West Wing 9/25 (open spoilers)

[LavenderBlue]

I thought this was a very fine season opener. They dealt with Leo's elevation to Veep Candidate in a realistic manner.

My favorite scene? The one where Donna asks Josh for a job and he turns her down. In Television Land she would have been hired. In Real Life Land she was turned down. I'm glad the producers opted for real life.

I think Toby's behind the leak not C.J.

So far, so good.

[stuyguy]

I liked it too.

I think your theory about Toby being the leaker has merit. It made me remember that the greeting between him and Bartlet at the opening of the show had a sort of polite chilliness. Maybe that was a clue that Toby had gotten fired or, at least, had pissed the prez off big time.

Also, regarding that scene, I thought having Danny and CJ together as a couple was a nice touch. I wish they had managed to get Sam in there somehow. (After watching him on the ever-constant WW reruns on Bravo, I miss him in the new episodes.)

I agree that the Josh-burns-Donna option was the right way to go -- but maybe because I got so much self-satisfaction predicting Josh's slam-dunk line, "But I won," before it came out of his mouth.

[Little Nemo]

So in three years:

CJ and Danny will be married and living in California.

Toby will be teaching at Columbia.

Will will be a Congressman.

Kate will have written a book.

Charlie will have read Kate's book (and presumedly be doing something beyond that).

So it appears none of them are still working in the White House. Assuming Josh would have kept some of them on, that would mean Vinnick won.

On the other hand, Josh appeared to be announcing the President's arrival as part of his staff rather than just another guest. So that would mean Santos won.

[Amaranta]

When a staffer mentioned something about Leo's daughter Mallory and her baby, (leading to the great line about whether it was a "photogenic baby" and Leo's perfectly horrified look) my roomate and I were all over the Sam angle. But I can't recall whether they had mentioned Mallory's pregnancy and possible marriage before - anyone else?

I was "meh" on the episode. Leo was good, Josh was okay, the Josh-Donna scene was great. I'm glad to see Babish back, if only for an episode or two. Overall - I'm getting very tired of Santos.

[Amaranta]

Very sorry for the double-post -- in the teaser, does anyone remember where Bartlett says Toby was? He responds with "Not a bad place to spend some time" or something like that, and I hope that's not going where I think it's going...

[stuyguy]

Very sorry for the double-post -- in the teaser, does anyone remember where Bartlett says Toby was? He responds with "Not a bad place to spend some time" or something like that, and I hope that's not going where I think it's going...

Columbia -- presumably the university, not the country.

[Sean Factotum]

And of course, I missed the intro of the show just before the opening credits. I understand a little bit more about why it came back as "three years later".

It looks like Josh and Donna aren't going to be getting it on this season. I wonder if she's out of the series now, or will show up in some other capacity. I can't see Vinick hiring her for any kind of position.

And we had Joey. I wonder if Amy is going to be showing up now? That would make a lot of sense, considering how much the Santos campaign has to bring into their corner (the conversation of not conceding the middle, and having to go after the left of the party).

Yeah, I think it is a very good possibility that Toby is the leak. He seemed pretty sure that his dead brother the atronaut would have wanted the military shuttle kept a secret even at the expense of astronaut lives.

[DoctorJ]

So it appears none of them are still working in the White House. Assuming Josh would have kept some of them on, that would mean Vinnick won.
I was thinking the same thing. It's also telling that Alan Alda has a full credit in the opening sequence while Jimmy Smits has a "with", despite the fact that Smits has been far more of a presence on the show.

[Critical Mass]

I think Martin Sheen has been credited with "with" since the beginning.

FWIW, I would prefer to see a Vinnick administration. Santos annoys me.

[DoctorJ]

I think Martin Sheen has been credited with "with" since the beginning.
No, he had, and still has, the "and". Credit placement is the sort of thing fiercely fought over by agents, and somehow it's better to be in that last position with an "and" than to be one of the crowd.

