Gay Pride WTF?!!! [Archive] - Straight Dope Message Board

06-27-1999, 01:47 AM

Ok, first off I want to say I'm not homophobic in the least, but I just need to ask something...
Why do some gays insist on having a special group set aside for them to march in parades such as the St. Patrick's day parade?
See, heres my point... If a gay person is a firefighter, or police officer or in any group that is already marching there isn't, nor should their be any question of them being allowed to march. However when they start to complain to the city that they want a special group set aside for them, that is where I feel things start getting out of hand.
For pete's sake, it's only sexuality!!! Do I get a special group soley based on the fact I'm straight?!!! OF COURSE NOT! I feel if a city says no to having a gay group of people marching it isn't because of an anti gay feeling, it's because it's just a dumb idea to have a group of that kind march. Maybe next there will be a group of people that eat chicken every Friday night marching. WHO THE HELL CARES!!! It just doesn't make sense.
As far as I'm concerned gay people should be allowed to be gay and express it as they feel, just like anyone else. However when it comes down to bothering the city for special priviledges no one else has it pisses me off. Leave the city's employees alone they have enough on their minds like crime, the budget, etc. Be happy for what you have, and stop worrying about something, that you or no one else has.

06-27-1999, 02:45 AM

Oh, give me a break. People who "eat chicken on Friday nights" have never had laws passed against them, never been targeted by hate groups, murdered, had their mortal souls condemned, and basically told that they're the scum of the earth because of their fondness for chicken.

I'm not gay, but I can only imagine these groups get started to try to put an end to these atrocities, so that people have a place to turn where they feel accepted, respected, and protected, and they feel the need to make the community, the world, know that they aren't going to take this bullying laying down.

Meanwhile, health care for domestic partners wouldn't just be for gay couples but hetero too. Oh, there goes the country's morals, not only do people shack up left and right, but now the government is going to "condone" it by not making them pay an arm and a leg on medical expenses. Boo hoo.

Ok, maybe it's just late and I'm feeling punchy, but I think I'm about ready for the Great Debates forum.

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"I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it," Jack Handy

06-27-1999, 06:34 AM

Kat says: << Meanwhile, health care for domestic partners wouldn't just be for gay couples but hetero too. >>

The first country (to my knowledge) to admit "partner" to the definition of covered spouses for all legal requirements was the Netherlands. The great majority of users were, in fact, hetero partners.

06-27-1999, 08:08 AM

However when it comes down to bothering the city for special priviledges no one else has it pisses me off.

You do know that you can request a permit for an *I'm Proud to Protest Parades* march or whatever cause floats your boat? Judging from the continual flow of parades and demonstrations here in Our Nation's Capital, it's not a *special privilege no one else has*

06-27-1999, 08:14 AM

Sheesh. Another homophobe. You don't fool me, pal, with your "Who the hell cares?"
YOU care, and obviously very deeply. You're pissed off because you want to be able to deny gays their constitutional right to peacably assemble and can't. Tough shit. That's why we have a Constitution - so jerkbags like you can't force your dark ages thinking on more enlightened individuals.

06-27-1999, 11:57 PM

Well in our parades we have a group of people who assemble because they have dogs...and they put leashes on em and walk down the street. We have another group that walk because they all drive Ford trucks..get my point??? Homosexuals and lesbians are out casted in restaurants, movie theaters,malls, and neighborhoods the LEAST we can do is clap for them as they walk down a street in numbers that are to big for narrow minded fools to ignore! They are human beings with human feelings, one of which is EVERYONES need to belong. I ride motorcycle and I have to tell you I get the NICEST feeling when I get into a large group of motorcycles and just ride....it's the camaraderie. The homosexual/lesbian people in our communities have had enough, and they are tired of being alone. A parade is a small drop in the bucket...compared to what SHOULD be happening.

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Risk looking foolish for love, for your dreams, and for the joy of living......

06-28-1999, 06:20 PM

<<<Nickrz:
"Sheesh. Another homophobe. You don't fool me, pal, with your "Who the hell cares?"
YOU care, and obviously very deeply. You're pissed off because you want to be able to deny gays their constitutional right to peacably assemble and can't. Tough shit. That's why we have a Constitution - so jerkbags like you can't force your dark ages thinking on more enlightened individuals">>>

Ok, not once did I say that I wanted to deny gays the right to "peacably assemble". I think that having a group especially set aside because your gay is just dumb. Same w/ the whole Ford Trucks, and Dog Walkers. To me it makes no sense. The people marching in parades should be ones that are fit to be honored. Firefighters, and policemen put their lives on the line for "jerkbags" like us everyday. A gay person that participates in a group like that should be honored, but just due to the fact a person is gay is no deed that should be honored. Nor should a person based on the fact that they're straight.
Nickerz, if you want to resort to name calling instead of debating with me on this issue without giving solid arguements that's fine, I won't lower myself to your level.

