuits, made with lard and buttermilk, slathering on the fresh churned butter while the steam escapes. Oh, to be poor again.
Them things is all good (excepting the little green balls--are these peas, and are you suggesting that eating peas cooked to the consistency of algae is for the best? if so, I gotta disagree: I learned as a toddler to eat peas right off my grandpa's pea-vines in the backyard, where they were better than the best candy). But them things ain't vegetables: they're beans and starches. (And don't try telling me potatoes are vegetables; I won't have none of that science-talk in my food).

It's the war against tasty vegetables that's the problem in Southern cooking. When vegetables are served raw, they're slathered in mayonnaise or, worse, Miracle Whip, covering up their tastiness under congealed soured fat. No good.

Cooking green beans until my ninety-year-old grandma can drink them through a straw is every bit as awful as cooking a steak until a biker would steal it off me to patch his jacket.

Daniel

[MaxTheVool]

First of all, I'm certainly not a Civil War scholar, just a guy from California who's read Battle Cry of Freedom and Lies My Teacher Told Me (among other things).

For many years it was presented as the wicked, hateful Southerns torturing the nergros

How odd that chattel slavery would be described as torture. Blatant historical revisionism.

Certainly you're not just making stuff up in your post, but you do seem to be glossing over one enormous issue: The union was (with the exception of the border states) made up of states where slavery was illegal. The confederacy was made up of states where slavery was legal. And the continuation of slavery was a root cause of the war. To a certain extent, who cares what the other factors were? If a serial killer child molestor and a normal guy with normal-guy-flaws are fighting to the death over whether to keep serially killing and molesting children, do you stop and say "well, that one guy occasionally gets drunk and slaps his kids around. I guess he's really no better than that other guy who sodomizes little kids to death with a chainsaw. And when he's not sodomizing little kids to death, he has a lovely singing voice, and cooks fabulous regional cuisine"?


Was slavery a primary issue? Not in my opinion. Not initialy.

Then why was continuation of slavery written into the confederate constitution? Why was it so generally accepted that Uncle Tom's Cabin was a catalyst for the war? Why didn't any free states join the confederacy?



Look: it's certainly true that there are plenty of moral ambiguities concerning the civil war, two primary ones being:
(a) there were plenty of evil people in the North, and plenty of links between the North and the slave trade, including slave owners in the North, particularly in border states
(b) there were huge numbers of non-evil people in the South. Significant portions of the Southern population (maybe even a majority) did not own slaves. And there's something troubling about judging people just because they bought into the prejudices of their society.


Nonetheless, the fact remains that the South was an entire country whose entire reason for being was the continuation of slavery. No amount of glossing over makes this go away. If the Smith family has a long tradition of killing and eating female babies, and the police show up at the Smith family compound and say "We have a court order here demanding that you stop eating female babies", and you're a cousin of the Smith family who does not, personally, eat female babies, but you show up with a gun to defend the Smith family compound and claim that you're just there because you believe in the sanctity of private family compounds, and you personally have no opinion on the baby-eating, you're still supporting baby-eating.


Something for you to ponder: If there's a paradigm shift in the popular understanding of the civil war, and everyone adopts a "there were many causes of the War for Southern Independence, including economic factors, states' rights issues, and regional rivalries and slavery" viewpoint, who benefits from that?



Max- you have been a fair and level-headed factor in this discussion and, though we may disagree, I sincerly hope nothing I have said will be taken as a personal slight against you.

Thank you, and likewise.


I think Boofuu said it best:

Agreed. But that doesn't mean this tangent isn't an interesting one.

[Liberal]

Well, Lefty, you make some good points. I, too, like raw peas. And I, too, condemn Miracle Whip to hell. Now, mayonnaise (that is to say, of course, Dukes — there is no other) is to be reserved for delicacies like banana sandwiches. On Merita bread, needless to say.

[MaxTheVool]

I hate to break the news to you, but the Old South hasn't done anything since the Civil War. The term refers to the antebellum South.

To me, the distinction between the actual Old South and the "legacy of the Old South" is relatively irrelevant with respect to discussions like this one.


There have been many Southerners who have been racist and a few of the ignorant ones have even been proud of their racism. There is another kind of bigot that's just mean-spirited and stupid -- but probably not particularly proud of it one way or the other. There are people who think they are right liberal, but don't realize that they still discriminate, and so on. There are so many different shades and levels and depths and differences that it is ignorant to apply a label.

