Ask the Service Dog Handler/Trainer...!

[Elenfair]

Inspired by the Pit Thread on Guide Dogs... I figured I might as well open up something here and offer to answer any and all questions regarding working dogs - be they service dogs, guide dogs, or other types of working dogs.

I'll do my best to reply to all questions!

Wuf.

[Athena]

That's so cool.

How in the world do you give them up when you're done training them? I have always avoided jobs that involve animals because I inevetably want to keep them all.

[Elenfair]

That's so cool.

How in the world do you give them up when you're done training them? I have always avoided jobs that involve animals because I inevetably want to keep them all.

It's hard at first... but you get used to it. You develop some form of detachement, really, and you know that when you're done with a pup, there's another one coming!

I'm not training anyone right now as I'm working with a service dog of my own, but I still do help with training and do AAT (Animal Assisted Therapy) work with my retired dog and my "program dropout".

[RyJae]

What breed of dog is easiest to train for service? Or does it depend on the service needed?

[Athena]

OK,I got another one.

Can I train my pugs to do anything useful? Like, say, the laundry?

What's the easiest thing to train a normal dog to do? What's hardest?

[Elenfair]

What breed of dog is easiest to train for service? Or does it depend on the service needed?

It kind of depends on the service needed. Some breeds seem to be better suited for this kind of work - they usually are breeds that are known to be very responsive to training, who like to please, and who are smart (but not so smart as to be totally bored with the job, either). We also look for breeds that, in any given litter, have the higher chance of success. In other words, a breed that tends to produce puppies that are pretty much equal across a litter. Some breeds, like, say, australian shepherds, tend to have such a wide variety of type and temperament in any given litter that we tend to hand pick those puppies rather than raise an entire litter as possible service or guide dogs.

Historically, most schools have used: German Shepherds, Golden Retrievers, Labrador Retrievers and Standard Poodles. These breeds tend to be predictable in temperament, size, and type - most schools breed their own.

We look for puppies who tend to be natural retrievers, as this often reflects a will to please. We also look for puppies with intense social drive (want to be with people!) and who are "middle of the road" dominance wise.

Wufs! My current working dog is an Australian Shepherd. He's bright, a fast learner, and a nice dog to work with, all around. That said, we lead a pretty active life... if I had a 9-5 office job, he'd be bored out of his mind and would come up with things to do all on his own ;)

[Elenfair]

OK,I got another one.

Can I train my pugs to do anything useful? Like, say, the laundry?

What's the easiest thing to train a normal dog to do? What's hardest?

Pugs are... well... small. They're also harder to train to be consistently obedient. ;) The easiest things to train "normal dogs" to do is, honestly, to *think*. Most people train their dogs with commands and treats, and by handling them into what they want - for example, teaching a puppy to sit by manipulating its butt down to the ground, then giving it a treat.

I train entirely using operant conditioning - producing thinking dogs who come up with things to try. It's slow to start, but once they figure out how it works, you have dogs who are willing to try all sorts of things to see if they'll get rewarded. It's behavior shaping, basically, and certainly at the core of many "tricks' we turn into "tasks" for service dogs.

The easiest thing to train are the basics: sit, down, stay, come, heel... it's hard to get a dog to learn other more complex things until you have those under your belt and they are reliable. Dogs tend to need to learn how to learn, ya know? Once they're in that frame of mind, it's easy to teach them some basic tricks: roll over, touch, fetch, spin... that sort of thing.

The hardest task, in my book, is teaching a dog to reliably retrieve, on command. By this, I mean picking up any object - from pencils to cans, pennies (yes, pennies) to dollar bills. The take-and-hold is probably among the hardest things to teach a dog, even natural retrievers, because it's not something that's totally natural to them. Shaping behaviors they offer naturally (like a sit, or a belly-up!) is easier.

I will never forget an old dog master I worked with when I was younger - he dared an entire class to teach their dogs to take and hold a dumbell (as for competitive obedience) through all their obedience routines... and he said that he would be able to teach his german shepherd pup (about 10 months old) to ride a tricycle faster than it would take us to teach a 100% reliable take/hold. He was right ;)

[Elenfair]

Ack - that first paragraph should read that the HARDEST thing to teach a dog is how to think!

[Athena]

They're also harder to train to be consistently obedient.


Yes, I think I've figured this out on my own. ;)

I train entirely using operant conditioning - producing thinking dogs who come up with things to try. It's slow to start, but once they figure out how it works, you have dogs who are willing to try all sorts of things to see if they'll get rewarded. It's behavior shaping, basically, and certainly at the core of many "tricks' we turn into "tasks" for service dogs.

Operant conditioning sounds cool, and I don't know anything about it. Can you recommend any books on it? And does it work on husbands too?

[Improv Geek]

I don't have a dog yet, but I want one in the next few years as life allows. Do you recommend for the average person to try and train their own dog or to take them to professionals?

And what's your favorite breed of dog?

[Elenfair]

Operant conditioning sounds cool, and I don't know anything about it. Can you recommend any books on it? And does it work on husbands too?

