Is There a Double Standard WRT Sex w/ Minors?

[Gangster Octopus]

In this well publicized story (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051122/ap_on_re_us/teacher_sex;_ylt=Agi_WCBoRXiSOu1ADU2voDIDW7oF;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl) a 25-year old teacher pleads guilty to two counts of "lewd and lascivious battery" and she gets house arrest and has to register as a sex offender.

I can't help think that if this was a 25-year old male teacher and a 14-year old girl then there would be a tremendous hue and cry across the land that the punishment was a mere slap on the wrist?

In fact, I know there are people who read the story and think, "Where were teachers like that when I was 14?"

Am I wrong about this? Or is there in fact a double standard? If so, why? Is it a reaonable distinction?

[What Exit?]

Yes, I think there is a double standard and yes I would think, "Where were teachers like that when I was 14?"

I can't reconcile the two. At age 14 this would have been a wonderful event. I am not sure a girl would feel much different but there is a very large double standard. I imagine even the father probably secretly thought, "Way to go kid, I glad he’s not gay". If it was his daughter, he would have been shopping for a good accurate weapon.

How do you reconcile the two different attitudes?

I apologize if my honesty disturbs anyone, I don’t think the opinions I express are that far from the normal.

Jim

[ombre3]

One of my high school buddies used to brag that at the age of 14 or so he was introduced to sex by a 26 year old teacher.

He was our hero. And she was our ideal, our fantasy.

There is a double standard. Men and women and boys and girls are different sexually.

DUH.

[jsgoddess]

There is a double standard. Men and women and boys and girls are different sexually.

DUH.

You quote the double standard as evidence for the logic of the double standard.

[What Exit?]

You quote the double standard as evidence for the logic of the double standard.
So jsgoddess what is your view on the double standard. I don't think it can be denied it exist.

Was the teachers punishment too light?
Should we work to correct the double standard?
Can we?

Jim

[Manda JO]

As a 28 year old teacher I will tell you that 14-17 year old boys are incredilbly easy to manipulate. Not that I want to have sex with them (ugh), but if I did I have no doubt that I could manipulate many of them into believing about anything I wanted to and seriously fuck with their heads. And I kinda think that the overwhelming odds are that anyone who actually wanted to have sex with 14-17 year old boys would be more attracted to the chance to fuck with their heads/manipulate them/control them than be actually attracted to their physical charms. And trust me when I say that in any group of teenagers there are some of both sexes who are so needy and naive that they can be so skillfully maniplated that consent is really not meaningful.

Put in another way, whether or not there is sexual abuse going on in a sexual relationship between an adult and a child, there is almost certainly emotional abuse going on, and that needs to be harshly prohibited/punished.

And for those of you that think you were too emotionally stable to have allowed your teacher to emotionally abuse you--you may well have been. So you'd never have been targeted by a sexually predatory teacher. The laws have to be there to protect the ones who are vunerable.

[ShibbOleth]

So jsgoddess what is your view on the double standard. I don't think it can be denied it exist.

Was the teachers punishment too light?
Should we work to correct the double standard?
Can we?

Jim

I think the teacher's punishment was too light. I find particularly absurd the defense contention that she's "too pretty, it would be dangerous for her in prison". Tough shit.

But mainly I think this sets a bad precedent. I don't doubt that this case will be trotted out every time a teacher acts like an idiot. I wish that they'd taken her to trial and meted out a very heavy sentence.

[Boo Boo Foo]

As a 28 year old teacher I will tell you that 14-17 year old boys are incredilbly easy to manipulate. Not that I want to have sex with them (ugh), but if I did I have no doubt that I could manipulate many of them into believing about anything I wanted to and seriously fuck with their heads. And I kinda think that the overwhelming odds are that anyone who actually wanted to have sex with 14-17 year old boys would be more attracted to the chance to fuck with their heads/manipulate them/control them than be actually attracted to their physical charms. And trust me when I say that in any group of teenagers there are some of both sexes who are so needy and naive that they can be so skillfully maniplated that consent is really not meaningful.

Put in another way, whether or not there is sexual abuse going on in a sexual relationship between an adult and a child, there is almost certainly emotional abuse going on, and that needs to be harshly prohibited/punished.

And for those of you that think you were too emotionally stable to have allowed your teacher to emotionally abuse you--you may well have been. So you'd never have been targeted by a sexually predatory teacher. The laws have to be there to protect the ones who are vunerable.That last paragraph there was incredibly insightful in my opinion. I don't think I've ever heard the matter laid out in it's separate logical constructs so impressively before.

[BrainGlutton]

What the take of psychologists on this? Does any psychologist support the position that it would psychologically damaging for a 14-year-old girl to lose her virginity to an adult man, but not damaging (or less damaging) for a 14-year-old boy to lose his virginity to an adult woman? (Or vice-versa?)

[Odesio]

Yes, there is a double standard. I also love this statement from the linked article in the OP.

Fitzgibbons said in July that plea negotiations had broken off because prosecutors insisted on prison time, which he said would be too dangerous for someone as attractive as Lafave.

I don't think I've ever heard that it was to dangerous to send a man to prison because he was too attractive.

Marc

[Polycarp]

As a 28 year old teacher I will tell you that 14-17 year old boys are incredilbly easy to manipulate. Not that I want to have sex with them (ugh), but if I did I have no doubt that I could manipulate many of them into believing about anything I wanted to and seriously fuck with their heads. And I kinda think that the overwhelming odds are that anyone who actually wanted to have sex with 14-17 year old boys would be more attracted to the chance to fuck with their heads/manipulate them/control them than be actually attracted to their physical charms. And trust me when I say that in any group of teenagers there are some of both sexes who are so needy and naive that they can be so skillfully maniplated that consent is really not meaningful.

Put in another way, whether or not there is sexual abuse going on in a sexual relationship between an adult and a child, there is almost certainly emotional abuse going on, and that needs to be harshly prohibited/punished.

And for those of you that think you were too emotionally stable to have allowed your teacher to emotionally abuse you--you may well have been. So you'd never have been targeted by a sexually predatory teacher. The laws have to be there to protect the ones who are vunerable.

This is an amazingly true analysis and critique, except for the "almost certainly" in the second paragraph.

Adolescents vary immensely in maturity, worldly-wiseness, and the other factors needed for a mature sexual relationship. The greater proportion of sexual offenders who are identified and convicted are no doubt emotion-manipulators and abusive is too mild a word. But I would guess that a minority of boys in that age range and an even smaller minority of girls can make adult-level decisions and choose to enter into non-manipulative love relationships with adults or older teens that include sexual activity, and which are not harmful to them unless social condemnation makes it so. So I'd support MandaJo's assertion of the laws as needed for protection from sexual predators, with a suggestion that they may need a "savings" clause that permits cases where the evidence shows non-predatory, non emotionally manipulative, thoroughly consensual activity, to be simply dropped as not targeted by the statute.

