Is it annoying to have hair salon employees speaking to each other in Spanish?

[astro]

Per the article if your hairdresser was having a conversation in Spanish with another employee while working on your hair, would it make you vaguely uncomfortable if you didn't speak Spanish? I'm not interested as much in the EEOC aspects of the case addressed in the article. I'm imore interested in how you would feel. Would it influence your decision about going there again?

Supercuts sued for ban on Spanish (http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-supercuts12.html)

[Hello Again]

My old hairdresser chattered in Russian with her comrades (they were nearly all Russian at that salon). I enjoy the sound of it, and I'm not very chatty with my stylist myself so I don't mind listening. I wouldn't feel any differently about Spanish.

[Marley23]

I get a little annoyed by things like that. I can't really speak about hair salons, since nobody else has cut my hair in 3 1/2 years, but it bothers me. It's nobody else's fault, I just like to know what's going on around me and I don't if I'm unable to understand the language.

[Loopydude]

At one time I was told by an old-timer that it's rude to converse in a language unintelligible to unaddressed parties who happen to be within earshot. The justification for this addition to the code of etiquette was that those uncomprehending eavesdroppers might fear they were being discussed, in their very presence but as if they weren't even there, which would make the poor monoglot feel awkward.

This seems perfectly understandable. I'd much rather, for instance, that swarthy foreigners discussing whether or not the wish to kill me and steal all my money have the goddamn common courtesy to wait until I've left the room before plotting my demise. The nerve of some people.

[Draelin]

Most nail salons in this area are run by Koreans or Vietnamese, and they very often speak to each other in their native languages. I occasionally have a vague suspicion that they're talking about me (you know, like when they gesture to me and laugh), but I figure that as long as my nails are getting done well, they can say whatever they want.

Of course, if they were saying it in English, we'd have a problem.

[Gala Matrix Fire]

I used to think that people talking to each other in a foreign language right in front of me were most likely talking about me, and even making unkind remarks about me. Then I learned Spanish and found out that nobody ever talks about me in these situations. They're talking about what to pick up at the grocery store after work, what funny thing their kid said this morning, etc.

[TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW]

Any time I hear people chittering in another non-English language, it just pisses me off.

[Loopydude]

I occasionally have a vague suspicion that they're talking about me (you know, like when they gesture to me and laugh)...

Of course, if they were saying it in English, we'd have a problem.

::This one have vely small figers!::
::Ahh, my mother say it mean he have vely small plick!::
::HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!::

[Cyros]

My hairdresser carries on conversations with fellow employees in French. I don't mind. In fact, it's unusual for me to go anywhere and get any service without the employees talking in French, bilingual province and all. If I pay attention, I may get a few key points, but usually, I just think about my own stuff and enjoy not having any forced conversation.

[Bambi Hassenpfeffer]

I used to think that people talking to each other in a foreign language right in front of me were most likely talking about me, and even making unkind remarks about me. Then I learned Spanish and found out that nobody ever talks about me in these situations. They're talking about what to pick up at the grocery store after work, what funny thing their kid said this morning, etc.
Exactly what s/he said.

[Brynda]

I assume it is idle chit-chat, not about me, and all that...but I still don't like it. It makes me uncomfortable, and like Marley23, I like to know what is going on. Plus, I like to chat with strangers (you never know who you will meet or what they will say) and when they are talking with each other, I can't chat with them.

[Draelin]

::This one have vely small figers!::
::Ahh, my mother say it mean he have vely small plick!::
::HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!::
I imagine that's more or less what they would be saying if I were male, but yes, you get my drift. :)

[jimpatro]

Even if they are speaking English, what anyone else says in a conversation that doesn't include you is none of your business.

[jasonh300]

There was a Seinfeld episode about this.

[amarinth]

I don't see why I'd particularly care.
I assume that the conversation has nothing to do with me - and if I'm going to be out of the conversation anyway (as it has nothing to do with me), what does it matter if it's in English or Spanish?

[Paul in Qatar]

Nope. I live around non-English speakers. I speak English in front of them, they speak Bengali in front of me. It sort of works out.

For an amusing time, break out a Spanish newspaper and begin to read it. Hilarity may ensue.

[cruel butterfly]

Most nail salons in this area are run by Koreans or Vietnamese, and they very often speak to each other in their native languages. I occasionally have a vague suspicion that they're talking about me (you know, like when they gesture to me and laugh), but I figure that as long as my nails are getting done well, they can say whatever they want.

Of course, if they were saying it in English, we'd have a problem.