Clicking With Your Dog: Step-By-Step in Pictures (Karen Pryor Clicker Books) by Peggy Tillman

and

Don't Shoot the Dog! : The New Art of Teaching and Training by Karen Pryor

Both available through Amazon and other fine book sellers :) The concept of operant conditioning works with children and adults, too. One of the major premises is that dogs (and people) offer behaviors and continue to present these behaviors if it works for them (i.e. if they get something out of it). Everything hinges on positive reinforcement.

[Elenfair]

I don't have a dog yet, but I want one in the next few years as life allows. Do you recommend for the average person to try and train their own dog or to take them to professionals?

And what's your favorite breed of dog?

I think everyone should take at least a basic obedience class - just to get the hang of how to train a dog. Truth is, most of "dog training" involves training the handler/owner more than the dog, especially for all the basics. Even pro trainers tend to take classes, and the reasons behind that are many: to socialize their dog, to let their dog work around other dogs (major distraction right there!), and most importantly, to have the input from a fellow trainer who looks at the handler and the dog and can spot handling mistakes better than you can if you're the one holding the leash.

As for my favorite breed, I'm very fond of the Australian Shepherd, the Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever, and the good ol' Golden Retriever. The first two don't necessarily make the greatest first dog for a new owner. Goldens, though, are fairly easy to train, and usually an easy first dog. They're hell as puppies (but then, almost all puppies are), but they're wonderful companions and only aim to please...

[Beadalin]

Does operant conditioning work on adult dogs? That sounds like the direction I'd like to go with my black lab mix, who is about 2 1/2. She's bright, friendly and aims to please, but I haven't tried to teach her anything beyond the tricks she already knew when I adopted her a little over a year ago. She's good, but I think we'd both benefit from working together on broadening her horizons.

[NurseCarmen]

Since I come from a marketing background, I must insist. Pictures, darlin', pictures.

:D

[Paranoid Randroid]

I had a job for a few months in which one of my superiors was blind. He has a very sweet - and quite old - German Shepherd guide dog. (To be perfectly honest he's a bit of a jerk, but his dog kicks ass.)

But he has a desk job in an IT environment, and his dog spends *hours* every day just lying there, her owner's foot on her leash. I often wondered: Is that harmful to the dog's mood in any way? Can the ability to do nothing for hours at a time without caring be trained into a dog, or is it something that a dog just *has*?

[Paranoid Randroid]

Oh, yes: Is there a recommended retirement age for service dogs? The shepherd I mention above was over ten years old, it was my understanding; that seems very old to me.

[Phlosphr]

Our Rhodesian Ridgeback is very cerebral...Ok downright arrogant. How do we train this out of him? He doesn't listen to anyone but my wife or myself...Ever! Occasionally he will listen to another male if he is a big guy...but otherwise he's a dud when it comes to paying attention to others.
Granted this behaviour has it's uses, but it also has it's major set-backs as well.

[garygnu]

I work retail, and try to greet the dogs that visit. How appropriate is this with a guide dog or a guide dog in training?

[Elenfair]

Beadlin: Crossing a dog over from good ol' training methods to OC is doable, certainly! I know quite a few shelter dogs who've come a long way after making the switch. Give it a shot!

Paranoid Randroid: The dogs we select for this kind of work tend to be pretty good about chillin' out for hours at a time. Remember that an adult dog sleeps a hell of a lot during the day. In many ways it's nicer for them to be able to do so at their master's feet than home alone. As for retirement, it really depends on the dog. Some retire early after developing arthritis issues... others work until they are 11 or 12... on average, though, working dogs seem to have a career that spans about 8-9 years (so 10-11 years of age).

Phlosphr: Congrats, you got yourself a ridgeback ;) Some dogs, and some breeds, are just like that. There are ways you can turn strangers/friends into great attractions for your dog - usually that involves turning those people into absolute hot dog dispensers. You can also train your dog to "go to" someone on command (again, the hot dog dispenser method works great)... You can start just by making strangers/friends interesting to him (i.e. they are the source of treats!) and then move on to making them interesting AND requiring him to perform a task - a basic command - before they give him a snack.

Garygnu: The best advice I have here is to tell you to always greet the handler first. Talk to *them* first, ask about the dog if you want. Some dogs are easy to distract, and they should concentrate on their job. The best thing to do is to ignore the working dog, unless the handler tells you you can say hello. Some trainers will encourage you to pet a puppy in training because it's still heavily socializing. Most guide dogs are trained to ignore strangers who talk to them while they're busy being on the job. Some, though, still are drawn to people who make a fuss at them, and this can put their handler in harm's way. So - rule of thumb - ignore the working dog, talk to the handler first, ask questions (most are happy to answer them!), and always ask for permission before interacting with the dog itself.

[Zsofia]

I have an old dog (almost 13, a Westie) and I'd like to be more physically active and take him on walks. (He has the run of the back yard and gets plenty of exercise on his own, but he likes to smell new things and I can't make it to the gym as often as I'd like.) The problem is, he pulls and pulls and pulls on the leash until he chokes and snorts and get something all stuck up in his nose, and then he does it again! Plus, he can't just walk, he has to pee on everything.

