Seismic energy storage

[Thinktank]

I was curious if there is currently a way to store energy produced via seismic activity? I'm not just talking about Earthquakes or giant movements.

Take something like a freeway, now there's a whole lot of free energy in my opinion just going to waste in such an environment. But I won't take this too far for now.

I just wanted to point out that there are more and more roads and freeways have an almost constant flow of traffic. Could you not arrange a device in such a way so that vehicles that are moving over the road and moving it in all sorts of ways contribute to a energy storage device?

I understand that a rolling vehicle's seismic activity in terms of duration and intensity would be quite minor, but we're talking about free energy here and almost a constant flow of it if my local freeway is any indicator to everyone else's.

Is this possible and the answer is usually "yes";

So then I will ask "Is it feasible?" =)
Thanks all

[Squink]

Would arrays of piezoelectric crystals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piezoelectricity) under the freeways of LA generate enough power to light the city?
I don't know, but it seems like something that should be looked into.

[Harmonious Discord]

You can rig up something like a self winding watch or the paddle system used to harvest waves. The mechanisms are easily possible with today's technology. It all comes down to a high expense in manufacture, implementation, and collecting the stored energy into a big pool thats useful.

[scr4]

Energy = force * distance. Something has to move to absorb energy. That means the road surfaces will have to be softer, and it'll require more energy to move across that road. So fuel economy will suffer. You can't get something for nothing.

[Thinktank]

Well, thanks for the formula scr4, but I'm familiar with how energy in generated. It was also the gist of the Q, to encourage creativityand additional ideas.

Blacktop btw, moves quite alot in a day: It expands and contracts, compresses and rebounds; it even vibrates- just not as efficiently as the piezoelectric crystals Squink referred to.

I also don't believe that blacktop would have to be softer for this process to bode results (how well I can't be sure) but the objects mixed in with the blacktop could easily be as hard or harder than the blacktop. I would have to say the more brittle the object the better since brittle materials vibrate better. Soft objects could be made to generate energy through the compression/decompression action, but as you stated would probably reduce the over-all hardness of the blacktop which would in terms of blacktop probably be a shorter-lived blend as well.

The object here is to improve upon the current recipe, with enough thought it could even improve the duration between re-paving;saving tax-payer dollars.
That would perk a few ears wouldn't it?

[scr4]

There are two ways to generate energy from cars passing on your road: (1) find roads that already flex, and attach generators to them, or (2) make roads more flexible and extract power from them. Option 2 is worthless, because all you've made is an expensive and inefficient gasoline-powered electric generator. Option 1 is not much better - I'd guess it's cheaper to simply reinforce those roads, thus reducing gasoline usage.

[Mangetout]

If you want to exrtract work out of the cars as they pass, then the cars are going to use more fuel in doing that work.

That may not actually be true in practice, because the road surface takes work out of the cars already and converts it to sound waves and heat, however, as scr4 says, devices that work by flexing are going to make it harder for the car to travel over them - like the difference between walking on a hard floor and walking on soft sand.

[David Simmons]

If you want to exrtract work out of the cars as they pass, then the cars are going to use more fuel in doing that work.

That may not actually be true in practice, because the road surface takes work out of the cars already and converts it to sound waves and heat, however, as scr4 says, devices that work by flexing are going to make it harder for the car to travel over them - like the difference between walking on a hard floor and walking on soft sand.I think the OP is trying to recover the energy that is now wasted in moving the ground under a road without changing the road in any way that would make it harder for the cars to move.

Piezoelectric accelerometers under the road might possible supply enough energy to power the roadside emergency phones. It would sure take a lot of them with the consequent miles and miles of wiring. I'm trying to visualize how you would get the voltage high enough to charge a battery and can't at the moment. I think feasibility would be right on the razor's edge.

[kanicbird]

Well if you can put these things where people must slow anyway (downgrades on a hill, toll barriers, deceleration ramps, reduce speed ahead zones and the dreaded school zone), it might be worth it.

[Mangetout]

I'm trying to visualize how you would get the voltage high enough to charge a battery and can't at the moment. I think feasibility would be right on the razor's edge.Charge pumps I suppose, same as you can use with solar cells or even radio waves.

[Phnord Prephect]

Why not buildings, too? Especially taller ones, which tend to sway in the breeze? Just a thought.

[David Simmons]

Charge pumps I suppose, same as you can use with solar cells or even radio waves.I've been out of the game for 24 years so what do these things do? Are the entirely passive?

[Exapno Mapcase]

This is one of those ideas that get suggested over and over again, yet have never been put into practice, even in small demonstration projects. That tells me a lot.

[Padeye]

Why not buildings, too? Especially taller ones, which tend to sway in the breeze? Just a thought.Unless you intentionally let the building sway from the base you'd need to capture motion at the top. You would need an even more rigid structure to do so.

