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Aeschines
03-05-2006, 01:36 AM
I have seen columns like this appearing in newspapers ever since I knew what sex was. They go something like this:

Dear Advice Columnist,

We used to have a great marriage, but six months ago I caught my husband looking at pornography on the Internet. I was heartbroken, but my husband said that he would never do it again.

Imagine my shock when I found my husband masturbating to Internet porn in the middle of the night last night. I'm heavier than I used to be but not obese. What should I do?

Shocked and Scandalized



The reply:

Dear Shocked and Scadalized,

You are in a very grave situation. You do not need to, and should not have to, put up with this abuse.

Seek counseling immediately. If your husband does not go with you, go by yourself. Good luck.

Advice Columnist


I'm always *shocked* myself that there are women stupid and/or uninformed enough to write such letters. But here are some things to keep in mind going forward:

1. Hel-LO! 99.9% of men use porn, and you wouldn't want to associate with the 0.01% who don't (asexuals and hardcore religious nuts). If you are in any way surprised that your man stimulates his sausage with pr0n, then you are a hopeless retard.

2. Yes, you are too fucking fat, and that's the biggest reason why he's jacking off to two-dimensional entities. The other reason is that you weren't very sexy, smart, or interesting in the first place, and 5+ years of marriage have only diminished those meager qualities.

3. "Counseling" doesn't do dick.

4. Monogamy is a canard.

Why do women expect men to be anything other than what they, by nature, are?

Miller
03-05-2006, 01:39 AM
Well, I was with you up 'til point one. Then it got all stupid.

Larry Borgia
03-05-2006, 01:43 AM
I don't believe you have ever seen that actual exchange in any advice column.

kambuckta
03-05-2006, 01:44 AM
Whoah, where does one begin?

Cite that 99.9% of all men view *porn* (as classified, not chicks in bras in the lingerie ads)

Cite that the 0.01% who don't view or use porn are either eunuchs or fundy freaks.


On second thoughts, after reading the OP again, I don't know why I bothered with trying for a reasonable retort...............

:o

mhendo
03-05-2006, 01:44 AM
Well, I was with you up 'til point one. Then it got all stupid.
Ditto.

Aeschines
03-05-2006, 01:45 AM
I don't believe you have ever seen that actual exchange in any advice column.I read something really close in the last few weeks.

FlyingCowOfDoom
03-05-2006, 01:51 AM
I don't look at porn. I'm happily married and not a religious nut. I don't think you have a very good grasp on reality.

--FCOD

Aeschines
03-05-2006, 01:51 AM
Cite that 99.9% of all men view *porn* (as classified, not chicks in bras in the lingerie ads)How about this:When the magazine Psychology Today asked 20,000 readers whether they had ever used erotic material for arousal, 92 percent of the male respondents and 72 percent of the females reported that they had.Cite. (http://www.bettersex.com/sexdata/term.asp?termid=Pornography&cookie%5Ftest=1) Dude, you know the numbers are huge.Cite that the 0.01% who don't view or use porn are either eunuchs or fundy freaks.Who the fuck else would they be?On second thoughts, after reading the OP again, I don't know why I bothered with trying for a reasonable retort.Go whack off to porn.

Aeschines
03-05-2006, 01:55 AM
I don't look at porn. I'm happily married and not a religious nut. I don't think you have a very good grasp on reality.Perhaps not, but I've got a good grasp on something.

Maybe you have good material to work with. Don't gloat--most of us don't.

FinnAgain
03-05-2006, 01:58 AM
Go whack off to porn.

I like reading good crazy.
I mean, I really, reallllly like reading me some good ol' crazy.
Don't stop. Whatever you do... don't... stop... don't.... stop... don't stop!

ahem.

Aeschines
03-05-2006, 01:59 AM
Don't stop. Whatever you do... don't... stop... don't.... stop... don't stop!Oh, oah, oaaaah!

FlyingCowOfDoom
03-05-2006, 02:02 AM
Maybe if you spent less time looking at porn you'd be able to get a great wife too. (In my experience, most nice women don't care for porn and they like even less a guy who is obsessed with it)

--FCOD

P.S. I didn't look at porn before I was married, either.

Aeschines
03-05-2006, 02:07 AM
Maybe if you spent less time looking at porn you'd be able to get a great wife too.Are you suggesting I turn in my current model?(In my experience, most nice women don't care for porn and they like even less a guy who is obsessed with it)I'm beginning to think you're one of those Wonderbread nice guys who think everything is fucking nice because, you know, it's just so fucking nice.

I have just completed thinking you're one of those Wonderbread nice guys.
P.S. I didn't look at porn before I was married, either.Then either you were banging heat back then, too, or you're a puss who thinks porn is "naughty."

Would Jesus disapprove? Would he? Huh?

Richard Pearse
03-05-2006, 02:08 AM
Come on, you're a COW for christ's sake! How would you even turn the pages?

FlyingCowOfDoom
03-05-2006, 02:14 AM
I wasn't "banging heat" at the time, but I did have a respect for women and I don't think it's right to objectify them. Also, I think it's kinda sick to look at sexual images of women to whom I have no emotional attachment. In other words, women are not sex toys, they're people. I don't care if they're voluntarily exposing themselves; I still think it's disgusting.

I don't particulary care what Jesus would do, although I tend to think he'd agree with me.

--FCOD

Queen Bruin
03-05-2006, 02:15 AM
I wonder why your wife is so unhappy too, Aeschines, and why you're so bothered about it that you open a Pit thread on the topic. It seems this goes beyond sex and looks. You sound like a very angry person and probably in need of counseling (I'm not basing that on your porn use, I'm basing that on your attitude here.)

And if I were to WAG, I'd say you are not Teh Hawt, either.

FlyingCowOfDoom
03-05-2006, 02:16 AM
Come on, you're a COW for christ's sake! How would you even turn the pages?Yeah, turning pages is kinda hard, but you have no idea how difficult it is to type with hooves.

--FCOD

Queen Bruin
03-05-2006, 02:17 AM
I wonder why your wife is so unhappy too, Aeschines, and why you're so bothered about it that you open a Pit thread on the topic.
Sorry, I should clarify that the "it" is the attitude your perceive women to have of porn.

ParentalAdvisory
03-05-2006, 02:19 AM
So basically, FCOD is the 1% in this thread.

Aeschines
03-05-2006, 02:21 AM
I wasn't "banging heat" at the time, but I did have a respect for women and I don't think it's right to objectify them.Very noble. So pr0n is BAD, right? OK, all us bad dudes better stop looking at pr0n 'cause it's bad. Gosh.Also, I think it's kinda sick to look at sexual images of women to whom I have no emotional attachment.Mmm, so sick and abnormal that the vast majority of men do it. Whither the species!In other words, women are not sex toys, they're people.Can't they be both?I don't care if they're voluntarily exposing themselves; I still think it's disgusting.It's shameful I tell you!

Aeschines
03-05-2006, 02:27 AM
For a man so dedicated to his sausage creature that he named himself after it, you certainly are *shockingly* prudish.
I wonder why your wife is so unhappy too, Aeschines, and why you're so bothered about it that you open a Pit thread on the topic.Actually, my own wife doesn't care much about that kind of thing, nor is she jealous or a control freak. It's a great thing about our relationship.

I was stimulated to write this thread, in fact, by seeing just such a stupid column the other day. And I see other stupid advice columns all the time that assume that monogomy is a given and anyone who violates our society's straight-laced, uptight, Judeo-Christian version of monogamy is bad, bad, bad.You sound like a very angry person and probably in need of counseling (I'm not basing that on your porn use, I'm basing that on your attitude here.)And you sound like a sactimonious, annoying fuck, but I wouldn't recommend counseling for you. Because counseling does dick.[/QUOTE]

FinnAgain
03-05-2006, 02:32 AM
(In my experience, most nice women don't care for porn and they like even less a guy who is obsessed with it)


How odd. Interesting sample you bring to the table.


I wasn't "banging heat" at the time, but I did have a respect for women and I don't think it's right to objectify them.

Objectify. People use that word often, I'm not quite sure what it's supposed to mean. What, exactly, does the objectification of someone entail, and how does that connect to porn as opposed to, say, athletics.


Also, I think it's kinda sick to look at sexual images of women to whom I have no emotional attachment.

Just curious, but is that personal for you or how you view others as well? Is it, for instance, 'sick' for men (or women) to enjoy looking at sexual images of people who they don't have an emotional attatchment to?


In other words, women are not sex toys, they're people.

Are the two mutually exclusive? One of Finn's Fundamental Findings is that some-but-not-all women, no matter how strong and capable and independant, would very much like to be thrown down on the floor, or a bed, or bent over the arm of a couch and just fucked silly. Sometimes it's all about the sex and the heat, and to hell with anything and everything else.

But, of course, that's not for all people. So I'm just sorta curious as to whether you're couching your aesthetic tastes as personal only or how you believe others should act as well?


I don't care if they're voluntarily exposing themselves; I still think it's disgusting.

So women who choose to be involved in sexual exhibitionism are wrong to do so and are disgusting? Or just the people who enjoy seeing what they enjoy showing?

In conclusion, I will leave you with a link to a search. (http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=the+internet+is+for+porn&ei=UTF-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&fr=moz2)
The song is most likely not worksafe, but probably wouldn't get anybody in trouble... still, I'm linking to a yahoo-video search for it, Just click the first link if you think you'd be fine watching the video where you are. Yeep.

Queen Bruin
03-05-2006, 02:33 AM
For a man so dedicated to his sausage creature that he named himself after it, you certainly are *shockingly* prudish. I'm a woman.

Actually, my own wife doesn't care much about that kind of thing, nor is she jealous or a control freak. It's a great thing about our relationship.

If that's the case, then great for you. But I wonder why this "column" touched such a nerve with you.

And you sound like a sactimonious, annoying fuck, but I wouldn't recommend counseling for you.
So I was right about that Hawt thing, right?

Queen Bruin
03-05-2006, 02:36 AM
Also, I'm not prudish. I just wonder what crawled up your ass and died.

Odesio
03-05-2006, 02:39 AM
Even Dr. Laura said it was ok for a man to have a few nudie magazines. I think there's a big difference between a few porno movies and some magazines and full blown obsession.

Marc

Aeschines
03-05-2006, 02:41 AM
I'm a woman.Oh, haw haw haw haw! That explains everything. You could have saved us both a bunch of time by simply stating that in your first post!But I wonder why this "column" touched such a nerve with you.Didn't, really, just saw it, marvelled at the stupidity of it, and thought it would make a good Pit thread.So I was right about that Hawt thing, right?I don't know what that is.

danceswithcats
03-05-2006, 02:43 AM
So grab your dick and double-click for porn, porn, porn. The Internet is for Porn (http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/internet4porn).

Aeschines
03-05-2006, 02:44 AM
Oh I see, Sausage, you were asking whether I'm hot or not, right?

I don't see the relevance, but yes, I am.

Aeschines
03-05-2006, 02:45 AM
"Objectifaction" of a woman means that a man has aching balls and his tongue is hanging out and he wants to bang a broad instead of "supporting" and/or "respecting" her.

It's a horrible thing!

FinnAgain
03-05-2006, 02:48 AM
So grab your dick and double-click for porn, porn, porn. The Internet is for Porn (http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/internet4porn).

I win the Internet! (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7165381&postcount=22) Fear me.

Queen Bruin
03-05-2006, 02:53 AM
Oh, haw haw haw haw! That explains everything. You could have saved us both a bunch of time by simply stating that in your first post!.
'Cause then you'd know right away that my opinion is invalid and to skip my post, right?


I don't see the relevance, but yes, I am. I'll take your word for that. I asked because, IME, the men that yell the loudest about his wife being a fat cow etc. are usually tubbos, themselves.

Aeschines
03-05-2006, 03:00 AM
'Cause then you'd know right away that my opinion is invalid and to skip my post, right?No, you're missing the point: A lot more guys are into porn than women. Contrariwise, very few men think porn is "bad." Quite a few women think porn is bad.

FWIW, I'm not myself really into porn. But the key fact that the advice columns are missing is that most men (including myself) don't find the whole porn category to be bad, and most men, at least now and then, jack off to porn of some type. That's true now, it will be true 250 years from now.I'll take your word for that. I asked because, IME, the men that yell the loudest about his wife being a fat cow etc. are usually tubbos, themselves.That may well be the case. But the hypocrisy of it doesn't in any way aleviate their pain at having no access to a sexually attractive partner.

Queen Bruin
03-05-2006, 03:03 AM
No, you're missing the point: A lot more guys are into porn than women. Contrariwise, very few men think porn is "bad." Quite a few women think porn is bad. I don't.

FWIW, I'm not myself really into porn. But the key fact that the advice columns are missing is that most men (including myself) don't find the whole porn category to be bad, and most men, at least now and then, jack off to porn of some type. That's true now, it will be true 250 years from now.
Agreed.

That may well be the case. But the hypocrisy of it doesn't in any way aleviate their pain at having no access to a sexually attractive partner.
So, the women involved here aren't suffering?

Who_me?
03-05-2006, 03:07 AM
There's nothing wrong with porn, as long as it doesn't become some kind of obsession.



I sure hope the 100 gigs of it on my computer doesn't count as an obsession. ;)

cckerberos
03-05-2006, 03:10 AM
I sure hope the 100 gigs of it on my computer doesn't count as an obsession. ;)Not even close.

kambuckta
03-05-2006, 03:14 AM
A lot more guys are into porn than women.

So, they prefer porn to real, breathing ladies?

:D

Aeschines
03-05-2006, 03:18 AM
So, the women involved here aren't suffering?Women suffer horribly from what men do. Men in general are godawful swine.

But the willful naivete of women in our society regarding the nature of male sexuality hurts men and themselves at the same time.

Put simply, here's our problem: Men are pigs, and women pretend that they aren't until they can pretend no longer.

kambuckta
03-05-2006, 03:22 AM
Women suffer horribly from what men do. Men in general are godawful swine.

But the willful naivete of women in our society regarding the nature of male sexuality hurts men and themselves at the same time.

Put simply, here's our problem: Men are pigs, and women pretend that they aren't until they can pretend no longer.


Oh yeah, preach it sister!!

Come the revolution, all men will be castratos. YEAH!!

Oh, what?

Oh, fuck.............. :(

Smeghead
03-05-2006, 03:24 AM
Women suffer horribly from what men do. Men in general are godawful swine.

But the willful naivete of women in our society regarding the nature of male sexuality hurts men and themselves at the same time.

Put simply, here's our problem: Men are pigs, and women pretend that they aren't until they can pretend no longer.
Awww....somebody's got a case of the Mondays!

Queen Bruin
03-05-2006, 03:32 AM
But the willful naivete of women in our society regarding the nature of male sexuality hurts men and themselves at the same time.

The same could be said for the naivete of many men towards female sexuality.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go slip into my starched nightgown and go through the Nightly Scouring of my House for my Husband's Porn, The Joint Recital of the Monogamy Doctrine and the Nightly Scrotal Rubber Band Check.

kambuckta
03-05-2006, 03:35 AM
Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go slip into my starched nightgown and go through the Nightly Scouring of my House for my Husband's Porn, The Joint Recital of the Monogamy Doctrine and the Nightly Scrotal Rubber Band Check.


Sounds kinda kinky.......can we all join in?

:p

Khan
03-05-2006, 03:57 AM
I've seen exchanges like the one in the OP, and the suggestion that the couple needs counseling because the guy likes to rub one out to Penthouse once in a while really pisses me off.

Thing is, Aeschines, I take it from your comments that you dramatized the exchange somewhat. Did "scandalized" really volunteer that about her weight? If not, I'll be disappointed. If so, it seems to me that it's more about her insecurity than her husband's "infidelity" (:rolleyes:).

To wit:

"Do you hate your body so much you have to reduce every painting of the female form to pornography?"
-Family Guy

lee
03-05-2006, 05:00 AM
Promising rant until point #1 and point #2 especially.

The women that freak out over men and their porn are no worse and no better than the men who freak out over women using sex toys. Both should learn to deal with it and not see the inanimate as competition.

If a husband refuses to have sex with a wife for the sole reason that she is fat, then he has problems. No one stays perfectly as they were in their youth. If the fire in a relationship is doused by a bit of fat, how is it going to cope with liver spots?

FlyingRamenMonster
03-05-2006, 05:01 AM
Add me to the list of people who were about to agree with you before you started talking.

Queen Bruin
03-05-2006, 05:09 AM
Sounds kinda kinky.......can we all join in?


Only if you promise to film.

Also, what lee said.

MsRobyn
03-05-2006, 07:27 AM
Besides, for every woman who's gained weight and is maybe not quite as good-looking as she was when she was younger, there's a man with a bad combover, a beergut that belongs in a museum, and spends a little too much time on the couch watching sports and not enough time paying attention to his wife.

I don't see anything wrong with porn but when it becomes a substitute for actual sex with one's partner, it's a problem.

Robin

Hamadryad
03-05-2006, 07:39 AM
Just chiming in against the people who imply that the type of question/response in the OP is unusual. I've seen variations on "My husband won't stop watching porn" "Then take the sick fuck to counseling or dump him" an awful lot of times myself, in newspaper, magazine AND internet columns. I've seen it in the daily paper and in Reader's Digest.

I agree that in some ways it seems like Aeschines woke up with a hearty bowl of Stupid Flakes, but I can understand the apparent arm-waving and ranting. I agree with the "he's going to look at porn; get past it or move on" school of thought. Every time I see some advice column-readin' dipschitte whine about how porn on the internet or cable or in magazines is ruining! her! marriage! I want to do some ranting and arm-waving too.