There are plenty of condescending liberal hypocrites. But if I were a black father, I'd (on average) rather my daughter encountered one of them in a dark alley than the other kinds of bigots you mention. But really, that's neither here nor there.


When there is a cross-burning on Long Island, I don't dredge up New York State's history of slavery (which was longer than Tennessee's) and talk about the Old North racism and find the connection.

Why not? If there IS a connection, you should bring it up, because it might well be germaine. Or do you think that problems with racism that persist in the South now are totally coincidentally unrelated to the civil war, slavery, etc.? Not that I'm saying that the only response to any racist event is to say "Haha! You guys are still racists who wish you owned slaves! And we beat you in the civil war! Nyah nyah nyah!". But I get really irked by the attitude of "well, the civil war was really all about economic issues. We were going to free the slaves a month later anyhow. Why do people keep associating racism with the South? What about all the racism in fucking CALIFORNIA????? And now you're prejudiced against me! You're a bigot too! Did I mention that the War Between The States was all about States Rights? And the confederate flag is a symbol of Heritage! Heritage Heritage Heritage!!!!!". And yes, I'm exaggerating, probably in poor taste, but, to try to make the same point somewhat more calmly, I don't think it's a coincidence that the events in the OP happened in Texas and not Oregon, and I get a strong feeling that a lot of Texans and Southerners kind of feel the same way, but feel that they can't admit it without being traitors to their region, thus, they bristle up, get defensive, strike back, and the conversation goes to hell.




Why do you want to continue to paint us with the same old paint? This is an honest question, Max.

Am I painting you with any brush? Note my very first post in this thread:
"Trying to get an otherwise reasonable, and personally non-racist, southerner to admit that there's more racism in the south than in other parts of the country is like pulling Superman's teeth."

I've been very very clear in this thread that I'm not condemning all, or even most, Southerners. If you say "California has a problem with excessive flakiness and new-agey-ness" I won't argue, nor will I feel that you're attacking me. (A different, far more problematic, example would be this: I post something in a thread on a totally unrelated topic, and you respond by saying "ahh, typical California new-age flakiness.")





I won't argue with you about the reasons for the war. Slavery was part of it. But you know how men are about fighting for their side whatever the reason is.. Most of the men who fought did not own slaves. They weren't going into battle with the single thought of "Keep the slaves!" They went because that's where the war was and that's where their brothers and friends were and someone was attacking or someone was saying they couldn't do this or that. They were "protecting their way of life." Isn't that what it always is?

I certainly agree that the average Joe Confederate Soldier wasn't bravely charging the Union lines while thinking "I can't wait to finish killing these damnyankees so I can go home and continue to own and subjugate other human beings! Go slavery!". In fact, I'm quite certain that his thoughts were the same mixture of bravery, fear, love-of-family, group-bonding-with-his-buddies, etc., that the guy he was about to kill-or-be-killed-by had. I don't hate southerners now, and I don't retroactively hate the average southerner then. However, they were choosing to align themselves with a great evil, and I don't think that can or should be ignored or glossed over.


Although the South has never completely recovered economically from the Civil War, resentment over the loss began to fade even with the generation that fought. My grandfather was a Confederate soldier. He told my father that it would never have done for the South to have won the war. My father refused to join the Sons of the Confederacy or to take part in any reenactments. I have not joined the Daughters of the Confederacy nor will I.

But to what extent was your experience typical? That's certainly the first time I've heard it claimed that resentment over the war began to fade that quickly. In fact, I would have said that resentment over the war continues to the present day.


There are many people interested in the history of the South and of the war itself and who love Southern traditions who are not racists, Max.

Absolutely. (And, again, I pointed that out in my very first post this thread.)


All I ask is that you lread and weigh carefully the posts of Snuffy, boofuu, and monstro.

Do you have any reason to think I don't?

[Captain Amazing]

During the Presidential election I noticed that there were areas of Upstate NY that supported Bush by a wide margin and I was very puzzled by it. But I am stunned that they actually use the Confederate battle flag as a symbol. (I am assuming that it is the same general area.) Nashville voted blue.


I grew up in upstate NY and never saw any Confederate flags. I'm not saying that none exist, but Confederate flag flying isn't really a big hobby up there. And, btw, as you learned, upstate NY is really Republican.

