Dumb Actors

My friend was telling me at one point that he had read a study, actually a newspaper report about a study, that said that how good an actor you are is inversely proportional to how intelligent you are.
The theory, or his kinda vague retelling of it, went like this: The ability to act stems from your ability to shunt your real personality aside and put a different one in it's place, and only dumb people can do this. Smart people on the other hand, have trouble with it for the opposite reason.
Now you can pencil me into the "Doesn't buy it" column on this one, but, just in case I'm wrong, let me just say now that I never got a lead role in any pageant in my whole elementary school career.

Didn't Brooke Shields go to Princeton? Have you ever seen an episode of "Suddenly Susan"?

On the other hand, though, you have Dustin Hoffman and the like.

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"We're gonna have lawyers here. It'll be a fun time."
--R.R.S.

Ronald Reagan was clearly a counterexample. Lorne Greene also was rumored to be "thick as a whale omelet," but certainly was not an exceptionally gifted actor. Actually, I can't think of any examples that support this claim, besides Brooke Shields of course. I'll grant you that one.

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That's the way that it is on this bitch of an earth."
-- Pozzo, Waiting For Godot

One can graduate from Princeton and still be stupid. I work with many people who have degrees from "prestigious" universities, yet could not think their way out of a paper bag.

My opinion only, but I feel the study you read may have used "self-consciousness" as a guide for "intelligence."

Think Keanu Reeves can act?

Then again this would explain the popularity among actors of things like magnetic copper healing bracelets and Scientology.

I believe James Woods attended MIT and got a 1600 on his SATs (or the equivalent of his day). I don't know if he graduated from there.
I will let others here debate the value of an education from MIT.

This is a kinda hard one. How can we know if an actor is intelligent? Interviews??
Let's not confuse intelligence with education. (heh heh, new toy.
Peace,
mangeorge

As a former actor and sometime stage director, I can tell you that your discussion is going to be meaningless as long as your examples continue to discuss spokesmodels instead of actors. Intelligence is an outstanding asset to an actor, as it is to anyone in any other profession. The notion that an actor at work must abandon his or her own personality in order to adopt another is a case of overmystifying the work of the actor. One draws upon one's own experiences, imagination, and yes, one's own personality to create an illusion. In casting, if I had two people who auditioned equally well and had no other way of deciding between them, I'd always give the part to the one I thought was more intelligent.

Well some examples of well (prestigous) educated people who are bad actors: Brooke, Mira Sorvino, Cindy Crawford, Lisa Kudrow, and a couple of others who I can't think of.

A better litmus is the right brained/left brained theory. I would accept the idea that analytically inteligent people make bad actors, your stereotypically "intelligent" engineers, scientists, and the like. Then people who graduate from Harvard, Northwestern, Stanford etc in fields like english, poetry, acting, etc. may be good actor, but considered intelligent. It all boils down to what is intelligence? I say its the ablity to solve problems, and therefore yes intelligent people can't act. I'm sure lots of people would consider Mozart, Picasso, and Shakespeare intelligent. I don't (based on what they are famous for), but they are geniouses in a sense. So I guess you need to clarify what you and this article consider intelligence.



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The facts expressed here belong to everybody, the opinions to me. The distinction is
yours to draw...

Omniscient; BAG

It's really not intelligence but emotional response. A good actor does not convey his/her true emotion. A great actor has the ability to mirror other emotions.

Emotional strength is the key. I suppose this implies a certain degree of insensitivity.

Try playing poker. The mathematician who is solid on all probabilities will be beaten by the ignorant actor.



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Probably a game of celebrity Jeopardy could shed some light onto this subject. I haven't seen one in so long I don't remember who was even playing.

When will there be a Celebrity "Win Ben Stein's Money?" That "Daily Show" thing was no help, those guys aren't exactly actors.

Well some examples of well (prestigous) educated people who are bad actors: Brooke, Mira Sorvino, Cindy Crawford, Lisa Kudrow, and a couple of others who I can't think of.
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I personally think that Lisa Kudrow (and along the same lines Cristina Applegate (back in the days of MWC)) are both great actors and from what I hear pretty smart too. I don't know why you think Lisa Kudrow is a bad actor, unless thats her real personality (which it's not) you gotta be pretty good to be stupid that convincinly

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Formerly knowen as Nec3f on the AOL SDMB

Probably a game of celebrity Jeopardy could shed some light onto this subject. I haven't seen one in so long I don't remember who was even playing.
I was going to mention that.
They should call it Dumb Jeopardy instead of Celebrity. Even with all the questions made easier they can’t get them right.