Muffin
03-05-2006, 08:08 AM
Even Dr. Laura said it was ok for a man to have a few nudie magazines.And credit goes to her for personally providing pictoral content.

catsix
03-05-2006, 08:12 AM
Yeah it's such a shock that men look at porn. They're in a really, really tiny minority if they don't look at porn, and those are the ones that worry me.

Flying Cow of Doom said:
I wasn't "banging heat" at the time, but I did have a respect for women and I don't think it's right to objectify them.

I have an ex-boyfriend who thought that way. He also tended to consider sex 'bad and wrong' because it's disrespectful to use a woman. I had to dump him or accept being sexually frustrated forever.

Also, I think it's kinda sick to look at sexual images of women to whom I have no emotional attachment.

So am I sick because I look at sexual images of men to whom I have no emotional attachment? Hell I fuck men I am not emotionally attached to.

In other words, women are not sex toys, they're people. I don't care if they're voluntarily exposing themselves; I still think it's disgusting.

I don't think it's up to you what women are. It's up to women what women are, and if they want to be naked in a magazine or a movie or on the Internet, then that's up to them. It's not your place to make judgements about them and whether or not what they're doing is disgusting. I don't need you being all sanctimonious and patronizing and telling me that I'm not a sex toy, because it's not your place to decide how I use my body.

Linty Fresh
03-05-2006, 08:16 AM
Awww....somebody's got a case of the Mondays!

More like somebody's got a case of "My Wife Caught Me Whacking Off To barnyardluvshenanigans.com And Now She Won't Put Out."

The thing is that I agree with Aeschines. Watching porn is like smoking pot: It only becomes a problem if you do too much of it, or if your mother walks in on you while it's going on.

Just stop being such a drama queen about it, Aeschinese, OK?

jlzania
03-05-2006, 09:00 AM
I don't see anything wrong with porn but when it becomes a substitute for actual sex with one's partner, it's a problem.

Robin
Bingo!
I don't have a problem with porn per se.
However, I don't want my husband using erotic images of barbie women as a subsitute for for doing the actual dirty deed with me.
I love having sex with him, I'm generally eager, able, and willing and I make an effort to be attractive and sexy.
I want his sexual energy directed towards me and not his right hand and images of a stranger.
I've always wondered if men who are married or in a long term relationship that watch tremendous amounts of porn actually have a really good sex life with their partners.

Binarydrone
03-05-2006, 09:05 AM
I know that the OP used the Fat word, which seems to be the signal around here for the to get out the pitchforks and torches, no matter the context, but buried in there is a point.

I, too, have read advice columns like this one and have also wondered at the reality disconnect. Specifically, in the great majority of cases, men use porn. There also seems to be a pretty big drive amongst spouses to make this shameful, dirty and to somehow take it personally.

I think that the question that the OP has is simply why it is that we are unable to admit this seemingly basic element of male nature and move on. What do you do if you still have a sex drive but are not as attracted physically to your wife? Why do we seem to be setting ourselves up (as a culture) for marital strife?

El_Kabong
03-05-2006, 09:10 AM
Watching porn is like smoking pot: It only becomes a problem if you do too much of it, or if your mother walks in on you while it's going on.

Not to mention how much more of a problem it becomes if she then says, "Hey! Who said you could borrow my porn?"

jlzania
03-05-2006, 09:20 AM
I think that the question that the OP has is simply why it is that we are unable to admit this seemingly basic element of male nature and move on. What do you do if you still have a sex drive but are not as attracted physically to your wife? Why do we seem to be setting ourselves up (as a culture) for marital strife?
You know, the physical attraction thing works both ways. :D

Years ago, a very smart man I knew cautioned me that a good sexual relationship, like any other relationship, required effort by both partners.
That included not only keeping yourself in shape and attractive to your SO but making the time for quality sex-including communicating about and exploring your fantasies together, tapping into your sensuality as well as your sexuality and putting as least as much effort into a great sex life as you do all the other aspects of your life with each other.
Sure, you may never get that same little buzz that comes with sex with a new partner but the other benefits of being with the same person, at least in my exprience, far outweigh that.

MsRobyn
03-05-2006, 09:21 AM
I, too, have read advice columns like this one and have also wondered at the reality disconnect. Specifically, in the great majority of cases, men use porn. There also seems to be a pretty big drive amongst spouses to make this shameful, dirty and to somehow take it personally.


I think it comes down to a false dichotomy based on unrealistic expectations.

Some women believe in the whole happily-ever-after model of marriage. They also think porn is a substitute for them. (Sometimes it is, but sometimes it's not.) So when they find their husbands whacking it to naked pictures of Paris Hilton, or whoever, they take it as a personal rejection. So it's an either-or: Either Johnny wants ME or he wants that WHORE and if he wants that WHORE, he doesn't want ME anymore.

Robin

monica
03-05-2006, 09:39 AM
Women need to realize that sometimes men need more than one sexual outlet (the first one being them). So long as the use of porn isn't replacing having sex with his wife, there's no problem with it. Furthermore, I kind of think that if this helps a man get what he needs, it's most certainly a better option than cheating.

Larry Borgia
03-05-2006, 09:40 AM
I'd bet a fair amount of money that the real letter writer cited by Aeschines wasn't upset that her husband looked at porn. She was upset that her husband was looking at porn so much he was ignoring her both physically and emotionaly. That seems like a valid complaint to me.

I don't think any woman outside of Jackchickistan is going to be that upset if her husband occaisionally looks at porn. We live in the age of teh internets, when it's pretty much impossible not to look at porn. But looking at porn so much you blow off your mate seems a form of infidelity to me, a bad thing for men or women.

Beware of Doug
03-05-2006, 09:50 AM
Women suffer horribly from what men do. Men in general are godawful swine.

But the willful naivete of women in our society regarding the nature of male sexuality hurts men and themselves at the same time.

Put simply, here's our problem: Men are pigs, and women pretend that they aren't until they can pretend no longer.Yeah, but they only do it because of their atavistic biological code of reproductive fitness. Way I see it, if all they're looking for is a thick neck and a paycheck, they're kind of getting what's coming to them in the psychosocial burgoo that is Modern Life Today.

Yeah, I've had the Mondays all fukken week...

astro
03-05-2006, 10:35 AM
And credit goes to her for personally providing pictoral content.

Actually she was pretty hot! Google Dr. Laura photos (no quotes)

Syntropy
03-05-2006, 11:26 AM
Women need to realize that sometimes men need more than one sexual outlet (the first one being them). So long as the use of porn isn't replacing having sex with his wife, there's no problem with it. Furthermore, I kind of think that if this helps a man get what he needs, it's most certainly a better option than cheating.
I'll go along with that.

Put me in that camp that doesn't understand why some women are shocked, SHOCKED!! to find out their husbands masturbate. They're men, they do that. Men also happen to like looking at naked women. The two sort of go hand in hand. No pun intended. On top of all this, you introduce the internet, which is basically porn with the occasional informational site here and there, and, well...personally, I don't see how Playboy and Penthouse still make a profit with all the free internet porn to be had.

Women tend to equate sex with love, which men (for the most part) don't do. One female friend of mine told me she caught her husband masturbating and he told her he was bored. She didn't believe him. :rolleyes: I told her what a male friend of mine told me a long time ago:
"Any grown man who tells a woman he's never whacked off is a liar. Any grown man who tells a woman he USED to whack off, but doesn't any more is a filthy liar."
Honey, your husband is going to masturbate. Maybe he's bored, maybe he just woke up from a nap with a hardon, who knows? As long as it doesn't take away from his sex life with you, what's the problem?

mhendo
03-05-2006, 11:37 AM
I, too, have read advice columns like this one and have also wondered at the reality disconnect. Specifically, in the great majority of cases, men use porn. There also seems to be a pretty big drive amongst spouses to make this shameful, dirty and to somehow take it personally.

I think that the question that the OP has is simply why it is that we are unable to admit this seemingly basic element of male nature and move on. What do you do if you still have a sex drive but are not as attracted physically to your wife? Why do we seem to be setting ourselves up (as a culture) for marital strife?That's a laudable effort to parse the OP and turn it into a coherent debate. I think you've identified some of the key issues.

Shame the OP himself was too busy spanking to pictures of his father fucking his sister to make a similarly coherent post.

DianaG
03-05-2006, 11:48 AM
Women need to realize that sometimes men need more than one sexual outlet (the first one being them). So long as the use of porn isn't replacing having sex with his wife, there's no problem with it. Furthermore, I kind of think that if this helps a man get what he needs, it's most certainly a better option than cheating.
Another thing to consider is that sometimes, you don't want to have sex, which involves concerning yourself with the needs and feelings of another person. You just want to have an orgasm. In that sense, I think that porn is, for some men, the equivalent of vibrators for some women. It's not meant as a substitute for another person. It's a tool that helps you achieve that end without involving another person.

xcheopis
03-05-2006, 11:55 AM
I'd bet a fair amount of money that the real letter writer cited by Aeschines wasn't upset that her husband looked at porn. She was upset that her husband was looking at porn so much he was ignoring her both physically and emotionaly. That seems like a valid complaint to me.

I don't think any woman outside of Jackchickistan is going to be that upset if her husband occaisionally looks at porn. We live in the age of teh internets, when it's pretty much impossible not to look at porn. But looking at porn so much you blow off your mate seems a form of infidelity to me, a bad thing for men or women.
She may also have been pretty upset that he lied about it. I've no problem with boyfriends watching porn; it's when they lie about it that the relationship is over.

SusanStoHelit
03-05-2006, 12:11 PM
I don't think any woman outside of Jackchickistan is going to be that upset if her husband occaisionally looks at porn. We live in the age of teh internets, when it's pretty much impossible not to look at porn. But looking at porn so much you blow off your mate seems a form of infidelity to me, a bad thing for men or women.

My mother (who does not live in Jackchickistan) would be very bothered if my dad looked at porn. She told me once that if I ever found a Maxim magazine or anything like it in a guy's room that I should stay away from him.

An I also found a letter on the family computer one time (I wasn't snooping, I was trying to clean up the hard drive and she had saved it as C:\letter.doc with no password protection) where she was writing to Focus on the Family asking for a book on Christian sex because she was convinced that anything other than missionary position was "dirty, like in a video."

My mom is in every other way a warm, open, fully functioning non-crazy.

Count me another woman who doesn't care if her man looks at porn as long as she still gets hers. My SO and I enjoy it together and separately, and I've always told him he can look at it and talk about it to me as long as he doesn't say something suicidal like "why can't your tits be more like hers?"

One woman who called Dr Laura about this problem admitted that even though she had forbidden her husband to look at porn the last time they had had sex was 6 months ago :eek: Dr Laura reamed her a new one for that, and told her that she should be grateful that her husband had made the decision to stay in a sexless marriage but to realize that he didn't give up his humanity or male-ness when he said his wedding vows. Suprisingly good advice.

Guinastasia
03-05-2006, 12:31 PM
I'd be more pissed about him visiting porn sites and potentially infecting the computer with viruses, which most porn sites are notorious for.

Aeschines
03-05-2006, 12:36 PM
I'd bet a fair amount of money that the real letter writer cited by Aeschines wasn't upset that her husband looked at porn. She was upset that her husband was looking at porn so much he was ignoring her both physically and emotionaly. That seems like a valid complaint to me.Sure, she complained about the latter but was also complaining about the former as though looking at pr0n was itself an abberation and something she couldn't tolerate at all.

She also brought up her weight. I wished I'd saved the paper so I could just have you read the damn thing, but others here have confirmed that they've seen similar columns, so I think my point has been made an taken here.I don't think any woman outside of Jackchickistan is going to be that upset if her husband occaisionally looks at porn. We live in the age of teh internets, when it's pretty much impossible not to look at porn. But looking at porn so much you blow off your mate seems a form of infidelity to me, a bad thing for men or women.A lot of women still live in Jackchickistan, my friend. A lot.

DianaG
03-05-2006, 01:06 PM
A lot of women still live in Jackchickistan, my friend. A lot.
:rolleyes:

Yes. As clearly evidenced by the number of women in this thread who have come down firmly on the porn=bad side of the argument.

Has it occured to you that when it comes to neurotic, repressed morons, the common denominator is probably not so much "people with XX chromosomes" as "people who write to advice columnists"?

mhendo
03-05-2006, 01:14 PM
Has it occured to you that when it comes to neurotic, repressed morons, the common denominator is probably not so much "people with XX chromosomes" as "people who write to advice columnists"?Heh heh. True enough.

But don't discourage them, because they keep people like Dan Savage working, and reading other people's problems is fun.

Chefguy
03-05-2006, 01:23 PM
So am I sick because I look at sexual images of men to whom I have no emotional attachment? Hell I fuck men I am not emotionally attached to.


Okay, I'll say it: How you doin'? And good, earthy, human response, by the way.

This thread is hilarious, in my opinion. Americans are so conflicted between their puritan ethic and their desire to be sexual beings that they start frothing over something as inane as nude photos, while secretly buggering the yogurt cups. Those who protest the loudest about porn are those who are likely secretly surfing sites like BIGMEAT.org, or feeling somehow unclean because they have lustful thoughts about the pool cleaner. I don't agree with the OP's points, necessarily, but am amused by the size of the pot of shit he's stirred up.

Anastasaeon
03-05-2006, 01:37 PM
Hmmm... this thread looks comfy.

I have to encourage my husband to look at porn more often. Nope, I'm not the slimmer girl he married, but he still fucks my brains out with the lights on and his eyes open four or five times a day.
I watch porn. He has his thing, I have mine. I encourage him to masturbate and look at whatever porn he likes in order to get off on the days I'm not up to having sex (particularly bad menstrual period, sick with the flu, etc). I've offered to leave the house once when he came home for lunch a little early, thinking I wouldn't be home, because I thought he might have needed some "quality time" with himself. (turns out he was hiding an anniversary present. d'oh.) I think it's a healthy habit to get into, because one day, my sex drive will probably wane (after we add kids to the mix, more stress, etc).
However, we are a strange couple, it seems. He finds me interesting to talk to, I like to look at women more than he does, he's the one that really wants children someday, and I have the largest collection of porn.
Also, though I'm a dirty, dirty girl in the bedroom (and sofa, and countertops, and the shower), most people consider me a very nice girl in public (or, you know, with company). I don't walk around wearing clothes too small for me or showing off too much skin. Or flab. Ugh. Most folks, unless they read my stuff here, would have no idea how my sex life was, and likely assume incorrectly if they're thinking of it at all. Except, of course, our poor neighbours. Sorry, guys.

Anyway, just adding my name to the list of females who are not put off by porn.

Mr. Miskatonic
03-05-2006, 02:22 PM
IShe didn't believe him. :rolleyes: I told her what a male friend of mine told me a long time ago:
"Any grown man who tells a woman he's never whacked off is a liar. Any grown man who tells a woman he USED to whack off, but doesn't any more is a filthy liar."


The joke version of that line goes like this: In a recent survey, 96% of men stated that they masturbate. The other 4% lied.

The Flying Dutchman
03-05-2006, 04:36 PM
. Any grown man who tells a woman he USED to whack off, but doesn't any more is a filthy liar."


That makes me a filthy liar.

Count me as one who can't understand why a married man who has a healthy married life feels the need to masturbate.

mhendo
03-05-2006, 04:48 PM
Count me as one who can't understand why a married man who has a healthy married life feels the need to masturbate.'Cause it's fun?

Just because i buy a new XBox 360 doesn't mean i stop playing with my Gameboy.

This is not some zero-sum game where every time i jerk off, i miss out on sex with my wife, or vice versa. It's possible to do both.

Wolfian
03-05-2006, 04:55 PM
Shame the OP himself was too busy spanking to pictures of his father fucking his sister to make a similarly coherent post.
Well, fuck. That killed my hard-on.

Suburban Plankton
03-05-2006, 04:57 PM
1. Hel-LO! 99.9% of men use porn, and you wouldn't want to associate with the 0.01% who don't (asexuals and hardcore religious nuts).

That makes 99.91%. And the other 0.09% of men are named Schroedinger?

Amazon Floozy Goddess
03-05-2006, 05:16 PM
2. Yes, you are too fucking fat, and that's the biggest reason why he's jacking off to two-dimensional entities. The other reason is that you weren't very sexy, smart, or interesting in the first place, and 5+ years of marriage have only diminished those meager qualities.


Not true.

My husband looked at some porn back when I was quite thin (I had gallstones and couldn't keep any food down; it was eventually removed). He continued to look at it after I got better and gained some weight back. The amount he had or frequency of viewing it didn't change. It never took precedence over our relationship, and if he had the feelings you state above, he would have married a magazine instead of me, don'tya think?

MelCthefirst
03-05-2006, 05:56 PM
One thing I became aware about with internet porn usage was that the line between just looking and wanking, and looking, talking, exchanging pics and wanking with people online can become a little blurry.
My ex husband was addicted to internet porn and dope - we had a brilliant sex life right up until the marriage ended. But when I wasn't at home, he apparently was talking with women online about sex and exchanging videos and pics. I used to have no issues whatsoever with looking at porn - now I'm a bit more wary about it.

Der Trihs
03-05-2006, 07:24 PM
Count me as one who can't understand why a married man who has a healthy married life feels the need to masturbate.Because being married doesn't mean you have a synchronized sex drive. It doesn't mean you'll both want sex just as much, at the same times. Should a man divorce his wife just because he'd like to have sex more often than she does ?

Richard Pearse
03-05-2006, 08:08 PM
One thing I became aware about with internet porn usage was that the line between just looking and wanking, and looking, talking, exchanging pics and wanking with people online can become a little blurry.
My ex husband was addicted to internet porn and dope - we had a brilliant sex life right up until the marriage ended. But when I wasn't at home, he apparently was talking with women online about sex and exchanging videos and pics. I used to have no issues whatsoever with looking at porn - now I'm a bit more wary about it.

