In Which I pit a Vegan (tame)

[incidental]

Okay, first off, I have no problems with Vegans in general. I'm a long time vegetarian myself. However, I think this situation crosses a line...

Some members of my class recently set up a dinner club. We are randomly arranged into groups and the group members take turns cooking and hosting a dinner. It is all voluntary, and no one has to participate. I thought, "cool, I can make a decent lasguna, this sounds like fun."

But my group got assigned TheVegan. The Vegan then sent out an e-mail informing the group that she doesn't eat meat, gluten, flour, salt, butter, cheese, eggs, baked goods, etc. etc. But hey, most plants are okay. Thank goodness, I thought we were in trouble for a minute there.

So, what the hell are we supposed to cook? A salad? Good grief. I don't know how to do this. Why in the world would you join a cooking group with such severe dietary restrictions*? Okay, you want to meet new people. Then join a group whose focus isn't cooking!

The more patient members of the group are suggesting that she just bring a side dish to each meal and not be responsible for cooking an entire meal herself. Bravo, but I still pit the ditz for joining a group she is inherently unsuited for.

*I'm guessing part of her diet is a result of allergies.

[smiling bandit]

flour

Flour? Flour? Flour?

What kind of meal do you have with no meat, dairy, salt, or grains? What the heck does she eat?

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

But my group got assigned TheVegan. The Vegan then sent out an e-mail informing the group that she doesn't eat meat, gluten, flour, salt, butter, cheese, eggs, baked goods, etc. etc. But hey, most plants are okay. Thank goodness, I thought we were in trouble for a minute there.
Sounds pretty clueless. I think the Miss Manners thing to do would be to send out a follow-up email: "I think this is a great point, Vegan, although we should probably handle it in a different way. Why don't we let folks know in advance what meal we plan to make--that way, if other folks will be unable to eat it, they will know to bring a dish for themselves to that particular dinner? For example, the lasagna I'm going to make will violate every single one of your restrictions, so that may not be the best dinner club meeting for you to come to."

That way, she'll get the picture without a confrontation being necessary.

Daniel

[RickJay]

Flour? Flour? Flour?

What kind of meal do you have with no meat, dairy, salt, or grains? What the heck does she eat?
What plant doesn't have any salt in it, anyway?

[FinnAgain]

Salt? Last time I checked sea salt didn't come from any animal.

[Updike]

Flour? Flour? Flour?

What kind of meal do you have with no meat, dairy, salt, or grains? What the heck does she eat?

Salt, too. It's a mineral, no animals involved. Also, no one is allergic to salt. The OP's classmate is a whackjob. (Like most Vegans ;) )

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Wow, I missed the salt bit.

She could have (or suffer from the delusion that she has) celiac disease, which would mean that flour is out. Her veganism could account for most other restrictions. But the salt thing is pretty bizarre. Maybe she means that she tries to minimize her salt intake?

In any case, I think that making clear to her that it's her responsibility to avoid eating these foods, and not yours to avoid serving her these foods, is necessary.

Daniel

[DiosaBellissima]

Salt? Last time I checked sea salt didn't come from any animal.

Yeah, but one time a fish cast a shadow on it.

[even sven]

Whoah man. I'm a vegetarian. It's never a factor. It almost never ever ever even comes up. And when it does, I don't mention it- it's my problem for being such a weirdo, after all.

Unfortunately, I end up around a lot of vegans. Let's face it, if you are vegan, you just have to give up on the idea of food being a social thing. You arn't going to be able to go to restraunts. You arn't going to be a big hit at dinner parties. You are going to end up either being very hungry or very annoying.

Food allergies are rather rare (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1639697.stm) and certainly don't account for all the people who claim to have them. For example, most people will tell you they are sensitive to MSG. But when they did a study of "sensitive to MSG" individuals where they secretly fed them massive amounts of MSG, most people did not report any reaction.

Anyway, I'm all for taking people's words for things, but since veganism (and vegetarianism, for that matter) is a bit of an eating disorder on it's own, anyone who has a further restricted diet is a little suspect to me.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Anyway, I'm all for taking people's words for things, but since veganism (and vegetarianism, for that matter) is a bit of an eating disorder on it's own, anyone who has a further restricted diet is a little suspect to me.
What the hell? In what manner is veganism an eating disorder?

Daniel

[eenerms]

FWIW November is National Vegan Month.

[Monty]

So, what the hell are we supposed to cook? A salad? Good grief. I don't know how to do this.
I suppose you could go here (http://vegetarian.allrecipes.com/) and type in vegan in the search window to see if you like any of the 283 recipes that show up.

[incidental]

Flour? Flour? Flour?

What kind of meal do you have with no meat, dairy, salt, or grains? What the heck does she eat?

Ah yes, I also forgot that sugar isn't allowed either. There goes 70% of my diet.

Apparently, she eats a lot of plants. She's brought some strange things to school (veggie smoothies? ewwww). I'll probably learn more after the first dinner club meeting - presumably she won't be eating and will have plenty of time to explain how she came up with all this.

I just assumed the white flour/glutans thing had to be an allergy. I certainly can't fathom the reasoning behind it if it's voluntary.

[SteveG1]

FWIW November is National Vegan Month.
Why November? Did they forget about Turkey Day? Talk about bad timing.

[SteveG1]

Ah yes, I also forgot that sugar isn't allowed either. There goes 70% of my diet.

Apparently, she eats a lot of plants. She's brought some strange things to school (veggie smoothies? ewwww). I'll probably learn more after the first dinner club meeting - presumably she won't be eating and will have plenty of time to explain how she came up with all this.

I just assumed the white flour/glutans thing had to be an allergy. I certainly can't fathom the reasoning behind it if it's voluntary.
Intersting. Especially since fruits are loaded with sugars. Glucose? Fructose? Some sort of ___ose.

[incidental]

I suppose you could go here (http://vegetarian.allrecipes.com/) and type in vegan in the search window to see if you like any of the 283 recipes that show up.

I suppose. I just kind of resent having to restrict the meals that severely. I like cheese, milk, salt and sugar. I'm also fairly busy - with the recipes I know I can get them going and then wander off because I know what to expect.

[Otto]

veganism (and vegetarianism, for that matter) is a bit of an eating disorder on it's own
Wow, this is perhaps the dumbest thing I've read all year.

