Shining Knight is the best [Open Spoiler Within] character of all time

[Kyle Rayner1]

As most of you know who read comics, Shining Knight was revealed to be a girl and I think it was a great twist by Grant Morrison. Most of the female superheroes have big breats but Shining Knight has a flat chest and she looks a little masculine. It doesn't matter, though, because she kicks ass and has a strong moral code.

Who ever read Shining Knight don't you think girls would be more impressed with her than Wonder Woman? Why or why not?

[Kamino Neko]

You know...you really oughtn't put spoilers in the title of a thread less than a week after the work in question comes out. I still haven't read most of my books from this month since I was on vacation until Thursday. Shining Knight was one of them. I really hope there was more to this issue than the reveal of this fact.

As to the premise you present.

No, she isn't.

She's a different type than, Wonder Woman, Power Girl, Zatanna, Supergirl, Hawkgirl, Stargirl, Black Alice or so on...

But they're different from eachother, too. And being different doesn't make her better.

What about Sir Ystin makes her better than Wondie? That she doesn't show as much skin? That she's a little less pretty, more boyish, in her appearance? Hell, beyond that (and that fact that presumably Ystin isn't an animated clay statue, and comes from a patriarchal, rather than matriarchal society), how are they even significantly DIFFERENT? Everything that you say in her favour can apply to Diana, too.

Does the fact that Peeg has big tits negate everything else about her character? (Well, OK, when she's handled badly (which is often enough), they usually do take over. But the writer using her most right now - Geoff Johns - knows how to handle her.)

And, changing the subject, why does the fact that she 'kicks ass and has a strong moral code' mean that her appearance doesn't matter? Why would it matter if she were a lesser warrior, or had a lesser moral code?

Pure male wet dream and complete denial of femininity aren't the only choices for female characters. Neither is bad, inherantly, to be honest, nor are they really better or worse than eachother.

I daresay my experience - characters like Black Canary, Oracle, Stargirl, Batgirl, and, yes, Wonder Woman and Power Girl being very well liked by female readers because they're usually used neither purely as sex objects, nor as completely sexless, and are interesting characters, who aren't turned into stereotypes either in an attempt to pander to male fantasy or in a (usually failed) attempt to counter characters who do pander to those fantasies - holds true in general.

And a thought brought up by my mention of Peeg. It's how the character is presented that is important, not, strictly, the character's appearance.

Peeg, despite her famous bosom, is currently presented in a way that isn't sexist, is very interesting, and doesn't insult the readers, male or female.

Ystin, with a bad team handling her, could end up as much of a sexist stereotype as any big-bosomed bimbo - a woman who has to give up all vestiges of the female to be strong.

[Kyle Rayner1]

Hey sorry about, man. I thought everyone had already posted to the new comics thread, my bad. It won't happen, again.

Anyway, I like Wonder Woman and Batgirl but Shining Knight really stands for something because she is flat chested and masculine looking so she's not a male wet fantasy like Black Canary and the other "heroines" (by the way Zatanna and Black Canary aren't heroes because they took part in the mind wipe).

Have you seen Supergirl? She looks like Paris Hilton. She isn't a role model for anybody, same thing with Powergirl.

By the way, Shining Knight's moral code comes from King Arthur and those of that ilk so she has strong moral codes and she abides by therm not unlike Black Canary who won't deal with the repercussions of her actions but instead will mindwipe somebdoy. Not a role model too me.

Who are Peeg and Ystin? Never heard of them.

[Kyle Rayner1]

Oh crap Ystin is Shining Knight. Damn, my bad.

And yes alot more happens than that reveal, hell, that reveal happens in the first couple pages of the comic.

[Kamino Neko]

Who are Peeg and Ystin? Never heard of them.

Peeg == PG == Power Girl. Black Canary used that nickname for her in Birds of Prey.

Ystin is just a variant on Justin. Used when she was speaking her native tongue. Serves to separate her from the other Sir Justin.

Random sidenote - The idea that Black Canary or Zatanna aren't heroes because they made a hard choice - and I won't even say the wrong one, because there WAS no right choice in that situation - is beyond ridiculous. But it's a discussion for another thread, and one I won't join in because I tend to get a little over-excited when I do.

But back on topic - your dismissal of Peeg is even worse than that. Yes, she's attractive. Yes she has big tits. Dismissing her character completely because of that is absurd and sexist. Every bit as much so as liking her exclusively for that reason. She's intelligent, strong, and skilled, and while she's terribly insecure (and given how she's been jerked around, and the fact she's constantly dismissed because of her boobs in the text as well as out, I don't blame her), she's more than able to get past that and be extremely good at almost everything she sets out to do - mostly excepting interpersonal relations. She's an interesting, complex character - and as realistic as you can be in a superhero meleu - a fact that's not negated by the fact that she's also pretty.

She might not be a very good role model (I wouldn't present someone as insecure as she is as an object of emulation), but not every character has to be worth emulating to be a good character, and it's not her looks that make her a less than ideal role model.

[Asylum]

Not meaning to beat a dead horse here, but I rarely if ever post in the new comics thread because I let my comics stack up in my box at my local shop, so there's good chance if it's recent I don't know about it. Also I, like a lot of others around here, wait for the TPB to come out before I read a series, and that was exactly what I was doing with Morrison's Seven Soldiers stuff. Not a big deal tho', cause if her sex was revealed in the first issue it can't be too big of spoiler.

[Kyle Rayner1]

Power Girl has always struck me as crude and arrogant. I think most girls won't relate too her because well she's a bitch (see Justice League Europe). I think Ystin is a bigger role model because she doesn't boss around her team mates and is actually tough while Power Girl relies on her super powers. Have you seen the cover to JSA Classified #1 look how huge her tits are they're like double Ds I think that will make a girl turn away in disgust any time.

I think Ystin would be more encouraging to girls because of her flat chest, meaning that a girl doesn't have to have big tits to kick ass in battle. Besides, most girls who read comics are probably insecure about themselves (like most men too) and will look up to a hero like Ystin who are more like themselves (small tits). Not to mention little girls who are getting into comics for the first time.

[Kamino Neko]

Have you seen the cover to JSA Classified #1 look how huge her tits are they're like double Ds I think that will make a girl turn away in disgust any time.

You think wrong, in my experience, and I feel confident enough that my experience is, while not universal, generally applicable, to continue stating my point.

Most female readers aren't going to be turned off just because Peeg has big tits. (BTW, DD? I'd guess Peeg is pushing an F.) They might be put off by the cheesecake Adam Hughs cover of JSAC #1 (which is awful, BTW - not for the cheesecake, it's just badly drawn - I went for the Conner/Palmotti cover, myself), but, again, that's my point. She's being presented as naught but a sex object, and that's the problem - not that she has a big bosom.

Anyone who wasn't put off by Adam Hughs portrayal of her - either because they ignored the cover, or saw the Conner/Palmotti cover instead - and actually read the story, or read how she's written in JSA, and STILL dismissed her because she has big tits...well, the problem is theirs, is all I can say.