JACK

I consider Jodi Foster to be not only an incredibly gifted actress and director, but highly intelligent and well-educated to boot.
There are others, some who even have breasts.

Once again, the "I heard it from X who read it somewhere" preface is a sure warning sign of drivel to come.

They should call it Dumb Jeopardy instead of Celebrity. Even with all the questions made easier they can’t get them right.

This is probably really stupid of me, but I love SNL's parodies of Celebrity Jeopardy, particularly when they have Sean Connery misreading the catagories.

"I'll have 'Swords,' Alex."
"That's 'S words,' Sean."

"I'll take 'The rapists,' Alex."
"That's 'therapists,' Sean."

Those slay me :)

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"I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it," Jack Handy

I believe that Geena Davis is a member of Mensa, if that helps.
Nope, it doesn't. I'm a member too, and from the people I've met, the group's membership requirements don't mean as much as you may think.
Also, while Sorvino, Lisa Kudrow, and Brooke Shields belong to the acting profession, they are not actors. They are actresses.
In English, the "male" form of a word is used as the default. Any person who acts is an actor. (Hey, if a woman graduates from medical school, should we call her a "doctress"?)

If you are talking about people in general, then yes, you can use the term "actor" to describe women like Mira Sorvino, but I believe that when you are describing an individual performer, then such a person is either an actor or an actress.

I will admit that it is an outdated mode of language, but it still does not seem right to me to call a female thespian an actor. The reason we don't refer to doctors and doctresses is because until very recently, the medical profession was male-dominated. When they finally did allow women in, it was old fashioned to call female doctors "doctresses." However, we have had female thespians around since the Restoration, and we are stuck with the word "actress." Although we do have actors playing female roles and actresses playing male roles, the sex of the individual thespian is usually critical in determining what roles they play. After all, acting is the only profession I know that divides the awards they give based on the sex of the performer. We don't see Tonys given to the Best Male Costume Designer or Oscars given to the Best Female Cinematogropher or Emmys to the Best Female telewriter. Since it doesn't look like the term "actress" isn't going away, we ought to use it, and use it properly.

Actors aren't my big thing, I forget most names. But Felix (Odd Couple) didn't seem too bright in real life, and there's this guy that shows up with his banjo (Not Steve Martin!)on shows..can't think of his name.After watching years of afternoon shows (my mom had the shows on) I never was impressed with many actors/actresses.Dustin Hoffman was OK, he would only talk about what he knew.

Can you find that article Surely? We would need to read it to see what it says....

Acting requires a lot of brain to memorize lines. An average script is around 114 pages, that is a lot of memorization. Course, they also have cue cards.

Isn't it more important that an actor/ess be able to sympathize? In order to do that they must have similar life experiences to what they are portraying. Like Marilee Matlin, who didn't have to act cause she often plays who she is in real life.

I believe that Geena Davis is a member of Mensa, if that helps. Also, why do you think that Mira Sorvino is a bad actress. She did a great job in Mighty Aphrodite, for which she won an Oscar.

Also, while Sorvino, Lisa Kudrow, and Brooke Shields belong to the acting profession, they are not actors. They are actresses.

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"I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way..."
--Jessica Rabbit,Who Framed Roger Rabbit

My own doubts about this study (Which, yup, the dude never produced, though I'll try to track it down. It can't be that hard, he only gets one newspaper) have been pretty much outlined above. It kinda goes on the assumption that "Intelligence" is like height and can be easily measured. Hell, stregnth is more easily measured than intelligence, and I'm pretty sure no one has been able to agree on a yardstick for that.

Also, while Sorvino, Lisa Kudrow, and Brooke Shields belong to the acting profession, they are not actors. They are actresses.


Actually, many women in the profession, no matter how they stand on issues of feminism, etc., prefer the word actor, simply because actress carries a certain "nudge-hudge, wink-wink" burden from the days (not all that long ago) when newspapers often used the phrase "woman described as an 'actress'" as a euphemism for prostitute.

As to the main point, I know a good many professional and amateur actors. All of them are intelligent; though not all of them are well educated.

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John W. Kennedy
"Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays."
-- Charles Williams

I'm not sure you can conclude no correlation yet. I still haven't seen any convincing examples of good actors who are stupid.