[Rhubarb]

In the mid-to late 70's, during the height of the first oil crisis, an engineer in New York, I think, came up with an idea to collect some energy from cars on roadways. The device was a simple spring-loaded strip running the breadth of the freeway. When a car passed over this strip, it drove a hydraulic pump which spun a turbine to generate electricity. the amount of energy from one car was insignificant, but on a busy freeway, like the Verrazano Narrows bridge, it could add up to quite a bit. The article appeared in Popular Science or Omni (it's been almost 30 years! I have slept since then!) and IIRC, there was funding for a pilot project. I haven't heard a sinfle thing about it since then. I can see a lot of problems with this system, like the amount of wear and tear it would be subjected to, adding a bump to the freeway, the first snowplow to hit it, etc. However, if it could be made to work reliably, these devices could be placed where they could recover wasted potential energy - like on the down-slope of a hill, or on the ramps of parking garages, freeway offramps, etc. The only reason I can think of that something like this doesn't exist is that it isn't practical - the energy generated doesn't pay for the initial investment and upkeep of the device.

[Hombre]

Unless you intentionally let the building sway from the base you'd need to capture motion at the top. You would need an even more rigid structure to do so.
I don't understand why this would need to be so. Why not a pendulum-type device or something akin to a self-winding watch mechanism on the roof?

[David Simmons]

In the mid-to late 70's, during the height of the first oil crisis, an engineer in New York, I think, came up with an idea to collect some energy from cars on roadways. The device was a simple spring-loaded strip running the breadth of the freeway. When a car passed over this strip, it drove a hydraulic pump which spun a turbine to generate electricity. the amount of energy from one car was insignificant, but on a busy freeway, like the Verrazano Narrows bridge, it could add up to quite a bit. The article appeared in Popular Science or Omni (it's been almost 30 years! I have slept since then!) and IIRC, there was funding for a pilot project. I haven't heard a sinfle thing about it since then. I can see a lot of problems with this system, like the amount of wear and tear it would be subjected to, adding a bump to the freeway, the first snowplow to hit it, etc. However, if it could be made to work reliably, these devices could be placed where they could recover wasted potential energy - like on the down-slope of a hill, or on the ramps of parking garages, freeway offramps, etc. The only reason I can think of that something like this doesn't exist is that it isn't practical - the energy generated doesn't pay for the initial investment and upkeep of the device.The amount of energy lost by the car might be insignificant but it exceeds that derived from the generator. This method doesn't capture otherwise wasted energy.

[SpectBrain]

Instead of capturing seismic energy, how about taking advantage of the air turbulence generated by fast moving vehicles, especially big rigs? Energy could be used to power highway lighting systems using high efficiency LED's.

[Fridgemagnet]

I have seen a practical application of seismic cow power. Someone has made a generator powered by cows walking over a cattle grid, and in doing so they generated just enough electricity to power the pump to their water trough. Similar schemes have been touted for human walkways, though I don't know of any that have been implemented. This would, of course, mean stealing energy from pedestrians, but a lot of people could do with losing a bit of weight anyway, and it doesn't cause any extra pollution.

Devices that steal energy from cars are ultimately counter-productive from an efficiency viewpoint, but if they were fitted to pre-existing energy-sappers (like speed humps) then nothing is really lost. BUt I doubt I'd ever see such a scheme implemented; it's feasible, but just too much hassle. We're better off trying to tap wind, wave or solar power. That's genuinely free (infrastructure costs aside...)

[Thinktank]

HAH!- SpectBrain believe it or not I thought of this also, but why come out sounding crazier than I have to.

Besides, I was trying imagine rows of big ugly windmill-type contraptions lining the roads. but yes, constant traffic on a freeway is largely expected so, so would the air the vehicles are stirring up all in the same direction- something like stirring water in a pot; after a little bit, it only requires minimal effort to maintain the swirling motion.

Of course there is no "pot" and this is air not water, just so future posters understand that I am aware of these details. :rolleyes:

Exapno Mapcase just getting people to talk about it is hard enough, let the post be what the post is; a "jam section" for energy conservation ideas. Of course if we keep switching ideas then no real focus happens on one particular thing but who am I to pick at details, heh.

[Thinktank]

I feel like a moron for writing "jam section" so I felt inclined to correct myself. For all those that didn't understand I was leaning towards jam "session" ...*sigh*..coffee.. need coffee..
later guys

[Fear Itself]

Why not a pendulum-type device or something akin to a self-winding watch mechanism on the roof?Sounds like a tuned mass damper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuned_mass_damper#Examples_of_buildings_that_have_dampers)A tuned mass damper is a device mounted in structures to prevent discomfort, damage or outright structural failure by vibration. Typically, the dampers are huge concrete blocks mounted in skyscrapers or other structures, and moved in opposition to the resonant frequency oscillations of the structure by means of springs, fluid or pendulums. Many building already have them, and I suppose some kind of generator could be rigged to recover energy. It would probably change the tuned nature of the damper though, and reduce the anti-sway capability. But if you tuned the damper with the generator in mind, you could recover energy and reduce sway at the same time. The only drawback would be that energy would only be generated during times of significant sway, which might be intermittent, depending on the location.