Maybe someone with more insider knowledge can explain how it all works; I don't know if "with" implies something more temporary or what.

[Omniscient]

No, he had, and still has, the "and". Credit placement is the sort of thing fiercely fought over by agents, and somehow it's better to be in that last position with an "and" than to be one of the crowd.

Maybe someone with more insider knowledge can explain how it all works; I don't know if "with" implies something more temporary or what.

I was thinking about this as I watched too, hoping to find a hint of what the outcome would be. Then, on retrospect, I decided that the only reason Jimmy Smits was (almost) last was because he's a slightly more marketable name in Hollywood than Alda is.

For that reason I'm leaning towards a Santos administration, but then again the show isn't typically that predictable.

[Liberal]

It looks like Josh and Donna aren't going to be getting it on this season. I wonder if she's out of the series now, or will show up in some other capacity. I can't see Vinick hiring her for any kind of position.I'm thinking that he might. From the look on her face as she exited, Josh cut too low and too deep this time. I remember last season, when Vinick's campaign began, and Santos had not yet started, Donna was standing in the office with Josh, watching a Vinick speech. She said softly, in an almost questioning tone, "Explain to me again why I shouldn't vote for him?..." She can offer him critical information about Josh, his tactics, and so forth, and I get the feeling that she utterly hates him now. Maybe he could use her in the capacity of brain picking.

[Little Nemo]

I think Josh is still deeply hurt by the fact that Donna quit in the first place. He's always had issues about being abandoned. He's intelligent enough to realize he's wrong intellectually, but he still feels betrayed.

[Little Nemo]

I honestly believe that the producers have not yet decided who's going to win the election. I think this season will be a real contest; not between Santos and Vinnick but between Alda and Smit. Whichever actor seems to gain more audience support will go on to win the role of President.

Smit has the early lead. He's got the advantage of having familiar characters like Josh and Leo in his camp. He also has Teri Polo as an established role. Alda, on the other hand, has only got Patricia Richardson so far. He needs to gain some more supporting characters if he wants to make a serious run.

[Amaranta]

I think your theory about Toby being the leaker has merit. It made me remember that the greeting between him and Bartlet at the opening of the show had a sort of polite chilliness. Maybe that was a clue that Toby had gotten fired or, at least, had pissed the prez off big time.



But the library scene was only three years after. I was thinking Toby was the leaker too, but wouldn't that sort of security breach get you more than three years in jail?

[brianjedi]

But the library scene was only three years after. I was thinking Toby was the leaker too, but wouldn't that sort of security breach get you more than three years in jail?

[About future shows:]Not if you fall on your sword to protect C.J. and the President pardons you before he leaves office.

C.J. leaked it, obviously, but Toby's gonna take the rap for it. (Schiff's already said he's leaving, and he's only signed for 11 episodes anyway.)

Donna will come back at the most critical moment. Josh will realize that the only person who can help them is her, and he'll apologize and beg for her help.

[Baldwin]

I understand why they wanted to have a storyline involving a major leak; the idea being to show how an ethical President would deal with it, as opposed to the miserable wretch currently occupying the White House. My complaint is that the information that was leaked on the show is implausible; I don't believe that a military version of the Space Shuttle could still be any kind of a real secret by the time it was ready to fly.

Didn't see any good reason for Josh not to hire Donna; they had a close working relationship for years, she's gained valuable experience working on the VP's campaign, and she'd be a good addition to the Santos team. Does he really blame her for doing her best for her candidate, or does he think it would look bad for her to be on the Santos campaign after writing such critical statements? That happens all the time in politics; GHW Bush called Reagan's supply-side policies "voodoo economics" before becoming his running mate.

[MaxTheVool]

(Schiff's already said he's leaving, and he's only signed for 11 episodes anyway.)

Uhh, spoiler boxes? I know it says "open spoilers" in the thread title, but I'd assume that means spoilers about this episode, not spoilers about external information that might give away upcoming plot points...