This is why I never get too nit-picky with whoever is doing my nails. I'm afraid that if there were subtitles floating around in front of the other techs, they would be saying things like:

"Can you believe this snotty bitch wants her nails more squared?"

[tremorviolet]

It's pretty much rude for the hairdresser to have a conversation with someone else in any language while they cut your hair. You're paying them to cut your hair, not converse with others. I don't mind the occasional comment to others in any language the stylist wants but carrying on an entire conversation is not acceptable. At my nail salon, the nail techs (all Vietnamese) generally talk to the customers in English but well convey information to each other in Vietnamese and I don't have any problem with it.

But there is the "you get what you pay for" factor: you're gonna get much less attentive service in a SuperCuts than you would in a nicer salon.

[Chanteuse]

Yeah, I'd be annoyed. I'm not a slab of meat sitting in that chair, I'm a customer. Don't talk over my head in a language I can't understand. I'd feel the same if they carried on a conversation in whispers or murmurs. You want a private conversation, go to a private place.

Where I grew up, it was fairly common for Spanish speaking people to gather around non-Spanish speakers and carry on a conversation that we couldn't comprehend. Waiting rooms seemed to be the most common place for this to happen. Once, my mom and sister were in a waiting room--they'd been there before and knew the people, and that their English was fine. BUT, they kept turning the conversation to Spanish (with enough glances toward the gringas to make them feel deliberately excluded). So Mom and Sis began communicating in sign language. This annoyed the hell out of the others. Mom was asked, "Is your daughter deaf?" "No." "Then why are you using sign language?" Mom asked him," Why do you speak Spanish when you speak English so well?" He replied that he had Mexican friends--"Well, we have deaf friends." (This was the truth.) But they clearly didn't like being beaten at their own game.

I'm not saying that Spanish or French or Esperanto should NEVER be spoken ANYWHERE but in the home. But when you're dealing with the public, you shouldn't have conversations that make others feel shut out. If I go to Mexico, I need to learn at least the basics of the language before I take a job that means I'll be working mostly with people who only know Spanish. And if I constantly chattered in English to a coworker (thereby, in essence, ignoring my customer), they'd have every right to be annoyed, too.

[Kyla]

It's pretty much rude for the hairdresser to have a conversation with someone else in any language while they cut your hair.

Agreed. I would be totally pissed off if my hairdresser started chatting with his coworkers while working on my hair.

That said, I think Supercuts is in the wrong. Apparently the supervisor told the hairdressers in question to speak English even while on break. That's fucked up. When I'm on break, I'll speak whatever language I want.

[Rushgeekgirl]

Nope, wouldn't bother me a bit. Of course I'd understand most of what they were saying if it was Spanish, but I don't think I'd care anyway. I'm usually in my own little world when I'm getting my hair cut; if someone is going to talk about me I'd really just as soon not know what is being said.

[Ashes, Ashes]

It's bothered me for years and I finally figured out why. Not only is it rude to talk over someone, but the people doing it know it bothers others and do it anyway. It's very selfish and inconsiderate to dismiss or exclude someone in such a manner. It's not really wrong to speak in a foreign language around those who don't understand, but it's not very nice, either.

Sometimes they are speaking about you. I am the whitest looking woman on the planet, so no one ever suspects I speak fluent spanish. Walking around stores I hear workers and customers talking about me at least once during my visit. Mostly people make comments about my appearance or wonder why a white woman is shopping in the store.

My favorite kind of gotcha is with my students. I start every year telling them I speak spanish and they never believe me. It doesn't take long for someone to talk about me or say something innappropriate and then I get to pull out my spanish. Jaws drop, the kid looks mortified, and the whole class has a good laugh.

And I'll mention this-- when you're trying to learn the language, you're more likely to be successful if you practice as much as possible. Because they never practice, too many of my students never learn enough english to be employable anywhere outside the city limits.

[Bambi Hassenpfeffer]

I meant to add that I have some experiences like Ashes mentions, but usually only when going into a "Spanish" store. There's a couple of Latino groceries and music stores around here and going into them can be somewhat uncomfortable because I just feel like I stick out. And I'm not fluent, but I know enough to ask for what I want and understand the answer, and enough to know when I am being discussed behind my back.

However, in places like the mall, and in the stores I have worked (and still do work) in, I can't remember being talked about* (except by idiot teens, but they're all unlivable jerks anyway), and like bluethree says, it's usually just idle conversation.