[bouv]

I grew up in upstate NY and never saw any Confederate flags. I'm not saying that none exist, but Confederate flag flying isn't really a big hobby up there. And, btw, as you learned, upstate NY is really Republican.

Might I ask what part of upstate? There's several version of upstate. For a lot of people living in NYC and Logn Island, upstate is any part of New York that isn't NYC or Long Island, i.e., 99% of the state. This includes palces like Ithaca, Buffalo, and Rochester, which are not, by any strech of the imagination, upstate New York.

"Real" upstate is, IMO, the strip of land around the Hudon river, basically. It starts at about West Point (maybe a bit more north than that) and goes as far north as Lake George. It goes as East as to the border to MA and VT, and as far west as...umm...well, I dunno, having not been in much western NY, but Utica and Binghamtom are the absolute western limits. This part of pstate is mostly liberal, with it's epicenter at Albany. There are certainly parts that are more conservative, but for the most part, except more liberal senators from this region.

Then there is the third definition of upstate. I don't know where this def. comes from, but it's a hybrid of the first two. It seems to cover basicalyl what I said, but the northern boundry in now Canada, not Lake George. This, my friends, is not upstate...it is The North Country, and it is aptly named, cause it's...well...North.

Now, once one gets up past Lake George, the politcal climate chagnes drastically to a much more conservative agenda. The majority of people live in small towns of a few thousand. Now, I myself, having live in "real" upsate for four years and here in the North Country for almsot one have noticed a huge difference. I probably have seen confederate flag stuickers, but I don't really notice them. I will be on the look out for them and report my findings. I have not, however, witnessed any more racism here than any other place I have lived. I meet the occaisional person who makes a random comment about "them people" (insert non-white race of choice for "them people", but most people could care less what race you are.

Sexual orientation, on the other hand...well, let's just say I feel sorry for anyone who grew up here and/or livse here and is gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgenered/etc...

[Zoe]

MaxTheVool: To me, the distinction between the actual Old South and the "legacy of the Old South" is relatively irrelevant with respect to discussions like this one.

I know that you think that the distinction is irrelevant. Part of the point that I have been trying to make is that the distinction is enormously relevant. We don't live in the Old South and we don't know anyone who did.

I know there are pockets of prejudice, but it is not a way of life here anymore. For some reason, it seems important to you to believe that it is.

I can speak only about what I have seen around me and how it has changed for six decades. I've never lived anywhere but Tennessee although I've travelled in the North quite a bit. My work was in African-American neighborhoods, but I know that my viewpoint is still limited. Despite twenty years in that neighborhood, I wouldn't dream of considering myself an authority on that community. So how can you claim to understand the South?

(originally by Zoe):
"When there is a cross-burning on Long Island, I don't dredge up New York State's history of slavery (which was longer than Tennessee's) and talk about the Old North racism and find the connection."

Why not? If there IS a connection, you should bring it up, because it might well be germaine.

Look at boofuu's comment again: "The bigger question is how will we make sure that cases like the subject of OP do not happen again."

I don't think we find solutions by continuing to hang albatrosses around anyone's necks. We find out where the problems are and do something about them.

Or do you think that problems with racism that persist in the South now are totally coincidentally unrelated to the civil war, slavery, etc.?

I think that problems with racism that remain in both the North and the South are related to the fact that most African-American ancestors were brought here as slaves.

But I get really irked by the attitude of "well, the civil war was really all about economic issues. We were going to free the slaves a month later anyhow.

Do you think that the Civil War was not about economic issues? Do you think that slavery was not an economic issue? Have I expressed an attitude about the causes of the war that has irked you? Just curious. (I'm not a historian and just gave my opinion.)


Why do people keep associating racism with the South? What about all the racism in fucking CALIFORNIA????? And now you're prejudiced against me! You're a bigot too!

I haven't mentioned racism in California. I've never been there and I don't know enough about the state to pass judgment. So I think it's reasonable to wonder why people are so quick to assume that these pockets of prejudice reflect reality. After all, it was rare enough that it did make the newspaper!

What it reminds me of are some people who live in the Middle East who see movies set in New York or Hollywood and think that all of America is like that. I wish just once I could see a program on television about Nashville or Tennessee or the South without a fiddle or a banjo playing music in the background.


Did I mention that the War Between The States was all about States Rights? And the confederate flag is a symbol of Heritage! Heritage Heritage Heritage!!!!!".

