There is no Santa

[Johnny Angel]

Evil Johnny Angel, whom you may recognize by his goatee, thinks this is hillarious:

http://www.ldnews.com/fastsearchresults/ci_3334327

However, Chaotic Neutral Johnny Angel is merely saddened. Personally, it burns me that people still lie to their children about Santa Claus. It burns me even more that when confonted about it, parents fall back to the cowardly horseshit story about Santa being the spirit of Christmas love and brotherhood and Jesus-shaped sugar cookies. Of course, most adults who tell this lie won't admit it's a crock of shit no matter how many times you shock them in the nipples with a busted table lamp. They can't, otherwise they would have to admit that they have been complicit in a conspiracy to play a prank on millions of children worldwide and later solace themselves that lies make childhood better.

That is to say, I'm completely against this Santa Claus bullshit. However, I don't think this lady should have taken it upon herself to blow the whistle. That lie is between the parents and the kid. Also, between the parents and Satan, but that's another matter.

If I ever have children, here's what I'm going to tell them: There is no Santa. The people who tell you there's a Santa are lying, but they think it's a good lie. They think they're lying because it will make you happy, but they're really lying because it makes them happy. But if you talk about the truth, they're going to assume there's something wrong with you, claiming that if you weren't psychologically damaged, you'd want to believe the lie. The best thing is to lie right back. Pretend you believe. Or don't. Fuck 'em, they lied to you. If they've got a problem tell them to come talk to me.

[CynicalGabe]

Where can I find Jesus-shaped sugar cookies?

That lady make me laugh, but she makes the children cry.

She really didn't have to tell them Santa died,

but

[interject]
I can't rhyme for shit, so I'll just say:

Teacher is a bitch.

[CynicalGabe]

Hit post too early.


“Those same children are going to know someday that what their parents taught them is false,” she ex-plained. “There is no Santa Claus.”

Get a grip, woman. You think it's your job to correct the untruths parents tell their kids? What next? That road reflectors do not, in fact, have a little man inside with a flashlight who turns it on when he sees cars coming?

Shit, compared to the myriad of things parents lie to their kids about, Santa Claus is pretty fucking harmless.

[dbuzman]

but it goes against my conscience to teach something which I know to be false to children, who are impressionable

I did not tell the students Santa Claus was dead,” she explained. “I said there was a man named Nickolas of Myrna who died in 343 A.D., upon whom the Santa Claus myth (is based).

And she doesn't think that at least some of these children she herself describes as impressionable might just hear that as "Santa is dead"?


What a moron.

[JohnT]

What a heartless bitch.

[lissener]

Read some of the recent reviews of her very silly looking (and apparently self published) book (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0965695573/qid=1135583085/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-3850386-1917607?n=507846&s=books&v=glance) at Amazon.

A review of her other self-published book might be revealing: "Theresa writes with a unique conversational style that may be off-putting to some, and she makes frequent mention of her devotion to God."

Hmm. Wonder if "truth" was her primary motivator, or was it possibly dismissive attitude toward belief systems that differ from hers? Not that Santa Claus is a belief system. Only, maybe she's, like, one of those people who don't have sex because it might lead to dancing. Aren't they all anti-Santa and Easter Bunny? All "secularization of Xmas" and junk?

I'm just sayin.

[Guinastasia]

Oh shit. This seems to happen every year, doesn't it?

No matter how you feel about kids believing in Santa (and I think that the time to tell them the truth is when they start asking), you don't spoil it for other families. I think I cried for ten minutes after my mom answered that yes, it was her and my father who put out the presents, then went back to my toys. (I continued to semi-believe in the Easter Bunny, just for fun)


What a fucking cunt.

[jayjay]

Santa Claus is dead (http://www.queenofwands.net/d/20051006.html)...

[Seven]

Since the issue involves personnel, Bell said Monday, there is little he can say about the incident, adding that it has not been determined if any disciplinary action is warranted against Farrisi.


Disciplinary action?!?! For teaching the truth?

What the hell is wrong with the USA?

I say good for the teacher. If parents want to lie to their children about magic elfs that break into the house at night and leave gifts is their business but a school is supposed to educate children about known truths. A fairy reindeer with a red nose spawned from an American advert campain and a fat dude in a red suit is NOT a known truth.

Most children figure it out as they get older and the parents never have to deal with it. I think the parents are just pissed because the children made them face their lie.

[Harborwolf]

Disciplinary action?!?! For teaching the truth?

What the hell is wrong with the USA?

I say good for the teacher. If parents want to lie to their children about magic elfs that break into the house at night and leave gifts is their business but a school is supposed to educate children about known truths. A fairy reindeer with a red nose spawned from an American advert campain and a fat dude in a red suit is NOT a known truth.

Most children figure it out as they get older and the parents never have to deal with it. I think the parents are just pissed because the children made them face their lie.
Quackers. It's not this ladys place to go stirring up a bunch of crap. It's certainly not the place of a substitute music teacher. I'm all for telling the truth and fighting ignorance and all that blah blah blah, but this isn't some great truth you need to go spilling out to a bunch of kids. This isn't some great and harmful untruth that needs exposing.

Personally, I think some of the parents are upset because their kids came home from school crying.

[EvilGhandi]

Is anyone out there (and I mean out there) really believe that children are damaged by santa?

Holey fucking christ on a fucking vibrating pogo stick. When my boy was a little one, I had him climb a ladder to the roof and I'd pass him a pan of water and a couple of carrots for santas reindeer.

That, In my estimation, is far more dangerous than him beliving in santa.

But you know what? I was raising a man. A boy I knew some day would grow up and have to fend for himself.

If your kids break down and sob the first time they found out you lied, you raised pussies.

Ya know what, if you flick a light off and on it won't make the bulb blow. If you dont finish your dinner, no one in the third world will have a clue.

If you raise your kids to be hyper sensitive little fucks, then guess what they are going to be hyper sensitive little fucks.

Just like you.

So knock it off.

Oh and merry Christmass

[SolGrundy]

Disciplinary action?!?! For teaching the truth?

What the hell is wrong with the USA?

I say good for the teacher. If parents want to lie to their children about magic elfs that break into the house at night and leave gifts is their business but a school is supposed to educate children about known truths. A fairy reindeer with a red nose spawned from an American advert campain and a fat dude in a red suit is NOT a known truth.

Most children figure it out as they get older and the parents never have to deal with it. I think the parents are just pissed because the children made them face their lie.
What an enormous pile of steaming, self-serving bullshit.

I suppose you're not entirely to blame, seeing as how you're a victim of your environment. And at least you didn't actually come out and cry "this board is about fighting ignorance!!!!!"

But implicit in that ignorance-fighting is the responsibility to actually have a clue as to what you're talking about. The story in question was a music class for first-graders, not The Practical Reality of Gift Delivery. And the bitch in question did not respond truthfully to a question from one of her students; she interjected her own beliefs into a poem in a fit of self-important imagination-crushing ego masturbation.

If you're so hell-bent on delivering known truths, why don't you dispense with the rationalizations and actually speak the truth: that you know what's best for children better than their parents? If you could speak the truth, then we could all share the Real truth with you, which is that you don't know a good god damn of what the truth is outside of your own closed-off little self-righteous, self-indulgent mindset.

You want to know what the hell is wrong with the USA? What's wrong is that it's filled with vociferous cock-knockers who are so fucking arrogant that they think their beliefs are more important than anyone else's and they'll use any rationalization they can to impose their beliefs on everyone else.

That includes any fucking soulless halfwit who would tell a first-grader that there's no Santa Claus and then pat himself on the back for "spreading the truth."

[clairobscur]

That lie is between the parents and the kid. Also, between the parents and Satan, but that's another matter.
.


You know, Satan doesn't rea... err...nothing, forget about it.

[clairobscur]

If your kids break down and sob the first time they found out you lied, you raised pussies.



Yeah, sure. A real manly man doesn't cry. Even a 4 yo real manly man.

[Johnny Angel]

clairobscur wrote:

You know, Satan doesn't rea... err...nothing, forget about it.

Pffft. I know Satan exists. Who else would be hiding WMDs for Saddam?