From the examples given one might conclude that there is NO correlation -either positive or negative - between acting and intelligence. I find this surprising.

We could look at a correlation coefficient between IQ and...what? The problem is that it's even harder to realistically measure acting ability than intelligence (though in both cases we know it when we see it).

I would point out, however, that Shakespeare was obviously HIGHLY intelligent, at least with verbal skills. Based on his writing, he had the highest vocabulary ever recorded IIRC (James Joyce was second, I believe). He was also accounted a very skilled actor.

But then, as Peter O'Toole said in "My Favorite Year":

"I'm not an actor! I'm a movie star!"

Well, now that I think of it, there is a fairly well attested story to the effect that one of the great English actresses of the 18th century was fairly dim. She was famous for her performance in the Scottish play, but didn't even know how the story ended, because she always went home after the sleepwalking scene.

I would venture to say that many actors may be specifically less apt to critical thinking than could be wished. They seem more prone than other people of similar intelligence to fall for investment scams, homeopathy, Scientology, etc.

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John W. Kennedy
"Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays."
-- Charles Williams

I've always beleived that if an actor/ress made me beleive their character then they did their job properly. When my mind would wander and start wondering who else would be better that that particular role, then the 1st actor failed.

My two bits

Dumb actor: George Segal
Movies: Filmography: Houdini (1998)
The November Conspiracy (1997)
The Cable Guy (1996)
The Mirror Has Two Faces (1996)
It's My Party (1996)
Flirting With Disaster (1996)
The Babysitter (1995)
Picture Windows (1995)
Army of One (1994)
Direct Hit (1994)
Deep Down (1994)
Seasons of the Heart (1994)
Following Her Heart (1994)
Taking the Heat (1993)
Joshua Tree (1993)
Me Myself and I (1992)
For the Boys (1991)
All's Fair (1989)
Look Who's Talking (1989)
The Endless Game (1989)
Killing 'Em Softly (1985)
Not My Kid (1985)
Stick (1985)
The Cold Room (1984)
The Zany Adventures of Robin Hood (1984)
The Deadly Game (1982)
Carbon Copy (1981)
The Last Married Couple in America (1980)
Lost and Found (1979)
Who Is Killing the Great Chefs of Europe? (1978)
Fun With Dick and Jane (1977)
Rollercoaster (1977)
The Duchess and The Dirtwater Fox (1976)
The Black Bird (1975)
Russian Roulette (1975)
The Terminal Man (1974)
California Split (1974)
Blume in Love (1973)
A Touch of Class (1973)
The Hot Rock (1972)
Born to Win (1971)
The Owl and The Pussycat (1970)
Where's Poppa (1970)
Loving (1970)
The Bridge at Remagen (1969)
The Southern Star (1969)
The Girl Who Couldn't Say No (1969)
Bye Bye Braverman (1968)
No Way to Treat a Lady (1968)
The St. Valentine's Day Massacre (1967)
The Lost Command (1966)
The Quiller Memorandum (1966)
Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? (1966)
King Rat (1965)
Ship of Fools (1965)
Invitation to a Gunfighter (1964)
The Young Doctors (1961)

Comments?

Now Now....bad choices in acting jobs and smartness do not make them dumber than bricks
Look at filmmaker Russ Meyer. Supposedly a boy genius but he makes such classics as "Faster Pussycat KILL! KILL!" with Tura Santana(drool) which is not exactly a high drama. Does the experience or preference of jobs make you smarter or dumber?
James Woods is considered a genius and yes its true he scored perfect on his SAT (From what I heard too was that his way of studying involved a serious amount of drinking the night before)

Lorne Greene Dumb? Well maybe, he did stay in the series Battlestar Galactica 1980 but I prefer to think that Ben Cartwright had enough on the ball in the series to make up for him in real life. Besides, would you say Ben was dumb with Hoss and Lil Joe around?

Regarding George Segal: He did work pretty well as a prop for Jane Fonda in "Fun with Dick and Jane."

I find myself having trouble distinguishing between the two characteristics we're discussing. For instance, I immediately thought of a stupid actor: Keanu Reeves. But then I realized he may be Einstein for all I really know; I think of him as dumb because he's such a bad actor. Do any of us really know enough about actors, independent of their work, to judge their intelligence?

I can personally claim that my mother once had Bill Bixby's mother as a coworker in a department store, and if that doesn't make me an expert I don't know what would!

