Battlestar Galactica 2.19 - Spoilers Armed [Archive]

Improv Geek

03-03-2006, 01:40 PM

Spoiler policy: If it's been aired, or if it's purely speculative, no need for a spoiler box. If it's from a future episode as revealed in interviews, blogs, etc., or if it's speculation based on same, box it. And label the box as to the nature of the spoiler so we can decide for ourselves whether or not to dip into its sweet center. [credits to Cervaise whom I lifted this from last week's thread]

From tv blurbs:
Episode 2.19 - Lay down your Burdens

from tv.com: The Colonial fleet is stunned to receive a peace offering from Cylon representatives.

from scifi.com: The accidental discovery of a habitable planet sparks debate in the fleet: Colonize? Or keep seeking Earth?

After last week's episode I have to say I'm very excited about this one :)

Hypno-Toad

03-03-2006, 01:48 PM

So will the two "Heroes of the Cylon" have an effect on what happens to the Rag Tag Fugitive Fleet? And what will Xena do once she gets out of the recycle bin?

Cervaise

03-03-2006, 02:14 PM

As always, thread is padded with content-free OP so mouseover preview doesn't contain spoilers about Dualla and the Healer and a Dag named Space and how Kat reamed Helo's Mazoo.

Spoiler policy: If it's been aired, or if it's purely speculative, no need for a box. If it's from a (the?) future episode, as revealed in blogs and such, or if it's speculation based on same, then box it. And provide a label as to the general nature of the spoiler so readers can decide whether or not they want to spoil themselves.

No, I don't know what a Mazoo is, but I assume that if Helo had one, Kat would ream it.

I'll be in my bunk.

levdrakon

03-03-2006, 02:23 PM

Improv Geek

03-03-2006, 02:24 PM

We don't know, since they're not under constant attack we're led to believe that that is not the case, but we honestly don't really know the Cylon agenda...

Cervaise

03-03-2006, 02:30 PM

Tonight's episode begins the two-part finale for Season Two. Next week's closer will be ninety minutes long, if you hadn't heard.

Beware, there's a small cadre of GINO Jamokes trying to start an internet rumor that Sci-Fi has cancelled the show due to expense. Fear not: Season Three has been greenlighted and will premiere sometime this summer, probably in July if past scheduling is a guide. Like Season Two, it'll be twenty episodes in length.

Okay, re tonight, let's recap all the plot threads that will require attention:

Apollo has been promoted and is commanding Pegasus.

Which puts a crimp in his relationship with Petty Officer Dualla (2nd class).

Starbuck, new CAG for Galactica, has been itching to get back to Caprica to retrieve her hunka-hunka-cafe-explodin' Anders.

The reincarnations of Caprica Six and Galactica Boomer have bonded over the crushed skull of Lucy Lawless and vowed to change their society's direction for the better.

Momma Boomer thinks Doc Cottle killed her baby, that lousy chain-smoking dingo.

Baltar has stepped up as Roslin's political rival, and is running against her in the election for President.

The wildly religious Gemenon faction is displeased with Roslin and wants to play spoiler in said election.

Tom Zarek, recognizing the unlikelihood of his own further political ascendance, has attached himself to Baltar.

Gina-Six, lest we forget, has a nuke. Wait, let me clarify: a nuclear frakkin' warhead. There, that's better.

And in other news, General Billy Keikeya is still dead.

From the preview: A habitable planet has been found, one the Cylons are somehow unlikely to know about (this part of the preview was unclear), creating yet another division in the already deeply riven rag-tag fleet.

Mmm, Galacticky goodness.

Grossbottom

03-03-2006, 03:09 PM

I never watch the previews so the following week will be a surprise, but (as usual) I hope we see the nuggets & some fighting. I wonder what the season "gotcha" will be. So far they've popped Adama, and made Pegasus appear.

If they want to keep up the nail-biting endings, it'll have to be a good one. I doubt it will center on Poptart, since I suspect that Ron Moore is relieved to have found a good quiet place to rest an increasingly cheesy story thread.

Anyone have any guesses? Aliens? Baltar going apeshit? Six nuking Pegasus? Space Hippy versus Zarek in bare-knuckle boxing?

carnivorousplant

03-03-2006, 03:13 PM

bonded over the crushed skull of Lucy Lawless

You have such a way with words. :)

Smeghead

03-03-2006, 03:14 PM

The reincarnations of Caprica Six and Galactica Boomer have bonded over the crushed skull of Lucy Lawless and vowed to change their society's direction for the better.
To be fair, haven't we all done this at one point or another?

silenus

03-03-2006, 03:16 PM

Anyone have any guesses? Aliens? Baltar going apeshit? Six nuking Pegasus? Space Hippy versus Zarek in bare-knuckle boxing?

My guess would be that: The Pegasus will disappear. Gina + nuke = Boom! OTOH, having her and the nuke around would keep an edge going all next season. Wouldn't it be cool if Gina used the nuke to take out other Cylons who she disagrees with? Talk about a faction-fight!

But that is what we are expecting to happen, so Moore will throw us another sinker and laugh as we sit there with our jaws in our laps.

levdrakon

03-03-2006, 03:17 PM

So which thread (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=361375) are we using this week? Can the two threads be concatenated?

carnivorousplant

03-03-2006, 03:20 PM

I think they'll take up with the human resistance.
Starbuck will fight her way back to Caprica, only to discover that her Main Squeeze is messing with a toaster.

Merijeek

03-03-2006, 03:34 PM

From the preview: A habitable planet has been found, one the Cylons are somehow unlikely to know about (this part of the preview was unclear), creating yet another division in the already deeply riven rag-tag fleet.

How would they have any idea whether or not the Cylons know about it? I mean, they can jump farther and never get tired or impatient...

So they WILL find you one way or another.

-Joe

carnivorousplant

03-03-2006, 03:39 PM

So they WILL find you one way or another.

For dramatic purposes, I presume this to be true.
In reality of course, space is pretty darn big. I don't know if the volume the Colonists can jump to causes some practical limit or not.

MacTech

03-03-2006, 03:43 PM

For dramatic purposes, I presume this to be true.
In reality of course, space is pretty darn big. I don't know if the volume the Colonists can jump to causes some practical limit or not.
yeah, you just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is, i mean you may think it's a long way down the street to the chemist's but that's just *peanuts* to space, listen.....

;)

carnivorousplant

03-03-2006, 03:46 PM

What does it mean, "chemist's"?
:)

silenus

03-03-2006, 04:19 PM

What does it mean, "chemist's"?
:)

Drugstore, to our British cousins.

Improv Geek

03-03-2006, 04:23 PM

There is a more active thread opened here: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=361385

Merijeek

03-03-2006, 04:38 PM

For dramatic purposes, I presume this to be true.
In reality of course, space is pretty darn big. I don't know if the volume the Colonists can jump to causes some practical limit or not.

Sure, but if I've got state of the art and you've got beaten-to-hell junk...and my SOTA stuff was better than yours when it brand new...and you have to sleep and I don't have to sleep...and there's more of me than there are of you...

It's like the shambling zombies in the zombie movies. They don't get tired and even though they don't move that fast they always catch up. Except these can run faster than you.

-Joe, ZOMBIES!!! player for 2 years now

carnivorousplant

03-03-2006, 06:29 PM

Sure, but if I've got state of the art and you've got beaten-to-hell junk...and my SOTA stuff was better than yours when it brand new...and you have to sleep and I don't have to sleep...and there's more of me than there are of you...