06-28-1999, 06:41 PM

Old E:
Nickerz, if you want to resort to name calling instead of debating with me on this issue without giving solid arguements that's fine

First of all, you are in the 'Pit, dumbass. Wanna' play nice? Go to the sandbox.

Do I get a special group soley based on the fact I'm straight?

Have you ever been snickered at, beat up or prejudiced against because you are straight?

As far as I'm concerned gay people should be allowed to be gay and express it as they feel

Well, er, evidently not.

Firefighters, and policemen put their lives on the line for "jerkbags" like us everyday.

Wait a minute ... am I paying for that?

06-28-1999, 09:24 PM

<<<The people marching in parades should be ones that are fit to be honored. Firefighters, and policemen put their lives on the line for "jerkbags" like us everyday.>>>

And just who the hell judges whos "fit" to be honored????? Pretty narrow minded thinking there pal!

06-29-1999, 03:15 PM

sly:
<<<Have you ever been snickered at, beat up or prejudiced against because you are straight?>>>

As a matter of fact I have been. You ever walk into a room of gay people and have them criticize you because you don't have the same fashion sense as them? I have. Many times I have been a victim of prejudice soley on my race. I'm white, live in a town which has a pretty large hispanic and black population, neighbored by towns that the majority is hispanic and black. I go into the local McDonalds, and some of these kids see a little white boy and try and get money from me. It has even come down to the point where there have been boxcutters and even at one point a gun was pulled, just because I, a little white boy wanted lunch. Do you see me bitching and moaning to politicians about it? NO!!!! That's just life, sometimes you get beat, sometimes you give a beating. You deal with it and go on. Suck it up and stop complaining!

06-29-1999, 04:11 PM

You ever walk into a room of gay people and have them criticize you because you don't have the same fashion sense as them?

You're kidding, right? Lemme guess, stripes and plaid?

Suck it up and stop complaining!

Maybe you should heed your own advice, twit.

06-29-1999, 05:08 PM

Old E wrote:
... A gay person that participates in a group like that should be honored, but just due to the fact a person is gay is no deed that should be honored. Nor should a person based on the fact that they're straight.

I think you misunderstand the whole point. Gay Pride is not about the city or population paying homage to homosexuality. It's about homosexuals having the freedom to say "I'm gay and I'm not ashamed of myself." It's an affirmation of personal pride in oneself.
Straight people take for granted that they can do things like hold hands with their partners in public and it isn't considered disgusting or shameful. Except in certain gay-friendly parts of the country, gay people have to hide even the simplest acts of love to avoid ridicule and persecution and this is just plain stupid.

07-01-1999, 02:58 PM

I'm white, live in a town which has a pretty large hispanic and black population, neighbored by towns that the majority is hispanic and black. I go into the local McDonalds, and some of these kids see a little white boy and try and get money from me. It has even come down to the point where there have been boxcutters and even at one point a gun was pulled, just because I, a little white boy wanted lunch. Do you see me bitching and moaning to politicians about it? NO!!!!

Wowee zowee, that took an ugly turn! Let's borrow a page from the Animaniacs, and compare:

Good idea: Talk to politicians about reducing crime rate in town.
Bad idea: Talk to politicians about reducing Mexicans and blacks in town.

What exactly are you not going to the politicians about again?

Anyway, people get together in groups. Whether it's because they're gay, recovering alcoholics, like dogs or trucks, whatever, they like to look for people they have a common bond with that they can share experiences with or seek support from. And if it's a group that has been persecuted, they naturally want to find ways to build up their self-esteem and make the public aware of their issues.

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"I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it," Jack Handy

07-01-1999, 09:41 PM

You watch - the next words out of his mouth will be "I don't dislike homosexuals, it's their behavior I don't like."

Geezis. You'd think the homophobes could come up with some new material once in awhile.

Oh, I forgot "I don't care what they do as long as they keep their hands off my winkie." That's always a good one, too. Like gay people are lusting after their bigoted asses, right.

07-02-1999, 11:54 AM

Well,I guess Nickrz is a homophobephobe!(Announcement:this is a joke)

07-02-1999, 05:52 PM

It's their behavior I dislike...

07-03-1999, 01:06 AM

Nick, I think you're way out of line on this one. You are a moderator, not a participant. Stay out of debates, whether it is the Pit or not. It is possible for people to have ideas which go against those promoted by gay-rights organizations and not be anti-gay. For example, I oppose gay marriage. But I don't hate gays.

07-03-1999, 05:31 AM

The only way to become a moderator is to be a participant. If you can't tell the difference between a moderator moderating, and a moderator participating, you've got some problems.

Nick, please feel free to participate in any forum that I moderate. Especially if you're gonna be funny.

Lynn

07-03-1999, 10:11 AM

Lawrence, my son, being a Straight Dope moderator does not require a vow of silence.
(Poverty.. well, that's another matter).