[HPL]

Salt, too. It's a mineral, no animals involved. Also, no one is allergic to salt. The OP's classmate is a whackjob. (Like most Vegans ;) )

I was under the impression that you needed a certain amount of salt in your diet to remain healthy. Isn't that why people die of overhydration, because their water and salt levels go too out of whack?

[liberty3701]

I just assumed the white flour/glutans thing had to be an allergy. I certainly can't fathom the reasoning behind it if it's voluntary.
some people are just anti-wheat. I forget the exact reasons; being a vegan, I had many friends in college in southern california with more extreme diets than mine, and many of them didn't eat any wheat products. I usually tuned out when they explained why. Now I live in the south where people still ask me if I eat pork when I explain what veganism is.

But, yeah, that's silly of her to join such a group and expect other people to change all their plans.

[BlueKangaroo]

A friend told me sugar can be out for some vegans and even "regular" vegetarians because of the bleaching process. She said it uses bonemeal somehow. Maybe that's why fruits are in and "sugar" is out?

I don't actually know about this, but that's what I was told when I was trying to figure out how to make vegan brownies. She also said that sometimes chocolate is not vegan, from what she understands. However, neither of us is vegetarian of any stripe, much less vegan, so this could be incorrect.

Does anyone know about chocoalte and sugar being not vegan?

Either way, it sounds like she needs a different social outlet.

[Monty]

Now I live in the south where people still ask me if I eat pork when I explain what veganism is.
Hah! That must be a "southern" thing. I have to tell people here in South Korea that vegetarian also means no ham.

[holmes]

Some chocolate contains wheat.

[Go You Big Red Fire Engine]

Food allergies are rather rare (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1639697.stm) and certainly don't account for all the people who claim to have them. For example, most people will tell you they are sensitive to MSG. But when they did a study of "sensitive to MSG" individuals where they secretly fed them massive amounts of MSG, most people did not report any reaction.
As my roommate once said, "I thinkt he food there had MSG in it. I was really full, but I got hungry again really quickly." I don't know what the hell she thinks MSG does. But then again, she thinks she's allergic to "chemicals"...

[rant]
I once went on a camp. It wasn't until we got there that they tell us that they'll need money to buy food, but they will only buy vegetarian foods. After all "going without meat for 5 days can't hurt won't hurt anyone.*" If we wanted to buy somethng with meat in it, we had to buy it ourselves*. It would've been nice to know about this before-hand so that I could've brung my own food along.

It was union run women's camp. And the union wonders why people want to get rid of them.

[/end rant]


*At the time I had a really low Hb count, and I donated blood on a regular basis despite this. They didn't substitute the meat with anything with a high iron count either, no leafy greens, no nuts...
*Of course that meant buying from the convenience store, which we could only get to when they drove (which was twice), and only stocked roast chicken and ham anyway.

[dangermom]

It's my understanding that ordinary sugar is out for vegans because of the processing; they claim it uses animal byproducts somehow. Sugar in the Raw, which comes in a brown paper package, is the solution to that problem, or that plant that is sweet that I forgot the name of.

Ordinary chocolate contains both sugar and milk products, so it's out, but you can buy special vegan chocolate--it's very dark.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

I suppose you could go here (http://vegetarian.allrecipes.com/) and type in vegan in the search window to see if you like any of the 283 recipes that show up.
Let's see:

Ooh, chickpea curry! That sounds good, and it's--oh, wait. It's got salt in it.
Black bean soup, yum! no salt in the recipe--but that vegetable broth is almost certainly full of salt.

Ginger veggie stir fry! Not only salt, but it's also got soy sauce in it, which is really salty AND made with wheat.

Bok choy salad? What the hell? Soy sauce AND ramen noodles. Salt and wheat central!

That's the first three recipes. The rest follow the same pattern.

And yes, I've seen a letter from one of the sugar manufacturers, on their letterhead, confirming that the sugar is filtered via charcoalized cow bones (I forget the exact terms they used, but that was the gist of it). The best part about the letter was that they assured the consumer that the bones were from Indian cows, which were famously treated very well. It was really bizarre--I almost suspect that the public relations department was sending an implied "fuck you, hippie!" message to the vegan who'd inquired about the process.

Daniel

[Frank]

The best part about the letter was that they assured the consumer that the bones were from Indian cows, which were famously treated very well. It was really bizarre--I almost suspect that the public relations department was sending an implied "fuck you, hippie!" message to the vegan who'd inquired about the process.
I can almost wrap my mind around that. It implies that the cows died of natural causes rather than being slaughtered.

[liberty3701]

And yes, I've seen a letter from one of the sugar manufacturers, on their letterhead, confirming that the sugar is filtered via charcoalized cow bones (I forget the exact terms they used, but that was the gist of it).
From Animal Ingredients, A to Z, Second Edition (http://akpress.org/2004/items/animalingredients)...
"The popular rumor says that cane sugar is processed through gelatin. This is untrue. Come cane sugars are processed using boneblack as a decolorant. The process is similar but not the same. [explanation of the difference between gelatin and boneblack that made me throw up a little in my mouth] At any rate, it is not suitable for vegans. We contacted several popular cane sugar manufacturers and they all confirmed the use of boneblack in their processes. We recomend contacting the manufacturer directly to inquire whether or not their particular brand of sugar is vegan."

[xbuckeye]

Any milk chocolates would be out for vegans since they contain milk.

The gluten thing is weird, but I've met people who actually really believe that gluten causes GI cancers. So does refined sugar....so they say.

I've never heard of someone who doesn't eat any grains, she may not realize that flour/=wheat. She must eat fruits and vegetables and nuts and legumes, but if she eats other grains, you could use rice noodles, or other types of noodles for your lasagna...If you had to.

If you cannot eat a reasonably normal diet, IMHO, it is your job to provide a personal alternative or make do with what you can eat from what is served. If you are cooking for a group, you shouldn't have to make something that sucks tofu balls because you have crazy not eating psycho in your club.

