Einstein Had A Fold In His Brain?

[FreakFreely]

Awhile ago someone claimed to me that Einstein had this fold in his brain, and that's why he was so smart. I asked him where he'd heard that, and he said he read it in some "Popular Geographic Discoveries" magazine. It sounds like bullshit to me, but I thought I'd run it by the teeming millions.

[astro]

IIRC there were some slight anomalies to Einstein's brain re the density of neural connections in a specific brain location but nothing really out of the ordinary range of brain differences.

[Alphagene]

The Master says that the only real difference found so far was that Al's noodle seems to have more glial cells than the average shmo's brain. But overall, very little comparitive research has been done on it.

Is Einstein's brain kept in a bottle in a small-town doctor's office near Kansas City? (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_127.html)

[bibliophage]

Isn't it normal to have a lot of folds in the brain? The surface is covered with convolutions and fissures.

I remember hearing on the radio that the only thing unusual about his brain was an unusually high number of glia cells. Glia cells are believed to have a connective and supportive function, but may also be involved in nutrition.

[bibliophage]

Two sites that mention grooves unusual in Einstein's brain.Einstein's brain had an unusual pattern of grooves (called sulci) on both right and left parietal lobes. This particular area of the parietal lobe is thought to be important for mathematical abilities and spatial reasoning. Einstein's brain had a much shorter lateral sulcus that was partially missing. His brain was also 15% wider than the other brains.source: http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/ein.html

Furthermore, they found that the groove that normally runs from the front of the brain to the back did not extend all the way in Einstein’s case. The researchers hypothesize that the partially missing groove might have allowed more neurons in this area to establish connections between each other and work together more easily.... Einstein’s brain fell in the range of normal for all measurements, except for the portion known as the inferior parietal lobes, located in the middle of the brain. Other experiments have shown the parietal lobes are involved in mathematics, as well as music and processing of visual images. source: http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/science/DailyNews/einstein990617.html

[Earl Snake-Hips Tucker]

It wasn't a "brain cloud," was it?

[Ike Witt]

Actually, his brain is in several jars.

[panamajack]

I hear they've got each neuron in its own jar, and a bunch of scientists monitoring the activity of each cell, who then e-mail the others and tell them when it's their turn to fire.

[Primaflora]

From Uniquely Gifted by Kiesa Kay published by Avocus Publishing 2000.

"recent research by Witelson et al has revelaed that Einstein's brain differed from the brains of others not only in form but also in content. The size of E's brain was comparable to the size of the control brains in the study, but the parietal lobes proved to be 15% wider than the lobes of others.

"Visual spatial cognition, mathematical thought and imagery of movement are strongly dependent on this region. Einstein's exceptional intellect in these cognitive domains and his self described mode of scientific thinking may be related to the atypical anatomy in his inferior parietal lobules. Increased expansion of the inferior parietal region was also noted in other physicists and mathematicians" Witelson the Lancet.

Einstein's brain also had axonal connectivity, an anomaly of the Sylvian fissure, and a larger expanse of a functional cortical network."


IMO if Einstein was born today, he would be in special ed with a whole lot of labels like AS, ADHD and high autism

Primaflora

[RM Mentock]

Originally posted by Primaflora
"recent research by Witelson et al has revelaed that Einstein's brain differed from the brains of others not only in form but also in content.

No shit.

On the other hand, why would you think that Einstein would be diagnosed with high autism? Or is there a difference between autism and high autism?

[Primaflora]

Originally posted by RM Mentock

On the other hand, why would you think that Einstein would be diagnosed with high autism? Or is there a difference between autism and high autism? [/B]

Ookay hope I didn't muck up the quote.

There is a difference between autism and high functioning autism. Autism exists as a spectrum - on one end there are the classic rocking withdrawn kids. On the other end there are the kids who are intelligent, often highly intelligent but who are remote, have sensory issues and who are socially inappropriate. Delayed speech is often an issue too. Mathematicians such as Paul Erdos who had his mother tie his shoelaces all his life would certainly score a label of something if he were coming through school now. _my Brain is Open Now_ a biography of Erdos is a great read BTW.

The end of the spectrum I am talking is not autistic savants like Rainman either. While some autistic kids have isolated extraordinary ability, there are some other kids who are extraordinarily gifted more evenly and who have deficits in social skills and who appear autistic. However not all autistic kids are gifted and not all Aspergers Syndrome kids are gifted either (Aspergers is another form of autism, some people use it instead of high functioning autism)

I was talking to a psychologist on Tuesday who was saying that dyslexia is now considered to be on the autistic spectrum. I don't have a cite for that although I am gonna go look for one because I am starting to wonder what is going to be added to the list of symptoms next.

IMO in previous times society considered these kids to be odd and eccentric. Now they get pathologised and given social skills training and I wonder how much of their eccentric brilliance is being squashed

primaflora

[RM Mentock]

Originally posted by Primaflora
There is a difference between autism and high functioning autism.

