How come they didnt repeat the Dr. Manhatten experiment

[bubastis]

In the graphic novel Watchmen? Seems that if seperating Ostermann's intrinsic field created a superman, why not create an army of supermen? Maybe it was attempted, but never mentioned. Even in the "journals" printed in the G.N. it makes no reference to a repeat attempt. Is there any chance that Ozymandius' cat also survived?

[Askia]

IIRC, much was made in WATCHMEN about how everything is pre-ordained, even Jon Osterman's responses when he became Dr. Manhattan. It is strongly implied that Dr. Manhattan's creation was utterly unique. I believe the excerpt from the book-within-a-graphic-novel "Superpowers and superpowers" called the events leading to Osterman's creation "certainly unrepeatable" which makes me think that, off-panel, something like this was tried by America's enemies and failed.

This makes me think it extremely unlikely the event you spoiler-boxed occurred.

Nice UserName.

[Dunderman]

The spoilerboxed event is extra impossible becauseit is if not said outright then at least heavily implied that Osterman "willed" himself into being as Dr Manhattan using his sentience, which Bubastis, as lovely as she is, is sadly without. Think of her as the 500.001st victim of the plan that saved the world.
The bigger question here is, who would volunteer to enter the chamber and try to become the second Dr Manhattan? No-one had any idea how he managed to do what he did.

[astro]

The spoilerboxed event is extra impossible becauseit is if not said outright then at least heavily implied that Osterman "willed" himself into being as Dr Manhattan using his sentience, which Bubastis, as lovely as she is, is sadly without. Think of her as the 500.001st victim of the plan that saved the world.
The bigger question here is, who would volunteer to enter the chamber and try to become the second Dr Manhattan? No-one had any idea how he managed to do what he did.

I haven't read it in a few years, but IIRC the implication was that due to his watchmaker training and sensibilities he was able to conceive (and execute) the notion of re-assembling himself biologically step by step (like re-assembling a watch). He literally re-built himself a body and occupied it with his sentience.

[Dunderman]

Precisely. That pretty much rules out both the spoilerboxed event and the "army of supermen".

[Askia]

"Really, it's just a question of re-assembling the components in the correct order."

[DocCathode]

I agree with 'they did try. Nobody else came back.'. Due to certain qualities and knowledge, John was able to come back. The watchmaking gave him the ability to remember where each miniscule part went, exactly what it looked like, what its function was, how it connected to all the other parts. His studies of physics gave him umm an understanding of physics. The circumstances of his death (waiting in terror unable to do anything, seperated from the woman he loves, etc) combined with everything else to create unique conditions.

The government is willing to deploy Dr Manhattan in war in Viet Nam. The President has the Comedian kill his enmies and political rivals. The loss of human life wouldn't even have been a consideration. They tried. Nobody else could reassemble themselves.

Re The Other Thing Nope. Bubastis had no knowledge of physics or watchmaking or anything equivalent. Rather than waiting in fear and loneliness to die, she was dematerialized instantly. Plus, she's a lynx. She doesn't have the levels of consciousness or inteligence necessary to reconstitute herself.

[bubastis]

Aaaa-aaaa-wrrr! Oowaa-aaaaa-rrowr!

[betenoir]

The bigger question here is, who would volunteer to enter the chamber and try to become the second Dr Manhattan?


I'm guessing a whole lot of people. Well, certain people.

"Ok, you could become omnipotent. But we're not realy sure how it works and their are considerable ri-"
"I'll do it.'

People have certainly wagered their lives, minds, sanity, and general comitment to this temporal plane for much less.

[Little Nemo]

There was the great scene in the final episode where Ozymandias thinks he's kille Dr Manhattan who then reappears and says, "Did you really think disintergrating me would work? Rebuilding myself was the first thing I learned. Even Osterman knew how to do it."

[middleman]

People have certainly wagered their lives, minds, sanity, and general comitment to this temporal plane for much less.

But would the government want to use them as guinea pigs? The problem with this scheme would be, it would take someone crazy and not brave. We are talking mental patient, not astronaut.

The kind of people the government would want to survive with godlike powers are not the type of people who volunteer for a suicide mission.

The only way it works is if you find a controllable and benign physicist who is dying of cancer.

Even then, maybe he isn't so controllable after he becomes a demigod.

No. I'd argue that they never tried it again. I think they realized that one potential overlord was enough. I think Nixon focused on keeping the one they had under control and refused to add another wild card into the equation.

I think it is possible that with Manhatten gone, the government might begin to try at THAT point.

[Bryan Ekers]

I think it is possible that with Manhatten gone, the government might begin to try at THAT point.

Well, especially if they believe they're facingimminent extra-dimensional alien invasion

What I found odd was the theorized limitations on Manhattan's abilities, i.e. he could destroy some 60% of incoming Soviet missiles. Why not all of them? Why couldn't he preemptively split himself into thousands of seperate Manhattans and visit each Soviet silo, bomber and sub, transforming the rockets into dust? The limitation is necessary for tension, but not supported by the story.

