Women Vs Women (no, not in bikinis)

This is the spin-off from the "Only Bisexuals Can't Play" From MPSIMS.

I used to think I didn't like other women very much but then I realized, I just don't like other people very much ;). True, most of my friends are men but I think this is because my friends tend to be my coworkers and my coworkers are normally men. I'm the only female in the place where I work now.

Anyway, today's subject is "Women who dislike other women and men they love"... :)

YES!!! YES!!! YES!! That sums it up perfectly!!! I hate all people the same!! I get along with men about as well as I get along with women, and just as I realize it's wrong to say I hate all men (even though I have learned that most of them are heartless, filthy, ratfucking, lying, cheating, good for nothing, bastards) based on the actions of a select few, it is equally wrong for me to say I hate all women just because some of them happen to be stupid backstabbing bitches.

I have a general disdain for all people. Some just grow on me and then I stop wishing them a fiery death.

Well, I have to say that I generally don't like people either, but there's definitely more women I dislike than men I dislike.

Stuff I have trouble with:

Dealing only with emotions, and not with the real world. I know many women, some even friends of mine, who just don't get it. They fall for every political or media ploy, and when you point out that what the real issue is, they argue forever in favor of whatever tangent they've heard, despite all evidence to the contrary. I don't mean stuff about opinions - I mean cold, hard facts that can be proven.

Same thing in relationships. They pull stuff that if their boyfriends did the same thing, they'd be bitching to high heaven. They don't get it that there is not a separate set of rules for men and women. Respect, politeness, and compassion work both ways.

Hmmm... what else? Feminist stuff that promote women OVER men. Originally, feminism meant that men and women were equal. That's the definition I subscribe to. Lately, though, feminism means that women are somehow "better" than men. For example, the other day I was browsing a personal web page for a group of women who were bicyclists. They took great pains to say that they did NOT ride with men, men were NOT welcome to ride with them, this was a SISTERHOOD thing.

Imagine a group of men doing the same thing. "We don't want women riding with us!" I bet the same women who formed this club would be frothing at the mouth, complaining of abuse.

And my last rant for the day (I'm sure I'll think of more tomorrow) - this mythical idea that "all women are sisters" and that there's some connection between us all. I feel no connection to the bulk of women in the world. Sure, I have a connection with my friends, but it's not particularly different between male friends and female friends.

I'm done for now. Flame away.

Athena! Thank you for saying what I could never have gotten away with. Have you seen this? http://www.theonion.com/onion3404/lilithfair.html

I must admit, that while I don't hate all mankind, I do far prefer the company of the average animal to that of the average human. Cats, dogs, horses; every animal I've ever spent any time with was preferable company to most people I know.

Just out of curiosity, how many responders are actually computer nerds? Is this correlated with misanthropy, as we so often hear?

Can't stand women. Like I want to sit around and file my nails and discuss the latest fashion trends. Barf. I have exactly one female friend. If they were all like her, I'd have more (although I must say the comments you ladies have made on the board make me think there may be hope for womankind yet!)
Men are much easier to talk to. They don't read things into every little jesture and statement. The don't get offended (well, not easily anyway). When you speak to a man, you need only say what you mean, and he takes it as such. Never works that way with a woman.
Now granted, in terms of romantic relationships, men are pigs, but for friendship (and maybe the occasional roll in the hay) they can't be beat.

------------------
"I think it would be a great idea" Mohandas Ghandi's answer when asked what he thought of Western civilization

Oh, and they're always bitching about their husbands/boyfriends. Like I want to hear it! If you don't like him. leave him, for god's sake but shut up about it already.