In other words, I'm all for the protection of children and adolescents from sexual predators. The amount of hurt that sociopathic types of that sort cause is astronomical, and I think the court system sees only the tip of the iceberg.

But I think that equal damage is done by the conviction and branding of people who are, after all, only human, and who are not predatory. There was an instance from Australia reported in the gay press a while ago regarding a man in his 20s convicted of a sex offense for engaging in gay sex with a 15-year-old boy who maintained to the court that it was his idea, that he had been the aggressor in turning the relationship sexual, and that his older partner had at no time played any head games with him.

And that sort of thing means that we need to figure out how to walk a very tough balancing act.

[davenportavenger]

I think that the reason for why we treat male and female sex offenders differently is that men have usually been the ones to initiate a sexual relationship. Deep down, many people don't believe that a woman could do this. Also, men (even teenagers) are usually larger physically, so the only way a boy could get himself into it is to be roped in psychologically. And we've all seen how society reacts to people who suffered anything less than brutal torture before they were raped (e.g. the legitimacy of date rape). And of course, the whole machismo thing plays in too--a lot of guys don't want to admit to being forced into a bad sexual situation, because guys are supposed to want it all the time and not have any feelings about it. So that leads to a belief that males can never be scarred by rape or sexual assault, so it shouldn't be punished as heavily.

I also agree that the teacher's sentence is way too light and I think the "too pretty" comment demeans women in general. This woman should serve the same sentence a male sex offender would receive, in a real prison full of ugly people.

[kanicbird]

Look at child custody cases. Yes the law has a double standard, and men and women are different. Treating them all the same would be a crime against humanity.

The hard part is how to treat them differently but equally (I think I heard that before)

[davenportavenger]

Look at child custody cases. Yes the law has a double standard, and men and women are different. Treating them all the same would be a crime against humanity.Really? A crime against humanity? Do tell more.

(P.S. I disagree with the greater weight given to women in custody cases.)

[no screen name for now]

Was the teachers punishment too light?
Should we work to correct the double standard?
Can we? Jim

Hell yes, it's too light! I would personally with my bare hands kill any fucked-up 20- or 30-something woman who molested (and yes, people, that's what it's called whether the victim is a boy or a girl under the age of consent) my 13-year-old son. I wouldn't care how cool his friends thought it was.

[jsgoddess]

So jsgoddess what is your view on the double standard. I don't think it can be denied it exist.

It certainly exists, and I think it's ridiculous. Hiding behind "men and women are different" is just sexist bullshit, but it's precisely the sexist bullshit that politicians and courts always seem to trot out.

Now, if you ask me about penalties for statutory rape, there it gets a little wonky. Frankly, I don't know. I think it can be a very grey area. But the penalties should be the same, no matter the sex of the victim in relation to the sex of the assailant.

[What Exit?]

It certainly exists, and I think it's ridiculous. Hiding behind "men and women are different" is just sexist bullshit, but it's precisely the sexist bullshit that politicians and courts always seem to trot out.

Now, if you ask me about penalties for statutory rape, there it gets a little wonky. Frankly, I don't know. I think it can be a very grey area. But the penalties should be the same, no matter the sex of the victim in relation to the sex of the assailant.
BTW: I think the penalty should have been harsher, but I also can't help but think the boy will never mind it.

Weird twist on this tale of disgrace and statutory rape, what would you do if the teen had managed to solicit sex from an 18+ Prostitute? Should she be simply charged for prostitution or for statutory rape?

An open question just to add to the morale ambiguity.

Jim

[Manda JO]

And that sort of thing means that we need to figure out how to walk a very tough balancing act.

And I think that if we have to err, I'd rather err FAR on the side of protecting minors: the potential harm of a "relationship" where the balence of power is as drastically shifted to one side as it is between someone under 18 and an adult seems much greater than the potential harm of denying (or delaying) a potentially healthy, satisfying relationship. A non-consumated love affair is no harder on the heart than a non-requited one, and we recognize that as a sort of pain that a normal person can expect to go through and learn from. Sustained emotional manipulation from someone that you have no chance of exerting any control over yourself is much more serious.

Yes, age is arbitrary--some people are so needy and naive that there consent is never really meaningful--but it's the best thing we've got. And if that means that some people that could have been happy together never have that chance, I am ok with that.

[Manda JO]

BTW: I think the penalty should have been harsher, but I also can't help but think the boy will never mind it.

Jim

And again, I think you are assuming this boy is like you were at that age. And I am willing to bet that he isn't. That if he were capable of having a casual sexual relationship and of taking nothing from it but good times, that alone would have meant he wasn't attractive to the teacher. If she wanted an adult-style friends-with-benefits type arrangement, she'd have one with an adult.

Sexual predators are attracted to the kids they can overwhelm, the kids they can terrify, the kids they can isolate. They are attracted to the kids that are insecure, alienated, or lonely. Those are the kids you can control. Those are the kids you can get to worship you. Those are the kids that won't be able to walk away when it's over without any reprecussions. Those are the kids who can't consent.

Protecting those kids is worth denying some other, more balenced kids the chance to have an story they can wow the other Frat boys with in a few years.

[What Exit?]

And again, I think you are assuming this boy is like you were at that age. And I am willing to bet that he isn't. That if he were capable of having a casual sexual relationship and of taking nothing from it but good times, that alone would have meant he wasn't attractive to the teacher. If she wanted an adult-style friends-with-benefits type arrangement, she'd have one with an adult.

Sexual predators are attracted to the kids they can overwhelm, the kids they can terrify, the kids they can isolate. They are attracted to the kids that are insecure, alienated, or lonely. Those are the kids you can control. Those are the kids you can get to worship you. Those are the kids that won't be able to walk away when it's over without any reprecussions. Those are the kids who can't consent.

Protecting those kids is worth denying some other, more balenced kids the chance to have an story they can wow the other Frat boys with in a few years.
I know you are right. Everything you say is right. You are 100% correct.

But even 25 years later, I still remember being 14 and I just can't think of a kid I knew back then that wouldn't have jumped at the chance. Well maybe one, but we kind of knew he was gay and wasn't ready to admit it yet. The Hetero crowd would have all went for it happily and been dumb enough to tell someone else about it. (Possibly tell everyone about it.)

Jim

[Rodgers01]

Look at child custody cases. Yes the law has a double standard, and men and women are different. Treating them all the same would be a crime against humanity.

The hard part is how to treat them differently but equally (I think I heard that before)

Come again?? :eek: Is this supposed to be tongue in cheek?

And treating people "differently but equally" is a step too close to the "separate but equal" stuff I thought we got rid of long ago.