Obviously the lines for your ex were blurred, but in general there is quite a clear line between passively looking at internet porn, and going to some kind of chat room to look at porn and talk to people. The latter requires some thought and effort, it's not really something you just stumble in to.

MelCthefirst
03-05-2006, 08:13 PM
Obviously the lines for your ex were blurred, but in general there is quite a clear line between passively looking at internet porn, and going to some kind of chat room to look at porn and talk to people. The latter requires some thought and effort, it's not really something you just stumble in to.

Are you sure about that? - agreed my ex was an addict, but I don't imagine that on a bored and horny day it takes much to look and find a site with homemade pics and videos, then find out you can ask for more from the person who made them etc.

even sven
03-05-2006, 08:25 PM
Wow.

You'll never meet a bigger porn advocate than me. I once spent an entire semester trying to convince a women's studies class that porn was great.

But Aeschines, you've left the realm of reality here. Some frustrated little emotion of yours has exploded and left a mess all over this thread. You seem to have forgotten that women are humans, with the same hopes and flaws and dreams and problems that all humans have. I go whole days without trying to castrate anyone. I once spent a week without trying to rope men in to an expensive sexless marriage. During that week I did all kind of things that normal people do- cooked lunch, went bowling, had a few glasses of wine. Please step back for a moment and look to see that women are not some great freaky flaw in the universe with malevolent designs on men- but rather humans with the same portion of good and bad as any other group of humans.

Aeschines
03-05-2006, 08:54 PM
Please step back for a moment and look to see that women are not some great freaky flaw in the universe with malevolent designs on men- but rather humans with the same portion of good and bad as any other group of humans.Would you care to cite something I said that justifies such verbiage?

Both men and women have flaws in their natures that tend to make themselves and each other miserable. It's the human condition. I don't blame one sex more than the other.

TastesLikeBurning
03-05-2006, 09:44 PM
I don't look at porn. I'm happily married and not a religious nut. I don't think you have a very good grasp on reality.

--FCOD

This is coming from the same guy who posted this. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=354677)

even sven
03-05-2006, 09:51 PM
Would you care to cite something I said that justifies such verbiage?

Yeah, I can cite nearly everything you've said in this whole damn thread.

Why do women expect men to be anything other than what they, by nature, are?

Read: Women don't "get" men. Women are trying to destroy man's true nature.
Also implied: All women are the same. Women do not have a sexual nature. Women manipulate men.

Oh, haw haw haw haw! That explains everything. You could have saved us both a bunch of time by simply stating that in your first post!

Read: SausageCreatures's gender invalidates her contribution to the thread.
Also Implied: All women have the same opinion on the subject. A woman by nature does not have anything interesting or meaningful to contribute to the subject, presumably because she "lives in Jackchickistan"

"Objectifaction" of a woman means that a man has aching balls and his tongue is hanging out and he wants to bang a broad instead of "supporting" and/or "respecting" her.

Read: A woman's desires in a relationship and a man's are fundamentally different and irreconcilable.
Also implied: Women are using their sexual wiles to force men to support them emotionally (and perhaps financially) and not giving men what they want in return. Women would all rather have "support" and "respect" over sex.

Women suffer horribly from what men do. Men in general are godawful swine.

But the willful naivete of women in our society regarding the nature of male sexuality hurts men and themselves at the same time.

Put simply, here's our problem: Men are pigs, and women pretend that they aren't until they can pretend no longer.

Read: Men are "swine", but thats okay. The real problem is with women.
Also Implied: Women are all too dumb, manipulative, or deluded to just give in and have no-strings sex with men all the time. Women don't like sex. Sexual relations are bad for women, who "suffer horribly" from them. Women are always the victim in situations like this, because women are easily victimized. The solution is for women to learn to accept men that make them "suffer horribly".

A lot of women still live in Jackchickistan, my friend. A lot.

Read: A lot- a lot- of women are prudes.
Also implied: Women don't like sex. Women are crazy like Jack Chick. Women are irrational.

Guinastasia
03-05-2006, 10:17 PM
Uh, sven, you attibuted those quotes to msmith, when it was Aeschines you had a problem with.

even sven
03-05-2006, 10:28 PM
Uh, sven, you attibuted those quotes to msmith, when it was Aeschines you had a problem with.

Whoops!!

Uzi
03-05-2006, 10:40 PM
In my experience, most nice women don't care for porn and they like even less a guy who is obsessed with it


Why on earth would you want a 'nice' women? I think someone like Anastaseon* would be much more fun.

*I'm not saying that Anastaseon isn't nice just that she doesn't seem to be, uhh, 'nice'. :D

Aeschines
03-05-2006, 10:44 PM
Read: Women don't "get" men.Often not, and vice versa. Hence the book Men Are From Mars.Women are trying to destroy man's true nature.Nope, the needs of the sexes are often simply antithetical. It's the human condition.Also implied: All women are the same. Women do not have a sexual nature. Women manipulate men.Not implied.Read: SausageCreatures's gender invalidates her contribution to the thread.No. It's just that many more women are opposed to porn than men for reasons that are, apparently, hard-wired. I thought I was arguing against a man opposed to porn, but it made much more sense when I found out she was a woman.Also Implied: All women have the same opinion on the subject. A woman by nature does not have anything interesting or meaningful to contribute to the subject, presumably because she "lives in Jackchickistan."[quote]Sadly, you're providing a data point that supports the generalism that woman suck at logic.[quote]
Read: A woman's desires in a relationship and a man's are fundamentally different and irreconcilable.No, but what can be said is that there are built-in, hard-wired contradictions that come into play between the average woman and the average man, resulting in the average relationship having serious problems.Also implied: Women are using their sexual wiles to force men to support them emotionally (and perhaps financially) and not giving men what they want in return. Women would all rather have "support" and "respect" over sex.To clarify, men are pigs and women are golddiggers. Women often think, often correctly, "He just wants my body," and men often think, often correctly, "She just wants my money."

It's hard to find even a successful relationship in which the above feelings never come into play. The needs of men and women are asymetrical and often contradictory.Read: Men are "swine", but thats okay. The real problem is with women.Nope.Also Implied: Women are all too dumb, manipulative, or deluded to just give in and have no-strings sex with men all the time. Women don't like sex. Sexual relations are bad for women, who "suffer horribly" from them. Women are always the victim in situations like this, because women are easily victimized. The solution is for women to learn to accept men that make them "suffer horribly".Nope. But it does seem part of the female hard-wiring not to see her man as he is but always through a lens of hope and wishful thinking.Read: A lot- a lot- of women are prudes.A lot more women than men, right.Also implied: Women don't like sex. Women are crazy like Jack Chick. Women are irrational.Uh, well, on that last point, please reread your post. Thanks!

even sven
03-05-2006, 11:02 PM
If your theories are correct, gay guys should never have these kinds of fights because they are "hardwired" the same. I assure you this is not true, and gay men break up over the same issues of jealousy, golddigging, cheating, shillness and other relationship baddies that crop up any time two humans get close. Try listening to some Pansy Division songs one day- the only thing different about their love found/love lost songs from a straight band is the pronouns.

We have been living in civilizations for 10,000 years. During this, we have managed to change all manner of things we are "hardwired" to do. If there is anything less natural than putting on a suit, hopping on a bus, and going to work on a computer in an office building, I don't know what it is. But I do this every day without ever picking for fleas or scratching in the mud or something. Gender roles are just another product of our society (note that in Islamic though, women are the ones with unrestrained sexuality that need the civilizing factor of men to keep them from screwing everything in sight) and are no more universal than liking the Beatles.

Furthermore, most men and women managed to live their lives without these massive gender clashes. I know these things never come up in my relationship- we have a happy, economically equal, sexual and loving relationship. Non-gender related factors (like my love of travel or his love of mess) are a much bigger issue than our caveman urges. Maybe you are from Mars and your woman is from Venus, but the rest of the world is getting along just fine.

Queen Bruin
03-05-2006, 11:14 PM
I thought I was arguing against a man opposed to porn, but it made much more sense when I found out she was a woman.
Where did I say I was opposed to porn? On

Queen Bruin
03-05-2006, 11:15 PM
Forget that 'On', I don't know where I was going with that.

Guinastasia
03-05-2006, 11:19 PM
Yeah, didn't want you to get in trouble, sven.

Aeschines, I would argue that it's not hard-wired so much as women in our society, until very recently, and even now, have been brought up to believe that "nice girls don't do that", that a decent girl doesn't talk about sex, or act sexy, and that porn is something bad and shameful.

Aeschines
03-05-2006, 11:28 PM
If your theories are correct, gay guys should never have these kinds of fights because they are "hardwired" the same. I assure you this is not true, and gay men break up over the same issues of jealousy, golddigging, cheating, shillness and other relationship baddies that crop up any time two humans get close.You're going to have to explain the above better for it to make sense. I haven't discussed gays at all in this thread.
We have been living in civilizations for 10,000 years. During this, we have managed to change all manner of things we are "hardwired" to do.If we've changed them, then they weren't hardwired.

Is your claim that humans have no hard-wired tendencies? And/or that there are no hard-wired differences between the sexes visible over large enough populations?If there is anything less natural than putting on a suit, hopping on a bus, and going to work on a computer in an office building, I don't know what it is.Yeah, and those things aren't hard-wired (wearing clothing probably is).Gender roles are just another product of our society (note that in Islamic though, women are the ones with unrestrained sexuality that need the civilizing factor of men to keep them from screwing everything in sight) and are no more universal than liking the Beatles.Gender roles no doubt have a lot of input from society (environment), but they aren't "just another product" of the environment. Much there is hard-wired.Furthermore, most men and women managed to live their lives without these massive gender clashes. :confused:
Most, huh? I know these things never come up in my relationship- we have a happy, economically equal, sexual and loving relationship. Non-gender related factors (like my love of travel or his love of mess) are a much bigger issue than our caveman urges. Maybe you are from Mars and your woman is from Venus, but the rest of the world is getting along just fine.What a retarded way to phrase things! You act as though its my idea about the Mars thing. There's a fucking book about it that reflects a lot of people's experiences.

I'm glad you have a good relationship, but to actually see the world and comment intelligently on it, you have to take your head out of your ass.

Aeschines
03-05-2006, 11:34 PM
Aeschines, I would argue that it's not hard-wired so much as women in our society, until very recently, and even now, have been brought up to believe that "nice girls don't do that", that a decent girl doesn't talk about sex, or act sexy, and that porn is something bad and shameful.I agree that female sexuality in European society has been pushed into the prudish zone for a long time, but in general you see similar attitudes across societies and over long periods of time: Females are to be protected, they are either whores or madonnas, etc.

The larger point is this: I think it's funny when people say (about any tendency), "Oh, that's just 'cause society makes it that way," even though that tendency has been in evidence for 10,000 years across the species.

A social practice could not exist for that long without some hard-wiring to support it.

Sierra Indigo
03-05-2006, 11:37 PM
Count me as one who can't understand why a married man who has a healthy married life feels the need to masturbate.



TMI, anecdote time. Slightly OT.



Last night hubby and I were having a second go-round just before going to bed. We'd already had a go earlier that evening, and both had come, but because it was our second time in a few hours hubby was feeling it but just not getting anywhere. Eventually I came, but it worked out we had to stop, because I was getting too tired and sore. So I went to sleep, and hubby gave himself a hand.

Other times we'll not have sex for a couple of weeks at a time, because I work a rotating shift roster and often our schedules just don't match. I know during those times hubby will have a wank every so often, sometimes with and sometimes without pr0n. Just because I'm not in the mood doesn't mean I'm going to make him go without any stimulation at all.

Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled pissing match. [/hijack]

DianaG
03-05-2006, 11:42 PM
A social practice could not exist for that long without some hard-wiring to support it.
Or, unless it somehow benefited powerful members of society.

Are you implying that social practices like, oh, I don't know...racism are equally justified by "hard-wiring", or just misogyny?

Measure for Measure
03-06-2006, 12:15 AM
Er "justified" is different than "explained by".

DiosaBellissima
03-06-2006, 12:22 AM
I would really, really like to see some sort of cite for the whole "women don't like porn" thing. Just about all of the women I know love porn. Now, most of these women wouldn't outwardly admit to the public about the porn loving, but they do it (much like masturbation).

So either I hang out with particularly slutty girls or ya'll aren't quite right with that point.

Omniscient
03-06-2006, 12:28 AM
Aeschines, I'm with you man, I really am, but tell me that point #2 was sarcasm. I think it is, but it seems that many folks in this thread think it's literal.

Tracy Lord
03-06-2006, 12:57 AM
And a cite for the "hardwired" thing -- "I read it in a Strindberg play" doesn't count.

even sven
03-06-2006, 01:22 AM
You're going to have to explain the above better for it to make sense. I haven't discussed gays at all in this thread.
I'll use small words. If our love problems are really because boys and girls are dramatically different, then gay men (or lesbians) should not have the same problems- since the whole venus/mars problem shouldn't exist. Either they should have great relationships with no problems with expectations, or they should have some other totally weird problems that we haven't accounted for. However, evidence shows that gay people live love lives much ours. HUMANs have a hard time forming close relationships, not men and women.


Is your claim that humans have no hard-wired tendencies? And/or that there are no hard-wired differences between the sexes visible over large enough populations?
My claim is that any "hard wired" tendencies are going to be so removed from nature and expressed in such weird ways in our pretty wholly artificial culture that how they affect our real life is difficult to figure out.

I just don't believe in this biological determinism BS. Cecil once said that the cuteness of the story of a word's origin has an inverse relationship to its likelihood of being true. But all biological determinism has is 'cuteness' and frankly I'm not buying it. Sure, we can look at our society and say that women are prudes and come up with some likely sounding story for why that benefited cave-women. But if women were not prudes in our society we'd be looking for some likely reason why being slutty benefited cave-girls. And either way the only evidence we have is how clever the story is. Of course it's easy to come up with great explanations when we already know the answers we want.

Yeah, and those things aren't hard-wired (wearing clothing probably is).

It's not too hard to find places where they don't wear clothing. Human culture takes on huge and amazing varieties- you can find almost anything as a cultural norm somewhere. I somehow doubt the modern US dating relationships is somehow so clearly and obviously related to our true human nature and someplace that practices different dating behavior (say, medieval Japan) is not.

Gender roles no doubt have a lot of input from society (environment), but they aren't "just another product" of the environment. Much there is hard-wired.

So why do some cultures see women as the sexual aggressors? Why are women the head of household in other cultures? Why do some cultures consider the father to be an essential part of the family and others all but kick them out? Why are women's clits cut off in other cultures? Do you think our culture is somehow a better reflection of human nature, or that these other cultures are just freaks, or what?

What a retarded way to phrase things! You act as though its my idea about the Mars thing. There's a fucking book about it that reflects a lot of people's experiences.

Yeah, and there's a book about how there is a secret code in the Bible that foretells Moby Dick. [b]Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus[/i] was a big hit because it told people that their relationship problems weren't their fault, and that they had a right to act however they feel like as long as they can claim thats also what cave-men liked. It's on the same plane as The Rules or He's Just Not That In To You, which is to say that it has a catchy name that makes for good Oprah segments, gives people yet another set of feel-good things they can tell themselves until they get bored of it, and provides a nice easy explanation for infinitely complex problems. If it's made your life better, more power to you. But it aint science.

even sven
03-06-2006, 01:24 AM
Fuck, I said "Japan"! Can we change that to "Medieval Meso-America" before we all get a lecture on how dating practices in Medieval Japan are the missing link between modern america and cavemen?

D_Odds
03-06-2006, 08:09 AM
I don't believe you have ever seen that actual exchange in any advice column.Well, while the OP may have been taking poetic license, I have read letters in advice columns very similar to that. The gist of it is that man wanting to look at sexy women once married is wrong. Obviously, that desire is supposed to turn off once we're married, according to questioner and advice columnist.

Aeschines
03-06-2006, 08:19 AM
Aeschines, I'm with you man, I really am, but tell me that point #2 was sarcasm. I think it is, but it seems that many folks in this thread think it's literal.Yeah, basically joking, but there is also the base reality, like it or not that, "Why doesn't he love me for who I am," must in part be answered with, "Part of who you are to him is how you look."

It's a whole different ball of wax and probably didn't belong as one of the points. But the woman in the column did volunteer that information about her looks, so I included that content.

Merijeek
03-06-2006, 08:58 AM
"Show me the most beautiful woman in the world and I'll show you a man who's sick of fucking her".

I heard that one from Bill Maher, I think. I doubt be originated it, but it's true. Men ARE preprogrammed to...spread their see far and wide.

That does not mean, however, that a guy can't control his urge to do so. For some people it's easier, for some people it's harder.

Eh.

-Joe

bup
03-06-2006, 09:15 AM
Please tell me whether the real response from the advice column included the word "abuse." That would RULE.

Otherwise, yeah, those letters are crazy, but so are your contentions that counseling doesn't work, monogamy is a canard, and that he's only masturbating because she's too fat.

Ensign Edison
03-06-2006, 09:25 AM
These conversations are amusing to me. 'Man' and 'woman' are no more real than 'Tuesday' or 'up'. They're useful shorthand for a complex set of conditions. 'Men do this, women do that' -- sometimes I wonder if we're on the same planet. People do stuff, that's all. Some like porn and others don't; some object to their partner(s) using it, and others think the more the merrier.

Sure, people's reactions will probably have something to do with their social gender designation, their chemical and genetic makeup, their upbringing, and so on. But there are so many such factors behind what makes up an individual's reaction, it's pretty much impossible to sum them up in a tidy way. Gender or sex designations definitely don't do the trick. Statistics can show trends, but the human race is made up largely of outliers at this point. :p When taken as individuals, people are infinitely variable.

