Oil Change Intervals

[Amp]

Took my car in for its 20,000 mile inspection and got the works done on it, tire rotation, lube this, lube that, etc. Also the oil and filter were changed. Got the car back and noticed as I was driving off they placed that little oil change sticker reminder on the windshield. By the dealership's estimate I was supposed to come back in the next three months or 3,750 miles, whichever comes first. Now I have had this car for two years now and have only had the oil changed twice. Once every 10,000 miles, like the owner's manual states.

So whose schedule should I follow? The owner's manual or the dealership's? And why aren't the dealership and the auto maker on the same page when it comes to maintenance schedules?

[Zeriel]

First off, the dealer's undoubtedly out to make money.

Second, it might be just a standard estimate without checking the car's make too closely--100% of the cars I've owned/driven have recommended a 3,000mi/3mo oil change interval.

Third, what the heck are you driving that the manual recommends a 10k mi oil change interval?

[Reply]

What kind of car do you have?

[Amp]

It is a 2004 Honda Accord.

The owner's manual has, for normal driving conditions, an oil change schedule of every 10,000 miles or once every year.

[Absolute]

First off, the dealer's undoubtedly out to make money.

Second, it might be just a standard estimate without checking the car's make too closely--100% of the cars I've owned/driven have recommended a 3,000mi/3mo oil change interval.

Third, what the heck are you driving that the manual recommends a 10k mi oil change interval?
My BMW runs on synthetic oil, and the factory-recommended oil change interval is 15,000 miles. Porsche, Mercedes, and maybe Audi have similar recommendations - Porsche may even be as high as 20,000.

I change it every 7,500, because I figure it's cheap insurance, but plenty of people go with the 15K interval with no problems.

[Absolute]

It is a 2004 Honda Accord.

The owner's manual has, for normal driving conditions, an oil change schedule of every 10,000 miles or once every year.
Go with the owner's manual, as long as you are using the recommended oil as well. Synthetic oils can last that long, conventional oils cannot.

If it turns out that the dealer used conventional oil, then a 3750-mile interval makes sense. However, running conventional oil in an engine designed for synthetic is not a good idea (and yours likely is). If that's the case, I would go back to the dealer and demand that they give you another oil change, with the proper stuff this time, for free.

[Absolute]

Also, if the dealer did use synthetic oil, then the 3,750 mile change interval is pure and simple bullshit. It is actually _bad_ for your engine - studies have shown that synthetic oils actually require a few thousand miles to "break-in" before they begin to function optimally, meaning that changing your synthetic oil too often results in undue wear on the engine.

[A.R. Cane]

I would say that you should follow the mfgrs. recommendations, including the grade of oil. There is another factor though, your driving habits. Generally, if you do frequent short trips, say 5 miles or less and the car then sits for more than 20-30 minutes between trips, this causes condensation buildup inside the engine. Water plus hydocarbons results in acid formations, degrading the oil. This type of driving requires more frequent changes, perhaps by as much as half the recommended interval. Other factors that reduce the interval might be driving in high dust areas, dirt roads, off road, construction areas, or even lots of stop/start city driving.
ITOH if you do lots of highway driving, where the engine operates at fairly steady rpm's for long periods, you might even extend the changes by 10 to 25%, although I'd probably still not exceed the recommendations, for warranty purposes.
I'm wary of these oil change businesses. Obviously most of them are legitimate, but even then they often try to sell you products and services that you don't need. There are also incidents where they do nothing and charge you anyway and also where mistakes are made. I would suggest that you have them pull the dipstick and show you that the oil is clean and at the proper level before driving away, and also check the ground after the first time you park. There have been instances where they forgot to add the new oil, misjudged the capacity (overfilling can be as bad as no oil), or mistightened drain plugs or filters.