As for your opposition to gay marriages, perhaps that does not involve hatred of gays on your part. Perhaps you would grace us with your explanation as to why gays should be singled out and denied rights granted to heterosexual couples? (Keeping in mind, of course, many big-city governments and large corporations routinely grant same-sex couples rights of survivorship and dependant health care coverage).

Suppose you tell us why a marriage license should be denied two people who are no different from you and me, save their sexual orientation?

Suppose you tell us why the Federal government should not have included "sexual orientation" as one of the protected classes for workplace harassment and discrimination?

Be prepared, folks, for all the standard homophobe propoganda. Oh.. Perhaps I should not have used the word "homophobe" since Lawrence here professes no hatred. Let me substitute the word "bigot." That better?

07-03-1999, 05:15 PM

Nick, I've noticed somthing from all your posts whether it's in the pit, or anywhere else. You are always first to criticize, or label someone as a bigot or homophobe. You hardly even argue a valid point, due to the childish name calling you constantly resort to. Wouldn't your quick labeling make you the prejudice one here?

07-03-1999, 05:56 PM

Old E, the fact that you named this thread "Gay Pride WTF?!!!", and singled out gays for your rant, then tried to claim that, no, your gripe was with any non-civil-service group separating themselves out and marching in a parade and not gays specifically, isn't fooling anyone. Why didn't you name the thread "Why Not Only Police and Firefighters In Parades?" Nope, your gripe is obviously with homosexuals specifically, which makes you a bigot.

07-03-1999, 06:52 PM

[[As for your opposition to gay marriages, perhaps that does not involve hatred of gays on your part. Perhaps you would grace us with your explanation as to why gays should be singled out and denied rights granted to heterosexual couples? (Keeping in mind, of course, many big-city governments and large corporations routinely grant same-sex couples rights of survivorship and dependant health care coverage).

Suppose you tell us why a marriage license should be denied two people who are no different from you and me, save their sexual orientation? ]] Nickrz

I don't feel especially strongly about the gay marriage issue, one way or another, since most of the benefits thereof can be obtained separately. I would note, though, that the government grants certain benefits and duties via legal marriage for the purpose of fostering procreation and child-rearing. As a general proposition, this interest is not significantly advanced by recognizing same-sex marriages.

[[Suppose you tell us why the Federal government should not have included "sexual orientation" as one of the protected classes for workplace harassment and discrimination?]]

I clearly think it should be included, and I have every expectation that this will become the law within a few years.

07-03-1999, 11:39 PM

the government grants certain benefits and duties via legal marriage for the purpose of fostering procreation and child-rearing. As a general proposition, this interest is not significantly advanced by recognizing same-sex marriages.

Well, I've never heard of a couple being denied the right to marry because they couldn't or didn't plan to have children. Women over childbearing age are allowed to marry. So I think you have to look elsewhere for an explanation. Homophobia is really the only one I can imagine.

07-04-1999, 01:57 AM

{{[[the government grants certain benefits and duties via legal marriage for the purpose of fostering procreation and child-rearing. As a general proposition, this interest is not significantly advanced by recognizing same-sex marriages.]]

Well, I've never heard of a couple being denied the right to marry because they couldn't or didn't plan to have children. Women over childbearing age are allowed to marry. So I think you have to look elsewhere for an explanation. Homophobia is really the only one I can imagine.}} ruadh

Well, there's no doubt that homophobia plays a role, but nevertheless what I stated is a substantial, non-discriminatory reason. Most laws operate on some level of generality (that's why, e.g., we don't let anyone 12-years-old drive a car, regardless of their individual abilities). Similarly, I don't want the government inquiring into the status of women's wombs, nor the intentions of couples.

Hey, for the most part, I don't really care about the issue.

07-04-1999, 03:32 AM

"I don't feel especially strongly about the gay marriage issue, one way or another, since most of the benefits thereof can be obtained separately. I would note, though, that the government grants certain benefits and duties via legal marriage for the purpose of fostering procreation and child-rearing. As a general proposition, this interest is not significantly advanced by recognizing same-sex marriages." Big Iron

Well, there's also the next-of-kin issues. I've heard some horror stories about life-partners not allowed to be at the loved one's deathbed.

I say, let the gays get married! Why should only straight people suffer like this?

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Lynn the Packrat

07-04-1999, 09:08 AM

Nick, I've noticed somthing from all your posts whether it's in the pit, or anywhere else. You are always first to criticize, or label someone as a bigot or homophobe Please show me one single instance where I have called anyone a homophobe or bigot outside this forum. "All" my posts? Heehee. Sweeping generalizations will get you everywhere, my man. FYI, criticism of our ideas either makes them stronger or weaker as the case may be, but in either event ignorance usually takes a back seat, and that's the whole purpose of Cecil and The Straight Dope - careful examination of our attitudes, preconceptions, misconceptions etc. Without healthy criticism we are lost. Nobody is above it, and nobody is below it.

