Updating Harry Stein's Ethnic Team Lists (Esquire, 1976)

[dougie_monty]

In 1977 The Book of Lists printed "Harry Stein's All-Time All-Star Argument Starter (5 Ethnic Baseball Teams)," which had been printed in Esquire the year before.
This included the Latins, the Poles, the Jews, the Blacks, and the Italians.
On the Jewish team:
Righthanded pitcher, Ed Reulbach
Lefthanded pitcher, Sandy Koufax :)
Relief pitcher, Larry Sherry
Catcher, Johnny Kling*
First base, Hank Greenberg
Second base, Rod Carew
Shortstop, Buddy Myer
Third base, Al Rosen
Left field, Sid Gordon
Center field, Benny Kauff
Right field, George Stone
[Manager, "Lena" Blackburne; my choice]
*After the article appeared in Esquire, a reader wrote in, "Scratch Johnny Kling as the catcher. His wife was Jewish but he wasn't. Put in Harry Danning."
I could put the others in (as well as the Irish and German teams), but I thought I'd just key in the Jewish team and see how well that goes over with the Teeming Millions first: Perhaps there are ethnic players since the publication of Stein's article who might pass muster better than the ones Stein listed (another reader questioned the listing of Cesar Cedeno in right field, saying Minnie Minoso was a better choice).

[Manduck]

Shawn Green in right field instead of that Stone guy.

[astro]

According to the link below Rod Carew was not a Jew either

NY Yankels: My All-Time, All-Star Jewish Team (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.sport.baseball/browse_thread/thread/c513788733e507f7/ca40a936134d56ea?lnk=st&q=jewish+all+star+team+baseball&rnum=1&hl=en#ca40a936134d56ea)

Here's an Italian all star team (http://www.athomeplate.com/italianamerican.shtml)


Here's a Latin All Star Team (http://www.sportingnews.com/archives/sports2000/players/169115.html)

[dougie_monty]

I followed those links. They're impressive. :)
FWIW, here are the other four teams Stein gave in the article. Quite a few of Stein's choices were the same as those in the links. :)
LATIN TEAM
Right-handed pitcher, Juan Marichal (Dominican)
Left-handed pitcher, Mike Cuellar (Cuban)
Relief pitcher, Luis Arroyo (Puerto Rican)
Catcher, Manny Sanguillen (Panamanian)
First base, Orlando Cepeda (Puerto Rican)
Second base, Bobby Ávila (Mexican)
Shortstop, Luis Aparicio (Venezuelan)
Third base, Tony Perez (Cuban)
Left field, Tony Oliva (Cuban)
Center field, Cesar Cedeño (Dominican)
Right field, Roberto Clemente (Puerto Rican)
POLISH TEAM
Right-handed pitcher, Stan Coveleski
Left-handed pitcher, Harry Coveleski
Relief pitcher, Ron Perranoski
Catcher, Carl Sawatski
First base, Ted Kluszewski
Second base, Bill Mazeroski
Shortstop, Tony Kubek
Third base, Whitey Kurowski
Left field, Carl Yastrzemski
Center field, Al Simmons [born Aloysius Szymanski]
Right field, Stan Musial
AFRICAN-AMERICAN TEAM
Right-handed pitcher, Bob Gibson
Left-handed pitcher, Vida Blue
Relief pitcher, Satchel Paige
Catcher, Roy Campanella
First base, Frank Robinson
Second base, Joe Morgan
Shortstop, Ernie Banks
Third base, Jackie Robinson
Left field, Lou Brock
Center field, Willie Mays
Right field, Henry Aaron
ITALIAN TEAM
Right-handed pitcher, Eddie Cicotte
Left-handed pitcher, Johnny Antonelli
Relief pitcher, Dave Giusti
Catcher, Yogi Berra
First base, Dolph Camilli
Second base, Tony Lazzeri
Shortstop, Phil Rizzuto
Third base, Joe Torre
Left field, Dom DiMaggio
Center field, Joe DiMaggio
Right field, Carl Furillo
My managers are Al Lopez (Castilian); Ed Lopat [born Lopatynski]; Frank Robinson; Yogi Berra.
More to come; to save space, Esquire's editors left the Irish team out; a reader suggested a German team.
P. S. Why do you say Rod Carew isn't Jewish?

[samclem]

I think this one belongs somewhere other than GQ.

Let's try IMHO.

samclem

[Moirai]

P. S. Why do you say Rod Carew isn't Jewish?


Yeah. I am pretty sure he is Jewish. Granted, he could play on several other teams too...

[Moirai]

Well slap my ass and call me Sally... Apparently Rod did not convert, contrary to numerous assumptive reports over the years (and Adam Sandler- an overeager baseball fan, I guess!).