True, sometimes it's hard for them to express that with everyone walking around enforcing The Rules on everyone else (or themselves) all the time. But that's kind of my point; you can't really rely on what people report to be accurate, because they'll lie if they think the answer might incriminate them. Also because even if they're being honest, the reasons for their answer might be completely different from the reasons someone else has for giving the same answer. They might both be men, and that may even have some kind of significance, but that doesn't make mannitude (mannitocity, if you will) the reason.

jlzania
03-06-2006, 10:02 AM
Yeah, basically joking, but there is also the base reality, like it or not that, "Why doesn't he love me for who I am," must in part be answered with, "Part of who you are to him is how you look."

Actually, I think there is a measure of truth in that statement.
From my experience, men are more 'hardwired' to be visual.
I cringe every time a woman says, 'But if he loves me, he shouldn't care about the fact that I've gained 50 pounds and now spend most of my time wearing baggy sweatshirts and sweat pants.".
I always want to reply, "It has nothing to do with him loving you, and everything to do with the fact that you are no longer visually erotic to him."
I remember reading a complaint posted by a man on another message board.
He was lamenting the fact that, after six years of marriage, his wife had gained 75 pounds and wore a tatty nighty to bed each night.
He wanted to stay faithful but he was no longer attracted to he woman the married.
I refuse to condemn him for his lack of desire-after all, she isn't really the same woman physically that he married and he may not have be attracted to her initially if she looked and behaved like that when they first met.
And quite frankly, Im not sure that if my husband gained an enormous amount of weight and schlepped around the house unshaven and unshowered, I would want to have sex with him either.

With that said, I don't believe men are predisposed by nature to "...spread their see(d) far and wide. "
I think that most men prefer the benefits, if you like, of sex with a woman that they know intimately, have an emotional attachment to, and that they know how to please and are comfortable sharing their sexual fantasies and desires with no fear of disapproval.
However, they also need to be able to lust after that woman and part of that lust is based in her appearance.

Skywatcher
03-06-2006, 10:30 AM
That makes 99.91%. And the other 0.09% of men are named Schroedinger?They're the ones who aren't turned on by other people getting off.

Indygrrl
03-06-2006, 10:48 AM
The only problem I have with porn is that so much of it is boring. The crap I was looking at the other day were like pictures of a woman with a dick in her mouth, eyes on the camera, just posing. It didn't look they they were actually doing anything. Or then there's the pron with women in positions that you know aren't getting her anywhere. And she's making the "oh baby" face and it just ain't happening. Either that or the people in the porn are just rough looking. I can't get into that.

If there's some hot porn out there where both people are getting into in a sincere (non-faking it) kind of way, I'd love to see it.

dre2xl
03-06-2006, 11:23 AM
To clarify, men are pigs and women are golddiggers.

Both genders can rise above their own respective hardwired greediness in choosing their mates. I'm sorry you feel that way, but you made your own choice to believe that we should serve our own hardwired desires rather than to aspire to a higher ideal such as love. As long as you persist in your belief, you will get nothing but selfish golddiggers; of course, that will serve to further cement your own perception of women as golddiggers.

Hentor the Barbarian
03-06-2006, 11:48 AM
I think the OP does a grave disservice to his argument and to men's quest to consume pornography without condemnation by introducing the fallacy that a partner's attractiveness has anything to do with the consumption of pornography. As Merijeek alludes to, it doesn't matter how attractive a partner is.

I formulated a hypothesis years ago that men are driven to mentally catalog the appearance of all vaginas. Essentially, Playboy shows the same thing month after month, but has remained in business for what, 50 years? We just want to see different people in different scenarios, and novelty is a huge factor. Porn consumption really has nothing to do with how a partner looks or whether her appearance has changed over time, and such a belief will ultimately be harmful to the spouse's self-regard, the husband's free pursuit of porn, and the husband's ability to decline participation in efforts to change himself, via therapy or otherwise.

I always wonder whether women making this argument are consumers of romance novels. Were I to find any sort of media threatening to a relationship, I would be far more worried about these than porn. They reify "romantic" schema in ways that would make men look much less desirable than simple modifications of sexual attractiveness (although, from what I've come to understand from my wife's reading of these books, most of the men have enormous throbbing manhoods (or is it menhood?)). Yet, one hardly ever hears of men complaining that women are "addicted" to romance novels, or turn to romance novels instead of their husband, or are morally deficient for their use of romance novels.

We need to support the right of all people to engage in the consumption of pornography without appealing to attacks on the appearance of others.

Evil Captor
03-06-2006, 11:59 AM
I always wonder whether women making this argument are consumers of romance novels. Were I to find any sort of media threatening to a relationship, I would be far more worried about these than porn. They reify "romantic" schema in ways that would make men look much less desirable than simple modifications of sexual attractiveness (although, from what I've come to understand from my wife's reading of these books, most of the men have enormous throbbing manhoods (or is it menhood?)). Yet, one hardly ever hears of men complaining that women are "addicted" to romance novels, or turn to romance novels instead of their husband, or are morally deficient for their use of romance novels.

We need to support the right of all people to engage in the consumption of pornography without appealing to attacks on the appearance of others.

Speaking as a writer who was pretty much picked out as a potential romance novel writer on the basis of my output (which I though was porn), there are quite a few romance novels that are indistinguishable from softcore porn. So, point well made.

Evil Captor
03-06-2006, 12:00 PM
Speaking as a writer who was pretty much picked out as a potential romance novel writer on the basis of my output (which I though was porn), there are quite a few romance novels that are indistinguishable from softcore porn. So, point well made.

Oops, meant to say

[quote]there are quite a few lines of romance novels that are ...[/b]

Guinastasia
03-06-2006, 12:09 PM
The only problem I have with porn is that so much of it is boring. The crap I was looking at the other day were like pictures of a woman with a dick in her mouth, eyes on the camera, just posing. It didn't look they they were actually doing anything. Or then there's the pron with women in positions that you know aren't getting her anywhere. And she's making the "oh baby" face and it just ain't happening. Either that or the people in the porn are just rough looking. I can't get into that.

If there's some hot porn out there where both people are getting into in a sincere (non-faking it) kind of way, I'd love to see it.


You mean erotica, rather? Yeah, I generally agree-a lot of porn is down-right laughably bad.

I'm more of a story person, anyways-I'd rather read it than watch it.


(Or, as my sister said, "Men watch porn. Women critique it.")
;)

Indygrrl
03-06-2006, 12:23 PM
You mean erotica, rather? Yeah, I generally agree-a lot of porn is down-right laughably bad.

I'm more of a story person, anyways-I'd rather read it than watch it.


(Or, as my sister said, "Men watch porn. Women critique it.")
;)

No, I want porn, with people doing the deed. I just want it to be real rather than completely set up. Essentially, I want HER to have a great big one. I'm not terribly interested in his.

I've got no interest in the story. :D

jlzania
03-06-2006, 12:29 PM
Hentor the Barbarian
We just want to see different people in different scenarios, and novelty is a huge factor. Porn consumption really has nothing to do with how a partner looks or whether her appearance has changed over time, and such a belief will ultimately be harmful to the spouse's self-regard, the husband's free pursuit of porn, and the husband's ability to decline participation in efforts to change himself, via therapy or otherwise.

I always wonder whether women making this argument are consumers of romance novels.
I'm sorry but I have to disagree.
Men may indeed be 'hardwired' to want a measure of novelty but I do think that their spouse's appearance plays as role as well.
I'm not talking about surfing the web peridically to look at porn or flipping through a Playboy every once in a while.
I'm specifically referring to men that prefer porn and maturbation to actually having sex with their SO's.
Everything I've ever read written by a man that has lost sexual interest in his partner on a message board will mention that she has gained a large amount of weight and/or otherwise has stopped making an effort to appear attractive.
And for the record-I think romance novels are badly written, badly plotted bits of pure tripe.

Hentor the Barbarian
03-06-2006, 12:31 PM
You mean erotica, rather? Yeah, I generally agree-a lot of porn is down-right laughably bad.

I'm more of a story person, anyways-I'd rather read it than watch it.


(Or, as my sister said, "Men watch porn. Women critique it.")
;)I think this is very true (that most porn is just poorly done), but what alternatives are there? Despite it being, as I understand it, an X billion dollar industry, apparently the stigma keeps people or companies of real quality from being involved. There are a few folks who put out some stuff with some thought behind it or effort put into the production of it, but not many. I much prefer some sort of story, some good acting, some decent lighting and music, some creativity behind the editing, and so forth, but I still want to see the explicit sex. If quality work isn't available, though, I'll take what is.

Another interesting phenomenon is the use of explicit sex in mainstream films. I say this is interesting because it seems that filmmakers somehow feel the need to offset having explicit sex by making the rest of the film very depressing, sad, unpleasant or just boring. People can't have sex without it being a real bummer, apparently. I'm thinking of 9 Songs, Romance, Intimacy, Brown Bunny, Baise Moi. Why not have a When Harry Met Sally with some good fucking?

What I don't understand are the videos made which cut out the explicit stuff, but use the rest of the shots. Often they loop the same shot over and over to fill where they cut out explicit material, so you end up with extra, repeated footage of some porn actor's rediculous expressions and clever dialogue ("Oh shit! Oh yeah! Oh fuck!"). So, all the bad quality with none of the explicit sex - a real winner.

Indygrrl
03-06-2006, 12:38 PM
The other thing I hate about all the porn I seem to find online is that most of it seems to have the goal of degrading someone. "Watch Miss Slut take ten guys worth of cum in her face!!!" "Watch her bend over and take three at once!!!"

Yeah, that's really sexy. Barf. I just want to see some good old fashioned fucking.

LouisB
03-06-2006, 12:43 PM
jlzania said:I think that most men prefer the benefits, if you like, of sex with a woman that they know intimately, have an emotional attachment to, and that they know how to please and are comfortable sharing their sexual fantasies and desires with no fear of disapproval.I think this becomes more and more true with age. Has for me, anyway.

Hentor the Barbarian
03-06-2006, 12:45 PM
I'm sorry but I have to disagree.That's fine - I don't have any data on this.Men may indeed be 'hardwired' to want a measure of novelty but I do think that their spouse's appearance plays as role as well.
I'm not talking about surfing the web peridically to look at porn or flipping through a Playboy every once in a while.
I'm specifically referring to men that prefer porn and maturbation to actually having sex with their SO's.
Everything I've ever read written by a man that has lost sexual interest in his partner on a message board will mention that she has gained a large amount of weight and/or otherwise has stopped making an effort to appear attractive.Well, I think you are talking about two separate things - Desire to have sex with a spouse and porn consumption. My point would be diminished if it were shown that these men increased their porn consumption systematically in response to the diminishing sexual appeal of their spouse. I would never argue that the physical appearance of a spouse would not have an impact on a person's sexual desire for the spouse. I would suggest instead that it is likely that these particular men's interest in porn has remained consistent, and may outweigh their interest in their spouse only because the latter has been diminished over time. At least, I would suspect that this is true in general. Certainly, people are idiosyncratic, including in regards to sexual behavior. However, the idea that the two activities are equivalent in some way that porn use could be a meaningful substitute for sex with another strikes me as unlikely.

And for the record-I think romance novels are badly written, badly plotted bits of pure tripe.And how often do you still read them?

Hentor the Barbarian
03-06-2006, 12:51 PM
The other thing I hate about all the porn I seem to find online is that most of it seems to have the goal of degrading someone. "Watch Miss Slut take ten guys worth of cum in her face!!!" "Watch her bend over and take three at once!!!"

Yeah, that's really sexy. Barf. I just want to see some good old fashioned fucking.I agree wholeheartedly, and find it sad to think that there is enough of a market for misogynistic porn to account for the rate at which it can be found. I like to think that this is accounted for by some moronic and juvenile producers of this material, rather than there being some proportionate demand for it.

Indygrrl
03-06-2006, 12:51 PM
"Show me the most beautiful woman in the world and I'll show you a man who's sick of fucking her".

Yeah, well, don't worry, women get sick of the same old thing too. That door swings both ways.

Guinastasia
03-06-2006, 12:52 PM
FWIW, I'm NOT talking about romance novels. I'm talking about decent written erotica. Romance novels are more for shits and giggles-who comes up with those ridiculous phrases?

Indygrrl
03-06-2006, 12:57 PM
I agree wholeheartedly, and find it sad to think that there is enough of a market for misogynistic porn to account for the rate at which it can be found. I like to think that this is accounted for by some moronic and juvenile producers of this material, rather than there being some proportionate demand for it.

Yeah, it pretty much sucks to go looking around for something to "entertain" yourself with and instead end up depressed for the poor young women in these videos. It just feels wrong to even look at it.

Ensign Edison
03-06-2006, 01:05 PM
Yeah, it pretty much sucks to go looking around for something to "entertain" yourself with and instead end up depressed for the poor young women in these videos. It just feels wrong to even look at it.

I have a lot of friends who are quite happy with their jobs in the sex industry. And I've known a lot of women and men who like it rough and nasty. I'm sure they're all ever so grateful for your pity and contempt.

Some women in porn are being exploited. Some aren't. The chances that you can tell which is which just by watching the porn are slim, regardless of the theme.

jlzania
03-06-2006, 01:10 PM
Hentor the Barbarian would suggest instead that it is likely that these particular men's interest in porn has remained consistent, and may outweigh their interest in their spouse only because the latter has been diminished over time.
I will agree with that although I suspect (and this is only from personal experience) that a man that is still attracted to his spouse and has a fufilling sexual relationship is less likely to spend hours wanking off to porn by himself.
And that begs the question of why a man's interest in sex with his spouse has diminished over time.
Has she changed greatly in appearance?
Does she still have the desire to have sex with him and does she let him know that??
Men need to be wanted sexually.
I'm reminded of a post I read on the best of Craigslist:

Hey married ladies, answer a question for me - is it really such a chore to have sex with your husband?

Im one of the many husbands (possibly wives) out there whos kids tripped over the cord on the sex machine, ripping the plug right out of the wall. That humming and sputtering sound you hear is the machine slowly grinding its way to a gear freezing halt, its future destination: the appliance graveyard under the sink where the Salad Shooter currently resides.

Somebody help me out here what do you do when your partner in life is great in every other way, but is a passion(less) fish in the bedroom? While, you yourself are one serious horn dog? For the sake of the kids, do you suck it up and be unhappy hoping and praying that your sex drive will start to wane? Do you continue to take matters into your own hands until youve exhausted every masturbatory move known to man including several youve taken it upon yourself to invent?

Sex was never an area where she was interested in making a investment or being adventuresome. Sure, shell spend three weeks looking to find the perfect sofa cushions, but two minutes to put on a piece of lingerie isnt worth the time, it just comes off anyway....

But you know what, I deserve better. Im not asking for much just a little sex, and maybe taking the initiative to start something once in a whileor put 1% of the energy you spend on wanting other things (newer better house, new clothes, new body) to wanting your husband. And for the love of God, show some fucking creativity once in a while I would be willing, make that eager, to try anything once.
Hentor the Barbarian And how often do you still read them?
I don't.
I've read exactly three romance novels in my life-when I was trapped at my parent's house and had read everything else in sight.
That was over 25 years ago and I've never wanted to read another one.
LouisB I think this becomes more and more true with age. Has for me, anyway.
I think that's true of women too.
Sure, there's something thrilling about bedding a stranger.
However, (and once again I speak from personal experience only), that thrill is far outweighed by having good sex with someone that you trust, that is familar with your body and what turns you on, and how to bring you to climax.
That you can share your desires with openly and laugh with afterwards.

Ghanima
03-06-2006, 01:40 PM
As with all things (except pregnancy and death) there is no black and white here. There's every shade of grey. Personally, I have nothing against porn, and own some explicit porn and lots of erotica. But I was still offended when I went to use my boyfriends computer and found a shitload of what I personally found to be bad porn. Bad as in really not attractive to me. We had a discussion about it. Basically, I wasn't threatened by what he was looking at, I was grossed out by it, and it made me think less of him. We have come to the agreement that he doesn't store any porn on his computer that doesn't star me. And I oblige him by letting him film me doing whatever. I'm no Jenna Jameson but I can still do a good blow job video. I know for a fact that he looks at other stuff when I'm not around. But the point is, it's not in my face AND we have sex, good sex, often. OK, he can't store his favorite stuff and oh what a tragedy he is so oppressed, but he understands and thinks that having a girlfriend and having sex is better than having a huge stash of his favorite porn. And maybe he is storing porn somewhere on his hard drive. But it's not affecting me, my relationship, or our sex life. If it was, then hell yeah I'd do something about it.

Indygrrl
03-06-2006, 01:43 PM
I have a lot of friends who are quite happy with their jobs in the sex industry. And I've known a lot of women and men who like it rough and nasty. I'm sure they're all ever so grateful for your pity and contempt.

Some women in porn are being exploited. Some aren't. The chances that you can tell which is which just by watching the porn are slim, regardless of the theme.

Guess what? I've known some sex workers too, and I've read a lot about it. And a lot of these people are heavy into drugs or were sexually abused as children. Don't speak to me as if I don't know anything about it.

And if it inspires pity in me, that's how it is, regardless of the wonderful lives you think these girls have.