Salt and sugar are pretty ubiquitous, so you probably get plenty from the foods you eat if you eat a balanced diet...but this chick isn't doing that. I don't think that vegitarianism/veganism is an eating disorder for some people, for for some it is. Bulimia and anorexia are as much about self control as they are about diet/body image. Many vegitarians and vegans also have no idea how to eat a balanced diet, so as they age, they will face nutrient defecits, osteoporosis, dimished functionality, etc., or they will give up their vegg ways.

But people still smoke, too...people are dumb.

I respect your right to be vegg, but when it come to potluck time, I don't follow your rules...but I respect your right not to eat what I prepared.

[liberty3701]

you shouldn't have to make something that sucks tofu balls because you have crazy not eating psycho in your club.

Hey!

Tofu balls are delicious!

No, really...

[EddyTeddyFreddy]

Salt? Last time I checked sea salt didn't come from any animal.But... but.... but it might have passed through a fish's kidneys! :eek:

[XT]

My sisters husband used to be a vegan (strict vegan I suppose...he still is a vegan but not as strict and my sister is just a vegetarian). I asked about the salt and he said 'sea salt is fine. Regular table salt is processed though so some have a problem with that.' No idea what that means, he didn't have time to get into a lot of detail. Wheat was the same...whole wheat (unprocessed? god knows what that means) is fine, but processed wheat is out. Of course the 'meat...butter, cheese, eggs' thing would be right out, thats pretty standard for a vegan (and most vegetarians, though my sister eats the dairy stuff). Baked goods I think would depend on how you prepared them and what ingrediants were used...my guess is this lady is just giving blanket restrictions because she has found out in the past that people use ingrediants that are processed or baked goods using some kind of animal fat or something.

Were it me I'd ask here if her for more details on some of those to make sure she really has problems with them, or if its just in how they are prepared (i.e. if she actually CAN have salt, wheat, etc...but that it needs to be from a vegan oriented source).

As for whether or not veganism is 'an eating disorder', I think that was supposed to be a joke, though one that I would say has a ring of truth. I know that my brother in law is decidedly odd about what he'll eat, and I know from my sister that he has to be VERY careful in making sure he gets all the nutrients he's supposed to or he could get sick (due to all the things he can't or won't eat). When you are on a diet that could potentially cause you harm if you aren't careful about it, I suppose you could say that this was 'an eating disorder'...if you are willing to stretch and bend enough it meets that definition. Of course, the 'standard American diet' could probably be considered ' an eating disorder ' as well. :p

-XT

[XT]

Oh...sugar was the same. They actually eat cane sugar (completely unprocessed) in some of their foods (I'm talking my brother in law here...my sister has no problem with sugar), but processed sugar is definitely a no-no. (don't ask me why, I don't understand the other things either).

-XT

[Mama Tiger]

Some vegans (clearly not all) can be total nutbars. I'll never forget the woman I worked with who explained to me that she doesn't eat dairy because "dairy causes mucus and mucus causes diseases." Somehow, she seems to have that whole cause/effect thing turned upside down, but there was clearly no point in discussing it with her.

Frankly, I don't see any reason why you should do anything other than let the woman know what you're fixing, and if she can't eat it, she should bring her own food. Otherwise you might find that all dinner conversation will end up being her dissecting every brand of every ingredient used in every dish, and explaining why, oh, she can't possibly eat THAT if it includes THAT. Nope. Bring her own is the only solution I can see.

[incidental]

Let's see:

Ooh, chickpea curry! That sounds good, and it's--oh, wait. It's got salt in it.
Black bean soup, yum! no salt in the recipe--but that vegetable broth is almost certainly full of salt.

Ginger veggie stir fry! Not only salt, but it's also got soy sauce in it, which is really salty AND made with wheat.

Bok choy salad? What the hell? Soy sauce AND ramen noodles. Salt and wheat central!

That's the first three recipes. The rest follow the same pattern.

And yes, I've seen a letter from one of the sugar manufacturers, on their letterhead, confirming that the sugar is filtered via charcoalized cow bones (I forget the exact terms they used, but that was the gist of it). The best part about the letter was that they assured the consumer that the bones were from Indian cows, which were famously treated very well. It was really bizarre--I almost suspect that the public relations department was sending an implied "fuck you, hippie!" message to the vegan who'd inquired about the process.

Daniel

All good points. The thing that bothered me the most about trying something new is I don't know how it will turn out. If I am cooking for a group of casual aquintances, I would like to be reasonably certain that whatever I prepare will be tasty. I have a number of dishes that I've tried with other people and they have all lived to tell the tale _and_ spoken to me the next day.

The situation also kind of reminds me of my mother. When I first became a vegetarian, way back in high school, I was informed that the family dinner wasn't going to change. No problem, I just ate the vegetable and grain parts and skipped the meat bit. Didn't bother me, didn't wreak havoc with the family meal.

Then my mother discovered vegetarian recipes. Every once in a while, she would get the idea that she was going to produce the latest healthy vegetarian dish and would launch into a flurry of cooking. Sometimes it was okay, but there were a number of god-awful meals that was presented to me as some kind of gift: Look! You too can join the family eating the main dish of soggy tofu*! Pointing out that the effort was uneccessary and really, I Like grilled cheese sandwiches was apparently offensive or ungrateful or something.

I guess I'm trying to say that I just don't want to be the person bringing the soggy tofu and expecting everyone to enjoy it. Better to stick with something I know.

And just to really confuse matters - she informed me that she does eat yeast. I honestly don't get it. I'll have to corner her on Monday and see if there's any kind of logic behind her diet.


*Tofu when properly prepared, can be very tasty. However, tofu in the hands of an amateur can be a dangerous thing.

[even sven]

What the hell? In what manner is veganism an eating disorder?

Anyone who eats a severly restricted diet based on some other thing than preferences/health has some degree of an eating disorder. If you have developed a lot of blanket rules about what you eat and do not factor in rational exceptions, that is not a normal process. I am myself a vegetarian, and I understand that it's not a normal way to eat. But it's not unhealthy and doesn't bug me or those around me.

Anyway, there is a line out there some there. Some popel cross it, some don't. But when people have severly restricted diets on top of severly restricted diets, it makes me suspect that they might be a little wacky.

[brickbacon]

Anyone who eats a severly restricted diet based on some other thing than preferences/health has some degree of an eating disorder. If you have developed a lot of blanket rules about what you eat and do not factor in rational exceptions, that is not a normal process. I am myself a vegetarian, and I understand that it's not a normal way to eat. But it's not unhealthy and doesn't bug me or those around me.