------------------
"I think it would be a great idea" Mohandas Ghandi's answer when asked what he thought of Western civilization

Hmmm...very interesting. Topolino, you say you don't like people, but then say that you do have friends. Well, friends are people you've gotten to know. I don't like people who are rude, inconsiderate, who lie, cheat, steal, etc., etc. But I find that most people I meet are okay after I get to know them better. I think we all have our guard up until we get to know someone well. I,too, like men better than women (I'm a woman). In my many years in the workplace, I've had more trouble from women -- malicious gossip and backstabbing. I did have one male boss who was a male chauvinist pig, but I had another male boss who taught me a lot and was a mentor. In general, I find that men are more straightforward and easier to deal with. Where I work, it's the women who are the ass-kissers and would climb over your dead body on their way up the career ladder.

Hmmm...very interesting. Topolino, you say you don't like people, but then say that you do have friends. Well, friends are people you've gotten to know.

I'm sorry. I should have said "I just don't like MOST other people very much." Of my coworkers, I don't care for the majority of them and, truthfully, I don't think they're clamoring for my company either. We don't go out of our way to bother each other but we merely tolerate each other. But, I have friends, yes. Most of them are male but I'm just around more guys than women.
Interestingly, my female friends tend to be significantly older than me (I tended to hang out with the female teachers when I was in school) while my male friends are my age.


Double standards for one. If a man has a hundred sexual partners.. he is a stud. "Way to go Bob, you screwed a hundred bitches." If a woman has the same number of partners she's a mega-slut. If I can open my own doors, change my own tires and am not afraid to kick ass if I have too, I'm a feminazi dyke. If I am helpless and demure and bat my eyelashes and act all sweet and nice, I am a pushover fu-fu bitch. Sometimes it feels like being a woman is a no win situation. IMHO it makes it especially hard when we do most of the bashing.

Absolutely.

I think the double standard is changing but slowly. They want you to have sex with them and then criticize you when you do. Nice little power play there.

We're just pitted against each other. I think it's a big problem when we start taking bites out of each other. I'm guilty of it too, but I also seethe about alot of the stuff I see guys do.

I wouldn't apologize to the all the men of the world for all of the women of the world. That's for sure. I think most groups of people, in the end, come out be about equal. Relationships are symboitic (sp?) in the grand scheme of things. I think we created each other, character flaws and all.

Well, all I can say is, "Gee, whiz!" I can't imagine not liking an entire group of people--maybe you folks are just all hanging out with real pig-ignorant trash or something. Don't get me wrong, I dislike an awful lot of people, but they seem to fall pretty evenly between the sexes. Would any of you even consider saying, "Well, I gotta admit, I don't much like black people," or "Those Asians--boy, do they get on my nerves," or "Goddam, but I can't stand Jews!" Just wonderin' . . .

>>Would any of you even consider saying, "Well, I gotta admit, I don't much like black people"

Well, if I had a significant number of experiences with people of a different race in which I came away annoyed, upset, or thinking they were just not logical, you bet I would say something like that. I'm not one for being PC or tiptoeing around the issue. However, I have NOT had that experience, so no, I don't get down on people because of their race.

IMO, the bulk of humanity are idiots. There seem to be more female idiots than male idiots. I don't believe all people are created equal - some people are smarter, wiser, whatever you want to call it, than other people. I don't think these people should have special privileges, that is, I think that although we are not created equal we should all be treated as if we were. However, that doesn't mean that I have to hang out with people I don't like.

Pick up your average women's magazine - it's fluff. And not only that, it ENCOURAGES women to act like children. Personal responsibility? No, we can't have that. Treating a man with respect? No, here's how to play games in order to "catch" him. Getting a career and supporting yourself? Sure, as long as it's "fun" and "fulfilling." If not - quit, and get your boyfriend/husband/parents to support you.

There's a weird standard out there that women themselves seem to perpetuate. Although women have come a long way in the past 50 years, there's still a perception that they (we?) are not quite adults, and are not really responsible for their own financial, emotional, or mental health. For example, I had a group of female and male friends I graduated from high school with. I'm fairly young - graduated in 1987. Of my friends, me and one other woman went to school and got jobs that we can actually live on. I'm an engineer (yes, a computer geek) and my friend is a doctor.