MelCthefirst
03-06-2006, 01:43 PM
Perhaps some women's dislike of porn then, is based on fear. Fear that their partner is losing interest in them and/or fear that they get more pleasure from masturbation and/or fear that their partner is going to leave them?

jlzania
03-06-2006, 02:01 PM
Perhaps some women's dislike of porn then, is based on fear. Fear that their partner is losing interest in them and/or fear that they get more pleasure from masturbation and/or fear that their partner is going to leave them?
You know, I'm not afraid of porn or threatened by it at all.
Some of it I quite like.
I do not like any porn in which the woman is depicted as degraded or abused or forced to have sex against her will.
However, I know that reflects my taste only and other men and women may get turned on by the very acts I consider icky as hell.
If my husband became obsessed with porn, I might have a different attitude but first I'd really want to know what he wasn't getting from me or why or sex with me was less appealing than sex with his hand and videos of women that he would never touch or meet.

Ensign Edison
03-06-2006, 02:12 PM
Guess what? I've known some sex workers too, and I've read a lot about it. And a lot of these people are heavy into drugs or were sexually abused as children. Don't speak to me as if I don't know anything about it.

And if it inspires pity in me, that's how it is, regardless of the wonderful lives you think these girls have.

I spoke to you as if your position was ignorant, which it was, and which it remains.

Every waitress I've ever known was sexually abused as a child. Do you pity the people who wait your tables?

Yes, there are drugs and bad histories in the industry. I guess only survivors of abuse who get jobs you approve of aren't pitiable, then. And all those people who don't do drugs and weren't abused and do enjoy their work? How do they fit into your model?

It must be nice to be able to tell what's going on in another human being's head and life just by looking at a picture of them. But I think it's sad that you think so little of women.

Indygrrl
03-06-2006, 02:18 PM
Well, asshole, all I can go from is the extensive reading I've done on the subject, interviews with porn stars past and present, and 12 years of experience in the adult entertainment industry.

I never claimed to know exactly what is going on in every situation, but a lot of times I find it pretty easy to take a guess.

You go ahead and tell yourself they're all enjoying it so that you can get off looking at them. Whatever gets you through the day.

And as I said before, I do enjoy porn, sex, and entertainment of all variety. I'm not some overweight housewife crying about how my husband doesn't want to fuck me.

filmore
03-06-2006, 02:29 PM
I think it's important for women to realize that porn use a man has likely been continuous since he was 14 or so. He didn't just start looking at porn 2 months before you found out. He looked at porn before you were dating, while you were dating, while you were enaged, and while you were married.

I think many wives are like the one in the OP. They have a tendency to freak out upon finding porn, thinking that it's something that cropped up recently or in response to something regarding her (i.e. gaining weight). They consider the porn use to be something that will destroy the marriage, but they don't consider that porn use has likely been a part of his persona for quite some time.

Any wife who discovers porn and wants crucifies her husband because of it also needs to explain why his continual use of porn since puberty did not cause problems. Is the porn she just found greatly different than the porn in the past? Even if she found bestiality porn, that doesn't mean it's necessarily a problem. Perhaps he's been looking at it his whole life. Why would it be causing a problem now when it didn't for all the previous years?

Ensign Edison
03-06-2006, 02:31 PM
Well, asshole, all I can go from is the extensive reading I've done on the subject, interviews with porn stars past and present, and 12 years of experience in the adult entertainment industry.

Do you really think I would be in your face right now if I did not also have experience in the industry, and very close family and friends involved with it? I just don't see a need to make things personal or try to out-experience-cred people, and here's why: Having all that experience and reading and so on doesn't make either of us right. Either we are or we aren't. It might change the odds of rightness, but it doesn't mean a damn thing by itself. What if your position, based on your experience, was that all women who don't wear head-to-toe covering are whores? I think we'd both agree then that you were wrong, regardless of how informed you ought to be.

I never claimed to know exactly what is going on in every situation, but a lot of times I find it pretty easy to take a guess.

You go ahead and tell yourself they're all enjoying it so that you can get off looking at them. Whatever gets you through the day.

If I did use that kind of porn, which I don't, why do you think would it automatically invalidate my position? Why isn't it possible that I might have come to my conclusions based on reason and information? Because I disagree with you? Or is it just that someone who gets off to something you don't approve of isn't worthy of an opinion about it?

And as I said before, I do enjoy porn, sex, and entertainment of all variety. I'm not some overweight housewife crying about how my husband doesn't want to fuck me.

I don't know who you're talking to with this, but it's not me. None of it is relevant to my point.

Indygrrl
03-06-2006, 02:44 PM
I have a "live and let live" attitude about this kind of stuff. I'm not "against" it or trying in any way to stop anyone from enjoying it or producing it. When I gave my opinion, that's all it was. Yeah, it was based on anecdotal evidence and personal research, but at the base of it it is still an opinion.

I think women should be able to do whatever kinds of movies and porn they want. I don't have to be comfortable with it, and I'm certainly not judging them. But if I skim across "Shanna takes 300 men in 3 hours" I'm not going to be turned on by it and I'm probably going to have a twinge of pity for the girl. Sure, she may be having the time of her life, but unfortunately I won't be able to see it that way. My mind will go to thoughts of the abused and addicted women I have known.

Maybe that's just my problem, but strangely I don't feel that way looking at a lot of other types of porn. And I'm not telling anyone else here how to feel about it, just like I don't need anyone to tell me how to feel about it.

MelCthefirst
03-06-2006, 03:14 PM
I agree with Indygrrl and some others - of the porn I've seen, including things like playing cards etc, it has all been made for men and I think that is why it doesn't do much for many women. I do not find it erotic in the slightest. Some sex scenes in movies are much more erotic - anyone seen the sex seen in The Piano with Harvey Keitel, boy did that get me going!

Hentor the Barbarian
03-06-2006, 03:15 PM
I will agree with that although I suspect (and this is only from personal experience) that a man that is still attracted to his spouse and has a fufilling sexual relationship is less likely to spend hours wanking off to porn by himself.Okay, if not hours, how much time might a man who is attracted to his spouse, with a fulfilling sexual relationship, nevertheless spend enjoying pornography?If my husband became obsessed with porn, I might have a different attitude but first I'd really want to know what he wasn't getting from me or why or sex with me was less appealing than sex with his hand and videos of women that he would never touch or meet.similarly, what if he merely enjoyed looking at pornography and masturbating from time to time in a non-obsessive way?

What if he masturbated about a fantasy woman without using pornography? Would such behavior count as "sex with his hand" with a "woman he would never touch or meet"? If he did, would this mean that he was not getting something from you or that masturbating was less appealing than "sex with his hand"?

Is there any consumption of pornography that would not indicate that something is wrong with the man?

jlzania
03-06-2006, 03:41 PM
Hentor the Barbarian, I apologize for obviously not making my point more clearly as you seem to believe that I'm saying any happily married man that views porn and masturbates has something wrong with him.
I'm not.
I have no problems with my husband viewing porn or masturbating to it unless it becomes detrimental to our relationship and our sex life-in other words, if he preferred to watch porn alone rather than having sex with me on a constant and regular basis.
Or if when I'm, here ready willing and able, he still wanted to exclude me and sit alone at his computer and watch videos, I would think it indicative of a deeper and greater problem in our marriage.
I happen to believe that a good sex life is a big part of a good relationship.
It's something else we can share together to give both of us pleasure and maybe, bring us closer together.
You may not feel that way and that's fine too.

threemae
03-06-2006, 04:21 PM
Only on the Dope would people pull out the pitchfork for making the argument that women are less likely to be appreciative or tolerant of porn.

The Hook
03-06-2006, 05:51 PM
Oh, come one. Good porn is out there. I recommend the stuff by Abbie Winters. It's the only paysite worth signing for. :p If in doubt, I also suggest you seek a legally questionable preview.

I'm a guy and I like it when the emphasis is on the girl. I mean, men are boring. I don't want to see a woman yell her lungs out because a guy is just standing there while she's going all Rockette on him.

Cerri
03-06-2006, 06:21 PM
So grab your dick and double-click for porn, porn, porn. The Internet is for Porn (http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/internet4porn).


Aaaand...here's the World of Warcraft version of that song, my personal favorite. ;)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5430343841227974645

As far as the OP goes...

I'm a woman. *I* like porn, and I masturbate to it. (I tend to prefer reading erotica (Literotica being my fave site) to looking at magazines, but I also have about 10 GB of porn on my computer, so I do enjoy the visual stimulation too)

I certainly don't have a problem with my hubby watching it/masturbating to it. If I do it, it'd be hypocritical for me to say he can't, after all.

I guess I don't get why some women think it's something negative about them that causes guys to want to watch porn. A combination of insecurity/fear/low self-esteem/religious issues is my guess.

In my experience, whether a guy wants to watch porn or not has nothing to do with how good their relationship/sex life is.

Then again, I've made a career out of taking my clothes off for men for money, and have had plenty of casual sex with guys I wasn't emotionally involved with in the past, so I'm probably not a "nice" girl anyways.

My hubby likes it just fine that way, too. ;)

No, I want porn, with people doing the deed. I just want it to be real rather than completely set up. Essentially, I want HER to have a great big one. I'm not terribly interested in his.


Check out The Women's Guide to Good Porn (http://www.babeland.com/sexinfo/features/womenguidetoporn/) and Porn for Couples (http://www.tinynibbles.com/pornforcouples.html) for some recommendations. There's a market for porn made by women for women, you just have to look for it. Especially look for porn made by female directors. Candida Royalle's Femme Productions is a pretty good starting spot, imo.

Aeschines
03-06-2006, 07:18 PM
Even sven, you continue to use logic very poorly and make one mistake that women (for reasons hard-wired or otherwise) very often make: Thinking that raising a counter-example completely nullifies any claim that a tendency exists in a population. Pretty much your whole post relies upon this fallacy.

The part about gays doesn't, however; it's wrong for another reason.If our love problems are really because boys and girls are dramatically different, then gay men (or lesbians) should not have the same problems- since the whole venus/mars problem shouldn't exist.Homosexual relationships are by definition not heterosexual--that is, not the same--and thus may or may not be subject to the same internal dynamics.Either they should have great relationships with no problems with expectations, or they should have some other totally weird problems that we haven't accounted for. However, evidence shows that gay people live love lives much ours. HUMANs have a hard time forming close relationships, not men and women.You have a point here: relationships are difficult between any two types of people.

One main pseudo-problem with hetero realationships is that society demands that they last happily ever after. This just isn't realistic. But part of the reason for that demand is that men and women screw and have kids, and kids stick around for awhile. Our society's response to that reality is the myth of "eternal love" with social pressures to enforce the myth.My claim is that any "hard wired" tendencies are going to be so removed from nature and expressed in such weird ways in our pretty wholly artificial culture that how they affect our real life is difficult to figure out.Sorry, but you're full of shit. For example, our ability to talk is hard-wired. The fact that we're social animals is hard-wired.There has been laughter and humor in every human society. There has been music in every single human society. Those are just black-and-white obvious examples, and it goes from there. Our tendency to wear clothes and ornaments is no doubt hard-wired (there is not a society in the world that goes buck naked without any kind of clothing or ornamentation).

It's true that there are many things where the exact relationship between nature and nurture is hard to pin down, and we can argue about those all day long.I just don't believe in this biological determinism BS.Who knows what you mean by that term. Humans have a certain biology that both limits us (we can't breathe underwater) and empowers us (we can talk). Within our empowering qualities as well are limitations; e.g., we can do math in our head but we can't add three numbers together simultaneously; just can't do it.Cecil once said that the cuteness of the story of a word's origin has an inverse relationship to its likelihood of being true. But all biological determinism has is 'cuteness' and frankly I'm not buying it.Hmm, so whatever you feel is the truth, huh?Sure, we can look at our society and say that women are prudes and come up with some likely sounding story for why that benefited cave-women. But if women were not prudes in our society we'd be looking for some likely reason why being slutty benefited cave-girls. And either way the only evidence we have is how clever the story is. Of course it's easy to come up with great explanations when we already know the answers we want.That sounds like a common critique of evolutionary psychology and its "just-so stories." But such a critique doesn't invalidate our observation of tendencies that our species exhibits over vast swathes of time and space. We can disagree about the origin of the tendencies, but they are there.It's not too hard to find places where they don't wear clothing. Human culture takes on huge and amazing varieties- you can find almost anything as a cultural norm somewhere.Yep, humans exhibit a wide range of behaviors, but you also see behaviors that appear in 100% of societies, such as speech.So why do some cultures see women as the sexual aggressors? Why are women the head of household in other cultures? Why do some cultures consider the father to be an essential part of the family and others all but kick them out? Why are women's clits cut off in other cultures?And my response is this: Why do the vast majority of cultures exhibit behaviors opposite to the ones you cite? Because in addition to black-and-white, can't-deny-'em universals in human experience (language, laughter, music), there are tendencies that are very strong but not 100% (male dominance, nuclear families, intertribal warfare).Do you think our culture is somehow a better reflection of human nature, or that these other cultures are just freaks, or what?Nowhere in my posts do I indicate anything of the sort.[b]Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus[/i] was a big hit because it told people that their relationship problems weren't their fault, and that they had a right to act however they feel like as long as they can claim thats also what cave-men liked.Bullshit. You obviously haven't read the book.It's on the same plane as The Rules or He's Just Not That In To You, which is to say that it has a catchy name that makes for good Oprah segments, gives people yet another set of feel-good things they can tell themselves until they get bored of it, and provides a nice easy explanation for infinitely complex problems.Right, you can invalidate any set of books you arbitrarily group together because you feel like grouping them together and feel like invalidating them. Nice.If it's made your life better, more power to you. But it aint science.I don't think John Gray's thought on the matter is by any means the final word, but I think he has many insights. As to whether his work deserves the vaunted appelation "science," well, I'm not sure whether any of the social sciences are in the same league as physics and chemistry.

Ensign Edison
03-06-2006, 07:30 PM
Homosexual relationships are by definition not heterosexual--that is, not the same--

When come back, bring valid premise.

Anaamika
03-06-2006, 07:54 PM
I think we've had this discussion before. Anyway, I'm not getting involved in the argument...just count me in as another woman who likes porn, probably looks at it more than him these days, and certainly wouldn't stop him from looking at it. I don't own him, you know.

SusanStoHelit
03-06-2006, 08:25 PM
The only problem I have with porn is that so much of it is boring. The crap I was looking at the other day were like pictures of a woman with a dick in her mouth, eyes on the camera, just posing. It didn't look they they were actually doing anything. Or then there's the pron with women in positions that you know aren't getting her anywhere. And she's making the "oh baby" face and it just ain't happening. Either that or the people in the porn are just rough looking. I can't get into that.

If there's some hot porn out there where both people are getting into in a sincere (non-faking it) kind of way, I'd love to see it.


Didn't we have a pornographer here on the boards once who said essentially the same thing. Abby something.

ITA. And why do they always have to fuck like they're mad at each other?
I think that kind of pron must be sexy to guys for one of three reasons:

1. They just don't know what does it for a girl
2. That kind of porn is pretty much all there is
3. Guys don't care what's going on as long as there are naked boobies

I just want to see pretty naked people making each other happy. Is that so wrong?

Guinastasia
03-06-2006, 08:36 PM
I just want to see pretty naked people making each other happy. Is that so wrong?


Oh my god, YES! You sick freak you!

:p


I know why most porn sucks-low budget, it's hard to find decent looking people willing to do it, but dammit. It's still annoying.

Aeschines
03-06-2006, 09:04 PM
When come back, bring valid premise.Whoops, arguments are valid or invalid, not premises.

And my premise was a priori true.

Ensign Edison
03-06-2006, 09:26 PM
Whoops, arguments are valid or invalid, not premises.

And my premise was a priori true.

Hey, did you read anything in this thread besides where you pissed on it? Cuz I was kind of making that point recently.

"Homosexuality is different from heterosexuality by definition" only because the sexes involved are different. Until you prove that homosexual relationships are functionally different, and that the people involved don't experience the same disconnects as in hetero relationships (hint: you can't, because they do) your premises about male/female relationships are easily falsified, as others have noted.

Ellis Dee
03-07-2006, 04:25 AM
"Homosexuality is different from heterosexuality by definition" only because the sexes involved are different. Until you prove that homosexual relationships are functionally different, and that the people involved don't experience the same disconnects as in hetero relationships (hint: you can't, because they do) your premises about male/female relationships are easily falsified, as others have noted.What does a heterosexual bring to a second date?

A U-Haul.I would argue that it's not hard-wired so much as women in our society, until very recently, and even now, have been brought up to believe that "nice girls don't do that", that a decent girl doesn't talk about sex, or act sexy, and that porn is something bad and shameful.I've never been able to grasp this concept. Is the idea that if enough people of authority tell you that sex is bad, then you believe them? Because speaking as a guy, that just does not compute. All the disapproval in the world cowers in fear from the unstoppable sex drive of a teenage boy.With that said, I don't believe men are predisposed by nature to "...spread their see(d) far and wide. "
I think that most men prefer the benefits, if you like, of sex with a woman that they know intimately, have an emotional attachment to, and that they know how to please and are comfortable sharing their sexual fantasies and desires with no fear of disapproval.You seem to be trying to disprove the assertion that men are predisposed to spread their seed far and wide with the idea that a stable intimate relationship provides better sex. They have nothing to do with each other. As has already been stated upthread, multiple times, by men: sexual desire is not a zero sum game.

As much as some in this thread continue to aggressively assert that there are no basic traits innate to the genders, I'm starting to think that viewing sexual desire as a zero sum game is a uniquely female perspective.

Dubious Weasle
03-07-2006, 06:06 AM
Guess what? I've known some sex workers too, and I've read a lot about it. And a lot of these people are heavy into drugs or were sexually abused as children. Don't speak to me as if I don't know anything about it.

And if it inspires pity in me, that's how it is, regardless of the wonderful lives you think these girls have.