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

But, Santa Claus is dead! (CLICK LINK HERE) (http://brainsoup.net/pictures/poorsanta.jpg)

I'm a savage.

A gleeful savage.

[EvilGhandi]

clairobscur

"Yeah, sure. A real manly man doesn't cry. Even a 4 yo real manly man. "

What in the hell? You have four year old men at your house?

Or were you being sarcastic? I really can't tell. From your post either you have grown men that are four years old sobbing like pussies or you cant handle a child that is four years old asking if there is a santa.

[tomndebb]

Personally, it burns me that people still lie to their children about Santa Claus. Disciplinary action?!?! For teaching the truth?
. . .
If parents want to lie to their children about magic elfs that break into the house at night and leave gifts is their business but a school is supposed to educate children about known truths.
This is silly.

Letting kids believe in Santa, the Tooth Fairy, and other cultural beings is not "lying." It is part of the cultural experience of growing up. The kid who gradually begins to doubt that Santa is real and then finally realizes that it is a story is exercising powers of discernment and the final realization is a milestone for the kid who can look on it as a turning point in growing up. It is not a major milestone, but it is a minor rite of passage in which the kid can say "I used to believe that, but now I know better--I am growing up."

Now, I would agree that parents who go all out to present Santa as real, long after the kids should have been growing out of that, or who make belief in Santa some sort of test of the child, (If you don't believe in Santa, he won't bring you gifts.), is behaving stupidly.

However, having a few cultural figures that little kids can enjoy and then get a second enjoyment as they "figure out" that it is a story is not "lying."

[FaerieBeth]

You want to know what the hell is wrong with the USA? What's wrong is that it's filled with vociferous cock-knockers who are so fucking arrogant that they think their beliefs are more important than anyone else's and they'll use any rationalization they can to impose their beliefs on everyone else.

That includes any fucking soulless halfwit who would tell a first-grader that there's no Santa Claus and then pat himself on the back for "spreading the truth."

I'm putting this on my holiday cards next year. :D

[Grits and Hard Toast]

Disciplinary action?!?! For teaching the truth?

What the hell is wrong with the USA?

I say good for the teacher. If parents want to lie to their children about magic elfs that break into the house at night and leave gifts is their business but a school is supposed to educate children about known truths. A fairy reindeer with a red nose spawned from an American advert campain and a fat dude in a red suit is NOT a known truth.

Most children figure it out as they get older and the parents never have to deal with it. I think the parents are just pissed because the children made them face their lie.

I personally would not tell my kids Santa was real, and encourage that belief. But I would realize that put me in the minority and if I was to start telling other people's kids their parents were lying to them, I would know there would be some very upset parents.

What bothers me most about this woman, was she went out of her way to tell the kids Santa didn't exist. They weren't questioning her about. All she had to do was read a popular Christmas poem. She chose to interupt the poem by adding her own comments of how it wasn't true.

I don't buy her reason, “The poem has great literary value, but it goes against my conscience to teach something which I know to be false to children, who are impressionable,”

Her assignment was to read the story. That is all she had to do. I am guessing 99% of the stories read to kids at that age are about made up characters. Would she have had a need to point out while reading Goldilocks and the Three Bears, that bears really don't live in houses, that they don't really eat porridge in bowls, they don't really sleep in beds? No she would simply read the story and move on the the next assignment. She could have done that with this story.

I might feel differently if the children had brought up the questions, and she didn't want to out right lie and say it was true. But this wasn't the case, she she went out of her way to tell the kids their parents lie to them when they say Santa brings the presents.

She had to know this would cause problems. She even admits she considered talking to the school's administration about her concerns, but she chose instead to read the story and point out how it wasn't true.

To me that shows a willful disrespect to the parents, and the school. I would think her actions justify the school not ever trusting her judgement again, and not using her again as a substitute teacher.

And if she was to try to claim she didn't know it would be such a big deal, I would be even more apt to not ever hire her again, thinking she doesn't have a sufficient thought process to be trusted with the care of small children.

My guess is that she did this on purpose, knowing the story would make news, and give her publicity. She probably thought it would help her develope a base of other parents who don't think it is right to lie to kids about Santa, who might by her books in the future. But I think it backfired, because even people like me who agree with her stance, feel she went overboard, and wouldn't want to buy any books she would write.

[Nic2004]

Thank you SolGrundy for putting it to the words I couldn't find.
If my 4yo son came home from pre-K crying because a teacher (much less a Sub) said this to him I think I'd have driven down to the school and broken her nose. Right, wrong, don't care. It's not your fucking place to make these decisions for my family. Get a hold of your fucking self, you self-important, self-seving fuck. You try to focus on your job and I'll handle mine.
Bitch.
I will be having this discussion with all his futre teachers about what falls under their jurisdiction and what does not.

[The Flying Dutchman]

And she doesn't think that at least some of these children she herself describes as impressionable might just hear that as "Santa is dead"?


What a moron.I don't consider myself impressionable, but to hear that St Nick died in in the 4th century , I can only conclude that Santa is dead.

Let me add that as a parent, I could get really upset if a fuckin teacher told my kid that I was a liar. She should be fired !

[kidchameleon]

I wonder if she lets kids know that many horses end up as dog food, too.

[Uvula Donor]

You want to know what the hell is wrong with the USA? What's wrong is that it's filled with vociferous cock-knockers who are so fucking arrogant that they think their beliefs are more important than anyone else's and they'll use any rationalization they can to impose their beliefs on everyone else.

That includes any fucking soulless halfwit who would tell a first-grader that there's no Santa Claus and then pat himself on the back for "spreading the truth."

:: shakes SolGrundy's hand and walks off, whistling ::

Thank you. Fucking A.

[DianaG]

Why would anyone feel the need to ruin Christmas for a couple of dozen four year olds? I wonder if she spends her spare time cursing rainbows and kicking puppies.

[Plynck]

"And the next time you talk to my wife like that, you'll get worse. She cried for an hour. It isn't enough she slaves teaching your stupid kids how to read and write, and you have to bawl her out, eh."

"You get out of here, Mr. Welch!"

"Now wait. I want to pay for my drink."

[Zebra]

A Visit from Saint Nickolas has great literary value?


Now that's a myth!

[Bricker]

Disciplinary action?!?! For teaching the truth?

What the hell is wrong with the USA?

I say good for the teacher. If parents want to lie to their children about magic elfs that break into the house at night and leave gifts is their business but a school is supposed to educate children about known truths. A fairy reindeer with a red nose spawned from an American advert campain and a fat dude in a red suit is NOT a known truth.

Most children figure it out as they get older and the parents never have to deal with it. I think the parents are just pissed because the children made them face their lie.

Hmm.

Well, it's also the truth that men and women have sexual intercourse to make babies. No objections to explaining THAT to the kids, right? And it's the truth that men cheat on thier wives, and women on their husbands, by having sexual intercourse with other people. I assume you're in favor of explaining that to children. Also that sometimes women give men oral sex, which means that they put the man's penis in thier mouths and move their heads until the man's penis emits semen. That should be fun to explain, since it's the truth. And it's also true that some women are so desperate for crack cocaine that they will get into a car with a man they don't know and perform an act of the aforementioned oral sex for $10.

Yeah, truth! Bring it on! These kids need to know it, and NOW.

[Hamlet]

Hmm.

Well, it's also the truth that men and women have sexual intercourse to make babies. No objections to explaining THAT to the kids, right? And it's the truth that men cheat on thier wives, and women on their husbands, by having sexual intercourse with other people. I assume you're in favor of explaining that to children. Also that sometimes women give men oral sex, which means that they put the man's penis in thier mouths and move their heads until the man's penis emits semen. That should be fun to explain, since it's the truth. And it's also true that some women are so desperate for crack cocaine that they will get into a car with a man they don't know and perform an act of the aforementioned oral sex for $10.

Yeah, truth! Bring it on! These kids need to know it, and NOW.Thanks. Now I have an image of Santa blowing some John for more crack. Ouch.

[mhendo]

Well, i think the teacher in question could certainly have shown a little more consideration for other people's feelings, and for the way that other parents want to raise their kids. She certainly seemed to take some sort of vicious pleasure in breaking the bad news.

I still think that any disciplinary action against her would be ridiculous.