The others? One got a degree in German, another has a Music degree. One or two more got teaching degrees. One has an English degree. Quite a few more didn't get any degree, they either didn't go to college or only went until they got married. The point is, very few prepared themselves for the "real world" where you just can't support yourself, much less a family, on the jobs the degrees made available to them.

The men, on the other hand, routinely got degrees that allowed provided them with jobs where they can actually support themselves, and a family if they wanted one. One is a Physician's Assistant, and many more got engineering degrees.

Now, I know a degree and a job isn't everything. But, the ability to support yourself independently provides a degree of self esteem and personal responsiblity that I just don't see in the people who allow someone else to support them. Why aren't girls brought up to understand and prepare for this? Yes, motherhood is fine and dandy, but in this day and age you cannot expect to find a husband who will support you and your kids forever. Divorce and accidents happen. Single motherhood is a risk. Women should be prepared for this.

I agree with Flora. Maybe if you WOMEN spent less time complaining to other WOMEN on this message board about how much you dislike WOMEN, and spent more time getting to know real women, you would figure out we don't all spend our time filing our nails or talking about our boyfriends. Geez, if men made some of these comments, you'd probably be all over them for being sexist.

Overall, I would have to say some of you have some definite issues. I guess that is why you are posting in the bbq pit.

Personally, I am kind of the reverse. I am a guy and while I do not have many female friends now that I am married (I do not think it is a good idea for me to have female friends apart from my wife), when I was younger and not married, I had more female friends than male.

I like my guy friends, but guys feel they have to keep up this macho attitude and it gets so dull. With my female friends, I could be myself. That is why I was so attracted to my wife, I felt I did not have to be phony around her, I could be me and she loved me for who I was.

Though I have seen that women do have problems with other women. Guys get mad and slug it out and go have drinks. Girls get mad and eventually spread rumors or get revenge.

BTW, I am a computer nerd and I do like people.

Jeffery

Well, I'm a woman, and I have a lot of female friends--ages ranging from 20s to 88. Yes, sometimes we DO talk about girlie things like makeup and cats and clothes. But we also talk about life in general, politics, history, you name it. I do know one or two stupid,shallow women--but I don't hang around with them! I also have male friends who are capable of talking about more than sports or sex. Maybe I'm just really lucky and have not encountered too many stereotypical men and women?

Now, I know a degree and a job isn't everything. But, the ability to support yourself independently provides a degree of self esteem and personal responsiblity that I just don't see in the people who allow someone else to support them. Why aren't girls brought up to understand and prepare for this?

Maybe because of that idea that men don't like smart women. This idea was strong in my grandmother's generation so she taught my mom that she'd never find a husband to take care of her if she didn't shut up and act like a wimp. My mother REALLY wanted to go to college but her parents wouldn't help her and the college (IU, I think) wouldn't give her a scholarship unless she could tell them her father's yearly salary which he refused to tell her. Perhaps she should have lied or just waited until she was 18 and it didn't matter but since she couldn't figure out how to get into college that fall, she gave up.

She went to work, met my father, and got pregnant (with me...yay! uh, kinda). Now my dad, like many other men, didn't have a problem with smart women and didn't tell my mom what to think. My grandmother hated him...heh :). Anyway, fortunately my mom did not repeat the pattern with myself and my sister. We've both got degrees and we both know that, even though my father has proved reliable, we should really be able to take care of ourselves. It's fine to depend on your SO but I believe my bf should be able to depend on me as much as I do on him and, if I have noone, I should be able to support myself. Yes, I believe motherhood is noble and difficult and people (women and men) should always be able to depend on their spouse for support raising children but everyone needs to have themselves covered should something go wrong.

Semi-happy ending: My mom still battles the negativity she learned while young but she did go to college and get a degree. Also, I think it took a strong person to not repeat the pattern she learned from her parents.

Attacking each other isn't going to fix the problem though. Persistent reminders to younger girls that they need to eventually grow up, act responsibly, and educate themselves seems more hopeful. It hard to get thru the crap the media and society throws at you and come out strong and independent but it can be done if you have the right role models.