[Rodgers01]

At least Mary Kay Latorneau (sp?) was harshly punished and did (IIRC) go to jail, and her case got a lot more media attention.

[furt]

But even 25 years later, I still remember being 14 and I just can't think of a kid I knew back then that wouldn't have jumped at the chance. Well maybe one, but we kind of knew he was gay and wasn't ready to admit it yet. The Hetero crowd would have all went for it happily and been dumb enough to tell someone else about it. (Possibly tell everyone about it.)Of course they'd jump at the chance. That isn't the point.

Kids at that age will jump at the chance to do sort of things that can cause permanent damage -- e.g. sniff glue, play chicken, fuck random orifices -- because they have not yet fully developed the capacity to understand risks and consequences.

I sure would have jumped at the chance at 14.
Had I done so, I'm pretty confident, based on my knowledge of my personality, that it would have done some serious psychological harm.

[ombre3]

Of course they'd jump at the chance. That isn't the point.

Kids at that age will jump at the chance to do sort of things that can cause permanent damage -- e.g. sniff glue, play chicken, fuck random orifices -- because they have not yet fully developed the capacity to understand risks and consequences.

I sure would have jumped at the chance at 14.
Had I done so, I'm pretty confident, based on my knowledge of my personality, that it would have done some serious psychological harm.

Not particularly the preceding quote, but so many others on this thread.

I think we are all getting a little too PC. Women and men and boys and girls are exactly the same as to how they treat sex and are influenced by sex. ------ That is the real bullshit part.

'tain't so you know.

The vast majority of guys who had a relationship as a younger teen with an older women would brag to everybody who would listen and be proud as a rooster. And he would be considered "God" in the eyes of his buddies.

Now-----is the reverse true?===a very young teenage girl with an older man?

Of course not. Apples and oranges here.

LaFave should be given a medal. Keep going girl!!.

[Rodgers01]

Not particularly the preceding quote, but so many others on this thread.

I think we are all getting a little too PC. Women and men and boys and girls are exactly the same as to how they treat sex and are influenced by sex. ------ That is the real bullshit part.

'tain't so you know.

The vast majority of guys who had a relationship as a younger teen with an older women would brag to everybody who would listen and be proud as a rooster. And he would be considered "God" in the eyes of his buddies.

Now-----is the reverse true?===a very young teenage girl with an older man?

Of course not. Apples and oranges here.

LaFave should be given a medal. Keep going girl!!.

Okay, but if we're going to drop the PC we should admit that there are also teenage girls who like to sleep around and who might just have a thing for older men. They might even do their best to seduce said men. And it might not be psychologically damaging and tramautic to the girl -- at least not moreso than to the guy who bagged the older woman. But the law has drilled it into us that no matter the circumstances, no matter how willing and seemingly untramautised the girl in question may be, the older guy who sleeps with her is guilty of rape -- and, in effect, his career, his marriage, and perhaps his freedom are over.

So as far as I see it, either we allow more wiggle room for both cases (older man/younger girl and older woman/younger guy) depending on the circumstances and the willingness of the participants, or we take the hardass approach for both cases.

[ombre3]

Okay, but if we're going to drop the PC we should admit that there are also teenage girls who like to sleep around and who might just have a thing for older men. They might even do their best to seduce said men. And it might not be psychologically damaging and tramautic to the girl -- at least not moreso than to the guy who bagged the older woman. But the law has drilled it into us that no matter the circumstances, no matter how willing and seemingly untramautised the girl in question may be, the older guy who sleeps with her is guilty of rape -- and, in effect, his career, his marriage, and perhaps his freedom are over.

So as far as I see it, either we allow more wiggle room for both cases (older man/younger girl and older woman/younger guy) depending on the circumstances and the willingness of the participants, or we take the hardass approach for both cases.

"wiggle room" works for me.

[guizot]

At least Mary Kay Latorneau (sp?) was harshly punished and did (IIRC) go to jail, and her case got a lot more media attention.Yes, and she's already served her time, and I even think she's now married to the guy she was having an affair with.

La Havre's sentence was a lot harsher than the article in the OP suggests. For one thing, she can't be within 1,000 feet of children, which means her teaching career is ruined, of course, but that's pretty hard to do just while going about your routine life. She's going to become a registered sex offender, which will make future employment quite difficult. She has to take lie detector tests, and will be on probation for I think ten years. She also has to enroll in a three-year problem for sex offenders, and do a certain amount of community service, as well as pay for psychological therapy for the boy.

Granted, she's not going to jail; but I guess she had a good lawyer. Obviously it was statutory rape, and fourteen is pretty young, but the boy did consent to the affair. A lot of fourteen-year olds are having sex with their peers--perhaps his attitude had something to do with it too.

[ombre3]

I thought the sentence was a little harsh myself. But what the hell?

At least the idea that she was temporarily insane was dropped.

She was just horny, and the kid was just horny. No insanity there.

[furt]

The vast majority of guys who had a relationship as a younger teen with an older women would brag to everybody who would listen and be proud as a rooster. And he would be considered "God" in the eyes of his buddies.No doubt -- just as a kid huffing glue thinks he's a badass. It doesn't mean either one of them isn't doing serious harm to themselves.

If anything is PC it's this damnfool notion that teenage boys are nothing more than walking erections, and that nothing they do or have done to them will ever come back to bite them in the ass.

[ombre3]

No doubt -- just as a kid huffing glue thinks he's a badass. It doesn't mean either one of them isn't doing serious harm to themselves.

If anything is PC it's this damnfool notion that teenage boys are nothing more than walking erections, and that nothing they do or have done to them will ever come back to bite them in the ass.

I am a serious believer that teenage boys are nothing more than walking erections and that nothing they do or have done to them will ever come back to bite them in the ass.

Oh for the good old days.

[ombre3]

I am a serious believer that teenage boys are nothing more than walking erections and that nothing they do or have done to them will ever come back to bite them in the ass.

Oh for the good old days.

For the vast majority of teenage boys-----all it is about is the good old "in and out"

I think girls take it much more seriously.

[guizot]

Okay, but if we're going to drop the PC we should admit that there are also teenage girls who like to sleep around and who might just have a thing for older men. They might even do their best to seduce said men. And it might not be psychologically damaging and tramautic to the girl Tell me about it!

I normally teach adults, but occasionally they send me students from L.A. High (which is run like a prison, BTW) when they're "off track," to improve their English. At first, I had an entire class of them. It was a disaster, because I treated them like adults; they were actually throwing shoes at each other.