But it you only have 10 billion guys and there are 10 gazillion billion stars to hide on, you'd never have time to check them all.
You could walk a light year in about 270 million years, but you'd run out of shoes before you got there.

levdrakon

03-03-2006, 06:40 PM

But it you only have 10 billion guys and there are 10 gazillion billion stars to hide on, you'd never have time to check them all.

Well, let's think this through. If there were say, a trillion stars in the galaxy, not counting nearby galaxies, and you had 10 billion Raiders each which can jump from pretty much anywhere to anywhere, how long would it take to scout-out every star system?

I'd be surprised they haven't already found Earth.

carnivorousplant

03-03-2006, 06:51 PM

I'd be surprised they haven't already found Earth.
Perhaps we are mostly harmless.

The Cylons were created in the colonies.
Perhaps they felt no urge to explore.
How near is Earth? Did the colonists jump to Caprica from Earth or use some other form of interstellar space travel that doesn't travel as far as quickly?

medstar

03-03-2006, 07:09 PM

Well, they've only got 36 hours before they become Fugitives of the Cylon, so whatever they're going to do, they better do it quick.

It would be almost too weird if they stole a ship and took off for the fleet. There'd be two Boomers & Six's running around. Plus, how do they know where the fleet is? Is its current position common knowledge among all Cylons?

My guess is that Caprica Six and Caprica Boomer will make sure their first order of business is to box Caprica Lucy Lawless before they find themselves in a spot of trouble.

MaddyStrut

03-03-2006, 07:22 PM

Maybe the new planet is surrounded by some sort of radiation field similar to the one around that station in the mini series.

Good news that there's a third season in the works. Bad news if I have to wait till July! My Friday's just won't be the same!

carnivorousplant

03-03-2006, 07:47 PM

Good point!
A download accident. A backup tape failure. :)

levdrakon

03-03-2006, 07:48 PM

How near is Earth? Did the colonists jump to Caprica from Earth or use some other form of interstellar space travel that doesn't travel as far as quickly?

I assume the colonists jumped from Kobol to Caprica. Others jumped from Kobol to Earth. Which is silly, but whatever.

The galaxy is only so big, vast as it is, the Cylons can spread out and survey the whole thing pretty easily, if they choose.

I'm not sure there's anywhere they can hide. Even a planet surrounded by mysterious anti-Cylon radiation could be bombed from space. Wherever they decide to start over, it's going to have to be defensible, not unfindable.

carnivorousplant

03-03-2006, 07:55 PM

The galaxy is only so big, vast as it is, the Cylons can spread out and survey the whole thing pretty easily, if they choose.

If you will change that to "the sphere of human exploration" I'll agree. Else there are billions and billions of places to hide. Even if you can jump, you still have to jump to billions and billions of stars...wait, I take it back. :)

levdrakon

03-03-2006, 07:59 PM

It would be almost too weird if they stole a ship and took off for the fleet.

Although come to think of it, Galactica Boomer and Cally have some seriously unfinished business. It'd be fun watching Cally squirm when the woman she killed in a jealous little tizzy over Tyrol, suddenly shows up.

fluiddruid

03-03-2006, 08:13 PM

I've merged the two BSG threads for this week.

carnivorousplant

03-03-2006, 08:42 PM

If you will change that to "the sphere of human exploration" I'll agree. Else there are billions and billions of places to hide. Even if you can jump, you still have to jump to billions and billions of stars...wait, I take it back. :)

That's the dumbest thing I ever heard.
Wait, I'm arguing with myself!
What happened? Did someone merge the space time continuim? Do I have a spell checker?

Rubystreak

03-03-2006, 11:01 PM

Although come to think of it, Galactica Boomer and Cally have some seriously unfinished business. It'd be fun watching Cally squirm when the woman she killed in a jealous little tizzy over Tyrol, suddenly shows up.

Cally has already had to deal with Caprica Baby Boomer, who was pregnant with Helo's child and who has been living on Galactica since Starbuck rescued them. This Cafe Bomb Boomer has the same mind as Galactica Boomer, whereas Caprica Baby Boomer remembers the same things but doesn't have the same mind, a fine distinction that was probably lost on Cally. Hell, it's kinda lost on me too.

Do we even know how badly Cally was hurt by the freaked-out Chief? That was a rough scene.

Will Starbuck get to be with Anders, or is it inevitable that he has to die, because couples in love aren't allowed to last on dramatic TV shows? What would Starbuck be like if she were actually to be happy for a while, anyway?

Is there any way that Baltar will become President? Seems from the previews that

Roslin will remember seeing Baltar with Number 6 on Caprica, so she might be able to blow him in as a Cylon collaborator, esp. if she can get Zarek to believe her. That should be fun.

Also seemed from the coming attractions that Boomer would find her baby again. I wonder if Doc Cottle will take pity on her and tell her the baby lived. He just might, that contrary old curmudgeon.

Critical1

03-03-2006, 11:13 PM

there was a preveiw talking about rescuing the caprica survivors...schwing!!!

looks interesting.

Scupper

03-04-2006, 01:09 AM

I think the preview for part two pretty clearly showed that Baltar wins the election.

He is shown telling Adama, "You have your orders," in a very haughty tone. True, he could be being ironic or something like that, but I don't think so.

My prediction: Baltar wins the election. As president, he learns about Baby Boomer's continued existence. His "plan" to colonize this new planet is not likely to get much further before the cylons show up to end the season big-time.

Also: Smart money's on Cally being a cylon. Ditto Dean Stockwell.

Rainbowthief

03-04-2006, 02:46 AM

Am I the only one who's severely disappointed by tonight's episode? I just started watching about six weeks ago after reading an article about the show. I got the miniseries, season one and all available season two episodes from iTunes and watched them on my iPod at work during my lunch break and at home while smoking outside at night. I went through all those episodes in under two weeks. Now, I know that the show couldn't possibly sustain the breakneck pace of the first season and a half, but a few episodes into the second half of this season (I think it began with episode 2.14), the show really started to go flat, IMHO, and I was afraid that it had already jumped the shark. After a very good episode 2.17 and an amazing episode 2.18, I started to feel better, but tonight's episode was just...meh. I guess my biggest fear is that the show is that Ron Moore and his writers are making everything up as they go along or that the success of the show will drive them to pad the story with garbage episodes just to stretch out the show's run. I hope they have a concrete plan to tell the whole story in four or five seasons and then bow out gracefully before the show turns into a mess like The X-Files.

Now that I'm done bitching, some things I'd like to see next week are some scenes of Apollo commanding Pegasus, more of Baltar (which I'm sure we'll get) and some more of Caprica Six (with her Baltar visions) and Sharon.

On a funny note, my wife and I are expecting our first child, a boy, next month and decided to name him Gaius--before we had even heard of the new BSG!

ddgryphon

03-04-2006, 08:11 AM

Best line:

"Maybe I'm a Cylon and I haven't seen you at any of the meetings"

I hope everytime they get a great guest star, they DON'T make them a cylon -- that would just be wrong. There's only supposed to be 12 meat models anyway.

12 Meat Models >Band Name<

Well, this ep is a lead up to next week. Felt pretty expositiony, but in a good way.

My personal theory
Baby Boom Boomer had a sub-program she was unaware of that led the lost ship to the habitable planet and the whole thing stinks of Cylon intervention

Other than that, nothing great this ep -- saving the big stuff for next week -- obviously.