I've gotten him a harness to use instead of the collar for walks, but it's hard to get him into it. (He doesn't like his feet to be touched, and he is a little grumpy in his old age.) Is the harness the best way to go here? How do I train him to help me put it on? And for pity's sake, can he be trained not to stop every three seconds to lift his leg? I'm trying to lose a fat roll here! I know that's not the sort of training problem you usually deal with, but any advice would be appreciated.

Also, is he ever going to do my laundry for me?

[Elenfair]

Is the harness the best way to go here? How do I train him to help me put it on? And for pity's sake, can he be trained not to stop every three seconds to lift his leg? I'm trying to lose a fat roll here! I know that's not the sort of training problem you usually deal with, but any advice would be appreciated.

Also, is he ever going to do my laundry for me?

He's an old dog, and he's set in his ways. If he's a typical terrier, he must like food... if he does, use this to your advantage. You can certainly use the harness. Lure him with some grub for handling his legs, and try to work as fast as you can (or have a helper). If you think he'd do better with it, you can also try a head halter. They work much like a horse halter in that you end up controlling where the head goes. Really useful when you want to make their heads come up (stop sniffing, darn it!) and they can't really pull from their noses!

The key to making him stop sniffing/pulling and actually have him HEELING so you can walk is to make YOU more interesting than the rest of stuff out there. If he's food motivated, go about it that route. Show him the GOOD STUFF (hot dog bits, cheese, good high-value treats) and hold it up against your chest, start walking. He will quickly learn to look up at you while you walk. Praise him (if you clicker train, I'd say click, treat). Reward him for doing exactly what you want him to - heeling, looking up at you, not pulling, etc. At first, this will take time... but in the long run, it's well worth it. You can also teach him the "look at me!" command so you can get his attention back when he's busy sniffing or thinking about marking everything along the way. Again, he'll initially only do it if YOU are more interesting that "IT". ;) It's tougher with an old dog that's set in its ways, but if you keep sessions initially short and fun, he'll catch on in no time.

Principle of Operant Conditioning: They engage in behaviors because they get something out of it.

So your boy gets something out of the pulling, marking, and being a yutz while you try to walk. The idea here is to change the equation, make it WAY more valuable for him to pay attention to YOU, heel properly and enjoy the walk... :) Find his currency and go with it.

I have two VERY food motivated dogs. One is not, and is toy motivated. I can make him do ANYTHING for his rolled leather tug toy. ;)

[Paranoid Randroid]

Paranoid Randroid: The dogs we select for this kind of work tend to be pretty good about chillin' out for hours at a time. Remember that an adult dog sleeps a hell of a lot during the day.

Thanks! That puts me at ease a bit. For some reason or another that's always bothered me some.

Another question: I've seen what looks very much like seeing-eye dogs skipping one bus as it passes, only to encourage the owner to stop a second bus. Can a dog recognize the sign on a bus (by color or some other means), or was this an instance of me reading too much into what I saw?

Also: have you ever dealt with a dog that's frightened of the clicker used in clicker training? My dog - a half-breed black lab/chow - well ... she whimpers and shivers when she hears the thing. She's also scared of thunder and lightening. Would it be cruel and unusual punishment for me to try to desensitize her to the clicker?

[Scarlett67]

I'm not training anyone right now as I'm working with a service dog of my own
Am I interpreting this correctly: you have been a service animal trainer for some time (as we know), and now you use one yourself? (Feel free to respond at whatever level of detail you're most comfortable with, including "nunnayer beeswax.")

That would be quite a coinkydink.

[Elenfair]

Am I interpreting this correctly: you have been a service animal trainer for some time (as we know), and now you use one yourself? (Feel free to respond at whatever level of detail you're most comfortable with, including "nunnayer beeswax.")

That would be quite a coinkydink.

Life handed me a shitload of lemons last year. I decided to chuck them out the window and had my orange juice instead. Far sweeter anyway.

I've been a dog trainer for a long time, yep... and last year, I started having some serious problems with my spine. It'd been a problem on and off since teenagehood, but no one had really put their finger on the actual cause... until a very astute rheumatologist put two and two together, sent me for an MRI, and came back with a diagnosis - ankylosing spondylitis. And myofascial pain syndrome (just because, you know, why not make it more interesting?).

As I was kind of in shock over THAT, it was pointed out to me that I could probably do very well with a service dog to help *me* around - help me get up from chairs, help me up stairs... help me with my balance issues (related to a brain injury sustained a long time ago) and sensory integration issues.

Duh, said I. And just to make matters even MORE interesting, the young pup I was raising at that point in time was just at the age where he could start doing public access training and actual task training.

Sometimes life works in strange ways.

[Katriona]

I have an old dog (almost 13, a Westie) and I'd like to be more physically active and take him on walks. (He has the run of the back yard and gets plenty of exercise on his own, but he likes to smell new things and I can't make it to the gym as often as I'd like.) The problem is, he pulls and pulls and pulls on the leash until he chokes and snorts and get something all stuck up in his nose, and then he does it again! Plus, he can't just walk, he has to pee on everything.

