Is it rude to ask a Lesbian couple "who carried?"

[Mr. Miskatonic]

OK, I was at a family/friends get together this weekend and one childhood friend of my brothers was there with her lifetime partner and their rambunctious daughter.

So I was chatting with said partner as the borhter's childhood friend chased the child around the house trying to prevent damage. I mused over how the child seemed to semble said friend in her youth, especially in light of stories told by her parents and mine.

At some point I asked the question "who carried her"? Very casual, as if I was asking a birthweight or something. The partner answered that my brother's friend had done the carrying, explaining that she herself was too old. The conversation went elsewhere.

Later it occoured to me that I might have asked something that some might consider to be quite rude. Was it?

[Misnomer]

I think it depends on how well you know the couple. In the situation you describe, I think you were fine; and, it doesn't sound like she took any offense.

Speaking generally, though, if you don't know the person you're asking very well, it's pretty rude -- like someone you aren't close to asking when you're going to get married/have a baby. Also, some people don't like sharing such personal information no matter how close you are to them; knowing them well enough to know how they'd react is key.

All just my $0.02, of course. :)

[cwthree]

Later it occoured to me that I might have asked something that some might consider to be quite rude. Was it?

I am neither a lesbian nor have I been pregnant, but it seems a tad intrusive if not rude. Perhaps not as intrusive as asking who the biological father is - the pregnancy, after all, would have been public at some point, in a way that the conception would not. Perhaps it's also a bit presumptious, since the child might have been adopted or carried by a surrogate.

[WhyNot]

But doubleplus good points for not asking "So, who's her REAL mother?" :smack:

I don't think it's very offensive, as long as you don't give the "real mother" vibe. Surely they know people are going to be curious. I think you handled it fine. If it was an adoption or surrogate, the answer to the question would have been "we chose her" or "a surrogate carried her."

I wouldn't presume to ask where the sperm came from unless it was a very close friend. But boy would I be curious!

[kanicbird]

It's kind of new terratory, I'd say you have extra freedom as to what is OK to ask.

[Dangerosa]

People could be offended. Personally, I think it shows acceptance of the situation which is nice.

[Misnomer]

It's kind of new terratory, I'd say you have extra freedom as to what is OK to ask. It is never ok to err on the side of rudeness. Besides, how are personal questions "new territory"?

[leenmi]

But doubleplus good points for not asking "So, who's her REAL mother?" :smack:

I don't think it's very offensive, as long as you don't give the "real mother" vibe.

I second that. The first thing that popped in my head was not rude unless you were probing for the "real" mother.

[Fionn]

It is never ok to err on the side of rudeness. Besides, how are personal questions "new territory"?

I assumed "new territory" referred to lesbian couples having children.

People can be offended about just about anything. Rudeness depends on context, and in this case I don't think there was anything rude about asking.

[Mr. Miskatonic]

I second that. The first thing that popped in my head was not rude unless you were probing for the "real" mother.

I was more interested in who had to experience the 'joy' of giving birth, although part of me was wondering if the hyperactiveness of the daughter was becuase of genetic.

[fubbleskag]

anyone genuinely offended by this question should have their head examined

[Sunspace]

It's probably not the kind of question that would cause Miss Manners to come out swearing like a Cornish sailor, but it's definitely in 'personal' territory, and I wouldn't ask that specific question unless I knew the couple very well, and knew that they wouldn't be offended.

OTOH, I'm trying to figure out another way to ask about the genetic parentage... "who were the bio-dad and bio-mom", essentially. I seem to vaguely remember that it is now possible to create viable embryos without a bio-dad, by combining the information from two moms, but I may have that garbled. And of course thereès the possibility of cloning, so that there would be only one 'parent' (a much older identical twin, really).

[Sampiro]

Gay male who's been asked to father babies for lesbians (but so far declined) checking in, and personally I don't really see it as rude at all. It's not a stupid question and it's highly doubtful that each carried half and then sewed it together.

This isn't to say it might not offend some people, but then it's impossible to construct a sentence in the English language that somebody doesn't find offensive. I wouldn't hold it against you in the least so long as you acknowledge (which you did) that both are the parents of the child.