[FatBaldGuy]

I'm wary of these oil change businesses. Obviously most of them are legitimate, but even then they often try to sell you products and services that you don't need. There are also incidents where they do nothing and charge you anyway and also where mistakes are made. I would suggest that you have them pull the dipstick and show you that the oil is clean and at the proper level before driving away, and also check the ground after the first time you park. There have been instances where they forgot to add the new oil, misjudged the capacity (overfilling can be as bad as no oil), or mistightened drain plugs or filters.I've had only one bad experience with one of these places, and that was about 20 years ago. Apparently, when they changed the oil filter they left the old gasket in place, as well as the new gasket. I drove less than 2 miles, and my oil light came on, so I immediately hightailed it back there. All of the oil had leaked out between the two gaskets.

They were very apologetic and not only fixed the problem, but paid to have my engine steam cleaned at a different shop, because oil had sprayed all over the place.

[Gary T]

According to my information, the factory recommended intervals are as follows:

4 cylinder, normal service: 10,000 miles.
4 cylinder, severe service: 5,000 miles.
6 cylinder, normal service: 7,500 miles.
6 cylinder, severe service: 3,750 miles.

Severe service includes driving mainly under one or more of the following conditions:

Driving less than 5 miles (8 km) per trip or in freezing temperatures.*
Driving less than 10 miles (16 km) per trip.*
Driving in hot [over 9O°F (32°C)] conditions.
Extensive idling or long periods of stop-and-go driving.

For many people, this is consistent with typical city driving. Most auto shops in metropolitan areas assume severe service in their oil change interval recommendations. The question is (if my info is correct), why are they saying 3,750 miles instead of 5,000 miles?

My guess would be the dealer is using the 3,750 mile interval because it was the norm (for most Japanese cars) for many years. Since it still applies to some models, they're probably taking the easy way out and using a "one size fits all" approach rather than dealing with different intervals for different models/engines.

I think you'll be fine following the manufacturer's recommendation. They invest a lot in developing and researching these things, and are an authoritative source. Dealers seldom have a sound technical reason to suggest otherwise.**
_____

*These two taken together don't really make sense. If it said trips of less than 5 miles, and trips of less than 10 miles in (not or in) freezing temperatures, it would make sense.

**Seldom, but I wouldn't say never. There have been cases where real-life experience shows that the factory recommended interval and/or oil type is not sufficient to protect the engine. I'm not aware of any such situation with Honda, however.

[Gary T]

Go with the owner's manual, as long as you are using the recommended oil as well. Synthetic oils can last that long, conventional oils cannot.
Says who? You know something the car manufacturers don't?

This car does not specify synthetic oil.

[Balthisar]

100% of the cars I've owned/driven have recommended a 3,000mi/3mo oil change interval.
Jeesh! What the heck kind of wierd cars do you drive?

[Mr. Slant]

Go with the owner's manual, as long as you are using the recommended oil as well. Synthetic oils can last that long, conventional oils cannot.

If it turns out that the dealer used conventional oil, then a 3750-mile interval makes sense. However, running conventional oil in an engine designed for synthetic is not a good idea (and yours likely is). If that's the case, I would go back to the dealer and demand that they give you another oil change, with the proper stuff this time, for free.

I would like a cite for synthetic oils lasting longer than conventional ones at normal operating temperatures (below 275 fahrenheit).
I've been studying this topic for *years*, and I can't find a good cite for that assertion, despite quite some time spent looking.
The failure mode of most crankcase oils is additive depletion, not the base oil failing. Typically the anti-acid adds fails, and the oil goes acidic.
This means that a conventional oil with a high-quality additive pack has the same endurance as a synthetic oil with the same quality of additive pack.

Every synthetic I've ever researched has what appears be a high-quality add pack. While many conventional passenger car motor oils do not, some are better than others, and it appears that diesel-oriented motor oils like Shell Rotella T have the same kind of heavy-duty additive loadouts that synthetics get.