I've gotten him a harness to use instead of the collar for walks, but it's hard to get him into it. (He doesn't like his feet to be touched, and he is a little grumpy in his old age.) Is the harness the best way to go here? How do I train him to help me put it on? And for pity's sake, can he be trained not to stop every three seconds to lift his leg? I'm trying to lose a fat roll here! I know that's not the sort of training problem you usually deal with, but any advice would be appreciated.

Also, is he ever going to do my laundry for me?

We had a lot of luck with the Gentle Leader on our leash-pulling/chokes-himself mutt. The way the vet described it was like reins for a horse - where you point the head, the body follows. The only thing I don't like about it is that the uninitiated often mistake it for a muzzle and assume he's a mean dog, but other than that, it's saved my arm from being pulled out of the socket!

[Elenfair]

Thanks! That puts me at ease a bit. For some reason or another that's always bothered me some.

Another question: I've seen what looks very much like seeing-eye dogs skipping one bus as it passes, only to encourage the owner to stop a second bus. Can a dog recognize the sign on a bus (by color or some other means), or was this an instance of me reading too much into what I saw?

Also: have you ever dealt with a dog that's frightened of the clicker used in clicker training? My dog - a half-breed black lab/chow - well ... she whimpers and shivers when she hears the thing. She's also scared of thunder and lightening. Would it be cruel and unusual punishment for me to try to desensitize her to the clicker?

Regarding the bus dog - you may or may not be reading too much into it. I trained a dog who was really great at recognizing drivers and would always line up appropriately for its handler. Another I knew would always stop and stand at the SAME spot every day, and the drivers who ran that route knew to pick up that particular handler and his dog! We have no real proof that dogs can work out number recognition (i.e. see and understand the numbers on the bus), but some do seem to have this... knack for recognizing the right bus, route, and driver!

I've seen dogs be scared stiff of clickers and the sound they make. There are some clickers that have different sounds to work with. You could also work with a glass juice bottle cap (you know, the ones that make a soft pop sound) for a while until she gets used to that.

But yes, you can totally desensitize her to the sound. Again, it's a question of association - she needs to associate the sound with something really REALLY great, and *you*, who she looks to for comfort and reassurance, have to be so EXCIIIIITED about it that it's the most wonderful thing EVAAAAR... ;)

One way to do it is to have an assistant with you - stand the person at the other end of the room, put the dog on leash, next to you. Make a happy fuss: "Oh boy! Oh boy this is so much fun! Isn't this FUN?" wind the dog up. Have the assistant click. The SECOND you hear the sound, shove (!) a high-value treat into your dog's mouth, and raise up the fuss: "Oh god! How exciting! Check this out!" Have the assistant click again. "Oh BOY! Treats! Good dog! Oh boy!" Click again, treat, "Isn't this the BEST? Are you excited? I'm excited!"

;) If the dog likes its food, you can also feed it dinner and stand away, click while she eats. She will associate the sound with something positive - food, high-value treats, you being really happy about it (and not scared!)

If she's so frightened of it as to be totally incapable of paying attention to the treat, move the assistant out of the room, click from afar. Be quick to reward when you hear the soft click, so she starts learning to listen for it, too.

Good luck!

[Elenfair]

We had a lot of luck with the Gentle Leader on our leash-pulling/chokes-himself mutt. The way the vet described it was like reins for a horse - where you point the head, the body follows. The only thing I don't like about it is that the uninitiated often mistake it for a muzzle and assume he's a mean dog, but other than that, it's saved my arm from being pulled out of the socket!

Gentle leaders are widely used as training equipment for service dogs! God I love those things. They certainly save arms, legs, and sockets! Even older dogs can adapt well to them, assuming you don't make a fuss of it, slip it on fast (with treats!) and head out to do something FAAAAR more interesting than worrying about having something over the schnozz.

And youre right, Katriona - some people I encounter also think it's a muzzle... even when the dog was PANTING its little hart out, mouth wide open, tongue hanging out!

It's also the most WONDERFUL tool to prevent what we call "crittering" - following squirrels, cats, field mice instead of paying close attention to the job in young service dogs in training! They run off on you, and POOF, they hit the end of the leash and end up with their nose pointed at you. Takes all the fun out of the whole thing. Aaaand once again, we're back to "They do it cuz it works... they stop doing it cuz it doesn't work anymore, and it's not worth it." ;)

[Lissa]

I need a service dog. I pass out without warning due to a heart condition. It happens rarely enough that I still go about my every day life as normal, but I've always been worried it will hit me while I'm driving, or in another dangerous situation. According to witnesses, before I faint, I exhibit symptoms a dog could be trained to notice.

I already have three dogs, so getting another one isn't really an option. I do, however, have a dog who would be perfect for the task. Not only is he super-well-behaved in public, but he's also tiny and portable. He's also extremely intelligent, and I can't imagine it would be difficult to train him in this one task.

I tried contacting local service dog training centers, but they (the ones who responded, that is) all said that they never worked with owners' dogs. One suggested I go to a regular dog trainer and use the clicker method to train him to alert on seeing my symptoms.