OK, but still--why Einstein? Most of the stories about his inabilities as a kid are false.

[Primaflora]

Have you got a cite for the stories being false? The last biography of Einstein I read did say that his reading was delayed and there is no denying that he was a tad eccentric as an adult.

If one looks at other highly gifted people like Norbert Weiner, Edison and geez the name is escaping me, the guy who ended up writing a book about bus tickets, it is pretty easy to see that in today's climate, they could have gotten dx'es of AS or HFA. There is enough around about Einstein which I believe to be true (willing to concede that not all the stories are true if you can give me a cite) which leads me to believe that it is likely that if he were being educated today, and he was sufficiently out of kilter with the school system he would score a dx.

primaflora

[Silo]

I read somewhere that the section of Einstein's brain
that is generally thought to deal with mathamatics is 30% larger than the norm.

[RM Mentock]

Originally posted by Primaflora
There is enough around about Einstein which I believe to be true (willing to concede that not all the stories are true if you can give me a cite) which leads me to believe that it is likely that if he were being educated today, and he was sufficiently out of kilter with the school system he would score a dx.

Hey, you're making me cry here.

Abraham Pais's biography. He didn't talk much before he was 2, but apparently talked well before he was three. Some sources claim he didn't talk at all before he was four. The legend that he didn't do well gradewise is also false--apparently a result of a misinterpretation of the grading system. Pais says he was consistently first in his class. I've seen it claimed that the researcher who first checked his report cards was used to a 1,2,3,4 grading system, and Einstein's schools used a 4,3,2,1 system. I've never seen a school yet, even today, that tried to "dx" the highest performing student, unless it was to decide they were bored and needed a harder challenge.

Wait a minute--aren't you supposed to be relating the stories that you are using to diagnose?

[Primaflora]

Originally posted by RM Mentock

Abraham Pais's biography. He didn't talk much before he was 2, but apparently talked well before he was three. Some sources claim he didn't talk at all before he was four.

I have seen those stories too and I think A Pais' biography is the one I read too. Whacking great doorstop of a thing?
FWIW speech that does not develop normally before the age of two is diagnostically significant. See Attwood's Aspergers' Syndrome



The legend that he didn't do well gradewise is also false--apparently a result of a misinterpretation of the grading system. Pais says he was consistently first in his class. I've seen it claimed that the researcher who first checked his report cards was used to a 1,2,3,4 grading system, and Einstein's schools used a 4,3,2,1 system. I've never seen a school yet, even today, that tried to "dx" the highest performing student, unless it was to decide they were bored and needed a harder challenge.

I have seen students who are in the 99.999% percentile who are such a bad fit in the classroom that they do end up with AS dx'es or ADHD dx'es.



Wait a minute--aren't you supposed to be relating the stories that you are using to diagnose? [/B]

::snort:: well yeah ummm I guess I need to back up my throw away line - OK umm well I guess I either need to go and borrow the doorstop again or fall back on the defense that many, many profoundly gifted kids are now being dx'ed with autistic spectrum disorders and this was not the case 80 to 90 years ago. OK Kanner and Asperger weren't doing their research when Einstein was a kid - shall I just fall down in a weeping heap here and now? I am also trying to make my 7 yo make his bed at the same time, and logical sense is beginning to escape me.............

primaflora who does not believe that the blanket turned into a snake and tried to strangle him......... that's my job

[RM Mentock]

Originally posted by Primaflora
fall back on the defense that many, many profoundly gifted kids are now being dx'ed with autistic spectrum disorders and this was not the case 80 to 90 years ago.

Maybe so. On the surface, that would seem like a bad thing (kinda like my reaction to the Psychology Today ads 25 years ago with a picture of van Gogh that said "we could have cured him"), but I know that there are at least some gifted kids who have been pressed into those diagnoses by their parents. The parents believe that is one way to get access to substantial educational resources for their children.

See, I would have liked to have been able to see a few more van Goghs, too.

[Primaflora]

Originally posted by RM Mentock
Originally posted by Primaflora
fall back on the defense that many, many profoundly gifted kids are now being dx'ed with autistic spectrum disorders and this was not the case 80 to 90 years ago.

Maybe so. On the surface, that would seem like a bad thing (kinda like my reaction to the Psychology Today ads 25 years ago with a picture of van Gogh that said "we could have cured him"), but I know that there are at least some gifted kids who have been pressed into those diagnoses by their parents. The parents believe that is one way to get access to substantial educational resources for their children.

See, I would have liked to have been able to see a few more van Goghs, too.


Ahhh but in many many cases it doesn't get access to educational resources. It gets the kid access to pyschological 'help',social skills training, medication and a label. It is an incredibly tricky minefield where you are doing this dance as a parent/advocate to avoid the psych stuff and also access what the kid needs.

A lot of these kids are lousy at being kids but they are gonna be great adults

primaflora