Marvel/DC fanfic

[Askia]

I posted on RevTim's Marvel/DC merger thread the plot outlines of a crossover fanfic I had ages ago. A couple of you seemed to like it, so I madethis post to describe the way I'd like to structure it.

So... anyone interested besides me? This is thread to sign up and declare your interest.

Don't feel bad if you don't. I warn you now I am not the easiest collaborator in the world. On the other hand the best collaborations I've done were fun and we did work we were all really proud of.

I've carried this idea around with me for, oh, ten years now so I'd be kinda cool to get it out of my system. If not, it goes back in the box.

[Askia]

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6567934&postcount=19

[Revtim]

Hey, has DC and Marvel ever considered merging? Let's talk about that here!

:D ;)

[Askia]

Dick. LOL.

In fairness, Revtim I usually don't hijack threads until at least a genuine attempt has been made to answer the question.

Still buds?

[Revtim]

I was just pulling your leg, Askia, no hard feelings. (But you shouldn't hijack threads whether the question has been answered or not)

FWIW I liked your story fragment a lot, and I'd like to see where it leads. Do you plan on using the Access character, or some other mechanism?

[Harborwolf]

I liked the fragment you posted in the other thread. You may want to post links to this thread just to keep things organized. As for contributing, you can put me down as a maybe. I'm a busy boy and my knowledge of DC is shaky at best.

One small thing, if Luthor was even possible intending to someday harm Spidey, his sense would give a mild buzz. It's highly sensitive. In a recent issue, his sense was able to detect the threat of someone who, unknown to Spidey at the time, was a leader of Hydra. He didn't mean Spider Man any direct harm at the time, but the sense picked up on it.

A better way to work that scene would be to have Spidey rounded up by Luthors men and whisked away to a rendevous where his sense would buzz the whole time. Noone would be even hostile to him. He wouldn't know why it was going off. He would just get enough of a twinge to be suspicious. Later when he talks to Lois about it, she would be very concerned and ask what happened, what was said, etc. She would provide confirmation of what his sense was detecting. Luthor would also know that Spider Man didn't trust him.

The story would be lead to the same place, but it would fit more with what Spider Mans powers are capable of. Hope that helps.

[Askia]

Harborwolf. I like your low buzz spider-sense suggestion. I've planned something similar that points out exactly how dangerous Luthor is that also underscores the sensitivity of Spidey's spider-senses... but more than that would be being obvious. :p Hopefully the way I've written it it works.

I take it you'd want to do a Superman in the Marvel U story since you don't know much about the DCU. Do you have any idea what plot and characters you want yet? Or the story title?

Revtim. I don't start out intentionally highjacking threads, but anybody in real life would tell you I'm a sho' nuff conversational meanderer and I like exploring divergent and related points. I'm not usually aware of it until after the fact. I'll make up taking your thread off topic, promise.

[Revtim]

Don't worry about it Askia.

Have you thought about the mechanism that switches the two heroes? The Access character, or what?

[Harborwolf]

I take it you'd want to do a Superman in the Marvel U story since you don't know much about the DCU. Do you have any idea what plot and characters you want yet? Or the story title?
Hey now. Don't go gettin' ahead of me. I said maybe. :)

To be honest, I don't know what I would do. I really really really don't like Superman. I do like your angle with Supes methods being out of place in the Marvel universe, but it lacks.....I dunno...meat. There needs to be something to challenge him. How in the heck do you challenge somebody like that in anything close to Marvel reality without using cosmic beings that only stop by occasionally or using Thor villains?

I'm also really bad with the Avengers. I'm a Spider Man and X-Men fan myself. The only Avengers title I ever bought with any regularity was West Coast Avengers.

If you can give me some ground rules (basic timeline, Avengers cast, etc.), I'll see what I can come up with but no promises. I'm much more comfortable with Spidey than Supes.

[Stuffy]

I'm in. My knowledge of the DCU is limited to JL Unlimited so to day any DC parts we'd need to conform to that universe. I'm fully up to speed on Marvel. I also agree with to an extent with Harborwolf Superman needs to be limited, or a great set of villians need to arise for it to work. Apocalypse springs to mind, but I don't think he works well with others. Maybe a Beyonder gone bad or something.

[Askia]

Revtim. I'd thought about postulating a force similar to osmosis on a multiversal scale that swaps out matter from different realities, like the DCU to the Marvel Universe and vice-versa, through a series of interdimensional portals that could appear anywhere before winking out of existence. The force is insidous but subtle, undiscovered by most species until they've attained a certain technological level. For trillenia until now, the membranes function primarily on inanimate matter -- air, water, rocks and occasional uninhabited land masses -- but on Earth, now, as the natural human and animal habitats expands outside ordinary Earthly boundaries -- animals, mythological creatures, ordinary people and superhumans are beginning to trade places as well. As Reed Richards and Ray Palmer will put it: "Matter cannot be created or destroyed. It can only change form. Occassionally, though, it appears to trade matter from one side of existence to another. Nature moves in mysterious ways." In the end, the heroes would devise a mechanism that could anticipate and regulate shifts away from populated areas in both universes so that the force would only exist on the inanimate level, as before, and Superman and Spider-Man would step into portals and get their lives back. I hadn't yet decided who would monitor those machines on Earth, but I'd come up with something that makes sense. If a collaborator has ideas about this, great, let's talk.

Access would've been a distant second choice. My main problem was coming up with a good reason for his disappearance these last few years and why he'd suddenly swapped out these two heroes without an explanation. If a collaborator had a solution, I could be persuaded to go this route.

I absolutely do not want villains responsible for this, because whether the villains are unknowable giant cosmic brothers or galactic gamblers making universal wagers, that kind of interference plot-wise makes me groan. But if a collaborator could come up with an interesting villain choice and a motive I could live with, or even like, then we can try that.

Harborwolf. I know you said "maybe." In a former life, I was known as an aggressive story editor. :cool: It's good to know I haven't lost my touch.

I'm glad you're aware of your storytelling limits, because that makes it easier to coordinate something like this. I'd rather have a person do a good little story with a great story arc than someone who wants a big epic and with a bunch of characters that can't finish. But do think of a plot, characters and a title and get back.

[Harborwolf]

Well, I did some looking in to the Avengers online. The actual Avengers Assemble website was next to worthless as they haven't updated since 2000. Way to stay on the ball kids. :rolleyes:

Next up was the Marvel Directory (http://www.marveldirectory.com/teams/avengers.htm). Much more helpful as they've covered the fall of the Avengers and the remake of the team. Spider Man being an Avenger would help with the swap aspect (Spidey hangs with JLA. Supes with the Avengers) and the Sentry would be a character of Superman level if I knew more about him. Wolverine would be somebody who would relish busting big blues superchops.

A good bit would be Supes busting out the Kent disguise and Wolverine spotting him instantly. "Glasses huh? Great disguise." If you wanted to play dirty, somebody could mention Logans eyepatch.

The escapees from The Raft provide a good source of villains and some sort of plot/action/conflict but the problem remains challenging Superman. His powers are essentially limitless without kryptonite handy. He is weak against magic but that's more Dr. Strange turf than the Avengers. There would be more options if there was a way to bring him down to slightly above Iron Man level without descending into cheese.

[Askia]

I'm in. My knowledge of the DCU is limited to JL Unlimited so to day any DC parts we'd need to conform to that universe. I'm fully up to speed on Marvel. I also agree with to an extent with Harborwolf Superman needs to be limited, or a great set of villians need to arise for it to work. Apocalypse springs to mind, but I don't think he works well with others. Maybe a Beyonder gone bad or something. I'd want people to be really creative in thinking about ways Superman could be attacked before we limit his powers. Marvel has the specialized superheroes, villains and mystic items to do this. Remember, too -- Superman knows little about the Marvel Universe so everything could be a potential surprise. Here's a gimme: In this crossover, Superman learns he can be cut by adamantium. Also I think stripping away his reputation and supporting characters and putting him the Marvel universe

I addressed the I don't know the universe problem in the link when I said: "Another rule is that we all stick to plots in the conventional Marvel Universe and DCU, since that's what most of us know. No MAX line, no Ultimate titles or no Vertigo. Maybe not even stuff like the recent and unfinished Seven Soldiers of Victory or House of M or The Infinite Crisis. (I think allusions would be okay, especially humorous ones, since that falls under "geeky comics references and in-jokes".)"

Anyway, the DCU of the WB Justice League cartoons is pretty close, so we can definitely do that. Most of the collaborators cool with that? Majority rules. Speak up!

Another rule in that link is that the stories we do should be self contained. I think using Apocolypse or a Beyonder gone bad is great, but you use him, the story should be resolved in your story chapter unless you've made arrangements to share the villain with another writer. That way we can keep stuff "in-continuity", too.

[Askia]

Harborwolf. I looooove that bit with Wolverine and Superman in disguise. You should use that if you do this.

Great resource links, BTW.

[Askia]

I posted this to the other thread, but I'm reposting it here so everyone knows what I'm doing.

I'll slightly re-write the set up I shared above so that it has better mood and setting, and contrasts the two heroes a little better, and has a better springboard.

I'll also commit to two chapters, one for each superhero.

My Superman chapter is called: "Superman versus the Mole Man"
Guest-starring the Avengers in a brief cameo, the Fantastic Four, the Mole Man and lots of Kirby monsters from Monster Isle. The plot: Superman is suffering a slump, and his confidence is badly shaken as his stay in Marvel's NYC has him bumping heads with the experienced Avengers and aggravating the local police. At Captain America's urging Reed Richards invites Superman to join the FF to explore a subterranean dimensional gateway below central Europe that he believes may be a portal to the DCU; unknown to them it's also a spawning ground for the Mole Man's monsters. A fight with the Monsters ensues, but Superman brokers a truce that impresses the FF.

My Spider-Man chapter is called: "The Last Temptation of Spider-Man" Starring Lois Lane in a guest-starring role, Lex Luthor and Spider-Man, Luthor's bodyguard Mercy, assorted Lexcorps flunkies. The plot: Spider-Man is on patrol in Metropolis when he gets invited to lunch by Lex Luthor. Having been warned by Lois Lane that despite his public persona Luthor is absolutely not to be trusted, but not sensing anything warning with his spider-sense, Spider-Man warily goes along. They warm up to each other over lunch and Luthor takes Spider-Man into his confidence and they bond to an extent, prompting Luthor to make Spider-Man an offer he can't refuse. Spider-Man refuses anyway. This decision has repercussions. Essentially a lot of character talk and dialogue, but hopefully interesting.

[Askia]

Oops. I half-wrote a sentence in post #13 -- "I think that by stripping Superman of us reputation and sticking him in the Marvel NYC will do wonders for more character conflict. In the DCU, Superman gets along with everybody. That probably won't happen with Daily Bugle publisher J Jonah Jameson leading public opinion against him."

[Stuffy]

You know, I think you're right Askia. I just had a great thought on a J Jonah Jameson during an expose called Aien Menace. Give me a little time to come up with a back story.

[Harborwolf]

Oops. I half-wrote a sentence in post #13 -- "I think that by stripping Superman of us reputation and sticking him in the Marvel NYC will do wonders for more character conflict. In the DCU, Superman gets along with everybody. That probably won't happen with Daily Bugle publisher J Jonah Jameson leading public opinion against him."
Yeah, but with that as your only hook the story becomes a bunch of "look at the big blundering superdude" jokes. He's still going to mow through the villains and that just ain't comic booky, especially since Spider Man is going to have more difficulty fighting crime. Nope. This story needs villains and action.