The women I know, however, for the most part are more mature than that, and actually judge her by how she's actually portrayed - by both the writers and the artists - not by her character design.

[cckerberos]

Wow... you're putting a lot of meaning into breast size. Ystin isn't necessarily completely flat chested in any case... her chest is bound, which means that there something worth binding. I wouldn't be surprised if she ends up having a small to medium chest similar to Kitty Pryde's.

[Kyle Rayner1]

Not really. I don't care if a female character has big breasts she can still be a role model (see Wonder Woman who is a great role model). It's just that Power Girl is a bitch. I don't like Johns's writing so that's why I haven't picked up JSA Classified so maybe she's changed but still, that cover will turn off any self-respecting woman.

Face it, Power Girl just looks like a slut and so does the "new" Supergirl.

[Silentgoldfish]

Face it, Power Girl just looks like a slut and so does the "new" Supergirl.

I agree. I don't care how powerful a character or how full of personality, as soon as a superheroine decides that the best outfit to fight crime/evil/whatever is something more suited to a stripper they've lost me.

For my money the best female superheroes are Spidergirl, who just wears a spare Spiderman costume, and the Catwoman for the first 25 issues of the current series. Then to boost sales they switched artists to someone that draws her like a 10 dollar whore again and my interest vanished.

[Kyle Rayner1]

Amen, brother. I loved it when Ed Brubaker and Cameron Stewart and those other artists (forget there names at the moment) were on the books until Paul Gulacy came on and ruined everything. It was a great book and Catwoman was a hell of a role model so is Spider-Girl even though I don't like her current book but that's probably because I'm too old (I'm only 18 lol) to appreciate it. I'm sure younger girls would love it because it's really aimed at a younger demographic.

[Kamino Neko]

2 points:

You're making claims about Peeg when the only stories involving her you read were humourous stories written almost 20 years ago (none of the characters were at their best in those books), and explained away later on (her (assumed at the time to be magical) nature gave her an allergy to the soda she drank). Not a good thing to do. She's always been strong-willed and outspoken, but 'bitchy' is a blip on her personality scale.

Two, you're making rather condescending comments about real women, as well as fictional ones.

'Any self-respecting woman' would be 'disgusted' by a little bit of light cheesecake? Not any that I know (that's including my last two girlfriends, my best friends, my mother, and my grandmother). Turned off of the book, perhaps, but disgusted, no.

I'm going to assume the bit about insecurity and small tits was just ill-phrased and you believe neither that every small-chested girl is insecure, or every insecure girl has a small chest.

Peeg and Supergirl are dressed like sluts? Their costumes are a little on the revealing side for street-wear, but hardly slutty. (Which is something I'm loath to call a woman, anyway.) This is especially bizzare since you mentioned you think Wonder Woman is a great role model, and she shows as much skin as Peeg - it's just that it's a different part of her boobs that is visible - and more skin that's usually covered than Supergirl, whose breasts are covered completely by her top (although her tummy is bared).

And, again, Ystin isn't any better a role-model than any other female character based on the features you're assuming are important.

Yeah, not every girl has big tits like Peeg. And Ystin doesn't show as much skin as her or Wondie. But 3/4 issues of Shining Knight, Ystin was thought to be a man. 'You have to deny your femaleness to be powerful' is as destructive a lesson as 'you have to have big tits and be slutty to get respect as a woman'.

Now, I don't think Ystin actually teaches that lesson - but nor does Peeg, or any of the other characters who show a lot of skin tech the other (at least not in DC or Marvel's books, currently. Some of the lesser companies are run by sexist yahoos).

Variety is a good thing, but just because a character inserts a little more variety doesn't make her better than the other characters.

I once thought like you. Then I had some mature relationships - romantic/sexual, friendly and familial - with adult women - confident, insecure, supermodel gorgeous, frumpy, outgoing, introverted, large breasted, small breasted, all of them in various combinations - and I realised I was being as sexist and condescending as the 'BIG TITS ROOL!' types.

[Kyle Rayner1]

Okay, you were right when I made the generalization that girls with small tits are insecure and I aploigize I misphrased it but I'm only 18 but I have had mature realtionships too with two girls in my lifetime so I don't appreciate you saying "I've had relationships but you haven't so I know better," if you weren't doing that I apoligize it's late so maybe I misread it.

Anyway back to the topic at hand, I meant Ystin doesn't slut herself around like Powergirl or Supergirl does. When I admitted to my ex-girlfriend I liked comics and showed her some female characters she was turned off on how Powergirl used her sexuality to try to impress the guys instead of being herself. She has no personality and I have read some JSA comics and she still acts like a bitch. She just acts like the typical tough girl I see all the time in blockbuster movies. Ystin is tough, also, but she's subtler about it and she doesn't flaunt herself off to the guys like the others too. The cool thing about Ystin that she was "thought to be a man" because she proved herself to be an individual instead of someone with just big tits who dress up in a pervert suit. Ystin actually wears real clothes you would wear unlike PG and SG who wear outfits designed for a strip club.

Wonder Woman is an UN ambassador and she's actually written well in her book so she is a good role model for young girls I just think Ystin is better because girls won't have to puke up their food to stay skinnier or try to get breast implants to realize they can count as people without the extra baggage and I think Ystin is a perfect example of that.

[Kamino Neko]

Anyway back to the topic at hand, I meant Ystin doesn't slut herself around like Powergirl or Supergirl does.

You're doing it again.

Comments like this, and calling Power Girl, as she's currently portrayed, a bitch, are incredibly sexist. Strong-willed and outspoken do not equal bitchy. And 'slutty' is an inappropriate term to apply to pretty much anyone, and it's doubly so for PG and SG, since neither of them displays any of the qualities that are actually part of the definition (sexist and insulting as it is) of 'slut'.

The cool thing about Ystin that she was "thought to be a man" because she proved herself to be an individual instead of someone with just big tits who dress up in a pervert suit.

She was thought to be a man because she lacked anything of the feminine. She looked like a man. She acted like a man. She was different than the original Sir Justin (who really is a man) only in subtle ways before she was revealed to be female. She is not 'an individual', any more than Peeg or Supergirl are - she is a completely average 'male' character - it just turned out she wasn't actually a male.

'Pervert suit'...sheesh, go to a beach or waterpark, kid.

You're making extremely insulting generalizations about women, to support your (incorrect) claim that Ystin is a better character, a better role model, and that women would like her better than Peeg, or Black Canary, or whoever.

She's no better, and no worse than a more feminine character, or a character with bigger breats, or a more overtly sexual character.

A woman can have big breasts, or show skin without being a slut.

A woman can be outspoken without being a bitch.

A woman can be feminine without being weak.

A woman can also be masculine, and still be a woman.

[Kamino Neko]

I just think Ystin is better because girls won't have to puke up their food to stay skinnier or try to get breast implants to realize they can count as people without the extra baggage and I think Ystin is a perfect example of that.

Addressing this point:

Once again, if Diana is going to make girls get eating disorders or plastic surgery because they think that's what needs to be done to be taken seriously, then by the same logic, Ystin's denial of all things feminine is going to have an equally destructive effect - the lesson from her, if the lesson from Diana is 'Big boobs == taken seriously! Get implants!', is 'Feminine == not taken seriously! Be like a boy!'