[Little Nemo]

Didn't see any good reason for Josh not to hire Donna; they had a close working relationship for years, she's gained valuable experience working on the VP's campaign, and she'd be a good addition to the Santos team. Does he really blame her for doing her best for her candidate, or does he think it would look bad for her to be on the Santos campaign after writing such critical statements? That happens all the time in politics; GHW Bush called Reagan's supply-side policies "voodoo economics" before becoming his running mate.
I was thinking Josh should have said something like, "I trust you absolutely Donna, but if I hired you, nobody else in this campaign would trust either one of us."

[Sean Factotum]

Didn't see any good reason for Josh not to hire Donna; they had a close working relationship for years, she's gained valuable experience working on the VP's campaign, and she'd be a good addition to the Santos team. Does he really blame her for doing her best for her candidate, or does he think it would look bad for her to be on the Santos campaign after writing such critical statements?
I agree with brianjedi on this one. It makes a lot of sense. For the time being, Donna is out, but she'll show up later on to save Josh's bacon. And he will finally admit his lurve for her. But the press seems to be focusing on odd little things instead of Santos the Candidate, and Josh feels that having Donna be part of this campaign after all the nasty things she's on record as saying will do nothing but distract from the real isues that they want to put forth.

I did like his little aside to her, "... and if you don't think I miss you everyday..." I think that is what hurt Donna more - the fact that if she had stuck with Josh, they'd be together right now, not that he didn't bring her in as his deputy. I don't think she hates Josh - in fact, I doubt that she ever could hate him.

And I heard an interview with Alan Alda last week on NPR.
He said that he doesn't know who wins the election yet, and that he's under the impression that the writers don't either. Interesting if true.

[carnivorousplant]

Lurve is a beutiful thing. :)

[SpoilerVirgin]

1. Jimmy Smits has the more desireable position in the opening credits. Alan Alda appears alphabetically with the rest of the cast (he's only first because his name begins with "A"), while Smits is pulled out separately the way Martin Sheen has been all along. This doesn't mean that Smits/Santos will win the election, just that he's getting more credit as an actor for his role on the show.

2. Toby is the leaker. At least that's what I've believed ever since last year's finale. Toby very much regrets the death of his brother, and would do anything to save other astronauts -- his personal angle on the situation was emphasized in this episode by his concern for the astronauts' wives (while other staffers were worrying about international reaction).

3. This episode was a set-up for a Josh/Donna romance. They couldn't get romantically involved while they were working together without all sorts of ugly complications (witness C.J. and Danny). Now wherever Donna ends up, she'll be free to pursue a relationship with Josh -- although it will almost certainly be Josh doing the pursuing.

4. Speaking of C.J. and Danny -- yay! I hope we get to see some of the development in this relationship before the series ends. I loved the whole cold open -- just thinking about how they'll have to avoid messing with it over the next few years made it worthwhile.

5. The West Wing is back! And Alan Alda is in it!

[Liberal]

I really really really hope that Donna doesn't get romantically entangled with Josh. Granted, a business relation is not the same as a personal one, but Josh's treatment of Donna over the years has bordered on abusive to me. Not in a smack her down kind of way, but in a shut her out kind of way. He seemed to tease her from time to time with seemingly thoughtful little gifts, like the book he gave her when she wanted ski equipment. But he didn't give her ski equipment. He gave her something that he picked up while he was doing something else. He gave her something convenient. To me, he always seemed to treat her the way a man treats the Penthouse hidden under his mattress — be there when I need you, but stay out of my way otherwise. Even his response to her accident seemed more like a study in guilt and jealousy than in love. I think Josh would be really really really bad for her. And I hope she's not that stupid.

