Is "Dutch" racist?

[JoeyHemlock]

I recently heard that "Dutch" is a derogatory term for someone from the neterlands, and the correct term is "Netherlandish". Can anyone tell me if this is true?

Also, are Holland and The Netherlands the same thing? I always thought that Holland was just a small part of the country.

[BobT]

Holland is a section of the Netherlands. There are two provinces (? is that the correct term) called North Holland and South Holland (translated into English). There are a lot of other administrative areas, like Limburg and Zeeland

[capacitor]

I been wonering too: why does 'Dutch' refer to something of Netherlandian origin, when "German" is used to refer to something or someone from Deutschland.

[Surgoshan]

Simple enough to settle it.

HEY! COLDFIRE! Whaddaya wanna be called?

[Lazarus7]

My family is dutch (my mom was born in Den Haag) ... they call themselves dutch so I doubt it is derogatory

[pkbites]

I've heard black folks refer to themselves as Ni......
and Polish folk refer to themselves as pollocks, Irishmen refer to themselves as micks, etc. Maybe the Dutch just don't realize they are degrading themselves.

[RussellM]

Of course some people call themselves Dutch - they are Dutch. The point is that not everyone in the Netherlands considers themselves to be Dutch. To call one of them Dutch could be considered derogatory.

It may not make sense to the overwhelmingly American audience here, but this happens a lot. Many Scots are happy to be called British - which we are - but are unhappy to be called English - which we are not. To outsiders, the difference may be minimal, but it is important.

If you are a proud Texan, you may or may not want to be called American, but you are unlikely to be happy being referred to as Californian.

Russell

[RussellM]

...and another thing. This is not a racist issue. Nationality is not the same as race. Such as it is, this is a Nationalist issue.

Russell

[Balduran]

So who are the Dutch? The residents of the Hollands?

[Coldfire]

Originally posted by BobT
Holland is a section of the Netherlands. There are two provinces (? is that the correct term) called North Holland and South Holland (translated into English). There are a lot of other administrative areas, like Limburg and Zeeland

Correct.

"Dutch" is not a derogatory term at all. Let's list some facts.

1) The country is officially called The Netherlands, or "Nederland" (popular version, Nederland = singular, Dutch), or "Koninkrijk der Nederlanden" (Kingdom of the Netherlands, official version, Nederlanden = plural, Dutch).

2) The two provinces quoted above make up Holland. However, Holland is also used as a generic term for the entire country, especially abroad. Some people do not appreciate this (especialy those from Limburg and Friesland, provinces with a strong culture and own dialect/language), and wish to be called "Nederlander" instead of "Hollander". People from Limburg, to make matters complicated, use the term "Hollander" (or rather, the dialect version, "Hollènder") as a derogatory term for everything that is not Limburg. Which is dumb, because they too are missing the point when they do so, unless someone is really from South- or North Holland.

3) The word "Dutch" has nothing to do with the German word for German, "Deutsch". In middel-Dutch, the word "Duitsch" or "Duytsch" meant "common", "of the people". The first line of our national anthem is:
"Wilhelmus van Nassaue, ben ick van Duytschen bloedt". This means: "William of Orange (our first king, late 16th century), am I, of common blood". He was basically saying he was your average John Doe ;)
This is most likely the word that got bastardised to the English word "Dutch". Sure, "Netherlandish" would be more accurate, but why change it now? "Dutch" is shorter anyway.


In short, we are all Dutch, we are all from the Netherlands, and some of us are from Holland (I live in Holland, but was not born there, yet I am Dutch :D). However, some people will correct you when you say they're from Holland. They'll tell you they're from The Netherlands. Nothing to worry about though, it's not a major insult. Who cares about those hicks, anyway ;)
Also, don't worry about thinking "Dutch" has something to do with "Deutsch". Most Dutch people even think that the aforementioned middle-Dutch word "Duytsch" means the same as our modern word "Duits" (German).

Ignorance is a worldwide phenomenon ;)

[C K Dexter Haven]

My conversations with Dutch business colleagues agree absolutely with Coldfire's comments.

In English, of course, the word "Dutch" has been used in a somewhat derogatory fashion, as in "Dutch treat", but that's different from simply calling someone "Dutch."

You gotta admire a people for whom Anne Franke is a national hero.