Just out of interest, what course of action would people advocate for a teacher if a six year old kid came up and asked, point blank, "Is Santa real?"

I did love this line from the article:Farrisi doesn’t believe in Santa Claus, and she doesn’t think anyone else should, either.The reporter makes it sound as if there might actually be a Santa Claus, as if the issue is still up for debate among adults as well as children.

[Anastasaeon]

That's right! There is no Santa! Let's take away Sesame Street and all those cartoons, too! That's none of it real! Puppets don't talk! Moving pictures are not real people! Educational? Pah! Replace cartoons with real people!

Fictional books? Burn 'em. Not real. Imagination? Fantastical garbage! Teach them only the cold, hard facts of life, right out of the birth canal! "Shut up, kid, stop your screaming! You're with us, now, and it's time you learned the truth. You will fail at most of the things you try, everybody lies to you, people are out there right now having unprotected sex for crack and don't you ever, ever forget this one: There is no Santa Claus! And if you ever believe in something I don't, I'll reason it out of you somehow, or spend my life rolling my eyes behind your back."

Damn. I miss my Mom. I'm going to go call her.


*** - This post is not directed at anyone in particular. There are probably reasonable arguments against most of my hyperbolic licence-laced post. I was just on a roll.

[JeffB]

Yeah, truth! Bring it on! These kids need to know it, and NOW.You can't handle the truth!

[lissener]

I still think that any disciplinary action against her would be ridiculous.Well, unless they can determine that her real agenda was to push her own possibly fundamentalist beliefs on the children. Not a given; just a possibility raised by her writings, IMHO. And a hurdle to prove certainly. I'm just sayin; she doesn't sound as wide-eyed innocent as she's trying to come off.

And I fully agree that it's not up to a stranger to decide when you will initiate your children to the grownup truths we must all encounter. It's a good thing "babies come from storks" didn't come up in her classes. Or would the champions of truth in this thread be insisting that she had every right to disseminate (eww) such truths to a bunch of first graders without their parents' permission?

[ArrMatey!]

I dunno. I think what the woman did was harsh, but...

I've never understood specifically lying to children. Why? Why can't you just say, "In honor of this man, who did great things, we give gifts like he did."? There... Covers it, doesn't it? And makes it a bit more personal. I'd rather love my family than a mythical figure.

I was born and raised jewish. When I was in kindergarden, my folks said to me, "A lot of your friends believe in santa. He doesn't really exist, but there's no reason to make them feel bad by telling them that, okay?"
And it was okay. I didn't say anything, I felt a bit smarter, and hey, we all had a good season. We invited our neighbors over for channukah, they invited us over for xmas, and I got a cool color-forms set. Santa wasn't debunked, but neither was he pushed.

I dunno. I think a lot of this is blown out of proportion. But I still don't get the lying in the first place.

[Cat Whisperer]

A few points I'm having a hard time with - number one, is this supposed to be a serious news story by a serious journalist? Maybe Rory Schuler should take a few journalism classes, and learn how to cut back on the purple prose. Number two - Mrs. Schaeffer was off on leave for the complication from birth 18 months later? Holy heck, those are some complications. Third, who does this woman think she is, Karl Rove? (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/43691)

[Polycarp]

A few points I'm having a hard time with - number one, is this supposed to be a serious news story by a serious journalist? Maybe Rory Schuler should take a few journalism classes, and learn how to cut back on the purple prose. Number two - Mrs. Schaeffer was off on leave for the complication from birth 18 months later? Holy heck, those are some complications. Third, who does this woman think she is, Karl Rove? (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/43691)

It's a feature story, not hard-breaking reportage, from a small-town daily. (If the active membership of this board all moved to Lebanon, we could elect Cecil as Mayor by a landslide.) It's handled with a light touch, and a focus on the kids' feelings, not an effort to provide "fair and objective" reporting.

It also doesn't attribute particular religious views to Ms. Farrisi -- in fact, her attitude is much more the sort of thing seen over in Great Debates by a certain sort of person who feels compelled to Evangelize Against the Myths They've Been Feeding Us. (I do think Sol Grundy's rant has great and lasting value, though, and would like to see it slung at the next person to come along saying how deteriorating values are ruining America, for whatever reason.)

Finally, Bricker's ironic paean to age-appropriateness in teaching deserves applause.

And Ms. Farrissi? Any sincere Christian would know that St. Nicholas is in fact not dead, but with God along with the other saints. Not that you should have said that, either. Perhaps you might feel better about "Santa stories" if you removed the North Pole from your rectum.

[Guinastasia]

Thanks. Now I have an image of Santa blowing some John for more crack. Ouch.


Well, what do you "I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus" was all about?

;)


Honestly, raise your hand if being "lied" to about Santa damaged you for life?

Like I said, I shed some tears, then I asked my mom if we could have french fries for dinner.

Let's get some perspective here, people.

[Johnny Angel]

tomndebb wrote:

This is silly.

Letting kids believe in Santa, the Tooth Fairy, and other cultural beings is not "lying." It is part of the cultural experience of growing up.

You said it, brother. What kind of knucklehead puts a moral value on lying to children? These are cultural icons, like covetous jew or the welfare mother who eats steak and drives a Cadillac. What's the harm in that?

The kid who gradually begins to doubt that Santa is real and then finally realizes that it is a story is exercising powers of discernment and the final realization is a milestone for the kid who can look on it as a turning point in growing up. It is not a major milestone, but it is a minor rite of passage in which the kid can say "I used to believe that, but now I know better--I am growing up."

Putting the satirical mask aside for the moment, there probably is something to be said for the object lesson that people aren't to be trusted, even your parents. We fill our world with personifications that are meant to instill desired behavior and attitudes, and we have established a starter myth around which a child may build cynicism like a pearl around a bit of sand, ready to face the lies that are to come.

[Kamino Neko]

Like I said, I shed some tears, then I asked my mom if we could have french fries for dinner.

I didn't even shed any tears...I just didn't bother writing a letter to Santa after I figured it out.

About 2 years after I figured it out, because I decided to hold onto Santa for the fun of it for a while longer.

Hell I'd still do it if I didn't go through a period of caring what other people thought.

[GorillaMan]

Huh? This story is about six- and seven-year-olds. If a kid that old hasn't worked out that the presents didn't arrive via reindeer, they're gonna struggle with every other piece of logic that comes their way. d&r

[tomndebb]

What kind of knucklehead puts a moral value on lying to children?Alternatively, what sort of utterly ignorant person in 2005 still believes the Mrs. Grundy (no relation to Sol) view of the world that actually thinks that engaging in fantasy is the same as lying?

As I have already pointed out, the discovery that various imaginary gift-givers are, indeed, imaginary, is part of a normal and healthy growing experience.
Just as it is stupid and hateful to sit a kid down in the corner and harangue the child until s/he admits that s/he has no imaginary friend, it is a sign of an over-literal lack of imagination on the part of an adult to claim that Santa and his buddies are a "lie."

No one should be forced to tell children that there is a Santa/tooth-fairy/Easter Bunny/Kachina/whatever, but the story is already in the culture and it is not "lying" to tell the story until the child figures out the "truth."

[lissener]

Since when does "childhood imagination" equal "lying"?

You kneejerk contrarians who want to defend this jerk for being a "champion of truth" need to do a little research on the value that imagination has in human cognitive development.

Imagination in small children should be encouraged, not quashed. And when it is time to "put away childish things," that's between the child and the parents. What this teacher did was a massive invasion of privacy and she should be severely disciplined. I hope some of the parents sue her out of a career.

[Manda JO]

Since when does "childhood imagination" equal "lying"?

You kneejerk contrarians who want to defend this jerk for being a "champion of truth" need to do a little research on the value that imagination has in human cognitive development.

Imagination in small children should be encouraged, not quashed. And when it is time to "put away childish things," that's between the child and the parents. What this teacher did was a massive invasion of privacy and she should be severely disciplined. I hope some of the parents sue her out of a career.

I don't think anyone has defended her: a few people have expressed discomfort at the idea of the Santa Claus story (and to me that just suggests that people are reflecting on cultural norms, not just adopting them, and that's a Good Thing), but they have all said that it's a matter between parent and child: other people have quibbled over the details of what, if any action should be taken, but no one has defended her actions out right.

