I pit the substandard governmental response to the situation in New Orleans. [Archive]

Hippy Hollow

09-02-2005, 11:04 AM

There are a ton of threads surrounding Katrina, looters, people who didn't leave, etc. What I am infuriated by is the seeming lack of coordination of governmental agencies - from the NO police to the mayor's office to the state level, and even the federal response. Today was the first day that I actually saw and heard the mayor of New Orleans, and I have all the cable news channels...

It seems that NOBODY is in charge of the evacuation or rescue efforts. I've seen Harry Connick, Jr. in the streets trying to help people but not representatives of elected officials responsible for law and order in the city. I certainly understand that I'm not necessarily seeing everything, but I am perplexed that after 9/11 and the heightened security alert, this situation is turning into a demonstration of how flat-footed the response has been to date.

A lot of us here, and in other places in the nation have been Monday morning quarterbacking the response. Can they not evacuate people from Louis Armstrong Airport? Can they not have the buses from any major school district (I used to to teach in Houston and there are at least four bus barns in the city that have hundreds of buses parked, every night) and get them to the Superdome and Convention Center? Who is the individual (or individuals) responsible for coordinating this effort, and why are they not explaining to the people of New Orleans (and the nation) what the plan is?

It seems the response has been completely ad hoc. A sizeable number of the NOPD apparently walked off the job... why? Why wasn't there an immediate response to this? Have they sent out trucks with loudspeakers to reassure and instruct people as to what they should do? I would think in this nation, in the immediate aftermath of a disaster, one could expect instructions and help instantly.

I want to make clear that the work of relief workers, guardsmen and women, and those people on the ground has been amazing. The individual acts of courage (such as a young man who rowed a boat full of children to the convention center because their mothers could not make the trip, and the nurse who was helping people in the convention center) should be applauded and I am so happy that they are exercising the leadership that the municipal, state, and federal leaders have not.

Posters from around the world have remarked at their amazement over how unorganized and chaotic this evacuation has been. As an American citizen - one who has lived through the L.A. riots and other situations of civil unrest - I am simply slack-jawed in horror about what is not being done on behalf of poor, mostly Black citizens of this nation. The scene in New Orleans resembles a third-world country because the governmental response has been third-rate.

Is anyone else as disappointed, sickened, and angered as I am at the leadership involved?

Eve

09-02-2005, 11:10 AM

There's a good Great Debates (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=332934) thread on this.

Hippy Hollow

09-02-2005, 11:13 AM

thanks, Eve, for the heads up. (It's actually in IMHO, but the link works fine.) I still think they deserve to be pitted, though.

Frank

09-02-2005, 11:14 AM

Is anyone else as disappointed, sickened, and angered as I am at the leadership involved?
Yes. After this is done, I expect to see resignations and firings at the highest level. Personally, were I President, I would fire the Secretary of Homeland Security and the guy in charge of FEMA. Today.

Eve

09-02-2005, 11:15 AM

(It's actually in IMHO, but the link works fine.)

Oop! That's what I get for only clicking on "New Posts."

THespos

09-02-2005, 11:19 AM

I believe the reason many NO cops walked off the job is because they were instructed to defend property against looting, and many of them believed it wasn't worth risking their lives to do so. After all, the looters have picked up guns from every Wal-Mart and gun shop and people have been spotted roaming the streets with AK-47s and the like.

I supposed if I were a cop and were told to go defend some big box store instead of working to find survivors, I'd give someone the finger too.

Merijeek

09-02-2005, 11:23 AM

Yes. After this is done, I expect to see resignations and firings at the highest level. Personally, were I President, I would fire the Secretary of Homeland Security and the guy in charge of FEMA. Today.

Haha. Yer funny.

Your progress in the current administration depends on loyalty and toeing the party line. You know that.

I envision a new government agency. One created to coordinate everything from security to search and rescue. An umbrella organization that will get all of our government agencies to work together to maximize their responses to such disasters.

Oh, right. Nevermind. We've already got that, and boy do I feel better.

-Joe

Frank

09-02-2005, 11:25 AM

Haha. Yer funny.
Yeah, I know. In case you're concerned, I promise I'm not holding my breath waiting for it.

GIGObuster

09-02-2005, 11:43 AM

I posted this before, but it fits better here:

There was a great :rolleyes: moment today on TV when the president (paraphrased) said to the LA politicians and rescue managers: "You are doing a heck of a job"

Because TODAY, earlier, Bush said otherwise:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.impact/index.html
Before leaving Washington, Bush told reporters that millions of tons of food and water were on the way to -- but the results of the relief effort "are not acceptable."

Merijeek

09-02-2005, 11:46 AM

Yeah, I know. In case you're concerned, I promise I'm not holding my breath waiting for it.

Better watch it. This is in danger of becoming a librul circle jerk. After all, we're in like 7 posts and not one post praising The Leader.

-Joe

Crotalus

09-02-2005, 12:01 PM

Conservative Republican Bush voter and supporter here. I'm dismayed at what has been revealed about emergency preparedness and coordination in the wake of the hurricane. It would probably be counter-productive to get rid of the top people at FEMA or DHS right now, but heads should roll later. I'd also be interested in knowing what they've been spending money on in terms of disaster planning since DHS was established, because it doesn't look like we've achieved much in that area.

Kalhoun

09-02-2005, 12:14 PM

I'm angry as hell. I have seen all these politicians congratulating each other for a job well-done, and I can't help but wonder what disaster they're talking about.

I'm angry that Homeland Security, the same agency that's worried about a fuckin' bobby pin on an airplane...the same agency that has curtailed our basic rights in the name of safety from the enemy, failed so miseraby not only to protect us, but to rescue us from the most devastating disaster and enormous clusterfuck our nation's history.

I'm angry that these people are speaking to each other in cryptic bible-speak, praying at every turn instead of getting the right people in the right place to fix this thing. I'm torqued that the president and congress didn't drop EVERYTHING and get their pompous asses back to work on MONDAY while the hurricane was taking the Gulf Coast apart, fercrissakes.

I'm pissed off that the plan to avoid this disaster was, for whatever reason, blown off. This is our darkest hour. We've handled this with all the skill and agility of a third-world nation with no resources. What. The. Fuck. I'm horrified. If "the terrorists" are watching, they'll probably figure it's safe to cut their operating budget in half.

Psycho Pirate

09-02-2005, 12:17 PM

There was a great :rolleyes: moment today on TV when the president (paraphrased) said to the LA politicians and rescue managers: "You are doing a heck of a job"

Because TODAY, earlier, Bush said otherwise:Yeah, I'm not blown away with how well the government has handled this so far, but I can't imagine it would have done much good if Bush had told those in charge of the efforts, "You guys stink on ice! What a miserable job all of you are doing.!" There's a time and a place for everything, but that was not the time nor the place. Investigations and firings should take place after the situation is under control.

Long Time First Time

09-02-2005, 12:19 PM

For years and years and years, there have been voices out there saying that you can't get something for nothing. That it is magical thinking to believe that we can collect less taxes but provide more services.
These voices have been voted out and replaced by those (from both parties) who have told the people otherwise. Infrastructure? We don't need no stinking infrastructure. We also don't need no big government or expensive programs. Not if that means not cutting taxes let alone raising some.

Funds to shore up the levee system have been cut from budgets or not put into budgets for decades.

Now it's time to pay the piper....

If anything good comes of this entire mess, it might be that the US public wakes up and realizes that if they want any type of reliable infrastructure or government services - they will need to pay for them.

.

5que

09-02-2005, 12:40 PM

Well, at least Bush has told us that Tret Lott's house will be rebuilt.

Does he NOT understand how stupid that sounds when people are dying???

Merijeek

09-02-2005, 12:45 PM

Psycho Pirate, when is it time to criticize? It seems that when it comes to our current "leadership" it's never.

Don't criticize before hand: "That's negative thinking and you're only helping the Saddamists/Communists/Terrorists/Hurricanes"
Don't criticize during: "People are dying! Now is not the time!"
Don't criticize after. "People are dead! Wait until later you heartless bastard!"

Wait until...?

Until they're no longer dead, apparently.

For years and years and years, there have been voices out there saying that you can't get something for nothing. That it is magical thinking to believe that we can collect less taxes but provide more services.

You seem to have forgotten that anything can be forgiven and forgotten as long as taxes are lowered.

ANYTHING.

Mortgage your future today!

-Joe, notices you didn't forget, just wanted to bitch and reinforce

GIGObuster

09-02-2005, 01:04 PM

Yeah, I'm not blown away with how well the government has handled this so far, but I can't imagine it would have done much good if Bush had told those in charge of the efforts, "You guys stink on ice! What a miserable job all of you are doing.!" There's a time and a place for everything, but that was not the time nor the place. Investigations and firings should take place after the situation is under control.
This is the Bush administration we are talking about here, if the politicians or managers that failed are Republicans, they will get a promotion.

SnakesCatLady

09-02-2005, 01:10 PM

Our taxes are paying for FEMA and Homeland Security. So far, neither organization has shown that they have a clue about what they are supposed to be doing.

I want to see some heads roll, preferably from the top down. What I'm sure I will see is lower ranking peons who had no say fired, while the top assholes who have sucked from the public tit for years while producing nothing (but who have friends in high places) keep sucking.

Gangster Octopus

09-02-2005, 01:10 PM

Was I the only one who wanted to reach through the TV and smack that smirk off Bush's face during that interview he gave on Good Morning America to Diane Sawyer?

Rick

09-02-2005, 01:15 PM

When I started in the business world I was taught the following:
1. Hope for the best, but always plan for the worst.
2. Murphy is always one step ahead of you
3. Have a plan
4. Don't foget Murphy
5.Have a backup plan in case your plan doesn't work
6. Have a contingincy plan in case your backup goes to hell
7. Give some thought to what will happen if your contingncy plan fails.
8.Have I mentioned Murphy?

A hurricane in not like an earthquake. They knew this sucker was comming for several days. Why wern't there trucks preloaded with food / supplies and sitting on the TX / LA border waiting to be dispatched?
Why wasn't there more food waiting at the evac centers?
Why wasn't the National Guard ready to deploy on Monday? (Not the ones in Iraq, the other units that are there now)
Why didn't the city corner the supply of porta potties, and service trucks? It was a sure bet that there would be some flooding, and the that the sewage system would stop working.
What a cluster fuck

5que

09-02-2005, 01:19 PM

This is the Bush administration we are talking about here, if the politicians or managers that failed are Republicans, they will get a promotion.No kidding. Maybe they'll get the Medal of Freedom like Bremmer and Tenet.

HeelB4Zod

09-02-2005, 01:32 PM

I am a moderate Republican who voted for Kerry, but whose usual first reaction to most Bush-bashing is an eyeroll. I didn't vote for him so I'm not such a huge fan, but I also don't think he's the human manifestation of Satan, either.

But I am disgusted and ashamed at the response of the Bush Administration to this tragedy. It's incompetent, appalling and unacceptable. As I said in a previous post on another thread, had Bush amassed the requisite amount of political capital from previous policy successes, the government's piss-poor, inarticulate, tone-deaf response to this horror may have been overlooked or at least pooh-poohed. Alas, with a botched war/occupation, a runaway deficit, and now probably inflation, higher gas prices, and higher unemployment coming soon to a theater near you, political capital is in short supply.

I think this hurricane blew away more than the Gulf Coast and the Big Easy. It blew away the last of the Emperor's clothing. You can't pray this one away, Mr. President. You can't bomb it away. You can't blame the media. The trust fund won't help you on this one.

Whether or not it's fair, this is your turd sandwich to eat, Mr. Bush.

Yes, I think this event will have profound political consequences.

BobLibDem

09-02-2005, 02:00 PM

I'm not sure that it will translate into votes in 2006 and 2008. But I have never seen such outrage from the American people. In some ways, this is more disturbing than 9/11. We knew the Islamic extremists hated us, but now we feel betrayed by our own govenment.

Jonathan Chance

09-02-2005, 02:12 PM

Chertoff hasn't been in place long enough to be 'leaving to spend more time with his family'. Something like that would give ammunition to the opposition so I don't expect it.

Brown, on the other hand, is sufficiently far down the food chain that he could be discarded on a whim, really. It'll be his head on the block if the coverage remains highly critical of the administration.

Stephe96

09-02-2005, 02:16 PM

I'm stunned you guys haven't yet found a way to blame Karl Rove for this. :D

GIGObuster

09-02-2005, 02:16 PM

No kidding. Maybe they'll get the Medal of Freedom like Bremmer and Tenet.

Ok, make that then: promotions to all that fail under this administration.

It seems to me that every politician realizes that becoming a "good soldier" for this administration is the way to cleanse any sins of the past and present.

Hippy Hollow

09-02-2005, 02:32 PM

I also usually roll my eyes with the party-line Bush bashing. There are plenty of real issues to beat this administration over the head with. But this event has highlighted how poorly the "war president" performed with a disaster. If anything, this last campaign was all about how Americans were safer with Bush in power. Like the 9/11 commission report said, this administration showed a lack of imagination in not imagining the very best response available from Homeland Security. With all of the attention on counterterror and the like, it seems like ideas on how to evacuate people en masse should be better than they were on 9/11.

Years ago, right after the election of 2000, I recall the exhortations that Bush, the CEO president, would be efficient and move quickly, unlike the wonkiness in the Clinton White House. If Bush is indeed the CEO of USA, Inc., I think he needs to be fired. Is he, individually, responsible for the hurricane? Of course not. But he is the leader of the federal effort to respond. The response has been unimaginative and short-sighted.

KSO

09-02-2005, 02:45 PM

Plenty of fuck ups in the handling of Katrina but the one that's really pissing me off right now is the apparent complete lack of a plan to handle refugees. How in the fuck is it possible, four years since 9/11, that the U.S. doesn't have a plan for housing tens/hundreds of thousands of displaced people? They can't live in the fucking Astrodome indefinitely. Good thing a suitcase bomb hasn't been detonated.

And, by the way, would it be possible to use some of the various military bases BRAC just voted to close as refugee housing?

Innuendo Hunter

09-02-2005, 02:46 PM

Why wern't there trucks preloaded with food / supplies and sitting on the TX / LA border waiting to be dispatched?

Why wasn't there more food waiting at the evac centers?

Why wasn't the National Guard ready to deploy on Monday? (Not the ones in Iraq, the other units that are there now)

Why didn't the city corner the supply of porta potties, and service trucks? It was a sure bet that there would be some flooding, and the that the sewage system would stop working.

This is the heart of the matter.

Everyone knew NO was a disaster waiting to happen. Everyone knew hurricanes roll through that region fairly frequently.

Why weren't these things planned for? Why didn't we prepare to respond earlier?

Why the hell weren't things pre-loaded and ready to go on Monday!!!!!!?????

Fuck!!

:mad:

rjung

09-02-2005, 02:47 PM

Is it worth pointing out that the heads of FEMA appointed by Bush (Joe Allbaugh and Mike Brown) have no experience in disaster management?

Stephe96

09-02-2005, 02:48 PM

This is the heart of the matter.

Everyone knew NO was a disaster waiting to happen. Everyone knew hurricanes roll through that region fairly frequently.

Why weren't these things planned for? Why didn't we prepare to respond earlier?

Why the hell weren't things pre-loaded and ready to go on Monday!!!!!!?????

Fuck!!

:mad:

Actually, hurricanes do not "roll through that region fairly frequently." People were worried about something like this happening over 30 years ago. They've managed to dodge all bullets until now.

Innuendo Hunter

09-02-2005, 02:50 PM

Actually, hurricanes do not "roll through that region fairly frequently." People were worried about something like this happening over 30 years ago. They've managed to dodge all bullets until now.

Err a, by "region" I mean, the gulf. Any hurricane in the gulf has a potential to hit NO. The threat is real.

Stephe96

09-02-2005, 02:52 PM

Err a, by "region" I mean, the gulf. Any hurricane in the gulf has a potential to hit NO. The threat is real.

Exactly. That's why people were raising concerns about just such an even over 30 years ago.

Robot Arm

09-02-2005, 02:56 PM

People were worried about something like this happening over 30 years ago. They've managed to dodge all bullets until now.It's Gerald Ford's fault?

Merijeek

09-02-2005, 03:09 PM

Err a, by "region" I mean, the gulf. Any hurricane in the gulf has a potential to hit NO. The threat is real.

I've never been struck by a bullet. Therefore I am obviously immune to bullets. I have been bulletproof for 30 years now.

Obviously I have nothing to fear from any gun in the world.

Psst. Steph96 is a moron. Don't feed the morons.

He can be entertaining, though, in a 'Retarded Monkey Dancing On A Frying Pan' kind of way. I'm sure he'll be in here to argue that this is all Clinton/Kerry/Gore/FDR's fault any moment now.

-Joe

EddyTeddyFreddy

09-02-2005, 03:16 PM

cnn.com is calling bullshit now. (http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.response/index.html) The big disconnect on New Orleans

The official version; then there's the in-the-trenches version

Friday, September 2, 2005; Posted: 3:57 p.m. EDT (19:57 GMT)

NEW ORLEANS, Louisiana (CNN) -- Diverging views of a crumbling New Orleans emerged Thursday. The sanitized view came from federal officials at news conferences and television appearances. But the official line was contradicted by grittier, more desperate views from the shelters and the streets.

These conflicting views came within hours, sometimes minutes of each of each other, as reflected in CNN's transcripts. The speakers include Michael Brown, chief of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, Homeland Security Director Michael Chertoff, New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin, evacuee Raymond Cooper, CNN correspondents and others. What follows are chipperly optimistic statements from the Federal fucks talking about how well everything's going, and no, they hadn't noticed any real problems other than isolated instances. Followed by eyewitness statements of what's really happening.

My favorite? Where Brown tries the blame-the-media schitck: # Brown: I actually think the security is pretty darn good. There's some really bad people out there that are causing some problems, and it seems to me that every time a bad person wants to scream of cause a problem, there's somebody there with a camera to stick it in their face

Apos

09-02-2005, 03:21 PM

"Those defending the government's response to Katrina as the best we can expect under the circumstances lost an ally this morning -- George W. Bush."

From Reason's Hit and Run. Those guys rule.

Maus Magill

09-02-2005, 03:28 PM

If Bush is indeed the CEO of USA, Inc...
Then he's been running it just like he ran his own companies.

Too bad a mysterious investor or two won't show up to buy the country from him.

Merijeek

09-02-2005, 03:31 PM

My favorite? Where Brown tries the blame-the-media schitck:

Maybe the current admin got a discount on cue cards reading "A few bad apples"?

Because it ALWAYS IS.

-Joe

moonstarssun

09-02-2005, 03:36 PM

Was I the only one who wanted to reach through the TV and smack that smirk off Bush's face during that interview he gave on Good Morning America to Diane Sawyer?

Nope, that was my reaction too. He makes my skin crawl anyway, but that was a new low.

I've gone from horrified to angry when it comes to this situation. How could Bush go around pimping his Rx plan and enjoying his vacation while all this was going on? And now he's saying the response is "not acceptable." Big surprise--it came about five days too late.

Slacker

09-02-2005, 03:41 PM

People, people! Obviously the problem isn't that everyone at FEMA and the DHS are Bush's buddies with no disaster experience whatsoever, it's that we don't have any Republican presidential candidates in charge of teh operation:

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/breaking_news/story/342855p-292734c.html

Rep. John Sweeney, R-N.Y., urged President Bush to appoint former New York City mayor Rudolph Giuliani or two former military officials to run the ground response in the Gulf Coast, saying local authorities are not up to the task.

Sweeney defended the Federal Emergency Management Agency in charge of the effort, blaming instead Louisiana and New Orleans officials. “I think the federal response has been frustrated by the lack of experience on the ground from the local people to really coordinate this,” said Sweeney.
I've read way too much of this shit today, and I can't take much more. :mad:

Thank God it's almost time to go him to my 6 month old daughter, whose laugh can make me forget everything else.

Squink

09-02-2005, 03:41 PM

I'm stunned you guys haven't yet found a way to blame Karl Rove for this. :D
There's no need to invoke Rove, Bush himself summed the situation up beautifully today:THE PRESIDENT: The levees broke on Tuesday in New Orleans. On Wednesday, we -- and Thursday we started .... http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/09/20050902-6.html

Matteo Ricci

09-02-2005, 03:42 PM

Then he's been running it just like he ran his own companies.

Too bad a mysterious investor or two won't show up to buy the country from him.

Funny you should mention that--President Hu Jintao of China will be visiting the White House next week . . . (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/02/AR2005090200244.html)

Maus Magill

09-02-2005, 03:52 PM

There's no need to invoke Rove, Bush himself summed the situation up beautifully today:
The levees broke on Tuesday in New Orleans. On Wednesday, we -- and Thursday we started ....

Am I the only person reminded of those "troubleshoeter" sequences on the local news where the company screwing over the old lady suddenly starts playing nice when the cameras show up?

Stephe96

09-02-2005, 04:01 PM

FinnAgain

09-02-2005, 04:04 PM

neuroman

09-02-2005, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by Rick
Why wern't there trucks preloaded with food / supplies and sitting on the TX / LA border waiting to be dispatched?