[Coldfire]

It's Anne Frank, by the way. And ironically, we call a BYOB party an "Amerikaans Feest", American Party. Go figure ;)

[Retief]

Thanks for the excellent explanation. I always wondered about that bit in the national anthenem quote ."Wilhelmus van Nassaue, ben ick van Duytschen bloedt". endquote,I always figured he had been born a german prince (like Claus & Bernard) and never questioned the assumption. Now another question: Was that the same "William of Orange" who caused so much trouble for the Irish that they are still protesting the "Orangeman" day march today, or was that a later decendent? I have never been able to figure that one out.

[Coldfire]

Nope, that was William the Third (of Orange), the grandson of William of Orange. He merily sailed up the Thames and took over Britain ;)

After a long break in the tradition, our crown prince Willem Alexander has announced that he shall assume the name Willem IV, or William IV, when he becomes the King. Also, this will be our first king in 150 years. Damn wimmin ;)

A side note: father Claus (German) and grandfather Bernhard (German) make Willem Alexander 75% German. King of the Netherlands... sort of.

[APB]

Nope, that was William the Third (of Orange and of Great Britain), the great-grandson of the aforementioned William of Orange a.k.a William the Silent. He didn't sail up the Thames.

[Coldfire]

Great-grandson, you're right.

[APB]

Thanks. I always get it confused as well.

[tomndebb]

I wandered into a bookstore looking for a translating dictionary and asked for a "Nederlanse-English" wordbook (after apologizing for speaking only English).

The clerk coldly corrected me that I wanted a "Dutch-English" book.

(Most folks were a lot friendlier.)

[sailor]

Dutch is out. The preferred term now is Inuit.

[TwistofFate]

A very strange point here....

Irish people love the Dutch. our supporters get on great with each other (In Orlando the Nederlanders and the Irish had a HUGE street party).
I do technical support for the Nederlands, and they dont mind being called Dutch.

As for the William the Third issue, we dont hate him, its the Bigots that parade to celebrate a meaningless 300 yr old battle held in Boyne Co. Meath between the Orangeites, supporters of William III (protestant), and Jacobites (catholic).

I dont mind the parades, as long as they dont parade where they are not wanted. This is the issue of contention at the moment.

The orangemen insist they have a "God Given Right" to march their "traditional route". The Nationalist communities do not want the parades to go through their areas.

however, this is not the thread to discuss this issue. If anyone wants a further explination. open a new thread and I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have.

[Coldfire]

The most amazing thing about the Irish - Dutch relationship (which is indeed exellent), is the fact that they still want to party with us after 150 defeats in a row :D

Oh, and Larrigan? Spot-on about the Orangemen issue. Traditions that harm others should be abolished.

[JoeyHemlock]

Thanks all (especially Coldfire) for clearing this up! Consider this one more piece of ignorance erradicated from the Earth (but there is still a lot left...).

Incidently, the reason that I asked is that my grandfather was born in The Netherlands, and I wanted to make sure that I wasn't doing him a dishonor by saying I'm of Dutch ancestry. Now I know. :)

Thanks again.

[TwistofFate]

BTW- isnt the Irish dutch match on at the same time that you'll be over here?

[Coldfire]

Originally posted by JoeyHemlock
Incidently, the reason that I asked is that my grandfather was born in The Netherlands, and I wanted to make sure that I wasn't doing him a dishonor by saying I'm of Dutch ancestry.

No sir! It is an honour to be able to say that ;)
Where's your grandfather from?

Larrigan: unfortunately, that game is September 2nd. That would have been supercool though!

[BobT]

I'm always somewhat embarrassed visiting the Netherlands because it seems that the Dutch speak English better than a native English speaker like I.

Then again, I tried to learn some Dutch off of some instructional tapes and decided to forget about it. Since I wasn't going way into the countryside, it wasn't a problem. The Dutch also seem to have one of the most efficient rail services in all of Europe.

I assume the size of the country helps in that.

[TampaFlyer]

> a somewhat derogatory fashion, as in "Dutch treat",

How is that derogatory? It just means each person pays for his own stuff.

[yabob]

Dutch wasn't a racist, he just terrorized everybody ...

[ENugent]

I'm always somewhat embarrassed visiting the Netherlands because it seems that the Dutch speak English better than a native English speaker like I.

An excellent example. ;)

[John Corrado]

Tampa Flyer asked:
How is that derogatory? It just means each person pays for his own stuff.