Unauthorized Cinnamon

03-04-2006, 08:22 AM

I agree this was considerably weaker than the previous episode. But I think that was one of the best of the series, so it's a hard act to follow. This was still waaaay better than "Black Market" and "Scar."

During the scene between Apollo and Starbuck, I had to stop and think. Way back when, she was in love with his brother, and then contributed to his death. When Apollo got over hearing about that, they developed some sexual tension. Then they were on opposite sides of a coup, and she wound up meeting Anders, falling hard for him, but forced to leave him behind. When she returned, she & Apollo rushed into an embrace, then stopped short. Over the next months, he had an emotional crisis involving a "relationship" with a hooker, and she had an emotional crisis over leaving Anders behind, involving an almost booty call with Apollo. Soon after, she accidentally shot him. Now they're having a conversation about her risking her life to go retrieve Anders. If that ain't the definition of aaaaawkwaaard, I don't know what is.

Anyway, I certainly liked this episode well enough. I think the most interesting question is whether Sharon deliberately, or even subconsciously, sent Racetrack & Co. to the habitable planet, presumably fulfilling her prophecy of a dark time ahead.

I also thought it was interesting that Roslin's campaign manager said people vote their hopes rather than their fears, when it seems our last election was won largely through appeals to fear. However, I still think she's right about the effect of the planet - it's just I think it's more accurate to say that people vote for what they want to hear, whether it be "We can get back to a real life on terra firma," or "We have a simple solution that will prevent your children from being blown up at the mall."

I loved Dean Stockwell's priest. He and Doc Cottle should be drinking buddies. I actually think it would be interesting if Tyrol is a sleeper agent - it accentuates all the themes about identity and loyalty.

My husband brought up a good question: wouldn't Anders and the rebels recognize all twelve humanoid toaster models, or at least more than we know of now? It certainly seems that the traitor Sharon and Six would. So how are the writers going to get around that to maintain the tension over sleepers, without it being stupid?

athelas

03-04-2006, 08:30 AM

Oh, well, we *did* know about all 12 models before we came here, but there was this gigantic horde of space parasites that wiped our memories, and...

Doom Slinger

03-04-2006, 09:18 AM

My husband brought up a good question: wouldn't Anders and the rebels recognize all twelve humanoid toaster models, or at least more than we know of now? It certainly seems that the traitor Sharon and Six would. So how are the writers going to get around that to maintain the tension over sleepers, without it being stupid?

That could be a cool cliffhanger at the end of next week's episode -- after much shooting and drama and whatnot, the rescue party sent to Caprica finally makes it back to Galactica. The rescuers and the dozen or so survivors disembark from their Raptors, and there's a celebration in the hanger bay underway...

...until the rescuees catch a glimpse of Tyrol/Cally/Father Dean, and all of them freak the frack out simultaneously. Fade to black, roll credits, and the long wait to Season 3 begins.

Lumpy

03-04-2006, 11:23 AM

Gina-Six, lest we forget, has a nuke. Wait, let me clarify: a nuclear frakkin' warhead. There, that's better.You know, Baltar told Adama he just needed the plutonium from the nuke. Adama would have been an idiot not to have the nuke's trigger mechanism made totally non-functional before letting Baltar have it.

levdrakon

03-04-2006, 11:53 AM

You know, Baltar told Adama he just needed the plutonium from the nuke. Adama would have been an idiot not to have the nuke's trigger mechanism made totally non-functional before letting Baltar have it.

It would seem crazy not to remove the trigger, but Baltar is a genius scientist, right? I don't think it would make much difference to Baltar. The plutonium is all either he or Gina would need to make a functional bomb.

HelloKitty

03-04-2006, 01:46 PM

Yay, no flashbacks this week! (other than the "previously on BSG" that is...)

I liked this ep. I am totally drawn into thestory again after feeling a bit wayward
mid-season. I was so absorbed that when the "To Be Continued..." scrolled across the screen, I was shocked! The hour just flew by.

From the preview for next week I was not totally convinced that Baltar was telling Adama "You have your orders"...whomever he was speaking to had their back to the camera, leaving it a bit ambiguous. And besides, since when does Adama take orders from the president? Hasn't he circumvented the president's "orders" before?

So I think it might be Baltar bossing around some Cylons from the resistance...maybe he's telling them to use the nuke!

LOOOOOVED when Roslyn whispered to Baltar: "Go Frak Yourself!!!"

Anyone know if Morris Fink is still alive?? ;)

ddgryphon

03-04-2006, 01:46 PM

My guess is that Caprica Six and Caprica Boomer will make sure their first order of business is to box Caprica Lucy Lawless before they find themselves in a spot of trouble.

By luring her into a steamy hot tub threesome. . .

Oh, c'mon, you know you were thinking it.

Go to your bunk.

carnivorousplant

03-04-2006, 05:03 PM

You know, Baltar told Adama he just needed the plutonium from the nuke. Adama would have been an idiot not to have the nuke's trigger mechanism made totally non-functional before letting Baltar have it.
I think all you have to do is smack the pieces of plutonium together. As I recall it has to be do be done quickly and there are some details, but again, Balar shouldn't have any problem.

silenus

03-04-2006, 06:41 PM

I think all you have to do is smack the pieces of plutonium together. As I recall it has to be do be done quickly and there are some details, but again, Balar shouldn't have any problem.

There is a lot more to it than that. Plutonium makes it a fusion bomb, and those suckers are finicky. If it was Uranium235, I could whomp together a device in any decent machine shop. But what Baltar has is very different. If Adama just gave him the guts of a bomb, he hasn't got jack.

carnivorousplant

03-04-2006, 07:54 PM

There is a lot more to it than that.
My mistake. :)

Do you suppose that the glowing spine fetus commercials indicate that there will be more time spent on the half toaster child?

Critical1

03-04-2006, 09:48 PM

next week on BSG, OG Boomer and Caprica 6 join forces to save the rescue team and get the surviviors to the raptors or capture some raiders and get them home alive.

something about an offer of a peace treaty from the cylons? Baltar is frakking bonkers but Roslyn says " Baltar is working for/with the cylons" hes either winning the election or hes in a position to make a big decision of some kind.

from somewhere I got the impression that while inhabitable the planets green belt is to small to support 50k peeps indefinitly. I would laugh if the pres beats Baltar with science while hes trying to spank her with religon.

poor Mama Boomer, post partum/death of child depression.

John Mace

03-04-2006, 10:19 PM

I liked this episode, but I was confused about a few things:

What was the Cylon brain thing, and was Sharon tied to interveinously? If so, what for?

Why did they need to take Boomer on the away mission from the raptors. Assuming there is a contingent guarding the raptors, wouldn't it have made more sense to leave her with them?

Also, anyone else suspicious of how that one raptor "accidentally" jumped to a wonderful, Earth-like planet? What are the odds? Sounds like a bit of Toaster Trickery to me!

Dean Stockwell was great!!

The Long Road

03-04-2006, 10:28 PM

There is a lot more to it than that. Plutonium makes it a fusion bomb, and those suckers are finicky. If it was Uranium235, I could whomp together a device in any decent machine shop. But what Baltar has is very different. If Adama just gave him the guts of a bomb, he hasn't got jack.

Grind up the material and pump it through Galactica's ventilation making the ship uninhabitable. Not as sexy as a nuclear blast but effective in the end.