As for my "childish name-calling" well.. that's all part of the game here in the pit, dood. If you are going to post inflammatory anti-gay topics here, you will surely incur my wrath (such as it is) and you can certainly expect to be labeled with the simplest term that describes your condition. You have not done anything to demonstrate you don't deserve those labels, and you have not given me one valid point to take you to task with, just a bunch of emotional ranting and raving. I hate to be trite, but if the shoe fits, wear it and if you can't stand the heat, get out of the BBQ.

07-04-1999, 09:55 AM

Gay pride float on parade? Why the heck not? What is the big deal anyway...??
Should same sex couples allow to marry? Being born and raised in Fenno-scandia...my opinion is pretty stereotypical... Why the hell not? Again what the heck is a big deal here anyway?

The whole issue is a lot of hot air blown up by bunch of windbags....sheesh..
I do firmly belive that same sex couples should have same rights and responsibiliteis as opposite sex couples. I can't get over the bigotry.

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Cogito Ergo Vroom
I think therefore I ride fast...

07-05-1999, 03:52 AM

[["I don't feel especially strongly about the gay marriage issue, one way or another, since most of the benefits thereof can be obtained separately. I would note, though, that the government grants certain benefits and duties via legal marriage for the purpose of fostering procreation and child-rearing. As a general proposition, this interest is not significantly advanced by recognizing same-sex marriages." Big Iron
Well, there's also the next-of-kin issues. I've heard some horror stories about life-partners not allowed to be at the loved one's deathbed.]] Lynn

Hey, like I said , I have no particular objection to the idea, but (a) this could be resolved by specific legislation, or (b) a will.

07-29-1999, 03:26 PM

Why should gay people get a pride parade? you ask.

Shit, I'm damn proud of having the mental stamina to deal with assholes like this! Gays and lesbians *deserve* a parade, not to mention an Oscar and a Nobel Peace Prize for putting up with bigotry our whole lives. Sheesh.

07-29-1999, 11:02 PM

Why Gay pride? Two reasons, in my mind:

1) People who have been persecuted in society for arbitrary reasons have been excluded from society for so long that they have developed their own culture. Every day and everything about our society is a celebration of a culture that is foreign to them. Next time you feel the need to complain about people who are different, remember that it is your ATTITUDE that has created that difference. Minorities are defined and created by the majority. Since gays have been denied by society the very dignity that the rest of the heterosexual society takes for granted. It is natural to want to take that dignity back.

2) To piss off homophobes. Hell, if I were gay, (or ANY kind of minority, for that matter. Truth is, I'm about as majority they come) I would get no greater pleasure than enraging those people who spew bigotry and hatred. Sure its risky, but if they don't shoot you, it so much fun to piss off irrationally ignorant people.

(BTW, if the first words out of your mouth are "I am not a homophobe but..." Guess what? You're a homophobe.

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Jason R Remy

"Open mindedness is not the same thing as empty mindedness."
-- John Dewey Democracy and Education (1916)

07-30-1999, 03:13 PM

(right after a gay kiss) Incidentally, girls, if the guy you're with went "Ewww!" or made some comment, he's what we call a "closet case".
-DeeDee, "The Opposite of Sex"

07-30-1999, 04:30 PM

matt_mcl said - "Why should gay people get a pride parade? you ask. Shit, I'm damn proud of having the mental stamina to deal with assholes like this! Gays and lesbians *deserve* a parade, not to mention an Oscar and a Nobel Peace Prize for putting up with bigotry our whole lives.

Matt, I'd love to know what you think the Jews *deserve*. I can't think of a group that has been more persecuted in the history of mankind.

07-30-1999, 05:56 PM

I think one of the points Old E is trying to make is that we're NOT blind when it comes to this kind of thing. He finds it silly that people are marching in a parade honoring St. Patrick (or Thanksgiving, or whatever) under the blanket of bringing attention to their sexuality and/or way of life. I, too, think it's a little silly, and a little bit of the "in your face" sort of mentality. But that's neither here nor there.

What IS interesting is that we all bring our own personal prejudices to the plate. Had Old E been referring to the Ku Klux Klan in his original post, I doubt he would get the vehement replies that he did. Many, if not most, people think of the KKK as "bad" and wouldn't be very happy to see a large KKK presence in their local parade. We'd all support that, wouldn't we?

Another example. A good friend of mine told me his company was hiring an Italian man. Before he started working, people made a lot of jokes about "Watch out, he'll call his mafia brothers!" and that sort of thing. Not disparaging jokes, but jokes that incorporated his nationality. Nobody thought twice about it until my friend pointed out that had the man been black, or Mexican, or Jewish, and the same sorts of jokes had been made, somebody would have been fired.

This PC thing *has* gotten a little bit out of control. It *is* possible to notice someone's sexual preference, ethnicity, or race, and comment on it WITHOUT being racist, a homophobe, or whatever you want to call it. I *do* question whether or not a parade is the best place to bring attention to one's sexuality, as I question whether it's the best place to say "I hate blacks" or "I'm a survivor of breast cancer" or other such things. It's not a slam against a specific group - it's simply saying that a parade isn't the best place to say what you want to say. Put it in the newspaper, do some charity work, or do other things to bring publicity to your cause.