[Acsenray]

IIRC, much was made in WATCHMEN about how everything is pre-ordained, even Jon Osterman's responses when he became Dr. Manhattan.

I disagree with this. It might have been, from Manhattan's point of view, but it's because he had a unique perspective -- he experienced all things at once, no matter when they happened. Time means nothing to him. However, he did not have the power to use his knowledge of a future event to change a past event. So it's not that everything was preordained, but because of Manhattan's unique perspective, his ability to act at any one time was limited.

[Scumpup]

One suspects that the projections of the Doctor's ability to destroy incoming missiles were based on a gross underestimation of his abilities. Been a while since I read it, but as I recall even he didn't know what the upper limits of his powers might be.
As for repeating the experiment, I agree with those who say that attempts were made and that they failed. What I'd like to know is why Ozzy, "The Smartest Man on the Cinder", didn't try it himself. We're told over and over again how brilliant he is, and he certainly doesn't lack drive or willpower or the necessary hardware. I can easily see him deciding that the only way to save us from ouselves is for him to become God. Then he spends a few years turning his marvelous intellect to the study of physics, watchmaking, biology and whatever else he deems necessary. Shortly thereafter, Earth has a 2nd (3rd?) God.

[Cliffy]

But would the government want to use them as guinea pigs? The problem with this scheme would be, it would take someone crazy and not brave. We are talking mental patient, not astronaut.

But right after Osterman first became Dr. Manhattan, the government didn't really think they'd have such trouble controlling him. It was only after decades of living among humans that he began to distance himself from them. In the Cold War '50's, the government would have loved to have a couple more gods on the payroll, especially some that were used to taking orders.

--Cliffy

[holmes]

That's because he still had ties to his previous life as Osterman, once his friends and lovers got sick, old and died, as Osterman should have; "they" lost the hold they had on him. Once he stopped trying to be Osterman, with the needs and weaknesses of Osterman; the government could no longer control him. That was what the government didn't realize until too late, Dr. Manhattan was going to eventually grow up.

[middleman]

But right after Osterman first became Dr. Manhattan, the government didn't really think they'd have such trouble controlling him. It was only after decades of living among humans that he began to distance himself from them. In the Cold War '50's, the government would have loved to have a couple more gods on the payroll, especially some that were used to taking orders.
--Cliffy

If you think you can control the one you have, and he is enough to be the leverage that allows YOU to go "adventuring" in Afghanistan, wouldn't that be enough?

The only way I can see them going back for seconds is if a defense contractor bought the rights to the technology and then lobbied powerful congressmen to get the government to buy 100 Dr. Manhattens.

Of course, they would run over budget, not work as promised, and be horribly late.

[Askia]

holmes. The key loss was not more closely monitoring his relationship with Silk Spectre.

acsenray. I see your point.

[holmes]

holmes. The key loss was not more closely monitoring his relationship with Silk Spectre.

Sure had they realized what was happening between him the Silk Spectre, they might have known he was changing, but they still couldn't have stopped the change. His relationship with Silk Spectre was symbolic of his maturity as a "superior" being, not the cause of it. Even if they did somehow manage to control him with the Silk Spectre, sooner or later she was going to die, then what? How do mortals control the immortal, assuming they don't have extra organs in their chest to absorb energy from structures or magic helmets, scrolls and such?

[Acsenray]

If I can switch to another issue from the book, how many of you think that the Comedian murdered the Hangman? It's stated that several people suspect it, but I don't recall there being any definite conclusion.

Another hero -- I forget her name, but she was a lesbian -- was also murdered. Was it implied that the Comedian might have been responsible for that one too?

[Askia]

holmes. Not that this would have been guaranteed to work, but I think trotting out a harem of sufficiently nubile 16 year old girls fitting Silk's Spectre's general, uh, assets and psychological profile might have kept Doc Manhattan around a few more decades. The real question is how come the U.S. government didn't initiate a massive cover-up immediately to hide Doc's abdication of Earth? The stupidest thing you want to do in a international crisis is tip off the enemy the lynchpin in your defense system went AWOL.

ascenray. The Comedian totally smoked Hooded Justice, if only because Ozymandias thinks it happened even if he couldn't prove it. Second theory: Nelson Gardner, Captain Metropolis -- as Hooded Justice's abused gay lover (remember that little bombshell?) -- killed HJ in self-defense and somehow buried the bones. Or perhaps he was a Soviet spy who outlived his usefulness.

I'm pretty sure Silhouette's lover did the deed, and the Comedian didn't do it.

[Cliffy]

If you think you can control the one you have, and he is enough to be the leverage that allows YOU to go "adventuring" in Afghanistan, wouldn't that be enough?