If we're going with Superman having problems with adamantium, Ultron would make a nifty villain. Shame he's dead.

Apocalypse would also be a decent baddy, but he's an X-Men villain primarily and he's dead.

Mephisto could be used. He's a marvel wide villain and magical to boot. He's more of a manipulator though. Maybe he could be powering up the villains to defeat the avengers or something.

If all else fails, we'll just have to use this guy (http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/d/doctorbong.htm).

[Askia]

Yeah, but with that as your only hook the story becomes a bunch of "look at the big blundering superdude" jokes. He's still going to mow through the villains and that just ain't comic booky, especially since Spider Man is going to have more difficulty fighting crime. Nope. This story needs villains and action.

If we're going with Superman having problems with adamantium, Ultron would make a nifty villain. Shame he's dead.

Apocalypse would also be a decent baddy, but he's an X-Men villain primarily and he's dead.

Mephisto could be used. He's a marvel wide villain and magical to boot. He's more of a manipulator though. Maybe he could be powering up the villains to defeat the avengers or something.

If all else fails, we'll just have to use this guy (http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/d/doctorbong.htm). Doctor Bong? Dear, sweet Og no.

Marvel has better villians with significantly more interesting powers so I do not buy that Superman will plow right through them. And they don't know who Superman is so they will not be intimidated by him, especially since his public debut has him trashing the Daily Bugle looking for a bomb even though the Avengers were called and getting branded as a menace worse than Spider-Man for it. Without Superman's reputation behind him he'll have to earn the respect of Marvel Universe heroes, press, civil authorities and even the supervillains. You go through cycles of being popular and unpopular, it's hard to convince people you're actually competant when they're prejudiced against you. Superman's character arc will hopefully be re-discovering the man behind the Superman.

[Harborwolf]

Just had a thought with regards to Supes and adamantium.

If we're going to use the current line up of Avengers, then we've got Wolverine (who is literally the adamantium poster boy. They use him in all of their ads) to play with. He goes to shred something and Supes, not giving Wolvie his due props for being the best he is at what he does, super speeds in front of Wolvies claw strike. Wolverine can't stop the hit, but he does manage to pull back and hit non-lethally.

With that you get more Superman personality problems and the reveal of a weakness. Maybe a bit of a confidence shake to boot. Bet he'd have to take some time alone to think about what he almost did by not thinking.

[Askia]

Harborwolf. I REFUSE TO GIVE YOU THE SATISFACTION ABOUT HOW PERFECT THAT IS -- ESPECIALLY SUPERMAN'S REACTION -- UNTIL YOU COMMIT TO WRITING A STORY!! Quit teasing me!

-- Agitated Askia

[Askia]

You know, I think you're right Askia. I just had a great thought on a J Jonah Jameson during an expose called Aien Menace. Give me a little time to come up with a back story. I meant to respond earlier. Sounds good -- but how would J. Jonah Jameson discover and expose that Superman is an alien? Here's ome food for thought Either 1) Superman reveals that fact himself and Jameson uses it against him or 2) someone else somehow discovered that fact and "informed" jameson or 3) someone publicly theorizes that Superman's range of superhuman abilties would either make him an alien or a mutant.

[Harborwolf]

Harborwolf. I REFUSE TO GIVE YOU THE SATISFACTION ABOUT HOW PERFECT THAT IS -- ESPECIALLY SUPERMAN'S REACTION -- UNTIL YOU COMMIT TO WRITING A STORY!! Quit teasing me!

-- Agitated Askia
I've explained my problems. Supes and his powers have been abused by too many hack writers who wrote themselves into corners and had to kick supies powers up a notch (BAM!) to wrap up the villain and the story line. I have no problem with character exploration but this is a comic book and needs at least some form of comic bookie conflict. That means villains and Superman has too large a group of powers to choose from.

I will say that exposing a new weakness and character flaws to create doubts would give Mephisto room to operate to a satisfactory level for the character, but I need time to think damnit. Till then I'll just shoot out the ideas I've got for everyone to chew on.

P.S. I thought it was "Agressive Story Editor Askia." :p

[Askia]

P.S. I thought it was "Aggressive Story Editor Askia." :p Well, it was till you got me all agitated.

Superman's power-levels aren't so omnipotent that he can't be checked by imaginative use of other people's powers. People think he's vulnerable only to kryptonite, magic and red sun radiation but the truth is so much more fluid than that. Marvel has a plethora of psi-powered people, mostly female, both villainous and heroic that could pose him problems by psionically messing with his head. There are tons of adamantium and secondary adamantium weapons that can cause him physical harm. Vibranium, too, might at least cause a burning sensation that Superman finds painful. Graviton could take away his ability to fly and rob him of much of his super-strength. Superman remains susceptible to all kinds of oiffensive magical artifacts and spells. Superman's entire range of vision powers can be disrupted with something as ordinary, simple, small and inexpensive as... well, I won't share that one. I may still use it. :D I don't believe for one instant this group of fanboys on the SDMB will let anyone get away with hack writing. You think I'm picky, wait until Menocchio or Fenris shows up.

If you decide that you don't want a write, would you be happy with being a collaborator consultant who just works as a plot consultant, idea-springboard-bouncer-offer and idea-generator? You obviously have a lot to offer.

[Harborwolf]

I'll contribute whatever I can. If I can crank out a workable story idea, I'll do it. If not, you'll get whatever I can come up with.

I don't see how vibranium would cause a burning sensation. It's primary ability is to absorb vibrations/force with very little damage. It is more common than adamantium though so it's a bit more workable. I also thought of the telepath angle, but remembered that Superman is somewhat telepathy resistant due to Kryptonian meditation training or some other whatnot like that. I think it came up in the JLA vs. the X-Men thread as to why the X-paths couldn't just wipe the floor with the JLA. Again, blame it on hack writers.

Now if you want to go the self doubt route but can't rely on telepaths, you are pretty much stuck with the gods and other uber beings: Nightmare, the Enchantress, Loki, and Mephisto. Nightmare is a bit of a lightweight in the power department and the asgardians have that nasty thee/thou/forsooth tis I speech impediment. That leaves Mephisto. The only question is how to get him involved and why he'd be so keen to slap around Superman.

A good speed bump villain requiring Superman to swallow his pride and call for back up would be the Absorbing Man. I know. The whole power absorbtion thing with superman is done every day and twice on weekends, but Crusher has the magical wrecking ball and the power versatility to keep superman back on his heels by say, absorbing the properties of adamantium or vibranium.

[Askia]

I don't see how vibranium would cause a burning sensation. It's primary ability is to absorb vibrations/force with very little damage. It is more common than adamantium though so it's a bit more workable. Vibranium comes in two varieties: the sound-absorbing kind, and the kind which is the anti-metal that destroys other metals upon physical contact. My guess is that if someone where to try to cut Superman's skin with an anti-metal vibranium blade and beat him with a blunt vibranium weapon it wouldn't cut him but it might burn -- perhaps badly. Like a hot iron.

[Stuffy]

Askia: I'm assuming Supes would be just as free with information as he is in the DCU where it wasn't much of a secret. Plus it gives us the hook Jameson would need. Thirdly it would give Marvels more scientifically oriented villians an area to start exploring. To me the weakness of the DCU is that most of the characters sans Batman aren't that bright.

[Askia]

Stuffy. On the other hand, if Superman tried to keep the fact he's an alien to himself, and it was somehow figured out by the Marvel press or scientific community that he's not, just based on his demonstrated superpowers -- Jameson could still get the hook he needed AND be able to say, "What else is Superman hiding?" Not only would Jameson have a point, it would add to the Marvel Universe Distrust of Superman pile-on.

But we would have to be careful to this animosity towards Superman is as unfair as it was when Spider-Man got regularly bashed by the Bugle. Nobody ever really feels sympathy for Superman, y'know? He almost never makes mistakes trusting people or underestimating people's capacities for irrational hate, either.

It might be considered out of character for Superman to try and keep his alien heritage a secret unless he felt he had a very good reason to.

I love your idea of Marvel's scientifically-oriented villains quickly planning to deal with Superman. Stuffy are you going to do a Spider-Man story in the DCU, too?

-- Affable Askia

[slortar]

Heh. The first thing that came to mind on reading the title of this thread was that this was going to be about Batman/Wolverine slash...

[Harborwolf]

Agressive to agitated to affable. Somebody wake me up when we reach adjectiveless. :p

Two quick questions:

Askia, what is going to be going on right before the swap. Have our heroes settled in to bed after a long night of battling evil? Give me a rough idea of what you are going to do with Spideys first appearance in DC.

What exactly are Spider Womans powers? I know about super strength, speed, wall crawling, etc. Does she still do the venom blasts? Any sort of webbery happening?

[CandidGamera]

I'm intrigued, but sort of put-off by the implications of your seeming loathing for Big Blue. I could never sign onto something that has the ultimate motivation 'Superman sucks, Spider-Man Rules!!'- and I'm wondering how much of that is the case here.

[Scott Plaid]

She (Jessica Drew) still does the venom bit, in the new Avengers. I don't believe she flies, however. The webbing under her arm is so that she can control her falls. Also, I don't beliueve she doesn’t make spiderman style webbing.

P.S. I will give you the same advice given to me in my writing thread (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=329888) . Write the story (or a least a good chunk of it ) first, then ask for advice.

[Askia]

slotar. I would be surprised if someone doesn't pitch a slash chapter, given this group.

Harborwolf. Setting the mood: after a long exhausting day of crimefighting both our heroes return to their apartments late one evening and crawl in bed with their wives -- too tired to change costumes. At 12:59 am they're both asleep in their own beds. At 1:00am they've swapped universes and can't get home.

CandidGamera: You've talked to me for how many years and you think I loathe Superman??!! NO. I love the big lug. I'm just giving him the ol' Peter Parker/Charlie Brown treatment while he's in the Marvel Universe: nobody loves me, everybody hates me, time to go out and fight crime. This is more like "Spider-Man rules when he's not being a depressed jerk and Superman is way more interesting when the world isn't automatically on his side." Both heroes rock, but it's long past time Spider-Man was appreciated by the public at large and Superman was humbled just a bit. New Yorkers are a different breed than Metropolitans.

[CandidGamera]

CandidGamera: You've talked to me for how many years and you think I loathe Superman??!! NO. I love the big lug. I'm just giving him the ol' Peter Parker/Charlie Brown treatment while he's in the Marvel Universe: nobody loves me, everybody hates me, time to go out and fight crime. This is more like "Spider-Man rules when he's not being a depressed jerk and Superman is way more interesting when the world isn't automatically on his side." Both heroes rock, but it's long past time Spider-Man was appreciated by the public at large and Superman was humbled just a bit. New Yorkers are a different breed than Metropolitans.

Well.. I don't recall having a lot of Supes discussions with you one way or the other, and he's an icon people love to clast. And Aesiron's comments in the other thread made me a bit concerned - I've got the theory that if you set out writing about a character with ill intent - 'Let's take him down a peg' - not only do you get one-sided results that alienate a lot of folks, the writing doesn't tend to measure up.

[Askia]

CG: In the hands of hack writers your theory has merit. This group, I have every confidence in.

Well, in a good story you can't have charcter arcs go down without going back up.. The other half of the let's take Superman down a peg equation is that after the jokes, after the self-pity party is over, when Superman realizes he is a force of good no matter what world he's on and actively begins to win the respect of the NYC public as well as the hearts and minds of the Avengers.

[Kamino Neko]

New Yorkers are a different breed than Metropolitans.

The main problem I have with the premise is - so are the local superhumans.