I think the point is that while many are "heavy into drugs or were sexually abused" many are not and without personal knowledge of the actresses there's no way to tell which catagory they fall into. Thus, any feelings of pity or distress you have over scenes is because you are projecting the performers as belonging to the former group rather then the latter combined with the basic problem that, it's just not your style of gettin' it on and is a turn off.

Okay, hold up. Projecting is kind of a loaded word and it's not really what I'm getting at so I'll try another way. Plus it ignores the whole arousal issue.

Basically, we have our own tastes about what does and does not turn us on. If it turns us on we're enjoying ourselves and are suitably distracted. If not, then we're not distracted or frequently, outright bored. Boredom leads to analysis. Analysis+distaste leads to speculation about these women's horrible lives and pity ensues.

Now, that's just a very clumsy analysis but I am leading to a point.

What happens when you are watching porn that you actually do enjoy? Well-made "erotica" with two attractive people who seem to be having a great time etc. Now, there's no good reason I know to think that just because the women is starring in higher quality porn the women doesn't have drug/abuse issues and so my question is this. Do you still pity them?

Dubious Weasle
03-07-2006, 06:07 AM
FWIW, I'm NOT talking about romance novels. I'm talking about decent written erotica. Romance novels are more for shits and giggles-who comes up with those ridiculous phrases?

I'm curious. Where do you draw the line between romance novels and erotica? Is itsimply a matter of how well written it is? How explicet? How about erotica vs soft-core porn?

HMS Irruncible
03-07-2006, 07:32 AM
Like many others on the thread, I agree with point 1. I have read similar advice columns and heard female acquaintances go off on jeremiads about how if a man checks out porn that the relationship is in jeopardy and the woman needs to lay down the motherfuckin' law about this unacceptable behavior. I agree that it's just petty, vain, and naive to dictate a very personal habit that doesn't involve anybody else. Of course it's possible to overdo anything, whether it be stamp-collecting or lesbian porn.

However, Aeschines, you've ventured into fucking moron territory by blaming porn on the wife being a fat cow. Perhaps sometimes that's true but not always. The honeymoon phase usually diminishes at some point without either partner losing attractiveness. Even if it doesn't, men have a strong desire for sexual novelty. And sometimes a man just wants action a lot more often than the woman does, and gets tired of imposing. There are a million different reasons and not all of them have to do with the woman being a cow.

Merijeek
03-07-2006, 08:00 AM
I agree with Indygrrl and some others - of the porn I've seen, including things like playing cards etc, it has all been made for men and I think that is why it doesn't do much for many women. I do not find it erotic in the slightest. Some sex scenes in movies are much more erotic - anyone seen the sex seen in The Piano with Harvey Keitel, boy did that get me going!

Okay, Jeff. :)

Anyways, can someone tell me what kind of porn involves "playing cards"?

-Joe

DianaG
03-07-2006, 08:36 AM
However, Aeschines, you've ventured into fucking moron territory by blaming porn on the wife being a fat cow.
And then he set up camp in fucking moron territory when he blamed the wife's issues on her being a woman.

eleanorigby
03-07-2006, 10:09 AM
And why do they always have to fuck like they're mad at each other?
I think that kind of pron must be sexy to guys for one of three reasons:

1. They just don't know what does it for a girl
2. That kind of porn is pretty much all there is
3. Guys don't care what's going on as long as there are naked boobies

I just want to see pretty naked people making each other happy. Is that so wrong?

I couldn't agree more. I once went to an erotica site and read the entries (some were good, most were just ok--perhaps it's easier to film people fucking than it is to write well). There was a Q & A section to the site. Alot of basic sexual questions--and good, factual info was provided. So far, so good. I wrote in and asked for a suggestion re porn for someone whom porn turns off (that would be me). The reply raved about a new dvd, In The Garden Of The Shadows--how it starred this newcomer and was beautifully lit and filmed and the story was mesmerizing. Ooh, just up my alley. I bought it.

Well, it does indeed have some attractive people in it (well, I dislike large breasts, so other than that, she was very beautiful). The story was less than mesmerizing--the story was batshit insane. Yes, they were all wonderfully lit and the settings were gorgeous.

Thing is--it was STILL the man yelling at the girl, still the man grabbing her by her hair, still the man running the show, STILL with that godamned money shot.

Blech. No thanks. And this is one of the best? Meh. No thanks--my fantasies can outdo your porn film any day of the week.

So, here I am--$40 poorer and still no fan of porn. WHY can't we have something akin to Pride and Prejudice but that "goes all the way"? Why does it have to be no plot, no character development, just some man's idea of what women feel when they are excited sexually? (case in point: I know of no woman who licks her lips in the way depicted in porn-it's ridiculous).

Sorry, OT a bit.

I do have something to say to the OP. Whether you (or anyone here) feels that this woman should not be threatened by porn or that she should lose weight or just accept her husband as he is (notice that he doesn't accept her the way she is, apparently).....you are all entitled to your opinions and feelings.

None of them matter--this is an issue that needs to be resolved by the people immediately effected by it, ie the spouses. No one else really has a say in the dynamics, the resolution of the conflict, the ideal solution. Those are as idiosyncratic as couples themselves.

Guinastasia
03-07-2006, 10:25 AM
I'm curious. Where do you draw the line between romance novels and erotica? Is itsimply a matter of how well written it is? How explicet? How about erotica vs soft-core porn?


I think by "romance novels" I mean the old Harlequin "bodice rippers" that are marketed towards "housewives". Most of them are really cheesy and stupid and more likely to illicit giggles than arousal.

I don't know if you CAN draw a line, it's one of those "I know it when I see" it type of things.

Merijeek, I THINK he means those novelty card decks that have nudie pictures on them.

even sven
03-07-2006, 11:09 AM
I've never been able to grasp this concept. Is the idea that if enough people of authority tell you that sex is bad, then you believe them? Because speaking as a guy, that just does not compute. All the disapproval in the world cowers in fear from the unstoppable sex drive of a teenage boy

Trust me, teenaged girls go through the same thing.

The anti-sex social conditioning young women get doesn't destroy the sex response. It perverts it in to self-loathing and shame. Young women don't naturally undergo a sexually latent period as children- a toddler can have the same orgasms an adult woman experiences. This means girls getting scolded for masturbating as children learn a lesson that they will take in to adulthood. Since there is not as much open sex talk among girls, they never really learn much about what these feelings mean. And since masturbation is a bit more complicated for girls, and much more stigmatized, they don't learn what pleases them, much less how to communicate that to a parter. So they end up having sex with some oaf who hasn't a clue, when they don't have a clue themselves, so they conclude that sex must be a man's world. Meanwhile, they still have all these feelings, but have long learned to channel them instantly to shame. Did you know most women describe their genitals as "ugly"? Plenty of women couldn't draw a decent picture of what all there is down there. How are you supposed to have good sex when you've never had a chance to explore you body, learn it, and become comfortable in it?

Women have the same nerves as men. In written descriptions with identifying factors taken out, a woman's orgasm is indistinguishable from a man's. It's the same thing- but with potential for multiple orgasms and no refractory period. The only real difference between male and female sexual response is how they've been conditioned.

descamisado
03-07-2006, 11:27 AM
Even Dr. Laura said it was ok for a man to have a few nudie magazines. . . .

Marc

But she said just make damn sure those nudies don't depict other men. Now that's sick!!

kidchameleon
03-07-2006, 11:45 AM
I'm knid of wondering if the term 'hard-wired' is being abused here. Other than bath houses porn has been available to the common person for,what, 50 years? Maybe 100? I love my burritos and they've been around that long, but I don't think anyone is 'hardwired' for burritos.

Did anyone read Dear Abby yesterday? I thought it was headed toward material for this thread but then went a whole nother way....

Indygrrl
03-07-2006, 12:13 PM
The anti-sex social conditioning young women get doesn't destroy the sex response. It perverts it in to self-loathing and shame. Young women don't naturally undergo a sexually latent period as children- a toddler can have the same orgasms an adult woman experiences. This means girls getting scolded for masturbating as children learn a lesson that they will take in to adulthood. Since there is not as much open sex talk among girls, they never really learn much about what these feelings mean. And since masturbation is a bit more complicated for girls, and much more stigmatized, they don't learn what pleases them, much less how to communicate that to a parter. So they end up having sex with some oaf who hasn't a clue, when they don't have a clue themselves, so they conclude that sex must be a man's world. Meanwhile, they still have all these feelings, but have long learned to channel them instantly to shame. Did you know most women describe their genitals as "ugly"? Plenty of women couldn't draw a decent picture of what all there is down there. How are you supposed to have good sex when you've never had a chance to explore you body, learn it, and become comfortable in it?

That is true for so many women. Well said.

I don't know if I just got lucky or what, but none of that was my experience. It has always shocked me how sexually repressed a lot of women I've met are. And I don't mean that they're prudish, just that they don't quite "get it" when it comes to what a woman can get out of sex.

I give a lot of credit to my early experiences with masturbation. And I think the fact that I was always comfortable with myself is the reason I waited until almost 19 to have sex, and have had very fulfilling sex ever since.

Masturbation should be taught in school!!!

Evil Captor
03-07-2006, 12:22 PM
FWIW, I'm NOT talking about romance novels. I'm talking about decent written erotica. Romance novels are more for shits and giggles-who comes up with those ridiculous phrases?

And I'm saying there is no meaningful distinction to be made between erotica and some lines of romance novels (such as Harlequin's Blaze series -- but there are many others, some more "advanced" than Blaze).

Guinastasia
03-07-2006, 12:23 PM
I'm knid of wondering if the term 'hard-wired' is being abused here. Other than bath houses porn has been available to the common person for,what, 50 years? Maybe 100? I love my burritos and they've been around that long, but I don't think anyone is 'hardwired' for burritos.

Did anyone read Dear Abby yesterday? I thought it was headed toward material for this thread but then went a whole nother way....


Are you talking about the one where she caught her husband in bed with her brother?

Actually, porn has been around for a long time, most of it was amateur drawings and writings. The Victorians had a LOT of it-even photographs. You could find it if you looked for it.

even sven, dead on. You get that idea that "nice girls don't do that". It's not something that's even overt, it's just sort of in your sub-conscious, and you don't even realize it.

Evil Captor
03-07-2006, 12:25 PM
I don't.
I've read exactly three romance novels in my life-when I was trapped at my parent's house and had read everything else in sight.
That was over 25 years ago and I've never wanted to read another one.

Your impressions are a little outdated.

Lilairen
03-07-2006, 02:15 PM
I've never been able to grasp this concept. Is the idea that if enough people of authority tell you that sex is bad, then you believe them? Because speaking as a guy, that just does not compute. All the disapproval in the world cowers in fear from the unstoppable sex drive of a teenage boy.

I come away from my recent breakup with the impression that a certain sort of conservative anti-sex background can actually do a pretty impressive number on the sexuality of some guys.

Merijeek
03-07-2006, 03:26 PM
I come away from my recent breakup with the impression that a certain sort of conservative anti-sex background can actually do a pretty impressive number on the sexuality of some guys.

"Do a number" as in an explosion of sexual activity once they realize how much fun it can be (my experience with conserative anti-sex women backgrounders) or "Do a number" as in "can't get it up without assless chaps and a baby bonnet" (aka Bill O'reilly syndrome)?

-Joe

pokey
03-07-2006, 04:26 PM
Why does it have to be no plot, no character development, just some man's idea of what women feel when they are excited sexually? (case in point: I know of no woman who licks her lips in the way depicted in porn-it's ridiculous).
You know I don't mind at all that there's no plot and so on. I am female and I like mainstream porn and accept it for what it is. What makes it harder for me to find things I like is that the bottom line is that I am looking to identify with the female, not the male. I don't even need to see Mr. Darcy's dingaling, I just want to see things where the girl has fun and as much dignity as a naked person can have (that's pretty relative.) I just don't care how good and fancy that blowjob is unless I can see that it's good for the girl, and by the same token, some oral sex scene where a guy is doing something to a woman, I wouldn't even notice if he looked miserable. Or if I noticed, I wouldn't care. It's not who I'm identifying with. I only identify with my side. But I never seem to care a whole ton about woman's porn because I'm impatient with plots and the more they try to set up some story, the harder it is for me to suspend disbelief. I mean the more they are trying to act the greater the odds of crappy acting. I just want to see sex scenes where the female has a body that reminds me of me, or an exaggerated version of me, and where the sex at least approximates things that can get a female off. So mainstream porn is best for me but it takes a lot of looking and being disappointed before I find something that has the elements I want. And it's not because women are so picky. If the whole world of porn was girls shoving their crotches in someone's face whether he liked it or not and then triumpnantly squirting on them while they took it and grinned and shut the hell up about it, life would be pretty easy. At least my life would be. If you think about it, porn is like some big rainbow of male stuff from bad to nice and girls just have to look in between to see when a woman accidentally gets hers.

I don't know, women's porn is for some woman who's not me, and I'm coming from the other side of the dirtiness spectrum. But men just get a whole spectrum on a plate and they don't have to look too hard for it. They can go by mood and experiment and everything.

Some guys are bossy and selfish sometimes and when they feel like that they can just look at some porn and see zillions of guys being bossy and selfish with women and think, "ah yes, the universe is back in order, now I can get to work." Maybe if guys didn't have that, they'd do stuff like write to Dear Abby too.

Lilairen
03-07-2006, 04:34 PM
"Do a number" as in an explosion of sexual activity once they realize how much fun it can be (my experience with conserative anti-sex women backgrounders) or "Do a number" as in "can't get it up without assless chaps and a baby bonnet" (aka Bill O'reilly syndrome)?

Do a number as in, "Displays of sexual interest are so utterly fraught that it torpedoes his ability to respond". He's said, pretty much, that any circumstance under which some sort of sexual response is expected from him renders him incapable of coping.

As far as I can tell, we only had a sex life because we were a long-distance relationship, and so my unavailability made it safe for him to be into me the couple of times a year we saw each other, so long as I didn't stay too long. (I don't know whether he would agree; he did say that he could understand why it would look like that to me.)

Merijeek
03-07-2006, 04:56 PM
Do a number as in, "Displays of sexual interest are so utterly fraught that it torpedoes his ability to respond". He's said, pretty much, that any circumstance under which some sort of sexual response is expected from him renders him incapable of coping.

As far as I can tell, we only had a sex life because we were a long-distance relationship, and so my unavailability made it safe for him to be into me the couple of times a year we saw each other, so long as I didn't stay too long. (I don't know whether he would agree; he did say that he could understand why it would look like that to me.)

Ah. Intimacy = sex. Sex = Terror.

You so scary!

-Joe, how you doin?

HMS Irruncible
03-07-2006, 05:06 PM
"Do a number" as in an explosion of sexual activity once they realize how much fun it can be (my experience with conserative anti-sex women backgrounders) or "Do a number" as in "can't get it up without assless chaps and a baby bonnet" (aka Bill O'reilly syndrome)?

It is my public duty to point out here that "assless chaps" is a meaningless term as there is no such thing as "assed chaps" unless you're talking about an Englishman who lost his buttocks in the war.

Aeschines
03-07-2006, 06:46 PM
"Homosexuality is different from heterosexuality by definition" only because the sexes involved are different. Until you prove that homosexual relationships are functionally different, and that the people involved don't experience the same disconnects as in hetero relationships (hint: you can't, because they do) your premises about male/female relationships are easily falsified, as others have noted.Problem 1: S/he who posits must prove. I never talked about gays.

Problem 2: The argument is logically invalid. If you don't know why, then you shouldn't make the attempt. (I'll help: Reasoning that equivalence of consequents means equivalence of antecedents = big no no.)

Problem 3: My observations about asymmetrical and contradictory needs in heterosexual relationships are exactly that: direct observations. It is like trying to form a logical argument against the claim that strawberries are red.

Lilairen
03-07-2006, 07:29 PM
Problem 3: My observations about asymmetrical and contradictory needs in heterosexual relationships are exactly that: direct observations. It is like trying to form a logical argument against the claim that strawberries are red.

Unfortunately, from my perspective, you appear to be arguing the claim that strawberries are sort of brownish-black and disintegrate into slime on contact.

To which I can only say, "Well, if you only try the rotten ones ..."

Ensign Edison
03-07-2006, 07:38 PM
Problem 1: S/he who posits must prove. I never talked about gays.

Problem 2: The argument is logically invalid. If you don't know why, then you shouldn't make the attempt. (I'll help: Reasoning that equivalence of consequents means equivalence of antecedents = big no no.)

Problem 3: My observations about asymmetrical and contradictory needs in heterosexual relationships are exactly that: direct observations. It is like trying to form a logical argument against the claim that strawberries are red.

Problem Zero: you don't actually understand half of what you just tried to say.

If the disconnect in straight relationships is down to male/female differences, then identical disconnects should not be present in queer relationships. Yet they do. Yes, I understand your critique of my logic suggests that perhaps homosexuals have identical disconnects but for completely different reasons. If we were speaking of a world built on logic -- which is a cognitive tool, not a panacea -- I would say yes, that is possible. But it is clearly an absurd proposal. Of course queer couples don't just happen to display identical behavior to straight ones, but with completely different motivations, which maybe come from the extra 'gay' lobe in their brain that makes them not subject to the gender rules you propose. It's such an extraordinary claim it requires extraordinary evidence, and so far you've shown none at all.

Dear God in Heaven, if your last point means "I've seen it so I know it's true", you're in even worse mental shape than I assumed.

Ensign Edison
03-07-2006, 07:39 PM
Problem Zero: you don't actually understand half of what you just tried to say.

If the disconnect in straight relationships is down to male/female differences, then identical disconnects should not be present in queer relationships. Yet they do.

Yet they are, that is.

Guinastasia
03-07-2006, 08:38 PM
Problem 3: My observations about asymmetrical and contradictory needs in heterosexual relationships are exactly that: direct observations. It is like trying to form a logical argument against the claim that strawberries are red.


