Was French ever really the "language of diplomacy?'

[handsomeharry]

Was French ever really the language of diplomacy? If so was it before or after the Congress of Vienna? If after was it due to Talleyrand's coup?
thanks,
hh

[Schnitte]

It was both before and after the Congress of Vienna. Due to France's very dominant role in politics on the European continent in the 18th century, it became the prevalent language in international diplomacy and kept this status until after WWI at least, when English became #1.

Relics of this are still visible. French is a very important language in discussions and literature about international public law and is the dominant language in European Community law.

[astro]

Was French ever really the language of diplomacy? If so was it before or after the Congress of Vienna? If after was it due to Talleyrand's coup?
thanks,
hh


role of the French and the English languages in diplomacy. (http://www.nakedtranslations.com/en/2004/05/000146.php)

couple of weeks ago on Word of Mouth (Radio 4), there was a very interesting piece about the role of the French and the English languages in diplomacy.

French was widely used in international diplomacy for two main reasons: first, because France used to be a huge political power. It was commonly used in the whole of Europe from the 18th century, with the reign of Louis XIV. Later, Napoleon "helped" the language spread even further. The use of French in international treaties started declining with the emergence of the USA after the First World War; in fact, the Treaty of Versailles was written both in English and in French.

The second main reason is that it is the language of clarity and precision: it uses a lot more determiners, adverbs, conjunctions and the like to link parts of sentences together and clarify their relationships. This links very well with the "foisonnement" (expansion) phenomenon in translation from English to French, with the French translation being on average 15% longer than the source text. Conversely, English is more likely to create ambiguity and its concision can be seen as bluntness, which was described in the programme as "the enemy of polite discourse". Nowadays, despite the French language losing much of its prestige, the English diplomatic vocabulary is still haunted by a few French ghosts, here and there: regime, coup, etiquette, rapprochement. I suspect these words are still in use only because they don't have equivalents in English.

[Rodgers01]

Nowadays, despite the French language losing much of its prestige, the English diplomatic vocabulary is still haunted by a few French ghosts, here and there: regime, coup, etiquette, rapprochement. I suspect these words are still in use only because they don't have equivalents in English.

[slight hijack]

Except, of course, that those words are (now) bona fide English words...of French origin (just like a huge percentage of our regular vocabulary). So no need to look for "English" equivalents.

[/hijack]

[Spectre of Pithecanthropus]

God, yes, absolutely.

You have to remember that through most of the 19th century France was a top rival to the British empire, the greatest political and military force of the era. It built a world empire including vast territories in Africa which were freed up only in the 1960s. When the UN was founded, French was made one of its five languages of official communication, no doubt as a result of the country's importance as a world power territorially speaking, and of its historical importance. On the other hand, that decision may have been a bit out of proportion with France's condition at the time, and inconsistant which the fact that the age of territorial empires was on the wane.

[ombre3]

God, yes, absolutely.

You have to remember that through most of the 19th century France was a top rival to the British empire, the greatest political and military force of the era. It built a world empire including vast territories in Africa which were freed up only in the 1960s. When the UN was founded, French was made one of its five languages of official communication, no doubt as a result of the country's importance as a world power territorially speaking, and of its historical importance. On the other hand, that decision may have been a bit out of proportion with France's condition at the time, and inconsistant which the fact that the age of territorial empires was on the wane.

True about England too. A dinky little island of no importance whatsoever these days.

At least the Frenchies aren't lackies of the good old US of A.

[Clock]

True about England too. A dinky little island of no importance whatsoever these days.

At least the Frenchies aren't lackies of the good old US of A.

England isn't an island................Great Britain is!! :wally

[VegaBean]

By that logic, neither is Ireland. Or Haiti.

[JRDelirious]

By that logic, neither is Ireland. Or Haiti.
Indeed, Haiti isn't. Neither is the Republic of Ireland. They are located IN islands.

But in any case, back to OP, indeed French as the international language of Western politics does date back to the period of the last few Louis when France was THE hegemonic power of Continental Europe, and was reinforced by Napoleon. Also recall that even after N's fall, such things as the metric system and the Civil Law Code became widely adopted throughout the West, reinforcing French influence.

[guizot]

And of course it's in a U.S. passport.

[alphaboi867]

And of course it's in a U.S. passport.
Isn't it one all passports?

[ombre3]

England isn't an island................Great Britain is!! :wally

True enough. But GREAT Britain is an oxymoron these days.

[slaphead]

Isn't it one all passports?
No. Mine for instance is in Norwegian and English only.