I can guarantee you, you know at least as many girls who'd have a harder time living up to Ystin than Wonder Woman as vice versa.

Having Ystin, Diana, Peeg, Black Canary, Oracle, Batgirl, Black Alice, and all these other diverse female characters - with ranges of appearance, personality, ranging from the boyish to the girly, from confident to insecure, highly sexed to almost sexless (I could go on, but all the various scales I could compare them on is rather a long list) - is a good thing, both as far as simply having interesting characters, and as far as having role-models go.

[E-Sabbath]

Truth be told, Power Girl is one of the first real feminist characters in comics. Back in the late 70s, when she showed up in All-Star, she _was_ dealing with issues that few other characters were. How to make your way in a world full of men older, with more experience, and who, truthfully, know more than you, while still finding out who _you_ are as yourself, without falling into the mold they make for you.

She's always been a little insecure on the inside, and a lot of bravado on the outside. She's known she's never been as strong as the 'other' Supergirl since before Crisis. She's always been second best... but she's never once defined herself in relation to Superman, as a shadow. She's taken him as an ideal to live up to, sure, but she's not a reflection.

This recent miniseries has really taken a lot from her first appearances... and her later ones, too, but they've defined the character as well as she's ever been.

Justin does things as well as any man.
Wonder Woman does things better.

Power Girl is who she is. Doesn't deny it, either. I'd have to say she's the best use of huge breasts in comics. It's a strange statement, but if you want to express sexuality, it's the simplest artistic shorthand. And in a world of heroines, hers get noticed, commented on, dealt with, in the positive and negative ways. It's odd to be celebrating a treatment of big breasts, but she's the opposite of the Image/Liefeld types. They simply make her more real, not less so.

[Menocchio]

You know, Ystin is a Grant Morrison character. It may very well be that "she's" not just masquerading as a man, but is actually transgendered. Morrison's done it before.

In which case it would be impolite (or at least it would be if Ystin was real) to call Ystin "her" or to think about him as a female.

There's not enough evidence to support that yet. Ystin hasn't been in the 21st century long enough to see that masquerading as a male isn't strictly necessary, let along react to that fact, but it's still a very real possiblity.

[DocCathode]

What Tengu said.

Let's go back to the 1920's in a rare non-deathray-related trip. The flapper cut her hair short, like a man. She drank like a man. She cursed like a man. She smoked like a man. She bound her breasts to look like a man.

A woman needing to dress and behave like a man in order to be taken seriously is a bad thing.


Re Powergirl And Supergirl

So Kyle Rayner1 you want women to be confident and empowered, but if they dress in a manner you don't like they're sluts?

[Wolfian]

This (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=324023) earlier conversation maybe enlightening. I stand by my comments in that thread:

Sexy women are great with a good story backing them. I'm a Power Girl fan, not because of her head sized boobs, but because she's a bad-ass (telling Captain Marvel to STFU in a recent JSA, threatening to snap Kyle Rayner's neck when she thought he was oggling her). I'm a Supergirl fan, not because she's a stunning blonde with eyes you could get lost in, but because the reunion story with Supes was awesome and because her powers rival (occassional top ) the Man of Steel's. The same goes for Aspen, another Michael Turner beauty, and Jade (anyone else read the Ghosts of X-mas Past issue of Green Lantern [#111?]? One of the best comics I have ever read.). Of course the boobs, eyes, etc. help, but I'd read and love the comics without them. Heck, the artist drawing the Outsiders, the only book one can find Jade in now, sucks, but the stories are awesome.

On preview: good points DocCathode. There's a canonical reason for the outfits. As Stargirl said to Supergirl in Supergirl #1 "I'm glad to see you went with the bare mid-drift. It keeps the guys eyes off our fists." As for Power Girl (minor spoiler for JSA: Classified #2)

When PG was designing her costume she wanted a logo on her chest (ala Supes) but couldn't think of anything, so she left an opening there to be filled eventually. She still hasn't found her place.

[SkipMagic]

For those of you confused, I edited the thread title to warn of an open spoiler.

[Kyle Rayner1]

Hey DocCathode, I love it when women dress like that but they shouldn't dress like that if they're a superhero. Would you want women cops or soldiers having the choice to dress like Powergirl or Supergirl? In public, hell yeah, but not when they're doing a job like protecting the public.

Like I said, Ystin is a breath of fresh air because she looks like she takes her job seriously unlike the other two. She actually dresses up for fight instead of dressing up for the mall.

Tell me those Ian Chruchill Supergirl covers wouldn't (if girls liked comics) make a bad impression on girls. A cover like that could do serious damage if a girl was easily impressionable or was a mental defective in some way.

[Askia]

Kyle Rayner 1: I don't get it, man. Why are oppressing women's ta-tas, man?

I don't understand the mindset of a narrow-minded person like you who wants to keep them locked up, out of sight, constricted, man.

Set 'em free!

[Scott Plaid]

Hey DocCathode, I love it when women dress like that but they shouldn't dress like that if they're a superhero. Would you want women cops or soldiers having the choice to dress like Powergirl or Supergirl? In public, hell yeah, but not when they're doing a job like protecting the public.Same to you, buddy. Evertime I see you, you are wearing what looks like a skintight latex suit. Not very professional at all. You keep on saying it is more flexable than leather or pants, and it allows you to roof jump. However, you can fly! Why do you need to jump from roof to roof. And why does it need to so shiny?


. . . . . . . . .

No, wait, that's Kyle Radner
, the current Green Lantern. :smack:

[middleman]

As a former superhero comic reader, I have no real input on the serious minded debate about the role of titties in crime-fighting. However, I have a question about the revelation:

Are you really telling me that the ORIGINAL Silent Knight (Sir Justin, from the All-Star Squadron, Gold Age, etc. etc.) was revealed to be, all along, a WOMAN?

Please lord tell me we are talking about a different character. A NEW Shining Knight!

[Menocchio]

As a former superhero comic reader, I have no real input on the serious minded debate about the role of titties in crime-fighting. However, I have a question about the revelation:

Are you really telling me that the ORIGINAL Silent Knight (Sir Justin, from the All-Star Squadron, Gold Age, etc. etc.) was revealed to be, all along, a WOMAN?

Please lord tell me we are talking about a different character. A NEW Shining Knight!

It's a new character with a nearly identical origin (hence the "Ystin", as the name is rendered in the ancient language of Avalon, to avoid confusion). Apparently, there have been many Camelots, many King Arthurs throughout mythology and history. This one is from an ancient lost age about ten thousand years ago.

[Kamino Neko]

It may very well be that "she's" not just masquerading as a man, but is actually transgendered.

I think if Morrison had intended that, there'd be no 'maybe' about it by the final issue.

If he intends to continue using her in the future he may, in fact, intend that she's TG, but unless and until that reveal comes, I think it's more likely that she's female, if not feminine.

Like I said, Ystin is a breath of fresh air because she looks like she takes her job seriously unlike the other two. She actually dresses up for fight instead of dressing up for the mall.