Your "observations" so far seem to be Dear Abby columns. :dubious:

RaftPeople
03-07-2006, 10:21 PM
Even Dr. Laura said it was ok for a man to have a few nudie magazines. . . .

The only problem with this statement is that Dr. Laura's credibility on this topic, or pretty much any topic, is about the same as one of those 8 balls that answers questions.

Ensign Edison
03-07-2006, 11:25 PM
The only problem with this statement is that Dr. Laura's credibility on this topic, or pretty much any topic, is about the same as one of those 8 balls that answers questions.

It is decidedly so.

asterion
03-07-2006, 11:28 PM
The only problem with this statement is that Dr. Laura's credibility on this topic, or pretty much any topic, is about the same as one of those 8 balls that answers questions.
Hey, now the 8-Ball did get one thing right when it told us that "Outlook not so good."

Superdude
03-08-2006, 01:28 AM
Hey, now the 8-Ball did get one thing right when it told us that "Outlook not so good."

Yeah. Made me switch browsers.

Voyager
03-08-2006, 01:59 AM
I think this is very true (that most porn is just poorly done), but what alternatives are there? Despite it being, as I understand it, an X billion dollar industry, apparently the stigma keeps people or companies of real quality from being involved. There are a few folks who put out some stuff with some thought behind it or effort put into the production of it, but not many. I much prefer some sort of story, some good acting, some decent lighting and music, some creativity behind the editing, and so forth, but I still want to see the explicit sex. If quality work isn't available, though, I'll take what is.

Its not the stigma. From the FAQ in the erotic films newsgroup, done by someone in the industry, it seems that they have found that low quality movies without a story sell as well as those with one - so the bad drives out the good. In the '70s, when there was just as much of a stigma as today, we had Devil in Miss Jones, Flesh Gordon, Debbie Does Dallas, and other movies with real stories.

Sex is sex, but stories last longer than five minutes.

Jotun
03-08-2006, 02:12 AM
There's nothing wrong with porn, as long as it doesn't become some kind of obsession.



I sure hope the 100 gigs of it on my computer doesn't count as an obsession. ;)

100 gigs? That's nothing!

I remember when I brought up that Holographic Data Storage might exceed 1.6 terabytes to some of the guys at work.

All five of us said, "That's a LOT of porn!" in unison. :D

HMS Irruncible
03-08-2006, 07:16 AM
The only problem with this statement is that Dr. Laura's credibility on this topic, or pretty much any topic, is about the same as one of those 8 balls that answers questions.
It's not a question of credibility but showing the opinion of someone who espouses a ultra-conservative, traditional, barefoot-and-pregnant, maternal-nazi stance. Her approval doesn't show that it's OK or not, just that it's a fairly mainstream belief.

HMS Irruncible
03-08-2006, 07:28 AM
What happens when you are watching porn that you actually do enjoy? Well-made "erotica" with two attractive people who seem to be having a great time etc. Now, there's no good reason I know to think that just because the women is starring in higher quality porn the women doesn't have drug/abuse issues and so my question is this. Do you still pity them?
That's a good point and I think it's all in the acting. You can't tell for sure when somebody is having pleasure, but you can sure tell when they aren't. To get money, many of us do things that we'd rather not, but usually not having sex with strangers on camera. That's sort of over the line for most people. So anyone having sex for reasons other than pleasure gets my pity, as well as speculation as to why they'd be forced to do this rather than, say, getting a typing job. From that point, it's just a question of asking "who is so desperate for money that they'd have sex to get it?" And while there are a few answers to that question, the most pedestrian and common one in our society is drugs (which is all the more likely considering how often these two "vices" are found together).

I don't doubt there are some hot nympho ladies who make themselves and the rest of us happy by doing what they like best, but I suspect these fortunate souls are in the minority. For that matter, I think there are relatively few people in all professions who get paid for doing what they enjoy. I don't see why the sex industry would be terribly different.

Ensign Edison
03-08-2006, 07:56 AM
That's a good point and I think it's all in the acting. You can't tell for sure when somebody is having pleasure, but you can sure tell when they aren't. To get money, many of us do things that we'd rather not, but usually not having sex with strangers on camera. That's sort of over the line for most people. So anyone having sex for reasons other than pleasure gets my pity, as well as speculation as to why they'd be forced to do this rather than, say, getting a typing job. From that point, it's just a question of asking "who is so desperate for money that they'd have sex to get it?" And while there are a few answers to that question, the most pedestrian and common one in our society is drugs (which is all the more likely considering how often these two "vices" are found together).

How about "Who doesn't think there's anything specially gross or immoral or unhealthy about having sex for money and it pays better than typing"? Or "all work is selling your body/soul/personality/time"? Your premise is based on the idea that everyone naturally feels like having sex for money is wrong, a broken, dysfunctional act. Yes, some people in the industry are there because they're too screwed up to be elsewhere, but those people are not the majority.

It seems to be very hard for a lot of you to wrap your head around the idea that maybe some people do it because they consider it a perfectly valid option for a profession. Most people don't feel that way, it's true. But there is a large subset of people who do, and many can be found in the various branches of the sex industry.

Evil Captor
03-08-2006, 08:04 AM
That's a good point and I think it's all in the acting. You can't tell for sure when somebody is having pleasure, but you can sure tell when they aren't. To get money, many of us do things that we'd rather not, but usually not having sex with strangers on camera. That's sort of over the line for most people. So anyone having sex for reasons other than pleasure gets my pity, as well as speculation as to why they'd be forced to do this rather than, say, getting a typing job. From that point, it's just a question of asking "who is so desperate for money that they'd have sex to get it?" And while there are a few answers to that question, the most pedestrian and common one in our society is drugs (which is all the more likely considering how often these two "vices" are found together).

I don't doubt there are some hot nympho ladies who make themselves and the rest of us happy by doing what they like best, but I suspect these fortunate souls are in the minority. For that matter, I think there are relatively few people in all professions who get paid for doing what they enjoy. I don't see why the sex industry would be terribly different.

Your logic is flawed and your knowledge of the sex industry is limited, but you are KINDA on the right track.

First of all the "drug-addled" shit is a favorite of the right, the notion that almost all women wh do porn are hard-core addicts who'd be stealing your TV to get drug money if they couldn't get the money through the video prostitution that such folk see porn as. Unless you've got a cite, I'm not buying it. I think it very possible that women who perform in porn use drugs, probably in about the same proportions as people who don't perform in porn, and for the same reasons -- recreationally.

First of all, try to wrap your head around the notion that there are people who do not feel exactly as you do about sex -- people who are not social conservatives. They think sex is great fun, but they're not "nymphos" as you put it. The opposite of "prude" is not "nympho," it's "sexually helathy person.") Now comes the hard part -- imagine that they think their viewpoint is as valid as yours. Now comes an even harder point -- imagine that you are young, female and attractive and have this different viewpoint, but you're not a whiz in school and don't have a rich daddy or boyfriend. Now the chance to make money doing porn comes along. Do you have to be a "nympho" to take it?

Working in porn, or a strip club or whatever just represent career opportunities for women -- granted, career opportunities that carry with them a great deal of baggage due to the prejudices of social conservatives.

Ensign Edison
03-08-2006, 08:10 AM
Thanks, EC, good post.

And one more thing: As for the idea that they're not "really" enjoying it all the time, nobody complains that their waitress isn't really feeling as cheerful as she's acting. People do their jobs to the best of their ability even when they have off days. It doesn't mean they're miserable or hate their work. It often just means they have a work ethic that is more important to them than their momentary mood.

I wonder if the concept of a porn actor with a work ethic can fit into the mental models most people here seem to have of the industry.

Tomcat
03-08-2006, 08:32 AM
Indygrrl, Hook, et al...

SDMB has its very own pornographer, abby, of the Ask The Pornographer (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=105888) fame. Her site gets many kudos for the women being into it and not drugged-out skanks...

Plus, while the internet is full of bad pr0n, there has also been a rise in the amateur sector...with some sites consisting of people at HOME uploading CLIPS of their doing the deed and DOTting the aye-yi-yi's - which seems to be COMpletely what you all are looking for.

-Tcat

eleanorigby
03-08-2006, 08:37 AM
I don't know, women's porn is for some woman who's not me, and I'm coming from the other side of the dirtiness spectrum. But men just get a whole spectrum on a plate and they don't have to look too hard for it. They can go by mood and experiment and everything.

Some guys are bossy and selfish sometimes and when they feel like that they can just look at some porn and see zillions of guys being bossy and selfish with women and think, "ah yes, the universe is back in order, now I can get to work." Maybe if guys didn't have that, they'd do stuff like write to Dear Abby too.

You raise some excellent points that I hadn't considered. I would like to see the guy enjoying himself (I am so sick of the macho shit--how insecure are men that they must have that reinforced, over and over and again--and that is not to say that treating a woman like shit in bed is particularly manly in the first place!). but for the rest of it, I could get into that as an alternative. I am no fan of porn, but if there were better stuff out there--I might become a consumer. I think you are definetly onto something with your last remark.

Re the OP's "letter". We have no idea what dynamic is going on in the marriage, no clue as to any health issues (on both parts-no-one here has postulated that maybe the man can only achieve erection with porn and can't get it up for his wife, for example), there may be outside pressures on both or one party--the list is almost endless. How much easier to just blame the "frigid" fat woman than to actually deal with the problems. How much easier to jack off to cyber Cindee and her Amazing Mouth than actually ask for what you need in bed.


Not to add flame to the fire, but if one partner is adamantly against something and the other partner insists on doing it--who gets to be the final arbiter of what is done? That is the real issue here, IMO--control of sexuality within the marriage.

Thoughts?

eleanorigby
03-08-2006, 08:41 AM
Working in porn, or a strip club or whatever just represent career opportunities for women -- granted, career opportunities that carry with them a great deal of baggage due to the prejudices of social conservatives.


I see your point and think that you may be right for the most part. but I disagree with your last bit there. I am far, far from a social conservative. This isn't just about outraged church going folks.

Would you want your daughter to go into the sex industry? Until every man can say proudly--my daughter/niece/sister does triple X videos, there's nothing that girl can't do!--I think the stigma is here to stay. It's more than drugs or risky behavior. I doubt that most men want their" family females" to appear on screen one day.

jlzania
03-08-2006, 08:45 AM
Not to add flame to the fire, but if one partner is adamantly against something and the other partner insists on doing it--who gets to be the final arbiter of what is done? That is the real issue here, IMO--control of sexuality within the marriage.

Thoughts?
I don't 'get' why one's sexual partner would insist on doing anything that his/her
partner was adamantly against but maybe I'm just dense.
I always thought the whole point of sex was for both people involved to experience pleasure and I don't see how forcing someone to do something they find extremely distasteful could make either person happy.

Ensign Edison
03-08-2006, 09:13 AM
I see your point and think that you may be right for the most part. but I disagree with your last bit there. I am far, far from a social conservative. This isn't just about outraged church going folks.

Would you want your daughter to go into the sex industry? Until every man can say proudly--my daughter/niece/sister does triple X videos, there's nothing that girl can't do!--I think the stigma is here to stay. It's more than drugs or risky behavior. I doubt that most men want their" family females" to appear on screen one day.

You're right - lots of liberal people have outmoded views about the sex industry too.

Listen, Ms. Igby, you know you're my girl, in a platonic, non-threatening sense. But to ask that question, you have to still be working in a framework of Puritan sexual mores. I would like for my daughter to get a job in which she is well-treated, well-paid, and happy with her work. If she wants to work in the sex industry but has trouble finding such conditions, the answer is not to abolish the industry, but fix it. It is absolutely broken in many ways. But one of those ways is not that it's populated by broken people. Like professional athletes, it's true that burnout can be deady for a sex worker. But most don't show up at the party with one foot already in the grave, or the asylum.

Ahah, someone says, he's saying that the industry hurts people! You bet your sweet fucking ass, or whatever orifice you're peddling. My argument is not that the industry is a happy shiny fun time for pretty candy people. I believe strongly that the rights of sex workers are neglected...and I also believe this is largely because of the very attitudes we're patiently trying to chip away at here.

Finally, "there's a stigma" is never a reason not to do something if it's something you have a right to do. I'm going to stay calm here because this kind of pushes my big red button of rage sometimes, and I don't want to hulk out on you, because I think you're good people. But that's kinda what my mom said to me when I first tried to come out (thirteen, big mistake). "It's not that it bothers me, or that it's wrong, it's just that you'll get hurt because other people think it's wrong." (She also once said "I want you to be happy, but I want you to be heterosexual and happy).

Now, being queer is not like having any job; obviously there's just no comparison. One is inherent and the other isn't even permanent. (Queerness may not be always inherent and permanent, of course, but that's another thread). But what the fuck kind of reason is that for anything? "I disagree with most people about X, so I'm going to cow to their opinion". If my daughter was a proud sex worker, I'd be proud for her, you bet.

You say " Until every man can say proudly--my daughter/niece/sister does triple X videos, there's nothing that girl can't do!--I think the stigma is here to stay." There was a time when people thought men would never let women do anything so outrageous as vote, or have jobs. The opinions of men still rule the world, but women are increasingly better at overruling them.

And yeah, if everybody thinks they have to keep quiet because everybody else is keeping quiet, you're right, the stigma is here to stay. That's part of how injustice breeds, you know. The fear of people like my mother, who don't hate gay people but don't want anybody to know there's one in the family (there's four in the family, sorry mom), are what holds us back more than a hundred Fred Phelpses. Or the parents who tell the neighbors little Suzie is an LPN in Houston instead of an anal queen in LA, because they love her, but she's dirty now. Even though the only difference between most sex workers and many, many other people is quantitative, not qualitative.

Lots of people have sex with people they don't love for lots of reasons. One of them is money. That's part of what people object to -- but I think the big part* is that they're doing it where everyone can see, with the lights on, as if there was nothing wrong with it at all.

*given the enormous number of questionable but socially acceptable professions

bup
03-08-2006, 09:28 AM
You know I don't mind at all that there's no plot and so on. I am female and I like mainstream porn and accept it for what it is. What makes it harder for me to find things I like is that the bottom line is that I am looking to identify with the female, not the male. I don't even need to see Mr. Darcy's dingaling, I just want to see things where the girl has fun and as much dignity as a naked person can have (that's pretty relative.)I'm a guy, and that's my problem with mainstream porn too. I don't even look at the guy; I don't need/want to see him coming on her face - I want to see her have real orgasms.

Evil Captor
03-08-2006, 09:41 AM
I see your point and think that you may be right for the most part. but I disagree with your last bit there. I am far, far from a social conservative. This isn't just about outraged church going folks.

They're kinda the engine that drives things, though.

Would you want your daughter to go into the sex industry? Until every man can say proudly--my daughter/niece/sister does triple X videos, there's nothing that girl can't do!--I think the stigma is here to stay. It's more than drugs or risky behavior. I doubt that most men want their" family females" to appear on screen one day.

If I had a daughter, I wouldn't announce proudly that the she did XXX videos, any more than I'd announce proudly that she flipped burgers for a living. While I don't think there's anything wrong with having sex, I don't think that it represents the pinnacle of human achievement, though it may well be the most fun thing you can do at any given time. I'd generally try to get my daughter interested in more interesting ways of making a living, if I could.

I also think when you trot out this old canard about "Would you want your daughter to do XXX for a living?" you're subtly bringing the whole incest taboo thing into play. That is, if I had an adult daughter (or son) I would not want to know a whole hell of a lot about their sex lives, whether they're videotaped or not. It would squick me big time. I'd rather let them have that to themselves, thank you very much. And a large part of the "No" most folks would give to the thought of their daughter doing XXX resides in knowing too much about their daughters' sex life. The main thing I'd be concerned about wrt my daughter's sex life is that she doesn't ge treated like shit by anyone, whether that is her fiancee or her co-star in a XXX film. I'd much rather she have pleasant sex with a lot of men who don't immediately intend to marry her, than have one relationship with one of those obsessive stalker/killer guys.

I do think the social stigma about XXX is slowly going away, though I am sure it will take quite awhile for it to be negligible in its effect on society. It used to be that for many families a daughter who so much as appeared in Playboy would have to be disowned. Nowadays many parents can accept that their kid appeared nude in Playboy.

Are you sure you're as mainstream as you think you are?

And finally, what the FUCK has the right ever proposed for dealing with people who work in the sex industry other than, "The beatings will continue until morale improves?" Isn't an attitude of accepting people in the sex industry, of integrating them into society so they can work safely and healthily and live normal lives, a MUCH healthier response than the kind of crap the right generally gets up to?

eleanorigby
03-08-2006, 09:42 AM
I don't 'get' why one's sexual partner would insist on doing anything that his/her
partner was adamantly against but maybe I'm just dense.
I always thought the whole point of sex was for both people involved to experience pleasure and I don't see how forcing someone to do something they find extremely distasteful could make either person happy.


But as that principle applies to this thread--if one partner (I am removing the stereotyped roles here) is heavily into porn and the other partner finds that a turn OFF--who "wins"? How is this resolved? That is my question.




Ensign -I disagree that these are Puritan mores. The Puritans most likely would have stoned anyone that even came close to demonstrating sexuality the way it is today in "polite" society!

If I understand your point, you want to legitimize the sex industry, improve working conditions for those in it (I am assuming that would mean basic health care and standardized disease testing etc), and de-stigmatize it. IMO, that would be all to the good.