[Axel]

I think that's a good way of phrasing the question. I can see some non-bio Mums not wanting any hint that they're not the 'real' Mum, and not wanting any reminder of who's biologically-related and who's not. But 'who carried her' is a pretty neutral phrasing - it doesn't speak to the biology directly, just whose womb it was.

This lesbian Mum has often dealt with people asking how I got my daughter, and I can understand people's curiosity, so I answer.

[Misnomer]

I assumed "new territory" referred to lesbian couples having children.Yes, I knew exactly what kanicbird was referring to.

anyone genuinely offended by this question should have their head examinedThat's what's been missing in this thread: someone to oversimplify the issue! Thanks so much!

[Dewey Finn]

It seems like it wouldn't be any of your business which of them (if either) carried the child. So I vote for yes, it's rude.

[Sunspace]

Another thought... what with in-vitro fertilisation and all, whoever carried the child might not be the bio-mom anyways. So if the OP was seeking to find out who the bio-parents were, ey wasn't asking the precisely-right question anyways.

[Sampiro]

The only questions that majorly offend me from those I don't know well are questions that are too explicitly sexual in nature (and above all the are you the man or the woman? bit of evasive dumbassery). I just don't really see this as terribly invasive.

[Walloon]

When a woman is pregnant for nine months, even strangers on the street can see who's carrying. It's not a shameful, secret condition. At least I hope we're beyond that idea.

[Misnomer]

I just don't really see this as terribly invasive.That's the thing, though: you wouldn't find this question to be invasive. And people who know you, know that it would be ok to ask (if you were to find yourself a mom in a lesbian relationship). But someone else might find it invasive, therefore it's only a rude question if you don't know the person you're asking well enough to know whether they'd think it's rude to ask.

Simple! :D

When a woman is pregnant for nine months, even strangers on the street can see who's carrying. It's not a shameful, secret condition. At least I hope we're beyond that idea.I don't think the question of rudeness had anything to do with pregnancy being shameful or secret. Rather, it has to do with the fact that after the child is born -- when no one is walking around visibly pregnant anymore -- that kind of information is considered personal. It's a personal question. Some might be offended, others not, but the hope is that you wouldn't ask unless you knew it was ok to.

(Crap, why couldn't I have used that clearer wording in my response to Sampiro?! ;))

[Dewey Finn]

Regarding that, I was told never to ask, "When's the baby due?" even to a woman who appears to be at nine months, since it might turn out that she's not and both of you will be embarrased horribly. Instead, it's only appropriate to ask her when the baby is coming if you're in the delivery room with her at the time of the actual delivery.

[Fionn]

It seems like it wouldn't be any of your business which of them (if either) carried the child. So I vote for yes, it's rude.

At what point is it acceptable to ask well-intentioned questions about someone you've known for years, from someone you've been having an apparently pleasant conversation with?

[Dewey Finn]

Maybe I'm overly sensitive, but I wouldn't ask this question. If these truly are old and dear friends, it may come up in context. Perhaps you might ask one of the couple, "Did the pregnancy affect your training regimen for the Boston Marathon?" to which the reply might be, "No, I didn't carry the baby. My partner did."

[Walloon]

No, she would never catch on that you were trying to determine which of them carried the child.

[Dewey Finn]

The example was meant to be of a circumstance where I had a legitimate purpose in asking a related question. In general, though, it's none of my business and I have no reason to know the answer.

[Fionn]

The kid running around in front of them and reminding the OP of old family stories isn't sufficient context, but something like running a marathon would be?

[Nava]

Regarding that, I was told never to ask, "When's the baby due?" even to a woman who appears to be at nine months, since it might turn out that she's not and both of you will be embarrased horribly. Instead, it's only appropriate to ask her when the baby is coming if you're in the delivery room with her at the time of the actual delivery.