Now as to the rudeness thing, I'll expand on what I said earlier. I wouldn't find it rude in a place like SuperCuts or the barber shop I go to -- the SuperCuts cause it's not a high-end salon and the barber shop because it's a barber shop, where casual conversation with everyone is the norm. If someone were chatting with a coworker in a $80 / cut place, then I'd be irritated.

*The exception to this is when I am having to turn away a bilingual customer for some kind of issue at the service desk. When I have to deliver "bad news" (in English) to a customer (No, Señora, you may not return this product we don't carry that you brought in without a receipt in a bag from our competitor), she will sometimes turn to her companion(s) and say something nasty about me or my store (en español) and start to turn away. My response is usually something like "Lo siento mucho, Señora, pero no hay nada que pueda hacer pa' usted." Then she'll usually get this look on her face, wondering if I understood her insults, and then I'll say "¡Que tenga(n) buen día!" with the most ingratiating smile I can muster. This usually'll cow her enough that she'll just say "Igual" and scurry off.

They never expect me to understand any Spanish, cause I am a white boy in an area where the Spanish speakers are mostly Caribbean and Central American.

[Czarcasm]

::This one have vely small figers!::
::Ahh, my mother say it mean he have vely small plick!::
::HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!::
I'm going to treat this as an aberration, because I don't recall you showing such bad taste before.

[Sarah Woodruff]

Agreed. I would be totally pissed off if my hairdresser started chatting with his coworkers while working on my hair.
Same here. I'd find it equally annoying if it was in English, Welsh, Ukranian, Congolese.... if I'm paying you $60.00 for an half-hour-long cut, please concentrate on what you're cutting for half an hour!

[TellMeI'mNotCrazy]

I don't mind, really, even if I sometimes do get paranoid that I'm the topic of conversation. However, I think I might have been conditioned to not mind. My mother is Thai, and whenever she and her friends would get together, there would be tons of conversations that went like this:

<unintelligible banter, blather, blah>Julie<uproarious laughter>.

[Giant_Spongess]

So long as they understand enough English to understand what I want, and do it right, I don't care what my hairdressers say, or in what language.

Then again, people talk about me all the time in English anyway, so I'm pretty much used to it.

[matt_mcl]

1) I agree with tremorviolet: the hairstylist should be dealing with you while cutting your hair, not with others.

2) In general, if someone's not talking to you, and they don't have any reason to be, it is not your concern what language they're speaking in. You shouldn't even be listening.

[xxantologiaxx]

Yeah, I'd be annoyed. I'm not a slab of meat sitting in that chair, I'm a customer. Don't talk over my head in a language I can't understand. I'd feel the same if they carried on a conversation in whispers or murmurs. You want a private conversation, go to a private place.


Totally agree with this first part. When someone is working on me, nails, hair, etc. i expect their full attention. But when I'm in a public place with my mother or hanging out with my sister (who both speak perfect English) and I feel the need to say something in Spanish I don't think it should be anyones business what i'm saying except the person i'm conversing with. I find it a little full of yourself (and I don't mean you, Chanteuse, i mean anyone) to think that just because another language is being used infront of you it's sole purpose is to disguise the conversation...Sometimes there are expressions and things you can't translate. Not just to translate to English but to Spanish as well. I have a very good friend that speaks Spanish very well but feels a lot more comfortable speaking English so, when we go out for coffee we speak English, in Mexico (I live in a town right on the border). We get dirty looks sometimes, but the way I see it, if i'm not talking to you then what i'm saying in your presence should be none of your concern. Chances are it doesn't involve you, anyway. :)

[MizGrand]

I'm of the camp that believes that if you're being waited on by a service provider, paid in US dollars AND you're in a city like mine in which the white popluation has become a minority that it's only polite to not carry on entire conversations in another language. Any other language. C'mon now, I KNOW that they're talking about my Og-awful toenails!

But again, I usually think that everybody is talking about me. Call it ummm, paranoia? I actually got a prescription for this sort of thinking! :o

[Chanteuse]

Totally agree with this first part. When someone is working on me, nails, hair, etc. i expect their full attention. But when I'm in a public place with my mother or hanging out with my sister (who both speak perfect English) and I feel the need to say something in Spanish I don't think it should be anyones business what i'm saying except the person i'm conversing with. I find it a little full of yourself (and I don't mean you, Chanteuse, i mean anyone) to think that just because another language is being used infront of you it's sole purpose is to disguise the conversation...Sometimes there are expressions and things you can't translate. Not just to translate to English but to Spanish as well. I have a very good friend that speaks Spanish very well but feels a lot more comfortable speaking English so, when we go out for coffee we speak English, in Mexico (I live in a town right on the border). We get dirty looks sometimes, but the way I see it, if i'm not talking to you then what i'm saying in your presence should be none of your concern. Chances are it doesn't involve you, anyway. :)