Like Scotsmen, the Dutch had a negative sterotype of being incredibly cheap. When FDR began looking very haggard in 1944, one of his advisors said, "He looks so bad because he's lost so much weight, and the damned Dutchman in him won't let him go out and buy new shirts."

When you are treated, you are invited to dinner and have it paid for you.

When you are Dutch treated, you are invited to dinner and then expected to pay for your share. It's not much of a treat.

John Corrado
(Half Italian, Half Welsh. I get really depressed, and really loud about it.)

[Amok]

Ok, so where is Orange that these Williams were of? I did try looking that up myself on the net, but due to the apparent linguistic coincidence (unless Orange is very orange, or full of oranges, in which case it isn't a coincidence, I suppose) there are a lot of entries for 'Orange'. When it comes to geographic place names, the only entries I noticed (ignoring entries like Orange County, CA) was a river in South Africa named the Orange River (forming one of the borders, appropriately enough, of the Orange Free State) and a city called Orange in the south of France. Given the timeline I assume the river (and Free State) in Africa were named after the original Orange by Dutch settlers, and not the other way around, but I couldn't determine if the city in France is William of Orange's Orange.

[Balduran]

Isn't Rik Smit's nickname "Dutch Treat"?

[Earl Snake-Hips Tucker]

"Dutch" was used as a derogatory adjective ascribed by the English settlers, and referred to things that were not specifically "Dutch." (Remember they weren't the best of friends in New Amsterdam.)

Dutch treat: not a "treat" at all. Each pays his own.
Dutch uncle: one who admonishes sternly and bluntly
Dutch oven: rather primitive contraption
Dutch courage: "courage" born of inebriation


And there are probably more.

[yabob]

... but I couldn't determine if the city in France is William of Orange's Orange.

It was.

http://www.bartleby.com/65/or/OrangeFr.html

[JoeyHemlock]

Originally posted by Coldfire
[QUOTE]No sir! It is an honour to be able to say that ;)
Where's your grandfather from?


I asked my mom. Here's what she said (Forsten was his surname):

He was from Groningen in the province of Groningen. He was born on the boat his father ran on the canals in Groningen. They sold peat for fuel.
Earlier the Forstens were from Wildervank and Veendam. All of our family in the Netherlands that I have found came from the province of Groningen. It's in the northernmost part of the Netherlands. I believe that just about everyone named Forsten in the Netherlands is related to us.
I have our Strating family back to about 1700, before they used surnames. Someone in the Netherlands sent it to me. I'm stuck with my research because I can't read the and written Dutch church records before 1811.

If you know any Forstens, my mom would love to talk to them.

[Coldfire]

Forsten is a VERY unusual name! Strating, however, is more common. Groningen is a beautiful city. Tell your mom I would be more than happy to help her out with translating stuff.

Yup, Orange in the South of France is where our Royal Family is originally from. Oh, and we're STILL considered cheapskates by some. The Belgians, mostly - Belgium is to us what Canada is to the US :D

[KeithB]

All I know about William of Orange was from "The First Salute" by Barbara Tuchman. You can see how *tough* it can be to win a revolution, compared to the wimpy one we had hear in America.

I have nothing but respect for the Dutch after reading how they threw off the Spanish.

(The book is actually about the American Revolution, the "First Salute" was given by a small Dutch Colony in the Carribean who first officially recognized a ship sailing under the American Flag. It connects to William because the Dutch were sympathetic to our revolution because of theirs...)

[mipsman]

I believe William of Orange landed at Lyme Regis in the south of England. There is a citric motif about him.

[BobT]

Originally posted by ENugent
I'm always somewhat embarrassed visiting the Netherlands because it seems that the Dutch speak English better than a native English speaker like I.

An excellent example. ;)


D'oh! I was being too careful and I ended up getting hoisted by my own petard.

[JoeyHemlock]

Tell your mom I would be more than happy to help her out with translating stuff.


If you're serious, I'm sure she'll take you up on this. I have asked her to scan the pages she has and I will forward them to you. She absolutely loves geneology and any help she can get will be appreciated.

You rock, Coldfire. You friggin' rock. (I hope that translates well. :))

[Coldfire]

No problem Joey. As long as it isn't 50 pages of translating, that is ;)

[Dumbguy]

Originally posted by pweetman
Isn't Rik Smit's nickname "Dutch Treat"?
No, it's 'The Dunking Dutchman', or as I like to call him, 'Dutchboy in the Paint'.

