I've either hit the jackpot or found Hell, help me decide..

[lokij]

So, I don't post much here. None of you know me.. when I do post it's almost never about my personal life so this is quite a departure for me. Something wonderful and very very frightening has happened to my life recently and I'm unsure of what to do about it. Basically I have fallen deeply in love with one of my best friends whom I've known for years.. I recently gathered up my courage and expressed my feelings and to my joy and amazement she's felt the same way. It turns out we were both interested in each other almost from the day we met, some 5 years ago. The catch is that I'm married with one kid and another on the way and I love my wife very very much. The catch on that catch is that she is bisexual and is very willing to let me pursue my relationship with my friend, no strings attached. My wife likes my friend very much as well... though there is no romantic interest there at the present. What is torturing me is that the logical part of my mind says this is a disaster waiting to happen, that relationships are so hard to maintain between two people that throwing a third into the mix is lunacy. My friend for her part is miserable because she in no way wants to contribute to my marriage failing.. she loves me, she knows I'm happy in my marriage.. she loves my kids and the idea of her being involved in that changing is unacceptable to her. My wife is much more positive a person, she thinks it could work.. and she honestly doesn't have a jealous bone in her body.. she says she would never leave me and only wants to see me happy. I'm being a dick because while I want to have it all and it would be hypocritical of me to go forward because I could not stand the idea of my wife having another physical relationship with somebody else. I'm just not as good a person as her I suppose. So what to do? It's just killing me.... so unfair, I don't like very many people at all and I have fallen in love now exactly twice and I could have both but at a terrible risk. Like I say, I'm either cursed or the luckiest man alive. *sigh*

[Neurotik]

I vote for "It's a disaster waiting to happen."

[hlanelee]

I agree with Nuerotik. It is likely to become FUBAR before you realize it. the cake and eat it, too, kind of thing.

[silenus]

Nothing that sweet comes without a heavy price.

Just walk away.

[Knowed Out]

The people who say they're not jealous are lying.

They may be agreeable now, but it's just lip service. They'll explode later, and there will be years of drama, lawyers fees, and child custody hearings to pay for a couple of nights of nookie.

Just say no.

[Dag Otto]

The catch on that catch is that [my wife] is bisexual and is very willing to let me pursue my relationship with my friend, no strings attached.


Wait a minute. How does that work?

[lokij]

Wait a minute. How does that work?

It means she's willing to let me see my friend, have a physical relationship and go from there... we even discussed the unlikely event of cohabitation. She said she would not expect me to accept her doing something similar. Does it sound crazy? Yes... but I will be the first to say my wife is in no way a typical person, she has a very unique way of thinking about things and she's never lied to me in the past. I just don't know whether she understands exactly what she's saying... in alot of ways it would be easier if she were more typical, it would just be out of the question then. :/

[scout1222]

I know everyone's going to hop on the bisexual/open marriage aspect of this, but I'm not sure that's the most relevant part.

My concern is the fact that you fell in love with someone while married to your wife. And that you finally "just admitted" it. If I were your wife, I think I might have an issue with that, because you hadn't been upfront about your feelings for someone else.

However, from what you're saying to us, she may not have those feelings. Or she may have them, but is not expressing them. Who knows.

But there are so many ways that it COULD end badly, that I will be surprised if it DOESN'T end badly. I guess I'm not an optimist. :D

[FinnAgain]

You have kids... is divorce really worth the risk for an affair?

[lokij]

I know everyone's going to hop on the bisexual/open marriage aspect of this, but I'm not sure that's the most relevant part.

My concern is the fact that you fell in love with someone while married to your wife. And that you finally "just admitted" it. If I were your wife, I think I might have an issue with that, because you hadn't been upfront about your feelings for someone else.

However, from what you're saying to us, she may not have those feelings. Or she may have them, but is not expressing them. Who knows.

But there are so many ways that it COULD end badly, that I will be surprised if it DOESN'T end badly. I guess I'm not an optimist. :D


I finally admitted it to my friend, my wife has known about my feelings for some time now. I can't keep anything from her. ;> And I'm no optimist either..

[lokij]

You have kids... is divorce really worth the risk for an affair?