Ystin doesn't look like she takes her job seriously any more than Peeg, Supergirl, or even Huntress or Starfire (two examples of revealing costumes I don't like - both are ugly, and I've seen Starfire's referred to as armour more than once, despite not covering anything vital, which is something that ticks me off).

She wears armour because she's a knight.

She wears armour that covers everything, because that's how normal, knightly armour's designed - because that's what makes it effective.

Putting Peeg or Supergirl in full armour would have about the same effect on them as putting them in a burlap sack. They can take more punishment than the armour would, and then some. They have no need for it, so why should they wear it? Because you think they'd look more 'serious'? They'd look like idiots.

Now, the fact that she's wearing armour that really IS armour is a point in her favour, designwise over, say, Starfire, or whatever other 'chainmail bikini/plate thong' character who claims to be wearing armour, but really isn't.

But, that's a very different matter than characters who aren't wearing armour, and make no claim to be.

You claimed Peeg and Supergirl are 'slutty'. Now you're just saying it's 'not dressed for a fight', which is certainly an improvement.

Still...how is what they're wearing any worse for that than, say, Superman or Wildcat? Hell, Wildcat is a type who could use some armour. Their costumes are every bit as impractical, and, while their skin is all covered, it's covered by skin-tight tights that don't leave much more question as to how they're built.

The lot of them are dressed for Superheroics - part of the genre's style is ridiculously impractical costumes.

[Wolfian]

Same to you, buddy. Evertime I see you, you are wearing what looks like a skintight latex suit. Not very professional at all. You keep on saying it is more flexable than leather or pants, and it allows you to roof jump. However, you can fly! Why do you need to jump from roof to roof. And why does it need to so shiny?


. . . . . . . . .

No, wait, that's Kyle Radner
, the current Green Lantern. :smack:
Psst. The guy you're thinking of is Kyle Rayner. There's 3604 current GLs (in theory) as the Corps are back (3605 if you count Alan). The skintight suit is classic Lantern (though Kyle put his own twists on it). What can I say? The Guadarians are pervs.
I've seen Starfire's referred to as armour more than once, despite not covering anything vital, which is something that ticks me off.
Tameranians have lungs in their chests and hearts in their pubic areas. Duh. :p

[Scott Plaid]

Psst. The guy you're thinking of is Kyle Rayner. There's 3604 current GLs (in theory) as the Corps are back (3605 if you count Alan). The skintight suit is classic Lantern (though Kyle put his own twists on it). What can I say? The Guadarians are pervs.D'oh! I searched for the name the way I thought it was spelled, and the sites I came across did not contradict me. Too bad that simply means misspelings is widespread.

[Kamino Neko]

Tameranians have lungs in their chests and hearts in their pubic areas. Duh. :p

I think most Humanoid species keep their lungs in their chests. ;)

But wait...those aren't mammaries?

Man, how long can that girl hold her breath?

:D

[DocCathode]

Hey DocCathode, I love it when women dress like that but they shouldn't dress like that if they're a superhero.

If they are invulnerable or nigh invulnerable what does it matter what they wear? You could empty an AK-47 in Supergirl's face or set off a live grenade in Powergirl's mouth.

Would you want women cops or soldiers having the choice to dress like Powergirl or Supergirl? In public, hell yeah, but not when they're doing a job like protecting the public.

If they are invulnerable, why not?

And why haven't you complained about superheroes who show skin?

Namor, prince of Atlantis, has been representing and defending his people in a speedo for decades now. (Namor is nigh invulnerable, but since you complained about two women who are invulnerable, I don't see why that should stop you.)

Hawkman spent how many decades running around wearing suspenders but no shirt? He's not remotely invulnerable.

Black Condor- Speedos and a cape.

Specter-(the Jim Corrigan version) He's got all that power, but seems to lack the power to cover his skin. Hooded cape, gloves, speedos, slippers.

Iron Fist- A truly plunging neckline.

Beast- Speedos. I understand he wants maximum flexibility. But, he's a publicly known mutant with a PhD. He can't call up Reed Richards and have him whip something up?

Like I said, Ystin is a breath of fresh air because she looks like she takes her job seriously unlike the other two. She actually dresses up for fight instead of dressing up for the mall.

She isn't invulnerable. More, she's a knight. Knights wear armor. Should non-invulnerable heroes and heroines wear armor? Absolutely. Most do. The average costume only looks like spandex but is actually lined with armor made from a composite kevlar/unobtanium fabric.

Tell me those Ian Chruchill Supergirl covers wouldn't (if girls liked comics)

Wow, another blanket statement about girls.

make a bad impression on girls. A cover like that could do serious damage if a girl was easily impressionable or was a mental defective in some way.

"mental defective"? Didn't that phrase become obsolete sometime in the fifties?

[DrFidelius]

"mental defective"? Didn't that phrase become obsolete sometime in the fifties?

Dr Wertham! Please pick up a call on Line 2!

[Wolfian]

<snip>or set off a live grenade in Powergirl's mouth.
: Bites tongue. Wanders off to write fan fiction. :

[Kamino Neko]

Iron Fist- A truly plunging neckline.

Same for almost every other male character in the 70s. Truely those were dark times.

Of course, he has nothing on 1970s Cosmic Boy (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/Nekogami/Comics%20Random/Costumes/PoorCos.jpg). (Who had probably the most ugly costume of all time as well as showing more skin than...just about anyone this side of Phantom Lady.)

[Kyle Rayner1]

You're right the guys shouldn't be dressing like gay porn stars (nothing wrong with that) either. The girls if they read comics would probably copy off Supergirl's model of dress than a boy going to scholl dressed up like Namor. I don't think they would dress up like Iron Fist, either besides on Halloween.

Huh? DocCathode? Saying most girls don't like comics is a "blanket statement"? Most of them don't like comics from my personal experience and from a lot of people's. Where am I wrong?

Oh and I don't care if a girl dresses up like Supergirl in high school (minus cape) that would be hot actually (I'm 18 not a pervert). I'm more talking about girls of younger ages like 7-13 maybe 14 mateers how mature the girl is.

[Hey, It's That Guy!]

Huh? DocCathode? Saying most girls don't like comics is a "blanket statement"? Most of them don't like comics from my personal experience and from a lot of people's. Where am I wrong?

You're wrong. So very wrong. Ever heard of manga?

[Silentgoldfish]

You're wrong. So very wrong. Ever heard of manga?

Yeah but where are they staying away from in droves? And could it be because it's rare for a female superhero NOT to dress up like a cheap stripper?

I'm not saying women are going to be influenced by female superhero costumes (now THAT's just silly, Kyle!) but I do think that if a girl actually braves a comic book shop (something I'm loath to do so more power to them :)) and they see a comic book with the new Super-girl on the front they're faily likely to roll their eyes and go to the next one and leave the heads of Marvel/DC scratching their heads even more, wondering how to get more female readers.

My superhero name is Syntax, master of the run-on sentence!

[Kyle Rayner1]

I meant little girls could be influenced.