Just to clarify, xxantologiaxx, I didn't mean that people shouldn't speak any other language out in public places. In restaurants, grocery stores, etc, I've heard lots of this. What I mean is, don't do this where there are lots of people in a common area (such as a doctor's waiting room) and loudly speak (and in some cases, across the room) in a foreign language. It just seems rude--whether you're in the USA, or Mexico, or Russia, or France--to carry on long and loud conversations in public this way. It feels the same as when people whisper to each other in front of you. And remember, I said it was fairly common for me to see this done deliberately to make others feel uncomfortable--so maybe I'm a tad sensitive to it. :)

[Hyperelastic]

It would bug the shit out of me. (This is a hypothetical, because I get my haircuts strictly from Mr. Wahl.)

I have an acquaintance who speaks perfectly fluent English all day long, but whose native language is Vietnamese. She likes to slip into Vietnamese every so often when she talks to her husband in my presence (he is also fluent in English but understands Vietnamese.) I'm a gentleman, or else I'd have told her to get stuffed years ago.

[Zebra]

It doesn't bother me. Here in NYC you get this all the time and not just Spanish. I can understand enough Spanish to know what they are talking about and it is always just chit chat. As long as they are paying enough attention to what they are doing I don't mind. I also find that they love to tell you about where they are from, how to say some words in their language and are usually eager to ask questions about American/English idioms.

I once spent about 15 mins trying to explain "OK" to an Italian woman. The fact that the 'way' it is said affects the meaning so much was confusing to her.

[sciurophobic]

It is rude to expect to understand conversations that are none of your business.

It is rude to talk about someone in earshot, and arguably even ruder to do it in a language you think they don't understand.

If you work in the customer service industry it is rude to engage in any conversation in any language that makes it difficult for you to provide the customer with the level of attention needed to provide the same quality of service you would give if you were not conversing. If you can talk and do your job at the same time no problem. If not shut up and get back to work.

[DrDeth]

Yes, it is rude. But it is also rude to complain about it.

OTOH, if they "chattered" in English, they'd learn English far faster than if they keep lasping into their native tongue.

[davenportavenger]

I'd just be glad I didn't have to make uncomfortable small-talk with the stylist for twenty minutes. There is nothing quite so annoying as a chatty stylist.

[LavenderBlue]

It's very rude behavior.

It's one thing to have a private foreign language conversation on your own time but you shouldn't do that while cutting someone's hair.

Reminds me of all the times my mother and deceased grandmother would chatter away in Yiddish while my non-Yiddish speaking father would sit there and periodically glare at them.

[Garfield226]

I shared a room with a Chinese student my freshman year of college. He often (on the order of 3-5 days a week) had another Chinese student who also lived on the hall (and who lived with yet a third Chinese student) come over and visit him for eight or ten hours at a time with perhaps a half hour or hour break for dinner. They would speak Chinese the entire time, with the possible (and very infrequent) exception of asking me something (usually where a particular building on campus was or something like that).

On the one hand, I recognize that it's a different situation because that was his home and if there's anywhere he ought to feel comfortable speaking his native language it ought to be there. On the other hand, I often wished he would either make an attempt to include me in the conversation or go over to the other guy's room.

[MadderMitch]

No.

[davenportavenger]

Question: What do the people who complain about non-English speakers do when they encounter a non-lipreading deaf person? Do you take pains to write out all your conversations? After all, isn't it very rude to converse in a language someone else can't understand? Would you be annoyed if two deaf people signed to one another while you were in the room, and expect them to write out their conversations too?

(Yes, I know the situations aren't totally analogous since many non-English speakers can speak English but don't want to, whereas many deaf people just can't. But still, I'm curious.)

[MadderMitch]

Would you be annoyed if two deaf people signed to one another while you were in the room, and expect them to write out their conversations too?


Nope

[pace]

I consider it rude, especially if the person speaks English as well and you're right there with them, but rude is rude--to really PISS me off, they'd have to be sitting with me at a dinner table conversing in my presence in their alternative language, thereby intentionally excluding me.

[clairobscur]

I consider it rude, especially if the person speaks English as well and you're right there with them, but rude is rude--to really PISS me off, they'd have to be sitting with me at a dinner table conversing in my presence in their alternative language, thereby intentionally excluding me.