While it does work for Superman to be getting yelled at by just about everyone in Marvel NYC at first, it doesn't work, for me, for Spider-Man to suddenly become a star in Metropolis.

Spidey: 'There, that mugger's been taken care of.'

Jimmy: 'Uhm...great, dude...but that's why we have police. On the other hand, Amazo just broke out of STAR Labs and Intergang's in town again...could you maybe deal with that?'

Spidey: 'Uhm...Kay...'

Amazo: *crunch*

Spidey: '...Ow.'

Superboy: 'Dumbass.'

Conversely, stick Spidey in Gotham, and he probably would be Instant Hero. The villains are types he could handle with his Spider Sense tied behind his back, and he's a hell of a lot more personable than the Bat or Huntress.

[Askia]

Tengu. Spider-Man's becoming a star in Metropolis works because of the broadcasted fight between him and the Brain Quintet on the moon and Lois Lane's OP/Ed piece that reassures everyone that he's a capable hero who can fill Superman's shoes. Spider-Man becomes the inheritor of all Superman's goodwill -- and that does make him a superstar. Like when Superman shows up at S.T.A.R. labs to borrow weaponry? Spider-Man gets that unflinching support, too. When the JLA shows up from all over the nation if Superman needs help and presses the communicators? Spider-Man gets that allied help, too. Plus simply being around all that technology and weaponry might give the scientific-minded Peter Parker a few ideas about slightly adapting his webbing and creating new-spider based equipment while he's in Metropolis, now that he can suddenly afford to do it...

Really, the key here is to get creative.

Do you want to write a chapter where Spider-Man visits Gotham, Tengu? No problem. The whole DCU is yours to play around with so long as he returns to Metropolis at the end so the next writer can use him.

[Kamino Neko]

Writing Spidey in Gotham could be FUN.

Especially with the Bat still there.

Yes...definitely fun.

[Askia]

You should totally sign on to do this.

Come up with a plot and a list of characters you'd want to use. Obviously you'd want Spider-Man and Batman -- who else?

You should try your hand at a Superman chapter in the Marvel universe, too. I have every confidence you can think of something interesting.

-Astute Askia.

[Kamino Neko]

Hmm...I am getting a potentially fun idea of Superman with the Avengers. Not exactly action packed, but I think it'd be fun.

I'm good with using the DCAU if everyone else is - although I would prefer the freedom of the comics universe.

What's the timeline in the Marvel U? I'm way out of date on 616 Marvel books, and I'll need to check who's with the Avengers, whichever time period it's in, if it's within the last 10 years.

[Askia]

Tengu, Stuffy says he's fully up to speed on the current Marvel Universe, so maybe you should talk with him. My feeling is that we'll end up with the DCAU here since that's what everyone's more familiar with. If a few story elements from the regular DCU sneak their way in (like Hitman, Azrael, Batgirl and Spoiler showing up in your proposed Gotham story, f'rinstance) I think this group would go for it. What do you think, guys?

-- Amenable Askia.

[Kamino Neko]

Cool, cool

As to who would be in the Spidey/Bats story...

A few of the higher profile supporting cast. Joker, Two-Face, Catwoman. Alfred, of course. Robin would depend on the exact timeline. Actually, maybe save him meeting Robin for another chapter, with the Titans. Maybe Batgirl. No Nightwing or Birds.4

Over in New York...Supes with Cap and Ironman.... That's about the only characters that would fit in the story who aren't dead, insane, or both.

[tremorviolet]

Gonna have any hot man-on-man action? I'm thinking Wolverine/Flash would be a great pairing... ;)

[Stuffy]

I love your idea of Marvel's scientifically-oriented villains quickly planning to deal with Superman. Stuffy are you going to do a Spider-Man story in the DCU, too?

-- Affable Askia

Yeah I have some thoughts on Spiderman/DC story as well, I'm thinking at the moment a Spidey/Flash/ Batman team up. Should be comedy gold.

[CandidGamera]

I will say that Spider-Man vs. The Rogues has incredible comedic potential.

[Askia]

[Mister Burns] Excellent. [/Burns]

I mean, excellent!

I gotta leave for work soon, so hopefully more people will sign on by the time I get home late tonight.

Right now the writers are:

Me, the set-up, two chapters (see above). I'm also coordinator, cheerleader and ruthless editor. My two chapters are "The Last Temptation of Spider-Man" starring Spidey, Lex Luthor and a bunch of Lexcorps flunkies, in which Luthor and Spider-Man have lunch and ol' baldy makes Spidey an offer he can't refuse... and "Superman versus the Mole Man" with Supes, a cameo of assorted Avengers and the Fantastic Four versus the Mole Man and his Kirby Creature Collective out on Monster Isle, in search of a way home for Superman.

Tengu. Two chapters. (see above.) One set in Gotham, in a bold creative twist and he's grabbing up a bunch of Bat-characters and Spidey on some sort of cool sounding adventure. His Superman in NYC story stars Cap and Iron Man. Interesting mix. Need titles and plots!

Stuffy. He's in, seems very interested, didn't say what he'd commit to, though, although I like his Alien Menace take on J. Jonah Jameson and Supes. (On PREVIEW) Oooo. He's got a Spidey/Flash/Batman story in mind! These combinations are great. Need titles and a plot!

CandidGamera. He's intrigued, he's wary of our motives, he hasn't commited to anything. I can be comforted by the fact that if CG does commit he'll probably write a very conscientious and kickass Superman chapter at the very least. Maybe if he's not comfortable as a writer he can join Harborwolf as a creative consultant?

Harborwolf. Creative consultant. He's given some good suggestions, too, and maaaaaybe we can intice him to write a backup story or interlude or something.

[CandidGamera]

I'm always happy to provide feedback, if nothing else. I've never really done the whole fanfic thing, though I've had several idea germs over the years.

(Usually of the 'What's the most bizarre crossover fanfic I can come up with, and plausibly write?' variety - like my Back to the Future/Dragonball Z notion.)

[Askia]

CandidGamera. Kewl.

Everybody. While I'm gone, see if y'all can commit to plots, characters and story titles. That way we can plan which stories get posted first, middle and last. I'll also slightly re-write and post the set-up scenarios by Wednesday afternoon.

Let's have a vote: which mechanism to explain the reason for the Superman/Spider-Man switch did you guys want to use? Newly Discovered Multiversal Forces, Amalgam's Access, mystery Super-Villain plot or Other?

I vote multiversal forces.

[CandidGamera]

Grah. I'm being tempted by my brain now.

[Harborwolf]

Grah. I'm being tempted by my brain now.Yeah, that's kinda what happened to me to. Once I locked on to the problem, I had to work it out.

FYI, I don't loathe Superman either, and I wouldn't want to take him down a peg. I do like a bit of drama and a good character exploration now and again. I figured the point of the crossover was to give the characters something they haven't had. Supes find himself as an outsider and a bit hated (or at least less loved). Spider Man finds raw public affection and support almost instantaneously. That gives so much character and story potential it almost makes me giddy.

Scott Plaid, thanks for the info. One website said that she had lost the bioelectricity so I wanted to make sure. As far as writing a chunk first, ain't gonna happen without the info. Who do you think I am? A writer for Marvel? :p
I'm using other peoples characters and would like to remain true to them, at least as far as powers go. Staying true to continuity to some extent would be nice too.

In that vein, how's Luthor doing in DC Land? He still head of a huge corporation with buttloads of armored underlings? I'm wondering how Superman would respond to Iron Man at first viewing.

[CandidGamera]

See, I've got humorous story ideas for both of them brewing now.

[Kamino Neko]

In that vein, how's Luthor doing in DC Land? He still head of a huge corporation with buttloads of armored underlings?

Not really. He's still got a fortune, which he'd apparently squirrelled away where only he could get at it, and no doubt a pretty good number of minions, but Wayne Industries bought out Lexcorp some time back.

OTOH, if we're using the DCAU, he's still in charge of Lexcorp, but recovering from a Brainiac possession.

[Stuffy]

Yeah I could imagine Superman reacting negatively to Iron Man.

[Harborwolf]

Not really. He's still got a fortune, which he'd apparently squirrelled away where only he could get at it, and no doubt a pretty good number of minions, but Wayne Industries bought out Lexcorp some time back.

OTOH, if we're using the DCAU, he's still in charge of Lexcorp, but recovering from a Brainiac possession.
I'm trying to stay in mainstream continuity as much as possible at least as a launching point. For marvel continuity, I'm starting off shortly after Spider Man moved in to Stark Towers/Avengers Mansion. The reason is that Clark can wake up next to MJ. When she freaks, she has instant access to high powered back up. The Avengers find someone in Peters room who is not Peter and react accordingly.

What fun is a crossover without at least one hero battle? It will also set up tensions between Superman and the Avengers for later on.

It also lets me use the newly badassified hydra. I believe it was Askia who suggested Supes go busting through the Bugle to find a bomb planted by Hydra. I really liked the idea of Jonah going apescat right in Supermans face. :D

[Askia]

Stuffy and Tengu. (Harborwolf and CandidGamera, you can chime in.) Is it cool with you two if I go ahead and get started with the story using my "multiversal portals" theory?

[Kamino Neko]

I have no problem wit' it.

[Askia]

Harborwolf. In my original draft it was just a conventional bomb threat. But HYDRA is a fine villain. Query: why target the Bugle?

After Superman finds the bomb, the Avengers could find a clue then that let's them know it was HYDRA or they can find the clue later. Do you want me to include that detail in my story or not? I could just wing it.

[Leaper]

Here's a question I asked the first time I came to this board oh so many years ago: which DC/Marvel crossover story type do you prefer: one in which the characters share the same world, and thus know of each other, or one in which they're in two different universes, and they somehow cross over and clash? Both have their upsides and flaws, and I was wondering which y'all liked better, both in fanfic and canon...

[Askia]

Leaper. It depends. For me, the earlier crossovers of the 1970s and early 1980s were from a simpler time and it made sense then for the heroes involved to be from a shared a world where they simply hadn't met yet.

But time went on, and I think since the Amalgam Universe crossovers, it makes more sense for them to be from seperate realities. Marvel Universe and DCU have genuinely different natures, especially in their approach to characterization, and its fun to play with the differences between the two.

[Harborwolf]

Askia, you are more than free to do whatever you want. I'm still kicking some thoughts around in my empty lil head.

I'm not too solid on hydra mainly because I'm also stuck on the "why the bugle problem", but they've been the feature villain in Amazing Spider Man right now and they've stuck with me. Straczynski has been kicking all kinds of ass writing Spidey. Best series I've read in a long time.

Hijack and pimping aside, I wasn't to keen on just a normal bombing either. And just like that *bing* a thought pops into my head. It's not a real bomb. A disgruntled whosits that's been pushed around by Jonah one too many times (not that he'd ever do that ;) ) calls in a threat and plants a fake bomb somewhere. Just enough wires and playdough to look real enough to a non expert from a distance but utterly no danger whatsoever. That covers the bomb aspect safely without needing to involve another villain or shadowy group and gives Jonah a reason to turn a few more shades of red.

Sound good?

[Askia]

That's going to make Superman look like a real dick, tho.

I can write it.

[Harborwolf]

That's going to make Superman look like a real dick, tho.

I can write it.
I know. I just thought it worked more cleanly and helped to twist the knife a bit in the early goings. He'll get his redemtion eventually, if not publicly than personally.

A good and oscure joke at the end of that bit would be to have Jonah tell someone to put in a call to Damage Control. :p

[Stuffy]

has anyone mentioned the secret ID thing yet? If Supes has to stay with MJ for an extended period shouldn't he have a more clever costume than a pair of eyeglasses.