[Nava]

When Catherine of Aragon got to England, one thing that stumped her and her accompanying ladies was that those barbarians didn't speak decently either French or Latin.

None of them had expected Spanish, but geez...

And of course, none of the ladies spoke English.

[aldiboronti]

True enough. But GREAT Britain is an oxymoron these days.

The term is, of course, purely geographic and always has been. As Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain) puts it:

....... the island of Great Britain was referred to as Britannia maior ("Greater Britain"), to distinguish it from Britannia minor ("Lesser Britain"), the Gaulish region which approximates to modern Brittany. The term "Bretayne the grete" was used by chroniclers as early as 1338, but it was not used officially until King James I proclaimed himself "King of Great Britain" on 20 October 1604 to avoid the more cumbersome title "King of England and Scotland".

[Clock]

True enough. But GREAT Britain is an oxymoron these days.


I guess a bit like the GOOD old U S of A :rolleyes:

[Tristan]

I guess a bit like the GOOD old U S of A :rolleyes:
True about England too. A dinky little island of no importance whatsoever these days.

At least the Frenchies aren't lackies of the good old US of A.

Maybe if we could keep the politics out of this, we could all pat ourselves on the back in whatever language we wish.

Somehow, I doubt it, but I had to try.

Being a history major, I find this incredibly interesting. I've been tracking the interesting phenomenon of a vast number of peoples/nations that use a totally different language for political purposes.

Seems to be a common thread throughout European history.

[clairobscur]

The second main reason is that it is the language of clarity and precision: it uses a lot more determiners, adverbs, conjunctions and the like to link parts of sentences together and clarify their relationships.


Just to mention that a famous example of this is the UN resolution that used a deliberatly ambiguous wording to urge Israel to withdraw from occupied territories, and by omitting the definite article didn't specify whether it was referencing to all, or only to part, of the occupied territories, leading to unending arguments about its meaning (once again, it was written this way on purpose). It's impossible to keep this ambiguity in french, an article being necessary (either "des", which would have meant "all of the territories" or "de" which would have meant "part of the territories").

(For the record, the french version of the resolution, which isn't authoritative, clearly refers to all occupied territories).

It's indeed clearly much easier to write an ambiguous sentence in english than in french.

[Slithy Tove]

And why is "lingua Franca" an Italian prase?

On the same note, "Swahili", although it's the (mainly Bantu) lingua Franca of Africa, is an Arabic word for "Coastal."

You'd think that any self-respecting lingua Franca's name for itself would be in lingua Franca.

I sure don't know. I'm still working on why the writers of Star Trek chose the Turkish word for "Frank" (used for any Western European) as the name for a planet of greedy merchants.

[Clock]

Maybe if we could keep the politics out of this, we could all pat ourselves on the back in whatever language we wish.

Somehow, I doubt it, but I had to try.

Being a history major, I find this incredibly interesting. I've been tracking the interesting phenomenon of a vast number of peoples/nations that use a totally different language for political purposes.

Seems to be a common thread throughout European history.

Quite agree but hey I never started it I just felt as an Englishman and damn proud of it that I had to fight back.

Now then where were we?..........ah yes!
French may welll have been a language of diplomacy in years past but let's face it French as a language is as dead as the Dodo.
The only language worth knowing is English.........why?
'cos when we see a word we like we quite simply and without asking just adopt it into our own and before very long it is recognised as an English word despite its origin.
A bit naughty of us but that's what makes our language so bloody adaptable and great :cool:

[Scruloose]

Quite agree but hey I never started it I just felt as an Englishman and damn proud of it that I had to fight back.
What makes you think that ombre3 is an American?

[clairobscur]

[QUOTE=Slithy Tove]And why is "lingua Franca" an Italian prase? [/b]

Because "lingua franca", as far as I know, didnt refer to the french language but to some sort of pidgin.

[clairobscur]

And why is "lingua Franca" an Italian prase?

Because "lingua franca", as far as I know, didnt refer originally to the french language but to some sort of pidgin.

[Clock]

What makes you think that ombre3 is an American?

What makes you think that I think he is an American? :(

I never suggested he was, all I said was that I felt I had to fight back.

Now don't get me wrong, I have visited the USA many times, I have friends in Rhode Island, Michigan, Alabama and Maine.

In all my visits I have only ever met ONE American who was obnoxious but he was drunk so I guess that doesn't count........or does it? :dubious:

In short I like you guys, I like your country, I like your grub and I love the friendliness and openness of Americans which is something you don't find in abundance here in Merrie England, we tend to be a tad reserved around strangers.