This wouldn't piss me off. When you're hanging out with people (at least when there's more than 4-5 people) , you usually not talk to everybody else at the same time, but there are a number of different exchanges going on, each involving only part of the people present.

If some of them aren't native speakers, and are talking to each other, it's obvious that it will be much easier for them to express themselves in their own language. These people too are there to relax and have a good time, not to be uncomfortable and spend their energy speaking in a (for them) foreign language when it's not necessary (especially since except for completely bilingual people, you can convey exactly what you mean, or tell jokes, or whatever only in your own language).

So, since I hope that everybody will have a good time, I find perfectly normal that from time to time they're going to use their own language. Anyway, in most of these cases, I wouldn't pay attention to what they're saying if they were speaking french, because I would be involved in some other conversation.

I have some recent examples of that, and I wasn't pissed of. What's the most convenient for everybody wins. Actually, I find rather pleasant to hear people speaking in different languages.



Finally, in many cases, even though people happen to share the same space (for instance a group of tourists including some foreigners share a meal, but they aren't friends or somesuch), not only they don't have any obligation to speak a language understood by everybody, but anyway, what they're saying is nobody else's business. And expecting them to speak a language you can understand is IMO being rude (and not the other way around).


Actually, generally speaking, such demands are IMO rude, because they put a burden on someone else and make these people uncomfortable for no gain (apart from putting your paranoia to rest). In social occasions, everybody should feel as comfortable as possible, and "I can't understand what they say" isn't being placed in an uncomfortable position. Except of course if you're completely ignored..... So, yes, the non-local language speakers should make some efforts to involve other people, but whatever social gathering that is taking place shouldn't be a pain for them, either and they should feel free to speak their own language when it's sensible to do so.


I actually mentionned to some people who were translating to me what they were saying betwen themselves not to bother, precisely for this reason.




Finally, for people who find rude the behavior described in the OP. What about the employees speaking in english together while their customer is a spanish speaker who doesn't unerstand english (say, a tourist). Would this be rude to (since in this case also they're conducting an exchange in a language the customer doesn't understand in front of him). If not, why not?


Also, what if everyboy speak english, but some speak it quite poorly, and don't understand much of what is said, can't really take part in the conversation, etc... would you still find it rude if they were using from time to time their own language (so that they wouldn't be bored to death, for instance)?

[Caricci]

I agree with the person who said that hairstylists shouldn't be conversing with the other employees at all, unless it's business related - like "where are the thinning shears?" or something. Pay attention to my hair!

I have had the experience of feeling talked about in Korean nail salons and I don't think it's paranoia. But, hey, if I want a $6 manicure, that comes with the territory. Now I pay $20 and the local girl that went to high school with my sister chats with me in English.

[even sven]

Doesn't bug me at all. In fact, it makes me kind of proud that we live in such a diverse nation and that people still come here to chase their dreams just like my ancestors.

[MaddyStrut]

I usually don't think they're talking about me (I'm really not all that interesting a subject of conversation), but I do feel excluded. When I'm getting my hair cut or my nails done, I don't like to feel excluded.

[Grits and Hard Toast]

It's pretty much rude for the hairdresser to have a conversation with someone else in any language while they cut your hair. You're paying them to cut your hair, not converse with others. I don't mind the occasional comment to others in any language the stylist wants but carrying on an entire conversation is not acceptable. At my nail salon, the nail techs (all Vietnamese) generally talk to the customers in English but well convey information to each other in Vietnamese and I don't have any problem with it.

But there is the "you get what you pay for" factor: you're gonna get much less attentive service in a SuperCuts than you would in a nicer salon.

I used to manage a Supercuts type salon. Our goal was to provide the same level of service you expect at high-end salons, but provide it at a lower cost.

Our rule was that the stylists were not to engage in lengthy conversations with anyone other than their customers unless their customers were involved in it. I taught the stylists to pick-up on the clues as to who doesn't want idle chit chat while having their hair done, and who expects that as part of the service. And the stylists were expected to adjust to each person. So the Supercuts situation of banning Spanish speaking to another stylist while working on a customer who didn't speak spanish would have been banned in our shop also.

I would have to think that Supercuts knows that banning conversations in Spanish when not working on customers would get them in trouble. Unless things have changed, their managers are fully aware of labor laws and what could end in a lawsuit. I think this case may put the burden on the stylists to show that "dirty looks" equal an outright ban. You won't find an outright ban on stylists speaking their own language in the break room in Supercuts policies.