I suppose this could be easily accpmplished, but the problem with this is that I don't know if businesses would recognize him as a "real" service dog if I did that. (And I've passed out in enough stores and resturants to where I would definitly want to take him with me.)

Any suggestions?

[Zsofia]

Wow, I'd never heard of those head halters! That would be so much easier to get him into. When I get down on the floor to get him into the regular harness he rolls over for belly scritchings. Which would be fine if I'd already gotten it onto him and were trying to fix it, but grr! I'll definately have to check that out.

A muzzle wouldn't hurt, either. He's getting very grumpy in his old age. :)

[DeadlyAccurate]

How are "seeing-eye dogs" trained to avoid running their owners into oncoming traffic, specifically at walk/don't walk signs? I've seen dogs smart enough to look both ways before crossing the street, but how do they know to walk at a crosswalk at the proper time?

[Elenfair]

Any suggestions?

This is a hard one, to be honest. Owner-trained dogs are always a gamble. While a dog may be perfectly well behaved and a great pet, it may not have what it takes to take on the stress of being a public access service dog.

What you're talking about doing is training your small dog to do medical alert work. This IS doable, but it's hard to train. You need a helper who can recognize the symptoms and teach the dog to respond to the "aura", as it were, before it happens. Truth is, this is an alert that is impossible to train - either the dog has it, or it doesn't. This is what makes the difference between an alert dog (like a dog who can sense seizures before they happen) and a response dog (who sees the symptoms come on, like you do, and will retrieve medication, get help, or stand guard, or help guide you to a safe place).

It's hard to train a response dog that is very small. It's also hard to teach an older dog to do all this work, and do it well, especially if there are other dogs in the house. Most schools would require you to have no other dogs, as it often interferes with a dog's ability to do its job.

The thing about service dogs is that your condition has to qualify as a disability, and the need for the dog has to be 24/7. It has to be task trained (i.e. performs specific TASKS you can't perform yourself - with medical alert, usually they are tasks that are performed during a crisis).

There are self-training groups out there, if you know where to look for them. There are a couple of yahoo groups that cover OC training for helping dogs! Look them up! It IS doable. The thing about self training is that you have to ask yourself if it's worth the 2 years of training time, and the possible heartbreak that it just doesn't work out in the end...

[Elenfair]

How are "seeing-eye dogs" trained to avoid running their owners into oncoming traffic, specifically at walk/don't walk signs? I've seen dogs smart enough to look both ways before crossing the street, but how do they know to walk at a crosswalk at the proper time?

Many seeing-eye-dog schools have mock city streets on their training grounds where dogs are introduced to lights and walk/don't walk symbols. Some schools do teach the dogs to look up and recognize walk/don't walk symbols, but not all are able to catch on. To be honest, most of them pay attention to traffic flow. They know how to recognize crosswalks, sidewalks (they always slow for a change in surface), and will know where to cross a street... then they'll pause, watch traffic, and choose to cross when the traffic has stopped and traffic heading in the same direction has started to move.

It's one of those things they learn almost by osmosis - repetition, daily, of the same routine - they learn to pay attention to the cues. Also helpful, nowadays, are the crossing signals that are accompanied by sound. A number of dogs pick up on that sound-signal, as does their handler!

[Elenfair]

Wow, I'd never heard of those head halters! That would be so much easier to get him into. When I get down on the floor to get him into the regular harness he rolls over for belly scritchings. Which would be fine if I'd already gotten it onto him and were trying to fix it, but grr! I'll definately have to check that out.

A muzzle wouldn't hurt, either. He's getting very grumpy in his old age. :)

Gentle Leaders are great, though some dogs have a hard time adjusting to them at first. But if you keep it fun and exciting and he gets to do something he likes (walkiiiiiies!) then he should put up with the insult. If you chose to get one, get one with a "snoot loop" - it helps keep the thing on. :)

[Athena]

Why are small dogs harder to train?

[Elenfair]

Why are small dogs harder to train?

Honestly, it depends on the breed. Most small dogs (terriers, toys) just don't have the drive for work - they don't have the work ethic, and don't have the stamina and that undying will to please that, say, retrievers have. SOME little dogs have done VERY well in service work - one handler I know uses a papillon and it works great.. but in her house she also has 3 others who she had to pull from training because they were not working out.

Small dogs are also at greater risk in public - they're small and cuddly and people want to pet them, pick them up... or worse, people don't see them and they get stepped on. It's hard enough not to get your golden's paws and tail run over by carts in the grocery store... can you imagine a small breed? You also end up facing more questions about the legitimacy of the working dog if it's of a small size.

Remember that a service dog is meant to be a piece of medical equipment (in an odd sort of way). The dog shouldn't be carried, even if it's small. It needs to heel, stay by you, and all that fun stuff. It also needs to be quiet in public, and perfectly obedient. Otherwise, it can't do its job.

Small dogs can be fun and "easy" to train to be awesome pets, trick dogs, agility dogs... all that fun stuff. Working dogs tend to have a different kind of temperament - one that sets them apart from others.

