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StewieGriffin420
01-14-2006, 05:50 PM
Has there ever been a case where a baby survived an abortion?

Q.E.D.
01-14-2006, 06:08 PM
By definition, no. The same way that, again by definition, no one has ever survived electrocution. Now, if you want to know if there have ever been any botched attempted abortions, that's another matter entirely. I'm sure there have been.

metj
01-14-2006, 08:56 PM
Here (http://members.tripod.com/~joseromia/survivors.html) is a website that lists some. I had only heard of the first one previously - I think she does public speaking around the country against abortion.

ivylass
01-14-2006, 10:23 PM
The same way that, again by definition, no one has ever survived electrocution.

If you mean death by electric chair, then you're right. If you mean struck by lightning, there have been many cases where people survive.

Colibri
01-14-2006, 10:27 PM
If you mean death by electric chair, then you're right. If you mean struck by lightning, there have been many cases where people survive.

From Merriam Webster:

elec·tro·cute

1 : to execute (a criminal) by electricity
2 : to kill by electric shock

Electrocution, like abortion, by defintion means that the subject dies.

Scruloose
01-14-2006, 10:28 PM
If you mean death by electric chair, then you're right. If you mean struck by lightning, there have been many cases where people survive.
I believe Q.E.D. is referring to the fact that the definition of electrocution is to kill by electricity or electric shock. To survive such an ordeal would mean you weren't electrocuted, but rather you were shocked.

Q.E.D.
01-14-2006, 10:29 PM
If you mean death by electric chair, then you're right. If you mean struck by lightning, there have been many cases where people survive.
No, what I mean is that the term electrocution is defined as "death by electricity". If you get shocked, but don't die, you weren't electrocuted. It's a pet peeve of mine, you see.

Scruloose
01-14-2006, 10:29 PM
Yeah, what Colibri said.

Q.E.D.
01-14-2006, 10:31 PM
*shakes fist at the fast typists*

Fear Itself
01-14-2006, 11:46 PM
It's a pet peeve of mine, you see.How do you feel about people who survive drowning?

Q.E.D.
01-14-2006, 11:54 PM
How do you feel about people who survive drowning?
Surprised.

picunurse
01-14-2006, 11:56 PM
How do you feel about people who survive drowning?
They don't. Someone submerged for a long period who does not die in a near-drowning.

friedo
01-15-2006, 12:00 AM
And what of people who die from a near miss?!

picunurse
01-15-2006, 12:07 AM
An abortion is the spontanous or induced evacuation of the products of conception during the first 12 weeks of gestation. Since a fetus of less than 22 weeks is non-viable, outside the womb, by definition, an abortion can't survive.

Revtim
01-15-2006, 12:08 AM
They don't. Someone submerged for a long period who does not die in a near-drowning.What if the person requires resuscitation? Could it not be said they drowned and survived?

jasonh300
01-15-2006, 12:14 AM
And what of people who die from a near miss?!

The near miss didn't kill them but they might've been scared to death (http://www.straightdope.com/columns/060106.html) as a result. :dubious:

Walloon
01-15-2006, 12:34 AM
From Merriam-Webster:
abortion
Function: noun
1 : the termination of a pregnancy after, accompanied by, resulting in, or closely followed by the death of the embryo or fetus: as a : spontaneous expulsion of a human fetus during the first 12 weeks of gestation — compare MISCARRIAGE b : induced expulsion of a human fetus c : expulsion of a fetus by a domestic animal often due to infection at any time before completion of pregnancy — compare CONTAGIOUS ABORTION

Bryan Ekers
01-15-2006, 01:25 AM
What do they call it after 12 weeks? I was not previously aware of this benchmark.

Good Egg
01-15-2006, 01:29 AM
I read of a case, in some christian literature. The weird part is the woman's name (who survived the abortion attempt) was Salina! (I trust you get it)

picunurse
01-15-2006, 05:38 AM
What if the person requires resuscitation? Could it not be said they drowned and survived?
No, they are still a near drowning. They are near drownings until they're in a body bag.


The 12 week time frame is used in the case of spontanous abortion. After 12 weeks it's a miscarriage.
I'd rather not discuss elective termination. I've tried in the past, to shed light on the subject, only to be shouted down as a baby hater/killer. :rolleyes:
'nite, all

Revtim
01-15-2006, 08:36 AM
No, they are still a near drowning. They are near drownings until they're in a body bag.What they are quickly placed in the body bag, THEN resuscitated? ;)

WhyNot
01-15-2006, 09:31 AM
During the congressional meetings regarding late term, partial birth abortions, at least two nurses testified that they had been present when a fetus "slipped out" still alive. It's theoretically possible, but they were certainly not presenting unbiased testimony. I can't find any sites on it right now except for some ugly anti-choice sites, so I won't link to them. Google right to a dead baby if you want to search yourself.

Guinastasia
01-15-2006, 02:53 PM
I read of a case, in some christian literature. The weird part is the woman's name (who survived the abortion attempt) was Salina! (I trust you get it)


I don't get it.