[Harborwolf]

has anyone mentioned the secret ID thing yet? If Supes has to stay with MJ for an extended period shouldn't he have a more clever costume than a pair of eyeglasses.
Would it matter? With this being a separate universe and him being a tourist in it, who's gonna know? He could run around yelling "I'm Clark Kent and Superman!!" until the police hauled him off and noone would care.

It'd be the same with Spider Man too. Noone knows who Spider Man or Peter Parker are so secret identities wouldn't matter much.

[Stuffy]

sorry I didn't see your post before. Sure I have no problem with your multiversal portals. I'll submit titles and plots tommorrow. I've been researching villians for the DCU/Spiderman story. I've pretty much settled on an idea for the Supes story using multilple villians though I haven't settled which, being mostly irrevelant to the main story.

[Kamino Neko]

My plots, BTW:

Batman/Spidey - just Peter tagging along with Bruce. Would have to be placed early in the storyline, the two of them interacting for the first time. Trading advice, Peter driving Bruce nuts, that sort of thing. The dialogue with Joker and Peter and when Peter meets Selina are the key points.

Cap/Iron Man/Supes - The first line is 'I just remembered who you remind me of!' From either Cap or Tony. I don't want to spoil things too much, but geeky enough people ought to be able to figure out what's going on. Would have to go late in the game. Perhaps including one of the variants of the character in question.

[Stuffy]

Would it matter? With this being a separate universe and him being a tourist in it, who's gonna know? He could run around yelling "I'm Clark Kent and Superman!!" until the police hauled him off and noone would care.

It'd be the same with Spider Man too. Noone knows who Spider Man or Peter Parker are so secret identities wouldn't matter much.


Sure it would, but only if he's staying with MJ, unless he wants her to become a potential hostage. Hey what about jobs for that matter? Should they take each others RL jobs too, that alone would be some pretty good fodder.

[Kythereia]

I don't know if sign-up's still going on, but I volunteer to write/edit it. It'd be a pleasure. ;)

[Stuffy]

I didn't expect to have it so soon, but the title for the Spiderman title will be "Just like Home" As previously mentioned Spidey/Bats/Flash team up. Villians: Joker/Clayface/Grundy/Lex pre president still in charge of Lex Corp. Luther's motive is a diversion(?)/unknown (I'm halfway hoping someone will pick up the thread) in helping to facilitate/finance the Joker's scheme.

I already gave a plot to the Supes story. I'm thinking (thanks to my wife) Superman: A Series of Unfortunate Events.


Rule call: Can I use mxyllphlyx or however it's spelled. I figure he should be able to crossover between universes. I don't want to use him as a villian per se, but more as comic relief.

[Askia]

Kythereia. I think I'll let the sign ups go on for another day or so, just to be sure we haven't missed anybody. I'm re-writing the scripts I wrote ages ago so I probably need to give you guys a head start.

So far me, Tengu and Stuffy have agreed to write two chapters each, one for Superman in the Marvel Universe and another with Spider-Man in the DCU. Creative enough to hang?

If so, think about what two stories you want to do; which characters you'll need; see if there's a conflict with any of the other writers. You'll need to post a plot and story title soon. And be creative. As Harborwolf put it: "I figured the point of the crossover was to give the characters something they haven't had. Supes find himself as an outsider and a bit hated (or at least less loved). Spider Man finds raw public affection and support almost instantaneously. That gives so much character and story potential it almost makes me giddy."Me, two. I love Swap!

(on Preview) Gee, Stuffy I was hoping we'd concentrate on just one character crossing over -- but you raise an interesting possibility I hadn't considered. With Mister Myxlptlk in the Marvel Universe plaguing Superman and the Marvel heroes he could disappear and go back to then DCU in a self-contained story without helping Superman. You got a plot idea yet? Story title?

Stuffy: Re: the Secret ID thing: I won't do much of the Clark Kent or Peter Parker thing in my chapters at all but don't let that stop you.

[Kythereia]

I'm definitely loving the potential on this! *is giddy, too* :D

I'll do one of each, too--let Tengu and Stuff post their plot summary first, then I'll build my plot and character needs around the situation they've shaped and post.

[Stuffy]

Kythereia. (on Preview) Gee, Stuffy I was hoping we'd concentrate on just one character crossing over -- but you raise an interesting possibility I hadn't considered. With Mister Myxlptlk in the Marvel Universe plaguing Superman and the Marvel heroes he could disappear and go back to then DCU in a self-contained story without helping Superman. You got a plot idea yet? Story title?

You seemed to have missed the plot and Story. See above. As for this story, the reason I want Mr. Myxlptlk, is that his hatred of Suped in directly proportional to his of Supes adulation. My idea is to have a series of Bugle editorials and blog entries both pro and con on Supes with Mr. Myxlptlk, turning the screws. I hadn't thoght of behind the scenes machinations.

Stuffy: Re: the Secret ID thing: I won't do much of the Clark Kent or Peter Parker thing in my chapters at all but don't let that stop you.

I'd like Supes in Kent persona at the Bugle to make Mr. Myxlptlk effective, with Robbie Roberson as a counter point.

[CandidGamera]

I'm still not sure, but I'd like to tentatively stake my claim on a story with Superman being temporarily recruited by a legion of superheroic types from the 30th century.. the Guardians of the Galaxy..

And, stepping into actual DCU continuity, not animated, for 'Spider-Man and His Amazing Super-Buddies', if for no other reason than Booster Gold, Blue Beetle, and Spidey would make for good dialogue.

[Askia]

....and sign-ups are closed. Thank you all for playing.

The Straight Dope Message Board Fanboy Collective (as I have unerringly decided to dub thee) of Askia, Stuffy, Tengu, CandidGamera and Kythereia will write a whopping 10 part epic, with Harborwolf, our hailed-fellow-well-met and criminal collaborator agreeing to be creative consultant.

A small change: Askia will DELAY posting the set-up on tomorrow afternoon as promised, until the rest of the you give him the go ahead. There will be NO shipping delays on this storyline! HE WILL DO SO IN A BRAND NEW THREAD unimaginatively untitled SWAP! The Beginning by the SDMBFC, linking to this one for commentary and planning! It sets up how Spider-Man and Superman ended up swapping universes by unknown means; how they ended up trapped in each other's universe with no idea how to get back home; and how they meet up with the Avengers and the JLA and meet the challenge of the DCUs Brain Quintet and the worst villain in the Marvel universe -- the jaundiced J. Jonah Jameson! My new rewrite of the story fragment that appeared in another (hijacked) thread looks to be the equivalent of about 10 pages long, folks. :eek: I know, I know... but it's butter.

The next part of this post will be taken over by the escaped split personality consciousness who dares help edit this collaborative conundrum -- Affable Askia, scientifically suspect but spectacularly spiritual soulful son of Stan Lee --suffused with the superlative stuff to sell this fanfic with his superpowered schtick, slick!

****

In all honesty my artistic-amigos-in-arms, I forget who's supposed to be talking now, but let's get going with a segment I call THE PLOT RUNDOWNS SO FAR.

Askia achingly ameliorates (again) :
"My two chapters are "The Last Temptation of Spider-Man" starring Spidey, Lex Luthor and a bunch of Lexcorps flunkies, in which Luthor and Spider-Man have lunch and ol' baldy makes Spidey an offer he can't refuse... and "Superman versus the Mole Man" with Supes, a cameo of assorted Avengers and the Fantastic Four versus the Mole Man and his Kirby Creature Collective out on Monster Isle, in search of a way home for Superman."

--- to what can I say to that but... it's practically perfection. To my mind there were three comparable events in all of literary history as notable as the announcement of those two plots. The Bible. Shakespeare's folio. And now... Askia's fanfic. Mein Gott, it's so wonderful I'm channelling dead German people. -- Affable Askia.

NEXT.

****

Tengu tells us about his tour-de-force:
"Batman/Spidey - just Peter tagging along with Bruce. Would have to be placed early in the storyline, the two of them interacting for the first time. Trading advice, Peter driving Bruce nuts, that sort of thing. The dialogue with Joker and Peter and when Peter meets Selina are the key points.

Cap/Iron Man/Supes - The first line is 'I just remembered who you remind me of!' From either Cap or Tony. I don't want to spoil things too much, but geeky enough people ought to be able to figure out what's going on. Would have to go late in the game. Perhaps including one of the variants of the character in question."

-- Sounds good! Sounds promising! Sounds mysterious! Sounds suspiciously like stalling... BUT I DO NOT JUDGE! :D Good luck with the writing and please, please, please, don't forget to let us know the titles will be! You have me suffering on pins and needles here, and not just because I want to read your works! I just want to read them with TITLES. Don't disappoint an old man. -- Affable Askia.

NEXT.

****

Stuffy sez
"As for this story, the reason I want Mr. Myxlptlk, is that his hatred of Supes in directly proportional to his Supes adulation. My idea is to have a series of Bugle editorials and blog entries both pro and con on Supes with Mr. Myxlptlk, turning the screws. I hadn't thoght of behind the scenes machinations. I'd like Supes in Kent persona at the Bugle to make Mr. Myxlptlk effective, with Robbie Roberson as a counter point. I'm thinking (thanks to my wife) Superman: A Series of Unfortunate Events.

I didn't expect to have it so soon, but the title for the Spiderman title will be "Just like Home" As previously mentioned Spidey/Bats/Flash team up. Villians: Joker/Clayface/Grundy/Lex pre president still in charge of Lex Corp. Luther's motive is a diversion(?)/unknown (I'm halfway hoping someone will pick up the thread) in helping to facilitate/finance the Joker's scheme. Should be comedy gold."

-- The first story sounds mighty ambitious in terms of style -- I can't wait to read them both, Stuffy! For you to even envision an entree of eponymous epics like that you're surely denying yourself sleep, supper, showering and snuggling time with your sexy spouse to give it the dynamic due diligence it decidely deserves. Put 'er there! Or y'know... wait on your wife. P.S. Thank her for me for that one title. It's butter. -- Affable Askia

NEXT.

***

CandidGamera confesses cagily:
"I'm still not sure, but I'd like to tentatively stake my claim on a story with Superman being temporarily recruited by a legion of superheroic types from the 30th century.. the Guardians of the Galaxy..

And, stepping into actual DCU continuity, not animated, for 'Spider-Man and His Amazing Super-Buddies', if for no other reason than Booster Gold, Blue Beetle, and Spidey would make for good dialogue."

-- Great scenarios, but I always expect the best from CGI! (That's "CandidGamera's Imagination.") We need some conflict, pronto, ese! We need either Murderously Maurading Marvel Mayhem-Masters like the Chronojaunting Kang the Conqueror or Decidedly Devious DCU dimensional despots like the Thirtieth Century Time Trapper. Or perhaps you're going (as the youngerster put it) "old school" for a nostalgic madcap romp like thrusting this titillating trio on Koobooeykoobooeykoobooey Island! P.S. Thanks for one title.. got another? -- Affable Askia

***

Finally, our frantic and frenetic friend Kythereia chimes in:

"I'll do one of each, too--let Tengu and Stuff post their plot summary first, then I'll build my plot and character needs around the situation they've shaped and posted."

I have it on double secret accurate military intelligence that when Tengu and Stuffy aren't chained to their writing desks to frantically finish their fanfic fantasies they're blowing off steam doing word-for-word in-costume reinactments of Pulp Fiction as hitmen Jules and Vincent. They keep arguing which one of them gets to wear Sam-the-Man-Jackson's 'fro, tho. Kythereia -- I hate to break it ya, but -- you may have to come up with your own stories. Good luck, Effendi -- and try not to let your fear-laden knocking knees keep anyone awake tonight! You will rise to the challenge or your loan shark "Cookie" will want to know why. --Affable Askia

As the Bullpen editor once bluntly put it: LET'S SELL S'MORE!