[Carol the Impaler]

How do you become a trainer? Can you list a range on how much a job like this earns?

[Billdo]

I don't have any particular questions, but just wanted to mention an old thread of yours that's one of my favorites in the whole history of the SDMB: Argh, die you evil gerbil-felching idiot! (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=43103).

It's the story of when you were training a working dog and bringing it into a shopping mall. As you did a woman and her son went absolutely bugfuck on the dog, who quietly sat and took it. The punchline, the thing that made it great, is that when the woman called the cops, they fined her $3,000 for interfering with a working dog.

[kaiwik]

I empathise with your health issues, I have AS and a bunch of autoimmune stuff which affects my life, and if I hadn't gotten involved with my breed of choice just before it all got bad and the dx's came, I would have an interest in a service dog. As it is, I have my little fluff butts, and they keep me very happy, truly they are my companions. I researched breeds and am happy with the choice I made.

Being "in dogs" I have a lot of people come to me for advice, which is great, when they take it. At the moment my daughter's mother-in-law is driving me nuts, and maybe you can help me steer her in the right direction. I'll try to keep this service dog oriented, but there are some home breeding issues involved.

My son-in-law (her son) developed a seizure disorder last August. It's a congenital enlarged vessel in his left frontal lobe. He is on medication which is controlling the seizures, although he is not dealing well mentally/emotionally to having a disability.

His mother has two Shetland sheepdogs. The male is a sweet doofus, large, and she did have him neutered. She has a nice pet bitch, who she is determined to breed because she wants just one litter, and to keep just one puppy from this litter. (I know.) She also wants to retain one of the puppies and have it trained as a service /seizure detector dog for her son. (Again, I know.)

This in addition to the Pomeranian they have from me, along with Zoey, the psycho Miniature Pinscher, and three cats.

Mostly what I am asking for is help in directing her to information which may convince her this is a bad idea all around, as I have been able to only convince her to at least have her hips OFA'd and she goes up to be CERF'd later this month, and to insist on any potential stud having those medical certifications as well, along with a clean test for brucillosis, as well as a promise to have her bitch spayed after "just one litter". She is a well intentioned soul, but this is just not a good idea in so many ways.

Also, I am not hearing from you anything which makes me think a sheltie would be a breed to even consider trying to train as a service dog, what are your thoughts on the breed for service work? Again, any direction to point her to for a better understanding in what is available for her son?

Thanks for opening the thread.

[Guinastasia]

Question-what is an Australian shepherd?

What about adopting a retired guide dog as a pet-do they make better pets in general?

[GKW]

Training related but not about service dogs. I recently got a 2 yr old Amstaff from a rescue agency. His foster mom told me that one of the best ways to train him from jumping up on people or trying to take their shoes off is to say, “ Unh Uh” and squirt him with water from a spray bottle. Do you think that this is just as effective as training him to ‘sit and stay’ with a clicker? Or is there another training option that you would advise to eliminate the behavior?

She also suggested this dog might be a good candidate for CGC testing. Is there an advantage to passing this test, like not having your homeowners insurance cancelled? Or being allowed to bring your dog into a country that normally bans them? Sorry for the hijack but I really respect your advice about training dogs and wanted to take advantage of your checking back.

Even more off topic - ever seen the Dog Whisperer? I think they must do a lot of editing. I can’t believe how quickly he gets the dogs to behave. It almost seems like his answer for every problem is “Walk the dog!” Thanks for reading & hopefully responding.

[Guinastasia]

Actually, that makes sense-when our dog doesn't go for her daily walk, we notice she tends to act all hyper and gets into trouble. The walk keeps her from getting bored and tires her out.

[Stinkum]

I don't have any questions for you, Elenfair but I did want to thank you for training service dogs. I knew a woman whose daughter was blind and she had a Leader Dog. Because of the dog, she was able to get to and from a job on her own, go places and do things independently, and live the life she wanted. Service dogs can change people's lives for the better.

You're good people.

[StGermain]

Elenfair - Why do you rarely see dobermans as service dogs? Wonderfully trainable, very people-oriented (especially their person), a good size. And for someone who is blind or has issues holding brushes, etc., very little coat care.

I presently have a dobe, a standard poodle and an alaskan malamute, all rescues. My poodle is probably the sweetest dog I've ever had. I had a GSD who was sweet and loving, but terribly goal-oriented. The dog learned that if he was persistant and worked hard he could unlock the windows, open them up and get out of the house. He never went off the block, but if I wasn't home, he wanted to find someone who was. I tried him on tranqualizers, but they made his personality go away, so I just learned to live with the damage to the mini-blinds. Mike died of age-related complications last year. It's amazing how much you can love a dog that causes so many problems. I've had dobermans for the last 20 years or so. Each dog has been loving, smart and gentle. Ideal dogs, IMHO.

StG

[SurrenderDorothy]

What happens to puppies who start out training to be service dogs but don't cut it? There's a test they have to take, right? do they get a second chance if they fail the first test?


do they have times when they're "on duty" and times when they're "off?" like if I had a friend with a service dog, I wouldn't play with the dog in the grocery store, but, in general (obviously, it's up to the owner and it depends on the dog) could I play tug-of-war with the dog once we got home? could my friend?