Thank you for coming to my lecture. I'll be speaking again at 3pm.

Just a reminder: your souls are androgynous and multi-colored.

And so am I, by the way.

Topolino, Athena...the rest, thank you for posting this issue here. I thought I was an island unto myself. Women in general drive me nuts.The panic, the wigging out, the flakiness that makes Shelly Long look like a Rhodes Scholar make my skin crawl. Sure, there are a few out there that are normal and slightly cynical like me, but I can't find them to talk to them.

I grew up in a male dominated family. By that I mean that were 23 male first cousins to three female (good catholics, eh?) The girls unequivocally ruled their respective brothers. I like men. I can relate to them on many more levels than women. Sure, I think sports are a colossal waste of time, but I'd rather watch curling than a cooking show any day of the week.

Men don't cry if you yell at them. God forbid if you shoot from the hip with a woman, they cough up a fur ball and then cry. Any woman who cries in an argument already realizes she has lost the argument and has resorted to tears to try to win by other malicous means.

Here is my theory: Because we have been raised on Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty and she-who-has-to-be-rescued-because-she-is-a-flake stories (Romance novels), our female conscienceness has been innundated from the beginning with the helpless mentality. Women have to be rescued from poverty, from low self-esteem, bad relationships and the like because it has been beaten into our female brains to wait for the Knight in Shining Armor. Self-sufficiency is something that is really looked down upon in our times.

My mother is a huge proponent of the women need men in their lives to do manly things. Yeah, I can burp and fart with the best of the men and I have my own tool box. It is amazing to me that I am so independant because of her attitude. Because I have 4, well 3 now, disabled older brothers, I learned very early on that I could not rely on them physically, financially or emotionally for any assistance whatsoever. I couldn't even get them to beat up and mean boyfriend ( if I ever had one, which I didn't) for me because of their condition. I had to learn to kick my own butt, so to speak :)

Another continuing issue that plagues me is that a woman must have a man in her life in order to be happy. If you are not happy with yourself, how in the world can any one be happy with you? When you truly are comfortable with who you are and the direction you are going in life, then you will really meet great guys with like minded interests and if things gel, your relationship will compliment each other.

If you date some guy and morph over to his ideology, customs and thinking, you are not being true to yourself and in the end, you will hate the changes. (or, if you are too stupid to notice these changes, your family will and they will hate your relationship in your stead.) You will hate these changes and will not recognize it until after the relationship ended because they were not what you were BECAUSE you were too immature/insecure with who you were at the time to have a concise opinion on whatever the subject matter was and therefore adapted this guys. ( I've seen this morphing in too many friends.) With each relationship, male or female, you evolve and learn things. At least, you are suppose to.

The other societal pressure that makes me want to scream is that a woman is not happy unless she has children. Bullshit. To say you know what is best for me is conceited and presumptuous. I was happy when I was child-free. I am happy (very much so) with my son. I'd be happy with a massage or moose tracks ice cream right now. BECAUSE I'M COMFORTABLE and SECURE WITH WHO I AM, DAMMIT. And I am damned by the lot of Shelly Longs out there because I am strong and I am comfortable and I am secure and that is a no- no in a world of clingy, whiny women.

This was a great topic to bring up.

Well, Shirl, I am perfectly happy being single and childless, I don't cry when yelled at, and I am self-sufficient. Am I really that unsual a woman? I don't think so, I certainly know others like myself! I also have a tool box, but as far as the bodily noises go . . . Well, you can just make those for BOTH of us, if it's all the same to you, dear.

Perhaps I was blessed. I was one of two daughters brought into the world by my parents. My mom thought both of us should go out and find wonderful husbands to take care of us as she had. My sister is on Husband #4. My dad, on the other hand, told me I could do anything I wanted to do...and I have. I'm making a great living, and, if I can't fix it myself, I've got enough money to have it repaired...or it's trashed.