[Silentgoldfish]

I meant little girls could be influenced.

Little girls aren't reading superhero comics though. First you worry about readership, then you worry about influence! :)

[Kyle Rayner1]

Good point. You're the first one to get me to admit I misspoke check out my Pit thread for proof. ;)

[Kamino Neko]

I'm laughing my ass off at the idea that this (http://www3.telus.net/freeloader/wallpapers/Supergirl_NEW_byTurner_1024X768.jpg) is stripper attire, or even particularly unusual or inappropriate for girls in Supergirl's age group.

Even Power Girl's costume (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/Nekogami/Comics%20Random/Covers/JSAClassified01page00b.jpg), which shows part of her breasts (Gasp!) shows less skin than you'll see on an average beach, let alone a strip club.

Black Canary? Wonder Woman? I'd look twice at any woman wearing their costumes on the street, but I certainly wouldn't think it was inappropriate - just a little odd.

Zatanna...I've been to magic shows...I've seen female magicians and magician's assistants wearing exactly her costume (the less super-heroey one).

On the other hand, eventually we get to Starfire (http://www.titanstower.com/source/whoswho/starfire.html), who does wear a costume, in the current comics, that would be better suited for a strip club than walking down the street. Its real sin, however, is being damned fugly. (The current version is a little more revealing than the one in the above link.)

Kory's also unabashedly sexual. Is she a slut? Not at all, but she does acknowledge, and enjoy, her sexuality. I can't fault that as a lesson, to be honest. She's rather more...exhuberant about than I'd be comfortable seeing a younger girl expressing herself, but even so, I can't say 'Oh, they shouldn't be portraying Kory like that, because girls will get the wrong idea!', because there's nothing wrong with Kory being the way she is (because she's not a kid, and therefor there's no creepy element to it) and if she's the only influence a girl's getting about her sexuality, then there's something worse than how a comic book character acts going on. And the idea that Kory's costume would put off female readers... Well, if DC decided to have Adam Hughs do the covers of Outsiders or Teen Titans, and he did a cheesecake shot of Kory every issue, then I could see it. Not the way she is used, though. And the same would hold if it was cheesecake shots of Wonder Girl, Jade, Speedy, or Raven, too, despite none of them wearing particularly revealing costumes.

Starfire's costume bugs me doubly, because she, for a time, wore this little number (http://www.fanzing.com/images/imgs30/starfire.jpg), which, completely aside from being less revealing is also fairly attractive.

[Silentgoldfish]

I'm laughing my ass off at the idea that this (http://www3.telus.net/freeloader/wallpapers/Supergirl_NEW_byTurner_1024X768.jpg) is stripper attire, or even particularly unusual or inappropriate for girls in Supergirl's age group.

Even Power Girl's costume (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/Nekogami/Comics%20Random/Covers/JSAClassified01page00b.jpg), which shows part of her breasts (Gasp!) shows less skin than you'll see on an average beach, let alone a strip club.

Black Canary? Wonder Woman? I'd look twice at any woman wearing their costumes on the street, but I certainly wouldn't think it was inappropriate - just a little odd.

But they're not walking down the street. They're fighting crime/badguys/whatever. Even the invulnerable ones look silly doing it in those outfits. Superman has everything covered but his head, Batman, his chin. These Superheroines all seem to think that it's more appropriate to combat evil while wearing a bathing suit. Or that the best thing to wear while you're flying over everyone's head is a miniskirt.

[Kamino Neko]

But they're not walking down the street. They're fighting crime/badguys/whatever. Even the invulnerable ones look silly doing it in those outfits. Superman has everything covered but his head, Batman, his chin.

...

Excuse me while I pick myself up off the floor and stop laughing my ASS off.

Do you SERIOUSLY think that Superman or Batman look LESS ridiculous running around in their costumes than Supergirl or Peeg?

Sure they look a little silly. So do the boys. And I'd say that more of the girls wear costumes that, minus capes or masks (and any weapons), could be taken as street clothes than boys. (Supergirl, Stargirl, Hawkgirl, Grace Choi, some of Black Canary's costumes, as opposed to...well, all I can think of is the current Mr Terriffic and original Flash. This is off the top of my head. And surprisingly JSA-heavy. If I decided to go through my collection I could no doubt find several other examples for both sexes.)

And skintight, contour-hugging spandex isn't really any less 'revealing' than actual skin, on that note.

And what happened to 'stripper outfits', hmm?

[Silentgoldfish]

And what happened to 'stripper outfits', hmm?

*shrug*. They still look like stripper outfits. If I'm not saying that every post it doesn't make it any less true.

Yeah, the boys look silly too. They just look less silly than the girls. There's a difference between skintight spandex and spandex covering only the essentials.

Course, I'm also critical of the way they're drawn. Note how Catwoman looks as plausible as a character like that gets in the first 25 issues of her current series. Then in issue 26 she's back to looking like a stripper.

[Kamino Neko]

They still look like stripper outfits. If I'm not saying that every post it doesn't make it any less true.

The fact that you're failing to defend the statement speaks volumes about the veracity of it. Almost as much as the fact that I actually showed pictures of the characters in question to demonstrate it's ridiculous on the face of it.

[Silentgoldfish]

The fact that you're failing to defend the statement speaks volumes about the veracity of it. Almost as much as the fact that I actually showed pictures of the characters in question to demonstrate it's ridiculous on the face of it.

I'm not sure how I'm failing to defend my statement. All anyone has to do is look at what they're wearing. No amount of rationalising by you will beat that.

[Kamino Neko]

You're KIDDING, right?

You MUST be kidding.

Because if you're seriously saying that Supergirl, or Power Girl (or any but a handful of mainstream superheroines and villainesses) are wearing clothing that even comes CLOSE to a stripper's working clothes, or show more skin than you'll see visiting a beach, or going down a city street on a warm day, I have to ask why you haven't left your home - or turned on a television set or opened a magazine - for the last 40 years.

I've provided pictures of the characters in question...and, hey, here's a cover from Cosmo (http://www.spytechagency.com/images/Cosmo9804.jpg) - a magazine aimed at women, just for comparison.

Cosmo Girl (http://www.magazines-now.com/magazine-subscriptions/5/womens/cosmopolitan-magazine.html) Supergirl (http://www3.telus.net/freeloader/wallpapers/Supergirl_NEW_byTurner_1024X768.jpg)

Cosmo Girl (http://www.hairboutique.com/images/cosmojune.jpg) Power Girl (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/Nekogami/Comics%20Random/Covers/JSAClassified01page00b.jpg)

So...Who's in the more revealing outfits? The superheroines or the models in the women's magazine?

Retract the 'stripper outfit' joke of an argument, and try to salvage some semblance of sense for your case.

[Kamino Neko]

Just to head off the inevetable - I'm not claiming that Cosmo models wear ordinary clothes, just that women actually read magazines that show far more skin than any but the most revealing mainstream superheroine costumes - we're talking Starfire and Phantom Lady levels.

[Silentgoldfish]

I'm sorry, but are you even reading your own words? You're comparing Superheroines to cover models.