One day I got a call from one of the students, sixteen, I think. I have no idea how she got my number (which is unlisted.) She said she wanted advice. At first I thought she might have needed academic help, even though she was a good student. Or maybe she was gay, and that was why she needed help. Then she said it was because she was interested in someone but didn't know how to proceed. She eventually comes around to saying the person she was referring to was in fact myself. I told her that it was illegal to even consider something like that, and that it would be against my personal policy anway if she were ten years older. She was newly arrived from Nicaragua, didn't think anything wrong in it (and quite stunning, to my chagrin).

Then there was the student who always sat directly behind the overhead projector (which I put befind the first row of desks to project a larger imagine). Quite a few times (as the lights were dimmed and no one could see), she'd lean her head back to my rear end. I eventually told her she shouldn't be such a "coqueta," and she acted as though I were making things up.

We wised up, and limited the amount of high school students per adult class, and I quickly learned that you need to pair them with adults, and they'll act like adults. The policy was that didn't have to accept more than five, but I got a group that was so good, well-behaved, and who got along so well I took on about eight of them. They were all girls (mostly from Central America), and it become the greatest class I've ever had. They were extremely and pleasantly sassy, but always quite respectful, as far as i was concerned. They were intelligent and well adept at double entredre jokes, both in English and Spanish--but nothing crude or offensive. They flirted a lot with me, and were all extremely fetching. I don't know if they "slept around," but I think they were psychologically pretty well-adjusted with regard to sex. I can say this because a local community group would come around every once in a while and have discussions in the classes (mainly about AIDS), and they all addressed the issues maturely

[furt]

I am a serious believer that teenage boys are nothing more than walking erections I suppose some of them just stay that way.

[ombre3]

I suppose some of them just stay that way.

Not true anymore. Tough luck and too bad.

[nd_n8]

IMHO, anytime a person or group in society is segregated and labeled (black, white, gay, straight, male, female etc.) the whole point of separation is to establish a double standard to gain a competitave edge, either real or imagined. Competition is human nature at all levels, whether it is for a better job or a higher place in society, or for who has to take the garbage to the curb on a cold morning. That said, the age difference is not really a socially implied label. No matter what sex the offender is or which party is consentual such an assult on a minor is wrong and it is the older party's duty to take responsibility for their actions (the younger person must also be taught to take responsibility because they would not have enough life experience to understand the nuances of right and wrong, that plus the whole pubescent hormone explosion kind of makes them unstable anyway).

Look at child custody cases. Yes the law has a double standard, and men and women are different. Treating them all the same would be a crime against humanity.

I don't really get how treating men and women the same would be a crime to humanity. Other than the obvious (and quite appreciated ;) ) biological differences, social responsibility is the same and accountability should be the same. I know of a lot of men who get custody even though most judges tend to side with the mother. The law is impartial but the way each judge applys it up to their disgression.

"Women will never be truly equal to men until they can walk down the street in sweat pants with a bald head and a beer gut and think 'Damn, I'm sexy' :cool: "

[Manda JO]

I thought the sentence was a little harsh myself. But what the hell?

At least the idea that she was temporarily insane was dropped.

She was just horny, and the kid was just horny. No insanity there.

For the vast majority of teenage boys-----all it is about is the good old "in and out"

I think girls take it much more seriously.

How would you know these things? Because of your vast experience with yourself and your friends? Because of your faded and idealized memories? Because of an article you read in Penthouse?

I work with teenagers, boys and girls. I know hundreds of teenage boys: I have heard their hopes and dreams and fears. I've watched them triumph and I've watched them face catastrophe, and let me tell you something: teenagers are a complex and varied bunch. You can't generalize and say it's mostly about the "old in and out" because they just aren't all the same. I can think of five or six boys that I teach right now that I know cannot treat sex like that, be it because of their personality, their religious convictions, or because they've either been sexually abused or witnessed the sexual abuse of girls/women they love. And these are just the ones that I know about.

For kids in these catagories, having a teacher manipulate them into sex would cause real and lasting harm. Maybe if it had been you, you'd have been just fine. Which is why it would never have been you. The attraction here is not sex. Women who are "just horny" don't engage in what had be an incredibly difficult thing to coordinate/conceal, risk their careers and jail time, and go against every societal expectation in order to get some. They go to a bar. They call an old boyfriend. They jump a coworker. The attraction here is the chance to fuck with someone's head, and so they will pick and manipulate the kid who loves his girlfriend, the kid who is wracked with religious ambivilance, the kid who is filled with rage towards his sexually abusive stepfather. Protecting those kids is more importance than protecting the possibility that some of the emotionally sound kids might actually get some.

[Cheesesteak]

What the take of psychologists on this? Does any psychologist support the position that it would psychologically damaging for a 14-year-old girl to lose her virginity to an adult man, but not damaging (or less damaging) for a 14-year-old boy to lose his virginity to an adult woman? (Or vice-versa?)I think this is the theory behind the double standard. We assume that the boys will not be harmed emotionally by having sex with a teacher, while the girls would be.

The goal is to protect the children, if they are happy with the situation, genuinely happy and undamaged emotionally, then why would we demand our pound of flesh? Unfortunately, our laws can't make assumptions on this topic, so it comes down to potentially questionable prosecutorial discretion.

[Malacandra]

"Women will never be truly equal to men until they can walk down the street in sweat pants with a bald head and a beer gut and think 'Damn, I'm sexy' :cool: "

Ever seen a size 22 ass crammed into size 16 mock-leopardskin leggings, and hair blonde-bleached so brittle it breaks if you look at it? The drive for equality is doing its best. :)

[What Exit?]

Ever seen a size 22 ass crammed into size 16 mock-leopardskin leggings, and hair blonde-bleached so brittle it breaks if you look at it? The drive for equality is doing its best. :)
I work with a lady like that. :D

Jim

[scotandrsn]

At least Mary Kay Latorneau (sp?) was harshly punished and did (IIRC) go to jail, and her case got a lot more media attention.

The news report I saw on this case this morning on Today was that the mother of the victim specifically did NOT want a media-drenched trial where her family's personal history was aired out for the world to see. So I think the prosecution was willing to bend on the point of incarceration out of respect for this wish.

The defense lead was on saying he had three psychologists ready to testify that she had serious mental issues due to traumas she had endured just prior to the affair. So the prosecution may have been swayed by that as well.

[Weirddave]

Manda JO, you're making some good points, but you're also painting with an awfully broad brush-ironically while railing against another poster for painting with a broad brush.

[furt]

Manda JO, you're making some good points, but you're also painting with an awfully broad brush-ironically while railing against another poster for painting with a broad brush.Where the fuck is she doing that? She keeps repeatedly saying she's talking about SOME kids.

Some kids could handle it and and no doubt do.
Some kids can't, and the law is there to protect them. What part of that is so hard for people here to grasp?

[BrainGlutton]

I think this is the theory behind the double standard. We assume that the boys will not be harmed emotionally by having sex with a teacher, while the girls would be.