Governments don't think that way. We've got enough nukes to destroy the world 10 times over, right?

Plus, all the agencies and service branches would want their own Dr. Manhattan so they wouldn't be subject to turf wars.

--Cliffy

[Scumpup]

Second theory: Nelson Gardner, Captain Metropolis -- as Hooded Justice's abused gay lover (remember that little bombshell?)

No, I don't remember that. Where/when was that stated or implied?

[Askia]

Scumpup. Well this is my own fault for opening up my mouth.

And I don't see it in this character annotation, (http://www.capnwacky.com/rj/watchmen/characters.html) so maybe I'm wrong. BUT..

Um... I think it was a line or two in one of the extra appendixes near the end.... I think it was Silk Spectre's photo album. Going by memory here.

It was definitely stated by Silk Spectre I in that mock Playboy interview that one of the Minutemen was gay, and it was hushed up.

IIRC correctly, in that same section Sally Jupiter's husband/agent Laurence Shexnayder wrote her a letter bemoaning how Nelson came to him crying about Hooded Justice and how all some kid they picked up needed to do was go to the police with bruises and it would be the "Silhouette fiasco" all over again.

[Askia]

Ah. Got it. WATCHMEN, end of chapter IX, on the third page of the scrapbook clippings for the Hood Justice and Nelson Gardener comments ("H.J. and Nelly".) The comments by Silk Spectre were in Probe, not PLAYBOY, sorry.

But I do knows me some Alan Moore.

[Bryan Ekers]

Interestingly, a lot of people seem to think the Comedian killed reporters Woodward and Bernstein. I never understood this conclusion, especially in light of TC's dismissive comment that if one "smoke[d] enough weed", one could imagine anything. The impression I got is that W&B tried to break the Watergate story, but Nixon was so popular that nobody much cared (as was the real-life case early on). Also, there was a throwaway reference to Al Haig's resignation, and a great many people had speculated that Haig was Deep Throat (since proven wrong). Unable to make Watergate amount to anything much, I infer, Haig resigned. Nixon, after Vietnam, was untouchable.

[Askia]

Woodward and Bernstein were almost certainly killed by the Comedian, his denials notwithstanding. It was at that dinner honoring Blake, and Laurel Juspeczyk was questioning, "Why?" and "everybody seemed real pleased with him." The revelant line was, "See those Post reporters they found in that garage? Woodward and whatsisname? Jewish name..."

[Bryan Ekers]

The revelant line was, "See those Post reporters they found in that garage? Woodward and whatsisname? Jewish name..."

Ah, I thought the line was "See what those Post reporters found..." i.e. they claimed to have found out something useful about Watergate but were dismissed.

[Scumpup]

Ah. Got it. WATCHMEN, end of chapter IX, on the third page of the scrapbook clippings for the Hood Justice and Nelson Gardener comments ("H.J. and Nelly".) The comments by Silk Spectre were in Probe, not PLAYBOY, sorry.

But I do knows me some Alan Moore.

Well, it seems pretty conclusive that HJ was gay; but, I'm not sure I buy that Captain Metropolis was gay as well, much less HJ's abused lover. The references to him as "Nelly" seem to me to be more of a disparaging nickname than anything else.

[CalMeacham]

1.) Because they were afraid of creating a race of truly annoying Smurfs

2.) Because they already had Blue Man Group

3.) They did, but the others weren't as successful, and are now serving as "Visible Man" exhibits at museums across the country

4.) Because they didn't wan anyone else who looked like the Arnolf Schwartzeneggar "Mr. Freeze" running around

5.) Too many people thought he was a fifth guy they quietly added to the "Fruit of the Loom" troupe -- the Blueberry

[DocCathode]

Re Hooded Justice

Back when The Minutemen were still around and the Comedian wore a yellow harlequin outfit, HJ beat the crap out of him. HJ had an extremely good reason. But, all the Comedian would care about is that somebody else was able to utterly defeat him in combat. The Comedian is the kind of guy who holds grudges and who must always prove how tough and macho he is. Once he had some government contacts and support, he uncovered HJ's identity, tracked him down and killed him.

Re Manhattan and time

He says things like 'I can see the strings, but I'm still a puppet.'

RE Ozymandias

I think he'd be realistic about his chances. Remember that he unmasks himself when he predicts public opinion turning against superheroes, rather than thinking 'But, I'm so great that they will always love me.' If he thought that the odds weren't good on his becoming a second Manhattan, he'd develop another plan.

[DocCathode]

Well, it seems pretty conclusive that HJ was gay; but, I'm not sure I buy that Captain Metropolis was gay as well, much less HJ's abused lover. The references to him as "Nelly" seem to me to be more of a disparaging nickname than anything else.

At least one character says that 'It's tough to keep their secret. They keep behaving like old marrieds.'