[Cartooniverse]

Originally posted by Mjollnir
"Dutch" was used as a derogatory adjective ascribed by the English settlers, and referred to things that were not specifically "Dutch." (Remember they weren't the best of friends in New Amsterdam.)

Dutch treat: not a "treat" at all. Each pays his own.
Dutch uncle: one who admonishes sternly and bluntly
Dutch oven: rather primitive contraption
Dutch courage: "courage" born of inebriation
And there are probably more.

To this I add another one, one whose origin I cannot fathom- and of course, equally derogatory, I'd wager. As a Cameraman, I'm asked to shoot a shot "Dutch Angle"- that is, with the horizon tilted to one side. Origin????

As far as I can tell, the so-called "Dutch Master" Painters, whose work I revere ( especially Vermeer's) always kept a pretty level horizon. Whence, then, this term?

Cartooniverse

[nebuli]

The Word Detective website has a column on "Dutch" slurs at
http://www.word-detective.com/back-h.html#dutch
It doesn't mention Dutch Angle, but does reference a more complete listing in a book by Clayton Rawson. Maybe that could give a history of the term.

[Chronos]

OK, I can see how those other expressions are derogatory, but saying that "dutch oven" is insulting, just because it's simple? It works well, for what it's designed for, and I've yet to see the "high-tech" equivalent. Maybe that particular term has a legitimate origin? Invented in the Netherlands, perhaps? Used by the "Pensylvania Dutch"? Anyone know?

[Coldfire]

From this (http://victorian.fortunecity.com/cloisters/46/ch8.htm) site:
The DUTCH ANGLE is a shot where the camera is tilted so that vertical lines are at an angle. A person standing would not be perpendicular when this is shown on the screen. They might be used to provide P.O.V. shots of a person who is drunk or mentally unbalanced. They might also be used in a montage for effect. A screenwriter would rarely have need to call for a Dutch Angle shot.

A WAG: it's the drunk and mentally unbalanced thing that makes it Dutch :D
This was the only thing I could find though. I'm thinking about famous Dutch film-producers like Bert Haanstra and Dick Maas, but they're all pretty conventional from what I recall. Anton Corbijn is slightly more experimental, but he's mostly known for his photographic work (e.g. the cover of the U2 Joshua Tree album). He did do some videos as well. "Losing my Religion" by R.E.M. comes to mind, although I'm not sure it's his.

A Dutch oven is unknown to me as well.

[Primaflora]

A Dutch oven is a cast iron pot with a lid. Very efficient and useful.

There is also the uncouth practice of farting under the bed covers and holding one's partner's head under the blankets. I don't know if this charming custom and term is only in NZ/Australia though.

[Dystopos]

Since everything else has already been covered, I'll go ahead and mention that "Pennsylvania Dutch" is a corruption of "Deutsch" and they were indeed of German origin.

I don't know for sure, but I would guess that the middel-Dutch "duitsch" for "common" might be from the same root as the German "deutsch" - many people call themselves "the people" or "the folk" in their own language and Deutsch is not unrelated to Nederlands.

also:

"Dutch-doors" - traditional Nederlandish carpentry or slur for "half-assed door"?
"Dutch Apple Pie" - almost certainly German, right?
"Dutch" as slang for a bad temper
"in Dutch" as slang for in trouble

Dank u vel en goedenacht.

[The Ryan]

Seems like if anything is deragoratory, it's the term "Netherlands". I mean, the term "nether" doesn't have all that great of connotations.

[Coldfire]

Originally posted by Dystopos
Dank u vel en goedenacht.

Dank u wel en goedenacht ;)

I'll leave the translation to your imagination, Teeming Millions - it's an easy one.

The Ryan: it isn't derogatory when you think of the actual reason: Nederland[/b] means "low land" in middle-Dutch. Our tallest mountain (and I use the term loosely) is 312 meters high - the same hight as the Eiffel Tower in Paris. Pathetic, huh ;)
Add to that the knowledge that 70% of the country is below water level because of our ability to build good dykes (no pun, naturally), and the term [i]Nether is quite appropriate.

Anyone who knows the Dutch, knows that "Nether" does not apply to our general attitude - we're pretty arrogant bastards, in the patriotic sense of the word ;)

[Coldfire]

Also, VB is a foreign language to most Dutch people, as can be witnessed above...