You seem to be trying to have some sort of Picard/Kirk internet geekfight with me here, I'm not trying to argue anything.

I'm just pointing out the obvious.

[Silentgoldfish]

By the way, my sisters first (and only) comment upon me showing her that pic of Powergirl you linked to: "Superheroines are too busy fighting crime to go out and get a bikini wax!"

[Kamino Neko]

I'm reading my own words - are you? Or even your own?

You're claiming a stripper will wear this (http://www3.telus.net/freeloader/wallpapers/Supergirl_NEW_byTurner_1024X768.jpg).

You're claiming that an average woman would be turned away by this (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/Nekogami/Comics%20Random/Covers/JSAClassified01page00b.jpg).

A crop-top and a short-ish skirt (or shorts) are something you'll see on the street, or a sports field, not on a strip club stage.

The skirt might be a little longer, but the top might actually show some cleavage. Won't have a cape, though.

http://www.blueprintsolution.com/store/fitcommerce/Dallas_Cheerleader1.jpg
http://www.marshassportswear.com/twirl_pages/crop_tank.html

Bare legs and a little bit of cleavage, you'll find at any beach, or even on the street on a really warm day, and Peeg is completely covered compared to women on magazines that are aimed at women and bought in huge numbers by that demographic.

Your 'obvious' statement is factually incorrect, insulting to the intelligence of anyone you expect to buy it, and sexist in its supposed implications.

[Kamino Neko]

By the way, my sisters first (and only) comment upon me showing her that pic of Powergirl you linked to: "Superheroines are too busy fighting crime to go out and get a bikini wax!"

Your sister has a clever sense of humour. I applaud her.

The fact that you seem to think that it proves your point is almost as amusing as her comment itself.

[Silentgoldfish]

Let's play a game I like to call "Guess if it's a superhero or a condom packet."

Ready? Let's begin.

Girl 1 (http://www3.telus.net/freeloader/wallpapers/Supergirl_NEW_byTurner_1024X768.jpg)
Girl 2 (http://www.thexton.com.au/product_images/large/AN-260541.jpg)

[Kamino Neko]

I see your point. At least I think I do. Because the point you appear to be trying to make is ridiculously weak.

The fact that a condom manufacturer saw fit to include a picture of an attractive girl in a crop top on a condom packet doesn't suddenly make crop tops slutty stripper wear.

Hell, by your logic the New England Patriots football team are strippers, because their logo is very similar to that used by Tojan condoms.

And, of course, that's just the lack of internal logic of your own argument, not the fact that I've shown the sort of outfit Supergirl's wearing - sometimes showing more skin! - in innocent everyday contexts.

Your arguments are getting weaker every time you make one.

[Silentgoldfish]

Once again I wasn't actually arguing in the first place. Youre the one trying to make it into an argument and I have better things to do. All I'm saying is that many superheroines wear ridiculously skimpy outfits that end up making them look more like strippers than superheros.

Male superheros usually wear silly outfits too, but they're not ridiculously oversexualised.

The fact that real world examples you're using are Cosmo covergirls and beachware sort of prove yourself wrong.

[Kamino Neko]

The fact that real world examples you're using are Cosmo covergirls and beachware sort of prove yourself wrong.

Oh, I see the light!

OF COURSE women are turned off by Cosmo.

OF COURSE bathing suits (and cheeleader uniforms, and dance costumes, and the crop-tops and shorts that every third female between the ages of 16 and 30 wear whenever the weather allows, and half a dozen other completely innocent outfits) are stripper outfits.

What a crock.

And, yes, you ARE arguing a point.

Or have you forgotten that you've made the following comments:

Yeah but where are they staying away from in droves? And could it be because it's rare for a female superhero NOT to dress up like a cheap stripper?

I do think that if a girl actually braves a comic book shop (something I'm loath to do so more power to them ) and they see a comic book with the new Super-girl on the front they're faily likely to roll their eyes and go to the next one and leave the heads of Marvel/DC scratching their heads even more, wondering how to get more female readers.

Neither one of these is 'stating the obvious'. The first is stating an opinion, and supporting it with an incorrect supposedly factual statement. The second is stating an opinion and failing to support it at all.

Claiming that you're not arguing a point does not remove the onus of proving supposedly factual points, or supporting opinions.

So. Again. Are you going to retract your claim, or are you going to back it up with something other than counter-factual opinions, and claims that you're not arguing anything?

If you do the former, good on you. If the latter, I'll be happy to continue this discussion. If you take option #3 - continue claiming you're making factual comments, and refusing to back them up at all, then I'm done with you. Dishonesty reflects badly on you.

[Silentgoldfish]

Surveys done for the Minnesota Comic Book Association in 2000 and the Phoenix Cactus Comicon in 2003 and 2004 indicate that females comprise at most thirty percent of comic book readers, and perhaps less.
http://www.comicsworthreading.com/blog/2005/04/chick-check-returns.html


OF COURSE women are turned off by Cosmo."
Cosmo covergirls aren't fighting crime.


OF COURSE bathing suits (and cheeleader uniforms, and dance costumes, and the crop-tops and shorts that every third female between the ages of 16 and 30 wear whenever the weather allows, and half a dozen other completely innocent outfits) are stripper outfits.

They're far more likely to be found in a strip club than on a crime fighter.

[Kamino Neko]

Your link doesn't support your point, I'm afraid.

It supports the completely non-contraversial fact that female readers don't read American comics very often. If I've given the impression that I'm denying that fact, I apologise for my lack of clarity.

Unfortunately, it makes no claims as to why this is. The only 'why' it addresses at all is why there are fewer females in the industry than you'd expect - the statistic you quoted is not the point of the article, it's a data point leading to a discussion of whether there is discrimination against females in the industry.

I'll see if I can dig up some actual stats on the matter (I'm not promising anything...my google fu is weak.), but from my experience, a bigger reason for the disparity than the fact that some female comic characters - mostly from companies like Image, or other lesser companies - are sexist stereotypes with their T&A played up for all they're worth; is the general perception that comics - particularly superhero comics, but all comics save manga - are a boys only club - a perception that a lot of fans and store owners have, and act on, which makes it worse, because a lot of potential female fans who (in general, rightly) dismiss the 'boys' club' and decide to give American comics a try, will walk right into it.

Yes, the other does play a part. I've never denied it, and again apologise if I haven't been clear on that point. But the fact that characters like...well, almost every female character created by Rob Liefeld, for instance, are offensive sexist stereotypes, to play to sexist fanboy fantasies, other characters like, say, Adam Warren's version of the Dirty Pair, are 'offensive sexist stereotypes' for purposes of humour (not at the expense of women, but at the expense of the stereotypes) and parody (although someone casually glancing at a DP could be forgiven for missing this aspect of it) and other characters, such as Starfire, could be mistaken for OSSs by someone who happened to judge the book by it's cover... This fact doesn't mean that any other female character who isn't covered chin to toes is an OSS, nor does it mean an average woman who walks into a GOOD comic store (like the one I go to) and won't be made to feel unwelcome by a creepy owner and patrons, will perceive them as such. And here, we see again, that the 'no girls allowed' attitude of a certain part of the fandom plays a huge role in the problem.