Anyway, there is a line out there some there. Some popel cross it, some don't. But when people have severly restricted diets on top of severly restricted diets, it makes me suspect that they might be a little wacky.

Word.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Anyone who eats a severly restricted diet based on some other thing than preferences/health has some degree of an eating disorder.
What bizarre definition of "disorder" are you using? Certainly you're not calling it an ailment, are you? And clearly folks who restrict their diet are MORE ordered than those who don't, so you're not using it in the sense of a lack of order.

Who gives a shit if it's not normal? I despise the modern Glossy Magazine, Quiz Yourself On Your Fingernail Clipping Habits, Are You Attractive? Find Out If Your Child Is Exactly On Track For Being Toilet Trained mentality that thinks anything not normal is a disorder.

Geez. I wanted to give you a chance to clarify yourself, but I think I'm with Otto. Calling voluntary eating restrictions a "disorder" is pop psychology of the worst sort.

Daniel

[Otto]

Anyone who eats a severly restricted diet based on some other thing than preferences/health has some degree of an eating disorder.
So if I don't eat veal because I don't like the taste I'm normal but if I don't eat veal because it's derived from calves who suffer their entire lives from being chained up in little boxes I have an eating disorder? Are you, in fact, high?

Could you please do me a personal favor and never, ever purport to speak on the topic of vegetarianism again in your entire life? I have enough trouble explaining it without nutters like you out there falsely claiming that it's an eating disorder. Just shut up.

[Manda JO]

Off topic, but related: does anyone know of a good site/book that discusses how to eat Vegan in a healthy manner? I have a student who, after several years of being vegitarian, started a vegan diet about 3 months ago. He's losing weight, and it scares me, because he's 5'3", only about 100 pounds, still growing (he's 15), and reasonably active--he's on the school swim team and walks alot. He's not getting any guidance at home. I looked for a book, but there were 10000 books on losing weight but that's not what he needs. He needs to be sure he's getting ENOUGH fat and carbs and proteins.

I'm not the only teacher that's noticed he's become more lethargic, and we HAVE talked to his mother, but she's unconcerned. He's a smart kid and a good reader, but I have no idea what sites to point him to or what book I could buy him. I suspect that extreme dietary concern (a call it a disorder or whatever, he's super empathic and terrified of dying, both of which are reasons to worry about what you eat) is something he will always show, and if that's the case, at least want him to do so in an educated manner. What's reputable?

[EddyTeddyFreddy]

Off topic, but related: does anyone know of a good site/book that discusses how to eat Vegan in a healthy manner? I came across this webpage (http://www.cancerrd.com/FAQs/FAQ64.htm). It's discussing vegetarian diets to aid in cancer recovery but makes some excellent points about achieving complete nutrition on such a diet. Might be a good place to start, anyway.

[alice_in_wonderland]

Are you, in fact, high?

I was thinking the same thing.

Here I thought that not eating goose liver because the geese are force fed grains through a funnel was not that odd. Now it turns out that I'm a total nut bar. Good to know. Good to know.

[lezlers]

Her veganism could account for most other restrictions.

Hell no, it wouldn't. Vegans eat flour. We eat everything but meat and dairy. Whackjobs like this chick give us a bad name.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Off topic, but related: does anyone know of a good site/book that discusses how to eat Vegan in a healthy manner?
Sure do: This web page is from the American Dietetic Association (http://www.vegetariannutrition.net/vn_articles/vegan_children.htm), about as reputable a group as you can get. A couple points.

First, even sven, I'm looking straight at you and squinting meaningfully when they say:
Many teens (ages 13 to 19) adopt a vegan diet because they view the use of animals for food to be against their moral beliefs.
...
data suggest that adopting a vegetarian diet does not lead to eating disorders (11).
Squinting. Meaningfully.

Second, check out this section, Manda Jo:
Caloric intake

Adequate caloric intake is essential to the growth of all children. The diet must have sufficient caloric density so that the child does not feel full before calories needs are met. To reduce bulk some refined grains can replace servings of whole grains; dried and cooked fruits can be substituted for some fresh fruits and vegetables. High fat foods should not be overly restricted. Foods such as seeds, nuts, and nut butters provide a concentrated source of calories as well as necessary minerals and protein. High fat foods such as ground flax seed and various vegetable oils aid in adequate caloric intake as well.

Protein
If caloric intake is adequate and the child is not eating an excessive amount of empty calorie foods, protein intake most likely will be adequate. The frequency of meals in a young child’s diet greatly assists in providing a variety of amino acids to be available for protein synthesis throughout the day. Legumes, grains, soy products, meat analogues, nut butters, dairy products, and eggs are all concentrated protein sources. Vegetarian children may get a significant amount of their protein requirement from grains and vegetables simply because of the large number of servings eaten per day.

So, high-fat foods are okay within reason; protein should not be an issue.

In addition:
Vegan sources of calcium for children include breastmilk, calcium-fortified juices and cereals; calcium-fortified soy and rice beverages; low oxalate vegetables like collard greens and bok choy; and blackstrap molasses. In addition, baked goods made with fortified vegetable milks can contribute significant amounts of calcium to the diet of children.
...
Vitamin D
In the southern US, sunshine can be an adequate source of vitamin D year-round.
...
Iron

Iron deficiency anemia is the most common childhood nutritional problem. While meat contains heme iron that is better absorbed than the non-heme iron found in plant foods, iron deficiency anemia is no more likely to occur in vegetarian than non-vegetarian children (1). Good iron sources include whole or enriched grains and grain products, iron-fortified cereals, legumes, and green leafy vegetables. Consuming foods rich in vitamin C at the same meal enhances non-heme iron absorption.

Another big concern, and mostly unfounded.

That said, I tried going vegan twice as a teenager, and each time, I had to abandon the project after a few days, when I started feeling literally faint (i.e., I found myself staggering). The second time, I thought I was paying very close attention to my diet, and the same thing still happened.

In his case, it may be worth finding out what he's eating: is he eating mainly french fries and sodas? If so, that could contribute to a protein/iron deficiency. Is he focusing on one food group to the exclusion of others? Again, that could be a problem.