Phantom Dennis

03-04-2006, 10:30 PM

So what happened to the Rapter that jumped inside the mountain? Did the ship's molecules get mingled together with the rock molecules, instantly obliterating the ship and crew? Or did a Rapter-shaped chunk of granite get displaced by the ship, causing the crew to effectively be buried alive? In that case, was their momentum conserved after the jump? Because coming to an abrubt stop like that would probably kill them pretty quickly too, unless the Rapters are built with some kind of magic "inertial dampening" technology. Something about being buried alive in solid rock freaks me out.

carnivorousplant

03-04-2006, 10:59 PM

Or did a Rapter-shaped chunk of granite get displaced by the ship, causing the crew to effectively be buried alive?

What would happen to the volume of rock the raptor replaced? That's a lot of mass.

Phantom Dennis

03-05-2006, 04:44 AM

What would happen to the volume of rock the raptor replaced? That's a lot of mass.
Well, the FTL jump would have to create some sort of displacement effect -- that part is certain, or else the Rapter wouldn't be able to jump into a planet's atmosphere (what happens to the volume of air the ship suddenly occupies?).

carnivorousplant

03-05-2006, 08:15 AM

(what happens to the volume of air the ship suddenly occupies?).
I would guess it's pushed out of the way, like throwing a rock into a pond. But then it doesn't move into the atmosphere, or grow inside it like a balloon under water, it just sort of appears. I haven't a clue. :)

Smapti

03-05-2006, 08:49 AM

What would happen to the volume of rock the raptor replaced? That's a lot of mass.

IANAQP, but I always assumed the jump effect to be some sort of quantum exchange - i.e., the Raptor moves from Point A to Point B, and the Raptor-shaped chunk of granite is removed from Point B and takes its place at Point A. So we have a Raptor embedded in solid granite, a very confused chunk of granite floating around in the depths of space, and the laws of thermodynamics are left mostly intact.

RogueRacer

03-05-2006, 09:16 AM

Plutonium makes it a fusion bomb, and those suckers are finicky. Not really. Fat man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_Man) was a fission bomb made with plutonium. You are right about what we saw in Gina's room probably not being a gun style nuke. More info (http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Nwfaq/Nfaq8.html#nfaq8.1.4) for the curious. Of course, if you click these links chances are the guys in the black suits will pay you a visit...

Smeghead

03-05-2006, 01:13 PM

You know, it's almost as if the faster-than-light jump through hyperspace violates the laws of physics or something...

Cervaise

03-05-2006, 01:22 PM

If the spoiler I stumbled across about what happens next week is accurate, the complicated setup in this first half is absolutely necessary.

(And Dean Stockwell was, indeed, great. I had no idea he was scheduled to appear.)

carnivorousplant

03-05-2006, 01:23 PM

You know, it's almost as if the faster-than-light jump through hyperspace violates the laws of physics or something...

You think someone would tell them. I bet Starbuck drives without headlights, too!

Merijeek

03-05-2006, 03:30 PM

I've merged the two BSG threads for this week.

And that's why you're our fourteenth favorite moderator.

Scupper, I can TOTALLY see Stockwell as a Cylon. Which would be cool with me, because I love that guy, and the fact that he can keep showing up will be quite awesome.

Sharon seems to have truly switched sides, but I do have to wonder if her "dark times" is actually "dark times" for the Cylons rather than the humans. You know, like a civil war brewing back on Caprica?

Re: Solid Rock Raptor - it couldn't have fused with the rock...if so, its transponder wouldn't have still been sending out signals. Has to be a displacement effect...which I don't like. In such a case, what prevents people from using FTL ships as precision matter-destroyers? "Oh, look! A Raider-shaped hunk is missing from Galactica's reactor core. That can't be [BOOM]".
-Joe

carnivorousplant

03-05-2006, 04:21 PM

Do Cylons age? Each version of the same model are the same age. If they don't, that would mean Adama and the Stockwell character are human.

Merijeek

03-05-2006, 04:24 PM

Quick question regarding the Chief...

Why was he napping on the cold metal deck of the hangar bay? That seems like a big red flag...I'm just not sure what for.

-Joe

Smeghead

03-05-2006, 05:57 PM

Quick question regarding the Chief...

Why was he napping on the cold metal deck of the hangar bay? That seems like a big red flag...I'm just not sure what for.

-Joe
That's a good point. I noticed that, then forgot about it. Could it be similar to Sharon waking up in a locker room dripping wet?

carnivorousplant

03-05-2006, 06:59 PM

If Baltar used radioactive material from the bomb to buld the Cylon detector, is there enough material left in the bomb to achieve critical mass?

Rubystreak

03-05-2006, 07:01 PM

If Baltar used radioactive material from the bomb to buld the Cylon detector, is there enough material left in the bomb to achieve critical mass?

I personally thought he was lying his ass off about needing radioactive material for his Cylon detector, though I could be wrong about that.

Hypno-Toad

03-05-2006, 08:02 PM

(what happens to the volume of air the ship suddenly occupies?).

It's pushed aside with a loud "BAMF."

Ponder Stibbons

03-05-2006, 08:21 PM

IANAQP ...
You're not a Queer Proctologist? Uh, OK ...

Yea, yea, I know ... ;)

MaddyStrut

03-05-2006, 10:17 PM

Do Cylons age? Each version of the same model are the same age. If they don't, that would mean Adama and the Stockwell character are human.

I was wondering about that should Dean Stockwell turn out to be a cylon. It would kind of suck to be that model. All the others reincarnate in young, spry and you keep coming back as a 70 year old man with an aching back, insomnia, and prostate problems.

Critical1

03-05-2006, 11:32 PM

"Well maybe I'm a cylon and I havent seen you at any of the meetings"

I laughed out loud at that line, he was fraking Great. and I agree he and the Doc need to go get a beer or 3.

cerberus

03-05-2006, 11:58 PM

Actually, if all you have is PU239 or U235, then you've got a fission bomb. The idea is to break those big atoms down and release some energy. Early fission/fusion designs used a fission trigger to create enough heat and pressure to detonate a lithium deuteride fusion core.

simster

03-06-2006, 07:30 AM

Snickers

03-06-2006, 07:54 AM

Loved Dean Stockwell. Loved him. First time I saw him, I yelled "Al!"

Dunno - I'm divided on this episode. I'm one of those that looked up in surprise when it ended, because the time flew by, but I also didn't think it was all that. Except for Dean - he rocked.

Ponder Stibbons

03-06-2006, 09:20 AM

I don't think Dean Stockwell is a Cylon for a very simple reason. Being one of only 12 models is a recurring role in this series, so we'd be seeing Stockwell on a quasi regular basis from now on, like we're seeing Lucy Lawless. Of course, I could be wrong, but I'm just not seeing him taking on that kind of commitment.

I also really really doubt the chief is a Cylon. I think his self doubt and developing minor psychosis is very human and adds to his depth as a character. Having him turn out to be a Cylon would feel like a cheap out, and I'm fairly sure Ron won't do that to us.

Callie? Nah, just ... nah. Doesn't feel right.

Merijeek

03-06-2006, 11:11 AM

I also really really doubt the chief is a Cylon. I think his self doubt and developing minor psychosis is very human and adds to his depth as a character. Having him turn out to be a Cylon would feel like a cheap out, and I'm fairly sure Ron won't do that to us.