[David Simmons]

Devices that steal energy from cars are ultimately counter-productive from an efficiency viewpoint, but if they were fitted to pre-existing energy-sappers (like speed humps) then nothing is really lost. BUt I doubt I'd ever see such a scheme implemented; it's feasible, but just too much hassle. We're better off trying to tap wind, wave or solar power. That's genuinely free (infrastructure costs aside...)I think it is questionable whether such systems would work on a commercial basis. Yes, a farmer can recover energy from cows walking over a grate. He installed it does the maintenance on his down time. In order to be commercially useful there would need to be thousands and mayber millions of recovery devices. With all of the attendant electrical connections and all of the devices there would be a lot of maintenace needed. The energy used getting repair crews to and from the repair site could easily use up a lot of the energy that is generated.

[Rhubarb]

The amount of energy lost by the car might be insignificant but it exceeds that derived from the generator. This method doesn't capture otherwise wasted energy.

Not that I think it's practical or feasible, but you will note that I was speaking of placing these in areas where the cars already have stored potential energy that IS wasted, as heat in the brake linings. Parking garages, freeway off ramps, hills, etc. I do understand that on level ground, they would be robbing kinetic energy from the cars which would have to be made up by the car's engine, but once the car has driven up to the 6th level of a parking garage, most of the potential energy it has gained will end up as heat and brake dust.

[David Simmons]

Not that I think it's practical or feasible, but you will note that I was speaking of placing these in areas where the cars already have stored potential energy that IS wasted, as heat in the brake linings. Parking garages, freeway off ramps, hills, etc. I do understand that on level ground, they would be robbing kinetic energy from the cars which would have to be made up by the car's engine, but once the car has driven up to the 6th level of a parking garage, most of the potential energy it has gained will end up as heat and brake dust.Ok, but if the potential energy stored in the car is used to operate a generator while is rolls down the parking or freeway ramp then it isn't available to make the car roll a little further when it hits the level street and the driver has to use the foot pedal just a little sooner than otherwise would be the case.

[Rhubarb]

Ok, but if the potential energy stored in the car is used to operate a generator while is rolls down the parking or freeway ramp then it isn't available to make the car roll a little further when it hits the level street and the driver has to use the foot pedal just a little sooner than otherwise would be the case.
Or a little less brake in order to stop at the light.

I never said it was practical, just that someone had invented it.

[Mangetout]

I've been out of the game for 24 years so what do these things do? Are the entirely passive?
A charge pump is just an electronic circuit that stores up a charge from a low-power source and releases it periodically as brief pulses of higher power. Here (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/gary.huston/index.htm) are some examples of small robots where a charge pump circuit is used to drive motors from a low voltage solar cell.

[David Simmons]

A charge pump is just an electronic circuit that stores up a charge from a low-power source and releases it periodically as brief pulses of higher power.A passive device can't do this. You must mean it delivers the stored energy at a higher voltage than that which stored the charge in the first place.

[Mangetout]

What's the difference between that and what I said?

[samclem]

Exapno Mapcase just getting people to talk about it is hard enough, let the post be what the post is; a "jam section" for energy conservation ideas. Of course if we keep switching ideas then no real focus happens on one particular thing but who am I to pick at details, heh.

Let's continue this jam session over in Great Debates. Factual answers are permitted there and so are opinions, blue-skying, and Rube Goldberg devices.

samclem GQ moderator

[David Simmons]

What's the difference between that and what I said?What you said was, "A charge pump is just an electronic circuit that stores up a charge from a low-power source and releases it periodically as brief pulses of higher power.Power and voltage are not the same thing. Power is the rate of doing work and voltage is the amount of work done in moving electrical charges.

Passive devices cannot raise a low power output to a higher power output.

[Mangetout]

So it's impossible for a constant, low-voltage, low-current source to be chopped up into brief, higher-voltage pulses with more available current?

[David Simmons]

So it's impossible for a constant, low-voltage, low-current source to be chopped up into brief, higher-voltage pulses with more available current?It is impossible in a passive device for the product of input low voltage*low current over any period of time to be less than the output high voltage*high current over the same period of time.

If you input 1 volt and 1 milliamp for 1000 seconds the output can't be more than 1 joule no matter how high the output voltage.

My objection is to the statement that the device transforms the output from a low power to a higher power.

[Mangetout]

It is impossible in a passive device for the product of input low voltage*low current over any period of time to be less than the output high voltage*high current over the same period of time.I did explicitly state that it wasn't delivered over the same period of time.

[David Simmons]

I did explicitly state that it wasn't delivered over the same period of time.Aha light comes. We've been talking about different things. I missed your statement about different times.

Yes, you can trickle charge for a month and then deliver a whomping surge for a microsecond.

[David Simmons]

However, I still think that "low power" to 'higher power" is a tad misleading as a bald statement without a lot of caveats.

[Mangetout]

Fair enough. Suffice it to say that charge-pumping devices do something like that; accumulating a comparatively useless trickle and delivering it as brief pulses at a useful level.

[David Simmons]

This particular charge pump circuit is what used to be known as a voltage multiplier (http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/appnote_number/2026/ln/en") back in the Jurassic Age.