Nor, to address the point Kyle's made that you believe to be irrelevant, does this make them bad role-models for young female readers who happen to read the books.

A potential female reader who saw, say, Genie (http://perso.wanadoo.fr/extremegenesis/ageniepinup.jpg) on a cover may quite understandably (and correctly) pass it by as sexist crap (or, she may know that other, better portrayed, female characters also suffer from bad costumes and cheesecake covers, and give it a chance. The poor girl would be disappointed, in this case, however, since this IS Liefeld.), but it doesn't follow that she would feel the same way about Supergirl.

[Bathing suits, cheerleader uniforms, et al are] far more likely to be found in a strip club than on a crime fighter.

This is true, in the real world.

But in the real world, so would be Batman's costume. There's a non-zero chance of any of the outfits in question showing up in either context, but the chances are rather better in a strip club.

The point I'm attempting to make is two-fold.

1) In the real world, they're also far less likely to be found in a strip club than out.

and

2) We're not talking about the real world. We're talking about a world where ridiculous and impractical costumes, the only real rationality behind which is that they look good, are the norm for both sexes.

A vanishingly small (But non-zero) number of superheroines from the big two, and a slightly larger number from the smaller companies, dress like strippers. A vanishingly small number of male heroes also do.

More wear outfits that could be seen on the streets any time the weather allows. The same, again, applies to a smaller number of male characters.

Still others wear outfits you'd expect to see on a beach. Yes, a few of the boys, too.

A handful wear costumes more suited to fashion show runways than anywhere else at all. I...can't think of any male characters who fit in this group.

Most characters of both sexes wear outfits that will only exist in superhero comics. Some of those are revealing to differing extents (for both sexes), some aren't.

A potential female reader, if put off by the fact that what Supergirl or Power Girl, or Black Canary, or Mary Marvel, or whichever superheroine wears is a really odd choice for fighting crime, would more than likely have the same reaction to Superman, or Green Lantern, or Batman, or Green Arrow. Conversely, a female reader who's not put off by Superman wouldn't likely have a problem with Supergirl. I'll grant that some potential female readers will have the disproportionate response against the less extreme female costumes, but they are, in my experience, a minority. The costumes are all silly, and inappropriate for crime fighting. But they're part of the genre, and most potential female readers accept or reject it for both sexes.

Another point that I'm not sure why I (or another poster) haven't addressed before. The OP claims to be speaking of female comic characters, period. But this thread has, thus far, been restricted to superheroines - DC especially.

Once you leave the realm of superheroics (which, although a dominant genre, as far as sales go, is way behind in sheer number of titles available), the concept that potential female readers would be put off by the sexist portrayals of the female becomes even weaker - although, granted, it still doesn't fade to complete ridiculousness.

I've never claimed, although I'll grant I can't entirely fault the perception that I have, that there are no badly portrayed female characters in comics. There are. And even characters generally portrayed well have occasionally been handled badly. My claim is just that the majority of the characters from the biggest companies don't fit into that group, and Ystin isn't better, in that respect, than most.

Ystin has the potential to be handled badly, just like Power Girl. Just like Power Girl can be portrayed as a bimbo good for nothing but her tits, Ystin can be used in a way that supports the idea that a woman cannot be strong without becoming a man in all but anatomy. Hell, even Genie has the potential to be handled WELL with the right creative team behind her. (I'm not holding my breath, mind, and said team will most likely give her a new costume, but the potential exists.)

And, now that the frustration has been alleviated, I apologise for the rather high levels of sarcasm in some of my earlier posts - although the points I was trying to make still stand, and thank you for taking my advice to heart, even if I wasn't giving it in the most tactful way.

[Silentgoldfish]

My whole point, and the pictures back me up far more than any lengthy posts by you will accomplish, is that even for superheros in a fictional universe superheroines are ridiculously oversexualised.

They're wearing outfits that look like they were picked for sex appeal first, and looks/symbolism far second. Not only that but where the men are all muscled like Mr Universe competitors, they almost all have the bodies of supermodels with implants.

If you want to go beyond superheroines, I was enjoying Queen and Country where the lead was a fairly realistic female spy, who looked and acted the part. Then they changed artists, and BAM, she looked like a barbie doll and she was going into situations wearing a net shirt over a black bra.

[DocCathode]

You're right the guys shouldn't be dressing like gay porn stars (nothing wrong with that) either. The girls if they read comics would probably copy off Supergirl's model of dress than a boy going to scholl dressed up like Namor. I don't think they would dress up like Iron Fist, either besides on Halloween.

Huh? DocCathode? Saying most girls don't like comics is a "blanket statement"? Most of them don't like comics from my personal experience and from a lot of people's. Where am I wrong?

You're wrong in claiming that you said "Most girls don't like comics". What you actually said certainly was a blanket statement made without qualifiers

. Tell me those Ian Chruchill Supergirl covers wouldn't (if girls liked comics) make a bad impression on girls. A cover like that could do serious damage if a girl was easily impressionable or was a mental defective in some way. from post #22

You did not say 'If more girls liked comics'. You simply said "girls".

Oh and I don't care if a girl dresses up like Supergirl in high school (minus cape) that would be hot actually (I'm 18 not a pervert). I'm more talking about girls of younger ages like 7-13 maybe 14 mateers how mature the girl is.

Again, you have added qualifiers not found in your original statements.

SilentGoldfish

I see croptops on the streets of Philadelphia fairly often. Many women of Generation X seem to like them. Manufacturers have responded by making croptops featuring logos from Thundercats, GI Joe, He Man, Strawberry Shortcake, Rainbow Brite and other cartoons of our youth.

Re Starfire

I mentioned this to a friend and she (That's right. I said she. Her apartment is strewn with comic books and action figures.) said that she thought it was because Tamaranian society had different views on nudity. When she said that, I remembered a scene of her tearful father welcoming Kori home. He's wearing a crown, jeweled bracelets, sandals, a cape, and a kilt that doesn't reach his knees. More research is needed, but preliminary finidngs indicate that most Tamaranians show a lot of skin and that they do not consider this improper or sexual.

[Silentgoldfish]

SilentGoldfish

I see croptops on the streets of Philadelphia fairly often. Many women of Generation X seem to like them. Manufacturers have responded by making croptops featuring logos from Thundercats, GI Joe, He Man, Strawberry Shortcake, Rainbow Brite and other cartoons of our youth.


It's less the croptop and more the apparant thought that a micro mini on someone who can and does fly is a good idea. . .

[Kamino Neko]

I see croptops on the streets of Philadelphia fairly often. Many women of Generation X seem to like them. Manufacturers have responded by making croptops featuring logos from Thundercats, GI Joe, He Man, Strawberry Shortcake, Rainbow Brite and other cartoons of our youth.

Thank god...I was beginning to think that I was going insane thinking I'd seen non-strippers wearing the things.

(Not really, but it's nice to have someone else acknowledging the point.)

Crop tops also get paired shorts that bare most of the leg (but leave the backside covered - much like Supergirl's skirt) fairly often.