Callie? Nah, just ... nah. Doesn't feel right.

I doubt the Chief is, but I can see there being something miswired (hah!) in his head.

Still, there's something weird going on. He was sleeping on the metal deck of a hangar! If there'd been some tools sitting next to him or whatever because he was working...but there weren't.

I'm betting a Cylon we don't know about set him up - I'm talking drugging or whacking him in the head, planting him there, and then waiting for events to take their course.

Of course, events would take a more entertaining course if...Callie is a Cylon. Callie would be a new archetype we haven't seen before - specifically, the "adorable and vulnerable" archetype.

-Joe

MacTech

03-06-2006, 11:23 AM

I still have Cubits on Dee being a Toaster....

imagine the uproar within CIC on both the Galactica and the Pegasus if it's determined Lee Adama is frakking a Toaster.....

perfect strategy on the Cylons part as well, Boomer/Helo falling in love to prove that Meatbags and Humans are biologically compatible, Baltar/Gina/HeadSix being in love means the civvie government has also been infiltrated, and if Dee turns out to have the GSP, the command ranks of the Colonial Millitary have been compromised not once, but twice...

and if the "Rebel Alliance" of C-Boomer and C-Six back on Caprica can make humans realize that not *all* Toasters are bad, maybe there's hope for, if not outright peace, at least an end to hostilities....

simster

03-06-2006, 11:33 AM

nahh... Zarek's the toaster....

He's Old enough to have served in the first wars, and has always been 'somewhat' of a trouble maker.

He even wants to see Baltar in power...

Hell, he was even in the original series!

(In all truth, I still think Gida(?) is the toaster in fleet... he 'proved' baltar's innocence, he's able to compute 'outside the redline' FTL jumps, he has not yet been seen to have any serious external relationships, and the Cylon fleet has always been one jump behind/away)

Ponder Stibbons

03-06-2006, 11:45 AM

I don't think any more of the regulars will turn out to be toasters, but I'm not rock solid sure about it. Which is good, because these things shouldn't be overtly obvious.

Should another regular turn out to be a cylon, my first guess is Gaeta. We don't see THAT much of him, and he is almost reveres Balthar. He may well be influencing Balthy in subtle ways we aren't seeing just yet.

As for Dualla .... mmmmmaybe. I could see it, but I think plotwise that would play waaay to much into the "human-loves-Cylon" theme we've already seen a number of times.

Zarek? No way. I think the developing theme is that not all bad guys are Cylons, and not all Cylons are bad guys. Of course, Zarek isn't exactly a bad guy. He's just a human with very strong self-interests.

I'm betting a Cylon we don't know about set [the chief] up - I'm talking drugging or whacking him in the head, planting him there, and then waiting for events to take their course.
Yea, I bet you're right. That would explain a lot.

simster

03-06-2006, 12:02 PM

FTR, I do not think that Zarek is a toaster... bad humor attempt on my part... for the writers to make him a toaster woould be a bad move, IMHO.

What i wonder is what is more important to the story... is it more important to 'know' or to 'wonder' who the rest of the 12 are?

I liked the way xenabot was introduced... but I dont want them all introduced that way.

I liked the way Shelly and Gina were introduced, and the humor/seriousness of both stories, and the affects on baltar.

I like knowing there are multiple Sharon's around - in totally different functions.

But you have to wonder how important 'overall' knowing who the rest really is.

Rubystreak

03-06-2006, 12:24 PM

As for Dualla .... mmmmmaybe. I could see it, but I think plotwise that would play waaay to much into the "human-loves-Cylon" theme we've already seen a number of times.

Did anyone else think the affair between Dualla and Apollo was contrived? I felt like the writers knew that Billy was leaving the show and wanted to give it pathos and drama, so they had Dee go for Apollo and reject Billy right befor he died. I could see her liking Apollo, but not so much his reciprocation. I thought he had it for Starbuck and the transfer of his affections to Dee seemed all too quick... unless he's just lonely and felt bad after the thing with the prostitut and the big blow off from Starbuck?

It's not that Dee's not appealing, but she doesn't seem to be Apollo's type and I really didn't think he liked her back after she confronted him about what was going on with them... his response, "I don't know know what you want me to say!" was a classic "he's not into you" line.

What did you guys think?

mrklutz

03-06-2006, 12:33 PM

I still have Cubits on Dee being a Toaster....
A hundred quatloos on the newcomer!

Personally, I'll be surprised if we ever find out who all 12 human-form cylon models are. The tension created by wondering in any given person's case is just too good and too useful to remove from the story entirely. That does mean they'll have to do some fancy footwork with the Caprica resistance to keep that knowledge gap going.

We didn't see all 12 in the cafe -- do you suppose the cylons keep them segregated for security purposes, so that any human observer who might happen to appear on the scene only gets a partial picture? Seems far-fetched, but not impossible. I think it's more likely that the resistance will get wiped out completely before they can be rescued. They are pinned down by enemy fire, after all. Rescuing Anders would probably mean both that (a) the Colonials would gain critical intelligence on the cylons, and (b) Starbuck would be part of a (presumably) happy couple. Anders' shirt is looking redder by the moment.

As far as the regulars go, I'd put Dualla pretty low on the list of likely suspects. Unfortunately, I have nothing beyond a gut feel to back up that assertion. Cally seems more plausible, although like many here, I would hate that. It's much more satisfying to view her Jack Ruby imitation as genuine human reaction to an assault on someone she respects or even reveres than it would be if it were latent programming asserting itself. Gaeta seems the most likely of the bunch to me. He's young enough, there are plenty of gaps in what we know about him, and as others have pointed out, there are plot elements we've seen which would fit nicely with him being a cylon. Of course, none of those plot elements necessitate his being cylon, which is the beauty of it.

Scupper

03-06-2006, 03:12 PM

I would just like to reiterate: Cally is a toaster.

The Evidence For:

Cally is Young, as are most female toaster models (which makes me think the Cylon god does exist).

Cally has only been in the fleet a short time. She joined "to pay for dental school." (As stated in "Fragged.")

Cally is remarkably tough. She was shot in "Bastille Day" and yet was fit enough to survive a raptor crash and fight her way through the jungle for four straight episodes "Kobol's Last Gleaming, pt. 2" through "Fragged"--only 8 1/2 episodes later (probably only 2 months or so, ship-time). Compare this to Starbuck, who we know is tough, yet spent five of those same episodes nursing a leg injury! (Starbuck was injured in "You Can't Go Home Again" and her leg was still too damaged to fly a mission in "The Hand of God.")

Cally "lost her nerve" in "Fragged" just at the right moment for Baltar to have to kill Crashdown, something which HeadSix seemed very proud of him for doing.

Cally killed GalacticaBoomer mk I - before she could reveal any cylon info.

Cally is a member of the flight deck crew, and they never did find out who "accidentally" let the securing strap on a rack of missiles get frayed to the point of breaking (and killing 13 of Galactica's viper pilots) in "Act of Contrition."

And, finally, what is Chief Tyrol dreaming about when Cally wakes him up? He's afraid he's a Cylon and what does he do when he sees Cally, of all people? He beats the s--t out of her. Because she's a CYLON, and deep-down he knows it.

The evidence against:

Well, she's not smokin' hot, which seems to be a requirement for cylon female models, but she's cute enough to pass muster.

