Man tortured over tourist map.

[Larry Mudd]

Argh. (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20050906/MAP06/TPFront/TopStories/)

As if the the Maher Arar (http://www.maherarar.ca/) affair weren't bad enough...

In the weeks before 9/11, a Canadian man was stopped at the border to Buffalo, and ended up being flagged as a potential terrorist because the glove compartment of the truck that he was driving contained an old map which indicated several government buildings in Ottawa, including the offices of Atomic Energy of Canada and a Health Canada virus lab -- both of which had since relocated.

The map was produced by the Canadian Department of Public Works and Government Services, and made available to people who needed to, you know, find their way around the place, figure out where to park, that sort of thing.

This probably wouldn't have been a big deal, if the fella's name wasn't Ahmad El Maati.

Even after it became a big deal, you'd think that due diligence for something as serious as a potential terrorist threat would have cleared up the origin and significance of the map without too much delay.

Instead, this poor bastard ended up being tortured by cooperative intelligence agents in Syria and Egypt, who aren't as nervous about getting their hands dirty as Canadian and American spooks are.

Fuck.

[Enderw24]

This came from page 3 of your first link. The quote is unattributed and the pronouns are a tad confusing but...does it say what I think it says? Just requesting a lawyer during your interrogations to help represent you means they're less likely to believe anything you have to say?

"How seriously are we supposed to take these people when they consistently refuse to speak to people who they say they are interested in speaking to, if those people want a witness or a lawyer to ensure accuracy of statements? "

[Raygun99]

I read it as the lawyer saying CSIS refused to meet with their suspect if he had his lawyer present.

[Atticus Finch]

Also to note from page 3 - the guy had taken flying lessons and he had worked as a driver for a mujahidin group in Afghanistan a few years back. Torture and detainment without trial are never acceptable, but he wasn't tortured and detained because of the map alone.

[Larry Mudd]

Also to note from page 3 - the guy had taken flying lessons and he had worked as a driver for a mujahidin group in Afghanistan a few years back.Who else here has taken flying lessons? Mujahidin doesn't equal terrorist, either -- especially one who drove an ambulance in the early nineties.

The thing is, if they were worried that he might be a "radicalized" person working with terrorists against western governments, they should have taken the minimal effort required to look into the map's significance (or complete lack thereof.)

[Random]

Syria? A cooperative government? Since when?

Something doesn't add up with this story. According to the OP's link, the sequence of events goes something like this. Man, originally from Kuwait, tries to enter the US in a large truck. He recently took flying lessons. He's a Muslim, serious enough about Islamic causes that he joined the Mujahidiin as a driver in Afghanistan 10 years ago. He gets questioned, and the truck gets searched at customs. The search reveals a map, showing atomic and virus lab sites. He denies knowing anything about the map, even though it's in his truck.

That's from his version, remember.

What happens? Does he get beaten? Does he get arrested? Does he even get denied entry to the US?

No. Apparently, none of these things happened. He got questioned and let go.

So what's all this about torture? Apparently, some time later, he went to a wedding in Syria. (Those dastardly Americans! It must have been a setup!) And the Syrians arrested him. And allegedly tortured him. Just how the evil Canadian-American plotters made all this happen is never explained.

Remember, he went there on his own. Syria is a semi-hostile state. It's not a place known for respecting the rights of people under arrest. How is this the fault of the US or Canada? The link darkly mutters about information that somehow made its way to Syrian authorities, but never gives a plausible explanation for just how this happened. If the US wanted the guy, would it have let him go free (with his truck, and flight lessons, and Afghan links) in the first place?

[Larry Mudd]

Syria? A cooperative government? Since when?Not keeping up? Syria is a favoured country for rendition (http://www.brookings.edu/views/op-ed/byman/20050417.htm). No rendition in this case, of course, but shared "intelligence" that led to his arrest and torture in Syria. Where do you suppose they got the map?

Man, originally from Kuwait, tries to enter the US in a large truck.Read: Canadian citizen who's made hundreds of uneventful trips into the U.S. in his capacity as a driver for a well-known Canadian company (http://www.highlandtransport.com/high_profile.htm). He's working, like he has for years. He recently took flying lessons.Whoopie.He's a Muslim...Boo!...serious enough about Islamic causes that he joined the Mujahidiin as a driver in Afghanistan 10 years ago.Do you have any idea how many Mujahidin there are? Do you know who they have typically allied with? Who repelled the Soviets? Who fought shoulder-to-shoulder with the allies against the Taliban? Yes, Osama (and Uncle Sam) at one point supported the Mujahidin. You may be confused because one mujahidin organization, (Maktab al-Khadamat) evolved into Al Qaeda. Don't fall into a fallacy of composition. This is a bit like saying that Jim Bob Smith must be women's clinic bomber because he collected for the Salvation Army at Christmas.He gets questioned, and the truck gets searched at customs. The search reveals a map, showing atomic and virus lab sites. He denies knowing anything about the map, even though it's in his truck.His company's truck. His regular rig is in the shop.That's from his version, remember.The Globe and Mail doesn't rush to press with unsubstantiated claims.So what's all this about torture? Apparently, some time later, he went to a wedding in Syria. (Those dastardly Americans! It must have been a setup!) And the Syrians arrested him. And allegedly tortured him. Just how the evil Canadian-American plotters made all this happen is never explained.Except that they were torturing him to find out what the stupid tourist map from the border stop was all about. That little thing. The link darkly mutters about information that somehow made its way to Syrian authorities, but never gives a plausible explanation for just how this happened. If the US wanted the guy, would it have let him go free (with his truck, and flight lessons, and Afghan links) in the first place?You do know that rendition is a defended policy in the U.S., right? And that Syria is a favoured destination?