[Johnny Angel]

tomndebb wrote:

Just as it is stupid and hateful to sit a kid down in the corner and harangue the child until s/he admits that s/he has no imaginary friend, it is a sign of an over-literal lack of imagination on the part of an adult to claim that Santa and his buddies are a "lie."

Indulging in a personal, idiosyncratic fantasy is another matter altogether. Now, if my child had an imaginary friend that was just a copy of one out of a book, then I'd harangue the kid, but only out of concern.

You kneejerk contrarians who want to defend this jerk for being a "champion of truth" need to do a little research on the value that imagination has in human cognitive development.

I'll buy that imagination has a function in cognitive development. But I think you're giving the child way too little credit if you think you have to feed the kid a lie and get your whole society to play along. If a kid's got any imagination at all, it'll come out no matter what you do. If not, there's always middle management.

[someone447]

When I was little, I enjoyed the Santa myth. Did I ever get mad at my parents for lying about it? Probably, but the anticipation of Santa getting me something and going to visit him in the mall was just so much fun. Those were my favorite christmases, probably until I have my own kids and I see the look on their face when they see what "santa" got them.
I remember my parents telling us, Santa isn't going to come while you are awake. Me, and my little brother and sister would all sleep in the same room. We would stay up all night trying to hear santa. We would wake up at 6 o'clock(if not earlier) and run into my parents room yelling, "Santa's been here, Santa's been here!!!" Honestly, what is wrong with that?

[koeeoaddi]

Since when does "childhood imagination" equal "lying"?

You kneejerk contrarians who want to defend this jerk for being a "champion of truth" need to do a little research on the value that imagination has in human cognitive development.

Imagination in small children should be encouraged, not quashed. And when it is time to "put away childish things," that's between the child and the parents. What this teacher did was a massive invasion of privacy and she should be severely disciplined. I hope some of the parents sue her out of a career.
A reindeer cookie for lissener. I agree with everything but the lawsuit. There has to be another way. Too bad John Candy's dead. ;)

[Strinka]

Putting the satirical mask aside for the moment, there probably is something to be said for the object lesson that people aren't to be trusted, even your parents. We fill our world with personifications that are meant to instill desired behavior and attitudes, and we have established a starter myth around which a child may build cynicism like a pearl around a bit of sand, ready to face the lies that are to come.You know, this makes sense. But... It doesn't happen. My parents indulged in the Santa myth, but when I found out, I didn't lose trust in them or anything like that. And I don't know anyone who did. It would seem that kids are smarter than you're assuming and can separate an important lie from an unimportant one.

[Polycarp]

Since when does "childhood imagination" equal "lying"?

You kneejerk contrarians who want to defend this jerk for being a "champion of truth" need to do a little research on the value that imagination has in human cognitive development.

Imagination in small children should be encouraged, not quashed. And when it is time to "put away childish things," that's between the child and the parents. What this teacher did was a massive invasion of privacy and she should be severely disciplined. I hope some of the parents sue her out of a career.

This is very well said. My "son" and his wife, mother, and I are engaged in a conspiracy with regard to his kids, with the best of intentions. We normally give them age-appropriate truths, but every so often will throw in a "zinger," and they're aware that we do just that. The game is for them to identify and disprove/debunk the zingers. The idea is to teach them critical thinking and not to depend on the accuracy of "authority." And they love it; it's an element of growing up to catch us in one of the "zingers" and challenge it. (Most recently: found and proved that "buffalo wings" are chicken wings with a hot sauce from Buffalo, NY, not vestigial wings grown by plains bison (they clip them off the buffalo in the zoo). his dad and I got a 10-year-old with arms akimbo and a mock-exasperated look on his face with that one.)

[tomndebb]

if you think you have to feed the kid a lie and get your whole society to play along It is not a "lie," it is a story. Your insistence on using the word "lie" indicates that you are pretty much trapped in a world view that insists on a black-and-white perception of reality. I'm not sure why you would choose to align yourself with the most dour and uncompromising of the most extreme religious fanatics, but I guess if that is what makes you happy...

[Johnny Angel]

tomndebb wrote:

It is not a "lie," it is a story.

Did that line work on your parents? Because I got my hide tanned for trying it. To their narrow-minded way of thinking, if I said something I knew wasn't true and I expected to be believed, it was a lie. Even apparently if I was aware the truth would come out later and no harm would be done. I'm going to call them up right now and bawl them out for their religious fanaticism. What the hell kinds of values were they trying to teach, feeding us this line about so-called "lies."

[tomndebb]

Well, if you were raised the way you now portray your youth, that would explain your inability to distinguish between lies and stories, today.

[Johnny Angel]

tomndebb wrote:

Well, if you were raised the way you now portray your youth, that would explain your inability to distinguish between lies and stories, today.

When I was a child we couldn't afford "lies" or "stories." We had bullshit, horseshit and crocks of shit -- and we had to get up at four in the morning and sort them out before we went to school.

[Harborwolf]

When I was a child we couldn't afford "lies" or "stories." We had bullshit, horseshit and crocks of shit -- and we had to get up at four in the morning and sort them out before we went to school.
Let me guess. Uphill both ways through thirty feet of snow? :p

[Bren_Cameron]

Well, if you were raised the way you now portray your youth, that would explain your inability to distinguish between lies and stories, today.


Interestingly, though, Santa is not presented as a "story." If it were, why would it be such a big deal for someone to say, "you know, Santa isn't real." Or, "You know, St. Nicholas died 1500 years ago." The response would be, "Yeah, so." Because if it's just a story, or just a nice game of pretend, it's not going to be ruined by someone pointing out that it is, in fact, pretend. When my kids are playing pretend, with a story, and I say something like, "You know, don't you, that you can't really fly?" they don't cry or say I've ruined the game. They say, "Yeah." And then they go on with the game.

But all too often the response is "why are you ruining Christmas?" or "Why can't you let kids have their fun?" I've known parents, personally, to be in extreme anxiety over someone letting the "secret" slip in front of their kids. If it was just a story, why is a kid in tears at the thought Santa is dead? Why go to all the trouble to convince the kids? It's intended to deceive, that's the truth of the matter. And nobody is going to be scarred for life by it, and no doubt the parents who engage in it think it's cute. But it's still a lie, harmless or not.

I don't go around evangelizing against Santa, and what other families do for their own traditions is their own business. But it does trouble me that when it's culturally common and accepted to tell kids something that isn't true, it's "just a story" even though adults become distressed at the idea of kids learning that it is, in fact, pretend. Sorry, it's not "just a story" if it's going to upset your kid to find out that it's not true.

[SolGrundy]

Does anyone have a link to another version of the story? The one linked to here is the easiest to find, and it's clearly a human-interest thing loaded with the crying children and crushed dreams and such. But a search on Google doesn't give any other descriptions of the actual events, just a bunch of blogs either saying "She killed Christmas!!!" or "She is a Champion Of Truth!!!"

A friend insists he read a version saying that she was responding to a question from a student, not volunteering her "truth." That doesn't change the core objection, but it would mitigate her involvement a little bit, turning her from a self-righteous bitch into someone who has no class and doesn't know how to handle children.

[Plynck]

Read some of the recent reviews of her very silly looking (and apparently self published) book (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0965695573/qid=1135583085/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-3850386-1917607?n=507846&s=books&v=glance) at Amazon.

A review of her other self-published book might be revealing: "Theresa writes with a unique conversational style that may be off-putting to some, and she makes frequent mention of her devotion to God."

Hmm. Wonder if "truth" was her primary motivator, or was it possibly dismissive attitude toward belief systems that differ from hers? Not that Santa Claus is a belief system. Only, maybe she's, like, one of those people who don't have sex because it might lead to dancing. Aren't they all anti-Santa and Easter Bunny? All "secularization of Xmas" and junk?

I'm just sayin.With the current controversy over the "War on Christmas", I have just a bit of schadenfreude in contemplating the stance that the Religious Right would take on this. This is no win for them; they are party poopers if they support her, or else endorsing the commercialization of Christmas if they do not. The funny thing is that the Christian religion is based upon a belief in miracles as equally fantastic as that of Santa Claus. The history goes back a little further, that's all.