But. I have to keep coming back to BUT, because IMO, there is a titillation factor here, a "naughtiness" about porn that I think appeals to alot of people. IMO alot of men like to have their wives decent, upright etc and their fantasies be the dirty vixens. Not all men, by any means. Not ONLY men, either. I can't help but think that if sex shops become like Bed, Bath and Beyonds, all immaculate white and "have a nice day!" that the "thrill" will go out of it for a lot of people. I could be completely wrong. I am somewhat limited in my experience of the sex industry! (well, I did see hookers in the windows in Amsterdam a long time ago) :)

I'm not saying that there couldn't be places that don't make it a hygienic white bread experience--pick your pleasure etc. But I also don't see Dutch dads easing back after dinner relating stories about their daughter's rise from hand jobs to blow jobs and how she is hungry for the top spot --threesomes with the Prime Minister or whatever. (aren't most of the prostitutes in Holland now Indonesian anyway?)

My very long point is that there is more to this phenomenom than just de-stigmatizing it, IMO. I don't know all the elements, to be sure, but improving the worker's lot, while a needed thing, is not the only solution.

Have to go out now. Back later. Hope this makes sense.

eleanorigby
03-08-2006, 09:46 AM
Evil Captor--I never thought of incest, truly. I am thinking of men standing around discussing their kids. Larry's daughter just got her MBA, Dan's is in the Peace Corp; Henry's already a grandpa, and Tom's?


I just dont' see "Tom" stating with pride--hey, Shandy's the star of 3 porn films.

I don't think I'm out of the mainstream--come to upper middle class suburbia--I am looked at askance if I suggest a book about lesbianism in my book group!

Evil Captor
03-08-2006, 09:50 AM
I'm a guy, and that's my problem with mainstream porn too. I don't even look at the guy; I don't need/want to see him coming on her face - I want to see her have real orgasms.

I have read that although almost all guys enjoy porn, the bulk of the porn consumed is consumed by a small minority of guys for whom being porn consumers is their fundamental sexuality. That is, whereas a normal guy might own a dozen or so tapes or maybe rent one or two a month, these guys own hundreds of tapes and rent six or eight a day, 7 days a week. Read True Video Porn Clerk Confessions (http://www.improvisation.ws/mb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4475) to learn more about this divide. They are the ones who are demanding the "come on her face" thing and the business of slapping women and choking them (with a cock) during oral sex. I think if the market were dominated by more "normal" guys you'd see a lot less of this shit.

Merijeek
03-08-2006, 10:33 AM
Evil Captor--I never thought of incest, truly. I am thinking of men standing around discussing their kids. Larry's daughter just got her MBA, Dan's is in the Peace Corp; Henry's already a grandpa, and Tom's?


I just dont' see "Tom" stating with pride--hey, Shandy's the star of 3 porn films.

I don't think I'm out of the mainstream--come to upper middle class suburbia--I am looked at askance if I suggest a book about lesbianism in my book group!

Well, depends on which side you want to go.

Is Henry's kid fourteen?

Anyways, you can skip the whole "incest" angle by changing "daughter" to "wife". Who wants their wife starring in Bitches with Big Boobs?

-Joe, likes porn

Ensign Edison
03-08-2006, 11:00 AM
You know, it just occured to me that the fact that the question always seems to be about hypothetical daughters in the industry, never sons, probably tells us everything we need to know about where these attitudes are coming from.

bup
03-08-2006, 11:11 AM
That is, whereas a normal guy might own a dozen or so tapes or maybe rent one or two a month, these guys own hundreds of tapes and rent six or eight a day, 7 days a week. Read True Video Porn Clerk Confessions (http://www.improvisation.ws/mb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4475) to learn more about this divide. Don't need to. I know the woman who wrote it.

Merijeek
03-08-2006, 11:18 AM
You know, it just occured to me that the fact that the question always seems to be about hypothetical daughters in the industry, never sons, probably tells us everything we need to know about where these attitudes are coming from.

Oh, that's nothing special or new.

Daddy's proud when his son is the town stud. When his daughter is the town slut, however, it's a whole different game.

Like it or not, that's just how things function right now.

-Joe

Ensign Edison
03-08-2006, 11:25 AM
Like it or not, that's just how things function right now.

So you advocate what? "That's just how it is right now" usually means "so sit down and shut up about it". Or perhaps "There's nothing you can do about it anyway". The first is reprehensible to suggest, and the second completely false.

kimera
03-08-2006, 12:05 PM
To get money, many of us do things that we'd rather not, but usually not having sex with strangers on camera. That's sort of over the line for most people. So anyone having sex for reasons other than pleasure gets my pity, as well as speculation as to why they'd be forced to do this rather than, say, getting a typing job. From that point, it's just a question of asking "who is so desperate for money that they'd have sex to get it?"

Have you seen how much money is involved in the porn industry? I know a girl who runs her own website. It's "non-nude tease site" which means she does everything but completely expose her bare genitals and breasts. She also sells clothing from her sets on adult auction websites and does tease webcam shows for her website subscribers. It's her only job, she does about an hour or two worth of work a day, and after four years she's made enough to buy her own house.

A friend of mine does nude photos. She's worked with Suicide Girls and other adult websites. All she does is pose naked but she gets 200-300 an hour. If I want to, I can earn enough money to pay off an entire semester of college simply by taking off my clothes for a day. Can you imagine how much I would make doing porn?

Aeschines
03-08-2006, 12:26 PM
If the disconnect in straight relationships is down to male/female differences, then identical disconnects should not be present in queer relationships. Yet they do.Who says they are identical? S/he who posits must prove. I don't know which of the 36 strategies it is to try drag me into an argument about gayness (while the original argument sits peacefully idle), but it's one of them. Yes, I understand your critique of my logic suggests that perhaps homosexuals have identical disconnects but for completely different reasons.Good, then you understand that your logic is fucked and your point completely irrelevent.If we were speaking of a world built on logic -- which is a cognitive tool, not a panacea -- I would say yes, that is possible.Huh? You seem totally out of your depth on SDMB, which is neither a compliment to you nor saying much for the board itself.But it is clearly an absurd proposal.Absurd or not, it's not my proposal.Of course queer couples don't just happen to display identical behavior to straight ones, but with completely different motivations, which maybe come from the extra 'gay' lobe in their brain that makes them not subject to the gender rules you propose. It's such an extraordinary claim it requires extraordinary evidence, and so far you've shown none at all.You can't pull that line on someone who hasn't made a claim, dear child.Dear God in Heaven, if your last point means "I've seen it so I know it's true", you're in even worse mental shape than I assumed.Uh, that is pretty much how we know what is true: We see it. Or use logic (you know, that non-panacea thing), or believe credible sources. You, however, seem to have a whole 'nother path to the truth that leads you to many different and interesting conclusions.

Merijeek
03-08-2006, 12:29 PM
So you advocate what? "That's just how it is right now" usually means "so sit down and shut up about it". Or perhaps "There's nothing you can do about it anyway". The first is reprehensible to suggest, and the second completely false.

Uh..right.

What are you doing to make things better, and what positive effects have you had so far?

-Joe

Ensign Edison
03-08-2006, 12:29 PM
...dear child...

The odds that you're a virgin just went up even higher.

Ensign Edison
03-08-2006, 12:32 PM
Uh..right.

What are you doing to make things better, and what positive effects have you had so far?

-Joe

I've been involved with sex-worker-rights activism and debate for half my life. And things are starting to get better, thanks for asking. You can take your cynical ignorance and shove it up your apathetic ass.

Aeschines
03-08-2006, 12:34 PM
The odds that you're a virgin just went up even higher.I'm married with my own 6-month-old child, who apprently is already far more mentally developed than you are.

Fuck off.

Ensign Edison
03-08-2006, 12:39 PM
The odds that you're a virgin just went up even higher.

And I'm tempted to let it go at that, but I rarely can do so, because I cling to this weird belief that everyone is educable.

I can tell you're new at this rational thinking game, so I'm going to slow down a little. The first thing we have to deal with is this thing where you think because your personal experience verifies your conclusion, the conclusion must be sound. Do you understand what I mean by that? "I've only seen men who like sex more than women, therefore most men like sex more than women". That is the gist of your claim, and it's laughable irrational, for someone who's trying to use 'logic' like a chainsaw instead of a scalpel. So let's just slow down and see if we can get on the same page about this first, because it's at the base of your faulty thinking.

Syntropy
03-08-2006, 12:51 PM
Uh, that is pretty much how we know what is true: We see it. Or use logic (you know, that non-panacea thing), or believe credible sources. You, however, seem to have a whole 'nother path to the truth that leads you to many different and interesting conclusions.
Eh. Yes and no. That's how it is to a lesser extent than it was, say 50 years ago. When it comes to sex, we don't make clear, across the board advances because our society (at least in the US) started off with a rather fucked up, unhealthy view of sex. A lot of the taboos still exist because of religion or social mores, or just because we fear change. Society feeds women a very psychotic set of sexual standards to live up to.
Be sexy, be who you are, love your body, but this is the standard you must live up to: 15lbs underweight and perfect in ways you will probably never acheive.
Men are attracted to this, but nice girls don't do that, so you shouldn't.
Be sexually open, but only in this capacity, because anything beyond these boundaries (varying from person to person) is perverted.
If you're raised at all religously, sex is discouraged except with your husband, so the feelings you're having are sins against God and wrong.

Is it any wonder we have a rather fucked up view of sex? All things being equal, it'd be easier to be a man. You guys are allowed to want it, encouraged to want it, it's healthy for you and you don't need an excuse.

Aeschines
03-08-2006, 01:03 PM
And I'm tempted to let it go at that, but I rarely can do so, because I cling to this weird belief that everyone is educable.You are definitely not the one to preach. Your posts have been rife with non-sequiturs and logical leaps and general idiocy. Plus you just seem like a dick.I can tell you're new at this rational thinking game, so I'm going to slow down a little.Oh fuck you.The first thing we have to deal with is this thing where you think because your personal experience verifies your conclusion, the conclusion must be sound. Do you understand what I mean by that? "I've only seen men who like sex more than women, therefore most men like sex more than women". That is the gist of your claim,Not even close. When I said that the asymmetrical needs thing was based on "direct observation," apparently you jumped to the conclusion that this was my own pet theory. But I had already cited John Gray, so I guess you ignored that.

Look, it's a political topic. You apprently want to believe that men and women have the same brains and the same minds. Hard laboratory science goes against that belief at least to some degree.and it's laughable irrational, for someone who's trying to use 'logic' like a chainsaw instead of a scalpel.It's a chainsaw panacea.So let's just slow down and see if we can get on the same page about this first, because it's at the base of your faulty thinking.What a tool you are.

eleanorigby
03-08-2006, 01:21 PM
You know, it just occured to me that the fact that the question always seems to be about hypothetical daughters in the industry, never sons, probably tells us everything we need to know about where these attitudes are coming from.

I gave daughters as an example because I am female. All of my points could apply to men as well (brothers, sons, nephews etc).

Merijeek
03-08-2006, 01:23 PM
I've been involved with sex-worker-rights activism and debate for half my life. And things are starting to get better, thanks for asking. You can take your cynical ignorance and shove it up your apathetic ass.

So, when's the victory party, then? I'll bet you can get a "Mission Accomplished" banner for cheap.

Notice how you've managed to be an antagonistic flaming asshole towards at least two people in this thread so far?

-Joe

Merijeek
03-08-2006, 01:25 PM
The odds that you're a virgin just went up even higher.

Oops. Make that three people.

-Joe

Evil Captor
03-08-2006, 02:14 PM
Oops. Make that three people.

-Joe

Well, to be fair, Joe, I think you poked him a little hard with that ad-hominemish "What have you done, what orgs do you lead?" question. It's not like you have to have done something substantive in the real world to be entitled to an opinion on a topic. If that were so, this place wouldn't be NEARLY as active ...

Point is, you can't complain at being poked back when you start the poking.

Ensign Edison
03-08-2006, 03:09 PM
What a tool you are.

You're a grown man who calls other adults "dear child" in the middle of arguments and I'm a tool?

Lilairen
03-08-2006, 03:10 PM
But I had already cited John Gray, so I guess you ignored that.

You meant that to be serious? Your cite is the "Let me convince you that there's a basic problem in human interactions so I can make a lot of money shilling solutions" industry?

Ensign Edison
03-08-2006, 03:14 PM
Notice how you've managed to be an antagonistic flaming asshole towards at least two people in this thread so far?

-Joe

Well, that's good, at least. I'd hate to shoot for antagonistic flaming asshole and fall short at, say, just a slightly vexed and lukewarm buttcheek.

Miller
03-08-2006, 03:27 PM
You know, "Lukewarm Buttcheek" would make for a spectacularly bad band name.

Merijeek
03-08-2006, 03:41 PM
Well, to be fair, Joe, I think you poked him a little hard with that ad-hominemish "What have you done, what orgs do you lead?" question. It's not like you have to have done something substantive in the real world to be entitled to an opinion on a topic. If that were so, this place wouldn't be NEARLY as active ...

Point is, you can't complain at being poked back when you start the poking.

I rarely complain about being poked. That's life.

However, when accepting the fact that the status quo is, in fact, the status quo means that one is either 'suggesting something reprehensible or stating complete falsehoods, well, that's bullshit.

However, since Our Hero here has obviously either solved this problem or made great strides, I'm sure there's some demonstrable progress that has occurred. Especially since someone insists that a positive change can be made - someone so certain must have some great evidence considering they've supposedly spent "half their life" involved as an activist.

-Joe

Ensign Edison
03-08-2006, 03:50 PM
I rarely complain about being poked. That's life.

However, when accepting the fact that the status quo is, in fact, the status quo means that one is either 'suggesting something reprehensible or stating complete falsehoods, well, that's bullshit.

If you say you meant something else, I believe you and withdraw the implication. I did ask what you meant to advocate.

I have no idea what the next part means. Are you saying I'm wrong and that strides toward sex workers' rights haven't been made in recent history, largely as a result of activism?

Inigo Montoya
03-08-2006, 05:49 PM
Count me as one who can't understand why a married man who has a healthy married life feels the need to masturbate.

Because being married doesn't mean you have a synchronized sex drive. It doesn't mean you'll both want sex just as much, at the same times. Should a man divorce his wife just because he'd like to have sex more often than she does ?I don't mean to be a One Trick (heh) Pony here, but I have an interesting perspective on this. My estranged and I have known a rather spartain sex life for many years. I figured it was because her drive had just naturaly dropped off-neither of us is particularly unattractive. Certainly not "bucke of cold water on the 'nads" unattractive. So I just kinda did without and had some reliable websites memorized to kind of cool the engines from time to time. Never turned her down on the rare occasion she wanted the best of me, and never turned to another person. When she took her lover...like rabbits, the two of them. So aparently there was an underlying communication problem (we didn't/couldn't) that had really cooled things off. The marriage was, in most other respects, a healthy one.

As for the OP? Yeah, it's a case of the ignorant leading the stupid, but what can you do?

Aeschines
03-08-2006, 06:37 PM
You're a grown man who calls other adults "dear child" in the middle of arguments and I'm a tool?You're a tool because of your overall cluessness combined with an outlandish and swaggering confidence--not because you used one phrase I didn't like.

Miller
03-08-2006, 06:45 PM
You're a tool because of your overall cluessness combined with an outlandish and swaggering confidence...

Now that's what I call ironic.

HMS Irruncible
03-08-2006, 06:57 PM
When she took her lover...like rabbits, the two of them. So aparently there was an underlying communication problem (we didn't/couldn't) that had really cooled things off. The marriage was, in most other respects, a healthy one.
But it should be obvious that in the chemistry department, the non-spouse by definition is favored by the novelty factor and a complete absence of domestic baggage. Not wishing ill on anyone but check back in on the fortunate couple in 5 years or so; if they are still together, chances are it won't be "like rabbits" anymore.

Aeschines
03-08-2006, 07:43 PM
Now that's what I call ironic.You just doubled the irony.

HMS Irruncible
03-08-2006, 07:53 PM
You just doubled the irony.
OK... so does that make him rubber, or glue? Just trying to keep it straight.

Aeschines
03-08-2006, 08:00 PM
OK... so does that make him rubber, or glue? Just trying to keep it straight.He's a double rubber, double glue sandwich. Suitable for pr0n.

Malacandra
03-09-2006, 04:05 AM
You know, "Lukewarm Buttcheek" would make for a spectacularly bad band name.

Or a dysfunctional one-book character in a Pratchett novel. :D

betenoir
03-10-2006, 04:10 AM
Ok, have to admit I haven't read most of the thread....mostly because my connectioning screwed and I think I'm going to get thrown off again (meaning no more porn tonight).

But I wanted to respond.

I wanted SO much to agree with you.

I've seen similar letters....mostly because I read Christian web sites. Porn is a serious plaugue on the land and a major problem in marriage. I can't say how many "my husband is addicted to porn!!!" articles I've seen.

But honestly.

Your husband is not looking at porn because you are overweight, or because there is ANYTHING wrong with you. he is looking at porn because you note, men look at porn. Men like to look at (various) naked women. They also like to see people fucking (come to think of itsoi do I).

I''d also like to mention that my SO looks at porn (often with me....remind me I was going to send him some i particularly liked....but his main complaint it the girls are to skinny....not like me. I believe comment at one point was "there's an ass not even worth spanking".

What else? ok, MOST men look at porn. Some (no doubt more than .1%) don't....that doesn't make them weirdos. Sexuality takes many forms.

Conseling CAN help. Assuming the conselour doesn't think like the advice colmnist. But it can help people understand each other.

Monogomy is not natural. It IS however a choice. And cheating on your spouse when yuo've agreed not is a nasty thing to do. On the other hand it has nothing to do with porn.

Anyway....I expect this has all been covered in the last 5 pages :o but I had to say it.

Before my connection disappears.


I REALLY wanted to agree with you. Oh well.

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