On a side note, a group that HAS somewhat changed their profile is Harley Motorcyle riders. You all know the stereotype of the Big Scary Harley Dude. In my area, they've been trying to change that. They didn't all dress up in their leathers and march in a parade. They started doing charity work, and things like group motorcycle rides that collected money for certain causes. They also made sure that the motorcycle rallies were more or less clean, weren't overly loud (or were in places where loud bands, etc. were OK) and that fights didn't break out. So far, it's been working.

07-31-1999, 01:56 PM

What IS interesting is that we all bring our own personal prejudices to the plate. Had Old E been referring to the Ku Klux Klan in his original post, I doubt he would get the vehement replies that he did. Many, if not most, people think of the KKK as "bad" and wouldn't be very happy to see a large KKK presence in their local parade. We'd all support that, wouldn't we?

Ku Klux Klan is about who you hate. Homosexuality is about who you love. The difference between the two is crystal clear.

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08-01-1999, 02:30 AM

Ku Klux Klan is about who you hate. Homosexuality is about who you love.
The difference between the two is crystal clear.

Bravo...

Someone on another thread asked if I was "bigotted against bigots." The fact is there is nothing wrong with disliking (and even publily expressing that dislike) people who spew hatred and incite harm against other human beings.

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Jason R Remy

"Open mindedness is not the same thing as empty mindedness."
-- John Dewey Democracy and Education (1916)

08-02-1999, 10:12 AM

OK, so it's all right to promote things that are about "love" but not things that are about "hate" or things that "incite harm."

Ponder two points - would it be OK to have a group of people against the Ku Klux Klan express their opinions in public? Are they for "love" because they are marching in honor of civil rights, or are they for "hate" because they are publicly denouncing a specific group of people (the KKK) ?

And what about the people who, because of religious or other beliefs, feel that homosexuality indeed does "incite harm" against other people? I'm not asking whether you think it's right or wrong for them to feel that way - I personally think it's wrong, but that's beside the point. I'm saying, take a person who in his or her heart of hearts, truly believes that homosexuality is wrong, and is harmful to people. To that person, this group IS expressing hate and harm, not "love."

It's all opinions and personal beliefs, people. You can't say that it's OK for one group to march because they're for "love" and another can't because they're for "hate" because it's ALL subjective, no matter how many people happen to agree with you. The Constitution also supports this. You're free to agree or disagree with any cause you want. But taking that one step farther and allowing or disallowing certain groups to assemble based on what you agree or disagree with is WRONG. If the Gay Pride people are allowed to march in the parade, the KKK is allowed as well. My point was that a parade is not the place to push EITHER point - let's just keep the politics out of something as light as a parade.

08-02-1999, 03:26 PM

Jayron :

I agree completely with your post. Very good points on not all feelings and emotions being good. I think we're closer to the same side than may be apparant. I'm certainly not defending the KKK, but I *am* defending their right to assemble. I also support the rights of homosexuals to assemble. No problem there. I don't agree with the KKK, and I'm right with you as far as if they all disappeared tomorrow, the world would be a better place.

But.... to bring this topic back to the original post, where does one draw the line? I, personally, would have a problem with the KKK marching in my town's St. Patrick's day parade. Alphagene, I would have a problem with that even if they were the Irish KKK. Other people have problems with other groups (ie, homosexuals). Isn't it OK, at times, to say "let's keep politics and crusades out of this particular event?" If gays, or KKK members, or post-menopausal hemophiliac dwarves want to march in the parade in order to promote their Irish heritage, let them do it, but leave the politics at home. I resent certain groups taking every single opportunity available to promote their particular cause, no matter how much I may agree or disagree with the cause. As I've said before, I also question whether it's very effective. I highly doubt that any gay-bashers are going to change their minds when they see the gay rights marchers in the parade - rather, it would probably inflame them and make them even MORE violently opposed to gays.

08-02-1999, 04:48 PM

If gays, or KKK members, or post-menopausal hemophiliac dwarves want to march in the parade in order to promote their Irish heritage, let them do it, but leave the politics at home.
then
As I've said before, I also question whether it's very effective.

The homosexuals who want to march in the SP parade do not seek to use the parade as way to:
* Convert homophobes.
* Spread homosexual propaganda.
* Kidnap your daughter and cover her in flannel.
* Watch "AbFab" with your son.

They are Irish. Period. The fact that homosexuals are not allowed to march, means that they are not accepted by the Irish bigshots in charge of the parade. It's the homophobes running the show who make this whole deal political.

Wow, I'm glad I'm not gay, because according to your comments, everywhere I went I'd be making a politcal statement.

- "Hi, I'm gay"
- "Leave your political agenda at home!!!!"

08-02-1999, 06:23 PM

Alphagene said - "Wow, I'm glad I'm not gay, because according to your comments, everywhere I went I'd be making a politcal statement.