One from my mom: is it possible to train a five-year-old dog? (I say it is, but I'm just a kid. You're the expert.)

what kinds of things does the owner do to continue training? For example, do dogs learn to perform tasks related to the owner's job? If so, does the owner teach them these things, or does the dog just pick it up with the operant conditioning?

How much does a service dog cost? Does insurance cover it? Do you get paid to train them (or reimbursed in any way for the expense of keeping them?)

Do you ever get to see the puppy again once it's been placed with an owner? Do you have contact with the owners?

Do they go through normal puppy stages when they're with you? pooping in the house, chewing up your furniture, getting into the trash, etc? Or is it less than most puppies?

I think what you're doing is really cool and it's something I've always thought I'd do once I'm old enough. But, like others, I'd hate the goodbyes and I don't know how well I'd handle always having a puppy in my house.

[BluePitbull]

I hear that in Australia, they were crossing Labrador Retrievers and Poodles to get a hypoallergenic guide dog, what do you think of this?

Also any rare breeds that were used successfully in the Guide dog program?

[BluePitbull]

As for my favorite breed, I'm very fond of the Australian Shepherd, the Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever, and the good ol' Golden Retriever. The first two don't necessarily make the greatest first dog for a new owner. Goldens, though, are fairly easy to train, and usually an easy first dog. They're hell as puppies (but then, almost all puppies are), but they're wonderful companions and only aim to please...


Do you get potential guide dog puppies from a special breeder? Or is it from dogs of working/show lines?

And I wish I could own a Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever or an Australian Shepherd.

[Voyager]

Many seeing-eye-dog schools have mock city streets on their training grounds where dogs are introduced to lights and walk/don't walk symbols. Some schools do teach the dogs to look up and recognize walk/don't walk symbols, but not all are able to catch on. To be honest, most of them pay attention to traffic flow. They know how to recognize crosswalks, sidewalks (they always slow for a change in surface), and will know where to cross a street... then they'll pause, watch traffic, and choose to cross when the traffic has stopped and traffic heading in the same direction has started to move.

It's one of those things they learn almost by osmosis - repetition, daily, of the same routine - they learn to pay attention to the cues. Also helpful, nowadays, are the crossing signals that are accompanied by sound. A number of dogs pick up on that sound-signal, as does their handler!
This is one of the hardest parts of training, in my understanding. Guides must obey their partners - except when it will lead into danger.


What do you use as a postive reward? We've raised four dogs for Guide Dogs for the Blind in San Rafael, California. They do not use treats, but only words and pats. It's worked fine so far. We've raised two goldens and two labs.

The golden we just sent back is on breeder watch!

[QuarkChild]

I hear that in Australia, they were crossing Labrador Retrievers and Poodles to get a hypoallergenic guide dog, what do you think of this?

Also any rare breeds that were used successfully in the Guide dog program?
Guide Dogs of America (based in California) occasionally uses poodles, for hypoallergenic reasons. I've never actually seen a guide poodle at work, though.

[QuarkChild]

Guide Dogs of America (based in California)
Oops, I meant what Voyager said: "Guide Dogs for the Blind." Sorry.

I'm raising a puppy for them right now. He's 9 weeks old and doing great so far.

I can answer one of SurrenderDorothy's questions:
There is a "final exam" for dogs in guide dog college, but they can be dropped from the program before that if they are determined to be unsuitable for guide work due to medical or temperamental issues. Dogs that are dropped from the program can be placed with families as pets or, depending on the reason they were dropped, trained for other work.

[SurrenderDorothy]

I'd like to clarify one of my questions...

how much does a service dog cost for the owner, and does insurance cover it?

And I read your other thread, so the "do you get paid" has been answered (and I don't mean to be rude in asking that... just wondered if it was something I'd ever be able to afford to do. I woke up the morning after I wrote that and thought, "did I seriously ask someone how much they get paid? what was I thinking?")

[Lissa]

Do you get potential guide dog puppies from a special breeder? Or is it from dogs of working/show lines?

My husband works in a prison. They have a program where puppies are resuced from the pound, and given to the inmates to get basic obedience training. The bright ones go on to a service dog training academy. The ones that don't make the cut, or don't complete the academy training are adopted out to the public.

It's a wonderful program which has had awesome results.

[jabiru]

What happens to puppies who start out training to be service dogs but don't cut it? There's a test they have to take, right? do they get a second chance if they fail the first test?

Our dog, who has quite recently gone to his reward, was originally training to be a Guide Dog but failed* because he liked to poop when out on the street. He came to us as a Pets as Therapy dog (my husband is disabled).


* we prefer to think he didn't fail at all but wanted to live a life of rest and relaxation instead of having to work for his keep. :dubious:

[Elenfair]

Hi Guys - sorry to have let this thread disappear. lno's grandmother passed this weekend, and we were gone from Friday until today.

I'm going to chip away at answers right now!

E.

[Elenfair]

How do you become a trainer? Can you list a range on how much a job like this earns?