Please reread my own comments about the Civil War and the Confederate Battle flag. If you think you are sickened by it, please remember that I am reviled by symbols of an area of the country that is as dear to my heart as anyone's home is. I hope you understand what I am saying.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the events in the OP happened in Texas and not Oregon, and I get a strong feeling that a lot of Texans and Southerners kind of feel the same way, but feel that they can't admit it without being traitors to their region, thus, they bristle up, get defensive, strike back, and the conversation goes to hell.

Are you saying that things like this don't happen in the North? Have I denied at any point that there are still problems with racial prejudice in the South? Have I defended any acts of racism?

Am I painting you with any brush? Note my very first post in this thread:
"Trying to get an otherwise reasonable, and personally non-racist, southerner to admit that there's more racism in the south than in other parts of the country is like pulling Superman's teeth."

Notice that your brush is loaded with the paint of the words "otherwise reasonable." You leave no room for the possibility that Southerners who protest being portrayed as moral degenerates might be right about the South and you might be wrong.

I've been very very clear in this thread that I'm not condemning all, or even most, Southerners.

No, when you talk about the South and Southerners, that's us. This portrayal has gone on for a long, long time and for much of that time it was deserved by a majority of the population.

If you say "California has a problem with excessive flakiness and new-agey-ness" I won't argue, nor will I feel that you're attacking me. (A different, far more problematic, example would be this: I post something in a thread on a totally unrelated topic, and you respond by saying "ahh, typical California new-age flakiness.")

The stereotype of Southerners has done much more damage and is much more engrained into the psyche. (You wouldn't believe how often I run across comments at SDMB that perpetuate one of many myths.)

But I try not to stereotype too much and I don't mind being corrected when I do.

(originally posted by Zoe):
I won't argue with you about the reasons for the war. Slavery was part of it. But you know how men are about fighting for their side whatever the reason is.. Most of the men who fought did not own slaves. They weren't going into battle with the single thought of "Keep the slaves!" They went because that's where the war was and that's where their brothers and friends were and someone was attacking or someone was saying they couldn't do this or that. They were "protecting their way of life." Isn't that what it always is?

[quote]They were choosing to align themselves with a great evil, and I don't think that can or should be ignored or glossed over.

I agree.

But to what extent was your experience typical? That's certainly the first time I've heard it claimed that resentment over the war began to fade that quickly. In fact, I would have said that resentment over the war continues to the present day.

Consider that friendships have been established between former enemies during the Vietnam War. It really doesn't take long and forgiveness becomes part of the healing.

I don't know how typical my grandfather's experience was, but I know that the wildest of his brothers also experienced great regret.

I grew up without any feelings of resentment in my family. I was very surprised in the fifth grade when my teacher seemed to have a little bit of a grudge. I knew that no decent person could approve of slavery, so I asked her, "Are you glad that the South lost the 'Silver War'?" That woman screamed at me something fierce that she was NOT glad that the South had lost. Her answer and the tone of her voice frightened me enough that I've remembered it for half a century. And I still don't understand her or why I made her angry.

originally posted by Zoe:
All I ask is that you lread and weigh carefully the posts of Snuffy, boofuu, and monstro.

Do you have any reason to think I don't?

Maybe that could be just the residual English teacher coming out in me. (Quiz on Friday.) Or maybe I wondered why you didn't take Snuffy at his word about his own experiences. And monstro's a grown woman who lives in the South. I would give quite a bit of weight to her opinion. (But then, I do that anyway.) And boofuu's post is a keeper. I learned something new from it. It confirmed something I should have known.

Max, thanks for keeping this on a comfortable level. That is much appreciated.

[Captain Amazing]

Might I ask what part of upstate? There's several version of upstate. For a lot of people living in NYC and Logn Island, upstate is any part of New York that isn't NYC or Long Island, i.e., 99% of the state. This includes palces like Ithaca, Buffalo, and Rochester, which are not, by any strech of the imagination, upstate New York.

I grew up in the Capital District.

[eleanorigby]

Well, as to racial prejudice among other groups, I know this from observation and some discussion.

the Phillipinos* (some anyway) at work, have a real down on the Hispanics at work. I have seen 2-3 Phillipine nurses literally yell that they are NOT! if they are mistaken for Mexican or PR.

I don't understand it myself, but am told by some of the Mexicans that the Philipinos do not like Latino people. I, myself, get mildy irked if mistaken for Dutch--it's all so crazy/ We are all Americansx-what difference does it make?