When I was a manager, I knew the importance of all the stylists getting along. If some stylists made a habit of speaking spanish in the break-room, in front of other employees, and those employees complained because they felt excluded or that they were being talked about, I would suggest the spanish speakers be aware of the potential friction this could cause, and hope they made an effort not to leave the other stylists out. But I wouldn't go any farther with it, knowing the legal problems that could arise.

[Johnny L.A.]

One of my former co-workers was chatting with another guy in Spanish in the break room. (Former co-worker looks Mexican and speaks English with a Spanish accent, but he was born in Texas.) A (White guy) temp came into the break room and apparently ranted a bit about how they should be speaking English, since they're in America and all. (Earlier, in the car park, this guy cornered me and implied that his Chevy Monte Carlo was a 'better car' than my 911. Maybe it was, for some purposes -- comfort, soft ride, etc.; but given the parameters I enjoy I think he was wrong. He just oozed this 'U.S.A.! U.S.A.! U.S.A.!' vibe.) My co-worker reported the temp to management, and the temp was quickly gone.

Is it annoying to me when people speak a language I don't understand? Not really. As long as they're not pointing and laughing at me, I don't care. I just want my hair cut, my bun thit nuong, burrito, basturma, or whatever, my car washed, etc.

[LissyLou]

I think the circumstance is important.

Two strangers sitting beside you on a bus, ignoring you, speaking another language-Not Rude.

Two strangers sitting beside you on a bus, both glancing at you while speaking another language-Very Rude. I don't care if they're wondering what you use on your hair and where they can get some-making conversation about someone in their presence while excluding them from the conversation is rude.

I think it's more of a privacy issue than a language issue. It's rude to subject people who are stuck in your presence to a private conversation or a conversation that ought to be private, no matter what the language.

So if they are using another language for the sake of privacy, it's rude. They should wait until they're alone.

If they're using another language for the sake of comfort, it's not rude.

The rub is, if you don't understand the language, how do you tell? This is where different live-and-let-live philosophies come into play.

---------------------------------------------

If someone is cutting your hair, they are having a prolonged business transaction with you. Ignoring you during that transaction (which is what having a conversation that excludes you does), is very rude, regardless of whether or not it affects the quality of their work.

If two other hair dressers in the same room who happen to be between clients want to converse in another language, that's fine. But your hairdresser should not join in unless she's willing to include you by tranlating.

[pasunejen]

Where I go most of the stylists seem to be Korean. It doesn't bother me that they speak to each other in Korean while I'm having my hair cut, even if it's about me, as long as my hair comes out okay. Hell, it means they're not trying to talk to me, which is great, because the expectation of chatter makes me dread going to get the mop taken care of.

[Cyros]

... Hell, it means they're not trying to talk to me, which is great, because the expectation of chatter makes me dread going to get the mop taken care of.Agreed. I despise forced small talk. It takes a long time to do my hair, and I'm not interested in talking about the weather or, well, anything other than what I want done with my hair. After that, I don't have anything to say. I don't expect them to have to remain silent for two hours, though. Feel free to converse with other stylists in the language of your choice.

[Loopydude]

I'm going to treat this as an aberration, because I don't recall you showing such bad taste before.

It was entirely meant to satirize the absurd paranoid fantasies of an intolerant patron (though certainly not Draelin, given her good humor).

In bad taste? Oh yes. Racist in intent? Hardly (unless you consider my disdain for white monoglot paranoiacs with self-centered delusions of being interesting enough to illicit the sly insults of foreigners "racist").

Have I been mod-smacked regardless? Just checking.

[Electrical Storm]

It's bothered me for years and I finally figured out why. Not only is it rude to talk over someone, but the people doing it know it bothers others and do it anyway. It's very selfish and inconsiderate to dismiss or exclude someone in such a manner. It's not really wrong to speak in a foreign language around those who don't understand, but it's not very nice, either.

Sometimes they are speaking about you. I am the whitest looking woman on the planet, so no one ever suspects I speak fluent spanish. Walking around stores I hear workers and customers talking about me at least once during my visit. Mostly people make comments about my appearance or wonder why a white woman is shopping in the store.

My favorite kind of gotcha is with my students. I start every year telling them I speak spanish and they never believe me. It doesn't take long for someone to talk about me or say something innappropriate and then I get to pull out my spanish. Jaws drop, the kid looks mortified, and the whole class has a good laugh.

