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Phlosphr
08-19-2005, 11:38 AM
I was wondering what the Christian Creationist view of Language Development is? Did Adam just arrive on this physical plane with the ability to speak? Did he really need that ability before Eve arrived from his Ribs....? What language if any did God impart upon Adam and Eve?

DanBlather
08-19-2005, 12:04 PM
Since the Bible is written in Olde English, I think it's pretty obvious.

Thudlow Boink
08-19-2005, 12:06 PM
Did he really need that ability before Eve arrived from his Ribs....?To give names to all the animals?
What language if any did God impart upon Adam and Eve?Presumably, the language everyone spoke before the Tower of Babel incident.

hazel-rah
08-19-2005, 12:11 PM
A lot of effort has been put into figuring out which language most closely resembles the language spoken in the Garden of Eden. And it's pretty interesting stuff... read "The Search For The Perfect Language" by Umberto Eco for details.

CJJ*
08-19-2005, 12:20 PM
An interesting hijack here. According to Herodotus (http://www.iranchamber.com/history/herodotus/herodotus_history_book2.php), the Egyptian ruler Psammetichus attempted to determine the most ancient language by taking two children and isolating them from all human language. After two years, the herdsman in charge of the experiment approached the children quietly, and they ran toward him with outstretched arms saying the word "Bekos". Upon inquiring, Psammetichus learned this was the Phrygian word for "bread" (Phrygia was an ancient region of central Asia Minor). So there you have it: The first language was Phrygian:-)

Menocchio
08-19-2005, 12:59 PM
An interesting hijack here. According to Herodotus (http://www.iranchamber.com/history/herodotus/herodotus_history_book2.php), the Egyptian ruler Psammetichus attempted to determine the most ancient language by taking two children and isolating them from all human language.

I've heard this experiment also attributed to a medieval European king. In that case, the kids died.

BrainGlutton
08-19-2005, 01:13 PM
I've heard this experiment also attributed to a medieval European king. In that case, the kids died.

I think that was Emperor Frederick II (who was a bit of a scientist), but I can't find the story in his Wikipedia article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_II%2C_Holy_Roman_Emperor

Skald the Rhymer
08-19-2005, 01:49 PM
I was wondering what the Christian Creationist view of Language Development is? Did Adam just arrive on this physical plane with the ability to speak? Did he really need that ability before Eve arrived from his Ribs....? What language if any did God impart upon Adam and Eve?

My parents are Pentecostals, not fundamentalist proper, but they're heavy into biblical literacy. My mother would say they spoke Hebrew; my father would say it was English.

No, I'm not kidding. This is why I don't about religion with my dad (though for the most part he's a much better man than I am).

Sevastopol
08-19-2005, 01:52 PM
Since the Bible is written in Olde English, I think it's pretty obvious.

Old
Middle
Modern
Present-Day

St James Bible = Modern

mswas
08-19-2005, 04:07 PM
Qabbalistically I think there is a certain assumption that Hebrew is a sort of "Assembly" language that translates the primordial language of the Sephiroth into something that can be thought and spoken.

Of course I do not consider myself a christian as I feel the organization of Christianity is the extension of empire from the Roman empire. (Kind of like the Foundation by Isaac Asimov) with it's two seperate foundations of Orthodoxy and Catholicism, as such they cannot be seperated from the Imperial propaganda. However, I do believe in Christ as the savior in as much as the heart is the doorway to God and the only way to salvation lies through it.

The terms Adam and Eve I believe are the etymology of the terms "Atom" and "Evening", in the ideas that they represent, that of matter, and a seperation of matter in order to provide form. So the language that they spoke would be one of pure physics, in the beginning every word they spoke changed the fundamental nature of that which they named. The naming of such is what allowed for the manipulation of the things that were named. This requires Atom and Evening to be more archetypical forms of conciousness which would more accurately reflect the form of God, as they were made in God's image. This would make it more like Atom and Evening were the first incarnations of the patriarchal and matriarchal God figures. Of course there are the traditions of Satan and Lilith, which at a time where the singularity is much more mutable could very well just be manifestations of the other side of both Atom and Evening presenting the appearance of a dichotomy where there really wasn't one for all practical intents and purposes. The inhabitance of the hairless monkey came later, and may very well have been a concious engineering of such creatures to allow for maximum versatility. I also believe in a lost antiquity of the human race prior to the 6000+ years that we consider as "History", where human beings existed in an alternate form from what they exist in now.