In answer to the OP: if your manual says 10,000 miles *in your driving conditions* then feel free to run 10,000 miles. Honda has its own specification for 5W20 motor oils to meet (harsher than Ford's, which is the other 5W20 pusher), and if the oil used in your vehicle is compliant with that spec you should be fine.
Incidentally, by the standards of a few years back, every name brand 5W20 is synthetic. The cheapest base oils you can mix in to create an oil that will meet the manufacturer specs for 5W20 are Group III, which means they're very highly refined petroleum oils. By today's standards, they're basically all synthetic blends or better.
Make sure there isn't a "gotcha" in the manual that trims your oil change interval back to 5,000 miles or so if you drive in town all the time, etc etc.

[gotpasswords]

What's the recommendation if your driving is a mix? Two miles each way to the train station on week days, but 100+ mile trips on weekends? Are the long weekend drives enough to "cook" the bad stuff out?

And 5w20? How long before we're just lubing our engines with water?

[Gary T]

What's the recommendation if your driving is a mix? Two miles each way to the train station on week days, but 100+ mile trips on weekends? Are the long weekend drives enough to "cook" the bad stuff out?
There is no official recommendation that I know of. Even the given intervals are somewhat arbitrary, being round numbers. You pretty much have to try to "common sense" it out.

And 5w20? How long before we're just lubing our engines with water?
Well, water's not quite as slippery as oil. ;)

The trend over the past couple decades has been to lower viscosity numbers. Various additives and such can enable the oil to protect as well as -- probably even better than -- the thicker oil that was previously more popular. The lower number stuff flows better, and getting it where it needs to be quickly seems to help a great deal.

[Mr. Slant]

SNIP

And 5w20? How long before we're just lubing our engines with water?

I'm thinking we'll be running 5W20 untill we run out of petroleum.
I don't expect you'll see 0W10, 5W10 or 10W10 on store shelves.
I read a study comparing wear rates with different viscosities. I seem to recall it having been compaing a number of different oils with an eye towards "what is the most fuel-efficient oil we can run without grenading our engines."
Supposedly wear rates skyrocket once you get to a viscosity slightly below 20 weight.

[FairyChatMom]

If you're a fan of Car Talk, they recommend every 5000 miles. (http://www.cartalk.com/content/columns/Archive/1997/November/12.html) My '97 Aerostar recommends every 7500, but I've changed every 5K since I got it, and at 171K miles with no major engine problems, I can offer it anecdotally as a good interval.

Plus it's easy to remember - multiples of 5K is easier math than multiples of 3750 or 7500 or 4283 or whatever...

[spingears]

So whose schedule should I follow? The owner's manual or the dealership's? And why aren't the dealership and the auto maker on the same page when it comes to maintenance schedules? Like so many things "It all depends."

Petroleum Oils & Filter 3,000 to 6,000 Miles. Remove products of oxidation etc. from
oil and provide for good filtration of the new oil.

Synthetic Oils & Filter 7,500 to 15,000 Miles. Same reasons.

[Rick]

I would like a cite for synthetic oils lasting longer than conventional ones at normal operating temperatures (below 275 fahrenheit).
I've been studying this topic for *years*, and I can't find a good cite for that assertion, despite quite some time spent looking.
Would a car maker's spec be a good enough cite for you?
I was just looking at oil change criteria the other day (don't I lead an exciting life?)
Anyway several of our engines have a different service interval depending on the market. In Europe the interval is 30,000km using 0W-30 oil meeting ACEA specification A5/B5. The same engine here in the states has a 12,000km service interval using 5W-30 meeting ACEA spec A1/B1, and or API SL.
Here in the US to the best of my knowledge the only oils that meet ACEA A5/B5 are full synthetic oils. The last time I went oil label reading (I told you I lead an exciting life!) no dinosaur based oil met the A5/B5 certification.
So is it the base oil quality or the additive package that makes the oil go from A1/B1 to A5/B5? Beats me, but the only oils you can get on this side of the pond that meet the A5/B5 are synthetic.
Getting back to the OP, I would pay very close attention to the quality of the oil being used in the oil change. If the dealer is using an inferior grade of oil (possible) it does not matter that the weight is correct, engine damage can occur.