Why wasn't there more food waiting at the evac centers?

Why wasn't the National Guard ready to deploy on Monday? (Not the ones in Iraq, the other units that are there now)

Why didn't the city corner the supply of porta potties, and service trucks? It was a sure bet that there would be some flooding, and the that the sewage system would stop working.
This is the heart of the matter.

Everyone knew NO was a disaster waiting to happen. Everyone knew hurricanes roll through that region fairly frequently.

Why weren't these things planned for? Why didn't we prepare to respond earlier?

Why the hell weren't things pre-loaded and ready to go on Monday!!!!!!?????

If we're spreading blame around, I'd like to heap some at the feet of the Louisiana Governor. Kathleen Blanco's office, IMO, had the highest level of immediate responsibility for planning this disaster's aftermath. That is who should have leapt into action once it became clear NO was in the path.

ioioio

09-02-2005, 04:14 PM

I apologize for my vagueness, but I'm not a TV watcher. Last night I turned on the TV for the first time in probably six months, looking for Katrina video. At 9 p.m. my time that turned out to be mostly Fox and that Greta thing who looks like half her face is paralyzed. I did come across a blonde news personality who I'm guessing is famous for her style of not keeping her feelings and opinions out of her reporting. She was interviewing some federal government honcho who said, "We didn't hear from the governor until today that there were shortages at the Super Dome." I actually gasped when I heard this. I don't admire the blonde's reporting style, but I did enjoy her comeback, which was something like, "Perhaps you didn't receive the engraved invitation until today. . ."

Stephe96

09-02-2005, 04:17 PM

Gangster Octopus

09-02-2005, 04:21 PM

AuntiePam

09-02-2005, 04:28 PM

Seems like a good place to share this quatrain from Nostradamus:

Catharina, the storm of Columbus' New World,
Shall hit the newborn child of Orleans,
And bring down the reign of a Georgian shrub;
That scrotum-faced, pinheaded pile of doggie crap.

[It's not really from Nostradamus.]

AFAIKnow

09-02-2005, 04:36 PM

The political failures have been astounding, starting with the Mayor who declared mandatory evacuation but had no consideration for those who id not have the means to do so, to the Governor who seems to be a deer caught ion the headlights, to Bush's inability to lead and failing to jump in when there were local failures.

I couldnt agree more. And what infurates me the most is everyones propensity to place blame instead of rolling up their sleves and do what neds to be done. I think they are currently doing that but to me it sems a few days too late.

Sunspace

09-02-2005, 04:40 PM

Funny you should mention that--President Hu Jintao of China will be visiting the White House next week . . . (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/02/AR2005090200244.html)And Canada is sending the Navy (http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/09/02/canadian_response20050902.html)...

Kepi

09-02-2005, 04:52 PM

Gangster Octopus

09-02-2005, 04:56 PM

lorinada

09-02-2005, 05:02 PM

It would be assumed that guests of the Ritz-Carlton would be white and/or wealthy.

Squink

09-02-2005, 05:05 PM

But at least they got the important people out. :rolleyes:
After the Ritz-Carlton, the Hyatt:
3:34 P.M. - (AP)
The evacuation of Superdome refugees was interrupted briefly when school buses rolled up so some 700 guests and employees from the Hyatt hotel. They were move to the head of the line to be evacuated -- much to the amazement of those who had been crammed in the stinking Superdome for days.http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWLBLOG.ac3fcea.html

Kepi

09-02-2005, 05:20 PM

Your point here is lost on me.
Yeah, well I probably chose the wrong Katrina thread to post that too. There are so many to choose from and I just picked this one.

But with that said, I feel that this example is indicative of the way this whole clusterfuck has been handled. FEMA Director Brown actually said to Paula Zahn yesterday that they just learned about the situation at the convention center on Thursday. Hell, I knew about it on Wednesday since it had been all over the news since then. (Kudos to Zahn for calling him on his bullshit, by the way.)

So FEMA doesn't know about the convention center where people are dying of dehydration, living in squalid conditions, and being subjected to assaults, rapes and threats from the roving gangs of armed thugs. Even after it has been reported by all the news outlets, they still make no effort to get food and water to these people until today. But they were able to put together a rescue effort to save those holed up in the Ritz-Carlton last night? Motherfuck! :mad:

lorinada

09-02-2005, 05:24 PM

I wonder if those buses weren't hired privately - I saw footage last night of a guy whose boss had hired a bus to take him, his employees, and some of the people stranded in the neighborhood around his business out, and supposedly they were commandeered by the authorities to use in the Superdome-Astrodome transport.

I say "supposedly" because you never know what's rumor and what's fact. Even if you have an "eyewitness" you still have nothing to guage their credibility, you have no way to know if they knew ALL the facts or just THOUGHT they knew all the facts, and you never know if what they are saying was indeed FACT or if it was their PRECEPTION of the facts.

lorinada

09-02-2005, 05:26 PM

PRECEPTION

Sorry, "perception".

KSO

09-02-2005, 07:08 PM

flickster

09-02-2005, 07:08 PM

Let's remember that Bush declared Louisiana to be in a state of emergency on Saturday....two days before Katrina hit. That was the signal for Governor Blanco to mobilize the National Guard and do something. What, exactly, did she do? And where, exactly, has she been lately?
You hit one of the nails right on the head
The other is the Mayor of New Orleans
It wasn't Bush or Washington DC's responsibility to develop a working evacuation plan for New Orleans. That responsibility belongs to the city & state. Other than declaring an evacuation order and deciding to open a death trap, what did the Mayor do? Did they attempt to evacuate any nursing homes or hospitals? Not that I've heard of. Any attempt at making transportation available to those without means? Nope - none of that either. This was the responsibility of the City and all they did was open a Hell Hole without ever considering how to feed & water the masses, much less how to handle the waste produced. If you want to take aim at somebody, the Mayor should be your target, not Bush.

ivylass

09-02-2005, 07:11 PM

So I'm not imagining things? The mayor and the governor haven't done much besides wring their hands?

And why didn't they use these to evacuate the city (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050901/480/flpc21109012015)?

ioioio

09-02-2005, 07:38 PM

What the fuck? I'm watching O'Reilly and they cut to Geraldo (look, I'm flipping around between channels, okay?) at the Convention Center. They have not evacuated one person from the Convention Center nor have they brough any water or supplies. How in the hell is it possible that as of FRIDAY NIGHT the people there STILL haven't gotten any assistance? Jesus Fucking Christ.
CNN says supplies have reached the convention center. (http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.impact/index.html)
On the day President Bush visited this devastated city, thousands of tired and angry people stranded at the convention center welcomed National Guard troops and trucks carrying food, water and medicine with cheers and tears of joy.
and
Authorities continued working to evacuate the Ernest N. Morial Convention Center, trying to help the weakest people first.
Doesn't actually say they've evacuated anyone, but it sounds like the process has begun. Finally.

Ogre

09-02-2005, 07:40 PM

Yeah, I'm not blown away with how well the government has handled this so far, but I can't imagine it would have done much good if Bush had told those in charge of the efforts, "You guys stink on ice! What a miserable job all of you are doing.!"But see, that's not leadership. In this case, leadership would have been, "You fucking guys are fired. Take your asses home, and the rest of you had better get me someone in here RIGHT NOW with a nutsack, or your heads roll too. You're still standing here? RIGHT NOW."

If you want to take aim at somebody, the Mayor should be your target, not Bush.Nagin has to share some responsibility for being ill-prepared, but in truth, nobody in the world has the resources to be fully prepared for a worst-case scenario of this magnitude. Nobody. There is no electricity. There is no water. There is no sewerage. There is no infrastructure at all. Nagin has known since the storm blew over that local Emergency Response was utterly overwhelmed. He tried to declare martial law as early as Monday. Anyone who hasn't heard it should listen to Mayor Nagin's blistering, almost-panicky [url="http://kiro.liquidviewer.net/kiro-od/mayornagin.asf"]interview[/asf] with WWL radio. He is so fucking out of his depth it's not funny. Anybody would be.

As for Bush, I am normally very moderate, and usually give him the benefit of the doubt (sometimes I've regretted it,) but after that smarmy goddamned crack about rebuilding Trent fucking Lott's motherfucking beach house and "looking forward to sitting on the porch," I wouldn't piss down that motherfucker's throat if his guts were on fire. THERE ARE OLD LADIES DYING ON THE STREET, IDIOT! MOVE YOUR ASS RIGHT NOW! RIGHT FUCKING NOW! DON'T SIGN THAT BILL TONIGHT! SIGN IT RIGHT FUCKING GODDAMN NOW!

Ogre

09-02-2005, 07:42 PM

interview (http://kiro.liquidviewer.net/kiro-od/mayornagin.asf)

HeelB4Zod

09-02-2005, 08:33 PM

Ogre, you nailed it.

I consider myself moderate, too, and tend to take all the Bush-bashing with a healthy grain of salt. I didn't vote for him, but I've always accepted him as my president. My natural impulse is to "rally around the leader" in times of crisis (or at least give him the benefit of the doubt). I know that earns me the automatic enmity of a lot of people on this board, but it's the truth, and furthermore, it's my own cross to bear.

I'm horrified by his "leadership" in this crisis.

His utter inability as a leader to emote human sympathy beyond religious platitudes - probably because he's never had to deal with any kind of real hardship - has earned him my contempt. I could live with it if he were an emotional cold fish but an effective administrator and got help to these suffering, dying UNITED STATES CITIZENS!!!!! But the incompetency we're witnessing on the part of our federal government is inexcusable, and as head of the federal government, Bush gets the blame.

JMO, I really think this is a tipping point, and I'm using myself as a bellwether. If someone who's as square, as establishment, and has as much of a company guy mentality as me can feel this way, I imagine I'm not alone.

duffer

09-02-2005, 09:23 PM

Um, Ogre? You realize that a society is based on law, right? We all knew that billions would be made available for recovery, but it has to be done in a certain way. Congress has to approve it. Imagine your response to Bush allocating a few billion to anything without approval from Congress. It has to be done in a certain order. That's the way government runs. Not always the most efficient, granted, but that's the way it is.

And you can't start firing people in the first day or two after a disaster of this magnitude. Not those in leadership roles. they're doing the best they can with what they have. What do you propose? Fire the guy that happens to be in office when the storm hits? And replace that person with whom? You better do it in about 8 seconds to keep the succession of help flowing to those in need. Oh, and forget about the message board dipshits that will come along to start a thread about your choise proving you are EVIL!!!!111!!

Ogre

09-02-2005, 09:38 PM

Congress has to approve it. Imagine your response to Bush allocating a few billion to anything without approval from Congress. It has to be done in a certain order.Don't be stupid. I recognize that it has to be done in order, but his lackadaisical "Oh, I'll sign that there bill tonight, but for now, a thousand points of light!" crap is insupportable. This is a crisis. He should have been waiting outside the House chambers for that bill to come out, and he should have signed it on his aide's back.

And we pay Chertoff's salary for this sort of thing. If he didn't have every available Navy Zodiac, johnboat, canoe, and swamp buggy on the way to the Superdome to truck the sick and elderly out to one of those shallow-draft barges they reopened the Port of New Orleans for, the second the Port was reopened, he should be thrown out on his ass. Nagin asked for Federal assistance on Monday. He got jack shit.

duffer

09-02-2005, 09:41 PM

HeelB4Zod, I assume you think Kerry or Gore would have been able to sprinkle the pixie dust on this whole situation? The trucks and busses couldn't get to the city any sooner. You see, we had the same problem up here. The vehicles can't get across flooded bridges. Planes can't land on Bourbon Street. There was no way for a massive relief effort to enter the city. What of that do you just not understand?!?

In case you haven't noticed it being pointed out over and over and over again, the relief starts with the city and state. Maybe you can comprehend (maybe not) that the Federal government exists to ensure national security and soverignty. The big ones include defense, transportation, energy and the like. When a disaster hits, the city begins the efforts. If needed they call upon the state, and if that isn't enough they need other states and Washington to get involved.

You see, this is why not every tornado, hurricane, flood and blizzard qualify for federal aid. Never have. It has to be a situation where the local resources are simply overwhelmed. Again, I've experienced it. I've lived through it. I've seen first hand the effort and the limitations of those efforts. I know what the fuck I'm talking about in this case.

You just cannot, under any pie-in-the-sky scenario you dream up, get help to that many people that quickly. Keep in mind the aftermath of places like Kobe, Japan. I seem to remember there was a little trouble there awhile back. Did everyone have 3 hot and a cot in 4 days?

Ogre

09-02-2005, 09:45 PM

duffer, you're a politician at heart, and that's the worst thing I can think of to say to you.

duffer

09-02-2005, 09:49 PM

Ogre, have you seen the actual flooding outside the Superdome? The water isn't deep enough for a boat to get to it. And where it is deep enough is too far from accessable roads for trucks to get the people there.

I know it's hard to fathom in the US, but we're just as hostage to a natural disaster as the rest of the world. We're just so used to a lifestyle that offers us enough food and free time with an internet account to bitch about shit on a message board that we forget that many people are living in mud huts hoping the rains come so they don't starve.

Some things in life can't be done no matter how much money you throw at it. Evacuating thousands from downtown New Orleans is one of them. Do you think the government is using this as a way to kill off some undesirables? If that's the case, you need to look at the governor and mayor.

I, however won't place blame. I just pray (oh no! Religion!) that those people make it out alive. But go ahead and gain political points in your mind. Free country and all that.

duffer

09-02-2005, 09:51 PM

duffer, you're a politician at heart, and that's the worst thing I can think of to say to you.

Thanks. That's the nicest thing anyone has said on these boards for a long time. Of course, it doesn't have the impact on my life you may be hoping for. I'll keep you in mind when I finally take over. :p

5que

09-02-2005, 09:52 PM

Wolf Blitzer just spoke with a woman who was evacuated along with about 300 other guests from the Ritz-Carlton Hotel last night.
Maybe all those poor black people should have gone there instead of the convention center or the SuperDome.
But at least they got the important people out. :rolleyes:
The Ritz-Carlton payed for the buses -- they were hired privately. They also evacuated their staff, not just the rich white customers.

Private businesses & organizations are the ones getting something done, at least in these early days.

Ogre

09-02-2005, 09:54 PM

Ogre, have you seen the actual flooding outside the Superdome? The water isn't deep enough for a boat to get to it.Obviously, you have never ridden in a johnboat or swamp buggy, both of which are made to float (in the case of a johnboat) in inches of water or (in the case of a swamp buggy) dry fucking land, if need be. Lousiana has thousands of both. Don't give me excuses. Mobilize them.

monstro

09-02-2005, 09:56 PM

There was no way for a massive relief effort to enter the city. What of that do you just not understand?!?

What's changed between now and yesterday? And the day before yesterday? And the day before that day? Why now is it possible for a massive relief effort to finally begin?

The media had no problem entering.

It makes no sense what you're saying.

duffer

09-02-2005, 10:16 PM

Obviously, you have never ridden in a johnboat or swamp buggy, both of which are made to float (in the case of a johnboat) in inches of water or (in the case of a swamp buggy) dry fucking land, if need be. Lousiana has thousands of both. Don't give me excuses. Mobilize them.

And after dodging bullets and people sinking them in an effort to climb on board, what highway do they take them to? Where do they go from there? And where are the captains coming from? The Carolinas? Florida? Surely you don't think there are enough people in NO that not only have access to the boats, but can actually pull this off.

And the Coast Guard or Navy? Sure, they can help, but you have to give them time to get there. Are you suggesting these small watercraft be moved into the area hit before it was hit? Seems to me that any boats that can be used are going to take a few days to get there. And again, once the people are on the boats (a few at a time based on the size) where do they go? Seriously, I'd like to honestly know if there is anywhere to take them that will get them out of the city faster.

And you seem to have all the answers. Why aren't you in charge of anything like this? I'll wager it's because you don't comprehend the reality of what is happening. That's not an insult in any manner. Hell, I'm not qualified to be in charge and I've been through the same thing. Forget nationality, politics, religion; we are still just people that can't control everything that happens. We adapt, we do our best, and most of us wait for the bodies to cool before trying to score political points.

And monstro, do you not understand the difference of getting a reporter into a city versus getting tens of thousands out? There were cameramen in downtown filming the building I work in burning to the ground while we were watching the footage in Minot. It happens like that. Reporters go where the news is. I guess it would be better if they weren't there showing us what is going on. Without the footage, I probably could have distanced myself and saved the $100 I sent to the Salvation Army yesterday. Plus, we wouldn't have so many shittings around here of how Bush is to blame.

Enjoy your moment to shine.

Ogre

09-02-2005, 10:20 PM

And you seem to have all the answers.And you seem to be a yes-man for any sort of gross incompetence.

duffer

09-02-2005, 10:34 PM

And you seem to be a yes-man for any sort of gross incompetence.

What's your fucking answer to it then? How many times do I have to say that I've lived through this shit? I know personally what is happening with the relief effort. What the fuck are you doing other than sitting in your comfy home bitching about it? What would you do different now that you know the effects of something that has never happened before? You have the benefit of hindsight, yet you still can't tell us what the optimal response would be. Is the DU site down tonight?

monstro

09-02-2005, 10:38 PM

And after dodging bullets and people sinking them in an effort to climb on board, what highway do they take them to?

You know, I'm sick of this. It's not coming just from you but a bunch of people on the 'Dope.

I've been watching the news and listening to reports. I have not heard of massive riots or crazy mobs attacking rescuers. The reporters on the scene have said that the fear about violence and chaos has been generally unwarranted. I keep hearing about someone shooting at a helicopter. Was that a single isolated incident? It sure seems like it. So why do we keep hearing about it?

What it sounds like are people are either truly afraid of their own countrymen or they are repeating the "They are so violent!" mantra so as to justify the delay and assuage their feelings of guilt and shame.

These aren't foreigners or enemy combatants. They are old people, children, pregnant women, young fathers, teenagers, handicapped people, sick people, hungry people, and very demoralized PEOPLE. Only a small minority have taken up arms. They shouldn't and don't have enough power to keep the RICHEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD from sending in the Cavalry. Yet this is the tired excuse they keep cramming down our throats.

It's not swallowing it!

flickster

09-02-2005, 10:47 PM

Yes, I know of Fire Dept Rescue Boats that were loaded up and taken back to their home town after being shot at while trying to rescue people.

Ogre

09-02-2005, 10:48 PM

What's your fucking answer to it then?How about getting a few of these (http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/us101/us10110.html) and some of these (http://www.watchungspringwater.com/images/pr1187_PS_24oz_24_HO.jpg) (after all, some water company donated 12,600 cases of it as of Monday morning), guarded and distributed by a detachment of soldiers, and fucking get it to the Superdome before the frail old ladies die in their wheelchairs of dehydration? Y'know, like Tuesday, at the latest. The people were, after all, TOLD that the Superdome is where they should go. You'd think that there'd be some preparations in place.

What the fuck are you doing other than sitting in your comfy home bitching about it?If you must know, I let my EMT training lapse over the last few years, so I can't be a first responder, but I have donated money, I have volunteered my professional services in this group (http://www.esri.com/news/pressroom/hurricanemaps.html), and I have contacted the Red Cross to come down and serve as physical labor to clear debris on the Gulf Coast whenever I'm needed. I'll expect to be called after the first rush of rescues are finished.

So take your self-righteousness and shove it up your ass.

Is the DU site down tonight?What the fuck is DU?

monstro

09-02-2005, 10:55 PM

Enjoy your moment to shine.

This really doesn't answer my question, but thanks for playing.

Mama Tiger

09-02-2005, 11:01 PM

HeelB4Zod, I assume you think Kerry or Gore would have been able to sprinkle the pixie dust on this whole situation? The trucks and busses couldn't get to the city any sooner. You see, we had the same problem up here. The vehicles can't get across flooded bridges. Planes can't land on Bourbon Street. There was no way for a massive relief effort to enter the city. What of that do you just not understand?!?

Wrong, Grasshopper. I've been saying this everywhere I've been posting since Tuesday: Highway 90, across the Crescent City Connection bridge and out the Westbank, remained open, undamaged, and never flooded. There has ALWAYS been at least one major highway route directly into downtown New Orleans, once the wind stopped blowing.

By Wednesday, I-10 west was open and clear to Baton Rouge. The airport was also up and running. I-10 into downtown from the airport was clear.

Today, the rail lines were opened up and Amtrak is running trains in to evacuate people. The Port has also been opened to barge traffic.

Transportation is not and has not been the major issue everyone has assumed it is because the media kept focusing on the destroyed Twin Span on I-10 east. But the Westbank never flooded. They could have had semi loads of emergency supplies delivered to the Superdome by Wednesday at the latest. They could have delivered battalions of troops into downtown by Wednesday at the latest. The mayor was begging for them.

So why does everyone keep whining that there wasn't any way to get stuff into downtown New Orleans? There was!

kinoons

09-02-2005, 11:03 PM

I posted this exact same thought in a GD thread, and I think it has something to add here as well...

All of this arguing about the federal response has really gotten my goat...

Lets really sit down and think about this.