[CandidGamera]

Oh, you're just trying to keep me roped in, now.

What's the deadline?

[Askia]

Realistically? The deadline's whenever most of you guys are ready to post your chapters. I'm a bit worried since nobody's mentioned anything all day yesterday but hopefully that just means you're busy writing.

I'd like to post my 4-part SWAP! Prologues first thing Friday morning and give you guys the weekend to read it, comment, write yours and maybe post your chapters starting on Monday at the latest.

I gotta say, I'm really looking forward to reading some of the plots. Not to play favorites, but at this point I'm really interested in Stuffy's Bugle article vs. blog of Mister Myxlpltk running amok in the Marvel Universe and seeing whatever Kythereia comes up with. The actual writing however, will be the most interesting of all.

[Askia]

Here's two samples from my Prologues.

Even though he opened the door as quietly as he could she still stirred as he entered; he wasn’t the only one with superhuman hearing. “Clark?”

“Lois. Honey. Hey.”

In the dark, he could see her eyes narrow, her lips pushed to a pout. “I haven’t heard from you in two days, Smallville. You could have called.”

“I know. I’m sorry. That Justice League business with the White Martians in Z’onn Z’orr got ---messy. I’ll tell you about it sometime. And I promised to fly back over the rural areas in Louisiana and Mississippi to help the fishermen rescue their boats and help evacuees move back to their homes. Not to mention the flood damage that’s still downtown in New Orleans… I still wish I’d gotten there faster.”

“Flood damage? Thanks to you, it was less than two feet spread out over a measly half a square mile. You fixed those broken levees so fast it barely seemed they’d been broken. What was it that rapper -- Kanye West -- said? That clip that’s so popular because it’s so funny? ‘That Superman, he really cares about black people.’ You’re a hero.“

*****

A rotund and balding man answers with unshakeable aplomb. “Master Spider-Man. Finished with your patrol?”

“Jarvis! M’man! What kept you? You know Stark didn’t give me a key to this window yet?”

“I trust Master Stark is making preparations for you to have access to the building at this height -- as you simply seem incapable of using the common elevator. Coffee?”

“Sure. It’s getting cold. Pigeons walk around like extras in March of The Penguins.”

“Ah. Very droll, sir.”

Spider-Man sighed gave Jarvis a resigned clap on the back. “Gotta get you to loosen up around me, Jeeves. Night!” Spider-Man leaped on the wall and twisted his torso perpendicular to the floor. Knees to ceiling, palms to surface, he skittered across the top of the wall and disappeared down the hall.

Thought Jarvis: He’s an excellent hero, whatever his bad press, really. He’s a credit to the Avengers. But -- by God, he really does move like a giant cockroach up there.

[CandidGamera]

Well, we'll see what I can manage, time-wise.. it appears to be a busy week.

[Askia]

CandidGamera. To you and everyone else. Time is not of the essence here; the essence is in the quality of the work. I'd rather the writing be as good as you can make it than a sloppy rush job. Take. Your. Time. On the other hand: be mindful of your promises.

[CandidGamera]

CandidGamera. To you and everyone else. Time is not of the essence here; the essence is in the quality of the work. I'd rather the writing be as good as you can make it than a sloppy rush job. Take. Your. Time. On the other hand: be mindful of your promises.

I've made no promises! My posts are carefully laced with disclaimers. :D

And actually, I've pondered my Superman idea and discovered that I really don't want to deal with some Guardians continuity issues, so I will probably have to totally switch that idea around. Perhaps the Shiar Imperial Guard instead.

[Kamino Neko]

Perhaps the Shiar Imperial Guard instead.

Superman: Are...we...related?

Gladiator: I...don't...know. You do remind me of my younger brother.

:p

[CandidGamera]

Heh heh. No, not quite.

My new Superman story germ is predicated on Superman working with Reed and Stark on a device to try and get home - but the device is disrupting the fabric of reality. The Shiar come to investigate the unusual disturbance, realizing if they don't stop the device, the universe will cease to exist in 24 hours.

I'll call it 'Whatever Happened to the Day After Tomorrow?'

[Harborwolf]

Heh heh. No, not quite.

My new Superman story germ is predicated on Superman working with Reed and Stark on a device to try and get home - but the device is disrupting the fabric of reality. The Shiar come to investigate the unusual disturbance, realizing if they don't stop the device, the universe will cease to exist in 24 hours.

I'll call it 'Whatever Happened to the Day After Tomorrow?'
I was trying to think of a good way to get Superman and Gladiator to square off. That sounds absolutely brilliant......except for the name. Anything that reminds me of that movie is very very bad. ;)

[Askia]

Harborwolf. The name of CandidGamera's story is likely an homage to Alan Moore's Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? Which CG may write, or then again, he may not :D

[Harborwolf]

Harborwolf. The name of CandidGamera's story is likely an homage to Alan Moore's Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? Which CG may write, or then again, he may not :D
I don't care. That movie sucked so much that I got PTSD from it. As creative consultant, I demand that the title be changed. :p

And how much ass does that kick? I'm the creative consultant. I have absolutely no responsibilities. I just get to bitch and nitpick. I don't even have to actually write anything. :D

Just kidding. I promise to take my job very *snicker* seriously.

:Bites lip and runs out of thread before yelling "SUCKERS" and bursting into laughter:

[Askia]

As creative consultant, you'll have to give that titular demand the full weight of your titular authority with CandidGamera. Good luck with that.

Marvel had a Bullpen. Clearly the SDMBFC has an Asylum.

Let's sell some more!

[Stuffy]

I'm still in, I've been working on the outlines, which invloves much scribbling and strike outs. I plan to start seriously writing Friday, the day I spend the least time working. My plots are unchanged.

P.S. I plan to use several unfleshed scenarios for the Editorial/Blog entries Kythereia may find fodder in there for a story as well.

[Kythereia]

*pitching in* I'm working on my own plots and dialogue right now, just let me know when I should post...

[Harborwolf]

Something I thought of today as a possibility for sapping the super out of Superman. The last explanation I heard for Supermans powers was that he absorbed the energy of the rays of the red sun and stored it like a battery. This was the explanation they used to back out of Supermans death at the hands of Doomsday. He had simply used up all of his juice and went into a deathlike coma. Kind of silly when you think that the whole cyborg superman bit could've been avoided if they'd laid his corpse out on a beach.

Anyway, what if the rays of the marvel sun were just a smidge off plum from the DC universe. Not enough to affect the formation of life, etc. on Earth, but just enough to affect the absorption rate of people from a certain non-existent planet. Superman would start off with a full charge but would slowly get weaker and weaker, possibly down into the mortal range of powers.

Scientifically speaking, it's shaky as all heck. It may be comic booky though. Superman could start experiencing weakness as the story goes on: a sort of wobble midflight, having to work harder to lift really big things, etc. A brief explanation to Reed about how his powers work and a few panels of Superman being scanned and tested and Reed breaks the news. He can probably figure a way to recharge Superman, but it will take time. Trouble breaks out and a physically weakened and mentally shaken (via previous bad experiences)Superman has to rush into battle. Thusly we (and Clark) find the true measure of the Man of steel.

Use it or not. Thought I'd drop it in for ya'll to kick around.

[CandidGamera]

Sorry, Harbor - that kind of notion basically alters every story of the Superman half of the arc fundamentally - instead of getting a generic 'Superman in the Marvel Universe' story, we get a very specific 'Superman dealing with lessened powers in the Marvel Universe'.

It imposes too much restriction on the resultant stories.

[Harborwolf]

Sorry, Harbor - that kind of notion basically alters every story of the Superman half of the arc fundamentally - instead of getting a generic 'Superman in the Marvel Universe' story, we get a very specific 'Superman dealing with lessened powers in the Marvel Universe'.

It imposes too much restriction on the resultant stories.Like I said, I wasn't trying to impose a restriction on all of the stories. Earlier in the thread I know I brought up the difficulty in dealing with a character of Supermans power levels. This was a possible idea I had regarding that issue. It also provides a nice parallel with every time Parker has had problems with his powers and fits in with the "taste of how the other half lives" concept.

Just making suggestions Gamera. Not trying to lock down stories. Remember, I'm just the creative consultant. I'm not the editor in chief. :)

We could also do a massive overblown story arc of superclones :D

: D&R :

[CandidGamera]

We could also do a massive overblown story arc of superclones :D

: D&R :

Believe me, I considered that very angle for my story - you know what happens when you clone Kryptonian DNA, right?

[Kamino Neko]

Believe me, I considered that very angle for my story - you know what happens when you clone Kryptonian DNA, right?

Me know. Me am so horribly stupid that way. Me angry me know that.

[Harborwolf]

Believe me, I considered that very angle for my story - you know what happens when you clone Kryptonian DNA, right?
Me am have remembered that. Me am so good.

Either that or you get a radioactive blond man with radioactive claws. You also get a lousy movie. What you won't get back is your money or the time you wasted watching the lousy movie.

[Askia]

Hey. I Haven't Forgotten. I'll Post The Thread Tonight When I Get Home. Promise. Sorry For The Delay.

[Askia]

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=335481

Okay. I finally started the fanfic thread. Sorry about being late with the first intallments.

Please post all story commentary here instead of the other thread.

[foolsguinea]

Well, I'm no great fan of trying to translate sequential-cartooning characters to prose, but you did well here. Not quite how I would have characterized the wives, but overall pretty good.

[Askia]

Thanks. I admit my characterization of Lois Lane and Mary Jane Watson can be all over the place.

I'm trying to post parts III and IV tonight because I'm going out in a little while and I have no idea when I'll be back. Unfortunately I'm discovering that the SDMB has a character limit per post and my sections are too long. Oy, vey!

[Harborwolf]

Very nice. The scene with Supes and MJ was very similar to what I wrote before I wussed out due to lack of familiarity with Superman in general. :o

The only thing that I noticed was the way Jonah treated Captain America. AFAIK, it would never go down like that. Remember that Captain America is a certified war hero circa WWII. He hates Spidey, but Captain America is the real deal as far as Jonah is concerned.

Other than that small point, I loved it.

Distantly he heard a voice screaming, “Oh, my God. What the hell are you doing to my building?” :D This part was especially good. :D

[Harborwolf]

“But it didn’t go off! said Spider-Girl. “You sure that was it? Why’d you throw the whole truck in the river?”Forgot this part. Loved it. :D

[Harborwolf]

Hey. Look at me. Three posts in a row. That's the hat trick right there. :p

Had a thought last night while I was struggling to sleep and I thought I'd drop it here for consideration amongst the writers.

Superman, upon returning to Avengers mansion, has an encounter with Mary Jane. She still wants to know what happened to her husband, and she holds Superman responsible. She tearfully pleads with Superman to give her some answer and tell her what he plans to do to bring him back, and he can't answer her.

I liked this idea for one main reason. It contrasts nicely with Spider Mans dealings with Lois. Lois has really had nothing to fear when it comes to Superman. Dudes a friggin god. He always comes back. Who needs to worry? On the other hand, Mary Jane has always understood why Peter does what he does, but lives with the same sort of fear that the wife of a police officer/fireman/member of the armed forces lives with: someday he isn't going to come home. He is far closer to mortal status than Superman. He regularly comes home bruised. His villains have come a lot closer to killing him than Supermans have. I just think that this would be a good chance to bring MJ into the plot more and provide a solid counterpoint to what's taking place in the Spider Man story line.