However, it may also be that he's perfectly fine, and that you just associate a healthful look with the ruddy glow that comes from eating lots of beef. I know in college, I had professors who talked contemptuously about the wan, scrawny vegan students; but when I asked them for details, they had to admit that they'd never seen any sign that the vegans were any less healthy than the burgerchompers. Have you asked him how he's feeling?

Daniel

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Hell no, it wouldn't. Vegans eat flour.
Gosh, it's funny that you quoted that sentence to disagree with, because surely you saw the sentence that appeared before it:

She could have (or suffer from the delusion that she has) celiac disease, which would mean that flour is out.(emphasis added).

And surely you saw the sentence that followed it:
But the salt thing is pretty bizarre.
So, given these two sentences that sandwiched the one with which you disagreed, which of her food restrictions are left unexplained?

Here's the list again: meat, gluten, flour, salt, butter, cheese, eggs, baked goods. Keep in mind that gluten and baked goods generally are related to flour.

Daniel

[lezlers]

A friend told me sugar can be out for some vegans and even "regular" vegetarians because of the bleaching process. She said it uses bonemeal somehow. Maybe that's why fruits are in and "sugar" is out?

I don't actually know about this, but that's what I was told when I was trying to figure out how to make vegan brownies. She also said that sometimes chocolate is not vegan, from what she understands. However, neither of us is vegetarian of any stripe, much less vegan, so this could be incorrect.

Does anyone know about chocoalte and sugar being not vegan?

Either way, it sounds like she needs a different social outlet.

Dude, I have the best vegan brownie recipie. My meat eating S.O. begs me to make them regularly. I bring them to dinner parties all the time, and there's never been a single one left on the tray. No one ever guesses they're vegan.

The secret? Use blended silken tofu instead of eggs (it's a binder and has no flavor), then use cocoa powder and chocolate chips. My email is in my profile if you want the actual recipe.

Actually, blended silken tofu can be used instead of eggs in any recipe that's calling for eggs as a binder. You know, if you're ever cooking for a vegan. ;)

[Guinastasia]

So if I don't eat veal because I don't like the taste I'm normal but if I don't eat veal because it's derived from calves who suffer their entire lives from being chained up in little boxes I have an eating disorder? Are you, in fact, high?

Could you please do me a personal favor and never, ever purport to speak on the topic of vegetarianism again in your entire life? I have enough trouble explaining it without nutters like you out there falsely claiming that it's an eating disorder. Just shut up.


Yeah, what about all those Jews-massive eating disorder right there!

:dubious:

[lezlers]

Gosh, it's funny that you quoted that sentence to disagree with, because surely you saw the sentence that appeared before it:

(emphasis added).

And surely you saw the sentence that followed it:

So, given these two sentences that sandwiched the one with which you disagreed, which of her food restrictions are left unexplained?

Here's the list again: meat, gluten, flour, salt, butter, cheese, eggs, baked goods. Keep in mind that gluten and baked goods generally are related to flour.

Daniel

Sorry, I was scanning. Obviously not very closely. My bad, didn't mean to offend. I tend to react quickly when I think someone is grossly misrepresenting veganism. I'll read more carefully next time.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

If we're giving Vegan recipes, I won't give mine because I don't have a copy. But it's in Cooking with Tofu, a cookbook published by The Farm (the hippie commune my parents used to live on). It has six ingredients:
-Tofu
-Water
-Oil
-Sugar
-Lemon Juice
-Vanilla
in quantities I don't remember. You blend it up and bake it like a cheesecake in a graham cracker crust.

The flavor is different from a regular cheesecake, and the texture is different, too; but neither difference is unpleasant, and it's so much lighter than a regular cheesecake that you can eat more of it. With a fruit topping, it's really amazingly good, and is the only vegan dessert that I'll still make.

Daniel

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Sorry, I was scanning. Obviously not very closely. My bad, didn't mean to offend. I tend to react quickly when I think someone is grossly misrepresenting veganism. I'll read more carefully next time.
:D No problem, and sorry for my snarky reaction, too. Given my response to even sven, I can't blame others for their irritability when folks appear to be insulting those of us with pathological eating disorders.

Daniel

[even sven]

Oh come on! Kosher=OK. Vegetarian=OK. Atkins=OK. Low fat=OK. No soy=OK Low fat kosher soy-free vegetarian Atkins=probably a weirdo.

[Guinastasia]

Oh come on! Kosher=OK. Vegetarian=OK. Atkins=OK. Low fat=OK. No soy=OK Low fat kosher soy-free vegetarian Atkins=probably a weirdo.


Well, no shit. But you said:


but since veganism (and vegetarianism, for that matter) is a bit of an eating disorder on it's own,

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Oh come on! Kosher=OK. Vegetarian=OK. Atkins=OK. Low fat=OK. No soy=OK Low fat kosher soy-free vegetarian Atkins=probably a weirdo.No, you come on yourself. "Disorder" is a medical term, and the medical people say that "adopting a vegetarian diet does not lead to eating disorders." You were talking out your ass in a stupid and offensive manner. A sheepish, "Oops, I was wrong," is your best bet now. Or, if you prefer, you could mulishly defend an idiotic position, backing into a corner for the next seven pages of a trainwreck thread, changing your position slightly each time and ignoring everyone who comes in to tell you how wrong you are.

It's your monkey, sven. Choose wisely.

Daniel

[DeadlyAccurate]

Dude, I have the best vegan brownie recipie. My meat eating S.O. begs me to make them regularly. I bring them to dinner parties all the time, and there's never been a single one left on the tray. No one ever guesses they're vegan.

The secret? Use blended silken tofu instead of eggs (it's a binder and has no flavor), then use cocoa powder and chocolate chips. My email is in my profile if you want the actual recipe.

Actually, blended silken tofu can be used instead of eggs in any recipe that's calling for eggs as a binder. You know, if you're ever cooking for a vegan. ;)

I tried to email you, but the email came back. I would like the recipe.

[BlueKangaroo]

lezlers, I've tried to send you a couple of e-mails, but they both bounced. Could you e-mail me the recipe? Or, if you'd prefer, one of us can start a cafe thread, then we can both harass LHoD until he posts that vegan cheesecake recipe....