I personally have a pet theory that I toy with once in a while where Hebrew is kind of the language of the beginning and English is the language of the end, in otherwords the language of ultimate purity and the language of ultimate bastardization. (Don't attach the concept of superiority/inferiority to any of these words please I am not making moral judgements of the languages)

Also, I completely believe in evolution. DNA is a form of information, if not language (being that it's not 'lingual') That information is implicit to the formation of the world that we currently inhabit and even if Hebrew has maintained any modicum of purity in all that history, our understanding of it has not, therefore it's not really possible to state simply what the original language was as supposedly God split the original language into multiple languages when he smote the Tower of Babel for the sin of not creating a strong structural foundation first. God doesn't have a lot of tolerance for shoddy workmanship that attempts to disobey things like the law of Gravity. ;) Perhaps the disunity of language after the Tower of Babel was a schism between the Priests, Nobles and Workers who undertook such a large task and ended up with a certain amount of tunnel vision. So the original language would be any words that Atom made up.

Erek

FriarTed
08-19-2005, 04:13 PM
There is a theory in very conservative C'tian & even Jewish circles that all the world's languages are rooted in something that could be called paleo-Hebrew.
Such theorists have found some interesting parallels in many language groups to
Semitic roots. I have no idea how valid these are.

Conversely, it's not too out-there to wonder if pre-Fall humanity had a form of telepathy.

Wallenstein
08-19-2005, 04:22 PM
Conversely, it's not too out-there to wonder if pre-Fall humanity had a form of telepathy.

Eh...? Sounds a bit far out to me!

What's the origin of the belief that Adam and Eve were telepaths... is that part of modern Christian doctrine? :confused:

yBeayf
08-19-2005, 04:22 PM
It was Church Slavonic. :D

The terms Adam and Eve I believe are the etymology of the terms "Atom" and "Evening", in the ideas that they represent, that of matter, and a seperation of matter in order to provide form.
Nope -- "Adam" is Hebrew for "human", and "Eve" (Hawwah) is "life". "Atom", though is Greek "atomos" ("a + tomos") == "not cut", and "evening" is from Old English "aefnung", a verbal form of "aefen" == "evening", ultimately coming from an old Germanic word "aebando".

I personally have a pet theory that I toy with once in a while where Hebrew is kind of the language of the beginning and English is the language of the end, in otherwords the language of ultimate purity and the language of ultimate bastardization. (Don't attach the concept of superiority/inferiority to any of these words please I am not making moral judgements of the languages)
The only problem with this is that there exist languages before Hebrew, and Hebrew itself is manifestly part of the larger Semitic and Afro-Asiatic groupings, and there even exist languages (such as Arabic) that maintain more primitive Semitic features that Hebrew has lost. It's not some sort of mystical proto-language, but just a relative latecomer to the Afro-Asiatic family of languages.

FriarTed
08-19-2005, 04:27 PM
Here's are sites promoting a book THE WORD by Isaac Mozeson which expresses the above idea-

http://www.hebrewworld.com/theword.html

http://www.hebrewworld.com/index.html

http://www.homestead.com/edenics/word_contents.html

Chronos
08-19-2005, 04:30 PM
Uh, Sevastopol, last I heard, nobody has yet canonized King John, nor anybody else involved in the translation of the Bible which he commissioned. And the language currently spoken in England, the US, etc. is Modern English, just as was that spoken in the time of Shakespeare.

Chronos
08-19-2005, 04:33 PM
(substitute King James for King John there... I knew something didn't look right when I posted it)

yBeayf
08-19-2005, 04:34 PM
And FriarTed, there aren't enough rolleyes in all of creation for that Mozeson fellow's work.

FriarTed
08-19-2005, 04:35 PM
Eh...? Sounds a bit far out to me!

What's the origin of the belief that Adam and Eve were telepaths... is that part of modern Christian doctrine? :confused:


Oh Lord, no!