Easy mistake to make, as he has an historical aversion to speaking with the media, although that lessened somewhat after Michelle died- she urged him to speak out about the lack of minorities on bone marrow donor registries.

[Frank]

Yeah. I am pretty sure he is Jewish. Granted, he could play on several other teams too...
My understanding is that though Carew married a Jewish woman and allowed his children to be raised in that religion, he never actually converted. Could be wrong.

[samclem]

Carew publicly said that he was "probably" going to convert. This was in 1975. I can find NO newspaper article that says he ever did.

[dougie_monty]

Well, all I have about Carew is Stein's article...I don't know what information he had.
The magazine left out Stein's Irish team, because of space limitations. A reader wrote in with the German team. Here they are:
IRISH TEAM
Right-handed pitcher, Joe McGinnity
Left-handed pitcher, Dave McNally
Relief pitcher, Don McMahon
Catcher, Mickey Cochrane
First base, Jimmy Foxx
Second base, Eddie Collins
Shortstop, Joe Cronin
Third base, Jimmy Collins
Left field, Lefty O’Doul
Center field, Willie Keeler
Right field, Tommy Holmes
(Manager: John McGraw)

GERMAN TEAM
Right-handed pitcher, Bob Feller
Left-handed pitcher, Warren Spahn
Relief pitcher, Hoyt Wilhelm
Catcher, Jerry Grote
First base, Lou Gehrig
Second base, Charlie Gehringer
Shortstop, Honus Wagner
Third base, Mike Schmidt
Left field, Pete Reiser
Center field, Harry Heilmann
Right field, Babe Ruth
Manager: Casey Stengel

[NDP]

Stein's original lists are over 30 years old so there certainly are some interesting additions that could be made. I would suggest a few but it's late. However, I do think that on the All-Latin team, you could replace Manny Sanguillen with Ivan Rodriguez (http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/rodriiv01.shtml).

Any other suggestions?

[Beware of Doug]

The magazine left out Stein's Irish team, because of space limitations....or perhaps the possibility of turning the All-Time All-Star Argument Starter into the All-Time All-Star Donnybrook Starter.
A reader wrote in with the German team.Presumably from Argentina, or a pigeon cote somewhere in Brooklyn.

Seems to me we've left out one important (though maybe not ethnic) group in baseball: rednecks. My only question is, does Cobb go in center field or manage?

[Sal Ammoniac]

I'd put Ted Williams in the outfield of the Latin team. He was half Mexican. Hell, you could put half of Ted Williams in that outfield and still probably come out ahead.

[bordelond]

My managers are Al Lopez (Castilian); Ed Lopat [born Lopatynski]; Frank Robinson; Yogi Berra.

Let Yogi Berra be the third base coach for the Italians -- Tony LaRussa has a better managerial resume.

[bordelond]

I'd put Ted Williams in the outfield of the Latin team. He was half Mexican. Hell, you could put half of Ted Williams in that outfield and still probably come out ahead.
Williams was either one-quarter European Spanish or one-quarter Mexican on his mother's side (online sources seem to differ).

[dougie_monty]

How about:
Right-handed pitcher, Dizzy Dean (Lucas, AR)
Left-Handed pitcher, Ron Guidry (Carencero, LA)
Relief pitcher, Hugh Casey (Atlanta, GA)
Catcher, Bill Dickey (Bastrop, LA)
First base, Bill Terry (Atlanta, GA)
Second base, Rogers Hornsby (Winters, TX)
Shortstop, Luke Appling (High Point, NC)
Third base, Brooks Robinson (Little Rock, AR)
Left field, Joe Jackson (Brandon Mills, SC)
Center field, Ty Cobb (Narrows, Banks Co., GA)
Right field, Mel Ott (Gretna, LA)
Manager: Alvin Dark (Comanche, OK)

[bordelond]

How about:
Right-handed pitcher, Dizzy Dean (Lucas, AR)
Left-Handed pitcher, Ron Guidry (Carencero, LA)
Relief pitcher, Hugh Casey (Atlanta, GA)
Catcher, Bill Dickey (Bastrop, LA)
First base, Bill Terry (Atlanta, GA)
Second base, Rogers Hornsby (Winters, TX)
Shortstop, Luke Appling (High Point, NC)
Third base, Brooks Robinson (Little Rock, AR)
Left field, Joe Jackson (Brandon Mills, SC)
Center field, Ty Cobb (Narrows, Banks Co., GA)
Right field, Mel Ott (Gretna, LA)
Manager: Alvin Dark (Comanche, OK)

Gretna, LA, is a suburb adjacent to New Orleans ... so Ott basically grew up in the city. How about Tris Speaker (Hubbard, TX) in his place?