;)

[BlueKangaroo]

And with DeadlyAccurate's request, I've just made that thread. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6766003#post6766003)

lezlers and LHoD, I eagerly await your recipes!

[Mama Tiger]

With apologies to BlueKangaroo, that link should be:

that thread. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6766003#post6766003)

Amazing what one missing letter can do.

Just out of curiosity, lezlers, if the brownies are made with chocolate chips, how does that get around the issue that chocolate has dairy products in it?

[BlueKangaroo]

Thanks, Mama Tiger. That's what I get for using quick reply for anything more complicatied than bold.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Just out of curiosity, lezlers, if the brownies are made with chocolate chips, how does that get around the issue that chocolate has dairy products in it?
Most bittersweet and semisweet chocolate is nondairy; as long as you're either willing to put up with cowbonified sugar or nasty waxlike Vegan chocolate chips, you're in the clear.

Daniel

[Manda JO]

Sure do: This web page is from the American Dietetic Association (http://www.vegetariannutrition.net/vn_articles/vegan_children.htm), about as reputable a group as you can get.

Thanks.

In his case, it may be worth finding out what he's eating: is he eating mainly french fries and sodas? If so, that could contribute to a protein/iron deficiency.

I think he's mostly eating fruits and vegtables: I am really less worried about his protien intake and more worried about his fat/carb intake. He doesn't eat junk, ever, and he's presumably going to be starting a major growth spurt any day now (he's hte age for it, and hasn't had one yet)

However, it may also be that he's perfectly fine, and that you just associate a healthful look with the ruddy glow that comes from eating lots of beef. I know in college, I had professors who talked contemptuously about the wan, scrawny vegan students; but when I asked them for details, they had to admit that they'd never seen any sign that the vegans were any less healthy than the burgerchompers. Have you asked him how he's feeling?

He's my little pet: he lives in my room--he isn't really even technically my student, just a friend to the kids I've got. (I teach juniors, he's a sophmore, and good friends with a bunch of the now-seniors I taught last year). So we've talked a great deal about how he feels. He knows my concerns, though I've never tried to talk him out of the vegan thing. I don't want him to stop it, I just want him to be smart about it. His grades are dropping and he looks tired a lot. This has been remarked on by several people that don't know about hte vegan thing--he keeps very quiet about that. And like I said, I am not looking for hte "rudy glow" of meat eaters: he hasn't eaten meat in years, since well before I knew him. It's the vegan thing htat is new, and is the thing that concerns me.

Thanks for the link, though. I will forward it to him.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

I think he's mostly eating fruits and vegtables: I am really less worried about his protien intake and more worried about his fat/carb intake. He doesn't eat junk, ever, and he's presumably going to be starting a major growth spurt any day now (he's hte age for it, and hasn't had one yet).
Hmm. Obviously I am not a dietitian, but I think that one of my problems when I tried to go vegan was simply that I didn't get enough calories. Is it possible that he's going ultra-low-fat as well, and is starving himself?

It might be interesting to get him to keep a food calendar and figure out what his caloric intake is, and then compare that to what it should be. Or you could just keep a jar of peanut butter and some vegan crackers in the classroom :).

Good luck--it sounds like you're doing right by him!

Daniel

[Apricot]

I added my recipes to the other thead:

I don't think veganism is a disorder, but I DO think some people with eating disorders use veganism as a cover story. I say this as someone in recovery from anorexia and having met many others in treatment. Group therapy is a great place to learn new methods of not eating.

[Johanna]

I'm vegan, but not especially strict about it. Left to myself, I happily supply myself with delicious, nutritious vegan fare every day, and no one is the wiser. If I go out to a restaurant or something with friends, and the only vegetarian items on the menu are cheese-laden, I'll go with that because it isn't a big deal. For some reason it's next to impossible to find vegan pizza and Mexican. I don't care. My lacto-ovo lapses are infrequent, and I hate getting all ideological about something that doesn't matter very much. I'm older and mellower now, and my earnestly ideological youth is behind me.

[kanicbird]

Her email seems to be stating something about herself, it does not appear to be requesting that you change what you plan to cook. I think the only requirement is for you to inform her if your dish may contain one or more of the above ingrediants so she may choose not to eat any of it.

Sugar in the Raw, which comes in a brown paper package, is the solution to that problem, or that plant that is sweet that I forgot the name of.

Stevia is that plant.

My understanding is 'Sugar in the Raw' is the same white sugar w/ some molassas poured on to it.

As for it being a semi eating disorder, I never considered it that way, but it sort of makes some sense, especially when you have to consider the lengths they must go throught to get a vegan diet to fill your nutritional needs. Sort of a OCD comes to mind.

The in your face veagans might display tendancies of ODD.

But in either case the disorder might be the issue that leads to the veganism, rather then the other way around, or unrelated.

[liberty3701]

I'm vegan, but not especially strict about it. Left to myself, I happily supply myself with delicious, nutritious vegan fare every day, and no one is the wiser. If I go out to a restaurant or something with friends, and the only vegetarian items on the menu are cheese-laden, I'll go with that because it isn't a big deal. For some reason it's next to impossible to find vegan pizza and Mexican. I don't care. My lacto-ovo lapses are infrequent, and I hate getting all ideological about something that doesn't matter very much. I'm older and mellower now, and my earnestly ideological youth is behind me.
Same here. I could be 100% vegan when I lived in SoCal with a bunch of vegan friends and delicious asian and vegetarian restaurants. Here in North Carolina (NoCar?), I'm lucky if there's even anything vegetarian on the menu. I get stuck a lot eating a side of fries...

[BlueKangaroo]

My understanding is 'Sugar in the Raw' is the same white sugar w/ some molassas poured on to it.

I think that's brown sugar, which is why we can get light and dark types.

[lezlers]

With apologies to BlueKangaroo, that link should be:

that thread. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6766003#post6766003)

Amazing what one missing letter can do.

Just out of curiosity, lezlers, if the brownies are made with chocolate chips, how does that get around the issue that chocolate has dairy products in it?

I'm going over there right now to post the recipes. I also changed my email in my profile, it was my old one, sorry.