Absolutely not, which is why I'm so torn. On the other hand this wouldn't be a traditional 'affair' where I'd be hiding something from my wife. I don't know what it would be to be honest. None of us are normal people and that's part of the problem. ;>

[jayjay]

The people who say they're not jealous are lying.

They may be agreeable now, but it's just lip service. They'll explode later, and there will be years of drama, lawyers fees, and child custody hearings to pay for a couple of nights of nookie.

Just say no.

False. supervenusfreak and I have an open relationship. Have since the beginning. And neither one of us feels the slightest tinge of jealousy when the other is doing the deed with someone else.

Now, maybe MOST people who claim no jealousy are lying. But not all of them, by a long shot.

On the other hand, the big warning signs to me are the words

I could not stand the idea of my wife having another physical relationship with somebody else

because that right there is the dealbreaker in pretty much any open or polyamorous relationship. Good for the gander, good for the goose, and if it isn't then nobody's playing outside the playground.

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

Train wreck, explosion, MASSIVE FIREBALL!!!!

Many Easter Bunnys killed.

Don't go there/ Walk away.

[lokij]

False. supervenusfreak and I have an open relationship. Have since the beginning. And neither one of us feels the slightest tinge of jealousy when the other is doing the deed with someone else.

Now, maybe MOST people who claim no jealousy are lying. But not all of them, by a long shot.

On the other hand, the big warning signs to me are the words



because that right there is the dealbreaker in pretty much any open or polyamorous relationship. Good for the gander, good for the goose, and if it isn't then nobody's playing outside the playground.

Yeah and I feel rotten about that, but it's how I feel and I can't really help it much at the moment. Things might change, people's attitudes change.. but for now it would just be very hard for me to accept. That being said, I would not be opposed to a relationship between my wife and my friend... but that isn't up to me. I don't know why that would be a different situation but I love them both and the idea doesn't seem hurtful to me.. but that's another ball of wax.. another layer of complexity. From my very recent research into polyamory (which before now I have been pretty ignorant of) what I kind of seem to be aiming for is a closed triad. That would be the best possible outcome... the holy grail so to speak for me. Sadly, I just don't know if it is possible and if not what to do...

[Shayna]

Sure, there are couples who make polyamory work, but generally those are people who enter their marriages with those expectations. To throw something like this into an already established marriage would be nothing but disaster.

And quit thinking about yourself and start doing what a parent is supposed to do and put your children first! They absolutely deserve a devoted father who is committed to his family first and foremost.

[Clothahump]

Train wreck, explosion, MASSIVE FIREBALL!!!!

Many Easter Bunnys killed.

Don't go there/ Walk away.


What he said. In spades.

[Man With a Cat]

Train wreck, explosion, MASSIVE FIREBALL!!!!

Many Easter Bunnys killed.

Don't go there/ Walk away.

RUN away.

[Oregon sunshine]

Ask someone who's been through it. My friend, a bi female, had a "good" thing going with one of her best friends and a non-jealous husband. The whole situation wound up with the loss of said best friend and some drunken violence. As far as I could see, that situation at least (which at first appeared to be ideal) became unmanageable in a hurry. Learning from others' mistakes is more than likely a good idea.

[lokij]

Sure, there are couples who make polyamory work, but generally those are people who enter their marriages with those expectations. To throw something like this into an already established marriage would be nothing but disaster.

And quit thinking about yourself and start doing what a parent is supposed to do and put your children first! They absolutely deserve a devoted father who is committed to his family first and foremost.

I like to think I am a devoted father, certainly their best interests are the primary concern here. This has also been discussed with my wife and my friend... they agree also. We're not fools... we haven't Done anything yet.. just acknowledged what is there. I have not so much as held my friend's hand yet... but just as I know that going ahead with a relationship is dangerous, so is keeping everything in. I don't want to be unhappy in my marriage.. I don't want my wife to wonder if she's second best and I only stayed with her because of our children because it would be patently untrue. I don't want this to fester. My children deserve to have their parents in a loving and honest relationship. I want my friend to be in my kid's lives, my daughter loves her. Even if we decide to not go forward with anything in no way am I going to lose my friend... I just don't have enough people I care about in my life that I can throw that away. She's going to be in my life somehow, even if it's just a continuing friendship. We're just trying to figure out how to deal with the messiness. I should also make an important note that currently my friend lives out of state so there is also that kind of pause right now to figure things out rationally.