I find myself equally able to discern between a decent male and a decent female for a friend. I don't put down either sex because of a male's preference for sports or a female's preference for hearth and home.

Uh-oh....maybe THAT's what I'm doing wrong??

I remember disliking women and girls when I was a teenager, but I haven't felt that way in years. Maybe moving out of the suburbs had something to do with it (or maybe I just discovered guys weren't that great either). Anyway, I think there are at least as many annoying men as annoying women, but the women are harder to get rid of. I don't have a hard time blowing off an obnoxious frat boy or an arrogant braggart (the two most common types of male pain-in-the-asses) but it's a lot harder for me to justify being rude to a woman just because she's ditzy or overly nervous. I feel like I just have to smile and tune her out.

I get along better with women as friends, as long as they're intelligent and like beer. Men make decent drinking buddies, but I've only ever had two guy friends with whom I felt comfortable talking about serious stuff, and one of them is gay. It's easier to be friends with someone where there's no sexual tension, in my experience ...

I agree with you, topolino, and I think the whole thing runs very deep. I've observed that even among women who HAVE degrees or some other means of supporting themselves, they often don't feel like they should have to.

I know a lot of male engineers. Many of them are in their 30's or early 40's, married, and have no children. Most of their wives are bright, intelligent women who have degrees in things like marketing, law, or other lucrative fields. The bulk of the wives feel that they should be able to do "fun" work that doesn't necessarily bring in money. We're talking lawyers making 20K/year, that sort of thing.

My male friends often express real resentment towards there wives for this. They say they feel obligated to take jobs that aren't personally fulfilling in order to bring home a big paycheck. They wonder why, given that there are no children and both partners have the ability to bring home equal amounts of money, the men are the ones who pay the bulk of everything and the women pursue low-stress, enjoyable jobs.

Now, I don't want to blame the women completely on this - the men SHOULD make their wives aware of the fact that they're unhappy with this arrangement, and I generally tell them to talk to their wives, but this is something I've personally heard from 3-4 men in the past year. Why is that?

I cannot believe the sexist bullshit I'm readin on this thread. You all might as well be talking about blacks and asians.

Last time I looked, when it came to assholes and angels, both genders were well represented.

I have had the good fortune to have a life filled with INDIVIDUALS. Some of them have penises, and some of them have vaginas. Interestingly enough, they were all unique in spite of that! Wow.



------------------
Stoidela

******Boycott shampoo! Demand REAL poo!******

Stoidela - ::applause:: Bravo!

I also can't believe some people are ready to trash the entire female gender because of a few people. Admittedly, I get along better with guys, mainly becuase I'm a sports and computer geek. However, I've had some great women friends, some great guy friends, and I've hated people from both groups as well. Some of you have complained about women thinking that they needed to be taken care of. I agree with this, but I've also seen this attitude a lot in men.

I guess I'm just reluctant to trash a whole group based on my opinions of a few people. I tend to hate the person more than whatever group they're associated with. JMO.

"I hate people. Do you hate people?"

"No. But I feel a lot better when they're not around"

-from the movie "Barfly"

One of the myriad reasons I opted not to have children.

One of my very closest friends DID choose to have kids, and she is an excellent mother who, like you it seems, has continued to be a well-rounded human being in spite of it.

The people she finds herself surrounded by because of the circumstnaces of her life, however, are like something out of my worst nightmare. No thank you!



------------------
Stoidela

******Thesaurus: An ancient reptile with an excellent vocabulary******

Let me clarify something, my opinions are my own and they do not reflect the norm. This, I have been aware of for years.

Ramble alert, and I apologize.