Walloon
01-15-2006, 03:03 PM
In one method of abortion, a strong saline solution is injected into the amniotic sac.

Guinastasia
01-15-2006, 03:21 PM
Ah, I see. Thanks.

Hombre
01-15-2006, 03:51 PM
No, they are still a near drowning. They are near drownings until they're in a body bag.

Depends on the time frame, no? If someone would go on to die (for good) if not resuscitated, then before said resusitation begins that person could be said to have drowned.

Revenant Threshold
01-15-2006, 04:03 PM
No, they are still a near drowning. They are near drownings until they're in a body bag.

Given Colibri and Walloon's posts, it seems in order to be counted the person has to die. And in some cases, people may die and then be resuscitated - So i'd count that as an actual drowning. It doesn't say in the definition death has to be permanent.

Happy Lendervedder
01-15-2006, 04:16 PM
My dad's a murder-by-gunshot survivor.

Revtim
01-15-2006, 04:17 PM
My dad's a murder-by-gunshot survivor.Did he die and have to be resuscitated?

Fear Itself
01-15-2006, 04:51 PM
My dad's a murder-by-gunshot survivor.No, he survived a murder attempt. It's like saying someone came back from the dead; it is an oxymoron, because death is by definition, the permanent cessation of of life. If you come back, you weren't dead.

I hope I haven't inadvertently summoned you-know-who...

Colibri
01-15-2006, 04:59 PM
Perhaps he was only mostly dead.

alphaboi867
01-15-2006, 06:36 PM
During the congressional meetings regarding late term, partial birth abortions, at least two nurses testified that they had been present when a fetus "slipped out" still alive. It's theoretically possible, but they were certainly not presenting unbiased testimony. I can't find any sites on it right now except for some ugly anti-choice sites, so I won't link to them. Google right to a dead baby if you want to search yourself.
I remember having a speaker in high school describing how in late term abortions the fetuses frequently came out alive and had to be "drowned in a bucket". :rolleyes:

beagledave
01-15-2006, 06:47 PM
I remember having a speaker in high school describing how in late term abortions the fetuses frequently came out alive and had to be "drowned in a bucket". :rolleyes:


Guess folks aren't afraid to make political hay in GQ...FWIW, have a gander at googling Raymond Showery.

Happy Lendervedder
01-15-2006, 07:26 PM
No, he survived a murder attempt. It's like saying someone came back from the dead; it is an oxymoron, because death is by definition, the permanent cessation of of life. If you come back, you weren't dead.
Yeah, I was pretty much kidding. An unfunny joke, if you will (I know, I know, oxymoron...).

My dad did survive a gunshot wound to the head, though.

elfkin477
01-15-2006, 07:44 PM
Here (http://members.tripod.com/~joseromia/survivors.html) is a website that lists some. I had only heard of the first one previously - I think she does public speaking around the country against abortion.

Yup, Gianna Jessen does a lot of public speaking. I'm reading a book about her now, actually. Her mother was 7.5 months pregnant when she went in for a saline abortion, and instead of delivering a dead fetus as expected, Gianna was born alive and rushed to a nearby hospital. Sadly, she has cerebral palsy as a result of the attempted abortion. She clearly prefers that to being dead, though.

kanicbird
01-15-2006, 08:21 PM
No, what I mean is that the term electrocution is defined as "death by electricity". If you get shocked, but don't die, you weren't electrocuted. It's a pet peeve of mine, you see.

Perhaps the loophole here is the word death. Haven't some people qualified as clinically dead but brought back?

Fear Itself
01-15-2006, 08:35 PM
Perhaps the loophole here is the word death. Haven't some people qualified as clinically dead but brought back?If some one is revived after clinical death, the only conclusion is, the means of detecting clinical death is imperfect.

Guinastasia
01-15-2006, 09:05 PM
Guess folks aren't afraid to make political hay in GQ...FWIW, have a gander at googling Raymond Showery.


I did and NOT to make this political, but I only got very hardcore anti-choice sites. There was no entry for him on Wiki or anywhere else.

kanicbird
01-15-2006, 09:10 PM
If some one is revived after clinical death, the only conclusion is, the means of detecting clinical death is imperfect.

I can agree with that, but dopers are arguing over the symantics of abortions and electrocution means death so that means people can't 'survive' it, but using their symantics death itself is not final and people can survive that - at least for a while.

Revenant Threshold
01-15-2006, 09:13 PM
If some one is revived after clinical death, the only conclusion is, the means of detecting clinical death is imperfect.

Either that, or the body retains the biological wherewithal to be resuscitated. Why must it be that they didn't die?

Walloon
01-15-2006, 11:56 PM
I did and NOT to make this political, but I only got very hardcore anti-choice sites.Well, using a term like "anti-choice" automatically makes it political.

Guinastasia
01-16-2006, 12:47 AM
Well, sorry 'bout that. Let's just say some very hardcore anti-abortion sites, or pro-life, or whatever the preferred term was.