Idea one: airdrop supplies. You cant do that without controlling the ground its being dropped on. Africa is a great example of this. Drop food in the middle of a bunch of hungry people with no order and you have a riot for the food that is there. The majority of it is likely to be destroyed, and only the strong will get what is remaining.

Beyond that, Helicopters simply don't carry enough to make a serious difference.
The UH-60: Empty 11,516 Lbs
Mission gross weight - 20,250 lbs

Inside the helicopter it can carry 2640lbs. . It can crank up to 8000 on an external hook. (per army.mil)

8000 lbs of food, water, supplies. (if it can be mounted below the helicopter, only 2600 lbs otherwise) Water alone weighs 8.345404 a gallon. The aircraft can't even lift 1000 gallons of water. Food and supplies can weigh even more. Also, helicopters are extremely expensive to operate and take a large amount of upkeep. They also do not have extended ranges (320nm). So any supplies they are going to deliver have to be close enough to be delivered. In the case of a disaster of this magnitude, we cant keep supplies close enough to helicopter them in.

The only real way to get a large amount of supplies into the region is via rail or truck.

Idea two: Have supplies pre-positioned. This too, is a bad idea. Nothing is expected to be anywhere near to coast to survive without extensive destruction. That’s why it was evacuated in the first place. What good does tons of supplies do you if they get ruined or swept away? Emergency personal are worthless without their supplies. Even more so, put those people in place before the emergency and they are just as likely to be injured. Now, instead of helping, they require help, compounding the situation.

You have to keep all aid out of the way of the storm until it passes.

Idea three: We should have been there the day after. Do you expect paramedics to arrive on the scene of a gang shooting before the police? I’m not going to get shot for anyone. Until the police are there to ensure it is safe, no one is getting medical attention. If there is civil unrest then rescue workers should not, and are not, expected to place themselves in harm's way to help someone else. Until it is clear that it is reasonably safe to do so, there should be no expectation of aid. This is as much the fault of the refugees as the lack of the police effort/presence.

Idea four: people are getting in and out, so why are not supplies? This one isn't quite so easy. But lets remember, moving a small car, SUV, or small boat over a less than perfect road is more easily done than a large truck loaded with supplies. Large trucks with supplies move more slowly, and need roads to move over, or they move even more slowly.

LMTV A1 Cargo MTV A1 Cargo
Payload: 5,000 lbs 10,000 lbs
Towed load: 12,000 lbs 21,000 lbs

Road speeds at max are appx 55mph. (clear road). If the road is not clear they have to slow down. They can't ford major rivers, and even a few feet of water will slow them to almost a crawl. While we have a lot more trucks, and they carry a lot more than helicopters (which is why they are ideal) they are slow. They have to stop and refuel. Oh, and BTW, these trucks run on jet fuel, so they cant stop at the local giant station and get gas. With a range of appx 300 miles they are going to need fuel tankers to go anywhere. These tankers have to get the fuel from somewhere (Takes time) and need fuel themselves...

So are people able to get in and out, yes. But the trucks that are needed to get supplies in and out are slow, and need time.

I have been on a ground search and rescue team. I am required to take disaster training every year as a paramedic. Almost uniformly we are told to expect to be totally cut off for a week if we are the sight of a major disaster that destroys the local infrastructure. Bridges, roads, and railways are a necessity for mass movement of supplies. I guess that word didn't get out to NO.

So is the organization of the rescue and re-supply effort in disarray, absolutely. Could it be done better, probably. But is it realistic to expect tones of supplies to be onsite one or two days later, not a chance.

El_Kabong

09-02-2005, 11:12 PM

Monstro: Hear, hear. Outstanding post. I have rarely encountered such ridiculously contrived attempts to present rumor, hearsay, and innuendo as support for blind prejudice as I've seen from a certain few posters on this board in the past few days. The appalling indecency of twisting the plight of desperate, trapped, unprovisioned people to serve some reactionary political viewpoint is utterly revolting. Thank fucking Christ they'll lose interest in the next couple of days and go one spew their bile on some other subject that they are totally ignorant of.

That said, yep, looks there's gonna be one hell of a lot of fingerpointing going on over the next few weeks. I suspect that various politicians and bureaucrats are gonna have their feet held to the fire; at least I fervently hope so. I think, however, I will wait till the inevitable investigative report comes out before I join in the poo-flinging.

Large Marge

09-02-2005, 11:12 PM

An interesting tidbit on how people are responding...

Cops join in looting a walmart. (http://www.zippyvideos.com/8911023771013466/countdown-looting-in-walmart/)

Is it any wonder that things have become chaotic?

That was one of the Top 5 most disturbing things I've seen in all this coverage. It's bad when the police abandon their posts, but it's far worse to join the criminals and abandon the people who trust them and who are counting on them for HELP.

It made me sick to my stomach.

Scylla

09-02-2005, 11:15 PM

Ogre

09-02-2005, 11:18 PM

monstro

09-02-2005, 11:28 PM

Y'know, I think about this on a whole lot of levels. I don't have any real answers, but I think some of my thoughts are worth sharing.

I think the Federal response has been bad and slow. No question about it. I think Bush did a poor job of leadership.

But, the more I think about it, the angrier I am at everybody. I think everybody has really sucked through this thing, with a few notable exceptions.

I think the Mayor of N.O. Sucks. Apparently he's been hanging out in Baton Rouge the last few days, and suddenly last night he appears on radio and whines and curses and complains and acts all indignant.

Rudy was in the streets showing a presence half an hour after the trade center fell. He led. I think just about any other Mayor would have shown up at the Superdome the next day, or the Convention Center. I think any other Mayor would have attempted to lead. Where was this guy.

I've heard some police have just turned in their badges and left. Horrible. The city needs these guys.

I think the FEMA response and the Federal response has been just terrible. Get food and water in there. Get medics in there in the first 24 hours.

I also think the people have sucked. The victims. There is far too much opportunism and looting. There is too much "help me, help me." There are a lot of able bodied people at the Superdome and the Convention Center. There are things an able bodied person could do to help themselves and give aid and succor to those who can't help themselves. You don't sit around waiting to be rescued. You don't complain or whine that nobody is doing anything for you. If nothing else, you clean up the shit and the garbage so the helpless people don't have to sit in it. You do something.

Some disasters show mankind at its best. Some show it at it's worst.

On the evening news, I saw plenty of victims trying to do something. I saw people with brooms sweeping up garbarge and covering dead and trying to comfort people with in tears, people collasped on the ground. I also saw people scrambling for the cameras, pleading directly to the audience.

Even on that stupid entertainment news show, they showed a story about a man, one of the victims, who had taken charge of the convention center and was doing his best to control the situation.

The media has gotten a bad rap in the past, and I know it hasn't come out unscathed through this mess, but today I was actually felt like the reporters had a better handle on what's going on than anyone else. And all the ones I've seen have been fully sympathetic to the victims. Today I saw no footage of looters or thugs; I only saw people who are just in need of help.

lisacurl

09-02-2005, 11:29 PM

I just saw an interview with Charmaine Neville, a local musician of the famous family. She was telling Bishop Alfred Hughes of Baton Rouge what she went through escaping the 9th Ward and New Orleans, and had apparently given the station permission to broadcast it. She was so broken and emotional, but holding it together long enough to tell her story, I am just speechless. That woman has been through the fires of hell, and I defy anyone to deny it.

it's on the WAFB website, http://www.wafb.com/ -- click down to "featured videos" on the left margin.

I'm transcribed it, because it's so powerful:

I was in my house when everything first started. I was in my house in the Bywater area in the Ninth Ward in New Orleans. When the hurricane came, it blew all of the left side of my house, the north side of my house completely off. The water was coming in my house in torrents. I had my neighbor, and an elderly man who is my neighbor, and myself in the house with our dogs and cats, and we were trying to stay out of the water but the water was coming in too fast. So we ended up having to leave the house. We left the house and we went up on the roof of a school. I took a crowbar and I burst the door open on the roof of the school to help people, to get them up on the roof of the school.

Later on we found a flatboat, and we went around in the flatboat, getting people off the roof of their houses and bringing them to the school. We found all the food that we could, and we cooked and we fed people. But then, things started getting really bad. By the second day, the people that were there -- the people that we were feeding and everything -- we had no more food, no water, no nothing. And other people were coming into our neighborhood. We were watching the helicopters go across the bridge and airlift other people out, but they would hover over us and tell us "hi", and that would be all. They wouldn't drop us any food, any water, nothing.

Alligators were eating people. They had all kind of stuff floating in the water. They had babies floating in the water. We had to walk over hundreds of bodies of dead people -- people that we tried to save from the hospices, from the hospitals, and from the old folks homes. I tried to get the police to help us, but I realized we rescued a lot of police officers in the flatboat from the Fifth District Police Station. The guy who was driving the boat, he rescued them and brought them to a lot of different places where they could be saved. We understood why the police couldn't help us, but we couldn't understand why the National Guard and them couldn't help us, because we kept seeing them. But they never would stop and help us.

Finally, it just got to be too much. I just took all of the people that I could. I had two old women in wheelchairs with no legs. I rolled them from down there in that Ninth Ward to the French Quarter, and I went back and got more people. There were groups of us, there was about 24 of us, and we kept going back and forth rescuing whoever we could get and bringing them to the French Quarter since we heard that there were phones in the French Quarter and that there wasn't any water [flooding]. They were right, there was phones, but we couldn't get through.

I found some police officers. I told them that a lot of us women had been raped down there. [her voice breaks] Men were coming in through the neighborhood, not the men that were helping us save people, but others. [begins crying] And they came and they started raping women, and raping them, and then they started killing. And I don't know who these people were, I'm not going to tell you I knew who they were, because I don't. But what I want people to understand is that if we were not left down there like the animals they were treating us like, all of those things wouldn't have happened. People are trying to say that we stayed in that city because we *wanted* to be rioting and we wanted to do this. We didn't have resources to get out; we had no way to leave. When they gave the evacuation order, if we could have left, we would have left.

There are still thousands and thousands of people trapped in the homes down in the downtown area, in the Ninth Ward. And not just in my neighborhood, but in other neighborhoods in the Ninth Ward. There are people still trapped down there -- old people, young people, babies, pregnant women -- nobody's helping them. And I want people to realize that we did not stay in that city so we could steal and loot and commit crimes. A lot of those young men lost their minds because the helicopters would fly over us and wouldn't stop. We'd do SOS with the flashlights, we'd do everything. And it came to a point, it really did come to a point, when these young men were so frustrated that they did start shooting. They weren't trying to hit the helicopters, they figured that maybe they weren't seeing, maybe if they hear this gunfire, they will stop then. But that didn't help us, nothing like that helped us.

Finally, I got to Canal Street with all of my people that I had saved from back there. There was a whole group of us. *I* -- I don't want them arresting nobody else -- *I* broke the window in a RTA bus. I never learned how to drive a bus in my life. I got in that bus, I loaded all of those people in wheelchairs and everything else into that bus, [begins sobbing] and we drove and we drove and we drove and millions of people were trying to get me to help them, to get on the bus with us [breaks down in sobs, Bishop Hughes comforts and praises her inaudibly] I don't know how God gave me the willpower to do... I just tried... [segment ends]

monstro

09-02-2005, 11:36 PM

lisacurl, I'm on the verge of tears.

duffer

09-02-2005, 11:37 PM

So why does everyone keep whining that there wasn't any way to get stuff into downtown New Orleans? There was!

Fuck, I'm tired of this shit. Again (andagainandagainandagain) I ask, have you personally experienced this situation? Have you seen it first hand? Do you know that it takes longer to get supplies to the area than it does to post to a fucking message board?

I know that the stress level is unbeleivable in NO. To a much smaller extent it's frustrating the rest of us because we sit here typing and not able to do anything. I just hope somebody, somewhere will make everyone understand what is happening. It is the worst disaster in American history. 9/11, Pearl Harbor, Camille, Galveston, Andrew, San Francisco. We've never experienced anything like this. We're watching the process of the government learning how to better handle these situations. This is new. This has never happened before.

Remember 9/11? Never had that happened before. Yet the FDNY and NYPD were criticized for not saving everyone. They had no training nor preparation for such a disaster. This is nothing new.

Think back to the middle ages. When a castle fell and the town was destroyed, the people blamed the king. Guess what happened after that? The next community came up with a better system, structure and protocol. People, as always, adapted and changed. For the most part, we adapt and change based on experience. This situation has never been experienced before. We're still learning.

Unlike you, unfortunately, the rest of us Trogs don't have all the answers. We understand that we don't know everything about everything. I realize you have a wealth of information from Google at the drop of a hat, but for things not yet experienced, us mere mortals have to slog through some learning of how to handle things that have never happened here before.

Hope you enjoy your warm dinner tonight. I'm sure the hungry appreciate you posting your political hatred on their behalf.

Hippy Hollow

09-02-2005, 11:43 PM

I also think the people have sucked. The victims. There is far too much opportunism and looting. There is too much "help me, help me." There are a lot of able bodied people at the Superdome and the Convention Center. There are things an able bodied person could do to help themselves and give aid and succor to those who can't help themselves. You don't sit around waiting to be rescued. You don't complain or whine that nobody is doing anything for you. If nothing else, you clean up the shit and the garbage so the helpless people don't have to sit in it. You do something.

Scylla... what the fuck?

Give me the numbers on the estimated 20,000 people who were involved in the looting. Listen, I've said it before: looting sucks, but why is it a major focus instead of ensuring that law and order are in place. Do you think that there is any place in America that after a major disaster, when there is no communication or presence of law enforcement, that it would be safe in the streets? The fact that this is a major focus of what's going on is tragic.

What coverage are you watching? At the Convention Center, I saw a nurse rescuing a child in diabetic shock. She needed insulin and screamed for it. Somehow, someone in the crowd produces insulin (no doubt one of the worthless looters). Child's life is saved. One man, probably in his twenties, rowed a boat from the housing project with EIGHTEEN children by himself because their mothers couldn't travel in the boat.

Christ, I want to be charitable, but part of me wants to tell you to wake the fuck up and realize that EVERY reporter on EVERY network I have watched - FOX, CNN, NBC, ABC, CBS, PBS, NPR - has commented on the way that people, considering the horror they have experienced, are generally calm and working to help each other. Where the fuck do you put garbage where the cans are overflowing - hello, no sanitation in town right now! - and when these same people are trying to stack dead bodies away from the living.

I'm going to attribute this ignorant nonsense to the late hour.

Ogre

09-02-2005, 11:45 PM

Again (andagainandagainandagain) I ask, have you personally experienced this situation?Yes. I kept up my first responder qualifications for a while, but let them lapse over the last few years. In addition, I have seen everything from hurricanes (I grew up in Montgomery, Alabama) to F5 tornadoes (I was in Tuscaloosa when the Bessemer was ravaged.) Anything else?

SanibelMan

09-02-2005, 11:46 PM

For the record, The New York Times (http://nytimes.com/2005/09/03/national/nationalspecial/03mayor.html) says Ray Nagin, mayor of New Orleans, has stayed in the city:

He has been camped out for days on the 27th floor of a structurally damaged and powerless hotel in New Orleans, sending runners to communicate with the few staff members who remain in an increasingly futile effort to run some semblance of a municipal government.

Like many others in New Orleans, Mayor C. Ray Nagin is a man with a home under water, a man whose family has fled to higher ground, a man who is worried about food and clean drinking water.

But at this moment, what defines Mr. Nagin is that he is a mayor without a city.

Ogre

09-02-2005, 11:48 PM

I'm sure the hungry appreciate you posting your political hatred on their behalf.You're the politician here. I have missing friends in New Orleans. You're the one talking about making political hay. I'm talking about getting water to dying people.

Mama Tiger

09-02-2005, 11:51 PM

[Fuck, I'm tired of this shit. Again (andagainandagainandagain) I ask, have you personally experienced this situation? Have you seen it first hand? Do you know that it takes longer to get supplies to the area than it does to post to a fucking message board?

Well, considering that I just left New Orleans a month ago and am intimately familiar with every portion of all those highways, have joined in previous evacuations, and have a pretty damn good idea of what the roads are like there, I'd say I have a damn sight more knowledge of it than you do.

And I didn't say I knew they had the trucks ready to go and didn't send them. I said the excuse that there weren't roads open won't fly because there was a major highway open all along. What part of that sentence do you fail to understand?

Large Marge

09-02-2005, 11:52 PM

The Ritz-Carlton payed for the buses -- they were hired privately. They also evacuated their staff, not just the rich white customers.

Private businesses & organizations are the ones getting something done, at least in these early days.
Cite?

Equipoise says in another thread that FEMA sent the buses:

Watching CNN yesterday and today...yesterday a woman, a tourist from Baltimore, called CNN to let them know that there were about 300 people stranded at the Ritz Carlton in New Orleans. She said they had food and water but the situation was starting to get uncomfortable. She was very calm, not demanding that they be rescued. She just wanted to let someone know that people were there, while understanding that they were not a priority. I was very impressed with her.

She just called back into CNN and told Blitzer that she and her husband were back home in Baltimore. He asked her for details and she said that shortly after her phone call to CNN helicopters started showing up, buzzing above the hotel. A couple of hours later everyone was called to the ballroom where the hotel manager told people they would have to walk 4 blocks to the Marriott because busses couldn't get to the Ritz. FEMA would have busses there waiting for them. She said there were doctors with them and they "were able to commandeer" some antibiotics from a Walgreens across the street, and gave doses of antibiotics to everyone. Armed guards accompanied the group to the Marriott. They expected 8 busses to be waiting for them, but at midnight 18 busses showed up, along with more armed guards, police escorts, and helicopters with searchlights. They were transported to Baton Rouge, greeted at the hotel there with food and showers. They then took flights to Houston, then a flight back home to Baltimore.

She did send her thoughts and prayers for the people who had to stay in the city. She didn't sound smug. I think she was very aware of how lucky she and the other people were to be white folks with money.

kinoons

09-02-2005, 11:53 PM

Incomplete, kinoons. The military also has CH-47D Chinooks, which carry up to 17 tons externally (34,000 pounds,) and presumably, they have more than one of them. In any case, we're not talking about enough water for everybody to take a bath. We're talking about survival. Let's say you have pint bottles of water. That's eight per gallon, and roughly 4 times your 1000 gallon estimate for one Chinook. That's 4000 gallons times 8 pints per gallon, or 32,000 servings of water. Per helicopter.

The Army only has 425 of these helicopters in the inventory. 300 of these airframes are scheduled for remanufacture. So out of the possible 425, worst case is only 125 are available to the Army.

So for arguments sake lets call it 250 airframes available to the Army at this time. I am not privy to the location of these airframes, I'm willing to bet that a large number of them are in Iraq, Afganastian, Keora, or elsewhere around the world. I'd be surprised if there are more than 50-75 airframes in the US. Out of these 50-75 airframes I'd bet a few are down for maintenance. So I'd say 40-60 are operational. They cruse at 137 MPH. These vulnerable airframes need to be kept hundreds of miles away from the area to ensure they are not damaged during the storm. You're going to loose a day or two just ferrying them to the area of operations. (biggest disadvantage)

While it is great to be able to carry 26,000 LBS (if you can sling the supplies), the supplies cannot be close to the area, so you're looking at a 300 or 400 mile range to the site of the disaster and back. Allowing for loading times, you might get two flights in during a day.

Also, those 26,000 lbs of supplies have to be brought to one central location to load the helicopter. You're not going to just land at the local bottled water factory and load up. Trucks are still needed to bring supplies to where the helicopter is. This also takes a lot of time.

Scylla

09-02-2005, 11:55 PM

Scylla... what the fuck?

Give me the numbers on the estimated 20,000 people who were involved in the looting. Listen, I've said it before: looting sucks, but why is it a major focus instead of ensuring that law and order are in place.

Exactly, because it's an impediment to ensuring that. I don't mean just the looters, the tales we're hearing of rape and murder are just terrible and I've seen the images. There's a lot more of it going on then I would have expected.

Do you think that there is any place in America that after a major disaster, when there is no communication or presence of law enforcement, that it would be safe in the streets?

September 11, the earthquake in San Francisco. I dunno why, but for some reason it seemed that there wasn't much opportunism during those disasters. Everybody seemed to be pulling together.

The fact that this is a major focus of what's going on is tragic.

No. The fact that it's going on is tragic.

What coverage are you watching? At the Convention Center, I saw a nurse rescuing a child in diabetic shock. She needed insulin and screamed for it. Somehow, someone in the crowd produces insulin (no doubt one of the worthless looters). Child's life is saved. One man, probably in his twenties, rowed a boat from the housing project with EIGHTEEN children by himself because their mothers couldn't travel in the boat.

You seem to think that I'm making some kind of blanket statement. I'm not. I'm saying that there's too much looting going on. Too much opportunism. I heard about these people from Lake Charles who took their boats down to help get people out. After yesterday they had to stop. They were getting shot at.

Christ, I want to be charitable, but part of me wants to tell you to wake the fuck up and realize that EVERY reporter on EVERY network I have watched - FOX, CNN, NBC, ABC, CBS, PBS, NPR - has commented on the way that people, considering the horror they have experienced, are generally calm and working to help each other.