API grade info (PDF!) (http://api-ep.api.org/filelibrary/API_MotorOilGuide_2004.pdf)
Here is a chart of ACEA grades (http://kenoanyag.mol.hu/english/products/lubricant_encyclopedia/rovat_cikkei/doc123828)

[Mr. Slant]

Rick,

Your actions in the fight against ignorance are admirable. While you marshal evidence against my position, you don't exaggerate what said evidence implies. I applaud you for that.
The auto maker's oil change interval reccomendations will not wholly satisfy me, though they do provide something for me to consider.
The reason that they will not satisfy me is that the reccomendations are based on both technical and non-technical criteria. If the carmaker in question was doing everything on the basis of technical results, I cannot imagine the reason for reccomending A5 0W30 in Europe and A1 or SL 5W30 here. "Europe" and "US" are both basically extremely broad geographical zones, and it seems that they would grab the same specs if the specs were handed out sanely. Now if it was Japan or Australia versus Canada, I could see different standards....
Incidentally, you won't find an A5 0W30 that's non-synthetic because of the viscosity spread. It appears to be impossible to produce a 0W30 that isn't synthetic. That's fair, given that flowing at -45 and still lubricating well requires quite a deal of versatility on an oil's part.
I seem to recall that there are some semi-synths that meet the A3 long-length spec. One of them, Federated Auto Parts 10W40, sells for $2.09 per quart, in fact. [1] That price point would usually be associated with a premium full-conventional oil or low-to-mid-grade synthetic blend.
Good point though, really.
*Can* a fully conventional oil meet A3/etc?
Hard to tell, although we know that some oils that are around 85% conventional can. Hard to tell what really goes into most oils without deciphering maker MSDS. Many blenders consider how conventional their synthetics, blends and conventional oils are to be a state secret.


[1] http://www.midwayautosupply.com//detailedproductdescription.asp?1332
[2] Note the Castrol GTX 10W40 at this site, which appears to meet A3. GTX is Castrol's conventional brand. http://www.motor-world.co.uk/kroozin/category.php?sub_cat_id=39
[3] Schaeffer's Synthetic Blend 10W30 meets A3. http://www.schaefferoil.com/datapdf/703.pdf [PDF]

[Khadaji]

<SNIP>
So whose schedule should I follow? The owner's manual or the dealership's? And why aren't the dealership and the auto maker on the same page when it comes to maintenance schedules?
The Car Talk guys on NPR say that you can follow the owner's manual. They also address you question on why the two are different: The dealership wants to sell you more oil.

I am surprised that the owner's manual says 10000. That is higher than any I have heard, but I haven't bought a new car in 8 years.

[Balthisar]

The Car Talk guys on NPR say that you can follow the owner's manual. They also address you question on why the two are different: The dealership wants to sell you more oil.

I am surprised that the owner's manual says 10000. That is higher than any I have heard, but I haven't bought a new car in 8 years.

On that note, also conform yourself with following the recommendations in your maintenance (or owners) manual for all of the other services. I hate going to the dealer or quick-lube places and listening to the outright fscking lies about their maintenance schedules.

[amarone]

First off, the dealer's undoubtedly out to make money.

Second, it might be just a standard estimate without checking the car's make too closely--100% of the cars I've owned/driven have recommended a 3,000mi/3mo oil change interval. Wow - I've never owned a car with less than a 6,000 mile interval. I currently own a Toyota that recommends 7,500 (or 5,000 for severe conditions, which are way more severe than anything I encounter). Despite that, the Toyota dealership faithfully puts a 3,000 mile reminder on the windshield every time I take it in. They are simply out to make more money, just as when I take it in for service and they add the "dealer-recommended service" to the factory-recommended service, which doubles the price (and I decline). I have a friend who is a manager of a Honda dealership and he describes these practices as purely up-sell.

[BobLibDem]

According to my information, the factory recommended intervals are as follows:

4 cylinder, normal service: 10,000 miles.
4 cylinder, severe service: 5,000 miles.
6 cylinder, normal service: 7,500 miles.
6 cylinder, severe service: 3,750 miles.