Re this, it may be a cultural difference, but in Spain it's considered a perfectly polite question. Quite a common "opening question", too, since it leads to all those considerations about "oh, nice, you won't be pregnant during the summer, carrying the nappies is a pain but less so than the baby inside" and so forth. My sis in law is currently pregnant and in the last 5 months she's added to her cellphone at least a dozen numbers of other pregnant women she's met in all kinds of places. One of them guessed her as pregnant when she was only at 6 weeks and had barely confirmed it; and yes, usually you do not go up to a stranger and say "you know, maybe I'm crazy, but I could swear you're pregnant, am I right?"

Re the OP, Mr. Miskatonic already explained in Post #10 that he was just curious, specially about who'd gone through the "joy" of delivery. And since it's a lesbian couple, it could happen that one gave the egg and the other gave birth, you know :D this kind of thing is leading to a whole new body of law.

[MaxTheVool]

It seems like it wouldn't be any of your business which of them (if either) carried the child. So I vote for yes, it's rude.

I don't think it's quite that simple. NOTHING is "other people's business", but some things are considered generally open for public discussion, and others aren't. For instance, "how many other children do you have?" is generally considered a perfectly fine question to ask, but "what sexual position were you using when your daughter was conceived" isn't. But there's no innate reason why one of those two questions is none of your business, and the other isn't.


So far the only actual lesbian mothers in this thread have indicated that they wouldn't be offended, as long as they didn't get any unpleasant or bigoted vibes from the way the question was phrased.

[matt_mcl]

I'd reiterate that it would be very important not to somehow imply that one was the 'real' mom and the other wasn't. It can be very tough for the non-gestational-mom to figure out how she fits in, I'm told, and it might be a sore spot with that couple.

[Axel]

And since it's a lesbian couple, it could happen that one gave the egg and the other gave birth, you know :D this kind of thing is leading to a whole new body of law.

Unfortunately this is still extremely difficult, has more risks attached and has lower succesful birth rates. I have read about it in fiction, but among the ... 100+? lesbian parents I know, a few have looked into this method but it's not possible except where a) 1 mother can't produce viable eggs and b) the other mother can't carry her own eggs to term. Shame.

The sooner we get to routine egg-egg fertilisation the better. Though I was surprised, when this subject was brought up elsewhere, how many lesbians, and even lesbian parents, were against it.

That would be a good thread for GD, wouldn't it? Anyone know if it's been done before? I can't search.

[kanicbird]

It is never ok to err on the side of rudeness. Besides, how are personal questions "new territory"?

Never? Sometimes a little rudeness has actually saved lives. Anyway my point is that the question has not been defined as rude (or not rude), you seem to want to define it as rude, which is your choice, but I don't beleive it is universally accepted as such.

It is pretty obviouse in a hetro couple who carried, but I wonder if you also consider it rude to ask if it was a marriage where their are multiple wifes.

[Misnomer]

Never? Sometimes a little rudeness has actually saved lives.That doesn't mean it was less rude, just that it was understandable under the circumstances. And unless the lives were saved accidentally, no one flipped a coin and decided to be rude: generally, that kind of rudeness is deliberate.

Anyway my point is that the question has not been defined as rude (or not rude), you seem to want to define it as rude, which is your choice, but I don't beleive it is universally accepted as such.For starters, I don't appreciate having words put in my mouth . . . it might even be considered rude (heh). Furthermore, I never said that the question itself was rude; in fact, if you go back to my very first response in this thread, you will see that I said, "In the situation you describe, I think you were fine." What can make it rude are the circumstances and the people involved: asking that question of someone you don't know very well is quite different from asking that question of a friend.

As to "universal acceptance," I am not Miss Manners; I do not claim that the etiquette buck stops here. I am arguing my opinion, as I understand people are wont to do here in IMHO. I can "want" to define whatever I please as rude: as long as someone disagrees with me, I will disagree right back -- especially if the person I disagree with treats personal questions as somehow less personal just because lesbians are involved.

It is pretty obviouse in a hetro couple who carried, but I wonder if you also consider it rude to ask if it was a marriage where their are multiple wifes.It is not "obvious in a hetro [sic] couple who carried." Have you never heard of adoption? Or surrogate motherhood? Do you think it's appropriate to ask a stranger whether her child is hers biologically?