It's just speculation I've heard occasionally by Christians over the years that
perhaps Adam & Eve in their unfallen state could have been in such harmony
with each other & the world around them that they had complete & open mental
communication with each other & maybe even animals.

mswas
08-19-2005, 06:08 PM
And FriarTed, there aren't enough rolleyes in all of creation for that Mozeson fellow's work.

Why?

Thudlow Boink
08-19-2005, 06:09 PM
So that's where "If you really loved me you'd read my mind" comes from!

Rachm Qoch
08-19-2005, 06:29 PM
Old-School Mormonism holds that some words from the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covanants derive from the Adamic Language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adamic_language) .

Adam-ondi-Ahman, an early LDS Missouri settlement, has been variously translated as Adamic "Valley of God Where Adam Dwelt" or "Adam's Grave" or "Adam with God".

yBeayf
08-19-2005, 07:01 PM
Why?
Because comparing isolated words from various unrelated languages looking for vaguely similar meanings is not a valid method of doing comparative linguistics. Exactly the same technique has been used to try to prove that Turkish and Dravidian are mothers of all languages, and both of those instances have exactly the same validity as this attempt.

Apos
08-20-2005, 11:46 AM
There is a book that a scientist (Penrose?) wrote about this very subject, albiet more in the sense of noting that creationists have just as much against the evolution of languages as their do of creatures: it's just that since language is rarely taught in schools, it's a less immediate controversy. The Tower of Babel is the Biblical word on the matter of differing languages. Adam, of course, was made with that capacity already, and it's not clear it's supposed to matter what that language was called.

spingears
08-20-2005, 02:11 PM
Presumably, the language everyone spoke before the Tower of Babel incident.Wasn't/isn't that known as PreBabelFish?

alaricthegoth
08-21-2005, 02:32 AM
Oh Lord, no!

It's just speculation I've heard occasionally by Christians over the years that
perhaps Adam & Eve in their unfallen state could have been in such harmony
with each other & the world around them that they had complete & open mental
communication with each other & maybe even animals.

am I to glean from the above that y aoure talking here not of some proto-telepathic neanderthals symbolically rendered as A&E, but of actual created individuals, with names, dicks, pussies, all that stuff?

uglybeech
08-21-2005, 04:22 AM
and there even exist languages (such as Arabic) that maintain more primitive Semitic features that Hebrew has lost.Quibble: "primitive?" Older maybe. But I don't know of any evidence that older languages are more "primitive."

Lynwood Slim
08-21-2005, 11:24 PM
As has been noted, Hebrew is not the most ancient of Semitic languages.

We know Hebrew almost entirely from the Hebrew Bible, and those who know the text well can easily determine older and newer strata of Hebrew. For example, the poems in Ex. 15, Judges 5 and at the end of Deuteronomy show forms of early Hebrew, while the prose of, for example, most of the rest of Deuteronomy is clearly a latter stratum.

The morphology of older Hebrew is found regularly in other cognate languages: Phoenician, Canaanite and Ugaritic (some add "proto-Aramaic" to this mix), and in older and less closely related Semitic languages, e.g., Akkadian and Assyrian.

The most ancient language of the area that we have records of is Sumerian, but it is not a Semitic language. Sumerian precedes Hebrew by at least 2000 years.

cmkeller
08-22-2005, 10:47 AM
Jewish belief is, unsurprisingly, that Adam and Eve spoke Hebrew.

Futile Gesture
08-22-2005, 11:49 AM
How could Adam have spoken anything like an existing language without a third person? He had no-one to talk to except god, and no-one else to talk about. It would be like living with a two dimensional language!

And even once Eve came along, why bother with pronouns? There was only one she. Why does she need two nouns all to herself (er, Eveself) ? True, there was two possible "hes", but you could work out which one according to who was speaking.

cmkeller
08-22-2005, 11:58 AM
Fultile Gesture:

How could Adam have spoken anything like an existing language without a third person? He had no-one to talk to except god, and no-one else to talk about.

There were still animals and angels.