What about 8 cylinders? Or to be a total wise guy, my Colorado has 5 cylinders. What about 5 cylinder cars, is there a general rule?

[Rick]

What about 8 cylinders? Or to be a total wise guy, my Colorado has 5 cylinders. What about 5 cylinder cars, is there a general rule?
Yes, there is. The general rule is get out your owner's manual (refered to in the industry as the most expensive book you have ever purchased, and never read) and read what the guys that designed and built your engine recomend. :rolleyes:

[Mr.Slant[/b] Thanks for your kind comments. Over the last year, I have been learning more and more about oil. There is way more to this than I used to believe.

[Rick]

Boy I screwed up the coding on that one didn't I? :smack:

[ombre3]

Do modern engines use no oil at all anymore? 10,000 miles between oil changes huh?

Assuming a moderate usage of a quart every 3000 miles and if you added to replace the loss-----you would come pretty close to changing the oil at 10,000 miles without ever actually changing it.

I have never owned a car that didn't use at least some oil. If none were added no car I ever owned would have ANY oil in it at 10,000 miles.========fried motor.

Of course my youngest car is 23 years old----so maybe it is possible these days.

[King Friday]

I've always had GMs and the recommended oil change interval is 7,500.
The Jiffy Lube recommendation is 3,000.

[Rick]

Modern cars do use a lot less oil then older cars did.
Back in the 60's if you owned a British car and you only had to add a quart in 1,000 miles you had a good engine. :)
When I started working in a gas station, we had one customer that had a slant six Chrysler that used 1/2 quart in 3000 miles. We thought his car should have been in the Guiness book.
Nowadays with better metals, better machining, and advanced engine management* using only a quart in 10,000 miles is not unknown.
We sold a car a few years back that had a 10,000 miles oil change interval. I had one of these a company car. It used about 3/4 of a quart in 10,000 miles.


*the introduction of idle motors, believe it or not, caused a reduction of oil usage. On decell the idle motor open and limits the amount of vacuum in the intake manifold. this limits the amount of oil pulled passed the valve seals and rings.

[Sam Stone]

My Ford Escape has a change interval of 5,000.

[Gorgonzola]

On that note, also conform yourself with following the recommendations in your maintenance (or owners) manual for all of the other services. I hate going to the dealer or quick-lube places and listening to the outright fscking lies about their maintenance schedules.

It would probably help if the people at the dealership took a peek at the owner's manuals. When we took home my beloved (I mean it; we're very close) Saab 9-2X Aero this summer, my husband remembered reading somewhere in his obsessive research that the engine had a break-in period (during which time RPMs were to be kept low, damn them, DAMN THE CRUELTY). He asked the sales rep and a pair of maintenance personnel, and everyone said nope, no such thing, not to worry. Then I got the manual home, and was stricken to find that it was true -- not once, but twice those manual writing bastards advised me not to exceed 4000 RPM for the first 1000 miles! I did my (ahem) best to obey.

[Sam Stone]

My Ford Escape has a change interval of 5,000.

Er, that's 5000 kilometers. About 3000 miles.

[Mr. Slant]

Do modern engines use no oil at all anymore? 10,000 miles between oil changes huh?

Assuming a moderate usage of a quart every 3000 miles and if you added to replace the loss-----you would come pretty close to changing the oil at 10,000 miles without ever actually changing it.
SNIP

Good point, ombre3.
In fact, new cars have a variety of oil consumption patterns.
Some new cars use a little, some new cars use more than a little. The automaker rule of thumb is that you won't get warranty service for "excessive oil use" unless you're putting in more than a quart per 1,000 miles. I've heard that Cadillac's North Star V8 series is thirsty.
Your theory of changing the oil through burning it is one that is in fact used in the Over The Road truck industry. There is at least one company making semis that intentionally transfers motor oil into the fuel system from time to time, ensuring that the oil will be topped off so as to extend oil change intervals. Of course, their method works much better when your oil capacity is measured in gallons than quarts, and is of no use at all in gas engines, but the principle applies.
I used to have a Mercedes diesel that leaked 4 quarts per 1,000 miles. I changed the oil faithfully at 3,000 miles, but knowing what I know now, I suspect I would just change the filter at the reccomended intervals and NEVER change its crankcase.