Raised in a Christian household, for those who were wondering, and believed in Santa too. Never saw much point in the Easter Bunny, though...

[Guinastasia]

tomndebb wrote:



Did that line work on your parents? Because I got my hide tanned for trying it. To their narrow-minded way of thinking, if I said something I knew wasn't true and I expected to be believed, it was a lie. Even apparently if I was aware the truth would come out later and no harm would be done. I'm going to call them up right now and bawl them out for their religious fanaticism. What the hell kinds of values were they trying to teach, feeding us this line about so-called "lies."


I'm betting you were a blast at birthday parties when you were a kid.

:rolleyes:

[Johnny Angel]

Harborwolf wrote:

Let me guess. Uphill both ways through thirty feet of snow?

You had snow? Where I come from it rained ninja stars every day.

Bren_Cameron wrote:

Interestingly, though, Santa is not presented as a "story." If it were, why would it be such a big deal for someone to say, "you know, Santa isn't real." Or, "You know, St. Nicholas died 1500 years ago."

That's a good point. Does the "Just a Story" defense hold up given that people perjure themselves so deeply over it -- even planting trumped-up evidence?

Guinastasia wrote:

I'm betting you were a blast at birthday parties when you were a kid.

Hmmmm. So, I take it you weren't?

[lissener]

. . . Does the "Just a Story" defense hold up given that people perjure themselves so deeply over it -- even planting trumped-up evidence? . . .
Dude, you are seriously wacked.

[BlackKnight]

I don't see what all the vitriol is about. On the one hand, I think what the teacher said was off-topic and unnecessary. On the other hand, I don't think it's worth getting seriously upset about.

Basically, I think the teacher should have known how upset people would be and therefore, since there really isn't anything significant gained by telling the kiddies that Santa isn't real, should have refrained from doing so. But the fact that she gave factual, non-harmful information to children shouldn't cause parents to get their undies in a twist. Schools do not have an obligation to avoid puncturing myths that parents teach their children. Santa is no different from Creationism, flat-earth theories, or stories about Washington chopping down a cherry tree in this regard.

If they want, parents can tell their children, "Well, obviously she thinks Santa isn't real because she's such a naughty lady that he doesn't bother to visit her house."

[CynicalGabe]

I should have known that fucker Karl Rove (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/43691) was behind it!!!

[ShibbOleth]

I was born and raised jewish. When I was in kindergarden, my folks said to me, "A lot of your friends believe in santa. He doesn't really exist, but there's no reason to make them feel bad by telling them that, okay?"
And it was okay. I didn't say anything, I felt a bit smarter, and hey, we all had a good season. We invited our neighbors over for channukah, they invited us over for xmas, and I got a cool color-forms set. Santa wasn't debunked, but neither was he pushed.

I dunno. I think a lot of this is blown out of proportion. But I still don't get the lying in the first place.

He he. In our old neighborhood, all of the kids' playmates were Jewish. So we had to explain why they got Christmas presents and the Jewish kids didn't. I quelled some evil urgings and went with "that's not their tradition". We play along with the Santa gig but let the kids work it out for themselves. They are currently in the stage where logic is struggling with wish fulfillment. It's sort of fun and sort of wistful, like any part of the growing up process.

I sort of put this incident as akin to "teaching" atheism or agnosticism to Christian kids. My beliefs and what I do at home is immaterial. If a student or child asked me if there was a god, I'd hope to be discreet enough to tell them that's a question for their parents or clergy, despite my own beliefs. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the teacher is EITHER a hardcore Christian OR Atheist who believes that her truth is the only truth.

[lissener]

Puts me in mind of a client I had once. A Jewish guy. He'd hired a young couple, college kids, as groundskeepers/babysitters, etc. Lots of money; single dad; big house. When it came time for his daughter's bat mitzvah, she said she didn't want to go through with it. Her babysitters had been telling her that she would go to hell if she embraced the Jewish faith, rather than accepting Jesus into her heart as her own personal savior.

You gotta admire such champions of truth.

[Cat Whisperer]

I should have known that fucker Karl Rove (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/43691) was behind it!!!
Do you people read ANYTHING (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6936372&postcount=35)I post? It's like I'm sitting here at my computer in my basement, typing away, hitting "submit reply", and all my carefully chosen words are just sailing off to god knows where...

[EddyTeddyFreddy]

... Did someone say something? I could almost swear I heard someone talking about.... Oh, what was it again?

[tomndebb]

Do you people read ANYTHING (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6936372&postcount=35)I post? It's like I'm sitting here at my computer in my basement, typing away, hitting "submit reply", and all my carefully chosen words are just sailing off to god knows where...lissener? Is that you?

[Tuckerfan]

This is very well said. My "son" and his wife, mother, and I are engaged in a conspiracy with regard to his kids, with the best of intentions. We normally give them age-appropriate truths, but every so often will throw in a "zinger," and they're aware that we do just that. The game is for them to identify and disprove/debunk the zingers. The idea is to teach them critical thinking and not to depend on the accuracy of "authority." And they love it; it's an element of growing up to catch us in one of the "zingers" and challenge it. (Most recently: found and proved that "buffalo wings" are chicken wings with a hot sauce from Buffalo, NY, not vestigial wings grown by plains bison (they clip them off the buffalo in the zoo). his dad and I got a 10-year-old with arms akimbo and a mock-exasperated look on his face with that one.)
Have you tried the one about the world being in black & white until color was invented in 1930s, and that the only reason old paintings are in color is because of Ted Turner? Or that the reason White Castle hamburgers (if there's no restaurants in your area, you can find them in grocery store freezers) have 5 holes in them is because that's how many bullets it takes to kill the rats? (Yeah, my brother's real happy with some of the things I've told my nephew. I just remind him it's payback for all the crap he did to me when I was litte. :D)

[Dubious Weasle]

Thanks. Now I have an image of Santa blowing some John for more crack. Ouch.

How do you think he pays for all those presents, hmm? And if a little rock now and then helps the off-season go by then it's none of our business.

[Martin Hyde]

I wonder if people like Johnny Angel really exist? I mean, having such insane feelings about Santa Claus.

I'm hoping it's just internet hyperbole, because if not, I feel sorry for him that he'd have such a pathetic existence.

[tomndebb]

Have you tried the one about the world being in black & white until color was invented in 1930s, . . . No, but I threw out enough odd claims over the years that when I first described harvesting cranberries my kids refused to believe me until I dug up a picture. (Which, of course, meant that they then had a really hard time telling when I was spinning them a new one.)

[ArrMatey!]

I had a chat about this with my folks a little while ago. They told me that they told me of Santa's nonexistance when I was little because that year hannukah was around the first week of december, and when I heard that 'good boys and girls' got presents from santa, they didn't want me thinking I was somehow... Bad... For not getting something from him.

In retrospect, it makes me wonder... I know a lot of it is keeping kids 'in-line' by promising reward for goodness... But how much of it also might have developed from, honestly, a want to spread a faith / idea through gift-giving to the 'good'?
(I'm not being facetious here- I'm honestly intrigued by the idea.)

[Anaamika]

If your kids break down and sob the first time they found out you lied, you raised pussies.

And you were doing so well until this point.

1) No, Santa Claus is not harmful in the least. Most kids figure it out on your own.
2) You have got to be kidding me if you seriously believe that lying to your kids about important things is not damaging. When they find out, they lose a lot of trust and faith in you.

[Cat Whisperer]

Have you tried the one about the world being in black & white until color was invented in 1930s, and that the only reason old paintings are in color is because of Ted Turner? Or that the reason White Castle hamburgers (if there's no restaurants in your area, you can find them in grocery store freezers) have 5 holes in them is because that's how many bullets it takes to kill the rats? (Yeah, my brother's real happy with some of the things I've told my nephew. I just remind him it's payback for all the crap he did to me when I was litte. :D)
Ooh, those are good. Maybe people are upset here because the real way you're supposed to find out Santa Claus isn't real is from your older siblings, anyway.