Merijeek

03-06-2006, 03:27 PM

The evidence against:

Well, she's not smokin' hot, which seems to be a requirement for cylon female models, but she's cute enough to pass muster.

They can't all be smokin' hot. Some of them have to be cute.

And in Callie's case she's a..."wook at me, I'm all sweet and vulnerable...pwease pwotect me..."

Makes me want to rent 'Dental School'!

-Joe, obscure joke

silenus

03-06-2006, 03:29 PM

Hmmmm.....Scupper, Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

:D

carnivorousplant

03-06-2006, 03:34 PM

pwease pwotect me..."

"...or I'll blow your spine out your back with a military sidearm." :)

carnivorousplant

03-06-2006, 03:37 PM

Cally "lost her nerve" in "Fragged" just at the right moment for Baltar to have to kill Crashdown, something which HeadSix seemed very proud of him for doing.

Were she a Cylon, that would have been a good time for "Gort, Klatu birada nicto."

:)

Merijeek

03-07-2006, 07:33 AM

"...or I'll blow your spine out your back with a military sidearm." :)

You have your sexual fantasies, I'll have mine.

-Joe

Corner Case

03-07-2006, 11:35 AM

Since the transponder was still active, the FTL jump either compressed the rock out of the way (unlikely) or displaced it back to the point of origin - a swap (better). So I vote for a swap. It is too difficult to use as a kamikaze method because the aim is not that precise.
After hearing the discussion, I agree that jumping to a habitable hidden planet seems too good to be true. I suspect that Homo-Cylonus are testing the humans. They attack, they infiltrate to listen in, they let a basestar be blown up, they are experimenting with "love", and maybe next episode they see what humans do when offer a "peace treaty". It all seems like the trials of Job somehow.
If Roslyn is going to play the "Baltar was seen conspiring with a Cylon"-card, then, I've been surprised since Roslyn's cancer was cured that Baltar hasn't played the "Roslyn was saved with Cylon-Blood"-card and so she's possessed!
I felt Dean Stockwell (love him!) was a Cylon, but that's too obvious. As too "he can't be a Cylon" because he's old - nonsense. Old people can be quite fit, and as a Cylon he can be made looking old but with the insides of a fit 20-something. However, everyone can't be a Cylon ... or can they? ... . But, try this one on for size ... ... what if Dean Stockwell is just a mental hallucination of Tyrol's. ... No I don't think they'd do it, but it's a cute thought.
After hearing the discussion, it is curious why Tyrol was lying on the deck. I'd assumed he was working to hard, fell asleep and had his dream. He could have had a Melba-moment and done some sabotage, but I really think he's just a good human with human problems and worries.
Dee's and Lee's romance seems contrived. (probably due to Billy's leaving and someone's weird sense of humor since their names rhyme)
Adama can't let people settle the planet beacuse the fleet would be losing too many craftsmen and people whose skills are vital to maintain the ships. This unpopular decision will spark a lot of tumoil and "dark times".
Go on, admit it, you missed my lists. :D

carnivorousplant

03-07-2006, 11:56 AM

you missed my lists.

Lists? :)

Ponder Stibbons

03-07-2006, 01:00 PM

Well Corner Case, I was feeling a bit listless ...

Merijeek

03-07-2006, 03:58 PM

Well Corner Case, I was feeling a bit listless ...

Me too.

And that causes me to ponder a question that's been bothering me lately: Why, when I see the name Ponder Stibbons do I think of Pork Chops?

-Joe

Corner Case

03-07-2006, 04:08 PM

levdrakon

03-07-2006, 04:24 PM

Oh, and the award for Best Dressed goes to Kara Thrace, who is the only person to not wear a helmet as all the little ships made their jumps. It would have ruined her hairdo and made her just win Miss Personality. ;)

Boomer didn't wear a helmut, did she? :p At least I noticed she wasn't wearing a helmut on Caprica. You know, you'd think they'd protect her more carefully. If she got killed on Caprica, she'd get resurrected on Caprica and at this point in the story, I don't think they want knowledge of everything that has happened back in the fleet getting back to the Cylons.

Oslo Ostragoth

03-07-2006, 07:24 PM

So what happened to the Rapter that jumped inside the mountain?
I watched the ep again, and it sounded to me like they flew into a mountain, not jumped into it. Anybody got a TV with excellent sound to clarify?

carnivorousplant

03-07-2006, 07:49 PM

I watched the ep again, and it sounded to me like they flew into a mountain, not jumped into it. Anybody got a TV with excellent sound to clarify?
Helo says, "They jumped inside the mountain."

athelas

03-07-2006, 09:30 PM

"They'll be jumping inside the mountain when they come..."

Ahem. Back to thread.

Oslo Ostragoth

03-07-2006, 11:22 PM

Helo says, "They jumped inside the mountain."
Damn. That speaks poorly of Starbuck's mission plan.

cerberus

03-08-2006, 12:21 AM

Doom Slinger

03-08-2006, 07:57 AM

After hearing the discussion, it is curious why Tyrol was lying on the deck. I'd assumed he was working to hard, fell asleep and had his dream. He could have had a Melba-moment and done some sabotage, but I really think he's just a good human with human problems and worries.

Wasn't Tyrol wearing just a t-shirt (okay, the fleet standard issue t-shirt/tank top combo) and boxer briefs as he was dozing on deck? What kind of work would he have been doing in his underwear?

Merijeek

03-08-2006, 08:09 AM

No, it speaks volumes of the envelope they're pushing with the use of the Cyclon jump tech in fine-tuning their jumps. Bear in mind that they usually don't jump into atmospheres like that. It seems to fall more on Baby Boomer than on Starbuck: the details of the jumping are on Baby Boomer.

In my opinion, they're doing well to have lost only the one Raptor in the Caprica! Endoatmospheric! Jumpy! Fun! Time!

Exactly. This isn't Star Trek where everything works perfectly and magically (except when something goes wrong and someone has to rewrite a subroutine to make something magical even more magical).

They jumped 2km above the surface of the planet. Someone was unlucky in that when there was a spinning planet involved in the mix their destination happened to be in a spot where a mountain was over 2km tall.

Really, the displacement makes the most sense...however they do it. After all, if you do a jump and your brain happens to co-locate with a grain of space-sand...that can't be fun.

-Joe

Ponder Stibbons

03-08-2006, 08:27 AM

Me too.

And that causes me to ponder a question that's been bothering me lately: Why, when I see the name Ponder Stibbons do I think of Pork Chops?

-Joe
Hmm. I did post something nice about Emeril a while back, and, as we all know, one of his catchphrases is "pork fat rules" and it's not too far a jump to go from that to pork chops ...

Or maybe you're just nuts. :p

Merijeek

03-08-2006, 09:02 AM

Hmm. I did post something nice about Emeril a while back, and, as we all know, one of his catchphrases is "pork fat rules" and it's not too far a jump to go from that to pork chops ...

Or maybe you're just nuts. :p

Most likely, since I've never watched Emeril.

Maybe Ponder Stibbons: Jek Porkins: Pork Chops: Pork Chop Express: Jack Burton: Tim Burton

You're Tim Burton, aren't you?!?!!?

-Joe, probably nuts

carnivorousplant

03-08-2006, 09:14 AM

Exactly. This isn't Star Trek where everything works perfectly and magically

Like in Enterprise when the guy transported with plant material in his body? :)

Cervaise

03-08-2006, 10:05 AM

Like in Enterprise when the guy transported with plant material in his body?Leave your kinky Mary Sue stories out of our Galactica thread!