[Shodan]

Even if we decide to not go forward with anything in no way am I going to lose my friend... Yes you are.

Your choices are Lose your friend, or Lose your wife, children, and your friend.

And, IMO, saying "I can't help how I feel" is picking B above.

Regards,
Shodan

[elbows]

Could you see yourself explaining this to your children, if not now as they are still too young, at some future date?

Because rest assured, no matter how it plays out, you are going to have to answer to them about this one day. Do you think you're able to navigate those waters?

It seems to me you will either be modeling an unserving relationship prototype, or leading a secret life, neither of which seem fair to the children involved. Have you even considered this?

That's my two cents anyway.

[sj2]

Absolutely not, which is why I'm so torn. On the other hand this wouldn't be a traditional 'affair' where I'd be hiding something from my wife. I don't know what it would be to be honest. None of us are normal people and that's part of the problem. ;>

This is just idiotic.

Um, just imagine explaining this to your children.

You are making me very angry.

[Shayna]

I like to think I am a devoted father, certainly their best interests are the primary concern here. Then you do not bring a third party as a secondary sexual partner into a committed marriage. It will only fuck them up in the long run. It serves them no benefit whatsoever. ...but just as I know that going ahead with a relationship is dangerous, so is keeping everything in. Baloney. That's what grownups do -- make sacrifices for their families. It's not "dangerous" to do so. It's not being "kept in" anymore, so now it's time to stop thinking with your dick and start thinking of your children. Much as you protest that you are, if you are even considering this further, you are not. I don't want to be unhappy in my marriage.. I don't want my wife to wonder if she's second best and I only stayed with her because of our children because it would be patently untrue. Well if it's untrue then all you have to do is live your life accordingly. Screwing some other woman on the side does absolutely nothing to honor the real love you have for your wife -- it only lessens it. I don't want this to fester. Then don't. We all have to learn how to get over things when we become grownups. Get over it. I want my friend to be in my kid's lives, my daughter loves her. Even if we decide to not go forward with anything in no way am I going to lose my friend... I just don't have enough people I care about in my life that I can throw that away. She's going to be in my life somehow, even if it's just a continuing friendship. Nobody's saying you have to extricate her from your life. We're just trying to figure out how to deal with the messiness. It's not messy, except that you're making it so. You have the power to clean up this mess. Do the grownup thing. I should also make an important note that currently my friend lives out of state so there is also that kind of pause right now to figure things out rationally. Thank Og for small favors.

[Scumpup]

This could be the beginning of a beautiful and fullfilling relationship for you; or, it could be the beginning of a relationship that results in you having a pot of boiling grits thrown on you while you sleep.

I think the second possibility is the more probable.

[lokij]

Well... I'd like to thank everyone for their input. It seems pretty unanimous. It was just something I wanted to share more than anything.. I know the realities of the situation, I guess I should have known better to post a question when I know the answer.

[Man With a Cat]

It sounds to me an awful lot like the OP wants to do this, intends to do this and wants to get everyone's thumbs up. Or if I were more cynical, I'd say he wants to brag somewhat, and thinking that this is some kinda cool thing, show us all how cool he'd be to pull this off.

Anytime, anyone brings up some valid point about protecting the kids, or the damage there is to do to everyone here, he pops out with what he must feel is a justification, or argument for going ahead with this.

Jeebus man, if you're going to jump into something so obviously tricky to pull off and fraught with danger signs, then just go do it and don't pretend to be asking our opinions.

On the other hand, to be even more cynical, if this is all BS and you just want to float a fantasy by us, then the hell with you for wasting people's time and getting them all worked up by having them "argue" this with you.

[Nic2004]

Sit back and picture for a moment:
A year has passed and-
Your wife and children are no longer with you. They are living in another State and you have limited contact.
It has not turned out as you have imagined and your friend, hurt in the conflict, is gone also.
Your sitting and thinking of the times when you had a happy home and a family around you.

Many people here whom I have found to be sensible and open-minded have said don't do it.

I agree

[sj2]

mr bus guy sure has a knack for hitting the nail right smack on the head...

