religious symbols in CA state seal

[filmyak]

I was discussing the removal of religious symbols from government facilities with a colleague the other day, and he brought up a situation I'm not particularly aware of. Says they recently removed a cross from the California state seal, but that they left in the pagan god of agriculture. He says that's hypocrisy. I can't say I fully agree or disagree.

After all, Christianity is the largest religion in the world, and the atheist in me is very glad to get all religious symbols the hell out of my gov't. On the other hand, the pagan god doesn't bother me at all. I have no problem for a symbol of soil fertility and harvest, and from my POV, paganism just isn't taken remotely seriously as a religion anymore. I mean you have the occasional flake who says they're pagan, but I don't think even they really believe in a god for the harvest actually existing and hanging out with the other gods up on Mt. Wherevertheyare.

Sorry for the lack of a specific question -- other than a cheesy and unanswerable "am I right or wrong?" -- but I would love to hear thoughts from other dopers on the use of paganism / obscure religions on gov't property...

[John Mace]

I was discussing the removal of religious symbols from government facilities with a colleague the other day, and he brought up a situation I'm not particularly aware of. Says they recently removed a cross from the California state seal, but that they left in the pagan god of agriculture. He says that's hypocrisy. I can't say I fully agree or disagree.
That was the city seal of Redlands or teh seal of LA county, not the CA state seal. Unless you have a cite...?

I'm not sure what pagan symbol you're talking about. Perhaps you can do some research before this thread goes further and make sure you have your facts stragiht. My friends said such-and-such... is not a good way to start off a debate. :)

[Neurotik]

The California state seal has neither a pagan goat god nor a cross on it. It does have a miniature bear, though, and I've always suspected it's plotting to eat the miner.

What your friend is referring to is the Los Angeles County seal. Unfortnately for your friend, both the pagan goddess Pomona, the cross and the oil derricks were removed. Pomona was replaced with a generic native American woman. The cross was originally symbolic of the area's Spanish missions, but they just removed that and replaced the oil derricks with a representation of the San Gabriel mission. So no hypocrisy. I'm sure he'll be glad to know.

[panamajack]

The state seal does have the goddess Minerva on it, though. It's still hardly meant in a religious context.

Here's a few pictures to examine for yourself:
Great Seal (http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/photos/santa_barbara_california/pages/elephant%20seal%20&%20calf.htm)
of California (http://www.learncalifornia.org/doc.asp?id=909).

[filmyak]

Perhaps you can do some research before this thread goes further and make sure you have your facts stragiht. My friends said such-and-such... is not a good way to start off a debate. :)

Sorry, I keep forgetting that my friends are idiots and I shouldn't trust anything they say. Hehehehe. And Neurotik, thanks for the detailed clarification!

[filmyak]

Great Sea

LOL

[John Mace]

Sorry, I keep forgetting that my friends are idiots and I shouldn't trust anything they say. Hehehehe. And Neurotik, thanks for the detailed clarification!
Here's a history of the LA seal. (http://lacounty.info/seal%20history.htm)

September 14, 2004. The Board approved a modified version of the seal after the ACLU, claiming it was illegal to include the cross on the seal due to its religious nature, threatened to take the County to court. In the redesign, not only was the cross removed, but also the oil derricks and the Goddess Pomona. Some members of the public had criticized inclusion of the pagan Goddess Pomona if the cross was to be removed. A native Indian woman replaced her. The oil derricks were removed to make room for a mission, which was added to take note of the settling of the area by the Spaniards. The decision to change the seal was so controversial that residents several times circulated petitions to allow a public vote on the matter, but they were unable to obtain enough signatures to put the issue on the ballot.

[Moirai]

Replacing a cross with a picture of a mission... Okay, yeah, that's better.

:dubious:

[John Mace]

Replacing a cross with a picture of a mission... Okay, yeah, that's better.

:dubious:
That's a pretty generic building, and could just easily be an example of "mssion stye architecture" as an actual msision. Keep in mind, this is the seal for Los Angeles*... not exactly a secular name to begin with! :) Hell, if we went totaly PC, we'd have to remain half the cities in our state (although not yours).

*whose county seat, the City of Los Angeles is a shortened version of the original: El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Ángeles sobre El Rio Porciuncula, ("The Town of Our Lady the Queen of the Angels on the River Porciuncula").

[filmyak]

the City of Los Angeles is a shortened version of the original: [I]El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Ángeles sobre El Rio Porciuncula


Ay, caramba!!

[SteveG1]

Maybe if Conan the Destroyer gets re-elected, we'll get to finally see what the great god Crom looks like :D

[Apos]

If he or anyone else starts worshipping Minerva, he can feel free to lobby to get it off. Personally, I'd put issues like this, including a cross, pretty low down on the "important issues of SoCaS" list. It's too bad it was there, but I wouldn't have put much effort into getting it off.

[John Mace]

If he or anyone else starts worshipping Minerva, he can feel free to lobby to get it off. Personally, I'd put issues like this, including a cross, pretty low down on the "important issues of SoCaS" list. It's too bad it was there, but I wouldn't have put much effort into getting it off.
It's all part of the War on Christmas! :D

[Yookeroo]

Replacing a cross with a picture of a mission... Okay, yeah, that's better.

:dubious:

A mission would make some sense on the state seal. Missions are pretty big part of California history. I don't think there was on in El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Ángeles sobre El Rio Porciuncula, so maybe not so much sense on the city seal.

Crosses should be right out, of course.

[FriarTed]

It's all part of the War on Christmas! :D

No, both it & the Christmas controversy are part of the War on Christianity.