- "Hi, I'm gay"
- "Leave your political agenda at home!!!!"

Why the "Hi, I'm gay" at all? Do I say "Hi, I'm an Arab-Jew"? Why do you have to bring up being gay in the first place? What difference does it make if you're gay or not? The fact that all the cops want to march together and all the blacks want to march together and all the (fill in group here) want to march together is stupid. Homosexuals get mad at everybody else for "grouping them together as gays", then want to group themselves together as gays. Why lower yourselves to that level? Why can't everybody just march together? If you want to march with your friends/family/co-workers/others with the same skin color as you/others with the same sexual preference as you/others with the same SAT scores as you, do so. But why carry a sign? Why have separate groups in the first place? If we're marching to celebrate being Irish, what the hell difference does the rest of it make. March as one with Irish pride, and leave the bullshit at home.

08-02-1999, 06:23 PM

Oh come on... what did I say that made you think that simply being gay was making a political statement? I don't believe that in the least!

If they're simply Irish, and are not trying to increase awareness of homosexuality, why do they point out that they're gay? Why not just march? If I'm a democrat, and I march in a parade under a big sign that says "Irish Democrats!" then I'm making a point. I'm NOT just Irish - I'm an Irish Democrat, and I want people to know that. Do you disagree with this?

Sheesh... at this point, I'm wondering why I got into this debate at all. If you're going to disagree with the fact that the homosexuals who are marching in the parade are even trying to make a statement, then we need to agree to disagree. If you think I'm homophobic for feeling the way I do (and I feel like I've made it very clear that I'm not advocating discriminating solely against homosexuals, but all political groups in this situation), then there's little I can do to change your mind. Is what I'm saying *really* so hard to understand? Is wanting a parade that's just a parade, without political agenda of ANY kind, such a wrong thing?

08-02-1999, 06:48 PM

Athena, I think you and I had exactly the same thoughts at exactly the same time. Pretty weird. Do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do.

08-02-1999, 08:40 PM

Funny, gays march in the St. Patty's Day parade in Ireland.

If gays are banned in SPD marches in certain towns in the U.S. (there are some U.S. towns that do let them march); then it is a BFD. Those biased and discriminating Irish in those towns are the ones making the a statement -- a decidedly anti-gay statement.

Peace.

08-02-1999, 10:50 PM

Homosexuals get mad at everybody else for "grouping them together as gays"

Not really (and anyone who is gay is free to back this up or refute it) but homosexuals get mad because either: 1) People get mad at them for being homosexuals and 2) People try to get them to stop being homosexuals. It's only natural that they want to be able to openly display (not announce, but display) their homosexuality. And don't forget, you and I get to openly display our heterosexuality every day (try to pick up girls, hold our girlfriend's hand in public, etc. etc.). Why is it that when a homosexual displays this behavior, it's a political statement?

The fact is, the straight majority created the institution and culture of homosexuality. That is not to say that we caused people to become gay (as if you could cause somone to become gay???) but we created the idea of homosexuals as a seperate group by denying them the basic dignities we allow the rest of our society. The straight majority were the ones who made the situation political and public, the homosexual community is merely responding to them.

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Jason R Remy

"Open mindedness is not the same thing as empty mindedness."
-- John Dewey Democracy and Education (1916)

08-03-1999, 12:35 AM

Ah... ain't moral relativism grand! It allows people like this:

And what about the people who, because of religious or other beliefs, feel that
homosexuality indeed does "incite harm" against other people?

to defend all people in the world without feeling guilty.

Yes, the KKK has the right to march, protest, publish newsletters, recruit new members, and do anything else that any other group is allowed to do. Our country is a free one, and these people have the same rights as anyone else.

I also have the right to NOT agree with them, and indeed to public display WHY I do not agree with them.

I hate to say it, but everything is NOT subjective and relative. Merely because you "feel" that a person is inciting harm, does not mean that they actually are. Reality exists; whether or not you accept it is up to you. I can say that the sun moves around the earth, that it's three miles away, and it's name is "Ralph." It does NOT mean that I should be taken seriously when I express these beliefs. Likewise, merely because someone "feels" that harm is being caused does not mean we must take them seriously. Not all beliefs and feelings are good. Some are outright hateful, and harmful to society. HOWEVER, this does not mean that we can unlawfully stop people from expressing them. There are other means of minimizing the harm done by hatred in this country that do not involve curtailing rights.

I still feel that the KKK should not be saying what they are, and if they all woke up tomorrow and decided their whole philosophy was flawed, and they stopped being racist, the world will be a much better place. The point is: we DO have to allow everyone the same rights to express their beliefs. We DO NOT have to accept those beliefs, or let them go unchallenged. Merely because someone "feels" some way does not mean that they are OK.

On the flipside, someone may say that they "feel" that homosexuality causes harm to society in such a way that society should not allow it. I'd like to introduce these people to my friend Ralph, the big yellow ball in the sky...