;)

carnivorousplant

03-08-2006, 10:07 AM

Leave your kinky Mary Sue stories out of our Galactica thread!

;)

But...but...but them Mary Sue pulls the pieces out with her manicure set, and...

Merijeek

03-08-2006, 10:58 AM

Like in Enterprise when the guy transported with plant material in his body? :)

Oh, you mean like they do every time THEY HAVE FOOD IN THEIR STOMACH?

Let me guess...the whole episode was about all the strange effects it had on Crewman X and at the end they rerun him through the transporter (after changing some subroutines) and he's fixed.

Did I come close?

-Joe

carnivorousplant

03-08-2006, 11:49 AM

Oh, you mean like they do every time THEY HAVE FOOD IN THEIR STOMACH?

Let me guess...the whole episode was about all the strange effects it had on Crewman X and at the end they rerun him through the transporter (after changing some subroutines) and he's fixed.

Did I come close?

-Joe
Nope. It was just to show that it didn't always work.
Calm yourself. :)

levdrakon

03-08-2006, 01:13 PM

The FTL jump technology enables it to displace a limited amount of matter. Space dust is easy, atmosphere a little tougher, but doable. Solid rock is too much. But wisely, they put the transponders in the most fortified part of the ship (probably attached to the FTL engine itself, which during a jump, is the first thing to start displacing local space) which is mostly likely to be able to initially displace some solid rock, enabling it to continue broadcasting a signal.

Tyrol was probably in his boxers because he was in his bunk when he had another of the bad dreams, at which point he slept walked his way into the hangar area (which is where his dreams take place). Why do you all think he didn't remember beating Cally, and only realized what he'd done immediately afterwards?

See? It all makes sense. No need to rewrite some subroutines.

Merijeek

03-08-2006, 01:36 PM

carnivorousplant

03-08-2006, 02:16 PM

Anyways, I still think that Tyrol is being deliberately messed with.
Perhaps so. They sure spent a lot of time on it, so I presume it relates to later episodes.

Cervaise

03-08-2006, 02:28 PM

Tyrol was probably in his boxers because he was in his bunk when he had another of the bad dreams, at which point he slept walked his way into the hangar area (which is where his dreams take place).Alternatively, he was getting complaints from his rackmates about his groaning and twitching, so he shambled groggily off someplace where he could get some shuteye without disturbing anyone.

levdrakon

03-08-2006, 02:37 PM

Alternatively, he was getting complaints from his rackmates about his groaning and twitching, so he shambled groggily off someplace where he could get some shuteye without disturbing anyone.

Which would explain why Cally went looking for him (after beating up all his rackmates). Cally sure loves her some Tyrol, and probably knows his whereabouts every second of the day. And night.

Ponder Stibbons

03-08-2006, 02:42 PM

Which would explain why Cally went looking for him (after beating up all his rackmates). Cally sure loves her some Tyrol, and probably knows his whereabouts every second of the day. And night.
Mmmmm... Cally ...

I'm goin' back to Cally, to Cally, to Cally

Merijeek

03-10-2006, 10:57 AM

Cally the stalker, I love it.

Anyways, I've stopped in to add some notes based on the podcast. Anyone who doesn't want to read them...

DONT READ THEM! NO BITCHIN!

Okay, first of all, Racetrack's little trip to the new planet? Totally an accident. As Moore says, any conspiracy theories you hear are WRONG.

So, Sharon's not at fault on that one.

Dean Stockwell's priest will apparently have a BIG impact on tonight's episode - basically enough so that Moore didn't want to give his priest's backstory yet.

His name is "Caddle" from what I can tell. Pretty close to "Cottle".

Maybe they're brothers?

Funniest line of the podcast goes to Moore's wife: "You swear on these things?"

"Jumped inside the mountain" is kind of a throwback to "Trek" like a transporter accident. So, 100% answered, for any doubters out there.

Finally, regarding the second half of the finale. It's 90 minutes as most of us already knew. However, the interesting thing is that Moore's partne (Eick) and his wife did NOT like what Moore did with it. Moore describes it as "a big risk"...we'll see what that meant.

He says that this finale will make some HUGE changes to the direction of the show. We shall see.

-Joe

D_Odds

03-10-2006, 11:07 AM

Finally, regarding the second half of the finale. It's 90 minutes as most of us already knew. However, the interesting thing is that Moore's partne (Eick) and his wife did NOT like what Moore did with it. Moore describes it as "a big risk"...we'll see what that meant.

He says that this finale will make some HUGE changes to the direction of the show. We shall see.

-JoeNewsday's TV writer raved
By episode's end, humanity is essentially a critical patient in a M*A*S*H unit, and the Cylons don't care, or maybe they do. I'd say "Galactica" seems to be starting over, except each minute thus far has so richly informed the next. If the show's humans have no time to waste, neither does Moore. His every scene provokes not just adrenaline but thought. Why isn't everybody watching? (and if you find a spoiler in that, you're looking too hard

ElvisL1ves

03-10-2006, 11:23 AM

Dean Stockwell's priest will apparently have a BIG impact on tonight's episode - basically enough so that Moore didn't want to give his priest's backstory yet.

His name is "Caddle" from what I can tell. Pretty close to "Cottle".

Maybe they're brothers?IMDB says his role is "Brother Cavell".

I'm goin' back to Cally, to Cally, to CallyI don't think so.

Merijeek

03-10-2006, 12:00 PM

IMDB says his role is "Brother Cavell".

Blame Moore! Or blame his wife for not letting him chain smoke while doing the 'cast.

-Joe

levdrakon

03-10-2006, 12:25 PM

Okay, first of all, Racetrack's little trip to the new planet? Totally an accident. As Moore says, any conspiracy theories you hear are WRONG.

Now that's silly. Space is incredibly vast. If you screw up your jump coordinates, you should end up in the middle of nowhere, not in a solar system right next to a planet. What would be the odds of that?

Scupper

03-10-2006, 12:54 PM

Now that's silly. Space is incredibly vast. If you screw up your jump coordinates, you should end up in the middle of nowhere, not in a solar system right next to a planet. What would be the odds of that?

How do you know that FTL misjumps are not massively biased in favor of gravity wells?

How interesting would it be if they just appeared in the middle of nowhere and said "Oops, better go back to Galactica?"

With very few exceptions, Galactica is the closest thing to hard sci-fi in movie or television history. That's not saying much, but I applaud the efforts they do make. I'm willing to let them slide a bit if it keeps the plot interesting, which it does.

carnivorousplant

03-10-2006, 01:02 PM

If you screw up your jump coordinates, you should end up in the middle of nowhere

Very good point. Since there seems to be very little science involved, and there's more than one way to skin Scrodindinger's Cat, no matter how you spell it, I think we must give Moore a pretty big poetic license if I may mix my metaphors.

The gravity well idea ain't bad either, but your machinery would have to see it's effect over og knows what distance. Then they'd have Star Trek sensors and find all the planets they wanted.

Merijeek

03-10-2006, 01:23 PM

levdrakon

03-10-2006, 02:20 PM

How do you know that FTL misjumps are not massively biased in favor of gravity wells?

Because you enter coordinates, and you appear at those coordinates. What would massive gravity wells have to do with it? I don't see FTL travel as moving through space, and getting pulled off-course along the way. It's an instantaneous disappearing from point A and reappearing at point B. If you got point B wrong, so be it. But I don't see how you can get pulled off-course mid-trip, because I don't think there is a mid-trip. There's no sub-space or hyper-space to travel through. They're not traveling at super-duper velocities.