[lokij]

It sounds to me an awful lot like the OP wants to do this, intends to do this and wants to get everyone's thumbs up. Or if I were more cynical, I'd say he wants to brag somewhat, and thinking that this is some kinda cool thing, show us all how cool he'd be to pull this off.

Anytime, anyone brings up some valid point about protecting the kids, or the damage there is to do to everyone here, he pops out with what he must feel is a justification, or argument for going ahead with this.

Jeebus man, if you're going to jump into something so obviously tricky to pull off and fraught with danger signs, then just go do it and don't pretend to be asking our opinions.

On the other hand, to be even more cynical, if this is all BS and you just want to float a fantasy by us, then the hell with you for wasting people's time and getting them all worked up by having them "argue" this with you.

Ok.. I've tried to take my medicine with some humility because I was after all the one who posted. It's only fair. I did want a dose of reality I suppose because sue me, I was a bit taken with the idea that it could happen. I wanted to make sure I gave at least enough pertinent details so that I could get semi informed advice, I did not mean to justify anything. As for bragging, thinking with my dick ect.. holy friggin christ on a pogo stick... I said I hadn't done anything with my friend. I am not by nature a sexually ambitious person. Counting my wife I've had two partners... i've always been very cautious about this sort of thing. I'm not jumping into anything. I just wanted to use this message board to share something that is totally out of the ordinary for me. I had thought I might get some nuanced answers or personal antectdotes about similar situations. I fully realise how fucked up this is and how stupid it is of me to have gotten to this place. As I've said, if I had a more typical relationship with my wife I probably would have dealt with my feelings alone and kept up the status quo. I felt at the time that it was better to share with the involved parties, and quite frankly since I know them and you people do not you'll just have to take my word that it was a well considered decision. This has been 5 years in the making afterall.. hardly rash. I'm not Moving anywhere.. my life is here and my place is with my children and wife. That's not even a consideration. I do appreciate the advice from everyone, I just didn't anticipate it being quite so harsh I suppose.

[NurseCarmen]

The catch on that catch is that she is bisexual and is very willing to let me pursue my relationship with my friend, no strings attached.I'm just not so certain that there is too much holding this marriage together in the first place. It sounds like your wife and yourself have fallen into a very deep and co-dependant friendship. A nice thing and all, but not a marriage. I suspect that maybe your wife is hoping that you can be let down gently and move on while still loving and supporting the kids. Sans kids, your wife would be saying right now "Go ahead lokij, go after her. I think we've just about run our course here, and I still want to be friends."

I think you're looking at a sensible and non-acromonious divorce followed by a long term friendship/parenthood with your wife. You'll probably even live within a couple blocks of each other.

That's if everything goes right.

[NurseCarmen]

That's if everything goes right.If everything goes wrong, I'll defer to Mr. Bus Guy.

[ElvisL1ves]

Um, yeah. Pardon my naturally-suspicious nature, but your wife seems too accepting of the concept. Is it just possible that she has a GF herself, or wishes she did, and is thinking of making things fair between you by letting you have one too?

Yes, you do have to give your friend the "just friends" talk, but that may not be the end of your problems even so.

[Shayna]

lokij, you've been around here for 4 years and you didn't expect Straight Dopers to hit you right between the eyes with the cold, hard facts? If we mollycoddle you, you go away thinking you've got some wiggle room to justify a really bonehead thing to do to your wife, your children and the future of your family. Your wife is pregnant, for og's sake!

I appreciate that you know all the parties and made what you felt was the right decision to be up front and honest about verbalizing your feelings. Fine. Now that it's out, you can allow yourself to feel some sense of relief that you aren't keeping secrets. Beyond that, the advice here has simply been, Don't Do Anything ELSE. It's really that simple.

Best of luck to you. I fear you're going to need it.

[Knowed Out]

False. supervenusfreak and I have an open relationship. Have since the beginning. And neither one of us feels the slightest tinge of jealousy when the other is doing the deed with someone else.

I've heard that plenty of times before.

Clock is ticking, Dubba J.

[lokij]

lokij, you've been around here for 4 years and you didn't expect Straight Dopers to hit you right between the eyes with the cold, hard facts? If we mollycoddle you, you go away thinking you've got some wiggle room to justify a really bonehead thing to do to your wife, your children and the future of your family. Your wife is pregnant, for og's sake!