Yes. I've seen that too. I've also seen the other parts. It disgusts me.

Where the fuck do you put garbage where the cans are overflowing - hello, no sanitation in town right now! - and when these same people are trying to stack dead bodies away from the living.

I dunno. I've seen film from inside the stadium. It's kind of strange. There are... islands where people are pulling together, keeping things clean, helping each other.

There are also murdered and raped children in freezers, shootings, people afraid to go to the bathroom and having to defecate on the floor for fear of being killed. It's ugly.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050903/ts_nm/mayhem_dc

I'm going to attribute this ignorant nonsense to the late hour.

I stand behind it. I just don't think you're getting my drift.

Large Marge

09-02-2005, 11:56 PM

Well, considering that I just left New Orleans a month ago and am intimately familiar with every portion of all those highways, have joined in previous evacuations, and have a pretty damn good idea of what the roads are like there, I'd say I have a damn sight more knowledge of it than you do.

And I didn't say I knew they had the trucks ready to go and didn't send them. I said the excuse that there weren't roads open won't fly because there was a major highway open all along. What part of that sentence do you fail to understand?

Two days ago, a reporter for CNN, standing in the French Quarter, said that he had bought a tent to sleep in that night but that someone from CNN drove in an RV. The RV was close enough that the reporter pointed in the direction of the RV while he was talking about it, as though it were across the street.

So, if you could get an RV into the French Quarter TWO DAYS AGO ...

Hippy Hollow

09-02-2005, 11:56 PM

Charmaine Neville is a hero. And I know there are others who have done similar things.And it came to a point, it really did come to a point, when these young men were so frustrated that they did start shooting. They weren't trying to hit the helicopters, they figured that maybe they weren't seeing, maybe if they hear this gunfire, they will stop then. But that didn't help us, nothing like that helped us.
I suggested that the "snipers" might have been people trying to get the attention of the choppers in another thread earlier. People actually thought that "lawless thug animals" were shooting at big shiny metal things for fun, rather than desperately trying to get the attention of rescuers. I'm sure if they had rescue flares they would have used them instead.

monstro

09-02-2005, 11:57 PM

Think back to the middle ages. When a castle fell and the town was destroyed, the people blamed the king. Guess what happened after that? The next community came up with a better system, structure and protocol. People, as always, adapted and changed. For the most part, we adapt and change based on experience. This situation has never been experienced before. We're still learning.

We have experienced massive flooding before.

We have experienced massive hurricane damage before.

We have experienced war before. We have experienced riots and unrest before.

And we set up a system--supposedly!--designed to take care of situations that we have never experienced before.

We are NOT in the Middle Ages! Thank God we aren't. If we were Bush's head would be rolling down the street right now.

The President went "tsk tsk tsk" at all the people looting stores for provisions, calling for zero tolerance against crime. Why didn't he call for zero tolerance against people dying of dehydration? Why does it seem like he was made aware of the looting and crime before the suffering and dying?

I don't blame the Prez for any of this mess, but you know what? I don't feel comforted knowing he's in charge right now. He's saying and doing all the wrong things. The more I look at his smirking chimpface, the angier I get.

Ogre

09-03-2005, 12:13 AM

Ogre

09-03-2005, 12:15 AM

Errr, that was to kinoons.

Hippy Hollow

09-03-2005, 12:16 AM

September 11, the earthquake in San Francisco. I dunno why, but for some reason it seemed that there wasn't much opportunism during those disasters. Everybody seemed to be pulling together.
I think this is a completely different situation. 9/11 - as the disaster unfolded, police and fire forces are heading en masse to the WTC. Same at the Pentagon. Brave men and women died trying to save lives minutes after the first plane hit. SF is a better comparison; however the reports initially exaggerated looting... it was later discovered that very few incidents took place.

Everyone seems to be pulling together, from what I'm seeing, with little help from the authorities (again, not to dismiss or ignore those National Guardsmen, police, emergency personnel, etc. who are on the ground working, as well as the Coast Guard, who has saved about 10,000 people so far).

I am loathe to compare disasters - but after the SF earthquake, it was possible to move around somewhat. Flooding makes it a hell of a lot more difficult.

Speaking of pulling together and acts of heroism - Greta Van Susteren is interviewing a young Black man who (I hate that she described it this way; "stole") a school bus, picked up 70 people including the elderly and newborns, and - having never driven a bus before - drove to Houston. The passengers all chipped in to buy gas on the way. Those are the kinds of stories that should be getting airtime. I don't doubt for a second that there are some horrible acts of lawlessness occuring right now. But I think our attention is easily focused on those events, because we can blame those people and not feel empathy or responsibility for their plight. And I don't mean personal responsibility - responsibility as a community.

lisacurl

09-03-2005, 12:18 AM

I don't know how I can live in this country any more. I don't know how I can ever look at the American flag again and not want to vomit.

the truth of what happened in the Superdome and Convention Center "shelters" begins to come out: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050903/ts_nm/mayhem_dc

Leroy Fouchea, 42, waited in the sweltering heat for an hour to get his ration -- his first proper food since Monday -- and immediately handed it over to a sickly friend.

He then offered to show reporters the dead bodies of a man in a wheelchair, a young man who he said he dragged inside just hours earlier, and the limp forms of two infants, one just four months old, the other six months old.

"They died right here, in America, waiting for food," Fouchea said as he walked toward Hall D, where the bodies were put to get them out of the searing heat.

He said people were let die and left without food simply because they were poor and that the evacuation effort earlier concentrated on the French Quarter of the city. "Because that's where the money is," he spat.

A National Guardsman refused entry.

"It doesn't need to be seen, it's a make-shift morgue in there," he told a Reuters photographer. "We're not letting anyone in there anymore. If you want to take pictures of dead bodies, go to Iraq."

...

Other survivors recounted horrific cases of sexual assault and murder.

Sitting with her daughter and other relatives, Trolkyn Joseph, 37, said men had wandered the cavernous convention center in recent nights raping and murdering children.

She said she found a dead 14-year old girl at 5 a.m. on Friday morning, four hours after the young girl went missing from her parents inside the convention center.

"She was raped for four hours until she was dead," Joseph said through tears. "Another child, a seven-year old boy was found raped and murdered in the kitchen freezer last night."

Several others interviewed by Reuters told similar stories of the abuse and murder of children, but they could not be independently verified.

duffer

09-03-2005, 12:19 AM

As far as local government response goes (yes I'm bringing up my own experience again) we had Pat (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/weather/jan-june97/flood_4-21a.html) Owens (http://www.cnn.com/WEATHER/9704/19/ndakota.flooding/index.html) A Democrat, but she held her shit together long enough to offer leadership. Much more we felt than anything coming from Washington. It was local and personal. We needed someone of our own to let us know what was going on. What was happening and what was to be expected. She (I think) retired from politics save for a few speeches for Heitkamp during her run for Governor. Hoeven won, but Owens would get my vote if she runs again. Sadly, I suspect the stress was just too much. She knew what was she was doing. And Govenor Shafer was right alongside her a day or two after the dike broke. (Can't keep the dates straight. It was a little intense abandoning and losing we owned, deal with the lack of cites)

Sadly, I was among those back in May of '97 that thought the gummint should make my life normal. I learned a lot. Sometimes you actually have to roll up the sleeves and clean out the house. You make your life normal on your own mostly. The Feds can help with the major stuff. New housing, better protection from future disasters, etc. But getting your home in order is up to you. It's something you deal with. It ain't easy. And I pray those decent folks in NO are able to resume some semblence of a normal life. They are in for a helluva ride.

markdiscordia

09-03-2005, 12:21 AM

I want to know why the Guardsmen and soldiers who are refusing to stop their trucks, destroying supplies, and abandoning operations at the sound of scattered shots have not been threatened with, at a minimum, dishonorable discharge and forced to go back and execute their orders. The spectacle of soldiers, the people who sign up for a voluntary military knowing that their job is to fight, running away from danger and thus causing further civilian deaths is one of the lowest points of this tragedy.

Sorry folks, but I cannot "support our troops," at least not the troops who have been reported acting in that fashion. Not this time.

Ogre

09-03-2005, 12:24 AM

duffer

09-03-2005, 12:25 AM

Shit, this is what was supposed to fill the extra space in the last post. :smack:

duffer

09-03-2005, 12:36 AM

I hope there'll be some hard-assed, ugly, Nuremberg-style shit that goes on after this.

I knew we could agree on something. There seems to be a fundamental understanding of a society among most of us. Raping children (and you all know my view on that one) isn't even worthy of an insult or fuck I can't even express it in words. Well, I might, but I'll be arrested. What the fuck is wrong with these sick fucks.

This is too much for me. I need a break from it. I'm at the point I'd call for nuking the entire city so these few sick fucks can't spread the misery to the generous cities offering to take them in. I'm out of here for awhile. It's just too personal. Be gentle.

kinoons

09-03-2005, 01:06 AM

I disagree with your timeline. Anheuser Busch had donated over 12,000 cases of water by Monday morning. It was shipped, at the company's expense, to Montgomery, AL for staging, and that wasn't even the first water available. The supplies were available for almost immediate relief. Also, guess where the nearest Chinooks are. Fort Rucker, Alabama (http://www-rucker.army.mil/helicopters/chinook.html), the home of all Army helicopter training, and a mere hop from the Gulf Coast.

Nearest chinooks are stationed in Fort Rucker Alabama. I don’t know the number of helicopters there. Helicopters are relatively fragile creatures. High winds, hail, and thunderstorms all can keep them on the ground. You have to wait for the storm to completely pass before you can take the helicopters out of the hanger. If there isn't a hanger to keep them in, or if you believe the hanger may not sufficiently protect the helicopter, it will be ferried to a safer location. Even though Ft Rucker is the home of army aviation, we don't know the number of chinooks there, if they were deployed elsewhere, or ferried elsewhere for safe keeping.

Even if the helicopters were at the base, and available immediately post the storm, the helicopters would have to go to where the supplies are, and load the helicopter.

It also does little good to fly a helicopter full of supplies not knowing where to take it to, or whom will be taking care of handing it out. Scouting must be performed to see whom is in the most need of those supplies. Scouting the entire area affected takes considerable time. Then you have to ensure that the local officials on the ground have ample control of the situation to be leaving large amounts of food on the ground (again think Africa and UN food shipments).

Like I said, I was trained to expect no help for 5 days after a major event such as this. I once was told something that holds true: The seven P's

Prior Proper Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance.

This holds true for both the governmental response (which I am not saying is perfect, it's far from it. I am just arguing that expectations should be reasonable) and for the people who live where the disaster is. It is also said that luck and fortune favor the prepared. I cannot stress enough that you need to be prepared to survive on your own for a good period of time.

kinoons

09-03-2005, 04:50 AM

Incomplete, kinoons. <snip> any case, we're not talking about enough water for everybody to take a bath. We're talking about survival. Let's say you have pint bottles of water. That's eight per gallon, and roughly 4 times your 1000 gallon estimate for one Chinook. That's 4000 gallons times 8 pints per gallon, or 32,000 servings of water. Per helicopter.

http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/library/NU/00283.html

Average man requires 3 liters of water a day.

A liter of water weighs one kilogram (2.2 lbs) If the chinook can sling 26,000 lbs. a complete load of water is 11818 Liters. That’s 3939 daily requirements of water. One chinook can carry enough water for 4000 people for one day.

Except the human body requires more water when its hot and humid out. So now you're down to enough water for maybe 3500, maybe even 3000 people a day without any health affects.

Lets also not forget that you cant simply sling 26000 lbs of water, it has to be packaged, so you're going to loose some there.

There were 25,000 people in the superdome. It would take seven or eight fully loaded chinooks to meet just the water demands for just the superdome, and no where else.. (Again assuming you can sling a full load of water). And once rescuers show up you have to feed and care for them too, so the numbers go up. Depending where they are flying from, how they are being loaded, where the supplies are coming from, this all takes time.

In short, helicopters are not the way to supply large amounts of supplies to any large amount of people. It takes trucks and rail to be truly efficient.

Anheuser Busch had donated over 12,000 cases of water by Monday morning.

I'm guessing here, but a case of water is 24 twenty ounce bottles? 5760000 ounces, 720000 servings. It takes 100 ounces to meet the minimal three liter recommendation. Anheuser Busch donated about two days worth of water for the superdome, assuming the water went no where else. Not to anywhere in Mississippi, or elsewhere in Louisiana, but just to the Superdome. Was it great of them to donate the water, absolutely. Is it going to make a difference? Well to each person that gets one of those bottles, yes, but in the grand scheme of things it is just a drop in the preverbal bucket.

Banquet Bear

09-03-2005, 05:33 AM

http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/library/NU/00283.html

Average man requires 3 liters of water a day.

A liter of water weighs one kilogram (2.2 lbs) If the chinook can sling 26,000 lbs. a complete load of water is 11818 Liters. That’s 3939 daily requirements of water. One chinook can carry enough water for 4000 people for one day.

Except the human body requires more water when its hot and humid out. So now you're down to enough water for maybe 3500, maybe even 3000 people a day without any health affects.

Lets also not forget that you cant simply sling 26000 lbs of water, it has to be packaged, so you're going to loose some there.

There were 25,000 people in the superdome. It would take seven or eight fully loaded chinooks to meet just the water demands for just the superdome, and no where else.. (Again assuming you can sling a full load of water). And once rescuers show up you have to feed and care for them too, so the numbers go up. Depending where they are flying from, how they are being loaded, where the supplies are coming from, this all takes time.

In short, helicopters are not the way to supply large amounts of supplies to any large amount of people. It takes trucks and rail to be truly efficient.

I'm guessing here, but a case of water is 24 twenty ounce bottles? 5760000 ounces, 720000 servings. It takes 100 ounces to meet the minimal three liter recommendation. Anheuser Busch donated about two days worth of water for the superdome, assuming the water went no where else. Not to anywhere in Mississippi, or elsewhere in Louisiana, but just to the Superdome. Was it great of them to donate the water, absolutely. Is it going to make a difference? Well to each person that gets one of those bottles, yes, but in the grand scheme of things it is just a drop in the preverbal bucket.

...you see, I can't read this post without shaking my head and going..huh?

No water is better than some water? I can just imagine the heads of FEMA right now having this debate using your figures, rationalising things out... "well, it's only gonna be a drop in the bucket, so we'll wait a day or so... " is that what your trying to say?

BobLibDem

09-03-2005, 05:36 AM

It's going to take a lot of drops in the bucket so I'm very glad that Busch is donating the water. They could have more easily sat on their hands. Busch's response was better than Bush's.

kinoons

09-03-2005, 05:40 AM

...you see, I can't read this post without shaking my head and going..huh?

No water is better than some water? I can just imagine the heads of FEMA right now having this debate using your figures, rationalising things out... "well, it's only gonna be a drop in the bucket, so we'll wait a day or so... " is that what your trying to say?

Of course any water is better than no water, The point I am making over the entirety of this thread is that helicopters are fast, but they simply cannot provide enough supplies to make a major difference.

Trucks and rail can move massive amounts of assistance, but in this case those cannot reasonably be expected to be on scene for several days (I've always been taught upto 5 days)

I'm not here to defend everything the government is doing, and I'm sure that things should have gone much more smoothly than they have, but I don't totally fault them for it taking some time to get in the area with assistance. Those who believe we should have had everything there the next day are simply being unreasonable.

Banquet Bear

09-03-2005, 05:50 AM

Of course any water is better than no water, The point I am making over the entirety of this thread is that helicopters are fast, but they simply cannot provide enough supplies to make a major difference.

Trucks and rail can move massive amounts of assistance, but in this case those cannot reasonably be expected to be on scene for several days (I've always been taught upto 5 days)

I'm not here to defend everything the government is doing, and I'm sure that things should have gone much more smoothly than they have, but I don't totally fault them for it taking some time to get in the area with assistance. Those who believe we should have had everything there the next day are simply being unreasonable.

...but gosh, again, correct me if I'm wrong, but according to your calculations there was enough water donated to keep the Superdome going for two days. It would take seven to eight Chinooks to deliver that water. I'm sure I saw some Chinooks in the TV coverage, so I'm gonna assume there was some there. This doesn't look like a drop in the bucket-in fact it looks like a scandal.

kinoons

09-03-2005, 06:11 AM

...but gosh, again, correct me if I'm wrong, but according to your calculations there was enough water donated to keep the Superdome going for two days. It would take seven to eight Chinooks to deliver that water. I'm sure I saw some Chinooks in the TV coverage, so I'm gonna assume there was some there. This doesn't look like a drop in the bucket-in fact it looks like a scandal.

That assumes that those seven or eight chinooks are tasked to only take the donated water to the superdome, and screw everyone else. There was, still is, several (tens, if not hundreds) of thousands of miles affected by this hurricane. As I stated I don't know how many Chinooks are available for use, but I'm willing to bet its not more than 40 to 60 at best. You're suggesting we commit a full 10-20 percent of our available chinooks to one location. Yes that location is in need, but should it get 10-20 percent of our resources? Resources that can also be used to move sick people (24 litters). Do you suggest we take those 8 chinooks that could get several hundred sick or injured people out of the area to deliver water? Those are the choices that have to be made.

And again, this entire thread is about the government response in general. People have been asking why it is taking so long to get relief to the region and I'm trying to explain why it takes so long, and why helicopters are not a good substitute for trucks and trains.

monavis

09-03-2005, 06:54 AM

Banquet Bear

09-03-2005, 08:25 AM

That assumes that those seven or eight chinooks are tasked to only take the donated water to the superdome, and screw everyone else.

...lovely strawman there. If we fly water into the Superdome, we screw everybody else.

There was, still is, several (tens, if not hundreds) of thousands of miles affected by this hurricane.

Lets get them water too!

As I stated I don't know how many Chinooks are available for use, but I'm willing to bet its not more than 40 to 60 at best. You're suggesting we commit a full 10-20 percent of our available chinooks to one location.

I suggested bupkis. You spent a lot of time coming up with figures that supposedly showed that dropping water to the Superdome would have been "a drop in the bucket." What you actually showed was that it would be quite easy and indeed possible to provide two days supply of water to the Superdome in only eight airdrops. I only saw one chinook on TV, you seem to think there could be up to fourty Chinooks there. If you think that commiting 10 to 20 percent would be too much, how about committing only one? Eight airdrops in a day, water needs taken care of for the Superdome-assuming the calculations you made are correct, of course...

Yes that location is in need, but should it get 10-20 percent of our resources?

I suppose it depends on how important you think it is to get water to 25000 people. Of course, you could only use one helicopter, which would only be 2.5% of the resources, but we are only speaking hypothetically anyway.

Resources that can also be used to move sick people (24 litters). Do you suggest we take those 8 chinooks that could get several hundred sick or injured people out of the area to deliver water? Those are the choices that have to be made.

Again I'm suggesting nothing. Your numbers suggest a lot, which is why I commented on your post. Do I think that choices need to be made? Absolutely. And I'm sure, in the fullness of time those choices will be closely scrutinied. But two days of water for 25000 people is not a drop in the bucket, by any stretch of the imagination.

And again, this entire thread is about the government response in general. People have been asking why it is taking so long to get relief to the region and I'm trying to explain why it takes so long, and why helicopters are not a good substitute for trucks and trains.

Far from showing why it takes so long to get relief to the region, you actually show how easy it to screw it up with the wrong mindset. Logistics is a bugger of a game, your absolutely right there. Trucks and trains are easily the most efficent way of getting supplies to where they are needed-again, can't fault your arguement their either. An army without a supply chain is an army that is doomed to failure.

But there comes a time where sometimes, efficiency needs to make way for speed. A clock starts ticking once a natural disaster like this happens. Every hour, another death. Decisions need to made quickly in relation to priority. Having experienced leaders making those quick decisions is an important, absolute nessecity as well.

From over this end of the pond, the entire relief effort looks like a bureaucracy gone completely stark raving mad. Apparently, Civil Defense is run by The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) , led by Michael Chertoff, who has no experience in large-scale disaster relief. FEMA, is a branch of the DHS, who formerly was its own department dedicated to disaster mitigation and relief, is led by Michael Brown, another gentleman with no disaster experience. Apparently National Guards can only be deployed on the request of the Govenor or the Mayor, but not at the direction of someone else, the Mayor of New Orleans is directing police priorities, and FEMA and the governor directing everything else. It doesn't appear that anybody has verall control of the relief operation, and it becomes clear that absolutely none of the key players have the experience needed to cope. Martial law has been declared...oh no it hasn't!!! I think that Blackadder said it best to Baldrick...

Blackadder: Yes that's right, you see there was a tiny flaw in the plan.

George: What was that sir?

Blackadder: It was bollocks.

kinoons, its very easy to argue why something can't be done. I suspect thats what went on during the early days of the disaster at FEMA HQ. "Helicopters to airdrop water to the Superdome? Can't be done. Why not? Well, here a ten different reasons, and the figures to go with it. Its not worth it, its just a drop in the bucket, and we can use those helicopters to do something else anyway... " An experienced Director may have made a different call. Your posts, if your figures are correct, show that an airdrop was entirely possible, using the hypothetical conditions we arbitarily imposed on our scenerio.