Yes, but is that assumption true or false?

[Weirddave]

Where the fuck is she doing that? She keeps repeatedly saying she's talking about SOME kids.

Some kids could handle it and and no doubt do.
Some kids can't, and the law is there to protect them. What part of that is so hard for people here to grasp?
Her underlying assumption is that the only reason an older person would want to fuck a younger one is because they want to manipulate them. I do not buy that at all, and I think it throws her entire arguement out of whack.

[tdn]

For kids in these catagories, having a teacher manipulate them into sex would cause real and lasting harm. Maybe if it had been you, you'd have been just fine. Which is why it would never have been you. The attraction here is not sex. Women who are "just horny" don't engage in what had be an incredibly difficult thing to coordinate/conceal, risk their careers and jail time, and go against every societal expectation in order to get some.
Not sure I agree with this. Sure, in some cases, that's likely true. But I'd bet that in many cases pedophiles desire teens simply because they like the way that teens look, or act, or something like that. If I say that I like women with smaller breasts, it's not because I want to "get into their heads." It's because I like the way small breasts look. I have no desire to manipulate anybody, emotionally or otherwise. It's because I have sexual preferences. If you, for instance, like guys who are well-muscled, is it because you want to lord yourself over them emotionally? Or is it simply because you like what you like?

This reminds me of the wonky claims made by some women (and some on this board) who think that the only reason men want to have sex is because they want to hurt women. Must suck to view the entire world in such a predator/victim way.

[SlowMindThinking]

On the whole, I think MandaJo is correct, but I think there are a few points that haven't come up, yet.

First, she isn't just an older, adult babe. She was his teacher. When I was a TA, we were told that an affair with any of our students would be grounds for dismissal, and realistically, the careers of any aiming to teach at a university. Some of my students were older than me, and everybody was above the age of consent. Besides the obvious that a student might be sleeping for a grade, or at least extra help, there is the fact that the other students are hurt. If a class is graded on a curve, there is a chance that someone gets a C that would otherwise have gotten a B, and so on. (My brother knew a kid who slep for his chem lab grade. The consensus was, he earned it.) Also, you are abusing a position of authority. If I an intern here at work gave me a BJ, even one older than me, I'd be fired, and depending on how any legal issues (sexual harassment) were worked, I could conceivably be jailed. Clinton got off lucky, if you'll pardon the pun. I don't think there is any question that what she did was morally wrong, and is illegal for good reason.

I don't think most of the women who have made the news are predatory in the sense that MandaJo is talking. My brother had a friend who lost his virginity to a 30 something guest at his dad's hotel. He was legal. There was no relationship. That was just a case of two horny individuals. That is the kind of situation most guys are thinking of when they say, "Where were teachers like that when I was a teenager?"

These women are different. There is a pathetic case in the Denver area of a woman, around 36, who got alcohol and drugs for her teenage son and his friends. And slept with them. Her excuse was "she just wanted to be a cool mom." Think of what her son is going through right now. From what I've read, most of these women are needy and immature. They're not going to hit on a kid who is essentially a very young adult, they're going to hit on a kid at least as immature as they are. I think the primary damage to a 13-14 year old kid (and yes, I have a boy who turns 14 today) is that he might well fixate on the woman, and she is clearly not healthy. Positive reinforcement is the best way to train, and there is no positive reinforcement like sex. That is what the parents of the kid who screwed around with Mary Kay Whatever worry about.

[SlowMindThinking]

...I imagine even the father probably secretly thought, "Way to go kid, I glad he’s not gay". If it was his daughter, he would have been shopping for a good accurate weapon.
Jim

There is some truth to this. But as a father of teenage boys and girls, and having seen several of her pictures, I'd probably have thought "Damn! The kid looks like me, why didn't she hit on me?!"

[tdn]

SlowMindThinking, you raise a good point. The unequal relationship makes it unworkable at best. But that does not prove that LaFave's motive was to manipulate or take advantage. (Then again, it doesn't disprove it, either.) It's entirely possible that she just has a thing for teen bone. No, that doesn't excuse what she did, but I don't think we can give her a comprehensive psych evaluation merely because of her age and that of her lover.

[kanicbird]

The crime against humanity would be to not acknowledge officially the differences between men and women. It is the differences, not the similarities which make us great.

The 2nd issue is far more insidious, that of having 'unwritten' laws, one such unwritten law would be that the mother gets preference in custody case, another such law is that a certain speed over the speed limit is 'ok' (so called enforcement tollerences). By not putting this down in writing, but enforcing these unwritten laws causes arbitrary justice, which is the essence of unfair justice and breeds abuse of power and favoritism.

If you are going to act like a law is there, make the law and put it down in b&w.

[BrainGlutton]

The crime against humanity would be to not acknowledge officially the differences between men and women.

Such as? I presume you mean psychological differences as opposed to the obvious anatomical ones. But what psychological differences are there, really?

[Translucent Daydream]

You know I haven't read anyone making this point:

What if the teacher was ass ugly instead of the super hottie that she is?

Where I work (and where I went to college) if you were a smoking hot chick, you get away with anything with little more than a slap on the wrist.

If I had pulled half the crap that the sorority chicks pulled down the street from me I would have gone right to jail.

Seriously.

I didn't mean to offend anyone in here by the term "chick."

[What Exit?]

You know I haven't read anyone making this point:

What if the teacher was ass ugly instead of the super hottie that she is?

Where I work (and where I went to college) if you were a smoking hot chick, you get away with anything with little more than a slap on the wrist.

If I had pulled half the crap that the sorority chicks pulled down the street from me I would have gone right to jail.

Seriously.

I didn't mean to offend anyone in here by the term "chick."
Quite honestly, I think her punishment would have been worse.
Not right, just what I think would have happened.

Jim

[Manda JO]

Not sure I agree with this. Sure, in some cases, that's likely true. But I'd bet that in many cases pedophiles desire teens simply because they like the way that teens look, or act, or something like that. If I say that I like women with smaller breasts, it's not because I want to "get into their heads." It's because I like the way small breasts look. I have no desire to manipulate anybody, emotionally or otherwise. It's because I have sexual preferences. If you, for instance, like guys who are well-muscled, is it because you want to lord yourself over them emotionally? Or is it simply because you like what you like?



Honestly, this is one place where I think a double standard does apply to some degree: women are so strongly socialized AWAY from being attracted to younger men and men so strongly socialized TOWARDS being attracted to younger women that I think it is MORE likely that a woman who is sexually involved with a much younger student is working from motivations other than simple attraction. Inevitably? Of course not. But it bothers me that it is treated as the less serious situation when I think that in practice it is more likely to be founded in a desire to mantipulate someone.