[DocCathode]

The Comedian and HJ

Issue 2, Page 7

Comedian (after being beaten by HJ) "This is what you like huh? This is what gets you hot" and "But I got your number, see? And one of these days, the joke's gonna be on you"

From the Under The Hood Excerpt at the back of issue 2 Re Silhouette

", and six weeks later she was murdered, along with her lover, by one of her former enemies." As Hollis Mason mentions the Comedian's assualt and attempted rape of Sally on the same page, he certainly would have made some kind of allegation if he believed the Comedian to be responsible for the murders.

HJ and Captain Metropolis

From Sally's scrapbook at the end of issue 9

Letter to Sally from her agent Larry

"Nelly called me last night, upset over yet another tiff with H.J. Those two are getting worse, the more they row and act like an old married couple in public, the harder they are to cover up for. I know that you've provided a steady alibi * for H.J. up to now, and that the publicity we got from that hasn't exactly hurt you either, but it can't last much longer. Nelly says he's always out when Nelly calls, out with boys, and apparently there's a lot of rough stuff going on."
Emphasis mine. We know HJ is gay. But Larry says "they".


* The Under The Hood Excerpt at the end of issue 2 mentions that while HJ and Sally seem to be dating, Hollis never sees them so much as kiss. Being of an earlier generation, he never realizes that Slly is HJ's beard.


BTW I should have said that Manhattan tells Lori 'This conversation ends with you in tears.'

[Scumpup]

Thank you, Doc Cathode. Nelly was a nelly.

[Bryan Ekers]

There is, I believe, a foreshadowing of HJ and CM's relationship early on, in issue 1, page 25, panel 4 (the restaurant). Two older men, one bearded, one not, are showing mutual affection. The two men roughly resemble HJ's alleged alter ego (the German strongman) and CM's civilian appearance.

[Cliffy]

Are they the right ages, Bryan? Maybe they really are them. I agree that Comedian would have killed H.J. and that the book suggests that's what happened to Rolf Mueller, but it could be that the Comedian was fooled about H.J.'s identity. I always assumed Mueller was supposed to be H.J., but I recently read a pretty convincing repudiation of that somewhere (on the SDMB?). Although I can't remember why I was convinced. Anyway, maybe blake killed Mueller thinking he was H.J., but was wrong.

--Cliffy

[middleman]

Man. Almost 20 years later and I'm still hearing new elements to the story.

Once in college, on a blind date, a girl told me that her English class was studying some stupid comic book called Watchmen. Despite being an attractive young co-ed, she never got a second call from me!

[Bryan Ekers]

Are they the right ages, Bryan? Maybe they really are them. I agree that Comedian would have killed H.J. and that the book suggests that's what happened to Rolf Mueller, but it could be that the Comedian was fooled about H.J.'s identity. I always assumed Mueller was supposed to be H.J., but I recently read a pretty convincing repudiation of that somewhere (on the SDMB?). Although I can't remember why I was convinced. Anyway, maybe blake killed Mueller thinking he was H.J., but was wrong.

Hollis Mason and Adrian Veidt independently thought Mueller was HJ, and Veidt suspected Blake had kiled him, but both admited to a lack of evidence.

It was undisputed, though, that Captain Metropolis (aka Nelson Gardner) had been decapitated in a car accident in 1974.

[Cliffy]

Ah. Forgot about Nelly's accident.

Thanks,
--Cliffy

[Otto]

Once in college, on a blind date, a girl told me that her English class was studying some stupid comic book called Watchmen. Despite being an attractive young co-ed, she never got a second call from me!
Dumbass.

[middleman]

Dumbass.


Real reason: She was a fundie and I was pretty sure she wouldn't put out.

[Askia]

Real reason: She was a fundie and I was pretty sure she wouldn't put out. Tightass. With coochie cobwebs. Ouch.

[DocCathode]

Ah. Forgot about Nelly's accident.

Thanks,
--Cliffy

Actually, now that I've started re-reading the series, I wonder whether Nelson actually comitted suicide in such a way that it appeared to be an accident. He was getting old and increasingly out of shape. His attempt at forming the CrimeBusters was a total failure. But, he would never want anybody to know he had killed himself. He plans an accident sure to be fatal, and not look suspicious. He succeeds beyond his expectations. His head is removed from his body, and even the most suspicious people don't question that it was an accident.

BTW

Just how much stuff does Veidt own? Dan's front door is fixed by the Gordian Knot lock company. Due to Veidt's fixation with Alexander, and with the Gordian Knot ('Lateral thinking! Centuries ahead of its time.') I'm sure Veidt owns that company. The movie theater by the news stand is the Utopia. There is mention of the Promethean Cab company. I'm sure there are more.

Re The Government's Back-Up plan

When Manhattan leaves, it's clear that the US government has a big nuclear arsenal- ICBMs, bombers, subs etc.