If you want more pop at 3B, you could use Eddie Mathews (Texarkana, TX).

[bordelond]

Thought I'd try to come up with an all-French team:

SP - Andy Pettitte
SP - Kevin Appier
SP - Dolf Luque
SP - Rheal Cormier
SP - Hank Aguirre
RP - Howie Pollet
CL - Eric Gagne

C - Mike LaValliere
1B - Jacques Fournier
2B - Napoleon Lajoie
SS - Lou Bourdreau
3B - Jim Thome
OF - Goose Goslin
OF - Ed Delahanty
OF - Ginger Beaumont

Mgr - Bruce Bochy

[dougie_monty]

Thought I'd try to come up with an all-French team:

SP - Andy Pettitte
SP - Kevin Appier
SP - Dolf Luque
SP - Rheal Cormier
SP - Hank Aguirre
RP - Howie Pollet
CL - Eric Gagne

C - Mike LaValliere
1B - Jacques Fournier
2B - Napoleon Lajoie
SS - Lou Bourdreau
3B - Jim Thome
OF - Goose Goslin
OF - Ed Delahanty
OF - Ginger Beaumont

Mgr - Bruce Bochy
That's fine, but scratch Luque, Aguirre, and Delahanty. Luque was Cuban (he was born and died in Havana); Aguirre was Hispanic (I don't know anything more specific about him); and Ed Delahanty was Irish (his mother's name was Bridget Croke). His father was French-Norman-Irish.

[dougie_monty]

No takers?
How about an all-foreign-born team (Bobby Thompson, Jack Graney, Bert Blyleven etc.)
Or a team all of whose players use their initials (U. L. Washington, J. C. Martin, J. R. Richard, etc...)
Or...?

[dougie_monty]

...but here are my choices for the all-screwball team.
Right-handed pitcher, Dizzy Dean
Left-handed pitcher, Lefty Gomez
Relief pitchers, Rube Waddell & Bo Belinsky
Catcher, Ossee Schreckengost (Waddell's catcher)
First base, ??
Second base, Charley Gehringer
Shortstop, Leo Durocher
Third base, Pepper Martin
Outfield, Babe Ruth, Jim Piersall, Minnie Minoso
Pinch-hitter, Eddie Gaedel
Pinch runner, Arlie Latham
Utility player, Rabbit Maranville
Manager, Casey Stengel
Coaches: Nick Altrock, Max Patkin, Charlie Grimm
Clubowner: Chris Von Der Ahe
Umpires: Ron Luciano, Emmett Ashford, Bill Byron, Bill Guthrie
The Teeming Millions are invited to suggest a first baseman to complete the team. :)
Announcer: Bill Stern

[mikeargo]

Dick Stewart, perhaps?

[dougie_monty]

Dick Stuart, perhaps?
[edited]
"Dr. Strangeglove," eh?
He was with the Dodgers near the end of his career; a club program sold at Dodger Stadium included a picture of him making a slick play at first, with the comment, "'Dr. Strangeglove,' indeed!" :)

[dukesnyder1963]

Isn't Ron Guidry Cajun French? He was a heckuva pitcher and should be on the list if French.

[dukesnyder1963]

Sal "The Barber" Maglie was 100% Italian, and had a better career than Cicotte, so Sal is my choice for the Italian team pitching ace.

[silenus]

How about an "all zombie" team?

[astorian]

Isn't Ron Guidry Cajun French? He was a heckuva pitcher and should be on the list if French.

He sure is, and his family still mostly speaks French at home.

[Ellen Cherry]

How about an "all zombie" team?

Moving to the Game Room, if you all would like to continue!

[astorian]

I remember reading that article when it first came out. Even then, there were a few choices I quibbled with.

For example, the Irish team should have had Whitey Ford (an Irish boy from my old neighborhood, Astoria, NY) as its left-handed pitcher.

Of course, the tough part in coming up with an Irish team is that a white player's ethnicity isn't always obvious. We almost HAVE to judge by his name ("McGinnity" sure sounds Irish, but "Ford" doesn't always sound Irish). Do most of us KNOW Rogers Hornsby's ethnic ancestry? Or Walter Johnson's?


In any case, if Stein were writing that article today, there are a BUNCH of changes he'd need to make.

LATIN TEAM

Pedro Martinez would have to be the right handed starting pitcher for the Latin team

Mariano Rivera would have to be the Latin team's top reliever

Pudge Rodriguez would be the new catcher

Albert Pujols would have to be the 1st baseman


BLACK TEAM

Rickey Henderson would be a MUCH better leadoff man and left fielder than Lou Brock

Barry Bonds has to go in the outfield somewhere. I'd move Henry Aaron to first base and put Barry in right, even though his arm wasn't great.

I'm sure I'll think of more changes soon.