And I want to emphasize SlowMindThinking's point about this being her student. I am coming at this from that perpective. I have so much power over some of my kids. Not all. But any half-way decent teacher has half a dozen students who would walk through fire for them, and there is no way I, myself, can ever be sure I am not manipulating them. I worry about unduly influencing their choice of university or major: any sexual relationship based on the same type of power imbalence is inherently coereced. There's no way you can be sure you aren't being manipulative.

[nd_n8]

Quite honestly, I think her punishment would have been worse.
Not right, just what I think would have happened.

Jim

Agreed. As far as it not being right but what would have happened, it goes back to kanicbird's point on arbitrary justice. It's not right but what do ya do? It's easier to argue absolute justice when arbitrary justice does not affect you, but how often does that really happen? Kind of like waiting for someone to cast the first stone, who among us qualifies as without sin?

Ever seen a size 22 ass crammed into size 16 mock-leopardskin leggings, and hair blonde-bleached so brittle it breaks if you look at it? The drive for equality is doing its best.

:eek: LMAO

[Guinastasia]

But I think that equal damage is done by the conviction and branding of people who are, after all, only human, and who are not predatory. There was an instance from Australia reported in the gay press a while ago regarding a man in his 20s convicted of a sex offense for engaging in gay sex with a 15-year-old boy who maintained to the court that it was his idea, that he had been the aggressor in turning the relationship sexual, and that his older partner had at no time played any head games with him.

And that sort of thing means that we need to figure out how to walk a very tough balancing act.

Maybe so, but fact remains, he was the adult in the relationship, and could have said no.

I'm sure there were teens (male and female) who tried to seduce their teachers. Does that mean that teacher is off the hook? I don't think so.

[Translucent Daydream]

Ever seen a size 22 ass crammed into size 16 mock-leopardskin leggings, and hair blonde-bleached so brittle it breaks if you look at it? The drive for equality is doing its best. :)

This reminds me of a fat Peggy Bundy....
:)

[John_Stamos'_Left_Ear]

The stereotype when it comes to sexuality is that for men it is a chore while for women it is a choice. Like any stereotype it is not always true, but also like any stereotype, it is accurate as a generality. Don't believe me? Put a hot guy and an average-looking woman in a bar an hour before closing time. If both wanted to get some opposite-gender tail that evening, which one are you wagering has the better chance?

If a guy not in a relationship has a woman he barely knows want to sleep with him, is he more likely to say yes than the girl who has a guy hitting on her the same way?

So color me unsurprised that we treat a woman who sleeps with a teenager differently in the eyes of the law than the other way around because we're filtering the law through our own makeup.

The fact is that a teenage boy sure CAN be taken advantage of by a female, but when looking at it when it happens, it's not surprising that someone might think differently. For example, in the recent case of Sandra "Beth" Geisel:Judge (Stephen) Herrick told Geisel, "The 16-year-old in this case is a victim in the statutory sense only, and certainly not a victim by you in any other sense of the word."

WTEN (http://www.wten.com/Global/story.asp?S=4156163&nav=6uyN) If a judge is making the determination that a teenage boy was not really a victim - and you KNOW that a judge would never be able to make such a determination aloud if the genders were reversed, at least not without being publicly castrated for insensitivity - how can we expect Joe Sixpack to make a distinction?

The only unsurprising thing to me about these female teachers banging their underage students is how hot they seem to always be... When did that shit start?

[kanicbird]

Such as? I presume you mean psychological differences as opposed to the obvious anatomical ones. But what psychological differences are there, really?

Well a humorous listing can be seen at :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3002946.stm
And I'm sure you remember the hub-bub at Harvard not to long ago:
http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2005/01/17/summers_remarks_on_women_draw_fire?mode=PF
Another look at the above (from a different POV can be seen here:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2088-1452225,00.html

The point that I am trying to make (well one of them) is in todays PC society we are not allowed to explore differences, even when the obviously exist. I think it's pretty fair to say that most poeple beleive that men and women are somewhat different, somehow wired differently, though when you dare to mention it you are shuned and censored, which is the exact opposite of what should happen in a free society.

[SlowMindThinking]

Maybe so, but fact remains, he was the adult in the relationship, and could have said no.

I'm sure there were teens (male and female) who tried to seduce their teachers. Does that mean that teacher is off the hook? I don't think so.

Especially because of the age we are talking about here. Yeah, there are plenty of 17 year olds of either sex who look like adults. I can't think of a 15 year old girl who does, but I'm sure there are some. 14 year old boys? I don't think so. A minority shave regularly, but none look like adults. That means the woman is either attracted to juvenile features, which makes her a pedophile, or is so psychologically screwed up, that she can overcome the natural revulsion (at least within our society) to such an act.

LaFave claimed it was the "excitement" of a forbidden act. If that was the case, she could have tried S&M in a church. My guess would be that she still had an overwhelming need to be cool and popular - with the junior high set.

As to why the teachers are always hot, that should be obvious. I doubt most of the ones that aren't hot succeed. And of the minority that succeed, the student ain't bragging enough to be caught.

[doreen]

Not sure I agree with this. Sure, in some cases, that's likely true. But I'd bet that in many cases pedophiles desire teens simply because they like the way that teens look, or act, or something like that. If I say that I like women with smaller breasts, it's not because I want to "get into their heads." It's because I like the way small breasts look. I have no desire to manipulate anybody, emotionally or otherwise. It's because I have sexual preferences. If you, for instance, like guys who are well-muscled, is it because you want to lord yourself over them emotionally? Or is it simply because you like what you like?

This reminds me of the wonky claims made by some women (and some on this board) who think that the only reason men want to have sex is because they want to hurt women. Must suck to view the entire world in such a predator/victim way.

But the thing is that an adult who is both attracted to teens and acts on that attraction isn't just being attracted based on their looks. Say a man is 35 and attracted to small breasts because he likes they way they look. I can understand that. But the man who is more interested in small- breasted 15 year olds than he is in small- breasted 20 or 25 year olds clearly has another factor in his attraction. And while it may not be an actual "desire to get into their heads" , it very likely is true that the 15 year old's relative immaturity is itself a big factor in the attraction. There has to be some reason to prefer the relationship that will have to be hidden, the one that will involve outside restrictions such as drinking ages and curfews, the one that will lead to social disapproval and possibly the loss of a job and jail, while most 35 year old men might glance at the 15 year old, possibly think she's attractive, and immediately put her out of their minds. The only ones I can see are either that the immaturity itself is a turn on , or our 35 year old figures he's got a better chance with the 15 year old than with a 25 year old- which still really goes back to her immaturity.

[ombre3]

Hell yes, it's too light! I would personally with my bare hands kill any fucked-up 20- or 30-something woman who molested (and yes, people, that's what it's called whether the victim is a boy or a girl under the age of consent) my 13-year-old son. I wouldn't care how cool his friends thought it was.