[Cat Whisperer]

Did someone say something? I could almost swear I heard someone talking about.... Oh, what was it again?
You and tomndebb are so...what's that word again? Funny? No, that's not it...
:D

[D_Odds]

Bah! In the d_odds household, Santa still brings presents. I'm only his emissary, doing his bidding. Bad mouth Santa, you get nothing. I even make sure to quiz my kids in front of their friends to ensure their belief is solid, and that they dont' believe the lies their peers and people like Johnny Angel[b] and [b]SeVen tell about there being no Santa..

My kids are 16 and 13.

This myth is far, far more important to me than the one about someone creating the universe in seven days or about a virgin mother giving birth to a deity's offspring.

[CaveMike]

In this story, Santa Claus is a MacGuffin. Any comment from a teacher that sends multiple 6 and 7 year olds home crying is inappropriate. There may be exceptions to this rule (e.g. Aliens attack!), but not many. And it is not that making a bunch of little kids cry is the worst crime imaginable -- the kids will certainly get over it and be fine. However, an adult should think twice before pulling such a lever. Of course, one would expect that kids from the town of Lickdale might need to be a little thicker-skinned.

[Dr. Love]

Well, if you were raised the way you now portray your youth, that would explain your inability to distinguish between lies and stories, today.
I'm curious, tomndebb, what is the criterion for distinguishing between stories and lies? I would say that a story becomes a lie if one claims that there is empirical evidence that proves the story to be historical fact, e.g. that if you were to travel to the north pole, you would find a tangible Santa's Workshop, or if you were to stay up all night you would see Santa come down the chimney and place the presents under the tree. Some parents even go as far as fabricating false evidence to make the story appear to be factually true. You, however, appear to have rejected this criterion. If falsely claiming the existence of empirical evidence or even planting evidence do not change a story into a lie, what does?

[Seven]

Bah! In the d_odds household, Santa still brings presents. I'm only his emissary, doing his bidding. Bad mouth Santa, you get nothing. I even make sure to quiz my kids in front of their friends to ensure their belief is solid, and that they dont' believe the lies their peers and people like Johnny Angel[b] and [b]SeVen tell about there being no Santa..

My kids are 16 and 13.

This myth is far, far more important to me than the one about someone creating the universe in seven days or about a virgin mother giving birth to a deity's offspring.

I see. So in your household Santa is a control thing. You continue the lie and get your children to "agree" and kiss your ass in front of their friends or they get no presents.


Sick.

[Wolfian]

I see. So in your household Santa is a control thing. You continue the lie and get your children to "agree" and kiss your ass in front of their friends or they get no presents.


Sick.
Don't you have a puppy to kick somewhere?



Pathetic.

[tomndebb]

I would say that a story becomes a lie if one claims that there is empirical evidence that proves the story to be historical fact, e.g. that if you were to travel to the north pole, you would find a tangible Santa's Workshop, or if you were to stay up all night you would see Santa come down the chimney and place the presents under the tree. Some parents even go as far as fabricating false evidence to make the story appear to be factually true. You, however, appear to have rejected this criterion. If falsely claiming the existence of empirical evidence or even planting evidence do not change a story into a lie, what does? I have not supported the claiming of false evidence or the planting of false evidence. In fact, I explicitly notedNow, I would agree that parents who go all out to present Santa as real, long after the kids should have been growing out of that, or who make belief in Santa some sort of test of the child, (If you don't believe in Santa, he won't bring you gifts.), is behaving stupidly.

The Story is out in the culture. Kids get it from books (I hope), TV, movies, songs, Uncle Bertie and Aunt Matilda, neighbor kids, etc. I do not support going to extraordinary lengths to prop up the story. With my kids, I used the method my parents used when I asked, responding: "Well, do YOU think Santa is real?" At first, I and my kids averred that, of course, Santa was real. As I grappled with the fact that we had a gas furnace and no fireplace, that there was a Santa in every department store (I grew up before malls), and the whole story became increasingly less plausible, I figured out that it was not factual. My kids did the same thing.

I have no doubt that there are parents who mess it up and take it to extremely stupid lengths. However, that does not mean that the mere repetition of the story is a lie or that the repetition of the story throughout our culture is some vast conspiracy against children.

(I did the same thing with the tooth fairy: when the kids asked what the tooth fairy looked like, I told them he was about six feet tall with dark hair and a mustache. When they insisted that that could not be true, I simply told them it was true in our house and left it at that.)

[Guinastasia]

People who take it too far-like my aunt and uncle not decorating their Christmas tree until after the kids went to bed on Xmas Eve then telling them that Santa did it?

[Seven]

Don't you have a puppy to kick somewhere?



Pathetic.


D_Odds makes his 16 year old kid profess Santa in front of his friends under the threat of no presents for Christmas and I am the ass?

Interesting.

And for the record, I don't kick puppies.











I boil kittens.

[CynicalGabe]

I boil kittens.

God has you doing his dirty work when we masturbate??? :eek:

[Seven]

God has you doing his dirty work when we masturbate??? :eek:

It's a small price to pay for all the pork products I care to eat without all the fatty, heart attack side effects.

mmmmmmm... unexplained bacon.

[Una Persson]

When I was a child we couldn't afford "lies" or "stories." We had bullshit, horseshit and crocks of shit -- and we had to get up at four in the morning and sort them out before we went to school.
Heh. Nice one...

I agree with most of your OP, but not enough that I want to fight the professional arguers and bellyachers about it. So I'll just make a statement that IMO whole point of Christmas is supposed to be the sharing and caring and love people show towards each other, the festiveness and hope for a better year to come, gathering of families and friends, and yes, giving gifts as a show of affection or to provide comfort to people. Telling children the truth about what Christmas is supposed to mean seems to be a bit better than saying "don't worry, Santa will take care of everything, including all those poor/homeless/runaway children and their families". OK, that excludes the middle, but then so do a lot of the parents I know.

The beauty of Christmas is in no way diminished or enhanced by Santa. Christmas is bigger than Santa, or else if damn well should be. Ironic that in the linked article someone snickers:
“I mailed (Farrisi) a copy of ‘Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus,’” she said, giggling with satisfaction. “I wish I could be there when she opens it.”
And I wish you had read it and understood it yourself, so you knew how silly you look saying this.

~

Just speaking out loud, given how angry people on here get over the least insinuation of religion into public schools, it's somewhat hypocritical for some to be damning one faith-based completely un-scientific belief system while saying another one can and must stay unchallenged. I think what people opposed to the teacher's actions should really be saying is that the teacher should either say nothing OR defer to the parents on matters like this. That is, say "You need to ask your parents about Santa Claus; this is school and we're going to learn about Eigenvalues now..."

However, if a child is smart enough to ask a pointed question, like "Wasn't Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer just invented in an advertising campaign?" (which, given kids and Google, might not be too hard to imagine), what would one have the teacher do then? Refuse to answer? Lie? Say yet again "ask your mom/dad"? If one takes the kid aside and tells just them the truth, we know where that ends up - the kid ends up getting into a fight with the others over it, and teacher has to moderate and finally come clean, otherwise the kid that speaks the truth gets their ass beaten every day by the other kids for not believing in the Cult of Rudolph. Seems to me at some point one must just tell them the truth. You know, fight ignorance and all?

[tdn]

Well, it's also the truth that men and women have sexual intercourse to make babies. No objections to explaining THAT to the kids, right? And it's the truth that men cheat on thier wives, and women on their husbands, by having sexual intercourse with other people. I assume you're in favor of explaining that to children. Also that sometimes women give men oral sex, which means that they put the man's penis in thier mouths and move their heads until the man's penis emits semen.
That's what I love about this board. I learn something new every day.

Daddy Bricker, will you please read me the story about Goldilocks and the Three Coprophagic Bears again? :)

[Cat Whisperer]

<snip>
Just speaking out loud, given how angry people on here get over the least insinuation of religion into public schools, it's somewhat hypocritical for some to be damning one faith-based completely un-scientific belief system while saying another one can and must stay unchallenged. <snip>
Hmm, your logic is strong.

("Professional arguers and bellyachers" - they're not actually professional, you know - strictly volunteer work. :D )

[Knorf]

Behold the vehement and un-Christmaslike hostility...

For people who think the Santa Claus myth is "special" or "important," I say: get a grip.