Most trainers kind of fall into the job by accident. Most started out with their own dogs, learned to train it, were asked by their own trainer to help teach classes... and voila! As far as the earnings go, it's mostly a labor of love, let me tell you. That said, people who teach dog obedience classes can make a very decent living.

Bildo - that was such an awesome moment!!

kaiwik - send her here:
http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/breeding/breeder2.html
http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/breeding/breeder3.html
... if she has any sense at all, she'll change her mind.

Guinastasia - the australian shepherd is a herding dog. Look up the breed club, lots of information on their site. Retired dogs DO make awesome pets. There is usually a waiting list for people wanting to adopt retired workers or dogs who are washed out of the training program.

GKW - You can certainly teach your dog a new response to people arriving. Some people use the kneeing technique (works well), or totally reshape the behavior. I know someone who has trained her dogs to make a MAD dash for their crates when the doorbell rings! They do so because they KNOW if they do, they will get a HUGE raw meaty bone and that's WAY better than getting ot say hi. ;) You could also do a sit/stay, open the door... drill drill drill, get volunteers... Make YOU the focus point... if you're more interesting to your dog than the people who arrive, then you're all set. You may want to turn yourself into a hotdog/liver dispenser a while ;) Regarding the CGC, it will not result in insurance changes or breed ban exemptions, unfortunately. That said, I recommend you do it! It's a lot of fun, and nice to know you have a dog who can be a good Canine Citizen.

Stinkum - Thank you!

StGermain - I love dobes. They have been used by some people as service dogs. They tend to do very well. No school has used them, however. Part of it is an image issue. Other reason is also related to "breed bans". Also, there has been concern about a type of dementia that affects *some* dobes as they get older.

SurrenderDorothy -

a)Dogs in training are constantly evaluated, and re-evaluated. It's kind of an ongoing process. They have to be safe, solid, and almost flawless in their obedience skills before certification. We do allow puppies some mistakes, obviously, but some get cut from programs for all sorts of reasons, most common of which are noise sensitivity and over-friendliness with strangers.

b)All service dogs have off duty times. Their handler releases them and they are more than welcome to play with anyone who wants to play with them! Usually, it's at home, and the vest, harness, or whatever they wear is removed. My dog knows the difference between work and play. He is a different dog on duty and off. All handlers play with their dogs - games of fetch, walks, and holidays, too. Dogs do need a break, sometimes. A lot of folks also have helpers/friends who may come in and take the dog out to the park, or to run and play, or for a run.

c) Yes. But what's the point? It would take 2 years (or so) for the dog to be fully trained. By then, it would already be a senior, and might have 2-3 years of service left before retirement... ;) Too much time and energy for little results.

d) Dogs are always learning, brushing up their skills, and bonding with their handler. During the teaching of the team phase (when people are partnered up with their dogs) we teach them what to do, how to train, and how to keep the training up to snuff. It's very important to reinforce the basics, on at least a weekly basis. My dog and I, for exaple, do a training session every day. He finds it a LOT of fun.

e) Most schools will place a dog with a disabled person for free. It costs them on average between 20 and 35 thousand dollars to train a dog. Yep, that's awfully expensive. Some schools will charge a small fee for equipment. Insurance does not cover costs. Once you are teamed up, yes, you are responsible for the care of the dog. That said, many vets offer discounts for working animals. Some vet colleges also offer services for free. Some pet food makers may also donate or support individual dog teams with grub each year.

f & g) Yes, sometime we do see dogs we've placed. It's always nice to hear updates and get pictures, too! As for puppies, well, they're puppies. They chew, they have accidents... but all in all, because of the amount of time we spend training, they seem to learn faster. Some of that is bred into them, but most of it is environment - it's the amount of time spent on training and learning each and every day. they usually get way more of that than family pets.

... continued in the next post!

[Elenfair]

BluePitbull - Yep. And the breed has picked up in popularity here, too. The problem with the Labradoodle is that there is NO WAY to guarantee type, especially the type of coat the puppy will inherit. It could have a poodle coat. It could have a Lab coat. It could have something in the middle. The philosophy of many programs is, at that point, why not just go with the standard poodle, if you want something almost hypoallergenic? Truth is, no breed of dog is 100% hypoallergenic at all. Now - I think labradoodles can be awful cute ;)
As for rare breed guide dogs - MIRA in Quebec trains Bernese Mountain Dogs as seeing eye dogs, and Labernese (Labrador/BMD crosses). That's about the rarest you will find. I have seen plenty of odd breeds doing service work. A lot of it depends on the trainer and the dog.

We do sometimes get puppies directly from breeders. We have pups from strong show lines and working lines - mostly these dogs have outstanding structure and conformation, making them really healthy workers! I love tollers and aussies :) They make wonderful companions and working dogs. They do get bored easily though so it's good to give them a job of some kind.

Voyager - I use treats with puppes, and pure praise (pats, praise) with grown dogs after the age of one. Seems to work well, all in all. Good on ya for working with that first stage of training... you guys do really hard work, and all of us (and especially the end users!) appreciate it SO MUCH. Congrats on the latest puppy! :)