And I use semi-sweet chocolate chips. I'm not all crazy hardcore vegan, I still do granulated sugar and honey and stuff. Other vegans may differ in how far they go with it. You can call me a low-level vegan if you wish. After almost nine years, you tend to loosen up about some stuff. :cool:

[aruvqan]

Here's the list again: meat, gluten, flour, salt, butter, cheese, eggs, baked goods. Keep in mind that gluten and baked goods generally are related to flour.

Daniel
You forgot yeast =)

Hm. OK - vegan loses meat, dairy. Many baked goods have whey and other dairy byproducts in it, so they can be out unless made from scratch with yeast, flour, a smidge of a sugar, salt possibly an oil and water...Also some extreme vegans see yeast as an animal not a plant ... *sigh*

Celiac loses gluten and *certain* flours. IIRC celiacs can still use corn, rice, nut based and legume based flours [chickpea, mung] Frequently commercial preparations use wheat or other glutenous bearing plants as thickeners - but you can still use stuff like guar or psyllium to thicken with.

Salt - many cardio and kidney problem sufferers avoid added salt. This lets out soy, tamari, commercially prepared foods of many types. To be blunt about it, most salt processing happens to involve liquifying it, filtering out any solids that dont liquify, and then evaporating the water - sometimes certain chemicals are added to help impurities precipitate out - frequently egg white based or gelatin based. Both are no-nos for vegans.

Yeast itself - there is a health regimine for chronic yeast infection sufferers that precludes 'fermented' foods from breads, cheeses, vinegars, pickles and the like.

Some people are now following some sort of odd pH diet, where a lot of stuff is chopped out and they drink green glop stirred into water...I have a friend doing that. Some recipes are tasty, but on the whole I like my pH where it is...

[Otto]

As for it being a semi eating disorder, I never considered it that way, but it sort of makes some sense, especially when you have to consider the lengths they must go throught to get a vegan diet to fill your nutritional needs.
No, no, it actually makes no sense whatsoever. Maintaining a vegan diet really doesn't require all that much effort, unless you consider reading labels to be some great effort.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

You forgot yeast =)
:confused: I may be whooshed here, but I just copied her list from the OP; yeast wasn't on it. What do you mean?

Daniel

[lezlers]

As for it being a semi eating disorder, I never considered it that way, but it sort of makes some sense, especially when you have to consider the lengths they must go throught to get a vegan diet to fill your nutritional needs. Sort of a OCD comes to mind.

Unless you're eating nothing but chips and french fries, it's really not that hard. You actually have to make an effort not to get enough protein (almost everything has protein in it) the only thing that I've ever had to pay attention to was my B-12 intake and on occasion I've had some issues with my iron intake. Both of which can be easily fixed by taking a multi-vitamin.

I'm not going to get into the whole "a vegan diet can actually be healthier than a meat eating diet" debate, but I do have to take exception to the sterotype that we're all these sickly, starving shadows of people, or that we have to put hours into planning every meal. Just ask this extra 20 pounds I carry around with me every day and the 5 to 10 minutes of thought I put into every meal... ;)

[aruvqan]

:confused: I may be whooshed here, but I just copied her list from the OP; yeast wasn't on it. What do you mean?

Daniel

Well, someone mentioned yeasst=) guess it wasnt the OP ... oops=)

[aruvqan]

I'm not going to get into the whole "a vegan diet can actually be healthier than a meat eating diet" debate, but I do have to take exception to the sterotype that we're all these sickly, starving shadows of people, or that we have to put hours into planning every meal. Just ask this extra 20 pounds I carry around with me every day and the 5 to 10 minutes of thought I put into every meal... ;)

Heck, as a rampant carnivore, I can manage a lacto-ovo meal with minimal thought and with a little bit of though can come up with a very vegan meal, or almost any really restricted regime fairly easily - though i wouldnt want to have a go at macrobiotics, no brown rice in th house...

I frequently can eat a vegan meal, i happen to really like tofu=) and though I havent found them locally for a while tofu scrambler is great as ithas a really good flavor profile and sometimes i forget to have mrAru buy eggs=)

[Ferret Herder]

Celiac loses gluten and *certain* flours. IIRC celiacs can still use corn, rice, nut based and legume based flours [chickpea, mung] Frequently commercial preparations use wheat or other glutenous bearing plants as thickeners - but you can still use stuff like guar or psyllium to thicken with.
Those with celiac disease have to avoid wheat, oats, barley, and rye, and anything made from them. I had a boss whose daughter had celiac disease, then came down with juvenile diabetes so she really had to watch what she ate. To top it off, she then started getting interested in vegetarianism. I thought he was going to keel over when he learned that.

[cwthree]

I can help!

cwPartner has celiac disease (no wheat or other gluten-bearing products) and likes to stick to a kosher vegetarian diet. Oh, and he fancies himself unusually sensitive to salt, so he likes to avoid added salt. We eat a lot of curry-type dishes, most of which go like this:

Fry up some onions and garlic in the vegetable oil of your choice.
Add appropriate dry spices (turmeric, cumin, coriander seed, cayenne or chilli powder - let's hope your challenging dinner companion has nothing against strong seasonings). Stir them around to bring up the aroma.
Add chopped up potatoes, winter squash (butternut, buttercup, hubbard, acorn, etc.), turnips, parsnips, carrots, or other nice, hard vegetables. Stir this around until the vegetables are coated with the onions, garlic, and spices.
Add a couple of cups of the cooked beans of your choice. We like chickpeas.
Add a bit of liquid - water, unsalted vegetable broth, tomato puree, etc. You want enough of this to keep the vegetables from burning.
Let the whole thing simmer until the vegetables are tender.
Serve and eat.

Reasonably easy, tasty, easily adapted to your choice of flavorings.

Offer a fruit salad for dessert.

[Hey, It's That Guy!]

Yeah, what about all those Jews-massive eating disorder right there!

:dubious:

What makes you say that? Our chopped liver? Lox and bagels? Maybe all the Chinese food we eat?

[parthenokinesis]

As it turns out most vegans do not eat steaks prepared medium-rare, so while it may not be an eating disorder, it is certainly unsophisticated.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

As it turns out most vegans do not eat steaks prepared medium-rare, so while it may not be an eating disorder, it is certainly unsophisticated.
Are you kidding me? Vegans like their steaks to still be mooing!
Daniel

[Stonebow]

Silly question, but as there are so many vegetarians and vegans in this thread, I thought I'd ask.