There is a double standard.

I would feel the same way about my daughters. "Strangle the bastard". Or "lock him up and throw away the key"

However, my son, (just conjecture here, since I only had daughters---but I came from a family of all boys and this is what MY father would have done)-------

All I would say to him would have been " I hope you used a rubber."

[ombre3]

And of course ---

---"Don't tell your mother about this. She would go ballistic---"Her poor innocent baby boy !! --defiled for eternity"

[Guinastasia]

Especially because of the age we are talking about here. Yeah, there are plenty of 17 year olds of either sex who look like adults. I can't think of a 15 year old girl who does, but I'm sure there are some. 14 year old boys? I don't think so. A minority shave regularly, but none look like adults. That means the woman is either attracted to juvenile features, which makes her a pedophile, or is so psychologically screwed up, that she can overcome the natural revulsion (at least within our society) to such an act.


I don't know-I've known girls who looked 18 when they were 13, and girls who looked 13 when they were 18. Boys might be different, but some do develop quickly-my 10 year old cousin is going to be taller than I am in a year or so, I'm betting. He's a BIG kid-not as in fat, but he's very tall and he's got a lot of muscle on him. I wouldn't be surprised if he looks older than his age.

However, I think it's not the looks, but the emotional, mental, intellectual maturity that are really messed up in this case.

[clairobscur]

I am a serious believer that teenage boys are nothing more than walking erections and that nothing they do or have done to them will ever come back to bite them in the ass.
.


And I'm a serious believer that men who thinks that way were too clueless when they were teenagers to notice that a significant number of their peers weren't just like them. I wasn't a walking erection as a teenager, and the other male teenagers I associated with weren't, either. You probably didn't notice us because we belonged to another crowd you were unfamiliar with. And I don't think we were a rarity. I think you're just projecting : "I and my buddies were like that, so I assume everybody was like that".

I wouldn't have slept with anything with a heartbeat, and there was no way I would have been attracted by an old fart like a 25 yo teacher, regardless how attractive. Actually, being attractive and being adult were mutually exclusive terms.

[Malacandra]

Well a humorous listing can be seen at :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3002946.stm
And I'm sure you remember the hub-bub at Harvard not to long ago:
http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2005/01/17/summers_remarks_on_women_draw_fire?mode=PF
Another look at the above (from a different POV can be seen here:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2088-1452225,00.html

The point that I am trying to make (well one of them) is in todays PC society we are not allowed to explore differences, even when the obviously exist. I think it's pretty fair to say that most poeple beleive that men and women are somewhat different, somehow wired differently, though when you dare to mention it you are shuned and censored, which is the exact opposite of what should happen in a free society.

Can I just say that I'm all in favour of acknowledging the differences between the sexes? I doubt this surprises anyone who's seen me post for very long. I'd like to add, thought, that if we're going to take official notice, we ought to be even-handed about it. F'rinstance, I'd be deeply suspicious of any kind of "enlightened sexism" that practised equality all down the line except when it came to matters like giving mothers preferential treatment in custody cases, or letting female teachers who molest get away with a slap on the wrist and a pound out of the till.

[PerditaX]

Okay. Here's some Turkey Day TMI.

My ex-husband was a 7th grade teacher at a fundie school. He lost his job (and his marriage, obviously) after having a thing going on with one of his girl students. It's been 10 years and to this day I don't know all the details, but my ultra-fundie pastor (who was the president of the school's board) told me I had "Biblical grounds" for the divorce. I'm also pretty certain he'd "crossed the line" with other girls, although it hadn't gone this far and/or they hadn't gotten caught.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I can say with certainty that in this case, it wasn't about physical attractiveness and it wasn't (consciously, at least) about manipulation. Admittedly, the girl in question was extremely emotionally needy (the fact that, apparently, she had been sexually abused by her stepfather is why they opted not to press charges - and why you never heard about this one in the media), but she was average-looking at best. The Ex, however, was extremely emotionally immature, and, I think, was looking for someone on his level. (ftr, when I married him, at 22, we were both a bit immature, but ultimately I grew up and he didn't....) From what I've seen and heard, Debra LaFavre is also very immature - she may be 25, but she sounds like she's 15. I think immaturity on the part of the adult is something that needs to be considered as motive.

Another point I would like to stress is that it's not just the age-difference. It's the abuse of authority. A teacher is an authority figure, and "in loco parentis." To abuse that authority and betray that trust is a crime beyond any sexual exploitation. That's why a supervisor hitting on a subordinate is guilty of sexual harassment.

:eek:

[Polycarp]

I'd just like to focus our attention on a point made in passing by MandaJo and others, and brought up again by PerditaX here:
Another point I would like to stress is that it's not just the age-difference. It's the abuse of authority. A teacher is an authority figure, and "in loco parentis." To abuse that authority and betray that trust is a crime beyond any sexual exploitation. That's why a supervisor hitting on a subordinate is guilty of sexual harassment.

(BTW, Perdita, a belated Welcome to the Dope. Great post! :))

[kimera]

Honestly, this is one place where I think a double standard does apply to some degree: women are so strongly socialized AWAY from being attracted to younger men and men so strongly socialized TOWARDS being attracted to younger women that I think it is MORE likely that a woman who is sexually involved with a much younger student is working from motivations other than simple attraction.


Actually, I've found the reverse to be true. Of the females I've known who were attracted to underaged boys, most of them just liked how they looked. The ones who were interested in manipulating or controlling were all men. Of course, I've only talked indepth with three females and five males who've had these urges, but from what I've read, it seems to be typical.

There is also the fact that some boys grow up really fast. One of my roomies for a month was a 17 year old Egyptian man who came to play tennis for the local college. I say man instead of boy because he was very large. Side by side, I looked a lot younger than him even though I am almost 7 years older. My younger brothers are all taller and larger than me now, and most of them have been since 8th grade. I wouldn't dismiss the "attractive" factor immediately.

[tdn]

Honestly, this is one place where I think a double standard does apply to some degree: women are so strongly socialized AWAY from being attracted to younger men and men so strongly socialized TOWARDS being attracted to younger women that I think it is MORE likely that a woman who is sexually involved with a much younger student is working from motivations other than simple attraction. Inevitably? Of course not.
If you take a long hard look at the wonderful world of human sexuality, one inevitable conclusion you'll come up with is that people tend to have some mighty strange desires. S&M, bestiality, cross-dressing, coprophilia, necrophilia--all of these are such strangers to my way of thinking. And absolutely counter to the real objective of sex, which is primarily procreation. And yet they're not uncommon at all. Even pedophilia, while absolutely wrong morally and legally, is, unfortunately, not all that uncommon. We're a diverse bunch, to say the least.