And I'll mention this-- when you're trying to learn the language, you're more likely to be successful if you practice as much as possible. Because they never practice, too many of my students never learn enough english to be employable anywhere outside the city limits.

Hey, so you've pulled the one-two punch as well, have you? :D

Another astoundingly white-looking woman here - who speaks fluent Spanish. I've had a few nasty-ass comments leveled at me and then watched with pleasure as jaws dropped when I responded in their language. :D

It really doesn't happen to me very often, but when it did, the looks on these people's faces were...priceless.

[pulykamell]

I don't give a damn. I'm not at the hair salon for a haircut, not a conversation. If they want to talk to each other while cutting my hair, go for it. If they want to do it in Spanish/Punjab/Swahili, knock yourself out. I've spent half my life going to hair stylists where English is not the main language, and it hasn't bugged me one bit.

[OtakuLoki]

I'm another in the 'wouldn't bother me' camp. As long as the person converses with me about my wishes for what I want done with my hair, nails, teeth, whatever, they can do anything they like as long as it doesn't detract from their ability to do the job well.

F'rinstance, some barbershops have TV's in the shop that the hair cutter can look at while they're doing their work. Doesn't bother me, since I've never had someone cut my ear off while they were paying attention to the TV with one eye. I couldn't do it, but that would be my problem, not theirs. Likewise, as long as their attention to my hair, or other task they're doing, is satisfactory, I don't care if they bloody well Yodel. (Well, not much. Yodelling might be a bit much for me to sit through.)

And, like several other people here, I hate trying to make small talk with a complete stranger. I don't mind if I've had the hair cutter for a while and we sorta know each other, but trying to be socialable is a task for me. So if they're happier talking to a co-worker, even in another language, it doesn't bother me.

This isn't to say that I don't understand why some people find it rude. I do. I just don't find it so personally.

To take things further, I wonder, as others have said, how far should the conversation police go? Do we ask the hearing impaired for translations of sign-language conversations on the Metro - which if you've ever ridden the Metro near Galladet, you'll recognize this as being pretty common.

Or is it improper for dental hygenists to talk about another dentist in the building that they work in while they're working on several patients? I certainly didn't think so. And since George* had been my father's grad school roommate, I was familiar enough with the players to enjoy the stories. (Which, alas killed them in my presense. Which was silly - let's face it, George was so.. umm... stereotypically Jewish that he once broke into the engine compartment of a stranger's car to disconnect the battery, because he couldn't get into the passenger compartment to turn the headlights out. You'd think anyone who knew George would know that his friends knew, and enjoyed or at least tolerated, his foibles.)


*George's name has been changed to protect the accused. If you think you know him, email me, and I'll confirm or deny.

[Shirley Ujest]

My mom goes to a local cheapie haircut place.

The ladies there are chaldean (catholic arabs.)

She is pretty sure they barely speak english.

They also are not very good hair cutters.

But they only charge her $8.



:rolleyes:

[lizardling]

Just to add my two cents: I'm deaf, and while I can typically read lips OK when I'm with someone I know, trying to hold up my end of a conversation with a stranger is an exercise in frustration for both parties, even if it's about something as simple as the weather. (This was, unfortunately, true when this *god* sat next to me and tried talking to me the other day, and it was only after the fact that I realized that his introducing himself and then going on to ask me something unintelligible might have been part of a chat-up attempt. One which fizzled rather impressively, I might add. D'oh.)

I'm... well, I won't say I don't have a problem with being excluded from conversations, but honestly, it's the default state for me, and has been my entire life. A lot of the time, it's just not worth it to stand up and demand a summary or translation of what's going on in a language that I can understand.

So I can intellectually get why people might have a problem with not understanding conversations around them. Reading through the discussion here, it seems that part of the issue is the concern that shooting the breeze with the other employees reduces the odds of a good job being done, in addition to the rudeness factor and fear of being talked about, no?

For me, as long as the employees of whatever establishment I'm patronizing are doing their job with sufficient attention to ensure that it's done well, they can talk however much they want in whatever language they want. I would also add that I prefer that they not point and snicker at me to my face. :)

[Loopydude]

This isn't to say that I don't understand why some people find it rude. I do.[/SIZE]

I'm not picking on you, OtakuLoki, just using this as a partial summary of the thread. This seems to be the general attitude: I don't care, but I can see why people might.