Biggirl

09-03-2005, 08:45 AM

I cannot express the anger that I'm feeling.
Where the Red Cross has been (http://www.redcross.org/faq/0,1096,0_682_4524,00.html#4524)

Acess to New Orleans is controlled by the National Guard and local authorities and while we are in constant contact with them, we simply cannot enter New Orleans against their orders.

The state Homeland Security Department had requested--and continues to request--that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans following the hurricane. Our presence would keep people from evacuating and encourage others to come into the city.

The Red Cross has been meeting the needs of thousands of New Orleans residents in some 90 shelters throughout the state of Louisiana and elsewhere since before landfall. All told, the Red Cross is today operating 149 shelters for almost 93,000 residents.

The Red Cross shares the nation’s anguish over the worsening situation inside the city. We will continue to work under the direction of the military, state and local authorities and to focus all our efforts on our lifesaving mission of feeding and sheltering.

The Red Cross does not conduct search and rescue operations. We are an organization of civilian volunteers and cannot get relief aid into any location until the local authorities say it is safe and provide us with security and access.

The original plan was to evacuate all the residents of New Orleans to safe places outside the city. With the hurricane bearing down, the city government decided to open a shelter of last resort in the Superdome downtown. We applaud this decision and believe it saved a significant number of lives.

As the remaining people are evacuated from New Orleans, the most appropriate role for the Red Cross is to provide a safe place for people to stay and to see that their emergency needs are met. We are fully staffed and equipped to handle these individuals once they are evacuated.

Motherfuck this President has a lot to answer for.

Biggirl

09-03-2005, 08:50 AM

Anyone who is so politically blinded that they can defend the President and his administration in this complete and total lethal fuck up is a willful moron.

Banquet Bear

09-03-2005, 09:06 AM

I cannot express the anger that I'm feeling.
Where the Red Cross has been (http://www.redcross.org/faq/0,1096,0_682_4524,00.html#4524)

Motherfuck this President has a lot to answer for.

...Good Lord...

:: blinks ::

Well, that answers a few more questions, I guess. Ideaology over relief. The Red Cross has food, but aren't allowed in to distribute it. People in New Orleans need food, but can't get out to get it. This is truly the craziest disaster relief operation I have seen in my lifetime. Can somebody honestly tell me, who is making these decisions? Does the Mayor of New Orleans know that the Red Cross aren't allowed access to the city? Stark Raving Mad indeed...

Scylla

09-03-2005, 09:45 AM

Anyone who is so politically blinded that they can defend the President and his administration in this complete and total lethal fuck up is a willful moron.

This Nagin guy is the Mayor of NOLA. We have the Governor, and State Homeland Security Rep.

It would seem to me that these are the guys making the decisions resulting in this mess.

So, why exactly are you blaming the Pres and what for?

Squink

09-03-2005, 09:52 AM

Can somebody honestly tell me, who is making these decisions?It appears to be FEMA.
Articles from Northern Command, almost invariably contain a phrase about waiting to respond to FEMA's requests:Meanwhile, in Colorado Springs, Colo., NORTHCOM's Joint Operations Center remains on 24-hour duty to expedite any additional requests for help from FEMA representatives, officials said. Military Providing Full-Scale Response to Hurricane Relief Effort (http://www.news.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=19847) The U.S. Navy's Military Sealift Command hospital ship USNS Comfort (T-AH 20), based here, was activated Aug. 31 in support of Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) efforts to provide medical support in the wake of Hurricane Katrina. Hospital Ship Comfort to Support FEMA Hurricane Relief Efforts (http://www.news.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=19867)
The Guard expresses similar frustrations: "We could have had people on the road Tuesday," Cutler said. "We have to wait and respond to their need."Congress Likely to Probe Guard Delay (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050903/ap_on_re_us/katrina_national_guard)

While it's possible that some other government agency is gumming up the works with respect to NGO's, FEMA's iron fist around the military response makes that seem (IMHO) unlikely.

Biggirl

09-03-2005, 09:52 AM

The mayor is begging for troops. Either to be given the authority to use them or for the president to use his authority to use them. Isn't that what the president is supposed to do? How about keeping the Red Cross out of NO because the administration didn't want the victims to feel too comfortable. That's not his fault, either?

But you're right. The blame shouldn't fall on the president's shoulders. It should fall directly on all who continue to fellate this ideological empty sack of a president.

Bricker

09-03-2005, 10:08 AM

Squink

09-03-2005, 10:18 AM

OK.

Can anyone cite a previous disaster relief -- or any other similar effort -- that spun up to speed more quickly than this?So quickly you forget 9/11.

squeegee

09-03-2005, 10:20 AM

Can anyone cite a previous disaster relief -- or any other similar effort -- that spun up to speed more quickly than this?I'll try to dig up something more substantive, but there's this (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0509/02/ltm.01.html)S. O'BRIEN: FEMA has been on the ground for four days, going into the fifth day. Why no massive airdrop of food and water? In Banda Aceh, in Indonesia, they got food dropped two days after the tsunami struck

squeegee

09-03-2005, 10:24 AM

Since we're on the topic, this (http://business.bostonherald.com/businessNews/view.bg?articleid=100857) almost deserves it's own thread. But there's already so many.Brown pushed from last job: Horse group: FEMA chief had to be `asked to resign'

The federal official in charge of the bungled New Orleans rescue was fired from his last private-sector job overseeing horse shows.

And before joining the Federal Emergency Management Agency as a deputy director in 2001, GOP activist Mike Brown had no significant experience that would have qualified him for the position.

The Oklahoman got the job through an old college friend who at the time was heading up FEMA.

Biggirl

09-03-2005, 10:27 AM

monstro

09-03-2005, 10:30 AM

Twin

09-03-2005, 11:02 AM

Certainly quicker than negative years since this administration ignored FEMA and the Army Corp of Engineers and cut funding to the levees. (http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topics/article.asp?cu_no=2&item_no=51205&version=1&template_id=43&parent_id=19)

I won't say why funding was diverted. I don't want to get slapped.This old chestnut has been soundly defeated (http://michellemalkin.com/archives/003447.htm). Try to keep up.
Also, you may want to read here (http://www.nola.com/newsflash/louisiana/index.ssf?base/news-18/1125239940201382.xml&storylist=louisiana) why the mandatory evacuation of the city was ordered. Here is the key sentence:

Gov. Kathleen Blanco, standing beside the mayor at a news conference, said President Bush called and personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation for the low-lying city, which is prone to flooding.

So are you ready to praise President Bush and place some of the blame on who deserves it? I got a better idea! Instead of playing the blame game, let's do what we can to help out. Or, I guess you could just bitch about it on a meaningless message board. Whatever works for you. :rolleyes:

Scylla

09-03-2005, 11:06 AM

The mayor is begging for troops. Either to be given the authority to use them or for the president to use his authority to use them.

The first I heard from Nagin was Wenesday night. He has athority and the governor has athority. It is the Mayor's city and the Governor's State.

My asessment of the situation is that the local and state government was worthless. Worse than worthless. They sent people to the convention center without support. They sent people to the Superdome as a shelter of last resort at the last minute without having made any plans to keep order and feed them.

I heard no direction from local government over the radio.

I think the Federal reaction has been slow. I think it looks slower because in most emergencies State and local government fills the breach while larger efforts ramp up.

In this case, there was a total failure at the state and local level.

Isn't that what the president is supposed to do? How about keeping the Red Cross out of NO because the administration didn't want the victims to feel too comfortable. That's not his fault, either?

The administration didn't want them to feel to comfortable? That's not what your cite says. What an odious lie.

from your cite: "Acess to New Orleans is controlled by the National Guard and local authorities....The state Homeland Security Department had requested--and continues to request--that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans following the hurricane. Our presence would keep people from evacuating and encourage others to come into the... "

Looks like a local decision. To me, it looks like the correct one.

But you're right. The blame shouldn't fall on the president's shoulders. It should fall directly on all who continue to fellate this ideological empty sack of a president.

I like you Biggirl but I find your sentiments to be disgusting. Your trivializing the tragedy, and it's reprehensible the way you are attempting to use this tragedy to spawn a partisan political attack.

"fellate this ideological empty sack of a President?"

If that's your action, you can safely be dismissed as just another whack job.

Biggirl

09-03-2005, 11:06 AM

This old chestnut has been soundly defeated (http://michellemalkin.com/archives/003447.htm). Try to keep up.

A yes, a pretty girl with a blog. I'm convinced. Soundly defeated. Another willing moron to add to the list.
Also, you may want to

wring

09-03-2005, 11:09 AM

calling for an evacuation w/o having a plan in place to accomplish said evacuation is a sign of the fucking depth of the problem some of us are talking about. try to keep up.

Rick

09-03-2005, 11:14 AM

Twin

09-03-2005, 11:22 AM

A yes, a pretty girl with a blog. I'm convinced. Soundly defeated. Another willing moron to add to the list.That's right. A pretty girl with a blog. With links to the Chicago Tribune and other reptuable news cites. Why don't you just take the time and read the cites I provided. There have been failures on all levels, but to solely blame Bush for this is short-sighted and smacks of using a tragedy to make a political point.

calling for an evacuation w/o having a plan in place to accomplish said evacuation is a sign of the fucking depth of the problem some of us are talking about. try to keep up.Don't be so hard on the mayor. He should have had these plans, but he was caught flat-footed. It really shouldn't have been a surprise that a hurricane may someday come, and there should be an evacuation plan. Heck, we have all seen pictures of the hundreds of buses worthlessly floating in water. But maybe he can take this as a lesson learned.

You do mean him and not the president, right?

wring

09-03-2005, 11:31 AM

you mentioned Bush's call for evacuation as something positive. I'm saying some one in power calling for an evacuation when there is no practical plan in place to accomplish it(as in how do we move people who cannot move themselves) evokes Marie Antoinette's "let them eat cake" and as such is an example of the depth of the lack of planning which was the fucking problem. so, no, I would not praise Bush for calling for an evacuation w/o also calling for an immediate call for the resources to accomplish it.

monstro

09-03-2005, 11:31 AM

That's right. A pretty girl with a blog. With links to the Chicago Tribune and other reptuable news cites. Why don't you just take the time and read the cites I provided. There have been failures on all levels, but to solely blame Bush for this is short-sighted and smacks of using a tragedy to make a political point.

Don't be so hard on the mayor. He should have had these plans, but he was caught flat-footed. It really shouldn't have been a surprise that a hurricane may someday come, and there should be an evacuation plan. Heck, we have all seen pictures of the hundreds of buses worthlessly floating in water. But maybe he can take this as a lesson learned.

You do mean him and not the president, right?

There's ENOUGH blame to go around. I repeat: ENOUGH BLAME.

The Mayor is at fault.

The head of FEMA is at fault.

The President is at fault.

Shiiiit! It's like people are either blaming the prez or they blaming the mayor...like there's no such thing as multiple culprits or levels of accountibility. Like we have to take sides with SOMEONE to the villification the OTHER.

The GOVERNMENT fucked up. At all levels and divisions. Can we at least come to an agreement over this?

Hippy Hollow

09-03-2005, 11:36 AM

yeah, monstro.

Back to my OP:
What I am infuriated by is the seeming lack of coordination of governmental agencies - from the NO police to the mayor's office to the state level, and even the federal response....

It seems that NOBODY is in charge of the evacuation or rescue efforts. I've seen Harry Connick, Jr. in the streets trying to help people but not representatives of elected officials responsible for law and order in the city. I certainly understand that I'm not necessarily seeing everything, but I am perplexed that after 9/11 and the heightened security alert, this situation is turning into a demonstration of how flat-footed the response has been to date....

I am simply slack-jawed in horror about what is not being done on behalf of poor, mostly Black citizens of this nation. The scene in New Orleans resembles a third-world country because the governmental response has been third-rate.

Is anyone else as disappointed, sickened, and angered as I am at the leadership involved?

Funny, that some people assume that I have pardoned the mayor and governor from culpability... Nope.

duffer

09-03-2005, 12:25 PM

If it were Bricker locked in the Superdome for almost a week, or stuck on a roof waving fruitlessly at helicopter after helicopter, or carrying a listless baby across sewage waters, we wouldn't see you taking the position that you have. Neither would duffer. Why is it the rest of us can see how fucked-up our response to this has been and ya'll can't? I just don't get it.

How many times have I got to tell you this? I have been through something similar to this. Ah, fuck it, I've said it so often once more won't get it through your head. You go ahead and think I and Bricker are cheering the death of poor blacks. There's no changing your mind.

As far as supplies being sent the next day to the Tsunami victims, that's true. Supplies were sent the next day, but not received. It took more than a day before that stuff actually got to people.

Biggirl

09-03-2005, 12:27 PM

A yes, a pretty girl with a blog. I'm convinced. Soundly defeated. Another willing moron to add to the list.
Also, you may want to

Whoa, what's that all about? That's what you get when you try to post while your husband is yelling at you to hurry up.

The government response to Katrina was terrible, incompetent and lethal. This admininstration had time to plot and plan. Instead they instructed the Red Cross not to go in because they didn't want people feeling too comfortable in there. And anyone-- this includes the very Righteous Scylla-- who feels this is defensible is willfully being a moron. I hope I am clear as to what I mean.

Merijeek

09-03-2005, 12:30 PM

You're the politician here. I have missing friends in New Orleans. You're the one talking about making political hay. I'm talking about getting water to dying people.

You know, if you agree that it was all either Clinton or Kerry's fault the little retard will just fuck off and go jerk off in a corner, right?

Just thought I'd help. Don't feed him. It's not like any nuggets will get through that concrete-stuff cranium.

-Joe

Cervaise

09-03-2005, 12:36 PM

We have the Governor, and State Homeland Security Rep.Who asked for federal attention and assistance all the way back on August Fucking Twenty Eight (http://americablog.blogspot.com/govla.jpg).

Merijeek

09-03-2005, 12:45 PM

Fort Rucker, Alabama (http://www-rucker.army.mil/helicopters/chinook.html), the home of all Army helicopter training, and a mere hop from the Gulf Coast.

I know we all love anecdotal evidence, but the ANG stationed in Meridian, MS usually has 6-8 Chinooks parked on their pads. I see them almost every time I drive along I-20 into Meridian.

For those not paying attention, Meridian is also in Mississippi. Wild guess I'd say...250 miles to N.O.

-Joe

pokey

09-03-2005, 12:49 PM

I like you Biggirl but I find your sentiments to be disgusting.
You're the one that said
I also think the people have sucked. The victims. There is far too much opportunism and looting. There is too much "help me, help me."
Your sentiments disgust me. You think humanity should not need police, or doors, or locks, or water or a place to sleep. You think people should be able to cope with a complete breakdown of the social order and that the criminals you lock your doors against should take a day off in that case. You think if you were at the superdome you'd be organizing a recycling campaign or something. You think you are above victims who have been through hell and finally found a place to go, only to find it's a dead end? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm sure you'd be really useful and productive.

You think if, during 9/11 all the cops houses had been destroyed and they were outnumbered and the TVs were showing Tommy Lee Goes to College instead of wall-to-wall coverage, there wouldn't have been more crime and more "help me help me?"

What a fat lot of nerve you have to say who should be mad at what. You have no perspective. You live in a dream world.

Dewey Cheatem Undhow

09-03-2005, 12:52 PM

I absolutely goddamn cannot fucking believe anyone is making an even tepid defense of the Bush administration here. If he has any decency at all, he'll resign when the crisis ends. There's no ideological conflict here -- this is strictly about governmental competence in executing one its basic functions.

And I say this as a solid conservative. My credentials in this regard are, I believe, well-established on these boards. I am ashamed (but not entirely surprised) that some of my ideological brethren find it possible post-Katrina to continue supporting this White House.

wring

09-03-2005, 01:11 PM

wow.

Gorsnak

09-03-2005, 01:13 PM

I absolutely goddamn cannot fucking believe anyone is making an even tepid defense of the Bush administration here.
I'll make a tepid defense of the Bush Administration. I think that state and local governments in this case have fucked up even worse than the federal government. That tepid enough for you?

It really looks like completely inadequate contingency planning. If, as seems to be the case, the possiblity of this worst-case scenario was well known, the New Orleans and Louisiana government should have had detailed plans for how to maintain order, evacuate survivors, and deliver emergency water, foodstuffs, and medicines. Those plans should have been put into execution the moment it became apparent a Cat 5 storm was bearing down on the Gulf coast. There should have been a couple thousand of National Guardsmen ready to roll the moment the storm passed and movement became possible with thousands more on alert for immediate call-up, and the logistical underpinnings of the evacuation/aid delivery should have been in place (i.e., required trucks and buses commandeered, inland supply depots being stocked, etc). Still would have been a monumental disaster, but the lack of coordination and above all the failure to maintain order is simply unforgiveable. But it lies most heavily on the heads of local officials.

TVeblen

09-03-2005, 01:16 PM

Everyone whining about how the administration is dragging its feet, or should be doing something faster and better... when, in the history of the fucking world, has an effort this size actually been done any quicker?

What the....? This is unworthy of you, Bricker. Asserting catastrophe response has never been done any better is hardly an answer. Bush's administration expended tremendous political and actual capital, promising to do exactly that.

Remember the hoopla and fund diversion for Homeland Security? You know, that new department of the Federal government created by Bush? It's the one charged with analzying risks to country, then preparing defensive strategies and responses in cases of catastrophic events. Gee, so we have a significant city--oil, shipping, business, large population base--sited below sea level, smack dab on a river delta. It's just kinda, I dunno, common sense, that all those factors should have been considered in formation of any disaster plan, no matter the cause of the catastrophe. Gosh, severe flooding just might happen if the city's levy system was broken somehow! Might be a good idea to figure out what to do in advance if most of the roads are under water.

Bush's highly touted promise of national prepardedness failed, spectacularly. This isn't about politics. It's about a specific expensive, much-ballyhooed governmental commitment that failed. Bush-the-politician isn't the point. He's just another in a long line. The point is that a major city was largely wiped out but, contrary to repeated assurances, few effective systems were in place to handle it.

Updike

09-03-2005, 01:27 PM

monstro

09-03-2005, 01:31 PM

monstro

09-03-2005, 01:47 PM

Asserting catastrophe response has never been done any better is hardly an answer.

And not to mention, it's a lie (oops, I mean an error).

South Florida was demolished after Hurricane Andrew in '92, and there was a delay in getting aid down here because people had assumed things weren't so bad. But once the cameras showed the devastation on national TV, aid rushed in.

America had four days worth of news coverage on this before, it seems, FEMA started responding. The Gulf Coast might have well been on the freakin' moon. You could blame the relative geographic isolation of south Florida (being on the end of a long peninsula) for the '92 gaff. But the Gulf Coast isn't isolated from anyone. We all saw the devastation from the get-go. We knew it was coming, dammit.

It's really unexcusable.

Dewey Cheatem Undhow

09-03-2005, 02:02 PM

I'll make a tepid defense of the Bush Administration. I think that state and local governments in this case have fucked up even worse than the federal government. That tepid enough for you? Well, I don't really consider that a defense, so I'm OK with it.

But this whole thing makes one wonder why the fuck our tax dollars have been funding FEMA all these years if such an immensely destructive disaster is considered principally a state and local matter.

Furthermore, I don't hold the administration responsible for much of anything in the immediate aftermath of the storm. It's the enormous fuckups in the last five days that engender my wrath.

My plan for restoring power to New Orleans: we hook up generators to Teddy Roosevelt's grave, and harness the tremendous spinning therein. Teddy didn't fuck around during the 1904 San Fransico earthquake, and neither should Bush today. Every goddamn bus in a ten-state area should have been commandeered on Tuesday and taken to New Orleans, damn the legalities, and let anyone who's upset by that bring a lawsuit. Ditto for every site in a ten-state area, large or small, capable of handling refugees. There are church camps all over east Texas -- why aren't they being used?

I say this with absolute seriousness: I disagree with John Kerry on just about everything, but if Katrina had hit last year, I would have voted for him. Incompetence of this magnitude just cannot be rewarded.

wring

09-03-2005, 02:06 PM

monstro- that quote was Veb , not me. (clarification only)

monstro

09-03-2005, 02:12 PM

:smack:

Dewey Cheatem Undhow

09-03-2005, 02:17 PM

If Bush were to resign, we'd have President Cheney. Be careful what you wish for.They should both resign, along with every cabinet secretary whose job has anything to do with disaster response. A Denny Hastert presidency would not be terrible.

There was a time when an enormous demonstration of incompetence (rather than Nixon-like corruption) would yield resignations at the top of an administration. I'm curious: has this happened in modern times, or am I just wishing for the dignity of a bygone age?

Gorsnak

09-03-2005, 02:21 PM

But this whole thing makes one wonder why the fuck our tax dollars have been funding FEMA all these years if such an immensely destructive disaster is considered principally a state and local matter.
I don't think we're in any substantial disagreement here. I'm not particularly familiar with the structure of your relevant government agencies here, so keep that in mind when reading my comments. I was under the impression that FEMA was primarily intended as a means of delivering adequate funding to allow a hard-hit locale to rebuild and recover after the fact, but that emergency response during the actual crisis was a more local thing. Perhaps I'm mistaken.