Supergirl's is also a lot less likely to slide or flip up or down and give an accidental flash of boobage than many real crop tops.

I mentioned this to a friend and she (That's right. I said she. Her apartment is strewn with comic books and action figures.) said that she thought it was because Tamaranian society had different views on nudity.

This seems the case from what I've read involving them. They also seem rather more casual concerning sexual relations. The points aren't really connected as such - they don't consider nudity inherantly sexual, although they have a rather relaxed attitude towards both. It's just a matter of them being fairly layed back, and happy to enjoy all the sensations that the universe has to offer them.

I'm almost reluctant to mention that, because I fear it'll be twisted into 'See?? Oversexualised!', but I have enough faith in other people to believe that even if it does, reason will prevail and the idea that sexual == oversexualised will be dismissed.

I just wish her outfit was less all-fired ugly.

[DocCathode]

It's less the croptop and more the apparant thought that a micro mini on someone who can and does fly is a good idea. . .

Why does it matter that it's a "micro mini"? You seem to be implying that men will look up her skirt while she flies. Why would they be unable to do this if it were a longer skirt?

Additionally, what is she wearing under that skirt? In the video for I Feel Like A Woman, Shania Twain wore bicycle shorts under her skirt. They cannot be seen. Prove to me that Supergirl isn't wearing bicycle shorts under her skirt.

If she is just wearing underwear under the skirt, what would you suggest? That she switch to an outfit like Superman's- one with the underwear on the outside?

[Wolfian]

It's less the croptop and more the apparant thought that a micro mini on someone who can and does fly is a good idea. . .
Considering the speed at which she flies and considering the fact that most of the time that she's flying a baddie is trying to destroy a city looking up her skirt is at best impossible and at worst dangerous.

[Burnt Sugar]

I think Silent is annoyed by the fact that the outfits they wear are so impractical. Who would wear an outfit for fighting that exposes so many vulnerable parts of the body? And why aren't they dressed as they "should" be? Because it wouldn't be as attractive to some readers. Because they want to show the women as "sexy". If you deny this then I will be confused.

Silent is turned off by the fact (fact?) that this happens (he would rather it be realistic than show skimpy clothes), so he extrapolates this into guessing that women are also turned off by this.

Just MHO.

I think it all boils down to you guys think it's fine and don't care that it's impractical and Silent does care. He's not trying to argue (IMHO) that people don't wear bikinis on the beach...

[DocCathode]

I think Silent is annoyed by the fact that the outfits they wear are so impractical. Who would wear an outfit for fighting that exposes so many vulnerable parts of the body?

SilentGoldfish has repeatedly mentioned Powergirl and Supergirl. They don't have any vulnerable parts. Powergirl's exposed cleavage is harder than the armor plating on a Sherman tank. Supergirl's navel would be unharmed by multiple Tomahawk missiles.

And why aren't they dressed as they "should" be? Because it wouldn't be as attractive to some readers.

That, and even composite spandex/unobtanium armor would be weaker than their skin.

Because they want to show the women as "sexy". If you deny this then I will be confused.

Most heterosexual male readers want sexy women. IME so do most heterosexual female readers.

Silent is turned off by the fact (fact?) that this happens (he would rather it be realistic than show skimpy clothes), so he extrapolates this into guessing that women are also turned off by this.

Realistic? PG and SG are faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound.

I think it all boils down to you guys think it's fine and don't care that it's impractical and Silent does care.[QUOTE]

I would care if it were impractical. It isn't. Armor piercing rounds will bounce of the teeth of Powergirl and Supergirl. They don't need protective clothing.

[QUOTE] He's not trying to argue (IMHO) that people don't wear bikinis on the beach.

But he is arguing that while it's fine to wear bikinis on the beach, it's wrong for invulnerable superheroines to wear them while fighting crime. He has also called croptops 'stripperwear'.

[cbawlmer]

Wow, this whole thread's gone by without any actual females commenting (as far as I can tell). Let me put an end to that.

I'm a woman. I read comics. In fact, it's likely I read way more comics per month than you do, Kyle. I have a high IQ, a strong personality, and my bra size is size 38F. Hey, it's what nature decided to do. God help anyone who ever underestimates me or dismisses me as a bitch. Or a stripper, as my wardrobe includes some kinda sexy clothes. My husband loves them, but I love them too. I enjoy showing off and feeling attractive. I also know that if I ever got into a brawl, as superheroes are wont to do, I'd have a clear advantage when any guy I had to fight kept staring at my chest and couldn't pay attention to the trauma I was about to inflict on him.

I love Power Girl. I think her character has been really well developed (ha!) in the past several years and I find her complicated, layered, and sympathetic. Sort of like an actual person, you know? I love Wonder Woman too. And Black Canary and Stargirl and most of the others mentioned here.

Do you feel that us busty girls shouldn't have role models? That the ideal girl is one who physically hides the fact that she's a girl? Why can't there be a variety of female characters with a bunch of different personalities and body types? Just like actual girls.

You've mentioned several times that you're 18 years old. No need; it shows. I recommend you listen to the folks here who are trying to straighten you out.

Worst of all, you've said that you don't like Geoff Johns and to a big ol' Johns-loving comic geek like me, them's fightin' words. ;)

[CandidGamera]

I'm disappointed. I am impressed with the OP's ability to inject hyperbole, but that's it.

So. To summarize - this second-rate knockoff of a classic DCU character, this pale copy, this echo - vomited forth from the often fertile but strange backwoods of Grant Morrison's mind - is the best character, ever, in all of the history of fiction dating back to the Greek myths of old - because, without foreshadowing and without any special relevance whatsoever, she is revealed to be female.

Please never see the Crying Game or Victor/Victoria, Kyle - I wouldn't want your head to explode with joy at the sublime revelations contained within.

[Wolfian]

I'm a woman. I read comics.<snip>
I have a high IQ, a strong personality,<snip>
and my bra size is size 38F.<snip>
I love Power Girl.<snip>
Worst of all, you've said that you don't like Geoff Johns and to a big ol' Johns-loving comic geek like me, them's fightin' words. ;)
You had me at "I'm a woman. I read comics." :D

[cbawlmer]

You had me at "I'm a woman. I read comics." :D

And none of them are mangas! I admit I was very popular among our customers during my brief stint as a comic shop clerk. I even married one of those customers, who now manages another location in the chain (is four stores a chain?). The funny thing is, I read way more titles now that I'm married than I did when I actually worked at the store!

I don't post as often as I'd like in the Weekly Comic Book Discussion Threads because I don't usually have enough time to read and post before everyone else gets there, but I read probably 50-60 titles a month.

[Kamino Neko]

I don't post as often as I'd like in the Weekly Comic Book Discussion Threads because I don't usually have enough time to read and post before everyone else gets there

Doesn't stop me. I'm rarely able to get my books until late in the game and I still post!

(I hope you don't mind, but after that description, I'm going to be picturing you as Peeg whenever I read your posts from now on. >_>)

[cbawlmer]

Hey, I'm ok with that. Though it would be somewhat more accurate if I went to the gym more...