Again, no rendition here, but the key component is there. "We really want to know about this." Wink-wink. Syria has been cooperating (http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?030728fa_fact) with U.S. intelligence for years, now -- and anyone who's paying attention knows that. Sorry if you don't find it "plausible."

This all could have been cleared up by a competent investigation by the RCMP -- back at the start.

[Random]

Hey, I realize that working yourself up into a froth over this is a whole lot of fun, but try to apply whatever logical ability that you might have. I realize that it's difficult - that's why there's so many foamers out there.

Let's try it again.

There are gaping holes in this story. Things that simply don't add up.

Point the First: Even if you accept the assertion that the US follows a so-called "rendition" policy, it means the direct deportation or transfer of persons under arrest, or otherwise in direct custody, to allied places where laws against torture aren't quite as strict. The story goes something like this:

****
Dramatis Personae

Abdul - A person of Arab descent, originally from Torturstan.

Ryan - Evil CIA Agent

[i]Scene[/]

A holding cell, somewhere in the US

Our play opens. Centerstage, Abdul is bound to a chair. A bright light shines in his eyes. Enter Ryan, stage right.

Abdul: "I'll never talk!"

Ryan: "Bwahahah! Talk you will! If not, it's off to Torturstan with you! They know how to make scum like you cooperate!

****

And so, poor Abdul either talks, or he's tortured into talking overseas. That's what supposedly happens in a rendition. Shit, didn't you get the memo? Maybe MoveOn lost your fax number?

Leaving aside obvious immoral and repugnant aspect of a torture strategy, at least this version of rendition makes some logical sense. The CIA, unable to get a terrorist suspect to reveal what he knows through legal means, and unable to torture him here, extracts the information by threatening deportation to a scary regime and, if that doesn't work, actually following through. This plan, evil though it might be, could actually work.

But that's not what Our Hero claims happened here. Again, he wasn't arrested, detained, secretly abducted, or deported. The Americans let him go. He goes back to his daily life.

Let's go over that again. The guy who is believed to be a terrorist suspect - however wrongheaded that might be - remains a free man. There's no evidence from your article that he's ever denied entry into the United States. I mean, the US may not be able to use torture, but the Feds still have the power to deny entry. We don't need the Syrians to do that for us.

But we don't. Instead, the Feds wring their hands impotently. Nothing happens to Our Guy. Until he makes his fatal mistake. He gets on a plane, of his own free will, and flies to Syria for a wedding. Aha! Now we have him! No more truck visits for you!

Come on. Does this make any sense at all? Will you concede that there's a whole lot of legal things that the Feds could do between (a) Letting him go and (b) um.. letting him go and hoping he gets invited to a wedding?

Point the Second: Given a choice, just who do you think should be investigated? Young Arab males, with large trucks, with a history of fervor towards Islamic causes, past membership in the Mujahidin, and recent pilot lessons? Apparently not. Perhaps you would focus our energies on 80-year old Irish Catholic nuns from Boise with an interest in crocheting scarves?

[Banquet Bear]

[snip...]




...maybe you will find the story of Maher Arar has less gaping holes...

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/01/04/INGPQ40MET1.DTL&type=printable

Maher Arar was about to change planes on his way home to Canada after visiting his wife's family in Tunisia when he was pulled aside for questioning. He was not a terrorist. He had no terrorist connections, but his name was on the list, so he was detained for questioning. Not ordinary, polite questioning, but abusive, insulting, degrading questioning by the immigration service, the FBI and the New York City Police Department.

So, they put Arar on a private plane and flew him to Washington, D.C. There, a new team, presumably from the CIA, took over and delivered him, by way of Jordan, to Syrian interrogators. This covert operation was legal, our Justice Department later claimed, because Arar is also a citizen of Syria by birth. The fact that he was a Canadian traveling on a Canadian passport, with a wife, two children and job in Canada, and had not lived in Syria for 16 years, was ignored.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0811/dailyUpdate.html

" And the second day, that's when the beatings started, because, you know, on the first day they did not find anything strange about what I told them, and they started beating me with a cable, electrical threaded cable, and they would beat me for three, four times. They would stop again, and they would ask questions again, and they always kept telling me, ‘You are a liar,’ and things like that. So, the beating continued for the first two weeks. The most -- the most intensive -- the intensive beating was really the first week, and then after that it was mostly slapping, punching on the face and kicking."

Both the Canadian and Syrian governments now say Arar has nothing to do with Al Qaeda or any other terrorist group...