Monty
08-22-2005, 04:41 PM
Don't forget the reflexive pronouns either!

mswas
08-23-2005, 12:43 AM
I've always found the meaning of sounds more interesting than the meaning of characters strung together. I think phonems hold more of a key to any primal language than characters. Phonems would by their essence of vibration as opposed to straight intellectual meaning would be more "primal".

In studying Kabbalah there is some interesting stuff with Hebrew, and there is something to Hebrew as a deeply encoded language, whether or not it's the "First" language, I cannot say, but according to some Kabbalists I have spoken to, Hebrew is embedded in our psyche, and we don't need to learn it as much as "remember" it.

Erek

TokyoBayer
08-23-2005, 01:01 AM
Old-School Mormonism holds that some words from the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covanants derive from the Adamic Language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adamic_language) .

Adam-ondi-Ahman, an early LDS Missouri settlement, has been variously translated as Adamic "Valley of God Where Adam Dwelt" or "Adam's Grave" or "Adam with God".

Back when I was a Mormon, we used to chant PAY LAY ALE in the secret temple ceremony. This has been changed (http://helpingmormons.org/compare.htm)
1) The chanting of the words, PAY LAY ALE, which temple patrons are told are from the ancient "Adamic language" and mean "Oh God, hear the words of my mouth." However, in actual Old Testament Hebrew, it may be translated to mean "Marvelous false god!"

foolsguinea
08-23-2005, 02:10 AM
Since, even from a YEC p.o.v., languages clearly evolve, the best answer is, who knows? Something that evolved into whatever Noah spoke, which got completely corrupted at Babel, & that's that.

bonzer
08-23-2005, 06:23 AM
There is a book that a scientist (Penrose?) wrote about this very subject, albiet more in the sense of noting that creationists have just as much against the evolution of languages as their do of creatures: it's just that since language is rarely taught in schools, it's a less immediate controversy.

You're thinking of Robert Pennock's Tower of Babel (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0262661659/qid=1124796505/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-3210288-4070436?v=glance&s=books).

yBeayf
08-23-2005, 11:45 AM
Quibble: "primitive?" Older maybe. But I don't know of any evidence that older languages are more "primitive."
I'm using "primitive" in the sense it's used in linguistics, of "underived", "unchanged" or "original", as opposed to the common meaning of "crude" or "unsophisticated".

Nonsuch
08-23-2005, 01:58 PM
An interesting hijack here. According to Herodotus (http://www.iranchamber.com/history/herodotus/herodotus_history_book2.php), the Egyptian ruler Psammetichus attempted to determine the most ancient language by taking two children and isolating them from all human language.
Otherwise known as "the forbidden experiment (http://www.feralchildren.com/en/experiment.php)."

Monty
08-23-2005, 03:28 PM
I'm using "primitive" in the sense it's used in linguistics, of "underived", "unchanged" or "original", as opposed to the common meaning of "crude" or "unsophisticated".
Interesting, that. In none of my linguistics courses did the professors use the term primitive. Now, the prefix proto- was used quite often.

mswas
08-23-2005, 09:33 PM
Interesting, that. In none of my linguistics courses did the professors use the term primitive. Now, the prefix proto- was used quite often.

Primacy is a common theme in Theology. There are people who believe that Abraham as a more primal man than we are today had much more of a direct contact with God due to that primal state, and as we move farther from that, our relationship is less direct, less primal. Prime also being the fundamental energy from which the firmament is made. Remember a Prime Number can only be divided by itself and One, so numerologically that would describe a direct divine relationship between the individual and the singularity.

The only reason I have any believe in the idea of Hebrew is from studying the Sefer Yetzirah, what is triggered by that relationship seems buried deep within my psyche, and I have experienced some of what is described within it personally, like the attainment of "Chokmah" conciousness which is a sort of pure unadulterated flow of Wisdom. Binah is where thought comes in, and where the Sephiroth are displayed for one to understand and create symbols with which to describe the Tree of Life. The concept of Binah is the same as the concept of Binary code, so one could argue that Binary Code is the "Primal language" though Chokmah is even more "Primative, and it can only be experienced, not articulated.

Erek

Monty
08-23-2005, 10:30 PM
Well, linguistics isn't theology and your posting has nothing to do with what my professors taught, thankfully.

mswas
08-23-2005, 10:45 PM
Well, linguistics isn't theology and your posting has nothing to do with what my professors taught, thankfully.