No proof, no cite--just some anecdotes as requested.


*using shorthand instead of "people of Phillipine/Mexican descent" etc

As for the green beans--some of us don't like mush. I see no value in turning a veggie into wallpaper paste prior to ingesting it. Green beans up here are NOT "crunchy"--they retain their cellulose structure (along with their vitamins and fiber), unlike those down south.


One thing (and this is OT, sorry) that gets me about the whole "South" thing is the inherent condescension and arrogance pevalent there. Do they think that "family" only matters there? That property and wealth and legacy are only meangingful if wrapped in humidity and Spanish moss? Do they think they are the only ones with some sort of tragic, viable history or heritage? You can't travel in the South but trip over this attitude.

Certainly a connected family etc is something to be proud of--no argument there. It's the idea that stuff like that can only occur (a sort of genealogical provincialism) below the Mason-Dixon Line that bugs me. I am sure that not only the South suffers from this--but I have had experience with its cultural mypoia most. I have also spent some time in New England and I live in the Midwest--they(and we) can also have a provincial outlook, but it lacks the insufferableness of the southern "charm".




[/rant over]

[dropzone]

Although the South has never completely recovered economically from the Civil War....Is this true or is it that the South has never recovered completely from its choice in the early 19th century to concentrate on agriculture rather than industry?

[Coffee Manic]

While the US flag oversaw slavery, etc., it ALSO oversaw abolition, the civil rights movement, etc. It was the flag of Martin Luther King Jr., William Lloyd Garrison, Harriet Beecher Stowe and Rosa Parks, just as it was the flag of slavery before 1860. That should certainly count for something.

Oh, certainly it counts for quite a lot. Likewise, the current flag isn't the same as the one that flew over DC in 1865, so is that a different flag?

I saw something today, and I'm not quite sure what it means, if anything.

A pickup had a large sticker in the rear window:

WWBD
(a picture of a Confederate flag)
What Would Bubba Do?

Any ideas?

[Liberal]

Is this true or is it that the South has never recovered completely from its choice in the early 19th century to concentrate on agriculture rather than industry?I'm no expert, but in my opinion it wasn't really that bad a decision. And now, there's no shortage of industry. Or money, for that matter. The largest banking center in the world outside of New York City is Charlotte.

[Zoe]

dropzone: Is this true or is it that the South has never recovered completely from its choice in the early 19th century to concentrate on agriculture rather than industry?

Good question, dz. I am very weak in any understanding of economics and am pretty much repeating what I've always been told. I can tell you that the South is very industrial and that agriculture itself has become more industrial. In many cases, the farms are large and the farmers are wealthy. I don't want to generalize too much about this though.

But for some reason, salaries and wages remain lower in the South. Real estate is cheaper than in a lot of areas, but I don't know about the price of other goods and services. A good gage, so I've been told, of how well states are doing economically has always been teachers' salaries. They have traditionally been lower in the South, but I haven't checked in a long time.

[Zoe]

A pickup had a large sticker in the rear window:

WWBD
(a picture of a Confederate flag)
What Would Bubba Do?

Any ideas?

Some rednecks and even non-redneck Southerners like to make fun of the redneck image -- like Jeff Foxworthy. (I don't see the stand-up comics use the battle flag much, though. Not very funny in most eyes.)

When I say "rednecks," I'm using another label that I don't like just because it is a quick image. I think that originally it must have been used to describe farm workers. In that case, I have technically qualified with an offical red neck earned the hard way. I used to pick cotton. (Some of our area schools let out six weeks in the fall for "cotton pickin'".) I hated the work, but it was worth a day's work just to ride on a wagon full of cotton to the gin.

That's why I hate the flag and love the heritage.

About the mural in the post office of the slaves picking cotton: Is it wrong to portray history? I have mixed feelings about this. I don't like destroying art, but maybe it's time for something more contemporary or unifying.

[Nic2004]

If I told you how we cook them — long and slow on low heat with a big slab of fatback for hours until they drape over a fork like clocks painted by Salvador Dali — you'd faint.
<Arms up to the sky, swaying back and forth>
"All we are saaayyyyiinng....is give peas a chance"
Sorry for the back-track, just had to be said.