[Sean Factotum]

4. Speaking of C.J. and Danny -- yay! I hope we get to see some of the development in this relationship before the series ends. I loved the whole cold open -- just thinking about how they'll have to avoid messing with it over the next few years made it worthwhile.
Don't put too much faith in them maintaining continuity. Remember, in a Season 4 episode where the PBS crew was following CJ around, they said she was the only woman to be White House Press Secty for two full terms.

Hey, what if Barton instructed Toby (or CJ) to leak the existance of the military shuttle? Because, although it looks like Toby did it, I don't think he would have done it on his own. I got the impression that he would insist on honoring the secret, even at the expense of astronaut lives. He told CJ that his brother would have insisted on maintaining the secret, remember. I think that means more to him than any other consideration, except possibly being told by the President to do it. And I can easily see him taking the hit for it.

[Baldwin]

I was thinking Josh should have said something like, "I trust you absolutely Donna, but if I hired you, nobody else in this campaign would trust either one of us."I still just don't see it. It's not as if she had been working for the Republican candidate. It's also not as if she had been doing slimy, Karl Rove-type stuff against Santos before. It was a good scene dramatically, though.

[C K Dexter Haven]

the idea being to show how an ethical President would deal with it, as opposed to the miserable wretch currently occupying the White House. Moderator Growls: such comments have no place in Cafe Society. You want to snipe at a politician, do it in Great Debates or the Pit. Not here. Not again.

I realize that WEST WING does tend to reflect current politics, but it is fiction, it is not political satire. Restrain yourself.

[Baldwin]

Dex, did you know that when you get all growly and start moderatin', you sound just like Clint Eastwood?

In fact, you're right, and point taken. However, the next time you address me, skip the posturing.

Back to the subject: It'll be interesting to see how the relationship between Leo and Santos works out. They have very different styles, and don't know each other well yet. After two terms of being in the middle of things as White House Chief of Staff, he'll surely want his VP job to be a close partnership with the President (assuming they're elected).

[C K Dexter Haven]

Moderator interrupts briefly: Please, folks, even though the thread title says "Open Spoilers," readers will assume that means about the 9/25 show. If you want to provide a spoiler for another episode, whether earlier or later, please use spoiler boxes.

You do that by typing:
Whatever you want hidden
and it will come out:
Whatever you want hidden

In short, I'm agreeing with MaxtheVool. However, Max, when you want to call attention to a spoiler that you think should be boxed, please don't quote it -- you're just requiring me to fix things twice rather than once. OK? :)

[Sean Factotum]

It'll be interesting to see how the relationship between Leo and Santos works out. They have very different styles, and don't know each other well yet. After two terms of being in the middle of things as White House Chief of Staff, he'll surely want his VP job to be a close partnership with the President (assuming they're elected).
VPs, in real life (generally) and in The West Wing are selected on their ability to bring in votes that the candidate for President cannot get. Here, Josh picked Leo because he has the foreign policy savvy that Santos lacks, and which would become an issue in the campaign. As VP, he will find that his job is far different from his days as Bartlett's CoS. Rarely are the Pres/VP candidates friends IRL. Look at the way Barlett and Vice President Otter got along. He was insulted to be recruited as VP at the convention that nominated Barlett for his first run at the White House. And he was a good complement for Barlett until that whole sleeping with a gossip reporter thing.

[Elendil's Heir]

For some reason, we lost the sound when Josh is talking in his office with Marlee Matlin and her aide. Could someone tell me what they talked about (the more detail, the better), please?

[iamthewalrus(:3=]

For some reason, we lost the sound when Josh is talking in his office with Marlee Matlin and her aide. Could someone tell me what they talked about (the more detail, the better), please?They're going over the poll results, and spend a bit of time on the single word most used to describe Santos: "appealing." Joey paints a picture of Santos as the star of some romantic scene with a fireplace and fingers running through her hair. "Women like him and men want to have a beer with him." The upshot is that they want to try to make Santos seem more substantial and leader-y and less soap operatic.

The romantic image is referenced by Josh in the meeting with the media folk when he makes an offhand comment about "biceps" and such.