1. Female actors are no longer called actresses in the biz (yes, there are always the few exceptions.)

2. Tony Randall is very intelligent. His obnoxious quotient is also high, but that doesn't make him a dope.

3. Kathleen Turner is an excellent actor and severely intelligent.

4. Classically trained actors, especially Shakespearean one, are usually quite intelligent, unless y'all think Sirs Geiguld and Olivier are mopes.

5. Sure, you can be a dope and a good actor. I'll buy that. You would never have know by watching "Back to the Future" that Crispin Glover (am I getting the name right?) was a freakin' looney.

6. Sure, you can be intelligent and be a horrible actor. Ever see Dick Cavitt act?

Peace,

I hate it when I decide to try and contribute to a thread that's been running for awhile; you've gotta consider a lot of previous reponses while you cough up your own jewel.

Actors inhabit a lot of the world that has little to do with stage or screen. I inhabit a world where small businesses interact with large businesses and my world is defined by the actors. Intelligence, or its measure, has been much debated - I think some dollop of such is required to be an effective actor. Actors must be able to establish an empathetic link with their audience and subtley ferret out and respond to the clues they are given (or in the sense of film, imagine they are given). This requires intelligence, but not necessarily formal education. A good carny weight-and-birthday guesser or "gypsy" fortune teller must bring some of the same intelligence on line that a corporate fund raiser or drilling promoter does to cold read the prospect. That's selling, which is part of acting. Or is it the other way around (the boards are a new medium for me - all of the above is transmitted w/o vocal inflection, hand movement or facial expressions)?

Rarely are the technical guys good; but when they are they're usually very good. Mostly the money guys (& that's money raising guys) are the best. And they possess both that degree of intelligence that allows them the ability to cold read and adopt whatever personality is required to get things moving along. Most of the big projects that get moving are due to the primary efforts of an intelligent individual in the money-raising community who, despite a career long exposure to it, does not have a grasp of the technology, but can talk about it. Reminds me of the cliche about MBA's - they've pursued a curriculum that taught them to speak with definitive authority on subjects about which they know nothing (danger lurks when one of these people, as happens, decides they can save some money by doing the technical work themselves).

So on to acting and intelligence...
Well, obviously to be effective in any of the aforementioned venues (stage, screen, business promotion, fortune-telling) one must possess a command of some intelligence, but not necessarily that intelligence required to do higher math or figure out why such-and-such religious cult thinks you're a good "bag". Successful actors learn a lesson along the way and that is "play to your range"; I often heard Tom Cruise accussed of playing the same character in every film he does - well, if it works, do it. I played in a lot of rock bands for ~25 years and the best couple were the ones where the personalities were such that we could say, "Man, I love Emerson, Lake & Palmer, but I DO NOT play like Carl Palmer, and, although I think I would like to, I in fact CANNOT, so let's give'm the absolute best GIMME SHELTER they ever heard and enjoy what we're doing!"

Generalizations about actors, then, are about as reasonably applicable as generalizations about any other group of people. Intelligence is difficult to quantify, but I think a lot of us recognize that it falls somewhere in between number-crunching and people-crunching.

The bottom line is that the intelligence level of actors is all over the scale. Until someone comes up with a way of defining both "intelligence" and "acting talent" in a way that is scientifically quantifiable, then determining a correlation between intelligence (or lack thereof) and acting talent is useless.

Some actors may seem dim, because their ability to articulate their work falls far short of the quality of the work itself. This is true to some degree of Harvey Keitel (ever see his brief interview in FULL TILT BOOGIE?) and even Robert DeNiro (although in his case he sounds perhaps more reluctant than clueless).

As far as Keanu Reeves being stupid, when he bowed out of SPEED 2 and chose to do DEVIL'S ADVOCATE instead, everyone thought he was making a terrible career choice. Then SPEED 2 came out and bombed, while DEVIL'S ADVOCATE was at least a moderate commercial and critical success, for which he recieved some of the best reviews of his career. Coulda been just lucky, I guess, or maybe he's not so dumb after all.

You should also keep in mind that, even though an actor's movie bombed, they still got paid a lot of money. I might question their artistic qualities, but they certainly made a wise financial decision.

Yes, even if a movie bombs, an actor still gets paid--his up-front money. However, many star salaries also include a percentage of the profits or grosses of the movie. A bomb means no big fat checks coming in from all the money at the box office.

Besides, if the movie bombs, then the actor might have trouble getting paid the next time. You can't keep demanding $10-million per pic if you last few films went belly up.