I haven't always had this distain for women because being a woman myself, I like to think of us as all powerful and omnipotent. Then I quit my job and had a baby to become a full time domestic tyrant. I lost any connection with intelligent women who posessed an ounce of common sense and open mindedness. I have been to playgrounds, library programs and the whatnot ( not easy for me because Its a haul to go anywhere from where I live) to find other moms to talk to. What I have discovered after 15 months of research is that there are a barrell full of mega-ignornant women out there who believe every UL, every old wives tale and the like that comes down the pipe. For me to calmly dispell these myths would take up all their time and frankly, they look like they want to beleive in the waking up in a tub of ice missing a kidney crap. That and they bitch, bitch bitch about their husbands or talk endlessly about their labors and the baby is 4 years old. C'mon, ladies it's time to move pass that episode in your life.

All these women do, that I can see, is shop at the mall or drag their kids to gymboree (which for our area is a 45 minute drive one -friggin'-way. Is it just me or driving that far to pay to play with your child for an hour and have them mingle and touch germ infested toys and kids just to haul their butts back home 45 minutes (after a stop at the mall, naturally.) doesn't make any sense. Either they have lots of money to spend it so frivolously or they are so desperately lonely and insecure that they try to fill the void in their lives and self-esteem by constantly buying crap they really don't need.

They defer to their husbands for every decision as if he is all superior in every subject Now, I beleive in discussing major decisions with your spouse, afterall constantly doing something without at least asking is just undermining the trust, but some are just better off him not getting involved in and finding out after the fact. This is always the case when you decide to cut your hair.

An example was I was out garage saling one day and I listened to these 40ish women complain about their husbands. One lady said, " I asked him if I could paint the family room and he said no."

I looked over and said, nicely, (something to the effect.) " You phrased that wrong. Never give someone ( male or female) an simple yes or no chance to answer when what your really want is their input. You have to show them their reasons of why this or that must be done this (your way) and be prepared to make a compromise to your plans. You have to phrase it like " This room has been this way since we moved in X years ago, the carpet is stained and the couch was from your Aunt Stella and she's been dead 15 years. I think I'll start with the walls. I can't decide what color would look better: Buttercup or Day lillyl. What do you think, dear?" As this will open up a line of communication. And if he completely vetoes it, wait until hunting season (they had a ton of camping/hunting stuff in the rafters of the garage) and redo the room yourself the way you want it."

The woman looked at me like I was covered in slime and said, " I could never do that, he would get so mad."

"So you could live in a room that you haven't liked for years because his word is final." (It wasn't phrased so direct, but you get the point.)

"Well, yes. he does bring in all the money and he works so hard to support us." Her exact words.

"What you have just told me is because you are a homemaker and do not earn money for a living, is that you are not entitled to a valid opinion. This is despite the fact that you take care of every detail inside the house, raised kids who are respected and keep a beautiful garden. etc and because you worked so hard to keep the expenses down you were able to send a kid to Michigan. (There was a bumper sticker on their car.).. I'll be honest with you, I thought your cramped and narrow minded mentality died when my 94 year old grandmother passed on." (The first and last line are verbatim, the rest is pretty close.)

ARGGGGGHHHHHHHH.

It is so frustrating for me. Most of these women do not read (anything, not even the newspaper), they think the Internet is just a Porno place and have innudated themselves with Teletubbies to not realize there is out there (somewhere) intelligent programming on TV for adults during the day. They are grossly misinformed, tend to be somewhat religous, undereducated ( not with a degree, per se, for I never finished college, but they don't fucking think for themselves.) They have retreated for far into there insular world that a nuclear blast could not extricate them from their little caves. Funny thing is is that what does get them back into the light is usually a divorce or death. (this happened with my Mom.) Having a conversation out there with these women is about as productive as banging my head against a rusty spike.

What I shall continue to look for is someone capable of intelligent repartee. Not necessarily deep or meaningful conversation ( I'm more of the bantering kind of person.), but full of spark and verve. I want to find someone with a light on behind their eyes. Right now, if it was not for this message board (and all those porno sights I can't live with out :) ) I know I would have cracked under the pressure and started liking the ladies on QVC and calling in to their show.

End Rant and please drive carefully.

[CatInHat]

What you have just told me is because you are a homemaker and do not earn money for a living, is that you are not entitled to a valid opinion. ... I thought your cramped and narrow minded mentality died when my 94 year old grandmother passed on.