And I agree that there's been a complete failure to simply take the required resources and put them to use. Richest nation in the world, you are. The resources are there. Waltz into nearby bottling plants and tell them you want all the bottled water they have, now, and turn the bottling machines on 24/7 until further notice. Waltz into the trucking company and tell them to get some trucks over to the bottling plant post haste. Etc. Adequate contingency planning would have had everyone put on notice before the storm made landfall that they might be required to contribute their services, and to be ready in case they were.

What really, really blows my mind, though, is the failure to get Guardsmen in place soon enough to prevent the complete collapse of social order. The single greatest responsibility of government, and they completely blew it. This is the really, truly unforgiveable aspect of the affair in my opinion.

Bricker

09-03-2005, 03:27 PM

There's ENOUGH blame to go around. I repeat: ENOUGH BLAME.

The Mayor is at fault.

The head of FEMA is at fault.

The President is at fault.

Shiiiit! It's like people are either blaming the prez or they blaming the mayor...like there's no such thing as multiple culprits or levels of accountibility. Like we have to take sides with SOMEONE to the villification the OTHER.

The GOVERNMENT fucked up. At all levels and divisions. Can we at least come to an agreement over this?

Yes.

I absolutely agree with this.

If my post was taken as an effort to say that the federal response was flawless, believe me, that's not my point at all.

I do think that those are saying, "Hey, it's not brain surgery!" are off base. It IS highly complicated. Still, the fact is we hire people to those positions expecting them to solve highly complicated problems.

My ire above was raised becase there seemed to be a sense of, "It's so easy, and they fucked it up!"

Yes, they fucked it up. But no, it's not easy.

Sampiro

09-03-2005, 03:58 PM

I'm withholding blame until the definitive Congressional investigations and Michael Moore documentary have been released.

TVeblen

09-03-2005, 04:17 PM

I do think that those are saying, "Hey, it's not brain surgery!" are off base. It IS highly complicated. Still, the fact is we hire people to those positions expecting them to solve highly complicated problems.

My ire above was raised becase there seemed to be a sense of, "It's so easy, and they fucked it up!"

Yes, they fucked it up. But no, it's not easy.

Anybody who thinks coordinating more than two people, much less agencies, at a time is easy must be either deluded or woefully inexperienced, IMO. I don't think the complexity of the problem was ever the issue. 'Teaching the elephant to dance' doesn't just apply to businesses. Any bureaucracy will move at glacial pace if given half a chance.

The problem is that disaster preparedness was made an overriding national priority years ago. A new federal department was created specifically to streamline and coordinate efforts to identify vulnerabilities and coordinate resources throughout all levels of government--and beyond--in response to catastrophes. I don't think people are underestimating the horrendous complexities involved; they're just pissed as hell and appalled that the systems created turned out to be so blatantly, lethally inadequate.

It's impossible not to compare disaster response systems to the aftermath of 9/11. Effective contingencies should have been in place--and weren't. Flubs, errors and miscommunications would be expected. Those happen even without disasters. The nearly complete lack of effective coordination is a helluva lot more serious.

New Orleans was the test case for the Bush administration's lean, mean and streamlined govermental apparatus to handle domestic disasters. It failed, spectacularly. Common sense prevention and coordination weren't better after all that expense, brouhaha and trumpeted public assurances. If anything, they were more inept. Politics, and government for that matter, are mental constructs based on common belief. I believe the Bush administration failed, in the worst possible way, to provide the basic planning, coordination and emergency response it taxed citizens to create and that they believed existed in some vestigally improved form.

Frankenstein Monster

09-03-2005, 05:21 PM

New Orleans was the test case for the Bush administration's lean, mean and streamlined govermental apparatus to handle domestic disasters. It failed, spectacularly. Common sense prevention and coordination weren't better after all that expense, brouhaha and trumpeted public assurances. If anything, they were more inept.
Strong words, but still not strong enough to describe the ineptness of stuff like this:
Just to give you a sense of just how badly FEMA has f*cked up. (http://securingamerica.com/ccn/node/357)
On Wednesday morning a group of approximately 1,000 citizens pulling 500 boats left the Acadiana Mall in Lafayette in the early morning and headed to New Orleans with a police escort from the Jefferson Parish Sheriff's Department. The flotillia of trucks pulling boats stretched over FIVE miles. This citizen rescue group was organized by La. State Senator, Nick Gautreaux from Vermilion Parish. The group was comprised of experienced boaters, licensed fishermen and hunters, people who have spent their entire adult life and teenage years on the waterways of Louisiana.

...The DWF agent did not want to hear this and ordered them home -- ALL FIVE HUNDRED BOATS.

...However, two friends were pulling a smaller 15ft alumaweld with a 25 hp. The DWF agents let them through to proceed to the rescue operation launch site.

...They were kept there for approximately 3 hours. During that time they observed a large number of DWF agents doing absolutely nothing. Why? Because FEMA would not let them HELP! After three hours had passed they were told that they were not needed and should go home. They complied with the DWF's orders and turned around and went home to Lafayette.

Watching CNN later that night, there was a telephone interview with a Nurse trapped in Charity Hospital in New Orleans. She said that there were over 1,000 people trapped inside of the hospital and that the doctors and nurses had zero medical supplies, no diesel to run the generators and that only three people had been rescued from the hospital since the Hurricane hit!

I can't come up with one logical reason why the DWF sent this large group of 500 boats/1000 men home when we surely could have rescued most, if not all, of the people trapped in Charity Hospital. Further, we had the means to immediately transport these people to hospitals in Southwest Louisiana.

monstro

09-03-2005, 05:30 PM

The more I hear these stories, the more I start believing that some authorities actually wanted people to die.

It's starting to look like the thugs and rapists aren't the only bad apples.

Updike

09-03-2005, 05:45 PM

The more I hear these stories, the more I start believing that some authorities actually wanted people to die.

Why would "some authorities" want people to die? Seriously, what do you think the motivation would be for something like that?

monstro

09-03-2005, 05:52 PM

Why would "some authorities" want people to die? Seriously, what do you think the motivation would be for something like that?

What's your explanation for why someone would turn away FIVE MILES of skilled help? I can't think of an innocent explanation.

Can you?

Ogre

09-03-2005, 05:54 PM

Rather than digging for motives, Updike, how about you just analyze the above situation for what it is? What about it says anything to you other than "gross, insupportable incompetence," or "lax and uncaring?"

Squink

09-03-2005, 05:54 PM

Scales fall from Landrieu's eyes: (http://www.newschannel6.tv/news/default.asp?mode=shownews&id=8695) U.S. Senator Mary Landrieu, D-La. Sep 3, 2005
“I understand that the U.S. Forest Service had water-tanker aircraft available to help douse the fires raging on our riverfront, but FEMA has yet to accept the aid. When Amtrak offered trains to evacuate significant numbers of victims – far more efficiently than buses – FEMA again dragged its feet. Offers of medicine, communications equipment and other desperately needed items continue to flow in, only to be ignored by the agency.

“But perhaps the greatest disappointment stands at the breached 17th Street levee. Touring this critical site yesterday with the President, I saw what I believed to be a real and significant effort to get a handle on a major cause of this catastrophe. Flying over this critical spot again this morning, less than 24 hours later, it became apparent that yesterday we witnessed a hastily prepared stage set for a Presidential photo opportunity; and the desperately needed resources we saw were this morning reduced to a single, lonely piece of equipment

Frank

09-03-2005, 05:56 PM

The GOVERNMENT fucked up. At all levels and divisions. Can we at least come to an agreement over this?
Works for me.

Updike

09-03-2005, 06:12 PM

What's your explanation for why someone would turn away FIVE MILES of skilled help? I can't think of an innocent explanation.

Can you?

Look, the people who are most immediately responsible are Mayor Nagin and Governor Blanco. And then, yes, President Bush. Why would any of them want people to die? It doesn't make any sense.

Your accusations are vile.

wring

09-03-2005, 06:23 PM

Your accusations are vile.
I'll save the word vile for folks like those turning away trained help leaving people to die, for example.

Rick

09-03-2005, 06:24 PM

Yes.

I absolutely agree with this.

If my post was taken as an effort to say that the federal response was flawless, believe me, that's not my point at all.

I do think that those are saying, "Hey, it's not brain surgery!" are off base. It IS highly complicated. Still, the fact is we hire people to those positions expecting them to solve highly complicated problems.

My ire above was raised becase there seemed to be a sense of, "It's so easy, and they fucked it up!"

Yes, they fucked it up. But no, it's not easy.
Since I am the one who made the it's not brain surgery comment over here (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=333139) let me answer.
The big picture is easy. You have X number of people to move / shelter. They need food, water, and a place to shit. You need to provide security for them. The hard part comes next. You have to take these simple items and turn it into a functional operational plan. This is the hard part. There are 6 jillion details that need attention.
The reason I made the not brain surgery comment is not becasue only 5.99 jillion of those very important details got skipped, but rather because the simple easy things that anyone who has 3 functional brain cells would have thought of, wern't. It's not a case of they did not have quite enough water at the Superdome becasue they got more people then they expected. They didn't have any on hand.
If it was just details that got overlooked, I would not be posting, because I agree that it is highly complex dealing with the details. I am posting because it appears that the planning never got to the details stage, the mayor and gov just thought that everything would be OK.
Also FEMA is not looking too good based on the last couple of links in this thread.

Shayna

09-03-2005, 06:25 PM

Shameful. Every fucking bit of this, at all levels, is utterly shameful and downright criminal. That jackass Bush is painfully incompetent to run this country and thousands of people are dying because of it. FEMA and DHS are HIS to oversee and command. The top people at those agencies are HIS appointees. The Mayor and Governor should have done more, absolutely. But Bush COULD have done more and fucking DIDN'T! He posed for photo ops, went on morning talk shows with his nasty smirk and gave us all the same fucking, condescending lip service he's given us for 5 fucking years.

And now I learn the true ramifications if his self-serving fly-by -- even more people died! Why? Because "All aircraft were grounded for two hours during Bush's fly-by over the area, halting the evacuation at the hospital until the next day. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=332842)" (Post #7) How many people probably passed out from hunger and died of starvation and thirst or drowned in their attics during those precious hours wasted with no aerial rescue so that that egomaniac could look out from his ivory tower?

I fucking HATE that man.

HATE!

Updike

09-03-2005, 06:27 PM

I'll save the word vile for folks like those turning away trained help leaving people to die, for example.

Do you include, as vile, those who have shot at rescuers in your example?

Rick

09-03-2005, 06:30 PM

The reason I made the not brain surgery comment is not becasue only 5.99 jillion of those very important details got skipped
Actually I did some editiing here, and met to write that only 5.99 jillion of those details got handled, but it reads pretty good the way it came out. :D

wring

09-03-2005, 06:33 PM

Updike

09-03-2005, 06:42 PM

I said for an example. Specific answer - depends - shooting to harm? yes. Shooting as an attempt to signal for help? not so much.
you gonna agree that turning AWAY help at that time leaving people to die is vile?

I'm still waiting for monstro or anyone else to provide evidence that the authorities, at any level, WANTED people to die.

The Highwayman

09-03-2005, 06:44 PM

Yes, let's agree that the government fucked up. But where does the buck stop? Who is the highest power in the land in dealing with these things? Who ultimately bears responsibility for the multiple federal fuck-ups?

The best republican red-herring (and this one is used over and over again) is what' would <insert democrat> have done? "What would Gore have done on 9/11?" is an example. Now the best defense that we hear is "What would Kerry have done in the New Orleans situation?" The response might be better or worse, I would argue it would be better but that would be another post.

NEWSFLASH ASSHOLES! GEORGE BUSH IS PRESIDENT! THE BUCK STOPS WITH HIM. If everything goes well for the country, like the stock market goes up or the jobs report is good, Georgie points to his tax cuts and claims responsibility. When things go good, the millions of people really responsible are never cheered and dipshit takes responsibility. BUT WHAT ABOUT WHEN THINGS GO WRONG? Then it's everyone else's fault but his.

Don't you guys get tired of defending this chickenshit chickenhawk? Don't you find your red herrings a lame arguing point? It's akin to "if a brick dropped from the sky and hit you on the head..." They are just hypos and not real facts that we intelligent people are supposed to argue from. I mean, your man is president. He bears the ultimate responsibility whether things go right or not. So do something our president won't and MAN THE FUCK UP.

wring

09-03-2005, 07:05 PM

I'm still waiting for monstro or anyone else to provide evidence that the authorities, at any level, WANTED people to die.
so you won't answer my question. I don't know why the officials refused the help. I don't know they wanted people to die- however it seems fucking likely their actions caused deaths. That, certainly to me is more important, and more vile than monstro's post.

Der Trihs

09-03-2005, 07:07 PM

I'm still waiting for monstro or anyone else to provide evidence that the authorities, at any level, WANTED people to die.
How about the results of his actions ? Either he wants to kill as many people as possible and is evil, or he doesn't and is an utter incompetent. Hell, his entire presidency is a litany of nastiness; I find it hard to blame all of it on incompetence instead of malice.

As far as motive is concerned, frankly he's always been an arrogant, uncaring, sadistic bastard. I find it perfectly believable that he would condemn thousands to death for the sheer fun of it. No, I don't have any proof, but I'd hardly expect him to write a book titled Killing is Fun ! Elect Me.

Beware of Doug

09-03-2005, 07:10 PM

I'm still waiting for monstro or anyone else to provide evidence that the authorities, at any level, WANTED people to die.This is not a court of law. No one is on trial here. Why be so defensive?

kinoons

09-03-2005, 07:19 PM

kinoons, its very easy to argue why something can't be done. I suspect thats what went on during the early days of the disaster at FEMA HQ. "Helicopters to airdrop water to the Superdome? Can't be done. Why not? Well, here a ten different reasons, and the figures to go with it. Its not worth it, its just a drop in the bucket, and we can use those helicopters to do something else anyway... " An experienced Director may have made a different call. Your posts, if your figures are correct, show that an airdrop was entirely possible, using the hypothetical conditions we arbitarily imposed on our scenerio.[/QUOTE]

Again, if I have not clearly stated it, let me do so. Yes, this relief mission has clearly been fucked up. I'm not trying to make any justification on why we are 5 days into this relief mission and things are not going with any semblance of organization or direction.

What I am trying to show is that it is unreasonable to expect a significant amount of relief within the first 48 or maybe 72 hours. After that I have a hard time cutting a lot of slack.

Helicopters are great, but they do not carry a large amount of supplies. Those supplies that they do carry have to be trucked to a central location. Getting everything needed on one central location, close enough to allow for flights, takes time. I don’t know about yourself, but I'd rather not bet the well-being of myself and others on bunkers, hoping my food does not get flooded out, burned down, looted, or otherwise destroyed.

In the example of the superdome (which is an arbitrary example with speculated numbers, I will freely admit and agree to that fact) Using one helicopter making non-stop round trips (Which may or may not be possible) could likely need twenty four hours to get two days worth of water into the area. This does not include any food, clothing, blankets, medical supplies, or sanitation needs.

Given the possible number of helicopters (again, a number I just tried to make a reasonable guess at, I could be wayyyyyy off.) and the vast area that has been affected, expecting to be able to air drop supplies into the area in a large enough supply to make a big difference is unreasonable. No one has given any argument to the statement that you probably need to have some law and order in place on the ground prior to dropping those supplies to avoid similar outcomes to past events in Africa dealing with UN food convoys.

Now, should those helicopters just be sitting there, pilots with their thumbs up their butt, because a little water wont make a difference, so we won't do it? No, of course they should be flying. Three thousand people saved is better than none. If I gave that impression I was not clear in my arguments. What does seem to be taking place (just through outside observation via the media) is the federal government attempted to make the "perfect decision" with people who were not sure what the perfect decision is.

I wonder if they were ever told that in some cases a good decision right now is better than the perfect decision three days later.

kinoons

09-03-2005, 07:20 PM

Sorry for the bad coding. My post was in response to Banquet Bear's post.

Frankenstein Monster

09-03-2005, 07:49 PM

"Malice" sounds not too far from the truth. Consider the following.

Start with This guy from DailyKos: (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/9/3/193425/6665)
FEMA is not operating as it might because it, like other parts of government under Bush, is designed not to work properly. The intent is to make the government not work on behalf of the public.

This seeming incompetence is designed into the government Bush built. It is an intrinsic part of a plan to alienate the public from the government, to set the public against its government and justify further cuts in all budgets of government except defense spending, and to shovel the country's collective misery into the too-small hands of private charities - as was the case in the Gilded Age. ...as evidenced by the strangling bathtub quote.

However, this is not the half of it. If these guys hate government so much, why do they line up around the block for these plum political appointments?

The answer is because they see it as an opportunity to profit off of the limitless streams of money sloshing around in government. Their conscience certainly won't bother them. Halliburton? You know, they defended the no-bid contracts by stating that Halliburton was uniquely qualified to perform that work in those difficult circumstances, blah blah. I'm sure they believe their own spin.

It is well known that the worst breakdown with the government aid effort in the Katrina disaster was the breakdown of communication. All communication among the government agents had broken down. (Of course, it was all on national television... people made phone calls from hotels... a guy even blogged (http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor/) it over multiple Internet connections... but that doesn't count...)

Now here's the real shame in this sorry episode. The government had in fact recently spent enormous dollars on a sparkling new fancy-ass communications system! (http://www.geointelmag.com/geointelligence/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=143254&pageID=1)
After planning and deploying the technology — which leveraged Web services, wireless networks, the Global Positioning System, geographic information systems, real-time weather data, and sensitive information-sharing technology — the consortium staged a mock terrorist response in early October 2004. During the exercise — planned and coordinated in part by the Louisiana National Guard 62nd Civil Support Team and the South Louisiana Economic Council — local agencies activated their own emergency response plans, which provided a realistic backdrop against which to evaluate pilot technology performance.

....

Louisiana proved ideal for the LA-RECON pilot. First, the technology demonstration addressed clear-cut needs, particularly in the industrial southern area of the state. Second, a culture of cooperation exists among state and local public-safety agencies because of their year-round preparation for the hurricane season. Third, as evidenced by its development of a statewide fusion center, the Louisiana State Police has taken the lead in seeking and adopting innovative technology solutions to enhance the security of the state's industrial base. In short, LA-RECON was a resounding success and provides myriad lessons on which the nation can now build.

The LA-RECON pilot program technologies were fielded by Northrop Grumman Corporation, SAIC, RAINS, ESRI, AvinStream LLC, NuParadigm, Inc., AES Corporation, and Apogen Technologies.

And remember that a similar situation existed on 9/11.

It goes beyond incompetence. They do it on purpose. It's a consequence of having government run by a class that sees it as nothing more than a source riches, ripe for the taking.

monstro

09-03-2005, 08:28 PM

I'm still waiting for monstro or anyone else to provide evidence that the authorities, at any level, WANTED people to die.

My evidence is that someone turned away FIVE MILES of SKILLED HELP.

You still not have ponied up an alternative explanation that makes ANY kind of sense!

Der Trihs

09-03-2005, 08:38 PM

My evidence is that someone turned away FIVE MILES of SKILLED HELP.

You still not have ponied up an alternative explanation that makes ANY kind of sense!

Utter incompetence. That's really the point I was trying to make; that if the motive isn't malice, then the people in charge of the "relief effort" are utter incompetents.

monstro

09-03-2005, 08:49 PM

This is not a court of law. No one is on trial here. Why be so defensive?

He's defensive because someone like Updike is a truster. He believes in the System. He doesn't think the government or those individuals running the government could ever have malicious intent. Hearing about someone turning away FIVE MILES of SKILLED HELP does not make him angry, but hearing someone attribute malice to the government responsible for this decision does. Having faith in the government is more important than holding it accountable.

An incompetent act can be so horrible, so incomprehensible, that it might as well be one of malice. I know if I had been treading water while that idiot (whoever he is) had waved away all that preciously needed assistance, it wouldn't matter what the hell his intent was. My anger would still be the same.

Eventually, after hearing so many "oops, we goofed!" stories, my mind starts to wonder if perhaps all these "goofs" are happening on purpose. I have no control over what my mind does. Ever since this thing began to unfold, the doors of my mind have been blown open. I'm not going to be able to close them for a very long time.

Archergal

09-03-2005, 08:54 PM

This showed up on one of my email lists:

How SHOULD the President have handled this disaster?

History shows plenty of examples to people who actually LEAD...

In September 1999, Hurricane Floyd -- a category 3 -- was bearing down the
Carolinas and Virginia.

President Clinton was in Christchurch, New Zealand - meeting with
President Jiang of China (you know, actually working). He made the proclamation that only Presidents can make and declared the areas affected by Floyd "Federal
Disaster Areas" so the National Guard and Military can begin to mobilize.

Then he cut short his meetings overseas and flew home to coordinate the
rescue efforts. This all one day BEFORE a Cat-3 hit the coast. That is how
you do it.