[Little Plastic Ninja]

Phfff.

I figured Santa out when I was about six -- another kid in my class told all of us that Santa wasn't real, really, and I naturally took the subject to the Ultimate Authority on All Things -- i.e., Mom. She hemmed and hawwed a bit and explained the whole Santa idea, and I was cool with it. But it was still fun to pretend, and I was getting presents from Santa until I was about eleven. These were always the presents that would arrive JUST before we unwrapped, the ones that hadn't been sitting under the tree wrapped all up for the past week.

Then again, I don't think my parents ever specifically told me that Santa was real. "Go to bed early, and when you wake up, Santa will have come" was about as detailed as they got.

No... the saga of the vengeful killer peacocks was the soul-scarring lie that I still remind them of to this day. Much to their amusement. :p

[Sequent]

If it's known to be true that there really is no Santa Claus, then any assertion otherwise is necessarily a lie. A well-intentioned lie, but a lie nonetheless. A story, yes--a fiction. A shared imagination, if you will. But in terms of reality, a big fat whopping lie, and the teller of such a story: liar, liar, pants on fire.

As though parents don't lie to their kids. As though all untruths communicated from parent to child are simply stories. Parents lie to their children everyday. It would be remarkable how much and how often they lie were it not dwarfed by how much and how often children lie back (once they learn how...I'll not speculate on where they learn it).

This reminds me of one episode of the Sopranos: the son, A.J., learns in school that Columbus was really a savage, brutal man to the natives he encountered. When the father Tony learns about this, he pounds his fist and says, "in this house, Columbus is a hero!"

It's one thing to believe in the harmlessness of lies; it's quite something else to believe they're not actually lies in the first place. Just because you meant no harm in telling them, or just because everybody else does it. If you're going to tell your children "stories," then you should be prepared to deal with the fact that the world at large is eventually going to undermine your, uh, narrative perspective.

[tomndebb]

A story, yes--a fiction. A shared imagination, if you will. But in terms of reality, a big fat whopping lie, and the teller of such a story: liar, liar, pants on fire. Ah! So Hemingway, Faulkner, Shakespeare, Nabokov, L'Amour, Tolstoy, de Maupassant, Goethe, Cheever, Homer, and all their sordid pals are simply LIARS. That is good to know.

[Shakes]

Ah! So Hemingway, Faulkner, Shakespeare, Nabokov, L'Amour, Tolstoy, de Maupassant, Goethe, Cheever, Homer, and all their sordid pals are simply LIARS. That is good to know.

I'm pretty sure (most) of these guys don't portray their stories to be true.

[tomndebb]

According to Sequent, there is an equation between fiction, shared imagination, and big fat lies. (There are people who genuinely equate fiction and lies, so if someone wants to dump that thought into the discussion, we need to carry it through to its logical conclusion. After all, the fact that some parents go overboard in getting their kids to accept Santa has been a recurring theme among the folks who need to make this an issue of always lying.)

[Polycarp]

According to Sequent, there is an equation between fiction, shared imagination, and big fat lies. (There are people who genuinely equate fiction and lies, so if someone wants to dump that thought into the discussion, we need to carry it through to its logical conclusion. After all, the fact that some parents go overboard in getting their kids to accept Santa has been a recurring theme among the folks who need to make this an issue of always lying.)

I sincerely doubt that the individuals in question in this topic, to wit, Johnny Angel and Sequent, actually bear those monikers as their legal names. Clearly, then, they are lying. ;)

[Knorf]

I sincerely doubt that the individuals in question in this topic, to wit, Johnny Angel and Sequent, actually bear those monikers as their legal names. Clearly, then, they are lying. ;)
:rolleyes:

Only if they make the claim that those are their real names, which they have not.

Og, I hope this is a whoosh. I'd hate to think you really thought you had just presented an argument.

[Dr. Love]

According to Sequent, there is an equation between fiction, shared imagination, and big fat lies.
It's quite clear that Sequent made no such statement. What he said was:
If it's known to be true that there really is no Santa Claus, then any assertion otherwise is necessarily a lie. A well-intentioned lie, but a lie nonetheless. A story, yes--a fiction. A shared imagination, if you will. But in terms of reality, a big fat whopping lie, and the teller of such a story: liar, liar, pants on fire.
My emphasis, of course. Sequent made the exact same point that I did: a story becomes a lie when someone, who knows otherwise, claims that there is empirical truth behind it. The Santa Myth satisfies this condition. Someone is claiming to children that Santa has a physical reality, and while tomndebb may have successfully managed to never make a definite comment one way or the other, other people have not. That claim, not the fictional nature itself, is what makes the Santa myth a lie.

[tomndebb]

claims that there is empirical truth behind it. Actually, I know very few people who claim that there is empirical truth behind the Santa story. (I cannot rthink of anyone in my circle of acquaintances who do.) The story is in the culture with no serious claims to reality. I have already noted that people who do try to prop up the story in the face of kids' skepticism are out of line. I just think its silly to drop the big "It Is A Lie" claim on the story.

[Sequent]

Ah! So Hemingway, Faulkner, Shakespeare, Nabokov, L'Amour, Tolstoy, de Maupassant, Goethe, Cheever, Homer, and all their sordid pals are simply LIARS.
Sure....if you're the Taliban. :rolleyes: Homer might actually be the interesting exception on this list, as one could debate whether or not The Iliad is presented as an accurate historical account. But then did Homer have access to resources which would have shed definitive light on what was fact and what wasn't? So we could say he was doing the best he could. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt--maybe if the Santa Claus had myth served as one of the cornerstones of Western literature as we know it, I'd give you the benefit of the doubt? Probably not. They actually found Troy, after all. When they dig up Santa's workshop, let me know.

Until then, liar liar pants on fire! We're not talking about a bedtime story. You know the reality of how those presents got there, yet you supply your children with an explanation that simply isn't true. That's a lie. When you continue that behavior for years, when you withhold the truth so that others may make their children believe the same thing, then yes, it's a BIG lie.

I'm not saying that makes you evil or a bad parent or whatever; I'm not saying you're scarring your children for life. They'll figure it out and still love you, I'm sure. What I am saying is that it's folly to tell yourself it's not a lie when in fact it is, that you're not really lying when in fact you really are. Just because it's between you and your children with nothing but love doesn't make it less of a lie, nor does the fact that it's a cultural phenonmenon. So maybe a you're a great parent; I'm not saying this lie or any others take anything away from that. But don't try to tell me it's some kind of sacred story form worthy of canonized among the finest literature. That's just silly. It's an explanation for reality that simply isn't true: a lie.

[Sequent]

I sincerely doubt that the individuals in question in this topic, to wit, Johnny Angel and Sequent, actually bear those monikers as their legal names. Clearly, then, they are lying. ;)
Nonsense, as others have already pointed out. The registration form said "Choose your user name," not "enter your real name."

[Contrapuntal]

I have already noted that people who do try to prop up the story in the face of kids' skepticism are out of line. I just think its silly to drop the big "It Is A Lie" claim on the story.What about propping up the story before tbey become skeptical? The kids may have heard about Santa "culturally" instead of from their parents, but buying gifts and telling the kids that Santa brought them is certainly offering supporting evidence for the truth of the story.

[Seven]

I sincerely doubt that the individuals in question in this topic, to wit, Johnny Angel and Sequent, actually bear those monikers as their legal names. Clearly, then, they are lying. ;)


:D

Good man leaving me out of that one.


As some know, Seven is my real , legal name

[tim314]

Look, regardless of whether or not you think telling your kids that Santa really exists is a good idea, only a self-important jackass gets all offended that other people do it and starts crying about how they're "LYING TO CHILDREN." It's obviously a harmless lie, so how is it any of your damn business? And only a complete asshole is so offended by it that she takes it upon herself to inform a roomfull of kids that their parents are liars when no one even asked a question about Santa. They were just reading a poem.

You don't have some sort of moral duty to expose every one of the multitude of lies most parents tell to their kids. Get a fucking life.

[tim314]

And if you are going to start some sort of "Don't ever lie to your kids" crusade, you could pick a better lie to target than "Some fat elf brings you presents." Hell, my dad told me I'd had an older brother who was eaten by the boogey man. And he planted a tape recorder under my bed with a boogey man voice saying he was coming for me next . . . .