[Mr. Slant]

Er, that's 5000 kilometers. About 3000 miles.

Your Ford Escape has a 3000 mile interval because many [all?] automakers consider Canuckistan to automatically be "severe" and because your car is a Ford.
In North America Ford and Mercury both have across the board policies of 3,000 miles for severe and 5,000 miles for normal usage.
If you don't have the manual Escape, my Sable has the same engine as your SUV. Congratulations, that's a peppy little Duratec powerplant and allegedly trouble-free.

[Mr. Slant]

What about 8 cylinders? Or to be a total wise guy, my Colorado has 5 cylinders. What about 5 cylinder cars, is there a general rule?

Bob,

You should understand that Rick was reciting the factory oil change reccomendations for 2004 Model Year Honda Accords.
If your 2004 Accord came from the factory with the 5-cylinder from a a Chevy Colorado, you'll want to have your dealer's service department contact Honda tech support for specific advice. :-)
Like Rick said, follow what the book said.

[Rayne Man]

As I have said before, every time this topic is raised on the SDMB, the"change the oil every 3000 miles" seems only to be confined to the US. In the UK and the rest of Europe it is quite common to have the manufacturer recommend oil changes of between 10,000 and 20,000 miles. We are not just talking about the very expensive cars , but equally to Fords , Peugeots and Fiats etc. So why the big difference ? As as been said above , it seems to be just a money making exercise from the oil-change companies.

[BobLibDem]

Bob,

You should understand that Rick was reciting the factory oil change reccomendations for 2004 Model Year Honda Accords.
If your 2004 Accord came from the factory with the 5-cylinder from a a Chevy Colorado, you'll want to have your dealer's service department contact Honda tech support for specific advice. :-)
Like Rick said, follow what the book said.

My mistake, I thought they were general rules for # cylinders in any car.

I suspect the oil change intervals in the manuals are ultraconservative, designed to bring in money for the dealerships' service departments. But failing to follow it may cause you grief if you have an expensive warranty claim.

[Rayne Man]

My mistake, I thought they were general rules for # cylinders in any car.

I suspect the oil change intervals in the manuals are ultraconservative, designed to bring in money for the dealerships' service departments. But failing to follow it may cause you grief if you have an expensive warranty claim.

They may be ultra conservative in the US , but the rest of the world seems to get by on much longer manufacturer's recommended service / oil -change intervals.

[amarone]

As I have said before, every time this topic is raised on the SDMB, the"change the oil every 3000 miles" seems only to be confined to the US. In the UK and the rest of Europe it is quite common to have the manufacturer recommend oil changes of between 10,000 and 20,000 miles. We are not just talking about the very expensive cars , but equally to Fords , Peugeots and Fiats etc. So why the big difference ? As as been said above , it seems to be just a money making exercise from the oil-change companies.How much does an oil change cost in the UK these days? I remember paying something like £40 ($70) 10 years ago. When I came to the US and found all the 3,000 mile recommendations I wondered if there was some sort of trade off between cost and distance as an oil change here costs more like $25 even now, and even at the Toyota dealer.

[Rayne Man]

How much does an oil change cost in the UK these days? I remember paying something like £40 ($70) 10 years ago. When I came to the US and found all the 3,000 mile recommendations I wondered if there was some sort of trade off between cost and distance as an oil change here costs more like $25 even now, and even at the Toyota dealer.
Can't answer that off-hand. I think most people in the UK get an oil change as part of the manufacturer's full service. This is usually at 10,000- 20,000 miles or every 12 months. There doesn't appear to be many of the stand-alone oil-changing companies you have in the US. The last full service on my Nissan Micra, at a main dealer, cost £170, including an MOT. The car is three years' old.