How about this dope's own father during Hurricane Andrew? Once again,
President Bush (41) -- August, 1992 -- was in the midst of a brutal
campaign for re-election. Yet, he cut off his campaigning the day before
and went to Washington where he martialed the largest military operation
on US soil in history. He sent in 7,000 National Guard and 22,000 regular
military personnel, and all the gear to begin the clean up within hours
after Andrew passed through Florida. 'Cause, you know, those people and
their stuff was actually where it belonged, rather than being used for
insurgent target-practice halfway around the world in a vain effort to
make Iraq safe for Iranian takeover.

In August of 1969 when Cat-5 Hurricane Camille hit roughly the same area
as Katrina, President Nixon had already readied the National Guard and
ordered all Gulf rescue vessels and equipment from Tampa and Houston to follow the Hurricane in. There were over 1,000 regular military with two dozen
helicopters to assist the Coast Guard and National Guard within hours
after the skies cleared.

Bush 43 - August 2005 - Cat-5 Hurricane Katrina bears down on New Orleans
and the Mississippi gulf. Both states are down nearly 8,000 National Guard
troops because they are in Iraq -- with most of the rescue gear needed.
Bush is on vacation. The day before Katrina makes landfall, Bush rides his
bike for two hours. The day she hits, he goes to Johnnie McCain's birthday
party; and lies to old people about the multi-billion-dollar
pharmaceutical company welfare boondoggle. People are dying, the largest port of entry in the United States (and fifth largest in the World) is under attack. Troops and supplies are desperately needed. The levees are cracking and the
emergency 1-1/2 ton sandbags are ready, but there aren't enough
helicopters or pilots to set them before the levees fail. The mayor of New Orleans
begs for Federal coordination, but there is none, and the sandbagging never
gets done. So Bush -- naturally -- goes to San Diego to play guitar with a
country singer and lie to the military about how Iraq is just exactly like
WWII. The levees give way, filling New Orleans with water, sewage, oil and
chemicals. Ten percent of all US exports, and 50% of all agricultural
exports ordinarily go through this port. It is totally destroyed. Bush
decides he'll end his vacation a couple of days early -- TOMORROW
--BECAUSE HE HAS TICKETS TO A PADRES GAME! He goes back to the Fake Farm in
Crawford, with every intention of doing something on WEDNESDAY about this disaster that happened starting last Sunday night.

Frankenstein Monster

09-03-2005, 09:59 PM

Here's a Kos diary making the case for "Intentional withholding of aid" (http://dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/9/3/131934/7503). In any case, lots more anec-data.
As a flooded New Orleans sinks further into despair, up to 500 Florida airboat pilots have volunteered to rescue Hurricane Katrina victims, transport relief workers and ferry supplies. But they aren't being allowed in. And they're growing frustrated.

...

Mayor of Chicago Richard Daley offered 36 firefighters and technical rescue teams, 8 emergency medical techs, search-and-rescue equipment, 100 police officers, 2 boats, a mobile clinic and 140 streets and sanitation workers with 29 trucks. All self-sufficient. And the FEMA response? 'Just send one truck.'

...

They have turned generators away from us. They´ve turned fuel away from us because they determine, or the driver determined, that it wasn´t the correct spot to put it. The generators ... oh, the site hadn´t been inspected yet. We´ve gotta bring an inspector to see where the thing is going.

Muffin

09-03-2005, 10:09 PM

Archergal, that is one hell of a powerful post. Thank you for putting Bush's lack of action in perspective.

Hippy Hollow

09-03-2005, 10:21 PM

I now will predict that the Bush gang of distractors will urge us to spend the Sunday talk shows conversing over the passing of Supreme Court Chief Justice Rehnquist. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050904/ap_on_go_su_co/renquist)

Preemptively, I will say that it is unfortunate that he has died at a time during which we may not give his life and work the appropriate attention it deserves. I hope that the elected officials and policymakers who see this cataclysmically bunged response from the president who was going to make us safer through the Department of Homeland Security, a new attention to disaster preparedness keep the pressure on and don't allow this story about the cronyism in the FEMA appointments, poor response, and planning for this disaster to move off the front page.

Frankenstein Monster

09-03-2005, 10:22 PM

Another new piece of.... substandard response. The mind boggles... and boggles... and boggles...
You're on your own, Britain's victims told (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1562517,00.html)

British families trapped in New Orleans last night claimed that US authorities had refused to evacuate them as Hurricane Katrina approached the city.

...

Gerrard Scott, 35, spoke to his brother Peter from the Ramada Hotel in New Orleans where he has been stranded without assistance with wife, Sandra, 38, and seven-year-old son Ronan for the past six days. 'Those that didn't fit their criteria were told to help themselves. The police said they were evacuating Americans, and took away the majority.

'The British who were left all thought the police would come back, but nobody has. They have just been left,' said Peter Scott last night.

...

There is a payphone in the hotel lobby, but US operators have been refusing to accept collect calls from stranded Britons. 'Some of them are just hanging up even after they have explained they are trapped in New Orleans. It's like - what emergency?' said Scott.

Updike

09-03-2005, 10:54 PM

He's defensive because someone like Updike is a truster. He believes in the System. He doesn't think the government or those individuals running the government could ever have malicious intent. Hearing about someone turning away FIVE MILES of SKILLED HELP does not make him angry, but hearing someone attribute malice to the government responsible for this decision does. Having faith in the government is more important than holding it accountable.

An incompetent act can be so horrible, so incomprehensible, that it might as well be one of malice. I know if I had been treading water while that idiot (whoever he is) had waved away all that preciously needed assistance, it wouldn't matter what the hell his intent was. My anger would still be the same.

Eventually, after hearing so many "oops, we goofed!" stories, my mind starts to wonder if perhaps all these "goofs" are happening on purpose. I have no control over what my mind does. Ever since this thing began to unfold, the doors of my mind have been blown open. I'm not going to be able to close them for a very long time.

Thanks for telling me what I believe. :rolleyes:

This is getting way beyond ridiculous.

Do you think President Bush is gleefully rubbing his hands together, wanting babies, especially black ones, :rolleyes: to die? He's Satan, is that it?

Because that's what you said, that the authorities wanted people to die.

Tracy Lord

09-03-2005, 11:10 PM

flickster

09-03-2005, 11:11 PM

Looks like the state of Louisiana had a good evacuation plan, too bad it wasn't very well utilized.

Louisiana Evacuation Plan (http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/EOPSupplement1a.pdf)

Public transportation was supposed to be used for those with no means

Hospitals and Nursing Homes were supposed to have a plan for evacuating their patients as part of their state licensing

Floyd13

09-03-2005, 11:11 PM

Thanks for telling me what I believe. :rolleyes:

This is getting way beyond ridiculous.

Do you think President Bush is gleefully rubbing his hands together, wanting babies, especially black ones, :rolleyes: to die? He's Satan, is that it?

Because that's what you said, that the authorities wanted people to die.

Well....have you heard about that little war we started that claimed quite a few lives? At this point we all know he's a complete fucking piece of shit with no conscious to speak of. Ever since he took over lots of fucking people have died.

While people were jumping out of burning buildings, he read a book about a goat. While people were starving and drowning, he had a barbeque and went to a baseball game. So....why should we believe otherwise at this point?

Fuck him

Updike

09-03-2005, 11:16 PM

Why do you think FEMA turned away five miles of help?

That's not a rhetorical question, I want to know what you think the explanation is.

Well, according to monstro, et al, it's because they WANTED people to die. Do you not see how silly that is?

Der Trihs

09-03-2005, 11:19 PM

This is getting way beyond ridiculous.

Do you think President Bush is gleefully rubbing his hands together, wanting babies, especially black ones, :rolleyes: to die? He's Satan, is that it?

Because that's what you said, that the authorities wanted people to die.
What's so implausible ? Do you really think that bad people don't exist ? He's the head of a party notorious for racism and for hating the poor; they have a chance to kill a great many poor, black people without personally getting their hands bloody. I've never seen any evidence that he or his friends have any form of ethics or compassion; I see no reason for them not to enjoy whats happening.

Muffin

09-03-2005, 11:25 PM

I don't believe for a second that Bush and his government take any pleasure from the disaster. I expect that they are deeply concerned and are trying to do everything they can to remedy the situation.

The problem is that they are grossly incompetent.

Updike

09-03-2005, 11:31 PM

What's so implausible ? Do you really think that bad people don't exist ? He's the head of a party notorious for racism and for hating the poor; they have a chance to kill a great many poor, black people without personally getting their hands bloody. I've never seen any evidence that he or his friends have any form of ethics or compassion; I see no reason for them not to enjoy whats happening.

Oh well, now you've convinced me. Bush is a racist who wants to kill all the poor people. Your post was very helpful, and grounded in reality, to boot. Thanks!

Beware of Doug

09-03-2005, 11:44 PM

Thanks for telling me what I believe. :rolleyes:

This is getting way beyond ridiculous.

Do you think President Bush is gleefully rubbing his hands together, wanting babies, especially black ones, :rolleyes: to die? He's Satan, is that it?

Because that's what [monstro] said, that the authorities wanted people to die.I don't think anyone wanted people to die. They just don't seem to have given a shit.

The System broke down, and the people in charge of it, instead of following their best human instincts (if they even had any left), chose to stick with The System. Probably they'd been trained to believe it, and the authority it handed out, was the only thing standing between society and chaos.

The idea of volunteers with boats as "renegades" is an example of how far afield such thinking can take you.

Shayna

09-04-2005, 12:06 AM

Public transportation was supposed to be used for those with no means Not just "used". . . Transportation vehicles will be pre-positioned to transport residents to shelters. The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating. Right. (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050901/480/flpc21109012015) Those look pre-positioned to me.

And this crap about no one supposedly being able to predict the destruction of the levees? SOUTHEAST LOUISIANA
HURRICANE EVACUATION
AND SHELTERING PLAN

REVISED JANUARY 2000

<snip>

The Area is protected by an extensive levee system, but above-normal water levels and hurricane surge could cause levee overtopping or failures.

I hope every one of these fuckers in charge loses their jobs and is never allowed to work in the public sector again. The Mayor, the Governor, the heads of FEMA & DHS and that fuckstick who's supposed to be in charge of the country, but would rather be building some foreign nation clear across the goddamn globe. Incompetent jackasses, every one of them.

Tracy Lord

09-04-2005, 12:09 AM

Well, according to monstro, et al, it's because they WANTED people to die. Do you not see how silly that is?

You're not answering my question.

Ogre

09-04-2005, 12:20 AM

Well, according to monstro, et al, it's because they WANTED people to die. Do you not see how silly that is?So, why do YOU believe they were turned away. Tell me now. Tell me what YOU think happened.

Der Trihs

09-04-2005, 12:28 AM

Oh well, now you've convinced me. Bush is a racist who wants to kill all the poor people. Your post was very helpful, and grounded in reality, to boot. Thanks!

Well, what's your explanation? You keep claiming I'm deluded or something, without bothering to actually say why.
For that matter, it makes little difference. Whether he meant to or not, he's pretty much done exactly what an evil man would have done. The dead are still just as dead either way.

Mtgman

09-04-2005, 01:09 AM

OK.

Can anyone cite a previous disaster relief -- or any other similar effort -- that spun up to speed more quickly than this?

Everyone whining about how the administration is dragging its feet, or should be doing something faster and better... when, in the history of the fucking world, has an effort this size actually been done any quicker?

And the first person that mumbles "Iraq" should be slapped.

So? Anyone? Bueller?
Berlin. 1948. (http://www.almc.army.mil/alog/Berlinairlift.html) One of America's finest hours, might be the closest. Two Million civilians completely cut off from any ground-based supply lines. Local water, but no coal for heat or electricity and no food in a city that had been bombed/shot to hell and was only just recovering. The planes of the time had much lower cargo capacity and turn around times, they had no ports(and most of the wharfs in New Orleans seem operational according to the port authority (http://www.wdsu.com/news/4933155/detail.html)) and couldn't use ANY ground transport. New Orleans still has at least one leg of Interstate Highway 10 open as well as many of their wharfs and several airfields large enough to land troops/supplies. The air national guard has flown over 761 missions in the past few days (http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Sep2005/20050903_2605.html). They don't seem to be making them count like they did in Berlin nearly sixty years ago despite having better equipment, training, and technology(GPS, etc.). I don't understand it. The government/military side of the staging and logistics seem to be making it up as they go along.

The Red Cross and the Southern Baptist Convention are making the Federal efforts look like a kids attempt at mimicing Picasso. I don't understand it. I don't know what to do about it, but I sure as hell know that my wife and I donated blood today to the Red Cross and financial contributions are going through those channels as well. At this point I think they're the best hope for the people of New Orleans and they're doing more with their few hundred million(302 million in gifts and pledges (http://www.redcross.org/pressrelease/0,1077,0_314_4509,00.html) so far) few thousand volunteers(4200, another 600 on the way), and couple hundred emergency vehicles(249, more on the way)than the Feds are with all their billions and the vast manpower and equipment resources of the national guard. It makes me cry with frustration. This isn't just a "big government efficiency problem", the Berlin airlift proved large-scale operations can be done well by the government, or even several governments working together(which is supposed to introduce even more inefficiencies). So what the fuck is happening out there? The only thing I can think of is massive leadership failure. The Red Cross and the SBC have proven that even small numbers(4,200 versus tens of thousands of guard and military) of well supported and co-ordinated people can get a lot done. They served over 300,000 hot meals in the past 24 hours. So what the fuck Feds? What the fuck is happening?

I need to stop now. I've revised and expanded this post several times via previews and it's just making me sick to read it and the data in the links. I'll post it now with one last note.

Anybody in Dallas/Ft. Worth. Head over to Texas Land & Cattle or the Del Frisco Double Eagle Steakhouses on Labor day. They're donating 100% of their receipts for the day to relief efforts. Other resturants in the area are doing similar things (http://www.guidelive.com/feature/316/) although those steakhouses are pretty much the only ones doing 100%.

Thanks,
Steven

Floyd13

09-04-2005, 01:51 AM

You'd think I could use the correct word once in awhile. :smack:

TVeblen

09-04-2005, 02:24 AM

So, why do YOU believe they were turned away. Tell me now. Tell me what YOU think happened.

I'm not monstro or updike but I'd guess local people, faced with horrifying devastation, fell back on mistaken trust. They were front-line responsible for handling chaos. They responded to sweep the decks of well-meaning but muddled volunteers so the real organized rescue forces wouldn't be impeded.

kinoons

09-04-2005, 03:51 AM

Berlin. 1948. (http://www.almc.army.mil/alog/Berlinairlift.html) One of America's finest hours, might be the closest.

while a good example, it should be noted that the blockade of all ground routes was anticipated, airplanes did not start to arrive for two days, and the operation was plagued with early logistical errors (all taken from your web link)

Updike

09-04-2005, 07:18 AM

I'm not monstro or updike but I'd guess local people, faced with horrifying devastation, fell back on mistaken trust. They were front-line responsible for handling chaos.

That's what I think happened--the local authorities were completely overwhelmed. Remember, on Monday we all thought NOLA dodged a bullet when Katrina weakened a bit and veered eastward. It wasn't until Tuesday when the levees were breeched that all hell broke loose.

The failures at the local level are spectacular, yet I don't see much, if any, criticism of Mayor Nagin or Governor Blanco. Instead, we have BUSH IS TEH EVIL!!!!!!!!! in 8.2 million threads.

Hey, if that's what it takes for some people to get through the day, have at it, I guess. But realize that it's already been done, to the nth degree, and adds nothing to this or any other discussion.

I'm going on holiday shortly and won't be able to participate in this thread further.

Happy Labor Day to all.

Peace, out.

Biggirl

09-04-2005, 07:57 AM

I'm not monstro or updike but I'd guess local people, faced with horrifying devastation, fell back on mistaken trust. They were front-line responsible for handling chaos. They responded to sweep the decks of well-meaning but muddled volunteers so the real organized rescue forces wouldn't be impeded.
This would include The Red Cross? Let's not forget the fact that there were NO organized rescue forces. None. Not until shit was already very, very bad indeed.

I don't think the president wanted people to die either. I think he just didn't give a fuck about those people. He issued an order to evacuate and if you didn't get out, then tough tittie. The all the important people got out. Let's look at the reason why the Red Cross was kept out once again:
The state Homeland Security Department had requested--and continues to request--that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans following the hurricane. Our presence would keep people from evacuating and encourage others to come into the city.

The let no one in the city, they did not send troops, they turned away those who came to help. What the fuck are we supposed to think?

Evil Captor

09-04-2005, 08:03 AM

That's what I think happened--the local authorities were completely overwhelmed. Remember, on Monday we all thought NOLA dodged a bullet when Katrina weakened a bit and veered eastward. It wasn't until Tuesday when the levees were breeched that all hell broke loose.

The failures at the local level are spectacular, yet I don't see much, if any, criticism of Mayor Nagin or Governor Blanco. Instead, we have BUSH IS TEH EVIL!!!!!!!!! in 8.2 million threads.

Hey, if that's what it takes for some people to get through the day, have at it, I guess. But realize that it's already been done, to the nth degree, and adds nothing to this or any other discussion.

I'm going on holiday shortly and won't be able to participate in this thread further.

Happy Labor Day to all.

Peace, out.

Smart of you to leave since your post contains an inherent flaw that completely invalidates its point and would be very hard to defend. Here's the flaw: regardless of the performance of local governments, FEMA was formed because it was RECOGNIZED that there were some disasters that were way beyond the ability of local governments to respond to. Even if the city, county and state government had responded in an absolutely topnotch manner (there is little doubt that they failed their people, too, to various degree.) they wouldn't have been able to handle a disaster on the scale that Katrina provided.

Katrina is FEMA's baby, because events like Katrina are EXACTLY what FEMA was designed to handle. And they failed, miserably. And Bush failed, miserably, when he appointed a crony with no experience whatsoever in disaster management to head FEMA. And when he cut funding for shoring up the very levee that failed.

The governor and mayor will definitely be in for some heavy criticism as soon as Louisiana media get their act together.

Bricker

09-04-2005, 08:11 AM

The state Homeland Security Department had requested--and continues to request--that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans following the hurricane. Our presence would keep people from evacuating and encourage others to come into the city.
The let no one in the city, they did not send troops, they turned away those who came to help. What the fuck are we supposed to think?

You do realize that was the Louisana state Homeland Security folks, NOT the federal version?

Bricker

09-04-2005, 08:16 AM

Berlin. 1948. (http://www.almc.army.mil/alog/Berlinairlift.html) One of America's finest hours, might be the closest. Two Million civilians completely cut off from any ground-based supply lines.

This is, in fact, the closest effort I could think of in history. The scope of the effort needed was very similar.

Now... how long between the time the blockade started and the time the planes started landing in force?

Frank

09-04-2005, 09:09 AM

This is, in fact, the closest effort I could think of in history. The scope of the effort needed was very similar.

Now... how long between the time the blockade started and the time the planes started landing in force?
Assuming whoever wrote this wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Airlift) article has their facts straight, the first plane landed two days later. I can't find anything that specifically answers your "in force" question.

There was a glancing comment in The Denver Post this morning that praise/criticism of the federal government's response to this disaster is divided sharply along party lines. I found that hard to believe, but I guess it must be so.

EddyTeddyFreddy

09-04-2005, 09:13 AM

Just how incompetent is the management at Homseland Security? How about fucking oblivious (http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/03/katrina.chertoff/index.html)? Defending the U.S. government's response to Hurricane Katrina, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff argued Saturday that government planners did not predict such a disaster ever could occur.

But in fact, government officials, scientists and journalists have warned of such a scenario for years.

Chertoff, fielding questions from reporters, said government officials did not expect both a powerful hurricane and a breach of levees that would flood the city of New Orleans.

"That 'perfect storm' of a combination of catastrophes exceeded the foresight of the planners, and maybe anybody's foresight," Chertoff said.

He called the disaster "breathtaking in its surprise."

But engineers say the levees preventing this below-sea-level city from being turned into a swamp were built to withstand only Category 3 hurricanes. And officials have warned for years that a Category 4 could cause the levees to fail. How the hell can he say something like that? Does he honestly believe no one saw this coming? And if he does, what the hell is he doing running the agency that's supposed to plan for this shit?

kinoons

09-04-2005, 09:30 AM

This is, in fact, the closest effort I could think of in history. The scope of the effort needed was very similar.

Now... how long between the time the blockade started and the time the planes started landing in force?

As it has been stated, the first aircraft began to land two days after the blockade was initiated. It should be noted that the allies were a little wise to the chance the USSR might perform such an act and was planning for it. Even with this per the first weblink there was issues with logistics and such.

The primary aircraft used were the C-47 and C-54. The C-47 could carry 6000lbs of cargo, the C-54 could carry 28,000.

some quick facts:

http://www.usafe.af.mil/berlin/quickfax.htm

U.S. airlift reached peak strength of 225 C-54s on Jan 10th 1949 (7 months in)

CALTF mounts a maximum effort known as the "Easter Parade": 1,398 sorties (one landing in Berlin every minute), 12,940 short tons. on Apr 16th 1949 (10 months in)

also, this operation did not need to perform any search and rescue. Minimal civil unrest was present in Berlin at the time. There also was minimal issues in distribution of supplies on both sides of the aircraft chain.