Scupper

03-10-2006, 03:52 PM

Because you enter coordinates, and you appear at those coordinates.

If it works properly, yes.

What would massive gravity wells have to do with it? I don't see FTL travel as moving through space, and getting pulled off-course along the way. It's an instantaneous disappearing from point A and reappearing at point B.

You may see it that way, but they don't actually spell it out in the show. In fact, they make a point of not spelling out the "science" in the show to avoid people critiquing their technology to death.

From BattlestarWiki (http://www.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Jump):

No specific information on the technology of an FTL drive has been given in the Mini-Series or regular series.

The only people who really know how they work, therefore, are the writers.

If you got point B wrong, so be it. But I don't see how you can get pulled off-course mid-trip, because I don't think there is a mid-trip. There's no sub-space or hyper-space to travel through.

I'm not suggesting you get pulled off-course mid-trip. I am saying you can't state with any certainty that the failure rate of jump technology of the BSG universe is not affected by gravity wells, when it very clearly is. Virtually every fear about making a jump has to do with hitting a planet or other obstacle.

They state in the show that, without proper calculations, you could jump right into a planet. If the presence of gravity wells had nothing to do with making jumps, the odds of that would be infinitesimal, but that is obviously not the case.

Since obviously you can misjump, and jumping into planets is a distinct possibility, and when Racetrack misjumps she ends up near a planet, what other explanation is there but that the colonial jump drives are extremely sensitive to the presence of gravity wells, particularly with regard to the consequences of a frakked jump?

Scupper

03-10-2006, 03:58 PM

I forgot one more thing:

When Admiral Cain explains how the Pegasus escaped destruction, she says they made a "blind jump." If the operation of jump drives was as simple as just entering the coordinates and going, wouldn't that imply that just turning on the drive wouldn't send you anywhere at all? That's not what happens, so I tend to think there's a bit more to it.

levdrakon

03-10-2006, 04:46 PM

levdrakon

03-10-2006, 04:53 PM

Enter the wrong coordinates, you still end up exactly where you told the FTL engine to take you. How can you be pulled off-course just because you got the coordinates wrong?

And by this I mean, how would the FTL computer/engine know you got the coordinates wrong, and therefore, "oh, I guess I'll just veer off towards some random gravity well."

Merijeek

03-10-2006, 04:54 PM

Jumping into a planet is a real possibility if you're planning on jumping in close to a planet, which is why Boomer cursed Gaeta for plotting a jump so close to a planet. I don't see as it's got much to do with the planet's gravity. If I throw a dart and want to hit just outside the bull's eye, there's a good chance I could hit the bull's eye. Oops, inside a mountain.

I don't know what Admiral Cain meant by "blind jump" but I'm guessing it still requires specific coordinates. Sorta like in the miniseries when Adama told Gaeta to make a jump, "beyond the redline."

I'm fairly confident that the redline was simply that humanity KNEW with great certainty all the big stuff you might actually land inside within a specifc radius. Outside that particular well-mapped radius? Well, here's hoping we don't die instantly.

I imagine that Cain did pretty much the same thing.

I don't see how you can just fire up the FTL engines and say "jump." It was probably more like, pick some random coordinates and jump there. But why would that pull them into the nearest gravity well? If that were so, then it would be impossible to jump in close to a planet and actually end up where you want, because the large gravity well would pull you off-course. I just don't see planets & stars as huge space-time suck-points, as far as BSG FTL travel is concerned.

These guys managed to get nine Raptors to all jump into Caprica's atmosphere, and they all managed to maintain their relative spacing amongst themselves which to me implies if you get the coordinates right, you end up exactly where you want. Enter the wrong coordinates, you still end up exactly where you told the FTL engine to take you. How can you be pulled off-course just because you got the coordinates wrong?

And yes, I know it's just a show, and Ron Moore isn't big on science.

You're being way too picky. What you're arguing against is Scupper's attempt at rationalizing how things work. Sure, you've blown out of the water an idea that he/she whipped out as a best guess.

That doesn't change the fact that his (enough of this he/she crap) point is that YOU don't know how BSG's FTL works. Neither does Scupper, and neither do I. It's quite possible that Moore doesn't know either.

So, either way, coming up with "It's impossible for it work that way" really isn't going to get you anywhere unless you can point to where it's already been contradicted in the show.

Particularly when the writer said that it was LUCK. Luck that they hit the one in a zillion of landing in front of a habitable planet because someone mis-heard or mis-typed a set of coordinates.

-Joe

levdrakon

03-10-2006, 05:10 PM

That doesn't change the fact that his (enough of this he/she crap) point is that YOU don't know how BSG's FTL works. Neither does Scupper, and neither do I. It's quite possible that Moore doesn't know either.

Of course I don't know how it works. I remember way back at the beginning of the series, Ron Moore described how he kinda sorta imagined how the FTL works, and he used the analogy of taking a piece of paper, imaging that as space, placing a dot on two of the corners, and instead of traveling across the whole sheet of paper, their FTL technology was more like folding the paper such that the two dots touched each other. So you don't have to travel across space, you just take an instantaneous short cut from point A to point B.

But hey, if he want's to write if off as "luck" what can I do? Well, I'll tell you what I can do - I can nit-pick. :mad: :)

Scupper

03-10-2006, 05:13 PM

Basically, I think it's not just a simple 3-point coordinate system that you enter into the FTL drive. It's some kind of algorithm or non-static formula that has pretty sensitive parameters. The calculations are apparently time-sensitive, since they do not have any sort of "Jump Chart" that has pre-defined points for them to jump to.

The Pegasus's "Blind Jump," coordinates or no, is seen by Adama as very risky. If the possible destination points of a random jump were evenly spread throughout a sphere the size of the range of the drive, then a Blind Jump would hardly be risky at all, would it?

It doesn't require any science, only examination of the only evidence we have (the events depicted in the show itself) and a basic understanding of levdrakon's original point, which is that it's really unlikely that this would happen by accident.

The fact that it couldn't really happen by accident if all the destinations of a bad jump were equally likely logically suggests that they are not equally likely. Since the characters in the show are quite vocal about their fear of this very possibility and the only result of a "bad jump" that we have seen appeared within spitting distance of an earth-sized body, it would seem to me that there is some bias in the mix here that weights any error heavily toward gravity wells.

Yes, this is rationalization, but you're talking to someone who once tried to rationalize the timelines of all three Terminator movies, which is an order of magnitude sillier than this.

Cervaise

03-10-2006, 05:44 PM

Yes, this is rationalization, but you're talking to someone who once tried to rationalize the timelines of all three Terminator movies, which is an order of magnitude sillier than this.:D

carnivorousplant

03-10-2006, 07:05 PM

As I said, my problem with calculating a jump is that it implies some knowledge of what's there, which implies some Trekian FTL sensors.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not Trek bashing, I'd rather see more DS9 eps that BG, but I digress and attract rotten fruit.

Maybe it's probablity. Quantum mechanics writ large, if you will. That would explain lengthy calculations that increase as the distance of the jump increases.
Give that there are x solar systems, y asteroids, z black holes, w random masses and each has a probability of being in such and such a place and some path or folding of space has to be calculated to avoid the possibility of hitting one.