[Rick]

As I have said before, every time this topic is raised on the SDMB, the"change the oil every 3000 miles" seems only to be confined to the US. In the UK and the rest of Europe it is quite common to have the manufacturer recommend oil changes of between 10,000 and 20,000 miles. We are not just talking about the very expensive cars , but equally to Fords , Peugeots and Fiats etc. So why the big difference ? As as been said above , it seems to be just a money making exercise from the oil-change companies.
First off go back and read post #19 where I explained that the oils used in Europe are different than the oils used here in the US. Those little cryptic letters like A1, A3, or A5 mean a whole bunch when it comes to quality.
Secondly, the 3,000 miles lube it or lose it is what Iffy Lube uses for an oil change recommendations, not what the people that built the engine say when it should be changed. (Yeah I know that some dealers also push this, but Iffy Lube is by far the largest offender, and the only one that advertises nationally) Iffy Lube is in the business of selling oil changes. They employ under trained induhviduals who will try to upsell you anything and everything, needed or not.

[Rayne Man]

So why doesn't the USA change over to the same sort of oil that is used in Europe?

[Rick]

Demand would be a big part of it. ACEA is a European outfit From my link in post #19ACEA, Association of European Automotive Manufacturers The Association was established in 1991 with the participation of the 14 largest European vehicle manufacturers (BMW, DAF, Fiat, Ford, GM, MAN, Mercedes-Benz, Porsche, PSA, Renault, Rolls-Royce, Scania, VW, and Volvo).
Of those makers listed the following don't sell cars in the US:
DAF, Fiat, MAN, PSA, Renault, Scania
The listing of Ford and GM are for the European divisions of those companies, not the American arms. Either those engines are not sold over here, or if they are it is easier just to adopt the US intervals.
So we are left with BMW, Mercedes, Porche, Rolls Royce, VW and Volvo. Of these only VW is really a volume seller of cars in the US.
Now you get into a chicken / egg problem. Nobody sells ACEA A5 rated oil in bulk (the only way a dealer or service department will sell oil), since none of the car makers require it in this market.* None of the car makers require it, becasue it is unavailable in bulk.



*I believe BMW does require ACEA A5 oil, but they pay for the services for the first 50,000 miles or so as part of the cost of the car. I do not know where they source their oil.

[Mr. Slant]

SNIP
*I believe BMW does require ACEA A5 oil, but they pay for the services for the first 50,000 miles or so as part of the cost of the car. I do not know where they source their oil.

BMW has a long-standing relationship with Castrol. If you get a synthetic oil change at a BMW dealer, you'll get Castrol Syntec. Or else your dealer is annoying someone in Munich.
As to the issue that's been raised of "WTF don't we do the European thing" I really think it's a freaking cultural artifact. For some reason they got it and we didn't, and now we're being lazy about switching over since it's basically a break-even decision.
Short intervals on cheap oil or long intervals on expensive oil wind up being a near-wash financially.
The biggest pluses for long oil change intervals are reduced hassle (don't go in for service as often..) and environmental bonuses (less waste oil when it gets changed once per year rather than once per season.)
One theory I've seen posited is that cars have a different social meaning in Europe, and that expensive infrequent oil changes make more sense to upper-class consumers than they do to lower-middle-class consumers. Perhaps mass transit actually works in much of Europe (unlike 96% of the USA) and cars seem to be less affordable to lower classes there than here, they may make some sense. Rich folk are stingy with their time, and might be willing to pay a premium to NOT have to waste time fooling with taking their cars in for service.
Are passenger cars on the continent like they are in the middle of big cities in the US? Only near-rich guys bothering to operate 'em?
Rick, I'm betting that if any of the big three decided their service fills for all future passenger cars were going to be A5/B5, then the next month we'd have 55-gallon drums of A5-rated oil available at your local bulk lubricant distributor.
Coincidentally, I'd also bet that it'd take you folks a decade of beating the consumer upside his head about not putting non-A5 oil in his car before he started listening.