[UnwrittenNocturne]

Zoe, I appreciate that you might not run into too much racism (as if any was okay, but you get what I mean). I see it almost daily. I here the 'n' word several times a week - and it is spoekn by white people in a derogatory fashion. Mostly by the middle class. Usually by the educated. Often by students at the university.

Your experiences obviously differ.

But racism is alive and well here. And tolerated. :(

[MaxTheVool]

Max, thanks for keeping this on a comfortable level. That is much appreciated.

You're welcome, and you too.

Anyhow, I'm going to take a step back here, because I don't think you're understanding what I'm trying to say. Which is NOT any of:
-Southerners are all racists
-Southern racism is a huge massive problem
-Southern racism taints everything associated with the south
-Southerners are idiots
-Southerners are blind to their problems
-The "right" way to react to racist incidents in the South is to bring up ancient history and use the phrase "Old South" and reopen old wounds (note that I did not start this thread, nor did I initially choose the phrasing therein)
-Anyone who claims that they go thorugh life in the South without seeing much racism is a liar or an idiot


I also will accede that the point I was trying to make is a rather minor one, compared to the actual import of incidents like the one covered in the OP. But it's one that gets into my craw, and hey, what law says that only Very Important Topics can be discussed in the Pit?


Anyhow, here's the point I'm trying to make. I believe that racism, specfically anti-Black racism, is still more of a problem in the South than in any other major region of the country. What I mean by that is, to explain it in a completely impractical fashion, that if you raised 100000 black and 100000 white people, of precisely equal innate ability and talents, in isolation, then inserted them, in family units, into society through the US, then came back 40 years later and measured their overall level of happiness/contentment/success, the white people would, on average, be more successful (and thus, generally, happier) (and no, I don't mean "richer" when I say "more succesful", I mean something more nebulous which I'll expound on if you're curious, although to a certain extent, it's a know-it-when-I-see-it kind of thing) than the black people, because of the racism that exists in society today. And I also claim that disparity would be greatest in the South. (Note that this does NOT claim that no black person can be happy in the south, that every black person will be happy outside the south, that all southern people are racist, etc, etc, etc. It's just a broad statement about averages.) (Note also that I'm willing to revise my opinion if someone does a study which indicates that it's wrong. It would not be an easy study to do, however, although it certainly does not need to be as preposterously contrived as my hypothetical example.)

Anyhow, as I said, I believe the above to be true, and I also believe that it's clearly enough true that it would be hard for any neutral observer to come to any other conclusion.

HOWEVER, I don't think that it's a particularly productive thing to go around waltzing through threads, randomly bringing up this point over and over again. What's that going to accomplish? What, I'm going to hear someone talk about how nice the weather is in Atlanta, and say "ahh, but Atlanta is part of the South. Have I mentioned my claim about the South? Here it is...".

BUT, even though I don't see it as anything other than divisive and insulting to randomly start bringing this (as I see it) unpleasant truth up at random, when I see people espousing the position that there is equal racism across the country, particularly when I believe they are doing so out of bristly pride and defensiveness, THAT is when I speak up, because seeing what I view as clearly false statements espoused for basically political and cheap purposes bugs me.




Phew.




(Would I have been better off never opening my (virtual) mouth in the first place? Probably. But, hey, if everyone subscribed to that philosophy, what fun would the dope be?)

[eleanorigby]

Well, I'm with you until the part about "bringing it up at random". The story that caused this thread to start SHOULD be talked about--it should have been nation-wide front page news, IMO.

How else to educate people on the fact that 1. racism still exists and 2. it should not be acceptable?

All the rest, the "old South" label etc--baggage and opinon (including my own)--but the story and the outrage needed to be told.

[MaxTheVool]

Well, I'm with you until the part about "bringing it up at random". The story that caused this thread to start SHOULD be talked about--it should have been nation-wide front page news, IMO.

How else to educate people on the fact that 1. racism still exists and 2. it should not be acceptable?

All the rest, the "old South" label etc--baggage and opinon (including my own)--but the story and the outrage needed to be told.

Absolutely. When a horrible incident like this occurs, it definitely needs to be discussed. What I think is a not particularly clear question is to what extent it is worth discussing the incident in a vacuum, vs. the incident in the larger society of the south, with its history, etc.

What I was talking about about bringing things up at random would be randomly using "the south is racist" as either an insult or some kind of general-evidence-of-southern-inferiority during an entirely unrelated conversation.

[eleanorigby]

gotcha--I agree.