Its a good comparison, but not a direct one.

fessie

09-04-2005, 09:54 AM

I saw on NBC this morning a report that a huge convoy of school buses was held up outside the city for two days TWO DAYS because officials wanted an ARMED GUARD on every single bus, and there weren't enough armed guards available.

Those officials are so afraid of angry blacks, they won't go in without firepower. It may not be an official racially discriminatory policy, but it's a paranoia rooted in racism.

Of course, by the time the busses did arrive, people who were already ill were near death (or dead).

Oddly enough, I was in a city once with armed guards on public busses. That's one of the details I remember from my visit to East Berlin in 1985.

fessie

09-04-2005, 09:59 AM

Since people have been speculating on the logistical problems involved in the response, I'll quote the husband of an acquaintance of mine (I have his permission) who posted the following on another messageboard on Sept. 1:

[quote]Responding to your question about why with technology the military cannot help more.

Quick answer: The military is made to kill people and destroy things, not to rescue them.

Long Answer:
The job of assisting people in distress belongs to the Fire Department, EMS, Police Department and othe civil authorities. In times of disaster, the military augments (assists) civilian forces in dealing with disaster. Civilian authorities are the experts. The problem here is that there is no Civilian Infrastructure to augment. There is nothing.

Already, this is the largest committment of military forces for humanitarian relief in US History. The Coast Guard has boats and ships out rescuing people, the Air Force has mobilized its search and rescue teams, the Marine Corps has forces in theater, and the Army is responding with the Corps of Engineers, water sanitation teams, and other assets.

One factor is time and distance. The military is set up to rapidly move troops around the world. To do this, they move combat (trigger pulling) forces first, and then plan to build the supply chain to support them. Thus, support units (like water purification teams) are on a longer alert to deployment cycle than the combat forces. Most support units are also Reserves or National Guard units, so they need to be called up, mobililed, equipment found and shipped, and then they can arrive in theater.

Already, military rations (Meals Ready to Eat) are fast becoming the food staple of those stranded, so there is one way they are helping.

I guess the question is, "What more do you want done?" We have not yet found a way to push back waters, we don't know how to stop crocodiles from swimming in the swamp, and we don't know how to stop a hurricane from destroying a city lying below sea level on the coast.

The military is also pretty well tapped out with commitments in Korea, Germany, Bosnia, Africa, Afganistan, and Iraq, all of which reduce the available manpower. Already, 1400 National Guardsmen are being sent in per day, with more on the way. National Guardsmen are you neighbors who are being yanked out of their regular jobs, and sent to help. This takes time to fully mobilize. The Louisianna National Guard is most likely devestated, with their alert rosters non functional, so help has to be authorized by the neighboring states' governors.

Regularly, the military mobilizes soldier to fight the California wildfires, help with mudslides, and the like. Here, we have a disaster whose level is unprecidented. Rather ask, "Why was the city of New Orleans so unprepared for a Hurricane?" (Something whose presence is not exactly unknown on the Gulf Coast.

FEMA and the Army Corps of Engineers have the same trouble that most government agencies have. Very little communication. Probably, no one at FEMA thought to ask, and the CoE assummed that FEMA knew.

As far as were we prepared, no. I think it is foolish to blame anyone for the lack of response, or failure in efficiency. This is just huge. If it were an Earthquake, then the environment would at least be safe afterwards. But with the Hurricane and aftermath, you're talking about trying to conduct rescue operations in an unsafe enviroment with limited assets. I seriously doubt that anyone ever considered this BAD of a scenario where vehicles cannot even travel through the city.

After looking things over, the biggest problem seems to be the same one involved whenever state and federal forces are involved. Who's in charge. This is compounded by the number of federal agencies, and the presence of multiple civilian agencies (Red Cross and such.) This has been, and always will be an issue. We even had a war in 1861-1865 to determine just how much freedom states had to make their own decisions. Normally in this situation, there would be a state disaster coordinator who would request assets from FEMA or , through the State's Adjutant General, the Military, or other federal agencies. That person would then assign those assets to where they are needed and they would be subordinate. Now, however, there is no one in charge (although from reading the earlier posts, it looks like the make a Lt. Gen. the event commander) and multiple agencies who all have their own specialties all trying to do their best.

Quite honestly, there's not a whole lot people can do. In a year, we'll still be going and talking about it. The important thing, in my opinion, is not to concentrate on what went wrong, as we have years to do that, but rather to concentrate on how we can make it better. Clamoring for information now only distracts from the issue at hand, which is trying to take care of people in need.

One thing to remember is that hindsite is 20/20. It is easy to blame the President or the Governor of Louisiana for failing to be fully prepared. However, how would you have felt three years ago if money had been diverted from Education to build up the levees in New Orleans which held the last time a Hurricane came through 40 years ago? Would you have supported that? Or would you have called it pork? I know I would have thought that the Louisiana senators were getting one heck of a kickback if they had spent a great deal of Federal money on improving the Levees and dikes.

Wendy's Husband
West Point '95
CPT(ret), US Army

you with the face

09-04-2005, 11:29 AM

Dewey has impressed me. You don't see that kind of personal integrity everyday. It almost brought me to tears. He has renewed some of my faith in humanity. Thank you, man.

I don't think what we are seeing is the product of outright malice. I think its a mixture of incompetence, misplaced prioritization, and gross indifference to human suffering that has led to what we are seeing. But you know what? The end result is practically the same as if it had been caused by malice. At this point, to feret out the difference is splitting hairs.

Funny how Updike bows out of the thread as soon as someone else stepped in to provide him his answer. Couldn't come up with it himself, could he?

Anyone who has paid attention to this disaster and does not reach the conclusion that something is seriously fucked up with our country needs to wake up and smell the rotting corpses sitting in front of the Superdome and swimming in the streets. I'm truly bemused by Bricker's deligent quest to find a comparable disaster so that he put all of our angst in perspective for us. How kind of him. I just wish that he would stop looking back and start looking at the here and the now. Instead of searching for excuses, we need to figure out what went wrong and figure out what needs to be done to make sure it doesn't happen again. That's how progress is made.

Let's start from the top and work our way down. We have two important questions to deal with:

1) What decisions needed to made but were not made when they should have been?

2) Who was responsible for making those decisions?

It comes down to "what" and "who", quite simply. Figure out the "what" and then we can figure out the "who".

Then we can figure out what to do with the "who".

you with the face

09-04-2005, 12:01 PM

Those officials are so afraid of angry blacks, they won't go in without firepower. It may not be an official racially discriminatory policy, but it's a paranoia rooted in racism.

It happens when the criminality of a few is used as an excuse to stain the entire population and justify inaction. What we are seeing here is everyday race-based assumptions magnified 100 fold.

If we were talking about a majority white crowd, I doubt that the criminality of a few would cause the whole crowd to be characterized as violent, raping, and murderous. People would look closer and see that the crowd is composed of babies, old people, mothers, fathers, married couples, teenagers, and average blokes and blokettes just struggling to stay alive. The crowd as a whole would be viewed as innocent victims; the criminals among them would be viewed separate and apart from the rest.

But when the crowd is mostly black, a lot of people feel comfortable allowing the criminality of few to sully the reputation of the whole. They don't see the babies, the elderly, the concerned parents, and joe schmoes; they just see "them". "Them" who are looting, "them" who are shooting, "them" who are raping, "them" who are killing. The whole crowd gets viewed as "them". So the babies and old folks die, because of the presumption that "them" present a threat that justifies doing nothing.

I don't want to get on a soap box. I don't want to preach or whine. But what I'm talking about is at the heart of what Kanye West and other "prominent blacks" have been saying. Race has figured into this thing from the first time looting was reported until the first person stepped onto an evacuation bus. Race has played a role in American's perception of the disaster, and it will play a role in its aftermath.

We can tiptoe around it all day long, but the elephant in the living room will not be quiet for much longer. A storm is a-coming, and it ain't another hurricane.

monstro

09-04-2005, 12:18 PM

Apos

09-04-2005, 12:30 PM

A must read on the guys Bush appointed to run FEMA, and later FEMA's responsibilities after it was folded into the DHS:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2005_08_28.php#006399

These are the guys Bush's political fixers told him he's better say were great guys who did a great job, because admitting weakness would be bad politics.

you with the face

09-04-2005, 12:38 PM

you with the face, can you imagine the response if the Superdome people had been predominately white and the criminal element had been all black? You'd hear everyone saying, "Get those folks out of there NOW!" Not "They're acting like animals and that's why we haven't saved them yet."

]Exactly. The presence of thugs would be used as a excuse to act faster not slower. The presence of thugs would make us more sympthetic towards the victims, not more apathetic.

Monstro, the more I think about it all, the more it makes me want to cry with rage.

Cervaise

09-04-2005, 01:36 PM

How the hell can he say something like that?The public relations blitz has begun (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050904/ts_alt_afp/usweatherbush_050904181710).

I was already angry with these heartless, self-defensive motherfuckers. Now I'm furious. How dare they. How fucking dare they.

monstro

09-04-2005, 01:42 PM

The link doesn't work, Cervaise.

Scott Plaid

09-04-2005, 01:46 PM

*shrug*

Worked fine for me. The headline is "Administration launches public-relations blitz on Katrina"

Apos

09-04-2005, 01:50 PM

A real news story, but worthy of the Onion. Bush administration officials fan out to help in any way they can with political disaster relief amongst a devastated media in desperate need of fresh soundbytes and talking heads to get back on message.

monstro

09-04-2005, 01:51 PM

I swear it wasn't working five seconds ago. I think it was because of the sheer number of people clicking on it at the same time.

you with the face

09-04-2005, 01:57 PM

I swear, the more they scream "It's not my fault!" the more I want to blame them.

So hopefully this little campaign will become a textbook case of a backfired plan, and it will spawn a revolution.

vibrotronica

09-04-2005, 02:18 PM

With this administration, it's almost like the PR department of a major corporation has gone rogue and taken over the country. PR is all they know how to do, so that's all they do. When it comes time to actually do things, like run a war or balance a budget or protect the lives and well being of your citizens, they fail.

Frankenstein Monster

09-04-2005, 03:48 PM

I don't think what we are seeing is the product of outright malice. I think its a mixture of incompetence, misplaced prioritization, and gross indifference to human suffering that has led to what we are seeing. But you know what? The end result is practically the same as if it had been caused by malice. At this point, to feret out the difference is splitting hairs.

...

Let's start from the top and work our way down.
That's what strikes me the most. People talk about blaming Bush, blaming Branco, blaming Michael Brown, etc. But one of the most infuriating scandals is the incompetence of the lowest level workers. Did Bush order anybody to turn away five miles of help?

This WSJ article (http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB109261021789591912,00.html) (paid subscription required) seems to provide many pieces of this puzzle.

According to Mr. Brown and other insiders, a quiet battle is under way within the Homeland Security Department. On one side are former law-enforcement officials, advocating secrecy, tight security and intelligence as the key to minimizing the trauma of any terrorist attack. On the other are firefighters and emergency managers who emphasize collaboration, information sharing, public awareness and mitigation efforts to reduce the impact of disasters.

...

The low point was 1992, when Hurricane Andrew cost 26 lives in Florida and Louisiana and did an estimated $25 billion in damage. Thousands went without shelter for days, and the federal government was widely regarded as slow to react. In Washington, FEMA caught heavy blame.

By 1993, there were calls on Capitol Hill to abolish the agency. The Clinton administration revitalized it instead. New FEMA chief James Lee Witt adopted what's known as an all-hazards approach, based on the theory that responding to a disaster is essentially the same whether it is natural or manmade. The focus turned FEMA into an agency widely regarded as one of the government's most effective -- responding swiftly, for instance, to the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing. Mr. Clinton soon gave the agency cabinet-level status.

That lofty perch changed after 9/11, as Congress moved to create a department to confront the terrorism threat and put FEMA into it. The logic was that the new department needed emergency-response experts for any terrorist incident, and FEMA brought this hard-won experience.

But FEMA's 1,700 staffers make up barely 1% of the Homeland Security Department's 180,000 employees. Long-serving FEMA employees, unhappy with the loss of independence and in some cases with new policies, have been leaving FEMA in droves -- taking their years of experience with them.

Once the highest-ranked government office for worker satisfaction, FEMA is now dead last...

...

While funds and gear to fight terrorism are readily available, funds to help states mitigate disasters have been cut in half since 2001. For instance, after flooding in northeast Iowa in May damaged or destroyed more than 200 homes and businesses, the state found that funds for post-disaster mitigation were insufficient for their needs, under formulas set by Congress and agreed to by the Homeland Security Department.

Standing in an abandoned street in tiny Elkport, Iowa -- where the flood ruined all 38 houses, the general store, the Lutheran Church and the bank -- Iowa official Dennis Harper kicked the damp ground in frustration at his inability to cope with the scale of this year's Midwestern seasonal onslaught. "How do I explain to people who lived here and lost everything that I have $22 million this year to purchase equipment to fight terrorists, but not enough money to buy them out of their homes?" asked Mr. Harper, hazard-mitigation officer for Iowa's Homeland Security and Emergency Management Division.

fessie

09-04-2005, 05:32 PM

If we were talking about a majority white crowd, I doubt that the criminality of a few would cause the whole crowd to be characterized as violent, raping, and murderous. People would look closer and see that the crowd is composed of babies, old people, mothers, fathers, married couples, teenagers, and average blokes and blokettes just struggling to stay alive. The crowd as a whole would be viewed as innocent victims; the criminals among them would be viewed separate and apart from the rest.
<>
But when the crowd is mostly black, a lot of people feel comfortable allowing the criminality of few to sully the reputation of the whole. They don't see the babies, the elderly, the concerned parents, and joe schmoes; they just see "them". "Them" who are looting, "them" who are shooting, "them" who are raping, "them" who are killing. The whole crowd gets viewed as "them". So the babies and old folks die, because of the presumption that "them" present a threat that justifies doing nothing.
<>
We can tiptoe around it all day long, but the elephant in the living room will not be quiet for much longer. A storm is a-coming, and it ain't another hurricane.

You are absolutely right.

I'm also concerned that the ignorance and racism of a (small?) (minute?) part of White America will be seen as true for all of us. Among the people I know, hearts are breaking. I was just talking to my 85-yr-old Great Aunt, a Conservative Christian and lifelong Republican. She couldn't sleep Wednesday night after having watched the news.

Beware of Doug

09-04-2005, 06:04 PM

The public relations blitz has begun (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050904/ts_alt_afp/usweatherbush_050904181710).Chertoff acknowledged the federal government was still not fully prepared for such calamities as Katrina, which left thousands feared dead, but insisted that now was a time for recovery operations not finger-pointing.

"In due course, if people want to go and chop heads off, there will be an opportunity to do it," he said during a round of appearances on Sunday talk shows from a suburb of flooded New Orleans.

In other words, now that we've more or less emptied the city and given the chance for anybody stranded to drown or starve, it's time to get down to business and begin the operation in earnest. :rolleyes:

Don't you worry, Mr. Secretary, your time on the chopping block is already reserved. I hope.

you with the face

09-04-2005, 06:43 PM

I'm also concerned that the ignorance and racism of a (small?) (minute?) part of White America will be seen as true for all of us. Among the people I know, hearts are breaking. I was just talking to my 85-yr-old Great Aunt, a Conservative Christian and lifelong Republican. She couldn't sleep Wednesday night after having watched the news.

You are right as well. There are lots of white people who can see what I can see, who don't sit there making up excuses because of some nebulous "them", who are just as dismayed and upset that I am. The distressing thing is that those who don't see what I see seem to have a disproportionate amount of power right now.

If there is a silver lining to this cloud, it'll hopefully be that this event will serve as one gigantic wake up call. Bush loyalists will pull back the curtain and see the joke standing there. And deniers of racism will start to accept that racism wasn't eradicated in 1968; it's still here, just without the pointy white hats and the water hoses.

The Highwayman

09-04-2005, 07:22 PM

You know deep down in their heart, your average Bush supporter doesn't give a shit about New Orleans. I doubt that your average redneck gives a shit about New York for that matter other than it was a convenient excuse to bring to the surface all of their false patriotism and Christian right wing beliefs.

But I get this feeling that half of them are sitting in their chairs, the good Christians that they are, watching what is unfolding and thinking quietly to themselves that the looters are to blame. Add in the fact that most of these people are black (New Orleans is the only major city where Blacks are the majority) and you have recipe for not giving a shit.

I was sitting in the line at the DMV when I saw this Ossie and Harriet looking mother fucker standing in line in front of me. He was applying for a California license or something. Probably from Utah. Anyhow, he is talking to a little black lady who was the security guard. When the subject of New Orleans comes up, this little honky piss ant's only reflection was "what about those looters?" So I think that it is safe to say that most of these "law and order" types don't care about the people dying in New Orleans just as long as they can pair blacks with looting, no one there deserves to be rescued.

When all the excuses are gone
When there is no one left to blame
When the lies have been exposed
Your hyperbole exhausted
You finally stop looking through rose-colored shades and see that you and your family have suffered for the blind faith you have put into one incompetent leader.

When all your devices for deflecting the blame from this chickenshit chickhawk are gone, what are you going to do when you come to grips with the fact that this country has been diminished? No Clinton to blame. No Gore. No Kerry. This country is worse off because of your man. Try and lie your way out of that.

Archergal

09-04-2005, 07:47 PM

I don't think what we are seeing is the product of outright malice. I think its a mixture of incompetence, misplaced prioritization, and gross indifference to human suffering that has led to what we are seeing.
From Avedon Carol (http://sideshow.me.uk/ssep05.htm#041417):

Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice

RickJay

09-04-2005, 10:04 PM

(New Orleans is the only major city where Blacks are the majority)
Uh, no.

Washington, D.C. is about 60% black.
Baltimore, MD is 64% black.
Detroit, MI is 81% black.
Atlanta, GA is 61% black.
St. Louis, MO is 51% black.

I could go on but won't. Cite:

http://www.city-data.com/

What the heck gives you the idea New Orleans is the only black majority city?

AFAIKnow

09-04-2005, 10:08 PM

What the heck gives you the idea New Orleans is the only black majority city?

What else would you expect from an ignorant, racist fucktard?

asterion

09-04-2005, 11:46 PM

Chertoff acknowledged the federal government was still not fully prepared for such calamities as Katrina, which left thousands feared dead, but insisted that now was a time for recovery operations not finger-pointing.

"In due course, if people want to go and chop heads off, there will be an opportunity to do it," he said during a round of appearances on Sunday talk shows from a suburb of flooded New Orleans.

In other words, now that we've more or less emptied the city and given the chance for anybody stranded to drown or starve, it's time to get down to business and begin the operation in earnest. :rolleyes:

Don't you worry, Mr. Secretary, your time on the chopping block is already reserved. I hope.
I saw his appearance on both Fox News Sunday and Meet the Press (didn't watch Face the Nation.) Both times he came across as a complete idiot. Chris Wallace didn't tear into him the way Tim Russert did, but somebody on Fox's panel sure did after that segment. Here's (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168472,00.html) the Fox transcript and here's (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9179790/) the complete transcript for today's Meet the Press. Just scroll down past the first segment about Rehnquist.

A few more stories like the one Jefferson Parish President (what does that mean exactly, like county commissioner?) Broussard will do just as much damage as all the pictures of this last week.

Let me give you just three quick examples. We had Wal-Mart deliver three trucks of water, trailer trucks of water. FEMA turned them back. They said we didn't need them. This was a week ago. FEMA--we had 1,000 gallons of diesel fuel on a Coast Guard vessel docked in my parish. The Coast Guard said, "Come get the fuel right away." When we got there with our trucks, they got a word. "FEMA says don't give you the fuel." Yesterday--yesterday--FEMA comes in and cuts all of our emergency communication lines. They cut them without notice. Our sheriff, Harry Lee, goes back in, he reconnects the line. He posts armed guards on our line and says, "No one is getting near these lines." But even more damaging will be the tragedies like this: And I want to give you one last story and I'll shut up and let you tell me whatever you want to tell me. The guy who runs this building I'm in, emergency management, he's responsible for everything. His mother was trapped in St. Bernard nursing home and every day she called him and said, "Are you coming, son? Is somebody coming?" And he said, "Yeah, Mama, somebody's coming to get you. Somebody's coming to get you on Tuesday. Somebody's coming to get you on Wednesday. Somebody's coming to get you on Thursday. Somebody's coming to get you on Friday." And she drowned Friday night. She drowned Friday night.

MR. RUSSERT: Mr. President...

MR. BROUSSARD: Nobody's coming to get us. Nobody's coming to get us. The secretary has promised. Everybody's promised. They've had press conferences. I'm sick of the press conferences. For God sakes, shut up and send us somebody. The man broke down crying during this. The transcript is hard enough to read, but I started a bit myself watching him this morning. Get the media playing stories like this and I do think we can put enough pressure on the administration and Congress for something to be done.

(Fixed coding--Veb