I, personally, don't share this level of understanding, and don't feel there's a real issue. Maybe I'm just so accustomed to it (Mandarin is spoken pretty much constantly around me at work) I've become completely inured, but I find the perception of rude behavior to be a bit ridiculous. I mean, seriously, even if two people are saying nasty things about me in a language I don't understand, so fucking what? It's less rude to say I'm a dirtbag in English so I do understand and can be fully aware of the affront? Or, maybe it's better to wait until I'm out of the room to say I'm a tool in Azerbijani or whatever?

If I can't understand what the hell is being said, I'm no more the wiser than if two people are besmirching my good name during a private conversation in the next state. Which is to say, I really couldn't give a fuck, and I honestly can't understand why anyone would, unless they're truly paranoid. Oh, gosh golly, are these hairdressers making fun of my dandruff? Are they in league with the local gypsies and planning a heist?

Come on. If they're making insults, it's petty trash talk, and you shouldn't give two craps anyway. If foreign-born clerks and hairdressers are likely to be casting unintelligible aspersions in your presence, you figure the English-speaking ones don't just wait until you're not around to harsh on you? Since you can't do squat about the latter, why worry about the former? And, as another poster mentioned above, the vast majority of time, those folks are holding a conversation about trivial or work-related matters that have absolutely zero to do with you. They're speaking in their native tongue because it's easier for them, and you needn't be concerned with the content of the conversation because they're not talking to or about you.

[Paul in Qatar]

Another astoundingly white-looking woman here - who speaks fluent Spanish. I've had a few nasty-ass comments leveled at me and then watched with pleasure as jaws dropped when I responded in their language. :D

It really doesn't happen to me very often, but when it did, the looks on these people's faces were...priceless.

I love it when that happens. Or ignore the barber and just ask to hand you the copy of El Pais

[Eva Luna]

Another astoundingly white-looking woman here - who speaks fluent Spanish. I've had a few nasty-ass comments leveled at me and then watched with pleasure as jaws dropped when I responded in their language. :D

It really doesn't happen to me very often, but when it did, the looks on these people's faces were...priceless.

The one-two punch is one of my favorite guilty pleasures, as a not-quite-so-white looking woman who speaks fluent Spanish. Really, I'll never understand why Spanish speakers in any major U.S. metro area think they are speaking some sort of secret language. What the hell - it makes for the occasional amusing moment.

[Clothahump]

Per the article if your hairdresser was having a conversation in Spanish with another employee while working on your hair, would it make you vaguely uncomfortable if you didn't speak Spanish? I'm not interested as much in the EEOC aspects of the case addressed in the article. I'm imore interested in how you would feel. Would it influence your decision about going there again?

Supercuts sued for ban on Spanish (http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-supercuts12.html)

If people are working in the USA, they should speak English on the job. That is the language of the country, whether they like it or not.

[Loopydude]

If people are working in the USA, they should speak English on the job. That is the language of the country, whether they like it or not.

There is no "language of the country" in any official capacity. It's an employer's prerogative to impose certain standards of conduct (so long as civil rights are not violated, which is unclear to me in the hairdresser example), but this mythical "American language" monolith exists only in the minds of some chauvinists.

[OtakuLoki]

I'm not picking on you, OtakuLoki, just using this as a partial summary of the thread. This seems to be the general attitude: I don't care, but I can see why people might.

Loopydude, no worries.

And re-reading I think I expressed myself poorly.

My focus isn't on the possibility of conversations about the person being served, but a more general definition of rudeness or politeness. By speaking in a language that the customer doesn't share, the customer is being excluded from the possibility of joining said conversation. It's not a matter of catering to paranoia, but a matter of percieved assumptions: if one is deliberately excluding someone from a conversation there can be a perception that the person is not being viewed as a real person.

Perhaps it is paranoia, after all, but not quite the same concern you've picked up on. (Which certainly is some people's concern with the foreign language conversations.)

[PookahMacPhellimey]

I'm with Loopydude on this one. Couldn't care less, even if they are actually talking about me.

In fact, I'm guilty of commenting on people in Dutch when out and about with a Dutch friend here in Ireland. If out with an Irish friend we have to whisper or wait two minutes till the person who we were commenting on has gone.

And because I live in a small community, I really have, to a large extent became immune to what people are saying about me. I have to, I would go bonkers if I worried about the small town rumour mill. So I try to be nice sort of person and only worry about the opinions of people I care about. Hairdressers and such would not be in that category.

[Paul in Qatar]

I used to work down the hall from the US Army Historian for Panama. Nice lady. She had her office decorated with all sort of old time photos. One of them was of some WWII command post. (It looked hot and humid.)

A sign on the wall said. "Speak Only English On The Radio!"

This non-problem has been with us forever.