I'm not quite sure what point you think you're making with the second part of that sentence, but once again you are missing my point: no question in and of itself is rude, there are only situations in which it could be asked where it would be rude. Why is the distinction lost on you?

[Obsidian]

Two of my nearest & dearest friends are a lesbian couple. One night while having drinks, with a couple of girls, we asked them who would carry the baby, should they have one (the conversation was on a baby-related subject). This turned into a fairly detailed discussion about labor, delivery, genetics, age, and fertility. I remember telling them that I was really envious of them-- hetero couples do not get two wombs, two sets of eggs, etc. It never occured to me the topic might be rude. We were just girls talking about girl things.

(I asked one of them if the question was rude, and the response was "God, no.")

[Miller]

It never occured to me the topic might be rude.

...

(I asked one of them if the question was rude, and the response was "God, no.")

:dubious:
:D

[La Llorona]

I seem to vaguely remember that it is now possible to create viable embryos without a bio-dad, by combining the information from two moms, but I may have that garbled.

Cecil (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_059.html)!

I have a very few friends with whom I can blithely trade embarrassingly personal information. In such a situation with those particular people, I wouldn't consider a question like that at all out of line...but then again, if you're really all that close with someone, presumably you'd already know who carried the child, wouldn't you? ;)

I wouldn't consider that question rude so much as just really, really personal except between the best of friends. I can think of a few circumstances in which one could probe for the answer to this question in a semi-natural manner--for example, if you're a woman with a child, you could segue from a conversation topic--food? the weather?--into pregnancy woes, and see if either pipes up.

But is it really all that important for you to go to all that effort to probe into people's personal lives?

And Nava, commenting on the pregnancy of strange women is generally advised against in the United States. To paraphrase Erma Bombeck (vastly!), everyone knows someone who's inquired innocently, "When's the baby due?" and received the answer, "Last January." :smack:

[Liz]

Later it occoured to me that I might have asked something that some might consider to be quite rude. Was it?
This lesbian says nope, not in the least.

[Obsidian]

:dubious:
:D

No, I mean I just asked her, in what is now catagorized as the single most utterly random phone call I've ever made.

[kanicbird]

For starters, I don't appreciate having words put in my mouth . . .

Well bully for you, but this has nothing to do with the OP or related to anything I said. I support you not appreciating having words put into your mouth, but this is irrelevant to this thread, may I suggest opening one in MPSIMS.

especially if the person I disagree with treats personal questions as somehow less personal just because lesbians are involved.

I do sense you look and 'find' discrimination even when it doesn't exist.

It is not "obvious in a hetro [sic] couple who carried." Have you never heard of adoption? Or surrogate motherhood? Do you think it's appropriate to ask a stranger whether her child is hers biologically?

You are also radically changing the situation, in general it would be (IMHO) considered rude to ask any stranger about the bio-status of the nearby child, this is not what we are talking about here. Adoption is still a very minor percentage and one would not have a real reason to assume that the child is not a bio-child unless there is a obvious physical difference (i.e the child is obviously of the white race, while the parents are both Martians, who we all know are greenish and have anteni).

I'm not quite sure what point you think you're making with the second part of that sentence,

The point that a precedent must exist for the situation where the biostatus of a child can not be assumed to a reasonable degree of certainty.

but once again you are missing my point: no question in and of itself is rude, there are only situations in which it could be asked where it would be rude. Why is the distinction lost on you?

I disagree with your basic premise:
It is never ok to err on the side of rudeness.

And even if I accepted it, when a action is undefined in terms of rudeness (like in this case) using your premise gives no indication as what to do.

[Misnomer]

You know what, kanicbird? I give up. I bow in the face of your persistent resistance to logic and common sense, and your ability to create strawmen out of thin air.

Have a lovely evening. :)

[Sampiro]

So is anybody else hearing klezmer themed showtunes in their head?

Is this the lesbian who carried?
Or is it her partner who's... less gay?
I wouldn't be comfortable in asking
but would they?