Are there very many veggie Epicureans out there? You know, people that love to cook and eat, who are very hedonistic in their food experience? As an avowed omnivore, I confess that i have a hard time reconciling the dietary restrictions we've discussed and someone truly enjoying food.

[Otto]

What we lack in flavor we make up for in moral superiority.

No, actually, I enjoy food just fine. There are just things that you consider "food" that I don't. Like animals.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Are there very many veggie Epicureans out there?
There sure are: I'll try later to get you a sampling of restaurants that qualify, but definitely there are vegetarians who loooove their food. I'm one of them. While I don't go buying $200 truffles for breakfast, cooking is one of my great pleasures in life, and I'm reasonably good at it.

Daniel

[Ferret Herder]

Are there very many veggie Epicureans out there? You know, people that love to cook and eat, who are very hedonistic in their food experience? As an avowed omnivore, I confess that i have a hard time reconciling the dietary restrictions we've discussed and someone truly enjoying food.
Me, and my becoming ovo-lacto vegetarian helped make me into the epicure that I am. In college, when my housemates were making the college basics, I found that I had a lot more variety in what I could eat if I branched out beyond the traditional American standards - minus the meat. (An issue of Saveur Magazine in the last year or two compared today's American kitchens with those of a decade ago, showing how many cuisines and ingredients we take for granted today were extremely rare back then. My husband remarked that I was cooking that way a decade ago and earlier.) I got vegetarian - and omnivore, I still cook meat for people - cookbooks that covered cuisines from around the world. I grabbed obscure ingredients in food co-ops, Asian supermarkets, and the farmer's market. I bought spices by the ounce cheaply to make a spice rack that would just astonish visitors, and could name dishes that each was used in - my roommates once tried to stump me, being dubious that I actually used all of them. I hosted dinner parties for friends and wowed people. I hand-made things like samosas, wontons, and croissants while my roommates made mac-n-cheese and endless variations on sauteed chicken breasts.

I cook using sense memory of various foods that I no longer eat, running recipes through my head to determine what they might taste like, and supplement that with smelling the food during the cooking process to adjust the seasonings - it's rare that I ask my husband to taste something for seasoning, and even rarer that it requires adjustment. I regularly break a "cardinal rule" of cooking that says you should cook a recipe exactly by the book once before tampering with it. I have at least 50 cookbooks in my kitchen bookrack, and that's after weeding a fair number out, plus I also pick up cooking magazines faster than I can read them if I don't watch out.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

I'm not thinking clearly enough to find a good list of vegetarian-only fine dining restaurants. I know Asheville has the excellent Laughing Seed (http://www.laughingseed.com/index.php?page=1&clicked=hdhome) (their East-West Quesadillas are a personal favorite). New York has The Zen Palate (http://www.zenpalate.com/menu.php). Olympia's Urban Onion (http://www.naturalchoice.net/review/urban.htm) is semi-vegetarian. And there are many more places that do fancy vegetarian stuff in addition to their other fancy menus.

I'm learning now to make good vegetarian green curry. The secrets seem to include using full-fat coconut milk, among other things.

Daniel

[Spectre of Pithecanthropus]

Some chocolate contains wheat. Not to mention dairy, if it's milk chocolate. That obviously wouldn't be vegan.

[Bippy the Beardless]

You could try giving her some of this http://www.vnews.com/07032005/2445803.htm

For sugar, get hold of Indian Jaggery. It is worth having even for non-vegans as it adds a ritcher flavour than refined brown sugar.

[mischievous]

Yeast itself - there is a health regimine for chronic yeast infection sufferers that precludes 'fermented' foods from breads, cheeses, vinegars, pickles and the like.I'm not saying you're wrong, but how does that make any sense at all? Baker's yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae) is totally unrelated to Candida, the group that causes infections. I'm confused (or they are).

mischievous

[Go You Big Red Fire Engine]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but how does that make any sense at all? Baker's yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae) is totally unrelated to Candida, the group that causes infections. I'm confused (or they are).

mischievous
Vinegar, cheeses and pickles contain no yeast. I think it has something to do with other elements of the food related to fermentation. However, since fermentation is waste products built up by organisms, I can't see how this would help and invading parasite.

I've heard of this though, too.

[Muffin]

Silly question, but as there are so many vegetarians and vegans in this thread, I thought I'd ask.

Are there very many veggie Epicureans out there? You know, people that love to cook and eat, who are very hedonistic in their food experience? As an avowed omnivore, I confess that i have a hard time reconciling the dietary restrictions we've discussed and someone truly enjoying food.
Yes, I dated one for a few years. She was a vegan chef who ran her own catering business. We would travel a day in any direction for a good restaurant, and dining usually included a tour of the kitchen and lots of chatting with the restaurant's chef. It was a lot of fun. Since most restaurants don't prepare vegan food (other than salads), she would usually speak to them in advance to insure that they had somehing for her. She would usually give them a recipe or two after dinner.

[aruvqan]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but how does that make any sense at all? Baker's yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae) is totally unrelated to Candida, the group that causes infections. I'm confused (or they are).

mischievous


heh ... we are talking a food fad here m'kay? you expect it to be reasonable?

This (http://chetday.com/candida.html) is more or less the original concept - note that a little way down he calls avoiding yeast in general an old wives tale ...

This (http://www.nutritioninstitute.com/yeast_info.html) person takes it even further by recommending avoidance of vinegars/malts and foods that are 'antibacterial' [don't ask me, i am just reporting what is out there]

yet another site (http://www.womentowomen.com/LIBsystemicyeast.asp)

To put it simplistically, yesat crowds out bacteria, making it easier for yeast to grow - hence if you eat bread, you are providing a carbohydrate that will up your blood sugar, which in the absense of proper bacteria allows candida to grow ... and we all know the propensity of people to read one little detail and add to their exercise regimine by jumping to conclusions ...

Hey, I was somehow subscribed to a raw foods mailing list for a year, it is amazing what they would post about - sort of like a train wreck, I couldnmt figure out how to unsub since i never subbed ...but it was infinitely amusing. I think it folded because one day i just stopped getting the mailings.