I appreciate that you know all the parties and made what you felt was the right decision to be up front and honest about verbalizing your feelings. Fine. Now that it's out, you can allow yourself to feel some sense of relief that you aren't keeping secrets. Beyond that, the advice here has simply been, Don't Do Anything ELSE. It's really that simple.

Best of luck to you. I fear you're going to need it.

Well, I certainly expected straight answers not necessarily to have my motives questioned or to be insulted.. but eh... like I said I asked for it. ;>

[lokij]

I'm just not so certain that there is too much holding this marriage together in the first place. It sounds like your wife and yourself have fallen into a very deep and co-dependant friendship. A nice thing and all, but not a marriage. I suspect that maybe your wife is hoping that you can be let down gently and move on while still loving and supporting the kids. Sans kids, your wife would be saying right now "Go ahead lokij, go after her. I think we've just about run our course here, and I still want to be friends."

I think you're looking at a sensible and non-acromonious divorce followed by a long term friendship/parenthood with your wife. You'll probably even live within a couple blocks of each other.

That's if everything goes right.


I suppose it depends on what you define as marriage... and that's philosophy really. I honestly don't know, that's why I'm asking questions and feeling things out. If you Are right and she does feel that way, then I have to know that too sooner or later. I hope that's not the case, I don't Think it is but it's a valid possibility and more along the lines of the kind of feedback I had in mind when I started this thread. Thanks.

[John Carter of Mars]

The catch is that I'm married with one kid and another on the way and I love my wife very very much. The catch on that catch is that she is bisexual and is very willing to let me pursue my relationship with my friend, no strings attached. My wife likes my friend very much as well.(bolding mine)

Here's where you lose me: Why does your wife's sexual preference have anything to do with this? Has she in the past, or does she now, see women for sexual activities?
You haven't said she does. You said you couldn't stand the thought of her being with someone else, but does that "someone" mean male only?

If your wife already sees a woman for sexual purposes every now and then, that fact could change the whole perspective here. If she doesn't and hasn't, then does she want to?

As Nurse Carmen alluded to, you may be on the verge of big-time changes in your life, whether your friend is in the picture or or not.

Best of luck, whatever happens.

[jayjay]

I've heard that plenty of times before.

Clock is ticking, Dubba J.

Tell ya what. When you actually ARE either myself or supervenusfreak, you get to speak for our relationship. At present, however, you don't know either one of us or how we interact. Besides that, all generalizations are false. (Yes, I know...that was a generalization. It's the exception.)

[lokij]

(bolding mine)

Here's where you lose me: Why does your wife's sexual preference have anything to do with this? Has she in the past, or does she now, see women for sexual activities?
You haven't said she does. You said you couldn't stand the thought of her being with someone else, but does that "someone" mean male only?

If your wife already sees a woman for sexual purposes every now and then, that fact could change the whole perspective here. If she doesn't and hasn't, then does she want to?

As Nurse Carmen alluded to, you may be on the verge of big-time changes in your life, whether your friend is in the picture or or not.

Best of luck, whatever happens.

You know, it's not really relevant.. I suppose I just mentioned it to give some background. It's part of who she is, another part of why she's not exactly a typical spouse. She has in the past, before we became involved with each other, seen women for sexual activities. Since we have been married she has struggled with this but had come to terms with it some time ago. Now, another facet of our relationship is the fact that she has expressed some guilt because when she came into our marriage she was far more experienced than I.. she sort of felt she unfairly snatched me up before I had a chance to sow my oats so to speak. I'm not the oat sowing type however and it's extremely likely had she not met me my experiences would not have been significantly different anyway, but she feels that way. She just doesn't have the same attitudes about sex that I do, for her sex is just a fun activity.. love has very little if anything to do with it. I find her hard to understand and she finds me hard to get.. that's part of what's made our relationship interesting I suppose. ;>

[Anaamika]

lokij, I know there are a few other polyamorous Dopers around. Why they haven't chosen to speak up, I'm not sure. Maybe they're shy, or maybe they're not sure what the thread is about.