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Jason R Remy

"Open mindedness is not the same thing as empty mindedness."
-- John Dewey Democracy and Education (1916)

08-03-1999, 12:37 AM

He finds it silly that people are marching in a parade honoring St. Patrick (or Thanksgiving, or whatever) under the blanket of bringing attention to their sexuality and/or way of life. I, too, think it's a little silly, and a little bit of the "in your face" sort of mentality.

The homosexuals who want to march in the St. Patty's parade are Irish. Which, IMHO, is sufficient qualification for marching in the parade. Do you resent the "in your face" mentality of Irish cops marching in the parade, taking pride in their career?

08-03-1999, 01:59 PM

Alphagene:

I'm arguing that political issues that are highly emotional do not belong in things such as St. Patrick's Day parades. In that group, I would include gay rights, abortion rights, and anything about the death penalty. I'm sure there's more - these are just the ones that come to mind. Interestingly enough, I'm FOR gay rights, pro-choice, and against the death penalty.

Why do I feel that way? Well, because regardless of what side you're on, these kinds of things *do* tend to overshadow whatever the point of the parade is. Say the Irish Democrats march by. Most people do not get highly emotional about that, so they enjoy it and go on to the next group.

If it's the Gay Irish, though, people react differently. People are usually on one side or another on these issues, and all of a sudden you're thinking about how much you hate gays (or whatever). The Irish thing has become secondary.

I'm not saying gays shouldn't be a part of the parade - if a gay person wants to march, no problem. But march without a big sign announcing you're gay. Make the subject of the parade the main issue. You simply can't announce that you're gay and NOT expect people to come away with ideas about that. It's not fair, but it *is* the truth. It's not the same as declaring you're an Irish Policeman or an Irish Band.

The bulk of the other highly emotional groups seem to understand this - you don't often see people marching for abortion rights in St. Patrick's Day parades. That doesn't mean that their issue isn't important, or that they're not dedicated. It just seems like a waste of energy to promote your cause in something like this.

Now, if you're asking if it's fair or right that announcing you're gay makes people froth at the mouth, that's a different issue. It's not right or fair, and I wish that everybody would just realize that one's choice of a bedmate does not make them sub-human. But we're not there yet, and pushing the issue in parades seems to be working towards enforcing the hatred, not decreasing it.

08-03-1999, 02:12 PM

So any group that has an opinion, lifestyle or belief that some people violently oppose should not parade? Better get rid of all that Catholic symbolism in the St. Patty's parade then. Tell Cardinal O'Connor to stay home. That bastard, flaunting his crucifix like that. Saying "God bless." An affront to atheist Irishmen everywhere! Talk about "in your face"!

White supremacists would froth at the mouth at our annual Puerto Rican day parade. Better cancel that then, too.

08-03-1999, 04:40 PM

Athena, you seem to be supporting the "heckler's veto," advocating that some groups can be prohibited from participating in civic events because of the way others might react. I bet there are people who get upset over the Irish Democrats. And, really, at least the Gay Irish are fairly content-neutral. Homosexuals come from as wide a range of political opinions and situations as any other group; Democrats are all Democrats.

It's funny that you mentioned abortion rights. Last year in the televised coverage of the Cleveland parade, I saw a group marching under a banner for Pro-Life Irish. I thought, "They can march, but the homosexuals can't? Yeesh."

To state as you did:I'm not saying gays shouldn't be a part of the parade - if a gay person wants to
march, no problem. But march without a big sign announcing you're gay. Make the
subject of the parade the main issue. You simply can't announce that you're gay and
NOT expect people to come away with ideas about that. It's not fair, but it *is* the
truth. It's not the same as declaring you're an Irish Policeman or an Irish Band.

really does tread close to "blaming the victim." You can't expect homosexuals, who may belong to groups which offer support, not to announce their membership in those groups based on the possible reactions of others. The only way to change that "truth" is to challenge it.

08-03-1999, 04:56 PM

pldennison:

I agree... if the Pro-Life Irish can march, the Gay Irish should be able to as well.

really does tread close to "blaming the victim." You can't expect homosexuals, who may belong to groups which offer support, not to announce their membership in those groups based on the possible reactions of others. The only way to change that "truth" is to challenge it.

I agree. But you can choose your fights. Pressing the issue in something like a parade makes people angry, and does nothing to open their mind to whatever cause it is. Education, one-on-one interactions... that's how to change people's minds. A parade is the LAST place that true learning is going to appear.

Alphagene:

So any group that has an opinion, lifestyle or belief that some people violently oppose should not parade?

Ummm.... yes. They shouldn't parade if they're interested in changing people's minds, or promoting their cause. It's not an effective way to change things, IMO. The world SHOULD be a place where being gay isn't a heated political issue, but it's not, and making people even more pissed isn't going to help anything.

08-03-1999, 05:40 PM

Everybody should have the right to march under any banner they want, in what ever civic parade they can find. There should be no laws prohibiting this. These people also have a right not to be called names, not to be beaten up, and not to be killed.