A few years back, I was on a message board where a number of women were bragging about how they had recently bagged boy toys--men some 10-12 years younger than themselves. And that's entirely counter to the socialization that you speak of.

One thing to consider is motivation vs affect. It's possible that while the affect that whatzername had on the kid was manipulation, that may not have been her motivation.

I'm not saying you're wrong, in fact you may well be right. But given the strange diversity in sexual preference that our species displays, I don't find it entirely outside the realm of possibility that she just has a thing for teenage boys.

[tdn]

Do some kids look slightly older than they are? Sometimes, yeah. When I was a clerk at the video store, I remember seeing 2 young ladies who were, in my estimation, in their early to mid 20s. I was recommending all sorts of R-rated movies to them (not specifically R-rated, but they were in the mix of what I recommended). Imagine my shock when their mother told me they were 10 and 12. The hell? These girls could easily have gone into bars without being carded. 10 years old and 6 feet tall? REAL early bloomers, I guess.

[clairobscur]

I was considering some posts in this thread, and something came to my mind while reading thelast post about the 20 yo looking 10 yo :


If pedophiles were mostly attracted towards young teenagers due to them being immatures and easy to manipulate rather than because they look like teenagers, wouldn't they instead pick immature/easily manipulated *adults*? It's not like there's a shortage of them, in my experience, and it's much safer.

[SlowMindThinking]

Do some kids look slightly older than they are? Sometimes, yeah. When I was a clerk at the video store, I remember seeing 2 young ladies who were, in my estimation, in their early to mid 20s. I was recommending all sorts of R-rated movies to them (not specifically R-rated, but they were in the mix of what I recommended). Imagine my shock when their mother told me they were 10 and 12. The hell? These girls could easily have gone into bars without being carded. 10 years old and 6 feet tall? REAL early bloomers, I guess.

At 6' 2", I was often mistaken for someone much younger. Height is a poor determinent for age. Girls are more likely to look like women, than boys like men, because girls hit puberty earlier. By 14, they are much more likely to have reached their full height, and be fully developed.

I've never seen that with boys. My brother was a year younger than I was. Four kids in his 6th grade class were over 6'. By the time they were 14, I believe all four were over 6'3" and not skinny. Not one of them looked like a man though. When they were juniors in HS, they were all at least 6'4" and 240. They were much closer to looking like men at that point. It is the jaw, the shoulders, and the muscular development. IIRC, the boy in this case was pretty big, but still looked like a boy. At any rate, that woman knew she was in the wrong, because of the abuse of authority and his age, that is why she admitted it was "exciting".

PerditaX, my deepest sympathies. The shame and embarrassment must have been overwhelming.

[tdn]

My sister is 2 years older than me. When she hit 18 or 19 (legal drinking age at the time), we'd go out to dinner with my parents. When asked if we'd like something to drink, my parents would order a pitcher of beer and three glasses. Invariably one glass would be put down in front of me instead of my sister. That used to bug the crap out of her. :p

[Sleel]

Obviously there's a double standard. Hell, the age of consent laws we have now are a result of campaigns in the late 1800s by women's societies to protect girls from the "predations" of men who might "take advantage" of naivete. Personally, I think it's a crock, as I've said in a few other threads. People in the US seem to be very hung up on sexual issues, to the point where even when both parties are willing they are held to be misguided. That kind of patronizing, we-know-what's-best-for-you attitude activates my gag reflex. I think it's disgusting that minors have little to no say in both cases like this and divorce. They are people too. They have feelings and opinions, and they are capable of making decisions. That faculty doesn't magically appear at age eighteen.

I personally think that the only thing she did wrong was having a relationship with a student, which was inappropriate to her position as a teacher. I do not agree with the concept of statutory rape laws and I do not think that having sex at a relatively young age is automatically going to be traumatic. I think it's more likely that society's reaction to the sexual contact is going to be traumatic than that the actual sex will be. This knee-jerk "pedophilia" reaction is getting completely out of hand.

There was a case that was appealed all the way to the California Supreme Court wherein the ruling held that both the parties involved (a 13 year old girl and a 14 year old boy, if I remember correctly) were both victims and perpetrators of a crime. The decision specifically stated that the court did not want to provide any legal permission for minors to engage in sexual relations. The reason that the case went that far seemed to be because the boy's mother thought it was ridiculous that her son was facing legal punishment for doing something both he and the girl wanted to do.

What was the worse victimization, the sex or the court system? The girl had to see her boyfriend brought up on charges for having sex with her, even though she wanted to have sex with him. He was probably facing juvenile hall and probation for having sex with his girlfriend. Both families incurred legal costs and tons of emotional stress. The kids were victimized by their parents and the courts. How would you feel if you were being threatened with arrest and jail time for having sex with your girlfriend? How would you feel if your mother tried to have your boyfriend brought up on charges for having sex with you? I'm absolutely certain that their emotional reaction was about the same as yours would be: shock, fear, anger, resentment, distrust of authority, the agony of seeing someone they cared about mistreated. I personally think they both would have been better off if no one besides them had known about it.

There's another issue involved here too. How many teens are going to conceal sexual relationships from everyone around them because of cases like this? How much stress and social destructiveness will result because of that? How much of an impact will this have on parent-child relationships?

If I were a teenager right now, I would feel like I couldn't even talk about any sexual relationships I had for fear that it might be considered "inappropriate" and either I or my partner could be facing criminal charges. My first two sexual relationships were in a grey area. I was nearly 18, but not quite, and the people involved were 29 and 25. They were technically committing statutory rape. If my parents had wanted to bring charges, they could have, no matter what my wishes were. My only regret, then and now, was that I hadn't started at an earlier age. Sex and the issues involved with forging my sexual identity had an enormous effect on my life, for the positive.

[Justin_Bailey]

Do some kids look slightly older than they are? Sometimes, yeah. When I was a clerk at the video store, I remember seeing 2 young ladies who were, in my estimation, in their early to mid 20s. I was recommending all sorts of R-rated movies to them (not specifically R-rated, but they were in the mix of what I recommended). Imagine my shock when their mother told me they were 10 and 12. The hell? These girls could easily have gone into bars without being carded. 10 years old and 6 feet tall? REAL early bloomers, I guess.

I've seen this a lot. I work at a library and if a patron can produce a driver's license they are considered an "adult" and don't need to have a parent fill out a permission slip so we can create the card.

I can't tell you how many times I ask young teens (9 times out of 10 girls) if I can see their driver's license and they hit me back with "I'm 12 or 10 or 13 or (at the oldest) 14".

Then their mothers come over and look absolutely shocked that the 23 year old man behind the counter (and I look about 17 when I shave regularly) would think their precious had a license.

They're 12 and taller than me lady, what am I supposed to think?