And of course this is completely optional. Just thought I'd drop in another idea for ya'll to chew on. :)

[CandidGamera]

Well, I got nothing done on this this weekend, but I do have a firm outline for my Superman half, and a pretty good outline for my Spidey half, so looks like I'm still in.

Superman Half : Definitely taking place at the Bazter Building, with cameos by Reed and Iron Man, possibly some other FFers. Definitely involving the Imperial Guard. I'm seeing it as occurring later in Superman's visit to Earth 616, as it will definitely end on an "up" note as far as his confidence in his ability to work on this Alternate Earth.

Spider-Man Half : Definitely main DCU continuity - Booster Gold and Blue Beetle come looking for Spidey as a potential recruit for the Super-Buddies. (So this is pre-Identity Crisis - let me know if that's a problem for anyone.)

[Askia]

CandidGamera. I think for all intents and purposes our crossover ignores most of what's going on for Identity Crisis and Infinite Crisis and House of M and the like, although you could conceivably do fanboy references to them.

Everyone. So? What'd y'all think of the beginning PROLOGUES? I'm not working for money, I'm working for praise and criticism and feedback. At least tell me I convinced you that you could do better...

[CandidGamera]

CandidGamera. I think for all intents and purposes our crossover ignores most of what's going on for Identity Crisis and Infinite Crisis and House of M and the like, although you could conceivably do fanboy references to them.

Everyone. So? What'd y'all think of the beginning PROLOGUES? I'm not working for money, I'm working for praise and criticism and feedback. At least tell me I convinced you that you could do better...

I haven't read the prologue yet, but I'll get to it. :) It's Monday, things are slow to start on Monday.

[Askia]

Groan. It's because it's too long, isn't it? I was afraid of that.. I got to riffing on different parts of it and it turned out muuuuch longer than I thought.

[CandidGamera]

No, I seriously just hadn't made the time to look at it yet. I'm reading it now - I dig the 50's SciFi movie references - seems a touch more risque in a couple places than I expected. And you mentioned the Toyman! That will impact my Spidey story a little. But I can make it work.

[klintypooh]

I excitedly opened the actual fanfic thread as I saw another post was there, only to find out it was a bump. :(

[Askia]

It was a nudge! A NUDGE!

klintypooh hated my PROLOGUES. *sob!*

Linky-link. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=335481)

[Sean Factotum]

Askia I bow to your creative processes. I'm a fan (non-fanboy level) of both Supes and Spidey. I really like how you've started the story - very believable to me. And while I've only read up to when Superman meets Wolverine in the Swap thread, I think you're well on the way to Something Big. And no, it's not too long.

I really hope the line about Wolvie recognizing Clark ("Glasses? Nice disguise.") gets in there.

I have one question, and there is no blame in my voice when I ask this: How are you working in the various Marvel/DC crossovers, including the oversized Spiderman vs Superman book from the '70s, into this story? These characters have interacted before.


Excelsior! to you and your Asylum.

[CandidGamera]

Couple of typoes in your prologue, Askia. And the end of your Spidey section curtails my story idea, with Booster being there.. and throws us into uncertain continuity, with Hal.

Dammit.

[CandidGamera]

Also.. Spider-GIRL?

[Stuffy]

A great beginning so far Askia I'm also a bit behind. I'm about a quarter of the way through my Spidey story.

[Askia]

CandidGamera. Hal's back. We'll just conveniently overlook why or how unless somebody feels they must. I'm sorry about Booster Gold -- I thought I was doing you a favor introducing him at the end so you could re-introduce him later. :smack: How can I help you fix that?

:confused: Yeah.. it's Spider-Girl (Jessica Drew) who's in the Avengers now. Right?

You're making me nervous, dude. What else did I miss? Nitpick away, I'm here to get better.

Sean Factorum. Thanks for the kind words. The paradigm re: DC/Marvel crossovers of the 1970s and 80s has shifted ever since The big DC vs. Marvel Amalgam event of the early 90s that introduced the two cosmic "brothers." They no longer share the same world so they won't recognize each other. They didn't recognize each other during JLA AVENGERS either. Chances are referring to previous team-ups won't happen unless somebody evokes DC's Hypertime or possibly Marvel universe's the Watcher or (hmmm. Brainstorming now.) Morpheus of the Endless.

[CandidGamera]

CandidGamera. Hal's back. We'll just conveniently overlook why or how unless somebody feels they must. I'm sorry about Booster Gold -- I thought I was doing you a favor introducing him at the end so you could re-introduce him later. :smack: How can I help you fix that?

:confused: Yeah.. it's Spider-Girl (Jessica Drew) who's in the Avengers now. Right?

You're making me nervous, dude. What else did I miss? Nitpick away, I'm here to get better.

Actually, I might be able to deal with Hal. My planned epilogue for the Spidey story takes place at Warriors, which got blowed up at the beginning of GL : Rebirth; I can always posit that Guy rebuilt it. Hal being back puts us after Identity Crisis, though - which stretches the credibility of the continued existence of the 'Super-Buddies'. Also squeezes my story necessarily in the short gap between IC and 'Countdown'. I'll live, I suppose.

The Booster thing - I had intended Booster and Beetle to be meeting Spidey for the first time in this case, and I'm wondering why Booster's involved with the official League honor ceremony at all. I can work around it, but it puzzles me.

Jessica Drew is Spider-Woman.

[CandidGamera]

Re-reading, it seems that you've made Booster an actual, current member of the League. Which does actually shut me down. Hrrrm. I will ponder.

[Askia]

CandidGamera. There's a badly expanded on line about there being reporters and DCU heroes in attendence at the conference announcing that Spider-Man is a new member of the Justice League. Booster's own pronouncements of "we've got space for you," notwithstanding, I meant for Booster to be a former Leaguer in attendance at best. In fact, when he was pouring Spidey champange, I meant to include a snarky allusion to him (and Blue Beetle) as being part of the wait staff. That pushes it back to "Super-Buddies" territory.

Again, I was just ham-fistedly trying to shoehorn Booster Gold into the proceedings, which should be a caution to anyone else who introduces characters someone else may have designs on.

[CandidGamera]

In a collaborative project like this, it's best to remember - any detail you establish, no matter how well-intentioned, is, in essence, an obstacle that subsequent writers have to work around.

I appreciate the thought behind it, but the scene's really hard to for to reconcile. I'll think it over. Maybe I'll just do the Superman half. I dunno.

[CandidGamera]

...really hard to for to reconcile.

'..really hard for me to reconcile.' Don't mind me, I just got up from a nap.

[parthenokinesis]

Askia, I really enjoyed what you have written so far. The whole world perception juxtification the two main characters are experiencing works quite well, even better than expected from your previously posted summaries. Of course, now I'm stuck waiting for the next chapter. Sigh. Maybe you should just ditch the dead weight and finish the story yourself ;)

I kid, I kid. However, Stuffy, Tengu, CandidGamera and Kythereia you all had better get crackin, I want more to read!

[klintypooh]

It was a nudge! A NUDGE!

klintypooh hated my PROLOGUES. *sob!*

Linky-link. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=335481)
Now I'm confused, Askia, I really enjoyed the prologues which is why I was disappointed to only see a nudge when I was expecting more to read.

[Catalyst]

Great stuff so far. I don't know anything about the Avengers, but the obvious contrast with the Justice League is interesting. My only criticism is that I really don't care for all of the real-world references; they completely drag me out of the story.

Some questions: exactly how badly are vibranium and adamantium able to injure Superman? Did Logan merely cut Superman's hand, or did he punch a hole through it? How quickly does Superman heal from that sort of injury?

[CandidGamera]

Superman has demonstrated extremely rapid regeneration from injury before, especially when no kryptonite is involved to complicate the process - but just as it's hard to gauge the severity of an injury on a fine scale, it's hard to gauge healing response on a fine scale.

And personally, I wholeheartedly reject the idea of the special metals of the Marvel Universe being able to harm Supes at "normal" force levels, but nobody asked me. :)

[Catalyst]

And personally, I wholeheartedly reject the idea of the special metals of the Marvel Universe being able to harm Supes at "normal" force levels, but nobody asked me. :)
For what it's worth, I agree. The problem is, if there's no kryptonite, what on Earth-616 has any hope of posing a threat to Superman? Somehow blocking out solar radiation for an extended period of time might do it, but I don't know how long that would take or what could do it in the first place.

Are there any villains with super-weakness-finding powers? Perhaps someone could synthesize kryptonite and Superman's adamantium-induced injury can be explained away as temporary weakness from the swap (maybe it drained his reserves of solar energy or something).

[CandidGamera]

For what it's worth, I agree. The problem is, if there's no kryptonite, what on Earth-616 has any hope of posing a threat to Superman? Somehow blocking out solar radiation for an extended period of time might do it, but I don't know how long that would take or what could do it in the first place.

Are there any villains with super-weakness-finding powers? Perhaps someone could synthesize kryptonite and Superman's adamantium-induced injury can be explained away as temporary weakness from the swap (maybe it drained his reserves of solar energy or something).

It's not a huge concern for me - as I said previously, my status in this whole thing is uncertain.

But just to run down some notions - there are individuals in the Marvel U who could conceivably pose a raw threat to Big Blue, including the Hulk, Juggernaut, Silver Surfer, etc. There's always magic or psionics. And there are a number of technically proficient villains like Ultron or Doctor Doom who might plausibly "analyze Superman's bio-aura" and discover vulnerabilities to specific sorts of radiation - kryptonite, or red sun.

[Askia]

klintypooh. I was kidding when I said you hated it.

CandidGamera: Yeah, nobody asked you. Neener, neener, neener.

Catalyst. I'm weird when it comes to superpowers like invulnerability, super-fast healing factors, super-sensitive super-touch, withstanding temperature extremes like burns and subzero and ultra-sharp metals. How do genetic evolutionary survival skills like sensitivity and pain figure in to all this?

Basically my approach to invulnerability is that is has to do with the idea that some superheroes simply possess extraordinarily high thresholds of pain. They can feel fire just fine, it just doesn't bother them. Their skin may feel ordinary but it's very damage resistant.

This, coupled with the very real need to have Marvel's adamantium, uru metal and vibranium play a role against Superman's superpowers gave me a way to write him, one I think most of the collaborative writers can follow.

So: I postulated that the special proto-adamantium shield thrown at full strength by Captain America at the back of Superman's head is just enough to cause Superman to mutter "...ow," and rub it. That's not very painful, is it? I think that if Wolverine popped a claw and cut Superman's hand, it'll leave what might be politely termed a "gash" which, like a paper cut, might be an annoying pain but usually not an incapacitating one. Note that I don't have Superman's hand described as a larcerated mess or him whimpering on the ground in pain.

That's what happens at more or less normal levels. We can expect bigger pain reactions from Superman when adamantium is used with greater strength or at faster velocities.

Sorry, you didn't care for some of the real-world references to Superman and Hurricane Katrina. It's part of my wish fulfillment that when stuff like this happens in the real world I wish there were a Superman around.

[Askia]

P.S... regarding Wolverine cutting Superman: this obviously wouldn't work with just his bone claws. Just sayin'.

[CandidGamera]

Heh.

Just by the way of a footnote for anyone eagerly anticipating stuff from me - don't get your hopes up. Unless I come up with some new Spidey story idea, I'm nixing that half. As for the Superman - well, my motivation for participation was the Spidey stuff, and the Superman story was a bit of an afterthought - may still do it if I can muster the time and will, but not certain.