[SolGrundy]

Seems to me at some point one must just tell them the truth. You know, fight ignorance and all?
Thank goodness someone finally said it. I was starting to worry that the SDMB was broken.

Re: Church's "Yes, Virginia, There is a Santa Claus" editorial
And I wish you had read it and understood it yourself, so you knew how silly you look saying this.
Well apparently you have to enlighten the rest of us on your deeper understanding of the editorial. The version I read has absolutely nothing to do with the self-serving politicizing you wrote on here. Maybe you can do me a favor and read it again (http://beebo.org/smackerels/yes-virginia.html). Point out to those of us who is ignorants how you can manage to take one of the most well-known, concise, and poetic descriptions of the nature of faith and belief in the face of cold skepticism and arrogance, and turn it into a defense of your own opinion that the beauty of Christmas requires people to impose their own opinions on children and dismiss their family traditions as a "lie."

While you're at it, explain how the beauty of Christmas means giving a condescending tsk tsk to parents who are upset at someone else's intrusion on their traditions. And how the magic of the season allows you to turn down your nose at the evil parents who tell their kids about Santa Claus instead of doing enough for poor, homeless, and runaway children.

Because, ignorant person than I am, I always thought that the point of the article was how the real truth is much greater than rational analysis and what can be observed and measured. I never understood the subtle nuances that suggest the real spirit of Christmas is dumping on children and then calling their parents stupid liars.

Just speaking out loud, given how angry people on here get over the least insinuation of religion into public schools, it's somewhat hypocritical for some to be damning one faith-based completely un-scientific belief system while saying another one can and must stay unchallenged.
There you go. How's that defending The Truth working out for you? This isn't really about Santa Claus and allowing children to enjoy a story free of cynicism and skepticism. It's really about the separation of Church and State.

Just speaking out loud, it seems somewhat hypocritical to upset children by intruding on a tradition, claim that there's somehow something noble about that by putting the "Champion Of Rational Truth" spin on it, and then go on to say that it's just the hyper-religious "professional bellyachers" who are going on the assault and blowing the nonsense out of proportion.

Seems a shame that the first casualties in the "war on ignorance" are always decency, consideration for others, and just plain basic common sense.

If one takes the kid aside and tells just them the truth, we know where that ends up - the kid ends up getting into a fight with the others over it, and teacher has to moderate and finally come clean, otherwise the kid that speaks the truth gets their ass beaten every day by the other kids for not believing in the Cult of Rudolph.
Um. Yeah. I still remember when my nursery school had to install metal detectors, the Anti-Truth Pro-Santa gang violence had gotten so out of control. We were just kids, then, so we couldn't moan about being martyred for our beliefs on the internets. We just had to make do with the beatings and being stabbed by candy cane shivs.

You're gonna have to remind me, Una: who exactly are the professional arguers and bellyachers, again?

[Una Persson]

Well apparently you have to enlighten the rest of us on your deeper understanding of the editorial. The version I read has absolutely nothing to do with the self-serving politicizing you wrote on here. Maybe you can do me a favor and read it again (http://beebo.org/smackerels/yes-virginia.html). Point out to those of us who is ignorants how you can manage to take one of the most well-known, concise, and poetic descriptions of the nature of faith and belief in the face of cold skepticism and arrogance, and turn it into a defense of your own opinion that the beauty of Christmas requires people to impose their own opinions on children and dismiss their family traditions as a "lie."
That's a strawman, because I never said that.
IMO whole point of Christmas is supposed to be the sharing and caring and love people show towards each other, the festiveness and hope for a better year to come, gathering of families and friends, and yes, giving gifts as a show of affection or to provide comfort to people. Telling children the truth about what Christmas is supposed to mean [B]seems to be a bit better than saying "don't worry, Santa will take care of everything, including all those poor/homeless/runaway children and their families". OK, that excludes the middle, but then so do a lot of the parents I know.

The beauty of Christmas is in no way diminished or enhanced by Santa. Christmas is bigger than Santa, or else if damn well should be.
I don't see how that offends you so. I'm saying that given the two options, telling the truth about what Christmas means is the best path for, ironically, letting children know about what Christmas means, as opposed to being in the Santa myth. I'm sorry if Christmas == Santa to some people, but they need to become less ignorant if they really want to know what Christmas means. Furthermore, I added this:
I think what people opposed to the teacher's actions should really be saying is that the teacher should either say nothing OR defer to the parents on matters like this. That is, say "You need to ask your parents about Santa Claus; this is school and we're going to learn about Eigenvalues now..."

I said nothing about forcing children to not believe in Santa, or going out of one's way to impose the unbelief on them. I said that "the teacher should either say nothing OR defer to the parents on matters like this". If that's not comprehensible to you, then there's no point in talking.

You have badly misrepresented the words I wrote which are right here in this thread. I think in your mind you've added what others have said to what I've said rather than viewing each post independently. Maybe if you re-do your post, but instead damn me for the things I've actually said, you'll have more of a point.

While you're at it, explain how the beauty of Christmas means giving a condescending tsk tsk to parents who are upset at someone else's intrusion on their traditions. And how the magic of the season allows you to turn down your nose at the evil parents who tell their kids about Santa Claus instead of doing enough for poor, homeless, and runaway children.
Another strawman. People here can read what I actually wrote:
the teacher should either say nothing OR defer to the parents on matters like this. That is, say "You need to ask your parents about Santa Claus; this is school and we're going to learn about Eigenvalues now..."
Once again, I think you're adding the content and meaning of other people's posts to mine. Well, I'm not going to give you a fight like you seem to want, because what I wrote was apparently clear enough to the other hundreds who presumably read it.
Um. Yeah. I still remember when my nursery school had to install metal detectors, the Anti-Truth Pro-Santa gang violence had gotten so out of control. We were just kids, then, so we couldn't moan about being martyred for our beliefs on the internets. We just had to make do with the beatings and being stabbed by candy cane shivs.
Is this a strawman yet again? Evidently you don't know much about elementary schools and the things kids do to those who don't fit into the group opinion. Maybe you were home-schooled, or one of those Brazilian superbabies that never needed to go to school. One can cover their ears and close their eyes and pretend like kids don't gang up on others who hold a differing opinion on stupid, pointless shit, but it still happens. In 2nd grade, I saw a kid beaten up because he insisted the planet Pluto was smaller than Mercury! If that doesn't give one an idea of elementary class politics and mob behaviour, nothing will. A child who tries to speak out and tell other children that there is no Santa is likely to get a virtual bullseye on them. Given the hysterical reactions of some children reported in the article, that doesn't seem like a stretch.

You're gonna have to remind me, Una: who exactly are the professional arguers and bellyachers, again?
Who do you think? I'm one of them, certainly. I posted an opinion piece and said I wasn't interested in a debate. However, you've deliberately misrepresented what I wrote so badly that in most forums you would have got a warning or caution from a Moderator, so I feel I need to clarify things since that's not going to happen here.

[SolGrundy]

I said nothing about forcing children to not believe in Santa, or going out of one's way to impose the unbelief on them. I said that "the teacher should either say nothing OR defer to the parents on matters like this". If that's not comprehensible to you, then there's no point in talking.
No, that is the one and only part of your post that I completely skipped over, mis-read, and mis-interpreted. Mea culpa. That is exactly the conclusion everyone should take from all this nonsense.

As for the rest, I have to say I stand by my interpretation of the rest of what you wrote. I would admit it if I thought I'd conflated yours with other posts, but I don't believe I did.

Who do you think? I'm one of them, certainly. I posted an opinion piece and said I wasn't interested in a debate. However, you've deliberately misrepresented what I wrote so badly that in most forums you would have got a warning or caution from a Moderator, so I feel I need to clarify things since that's not going to happen here.
There are still moderators for this forum, and the "report this post" button still works better than an implied threat of moderator intervention.

I can and will go through a quote-by-quote explanation of what you said and how I read it and how it's neither a misrepresentation nor a "strawman" if you want. But considering that neither of us want a debate, your follow-up clarified your opinions, and we both came to the same conclusion, it would be pointless.