Your beer sucks tho' especially that Sam Adams rubbish I had in Chicago :D

[Scruloose]

What makes you think that I think he is an American? :(
The fact that the target of your 'fighting back' was the 'GOOD old U S of A'. That much is obvious.

Perhaps your 'fighting back' should be aimed at the poster and/or their comments, not an entire country of which the poster may or may not be a citizen of. And perhaps another forum for that would be in order. Just saying.

[clairobscur]

Because "lingua franca", as far as I know, didnt refer originally to the french language but to some sort of pidgin.


After checking it out, the "lingua franca" was indeed a pidgin, mostly Italian mixed with various other languages from around the Mediterranean sea. So, it made sense for it to have an Italian name.

I've no clue why it was called "lingua franca", though.

[Giles]

I've no clue why it was called "lingua franca", though.
According to the Oxford English Dictionary, "lingua franca" means "Frankish tongue", i.e., the language of the Franks -- the Germanic people who invaded Gaul and renamed it France (just as the Germanic Angles invaded southern Britain and renamed it England).

[Clock]

The fact that the target of your 'fighting back' was the 'GOOD old U S of A'. That much is obvious.

Perhaps your 'fighting back' should be aimed at the poster and/or their comments, not an entire country of which the poster may or may not be a citizen of. And perhaps another forum for that would be in order. Just saying.

Read between the lines my friend........the initial post that sparked my fight back was posted by ombre3 wherein he described England as a dinky little island of no importance whatsoever.

Later he described GREAT Britain as being an oxymoron quite obviously being unaware that Great Britain refers to the Nation as a whole rather than, as he seems to think, Great as in powerful......we were once y'know!

[clairobscur]

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, "lingua franca" means "Frankish tongue", i.e., the language of the Franks -- the Germanic people who invaded Gaul and renamed it France (just as the Germanic Angles invaded southern Britain and renamed it England).


Hmmm...Which doesn't make much sense, given that the language was mostly based on Italian, was used by mediterranean traders, and long after the franks (and their language) had dissapeared.....


Any further explanation about this?

[slaphead]

Hmmm...Which doesn't make much sense, given that the language was mostly based on Italian, was used by mediterranean traders, and long after the franks (and their language) had dissapeared.....
Any further explanation about this?
As a stab in the dark, how about the 'Lingua Franca' being a retention from the Roman days, when it might have meant the pidgin used by traders dealing with the assorted barbarians around the Med? Pure speculation, but it seems reasonable.

Being a history major, I find this incredibly interesting. I've been tracking the interesting phenomenon of a vast number of peoples/nations that use a totally different language for political purposes.

Seems to be a common thread throughout European history.

I find it interesting too, but it's not really that mysterious, or a European phenomenon. Anywhere you have different communities with different languages you are going to need a common standard of communication. Very often that will be everyone's second language rather than their first. In early Europe, most of the elite knew some latin, so that was the standard. This was gradually replaced by French, which in turn is being replaced by English. In China, Mandarin has been the standard by which the various provinces can stay in touch for a very long time. That assumes people know a gramatically correct language which can be conveniently used for communication. Outside the elite, that's normally not true, so traders make up pidgin languages - not really suitable for elegant diplomatic communication, but good enough for day-to-day life.

The fact that everyone ascribes so much emotional and political baggage to these simple practicalities is just one of those things that makes me go :rolleyes:

You'd think that any self-respecting lingua Franca's name for itself would be in lingua Franca.
Well, given that pidgin languages are usually made up exclusively of words pinched from other languages, I don't see anything unusual with using a borrowed bit of italian/latin to describe it. It's not like these things are drawn up by a committee of linguists somewhere.

[astorian]

Was French ever really the language of diplomacy? If so was it before or after the Congress of Vienna? If after was it due to Talleyrand's coup?
thanks,
hh

Well, during the Enlightenment of the 18th century, French came to be seen as the center of intellectual and cultural activity, and numerous royals around Europe became boith Francophones and Francophiles. Frederick the Great of PRussia and Russia's Empress Catherine the GReat embrace all things French wholeheartedly, and French became the fashionable language in their courts.

So, even before the Congress of Vienna, you'd have found many/most of the leading royals and aristocrats around Europe speaking French. That made it a very PRACTICAL choice as the language of diplomacy.

[Drake Tungsten]

According to the American Heritage Dictionary as conveyed by dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=lingua%20franca), lingua franca is a mixture of primarily Italian with Provencal, French, Arabic, Greek, and Turkish thrown into the mix. It was the language of traders, thus ingua franca has come to mean a common language used to communicate between speakers of different languages.

This reminds me of the street language in Blade Runner that mixed English, Japanese, German, and Spanish.

[Rico]

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