[Stuffy]

I expect to be through with my Spidey story tommorow, should I submit it for straight to the SWAP thread?

[Askia]

I expect to be through with my Spidey story tommorow, should I submit it for straight to the SWAP thread? Absolutely! Can't wait!

[Askia]

Just by the way of a footnote for anyone eagerly anticipating stuff from me - don't get your hopes up. Unless I come up with some new Spidey story idea, I'm nixing that half. As for the Superman - well, my motivation for participation was the Spidey stuff, and the Superman story was a bit of an afterthought - may still do it if I can muster the time and will, but not certain. DON'T NIX IT JUST YET. I just had a thought. Since the screw-up introducing Booster Gold was entirely mine, why not go ahead and submit it anyway, and we can have a mini-contest explaining the apparant contradiction among our audience. We'll call it a "KNOW" PRIZE -- because we all really know who's at fault here. :D

I'd seriously hate to miss out on reading a good story you wrote featuring the madcap antics of Booster Gold, Blue Beetle and Spidey or some new Spidey ploy you're in love with just because of my flub. However, if you're merely looking for a gracious way out of this project with your fanboy reputation intact because you feel there's no way your inferior wordsmithing can possibly seem even barely competent next to the efforts of myself and the other members of the SDMBFC -- well. You're shit out of luck. Sorry. WE'RE SUPERHERO GANGSTAS, YO. There is no "out." Once you're a Jet -- you're a Jet all the waaaaaaaay. :p

[Harborwolf]

But just to run down some notions - there are individuals in the Marvel U who could conceivably pose a raw threat to Big Blue, including the Hulk, Juggernaut, Silver Surfer, etc. There's always magic or psionics. And there are a number of technically proficient villains like Ultron or Doctor Doom who might plausibly "analyze Superman's bio-aura" and discover vulnerabilities to specific sorts of radiation - kryptonite, or red sun.
In terms of raw power, I'd put old school juggernaut and the hulk on par with Superman. The problem is that Juggsy is a good guy now and has experienced a drop in strength since joining the team. Apparently Cytorrak is tired of the whole villain to hero thing too. The Hulk is also a good guy and has been voted "hero most likely to fight another hero" by his graduating class at his last reunion. That horse died, got better, and died again. Silver Surfer? Why bring the hood ornament into this? Not to mention his dialogue and constant brooding makes him just as clunky a character as Thor.

I like the adamantium/vibranium. It keeps things nice and simple and holds true to the general rules inherent to the marvel universe. I agree that it should take more than normal strength level to cause serious injury, but given adamantiums properties, a properly sharpened blade or claw could give him a shallow cut even at human power.

[CandidGamera]

DON'T NIX IT JUST YET. I just had a thought. Since the screw-up introducing Booster Gold was entirely mine, why not go ahead and submit it anyway, and we can have a mini-contest explaining the apparant contradiction among our audience. We'll call it a "KNOW" PRIZE -- because we all really know who's at fault here. :D

I'd seriously hate to miss out on reading a good story you wrote featuring the madcap antics of Booster Gold, Blue Beetle and Spidey or some new Spidey ploy you're in love with just because of my flub. However, if you're merely looking for a gracious way out of this project with your fanboy reputation intact because you feel there's no way your inferior wordsmithing can possibly seem even barely competent next to the efforts of myself and the other members of the SDMBFC -- well. You're shit out of luck. Sorry. WE'RE SUPERHERO GANGSTAS, YO. There is no "out." Once you're a Jet -- you're a Jet all the waaaaaaaay. :p

We'll see. I like the idea of the know-prize.

[CandidGamera]

I like the adamantium/vibranium. It keeps things nice and simple and holds true to the general rules inherent to the marvel universe. I agree that it should take more than normal strength level to cause serious injury, but given adamantiums properties, a properly sharpened blade or claw could give him a shallow cut even at human power.

Not to hijack the thread terribly, but here's my issue in a nutshell - Cap's Shield and Wolverine's claws are just really durable metal. While that would make them difficult for Superman to damage, durability doesn't inherently increase something's damaging properties - just the amount of force with which it can be used without breaking.

Frex, Wolverine tries to gut Superman. He fails. The Hulk grabs Wolverine's wrist, and hurls him, claws-first, into Superman - Superman gets cut. But since Adamantium and Vibranium don't feature in my story idea for this at all, I don't need to take issue with Askia's editorial decision. ;)

[Askia]

Granted. But if an adamantium weapon has a razor-sharp cutting edge that doesn't ever dull or even oxidize, I think we can surmise the Wolverine juuuust might cause minor-to-moderate damage wielding just "ordinary" human strength to even something with Superman's invulnerablity. This isn't pre-Crisis Superman here. I mean, I've seen Supes bruised and beaten on plenty of occassions.

This isn't really a hijack because we are discussing the pros and cons of this universe I set up. Glad to hear you liked the "Know-Prize" idea.

[CandidGamera]

Granted. But if an adamantium weapon has a razor-sharp cutting edge that doesn't ever dull or even oxidize, I think we can surmise the Wolverine juuuust might cause minor-to-moderate damage wielding just "ordinary" human strength to even something with Superman's invulnerablity. This isn't pre-Crisis Superman here. I mean, I've seen Supes bruised and beaten on plenty of occassions.

This isn't really a hijack because we are discussing the pros and cons of this universe I set up. Glad to hear you liked the "Know-Prize" idea.

Fair enough, then I'll feel free to continue the not-hijack.

If one accepts Superman's vulnerability as being based on ultra-dense skin alone, then a very sharp implement might be enough to offset it. However, when have we seen Superman cut without magic, kryptonite, or tremendous strength behind the implement?

I'm of the "density + personal skintight forcefield" school when it comes to Superman's invulnerability, and a forcefield situation renders sharpness moot.

To cite one previous crossover, Reed Richard's analysis of Superman's durability indicated that the Man of Steel was at least as tough as adamantium, himself.

And I must say, the notion of Superman being shivved by the Secret Society of SuperVillains, all wielding Ginsu knives, is a little silly. ;)

[Harborwolf]

All good points Gamera, but most Superman info comes from DC. In marvel town, adamantium is da shiznit....whatever that means. It cuts anything except adamantium. I should also point out that Wolvie cuts through steel on a fairly regular basis using his own wolvie strength and his incredibly sharp claws. They were forged in the knivery division of Apocalypse Labratories. He should be well equipped to do damage of the highly non lethal variety to Superman.

Captain Americas shield is a combination of adamantium and vibranium with a pinch of very sharp wisconsin cheddar for flavor. It also won't kill him, but I see no reason why a good toss to the back of his head wouldn't deserve at least an "ow."

It's not as if we're trying to set up every two bit thug in Marvelia with adamantium bullets and vibranium long johns. Both metals are rare (or at least should be) and will remain so for story purposes, unlike....oh I dunno...kryptonite which comes in a variety of colors and flavors available commonly around the planet. I guess Krypton exploded in such a way that all surviving matter strafed the earth like buckshot out of a shotgun. ;)

Mostly it's being used as plot devices to establish to the reader and to the character that this ain't Metropolis. It will help keep the story closer to street level and away from cosmic entities, Dormammu, N'astrih, and the like which is more in tune with typical marvel storylines. It's just gonna make it easier on the poor slobs trying to write a marvel story with Superman.

You cool with it as long as it doesn't get beaten to death?

[CandidGamera]

You cool with it as long as it doesn't get beaten to death?

Oh, assuming I write my story, it won't even come up.

Willfully ignoring it, you might say.

[Askia]

CandidGamera, Harborwolf. Sorry for not responding to this earlier.

CG made a few of his usual salient observations (DAMN HIM!) and brought up the Dan Jurgens Fantastic Four/ Superman comic I never got around to reading and Reed Richard's assessment of Superman's invulnerability respective to adamantium. He also brought up the troubling prospect of Superman's bio-aura and how is it Superman can be injured by anything at "normal strength."

An aluminum knife can puncture an unopened aluminum can of soda without much strength at all with a flick of the wrist at the right angle, spilling its contents rather easily.

Of course, that can of soda isn't sheathed in a force-field, but you get my general gist.

Now, I have much less faith in invisible force fields' impregnability than most, particularly Superman's somewhat ill-defined solar powered bio-aura, since I think that any barrier that allows light, sound, heat, perspiration*, blood** and shed skin cells*** to pass through it isn't much of a barrier at all. It clearly fluctuates in strength and intensity depending on Superman's level of exertion and possibly his conscious/subconscious desires: he'd have it on fighting Doomsday but most likely would have it off making love to his wife.

I've seen Superman cut at normal strength once by nonmagical, nonkryptonite means: a Masaai warrior whose body and spear was irridiated by Lex Luthor with red sun radiation in the original Superman Versus Spider-Man memorably cut Superman's indestructible hair. Of course this was non-canon and dead hair, but again, it gives us something to consider for our story.

I obviously have a patented Askia-style solution to all this, which involves logically reassessing Wolverine's strength when he possesses an adamantium skeleton attached to his bones and muscle tissue; riffing shamelessly from Alan Moore's "The Anatomy Lesson"; getting Reed Richards to admit he was wrong about an earlier assessment (!); delving into the secrets of adamantium's properties and not too insignificant revelations on a whole slew of early Marvel scientists -- Phineas Horton, Henry Pym -- including Dr. Myron MacLain, the creator of adamantium and his background and how exactly he created the stuff adamantium -- and most likely a treastie by a properly respectable DC scientist: Dr. Will Magus of the Metal Men, and another Marvel villain-- either Apocolypse or Doctor Doom.

Ready?

(I predict CandidGamera's gonna hate this...)

True adamantium is created using techniques common to alchemy.

Marvel universe alchemy, I'll posit, is a discipline between science and magic.

Dr. MacLain accidentally rediscovered certain alchemical principles in his creation of true adamantium. Thus, true adamantium is partly magical. This goes for vibranium as well, since it's otherworldly origin fits well with magic's need for rare substances as a focal point for mystic conconctions.

This explains in part why adamantium's so hard and expensive to re-create scientifically and why the more common result is the substance called secondary adamantium.

Not a perfect solution but an interesting one I hope.

* Superman has exerted himself where sweat has dripped off his face.

** Superman has been beaten/injured so severely blood dripped to the ground from his wounds, eyes and ears.

*** Superman memorably had a story in which his dead Kryptonian skin cells, which he sheds like any other human by the millions, somehow became sentient and tried to run amok -- or something. This is early in the John Byrne run and I traded a bunch of those comics for copies of Boris the Bear.

[Askia]

I have gotten my share of emails over the years. Here's another.

I am a long time lurker on the SDMB. (I have an account. But, I wasn't
reading the boards much when it went to pay. And, now I read a lot, but
never feel a need to post.) Anyway. After giving you my qualifications.
I have to tell you. Your Spider-man/Superman write up in CS this week was
marvelous. I think you did a great job of setting up a fun story.
Getting the characters to know one another in a typical comic book way. And, I think, you found a way to write an old kind of story and make it seem
fresh.

I really look forward to what happens to the story in the hands of the
others. Great job!

pat

C'MON, SDMBFC!! Time's a-wasting! Plenty of people have asked to see more... so let's see some more!

-- Affable Askia

[CandidGamera]

I don't have any time to write until at least Monday.

Regarding the solution - Meh. I don't know why you went to the trouble - as I said, makes no difference to my section.

[Askia]

I am irresistably called to a challenge, is why. :cool:

It's not about your section -- it's more at yet another story idea that began occuring to me after reading yours and Harborwolf's comments. I may do a follow-up to my Fantastic Four chapter and have Superman explore why adamantium and vibranium hurt him so much and why Reed Richard's bigotry towards magic can cause him to dismiss some other possibilities.