[Rayne Man]

The UK is a first-world country you know! Out of population of 60 million there are 30 million cars in the country . These are the figures for some other European countries :-
France: 29 160 000 cars
Germany: 44 657 300 cars
Italy: 38 476 479 cars
Spain: 25 169 400 cars
Scandinavia combined: 11 619 187 cars

France , Spain and Germany all have populations of between 50 and 70 million.
So car ownership is not confined to the privileged upper classes.

[Mr. Slant]

Hmmm.

"According to the BTS, at the end of 1999, there were 132.4 million
passenger cars, 75.4 million light trucks (minivans, SUVs, pickup
trucks, etc.) for a total of 207.8 million vehicles. There were
another 4.2 million motorcycles."
The US has about 298 million in population.
I don't think the facts refute my theory, nor do they prove it.

[1] http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=146894

[Rick]

I don't think Mr. Slant was trying to slam the UK or any other European country. I know I was not. But the fact remains that in the year 2000 the US had a population of about 275,000,000 and 225,821,841 registered highway vehicles.
Mr. Slant is entirely correct to state that different countries have different attitudes about cars, and philosophy about how a car should run / work etc.
The very first book I ever read on auto repair How to Repair your foreign Car by Dick O'kane (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0385015283/qid=1136753006/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-3379527-3147853?n=507846&s=books&v=glance) talked about this.
On a more recent note, working for a European car maker I can tell you that cultural differences sometimes make for huge problems.
Mr. Slant you are entirely correct IMHO about what would happen if General Motors or Toyota all of a sudden required A5/B5 oil.

[Mr. Slant]

Hey, uh, in case you thought I was slamming the UK or any other EU member state, I wasn't. I was just remarking that your public transportation is better and guessing that it's more expensive to own a car where you are than where I am, especially with the way public policy is slanted in most of the EuroZone. High general taxes and high gas prices don't make for low-cost motoring. I know vehicle operator licensing is way less casual over there than in most US states.
I don't have a lot of problem in the way of nationalism/racism bias.
Now if you were accusing me of being biased in matters of religion, social class or IQ, I would plead no contest....

[Zeriel]

Jeesh! What the heck kind of wierd cars do you drive?

2003 Dodge Neon SXT, lots of city driving. Owner's manual says 3k/3mo oil changes for severe driving conditions, and I do love to abuse my cheapass compact sedan.

In theory if I were doing the "light duty" maintenance track, with lots of highway driving, it'd be a 6k interval.

[Merijeek]

It is a 2004 Honda Accord.

The owner's manual has, for normal driving conditions, an oil change schedule of every 10,000 miles or once every year.

I meant to ask about this on here as well. I've got an '05 Accord and when I saw that in the owner's manual it seemed really weird to me too. Last I heard it's supposed to be 3,000 miles. Period.

But then again, most of what I know about oil comes from commercials starring Denis Leary.

Due to a fuckup on my old car (they stripped out the plug, then stuffed something in there so I had no way of noticing until my NEXT oil change somewhere else - I did wonder why it took like 2 hours to changed the damned oil!) I always just stand there and watch them the whole time...

-Joe

[Gary T]

Last I heard it's supposed to be 3,000 miles. Period.
Heard from where? Consider the source. Most auto repair facilities, especially the quick lube places, stick with a 3 month/3,000 interval. This was correct for most cars a couple of decades ago, and for a few cars now (for severe service). However, it's largely obsolete.

With a few rare exceptions, the schedule in the owner's manual is the correct and authoritative one to follow. Through most of the 80's and 90's, virtually all Japanese cars had a 7500/3750 mile (normal/severe) recommendation. For the last ten or so years, the majority of cars have had severe service recommendations of over 3,000 miles. The fact that most auto service facilities are still saying 3,000 miles for all cars isn't because the factory schedule in owner's manuals are wrong, it's because those facilities have chosen to ignore the factory schedule. The reasons may greed, laziness, or ignorance, but in the overwhelming majority of cases they don't have any sound technical reason to hold onto the out-of-date 3,000 mile interval -- only greed, laziness, or ignorance.

In other words, what you've heard, though a popularly held and widespread notion, is for most cars simply wrong.