No, Shirley, it hasn't (I wish!). My mother feels this way. If you ask her point-blank about raising kids, she says that staying home with your kids is the most important thing you can do. But she sneers at women who actually do this. She's said some really nasty things about one of my cousins (his wife stays home with the kids), mostly to the effect that staying home with them is a waste of time, and that my cousin-in-law isn't contributing anything to the family.

Frankly, her attitude scares me. I'd like to be able to stay home with the kids (when we have them), at least when they're little, if we can afford it. This should be our decision alone, but I just know that she's going to butt in there. It's not a good feeling, to know that your own mother thinks you're screwing up your whole life (although she's thought this for a while now, and I'm learning to live with it).

Yeah, I know there's a risk that I'll lose earning power if I take time off (or even if I take a "mommy track" job), but I think that the rewards are worth it.

Sorry, this got a little off the subject. I guess what I'm trying to say here is, this is a choice my husband and I need to make, and we would (I hope) both value each other's contributions to the family.

That's the end of my rant :)

------------------
The Cat In The Hat

[Shirley Ujest]

It sounds like you are in a Catch 22 with your mother. If you stay home with the future tykes, you are damned. If you go to work and put them in daycare, she'll probably turn her nose up at that to. She isn't happy with her life and she sounds like she may be trying to live hers through you. Either way, you are screwed.

My advise for yours to flush down the mental toilet if you so desire: Do what your heart says and if your mother or whomever is constantly bringing you down, then to either slow extricate yourself from their circle, which is hard when a parent is involved or tell them point blank that you would appreciate POSITIVE support and that negative talk will force you into therapy and really dis her at $150 an hour. :)

Avoid people who bring down your self confidence.

[Persephone]

I have freinds of both genders, and like them all. My best friends have been men, but I really can't say why. Just connect better with them, I guess.

My mom is a very independant woman, and encouraged me to be the same way. My dad encouraged me this way as well, bless him. While I never graduated from college, I have managed to make a decent living for myself. I'm married, with a 2 year old & one on the way. I have found that motherhood is the most satisfying job I've had. But here's where that old independent streak kicks in...

I support my family, my husband included. He is a musician, and works weekend nights. During the day, he is a stay-at-home dad. Got alot of raised eyebrows in my family when we first started having kids, because even though I come from a line of very strong women, that old "men must have day jobs" mentality wasn't quite gone. Didn't take long for them to realize just how good our arrangement is. One parent working and bringing home the money, the other at home, taking care of the kids. Now my family & friends think we are just terminally hip.

[Salieri2]

Everybody else is dealing with the real issues in this thread so well, I just want to comment on a little tangent--"women's magazines" like Cosmopolitan, etc. The existence of Cosmo used to drive me up the wall, too. The inane non-topics, the quizzes, the endless fashion updates, the pages and pages of sex tips. [Yes, I've read the thing upon occasion.] Then I read an article in the newspaper about the glam mags, and an editor mentioned that his stuff was read mostly by women with kids who use it as a sort of escapist fantasy--like relaxing in a tub with Ben & Jerry's, I think he said [some issues here no doubt, but I see his point.] Said the cardinal sin in glam magazines was to mention children, that the women who read this stuff are not necessarily believing each word of it, but merely enjoying the difference from their daily grind that the magazine illustrates. I buy it--the idea, not the mag. Compare it to a cheesy romance novel, a comic book, "Terminator 2"; escapist entertainment, not a realistic guide to living. Who would have the time to do all the daily/weekly/monthly beauty routines they list, anyway? If you think about it, the emphasis on Me Me Me Beauty Beauty Beauty Sex Sex Sex is in its own way a feminist reaction to the previous homogeneous women's fare of homemaking magazines with recipes and kids' rainy day projects. Selfishness, shallowness and obsession with sex is at least an alternative to what some may consider a confining role of selfless, nurturing mother. [Not my opinion as such, but an idea.]