Also, it occurred to me alchemy is almost never expanded upon as a magical discipline outside of the Harry Potter universe. Not even Crowley, information on voodoo, DC's BOOKS OF MAGIC or PROMETHEA deals with it much -- and it's aching for exploration. The only self-proclaimed comic book alchemist I can think of is the Fantastic Four's enemy, Diablo, although the Absorbing Man is for all intents and purposes one and it's not a much of a stretch to consider Dr. Will Magnus an atomic one.

[Scott Plaid]

*** Superman memorably had a story in which his dead Kryptonian skin cells, which he sheds like any other human by the millions, somehow became sentient and tried to run amok -- or something. This is early in the John Byrne run and I traded a bunch of those comics for copies of Boris the Bear.I seem to remember his falling into a vat of Chemo, which then took on the form of a giant green SuperGolem. It was, as I recall, defeated by the Metal Men, via their surrounding it and blocking out all sunlight. Tin was shattered in the attempt, and Doc Magnus refused to rebuild him. Doc Magnus is a dick.

Oh, and Boris is teh awsome111!!!! Hail the Cosmic Can-opener! :D

[CandidGamera]

I am irresistably called to a challenge, is why. :cool:

It's not about your section -- it's more at yet another story idea that began occuring to me after reading yours and Harborwolf's comments. I may do a follow-up to my Fantastic Four chapter and have Superman explore why adamantium and vibranium hurt him so much and why Reed Richard's bigotry towards magic can cause him to dismiss some other possibilities.

Also, it occurred to me alchemy is almost never expanded upon as a magical discipline outside of the Harry Potter universe. Not even Crowley, information on voodoo, DC's BOOKS OF MAGIC or PROMETHEA deals with it much -- and it's aching for exploration. The only self-proclaimed comic book alchemist I can think of is the Fantastic Four's enemy, Diablo, although the Absorbing Man is for all intents and purposes one and it's not a much of a stretch to consider Dr. Will Magnus an atomic one.

Uhh.. what about..

Firestorm? Dr. Alchemy? The Molecule Man? Dr. Alchemy?

[Askia]

:smack:

I seriously forgot about him. I forget about the extant Rogues beyond Professor Zoom, Grodd, the Weather Wizard and Captain Cold, sometimes.

The other two you mentioned can transmute metals but have never once, to my knowledge, had their abilities explained in the manner of the 'solution' I proposed.

[CandidGamera]

:smack:

I seriously forgot about him. I forget about the extant Rogues beyond Professor Zoom, Grodd, the Weather Wizard and Captain Cold, sometimes.

The other two you mentioned can transmute metals but have never once, to my knowledge, had their abilities explained in the manner of the 'solution' I proposed.

Sure, but, did Absorbing Man's get explained that way? I honestly don't recall having seen it. And I know that Doc Magnus is not an alchemist by any conventional interpretation.

And then of course there's Chemical Boy and Element Lad

[Askia]

Well, just as Swamp Thing was eventually retconned into a plant elemental, I'm kinda toying with the idea of retconning the Absorbing Man into an alchemical elemental, somewhat similar to Metamorpho and the Element Girl as metamorphae -- since it was the Enchantress, a Norse goddess-sorceress, who gave him his abilities. Just as the Metal Men's responsometers have been retconned into devices that simply mimic the properties of the metals they are composed of rather than actually being those metals, I'm toying with the admittedly unconventional idea of making Dr. Will Magnus a modern-day atomic alchemist, although my idea is not entirely without precedent. I just flipped through my DC BLU RIBBON 100-PAGE DIGEST No. 34 featuring the original Rob Kanigher/Ross Andru METAL MEN issues and in the very first issue, on page three, there's one of those descriptive text boxes that says.. "In the inventive genius' laboratory complex, perfectly run by automation, where one mechanical hand takes the place of a thousand, ancient alchemy is easily surpassed by the wizardry of Will Magnus' modern science... [bolding mine]." when you throw "alchemy" and "wizardy" in the same sentence, I think it might be a legitimate interpretation. I did say they (MacClain and Magnus) re-discovered alchemical principles. I didn't say they set out to deliberately re-create them.

No more! I humbly ask you hit me up on an email if you want to talk more on this particular topic. I didn't want to fill this thread with spoiler boxes for a third story idea I'm not sure I'll have time to write.

[Askia]

ADDRESSES FROM THE ASYLUM

ITEM: I'm a bit concerned with the progress of SWAP! Superman and Spider-Man Fanfic. I'm woebegone. Stunned. Nay -- I'm dismayed. It's been a full week, SDMBFC fans, and so far I'm the only one of the Fanboy Collective who's posted complete written stories. Have you Aslyum Inmates been having so much fun writing your adventures with Superman battling Marvel baddies and Spider-Man's vexing DCU villains you've forgotten to post them? For shame, hogging all that story goodness to yourself! Don't you know there are story-starved children in Africa who hound their clunky dial-up connections waiting, just waiting for a sample of your imagined prose? Share the wealth! You're soaking in it!

Dopers who have posted to the boards and emailed me privately are excited about the ideas pitched! A lot of us are looking forward to reading the story ideas of "Scintillating" Stuffy, "Canny" CandidGamera, "Calculating" Kythereia and "Too-Cool" Tengu. Where the heck are they, Inmates?

[FANFIC COORDINATOR super-cape on] If any of you are stuck on story ideas, feel free to email me with any concerns, questions, changes or deadline extensions. Sometimes these things are best done off-the-boards, y'know? My email is askiah@yahoo.com. [/cape off] -- Avuncular Askia.

ITEM: If any posters reading this so far has spotted any factual inconsistency in the PROLOGUES so far, feel free to explain why this mistake isn't really a mistake and prepare to earn a heaping helping of our nifty new 'networthy KNOW-PRIZE! A nicknack normally needed by neo-classical noblemen of necessary knowledge, it now be nicked by your nuanced know-how! Hop to it! First come, first nerve! You can start by explaining how Spider-Woman is constantly addressed as Spider-Girl!

ITEM: I'm working hard on my Spider-Man and Superman chapters, "The Last Temptation of Spider-Man" and "Superman versus The Mole Man," to finish and post them this weekend. There' s some minor re-writing that needs to be done because I had not planned to post them so soon after the original PROLOGUES.

ITEM: Finally, I'm toying with the idea of a third story, a flashback set entirely in the distant past of the Marvel Universe, concerning the Greek god-metal adamantine and its link to contemporary adamantium, to strengthen the idea that Superman can be injured by it.

[CandidGamera]

ITEM: "First come, First nerve?"

I had time to kill at work today and wrote outlines for both of mine. So they're coming. Just don't rush me. I'm an artiste.

A certain ever-lovin' blue-eyed Thing will also cameo in my Superman story, and the primary Imperial Guardsmen featured will be Gladiator, Smasher, Warstar (B'nee and C'cil) and Starbolt.

The Spidey story is back on, and pretty much features only Booster, Beetle, and Spidey, except for a brief mention of the alter-ego of Irwin Schwab, and a one-line cameo by Guy Gardner.

[Askia]

ITEM: "First come, First nerve?" Yeah... uh... that sounded cool until I re-read it just now.I had time to kill at work today and wrote outlines for both of mine. So they're coming. Just don't rush me. I'm an artiste. :: Happy dance :: A certain ever-lovin' blue-eyed Thing will also cameo in my Superman story, and the primary Imperial Guardsmen featured will be Gladiator, Smasher, Warstar (B'nee and C'cil) and Starbolt. Cool. The Spidey story is back on, HOT DAMN! and pretty much features only Booster, Beetle, and Spidey, except for a brief mention of the alter-ego of Irwin Schwab, and a one-line cameo by Guy Gardner. I just through re-reading the last two Super-Buddies mini-series, and I am very happy to hear this!

Now if only I could locate the hole in the Earth that seems to have swallowed up Tengu, Kythereia and Stuffy.

[Stuffy]

Sorry guys. I had a technical manual to write up the dregs of which still occupy my mind and compromises my creative writing style. Fear not, a cure is at hand involving consuption of special liquids and the burning of certain herbs. I exect to finish tommorrow.

[Askia]

Slight change of plans, Inmates. I was toying around with the third story so much I went and damn near wrote the durn thing! This is background information not germaine to the Superman and Spider-Man plot except to explain why Superman is vulnerable to adamantium. I'll post that here in this thread instead of the SWAP! thread (unless popular demand says otherwise! I'm a sucker for audience opinion!) and instead of the other two chapters. Probrably tomorrow.

Toodles!

-- Assessing And Adjusting Askia

[CandidGamera]

Update.

My Spidey half is almost done. I need to finish it up tonight and proof it.

Turned out more of a Beetle and Booster story than a Spiderman story.

Very dialogue driven - I may need to go and adjust the action sequence in Chapter Three to be a little tighter.

[Stuffy]

Still working too, I hope to submit before the weekend.

[CandidGamera]

Finished Story #1. Going to have to proof it tonight though - didn't have time last night.

[CandidGamera]

Posted. Enjoy - you've finally corrupted me into joining the wide world of Fan Fiction.

[foolsguinea]

He’d planned to fly back home and investigate what happened to him –- only home wasn’t there anymore. Metropolis didn’t exist. Neither did Gotham, Gateway City, Coast City, Star City, Fawcett City or Smallville.Hey, of course Coast City doesn't exist! Dan Jurgens blew it up!

I kid, I kid....

[foolsguinea]

um, askia...

OK, you know that Superman could fly out a window & back into the parking garage with less exertion of force than it would take to compromise the integrity of the Bugle's building's structure by drilling through the floor, right? Right.

So, do you see Big Blue as a nitwit? Frank Miller fan, maybe? I know, I know, it gives you that great JJJ line, but still. Marvel favoritism abounds here.

Then again, I'm of the late-'80's DC-with-a-grown-up-attitude school.
________________

as for you, Mr. Explicit TurtleMeat:
Beetle thought for a moment. "Well, times were simpler then - things are more serious out there these days. But we Super-Buddies don't let it get us down. And those Justice League guys have lighter sides. If you want to get J'onn to smile, just bring him sandwich cookies. And to get a grin out of the Batman, ask him about knocking out Gardner in one punch."I imagine Ted would just say Oreos. But further, I take exception to calling the Giffen Justice League "simpler times." The current retro-inspired take is a lot more simplistic, really.

________________

Funny stuff, though.

[CandidGamera]

as for you, Mr. Explicit TurtleMeat:
I imagine Ted would just say Oreos. But further, I take exception to calling the Giffen Justice League "simpler times." The current retro-inspired take is a lot more simplistic, really.

________________

Funny stuff, though.

Well, danke for the feedback. As for the two issues - the 'sandwich cookie' ambiguity is a nod to the fact that A.) they had to stop calling them Oreos at one point and substitute a generic name and B.) I couldn't remember the generic name.

As for the "simpler times" comment - Just sort of the character's take on the "darkening" DCU.

[Scott Plaid]

As for the "simpler times" comment - Just sort of the character's take on the "darkening" DCU.I seem to recall heroes replying to the "simpler times" meme in the Identity Crisis storyline. As I recall, they state that a few decades ago, things weren't simpler, just diffrent.

Oh, and as I recall, the cokies the Martian Manhunter is addicted to is refered to, post-lawsuits fears, as "Chocos"

[CandidGamera]

Anybody? Bueller?

[Harborwolf]

So what happened here? Everybody just get bored and wander off or something?