Saint Cad
01-16-2006, 12:49 AM
How do you feel about people who survive drowning?

Surprised.

Why? Drowning is the inhilation or draining of water into the lungs - NOT the death from the same.

Q.E.D.
01-16-2006, 01:10 AM
Why? Drowning is the inhilation or draining of water into the lungs - NOT the death from the same.
Yes, it is (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drowning). If you survive, it's merely a near drowning.

picunurse
01-16-2006, 02:48 AM
Given Colibri and Walloon's posts, it seems in order to be counted the person has to die. And in some cases, people may die and then be resuscitated - So i'd count that as an actual drowning. It doesn't say in the definition death has to be permanent.
No, to die, medically and legally, you must be brain dead. Your heart stopping and having your chest pounded upon, isn't considered "dying."
No one has ever been rescued from brain death.
Resuscitation is simple part of on-going treatment.

Revenant Threshold
01-16-2006, 02:56 AM
No, to die, medically and legally, you must be brain dead. Your heart stopping and having your chest pounded upon, isn't considered "dying."
No one has ever been rescued from brain death.
Resuscitation is simple part of on-going treatment.
Ah, ok. My ignorance has been fought. :)

Yllaria
01-16-2006, 03:12 AM
So to qualify, you'd have to be not resuscitated but resurrected, right?

(The medical forms never ask if you want to be resurrected.)

irishgirl
01-16-2006, 07:34 AM
Before the advent of Mifepristone (RU-486), late term (past 15 weeks or so) therapeutic abortions were sometimes performed by caesarean. Which was carried out just like a term c-section, but the baby wasn't resuscitated if it showed signs of life.

Now most terminations after 24 weeks (about the limit of viability) are medical rather than surgical, mifepristone is used to terminate the pregnancy and 48 hours later or so drugs are given which cause the uterus to contract and the foetus to be delivered.

A very early first trimester suction termination of pregnancy will occasionally miss the pregnancy sac, and the pregnancy may contine. The majority of these women will repeat the procedure, some will, of course, choose not to.

5% of first trimester medical (Mifepristone) terminations are unsuccessful, and again the majority of women affected will choose to repeat the procedure (usually surgically). Some will, of course, choose not to, but there is a real risk of serious damage to the foetus from the mifepristone.

gigi
01-16-2006, 12:15 PM
During the congressional meetings regarding late term, partial birth abortions, at least two nurses testified that they had been present when a fetus "slipped out" still alive. It's theoretically possible, but they were certainly not presenting unbiased testimony.
Doesn't a partial-birth abortion sometimes mean having the head come out and then some sort of procedure done to the brain? Isn't it possible that with the head out, the rest of the body would slip out easily? I know they aren't done very often but it certainly seems like this slipping could happen. Is the baby then considered living outside of the womb and not able to be killed?

Also, is there any truth to the TV show representation of a disabled person suing for wrongful life, the premise being that the parents could have known of the disability through pre-natal testing and chosen abortion rather than the resulting suffering (the opposite of the woman mentioned who prefers to be alive and disabled)?

WhyNot
01-16-2006, 12:30 PM
Doesn't a partial-birth abortion sometimes mean having the head come out and then some sort of procedure done to the brain? Isn't it possible that with the head out, the rest of the body would slip out easily? I know they aren't done very often but it certainly seems like this slipping could happen. Is the baby then considered living outside of the womb and not able to be killed?

The way it's reported on the websites I could find was that at least sometimes, the baby was killed or left to die on its own. I'm afraid this is now straying far from GQ, however, as there are lots of factual errors on the same websites. I do not know where to find the original congressional testimony, perhaps someone else can find out.

It was, in particular, the phrase "right to a dead baby" which stuck in my head from those hearings, and which I googled to confirm my memory.

Enola Straight
01-16-2006, 01:54 PM
If we accept the general, non-medical definition of abortion as being the artificial termination of any operation or state prior to that state's natural completion, then even inducing a premature birth to save a baby's life can be called an abortion.

Tibby or Not Tibby
01-16-2006, 01:59 PM
Has there ever been a case where a baby survived an abortion?

Yes, I did.
...and I still have a few trust-issues with mom.

StewieGriffin420
01-16-2006, 03:27 PM
Yes, I did.
...and I still have a few trust-issues with mom.

WHhhhhhhhhattt?

Bryan Ekers
01-17-2006, 08:56 PM
WHhhhhhhhhattt?


He got her back, though, by leaving a time-bomb in her uterus.


Happy fiftieth birthday, Mother....






(I trust I won't have to explain that joke)

bup
01-17-2006, 09:13 PM
No, to die, medically and legally, you must be brain dead. Your heart stopping and having your chest pounded upon, isn't considered "dying."
No one has ever been rescued from brain death.
Resuscitation is simple part of on-going treatment.Not necessarily a loaded question - What about people who have "come to life" during their wake? Or "come to life" after being buried or entombed?

Does modern science know they weren't ever brain dead?

Sorry (slightly) for the hijack - but I'm curious.