[snip...]

But the US government has refused to change its position, instead saying it has "secret" information that ties Arar to Al Qaeda. The US Justice Department is using this as the basis for its request that Arar's lawsuit against former Attorney General John Ashcroft, former Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge and others in the US government be dismissed.

http://www.timecanada.com/CNOY/story.adp?year=2004
In the end, Arar says, he decided he had a “responsibility as a Canadian and as a human being to talk about it,” and not just for his own sake. “There are people who are being tortured now as we speak,” he says. “There are people who are being jailed unjustly.”

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?050214fa_fact6

Your thoughts?

[Random]

I didn't challenge that story, in any of the threads that raised it.

There was a reason for that.

This thread is about another incident, with different and implausible allegations, which I did challenge.

Am I correct in assuming that your chance of subject means that you have no rebuttal to the analysis in my prior post?

[Random]

urf. change, not chance

[Larry Mudd]

I am being logical. You're the one who's assuming facts not in evidence, and ignoring inconvenient data.Point the First: Even if you accept the assertion that the US follows a so-called "rendition" policy, it means the direct deportation or transfer of persons under arrest, or otherwise in direct custody, to allied places where laws against torture aren't quite as strict.Try reading:No rendition in this case, of course, but shared "intelligence" that led to his arrest and torture in Syria. [...] Again, no rendition here, but the key component is there. "We really want to know about this." Wink-wink. Syria has been cooperating (http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?030728fa_fact) with U.S. intelligence for years, now -- and anyone who's paying attention knows that.Look, U.S. border security was concerned about an apparently suspicious map. Their suspect also happened to fit a worrisome profile on a couple of points. That's fair. I have not suggested, and would not suggest that taking a hard look was in any way out of line. It was perfectly sensible for U.S. intelligence to take their concerns to the RCMP or CSIS. As I said:This all could have been cleared up by a competent investigation by the RCMP -- back at the start.By all means, take the time and either clear him or condemn him. If due diligence was performed, everyone could have had a could larf about it. "Ha ha. A co-worker's tourist guide in the glove compartment of a company truck." I'm sure everyone would have been quite understanding about the whole thing.

Never mind that El Maati went to Syria of his own volition to get married. He didn't get arrested and tortured because the Syrians are unromantic. He was on the List, and someone put in a word with Syrian intelligence, forwarding the vaunted Map along to them. Unless you think that his arrest and torture was coincidental, and the map came to them from a Syrian mole working within the U.S. or Canada?

You can invoke far left blogs if you want (I don't read them,) but nothing we're talking about is the province of lefty loonies. It comes from established, impassive journalistic sources -- and nothing's in dispute. Hell, even a far right blog (http://frontpagemag.com/articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=9308), invoking a far right newpaper, corroborates key points:A story in Canada's national newspaper, The National Post, said al-Qaeda terrorists were plotting to attack the American embassy in Ottawa before a tip from Syrian intelligence led to the terrorists' arrest. Flynt Leverett, a former CIA analyst who served until recently on the National Security Council and is now a fellow at the Brookings Institute, confirmed the plot's existence.Note that this is offered as a balm at a time when controversy was brewing over the Mahar Arar case, in which the U.S. shanghaid another Ottawa man to Syria, where he was also tortured into "confessing" to a terrorist plot -- possibly with Canadian complicity.Point the Second: Given a choice, just who do you think should be investigated? Young Arab males, with large trucks, with a history of fervor towards Islamic causes, past membership in the Mujahidin, and recent pilot lessons? Apparently not. Perhaps you would focus our energies on 80-year old Irish Catholic nuns from Boise with an interest in crocheting scarves?Again, as I have repeatedly said, investigation was warranted. Nice, legal, effective investigation. If it were carried off correctly, the guy would have been easily exonerated, and gotten married as planned, instead of being beaten and tortured in a Syrian prison.

I'm sure that there are people who think that sharing intelligence and interrogative resources with not-so-nice people is a dandy and justified way of getting around inconvenient human rights conventions -- but so far, it's not working out so well. We've got two innocent, hard-working Canadian citizens who've been tortured because of this policy. Not cool.

[Banquet Bear]

I didn't challenge that story, in any of the threads that raised it.

There was a reason for that.

This thread is about another incident, with different and implausible allegations, which I did challenge.


...what was implausible? That he claims the map wasn't his? He took flying lessons? He's a Muslim? The map was forwarded to Syrian authorities? He was tortured? Syria co-operating? Your attempt to finding gaping holes in the story has not found any large gaping holes-unless you are denying that the map wasn't sent to Syria, and that Ahmad wasn't tortured.


Am I correct in assuming that your chance of subject means that you have no rebuttal to the analysis in my prior post?

...your the one building the case against this case being rendition. Larry Mudd admits its not, he never mentions it in his OP, yet you build a lovely Dramatis Personae aka strawman to try and prove him wrong. Your comments like "Syria? A cooperative government? Since when?" and "This plan, evil though it might be, could actually work. " led me to believe that you know little about the policy of rendition and needed more information. Feel free to let me know if I am wrong.