Why would you enter a thread about the language Adam and Eve spoke and then be arbitrarily derisive of theology? Did I not tell you how proud I am that you accomplished getting your linguistics degree? I don't understand why you are being competitive honestly.

yBeayf
08-23-2005, 11:38 PM
Interesting, that. In none of my linguistics courses did the professors use the term primitive. Now, the prefix proto- was used quite often.
<shrugs> I've heard it used a fair bit. An example of its use wrt Semitic languages would be that the emphatic series of consonants are a primitive feature, retained (with some modifications) in Arabic but lost in modern Hebrew.

yBeayf
08-23-2005, 11:44 PM
Why would you enter a thread about the language Adam and Eve spoke and then be arbitrarily derisive of theology?
He's not being derisive towards theology, he's being derisive towards your rather incoherent response to a point regarding linguistics. And the sefirot have nothing to do with linguistics (or anything else, really, for that matter).

tomndebb
08-24-2005, 12:24 AM
Before this runs off the rails, I hope that everyone notes that yBeafy noted primitive features and not primitive languages. Had there been a reference to a "primitive" language, I would find it uninformative and distracting, (and wrong, of course), but I have also heard languages and dialects mentioned as carrying primitive features within language groups. His original comment simply noted that within the entire Semitic language group, some languages such as Arabic continue to use earlier/more primitive features, not that Arabic (or any other language) was more primitive than any other.

devilsknew
08-24-2005, 01:02 AM
I wonder if there was ever a human who spoke a Neanderthal language/dialect or if early Homo Sapien's and Neanderthal's proto languages shared any roots (assuming that Neanderthal had language, of course.)?

I've always thought it funny imagining that there were probably 'cavemen translators' that had spent time among the Neanderthals and acted as a go between when they coexisted peacefully. I bet quite a few 'cavemen' were multilingual considering nomadicism and humanity's tendency toward assimilation for survival.

Monty
08-24-2005, 08:02 AM
He's not being derisive towards theology, he's being derisive towards your rather incoherent response to a point regarding linguistics. And the sefirot have nothing to do with linguistics (or anything else, really, for that matter).
Exactly.

Thanks also to Tom for his expansion regarding the use of primitive. An interesting thing to note, though, is that a proto-language may have features that the current language does not; however, later that language may pick up those features again, such as inflections.

mswas
08-24-2005, 04:54 PM
He's not being derisive towards theology, he's being derisive towards your rather incoherent response to a point regarding linguistics. And the sefirot have nothing to do with linguistics (or anything else, really, for that matter).

You're right, the Sefer Yetzirah a book about the language of creation has no basis in this discussion whatsoever, what could I possibly have been thinking? We've got to get down to the serious SCIENCE!!!!!!! of what language Adam and Eve spoke!

I'll try not to be so stupid next time.

Erek

yBeayf
08-24-2005, 05:06 PM
You're right, the Sefer Yetzirah a book about the language of creation has no basis in this discussion whatsoever, what could I possibly have been thinking? We've got to get down to the serious SCIENCE!!!!!!! of what language Adam and Eve spoke!
If the Sefer Yetzirah says that Hebrew was the first language, then it is wrong. There are written records of languages long before Hebrew came on the scene, and Hebrew is demonstrably not the ancestor of any other known language. Whatever language Adam and Eve spoke, it was not Hebrew.

I'll try not to be so stupid next time.
Thanks. I appreciate it.

Monty
08-25-2005, 01:58 AM
Did I not tell you how proud I am that you accomplished getting your linguistics degree? I don't understand why you are being competitive honestly.
Please refresh my memory.

uglybeech
08-25-2005, 03:01 AM
I'm using "primitive" in the sense it's used in linguistics, of "underived", "unchanged" or "original", as opposed to the common meaning of "crude" or "unsophisticated".Just noticed that you answered my (uninformed) quibble. Thanks for the explanation/edification. I'd never have figured that out on my own. (As jargon goes, though, I have to say I find it an unfortunate choice. Imagine if evolutionary biologists started using the term "primitive" to mean ancestral. :( )