I still hate the things, especially the cover cleavage photos and the general article theme of "How to Get and Keep A Man"--but I don't take them seriously because I don't know anyone of any intelligence who does, male or female.

[matt_mcl]

I don't personally believe this, but I thought you might be interested in Rebecca West, a noted feminist who said that the difference between men and women is that women are idiots and men are lunatics.

Matt, I love it--but I always thought it was the other way around!

[OldBroad]

Kudos to Falcon and Mazey who both seem to have a balanced perspective.

While I’ve had some wonderful female friends, I’ve generally found men to be better friends than women. For the most part I, too, am a woman who doesn’t like women very well. To make matters worse, the early feminists made me angry by their tactics. I thought they made women look foolish by quibbling over semantics. Example: “Chairman” describes the person who presides over the committee. “Chairperson” is awkward and unnecessary. Who gives a rat’s ass what you’re called if you have the position of power! The whole “person” thing still makes me crazy! I was one of the few young anti-feminist feminists in the 60’s.

I was a fairly pretty teenager who had a strange social life. Because I was a science nerd, I didn’t relate well to most other teenage girls and the boys wanted “girly” girls. So I dated men instead of boys. My parents were beside themselves.

Guess I’ve been lucky because in my jobs, me female co-workers were often a lot like me. I came up in a male-dominated work environment. I met my first computer in 1961 – it had vacuum tubes! Until quite recently, (by an old broad’s reckoning) there were few women who were involved in high tech. And I’ve always wanted and had a man in my life (just not always the same man).

Two stories from years ago:

1) Had a neighbor who was an educational consultant and worked from home. She’d sometimes attend the neighborhood daytime get-togethers, but usually found herself acting as the group babysitter because the found the kids to be more interesting company than their mothers were.

2) Was a full-time homemaker for 2 yrs after my second child was born. When I began looking for work again, my bridge club (all women) was full of good wishes and was cheering me on. Then I began getting serious interviews and job offers. The good wishes and good cheer evaporated and developed into an acid fog. In a similar situation, men might have felt the same emotions but would have handled them better I think.

To the other females on this thread who consider the gender in general to be insipid – you’re probably right, but you’re not going to change them. Just keep on keepin’ on & raise your sons & daughters to know better.

[corvidae]

Man, is this thread insulting!

I went to girl schools until university- and you know what? Women are not vapid, catty, shallow, backstabbing bitches everybody thinks they are. Nobody sat around waiting for some guy to rescue them because they believed in themselves and their own abilities, and we able to count on their female friends for support. We are not all Ally McBeal. Learn the difference.

[Diane]

This tread has be completely baffled.

I have quite a few male friends, a few are good for nothing more than a roll in the sack or to kill spiders, but most are very close and dear friends of mine.

However, there is no comparison when it comes to girlfriends. I have many and wouldn't trade them for the world. I love women (no, I am not gay). I truly pity women who are unable to know the feeling of friendship between females. JFTR - We do not sit around gossiping, backstabbing, giggling, filing our nails, bitching, or any of the other accusations flying through the posts.

I find it rather insulting that there are so many females on this board stereotyping women as catty, backstabbing, nailfiling, airheads. No wonder we have such rotten reputations.

Sheeesh!



------------------
>^,,^<
KITTEN

Coarse and violent nudity. Occasional language.

[tracer]

Well, Stella, that's obviously your fault for not being a mind-reader. ;)

[Stella*Fantasia]

Hey now, just because I file my nails doesn't make me an airhead!!

Seriously, I think it's a bad idea to say "women are shallow, catty, backstabbing bitches" & summararily dismiss half the human race like that. Having that attitude can cause one to miss out on a lot of great friendships.

That said, some women are annoying. (Some men are annoying, too, but there's a set of annoying behaviors which I have observed only in women.) The worst thing that I've noticed is that a lot of women have these unspoken expectations. They expect you to know what they want you to do, & then when you don't do it, they get all pissed off. I HATE that.