I can't speak for you or your situation. You asked for advice, but you're asking in a culture/time/country when monogamy is the norm.

My advice? Repost this in IMHO. Entitle it something like "Question for polyamorous Dopers - how did you make it work?" Or something like that.

What you're trying to do is extremely difficult but I don't see where you've failed to realize that. I do worry about your kids and think they should be your number one priority but I also don't think there's any reason to be 100 % negative. Try to get some insight from other people who have been there, like jayjay.


I've heard that plenty of times before.

Clock is ticking, Dubba J.

Don't know what Dubba J. means, but since you know so much about everyone else's relationship, care to speak on mine? I shouldn't even need to tell you about it, right?

[The Great Sun Jester]

Train wreck, explosion, MASSIVE FIREBALL!!!!

Many Easter Bunnys killed.

Don't go there/ Walk away.
I like Busta Chi Chi, but rarely have I ever come remotely as close as I do here to agreeing 100% with anything he's ever posted.

If you couldn't handle your wife getting it on with another person of either gender, then don't do it. Not because of how she may or may not feel, but because in your heart you will know it's wrong for YOU to do. You'll be in violation of your own code. In the end, the only person you ever have to answer to is yourself. Ask yourself what you will accept morally and go with that answer.

[Sternvogel]

[Don't know what Dubba J. means

jayjay can be thought of as JJ. Double J. In some dialects, Dubba J.

[bizzwire]

"Dear Penthouse:

I never thought it would happen to me, but the other day......"

[Telperien]

Yes, I'm picking nits, but I doubt the wife's bisexuality is why she is willing to open the marriage. She may be polyamorous or on the way to it, but bisexuality !=open relationships. I should know.

Sorry. That was really bugging me.

It's the kids that bother me more than anything, should something physical ensue. I was in a situation with a married couple who had two children. The couple wanted me to move in with them, which naturally made me wonder who they would tell the children I was.

Your wife's attitude toward sex (not really connecting it with love), lokij, is probably why she's willing to (I don't want to say "let", but what else can I use?) let you seek sex with someone else. If you're not that kind of person, it's natural to find it odd.

Is your marriage happy? Or is it just not not-unhappy?

I may be reading it wrong, but it doesn't look like you really want to go through with this.

[Atheist Princess]

Just run. You aren't doing anyone any favours by getting involved with you friend. Marriage is about commitment, so you should be commited to your wife. And even more commited to yuor children. How do you think they would feel if your marriage broke up because you wanted to validate yourself by having some sort of intimate relationship with your so-called friend? They would definately NOT be willing to understand.

If your friend was a true friend, she would have walked away by now as well, considering you are married with children and by just admitting that she has feelings for you as well, puts her in the position of contributing to the end of your marriage.

You say that you've had these feelings for 5 years? Why haven't you divorced your wife and pursued this relationship as a single man? Instead you have continued your marriage and are now about to bring another child into the world.

I don't mean to sound old-fashioned, because open-relationships are cool in my books. But open means that both parties would consent to the other having an intimate relationship with someone else. You do not consent to that.

Walk away now before it's too late.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

IANA polyamourous person, but I had some casual fun with more than one sexual partner in my colorful past.

Here's my take on the whole triad thing...

Whether it is a casual sexual romp a la menage a trois or three people having a commitment ceremony and all moving in together, or anything in between, there is one crucial ground rule that must ALWAYS be true or else the whole thing will collapse.

At any moment, you must theoretically be able to take any of the individuals out of the equation...whether it be for 5 minutes while you run to take dinner out of the oven while your wife and your friend are having sex without you...or for 5 months while your wife goes to live with an ill family member, leaving you and your friend together...or for 5 years while you decide you want to backpack across South America to rediscover your soul, leaving your wife and your friend together. You have to imagine what it would be like if any of you were not be part of the here and now and still have everyone comfortable and happy with the resulting situation.

That being said, it is a rare and often transient alignment of the planets, in my (very rare, transient, brief, casual) experiences, and in those of people I know (both brief and casual and otherwise).

This is assuming no kids are involved too. It is difficult enough without kids involved. I don't have a formula that can accomodate them as a variable, but I have known kids who I think were of the calibre that would be able to accept and thrive in such situations.