The woman who is dressed in super-skimpy clothing should have the right to walk into any tough biker bar at one in the morning on a Saturday night without any fear of being pawed or raped (no one EVER deserves these things). Afterall, there are laws protecting her from rape.

And I should also have the right to walk down the toughest street in town at night with hundred dollar bills hanging out of my pockets and gold chains draped around my neck without the fear of being robbed, beaten up or killed. After all, there are laws protecting me from theft and battery.

But I don't, because I know better. I have the right to do it, sure, but I don't, because I know the consequenses (for right or wrong, they're still consequenses). Sure, hang that gay-pride banner high when you march in the parade. More power to you. Express yourself! After all, it's your right and there are (or should be) laws protecting you from harm. But don't cry to me when some bigoted punk calls you names, beats you up or kills you. You knew better. You knew what your actions might provoke. Rights or no rights, laws or no laws, you put yourself into a bad situation, and you'll pay the price.

08-03-1999, 07:07 PM

criticism of our ideas either makes them stronger or weaker as the case may be, but in either event ignorance usually takes a back seat, and that's the whole purpose of Cecil and The Straight Dope - careful examination of our attitudes, preconceptions, misconceptions etc. Without healthy criticism we are lost. Nobody is above it, and nobody is below it.

It's a nice philosophy, Nick. Too bad it's not the reality.

-Melin
Former Board Goddess

08-04-1999, 12:39 AM

I know you are not a homophobe, Athena. Otherwise we'd be arguing a completely different point here. But:
If you're going to disagree with the fact that the homosexuals who are marching in the parade are even trying to make a statement, then we need to agree to disagree.

The problem is that a lot of people assume that the mere presence of homosexuals means that they are going to try and turn the event into a gay pride event. Now if these Irish homosexual walk under a banner saying "Gay Irish Club", is that "in your face"? Assuming they don't go tossing around free condoms and yelling "We're here, We're Queer!" and doing all that nasty stuff that vocal gay-postive activists do, I think not. Some gay people can refrain from doing that, you know.

Let me ask you, are you worried that Irish people who march in a gay pride parade are attempting to divert attention away from gay pride into a protest of British occupation of Catholic Ireland?

Again, Athena, I don't think you are homophobic, but aren't you implying that gays shouldn't be a part of any parade, except for a gay pride parade? Doesn't that seem wrong?

08-04-1999, 03:41 PM

To paraphrase Athena, I don't mind if gays march in the Irish parade just as long as they don't proclaim their gayness.

That is 100% pure offensiveness. It sounds like you are arguing that myself and all my brethren should go "straight" back into the closet. We are here, we are queer, and we are also human with human desires and needs. We have developed a disctinctly different subculture (I am not arguing that it is the best or worst, just that it is different) from the mainstream norm. This is frankly because we are different and have the need to be ourselves without being uptight by the straight entrapments. (I am not bashing straight people) Being gay, it is very difficult to go out in public with my boyfriend and to not think that we might be beaten in public for showing our emotions towards ourselves. For that matter, it is even difficult to find a boyfriend who is willing to hold hands, kiss, flirt, etc in public. I personally think that any of this type of behaviour is my right and I exercise it at almost all times. I should also say that there are circumstances where I know I will not be able to do anything like the prestated instances because it can result in bodily harm to myself and/or my significant other. Remember Matthew Shephard? He was the boy who was brutally murdered by two other boys because he was gay. They also had their two girlfriend accomplices help them attempt to cover up their crime by hiding and washing their clothes so the FBI could not trace them as easily. The boys were given minimal sentances (not life or the death penalty) and the girls were given sentances of about 5 years. I think all gay people should proclaim that they are gay and do it as often as possible in public. In a way it helps ensure that we are not beaten, killed, or ridiculed in public because as people realize that our numbers our greater than first imagined and we are not complacent with the status quo then perhaps the next homophobe gaybasher will think twice and not attempt to kill the next Matthew Shephard.

It is obvious that visibility helps further the gay cause which is to be accepted for who we are without fear of retribution. Marching in parades helps. The St. Patrick's Day Parade is no different. Gay people are from every ethnicity and should be allowed to march. Someone (sorry but I am not going to search through to find out who mentioned it) also mentioned that Firefighters, Policeman, or other similar public servants should march even if they were gay (paraphrased). In truth there is a whole contingent of Gay and Lesbian marchers in the New York City gay pride parade. We really are from every facet of life. Because of the inherent homophobia of our puritanical United States, we are forced to hide from "polite society". I think not.

There are too many gay men and women who, at an early age, knew that they were gay and were forced into denial or hiding because of that simple fact. I personally have met many married men who are gay but in fact are married to women. They frequent bars or other sex haunts. (If you are married go get a blood test.) Some gay men, like some of every group of people, are just sluts and have no regard for marriage. They (the married gay men) live a double life obviously. If society was less stringent on how it treats gay men and women, they would be less likely to marry someone of the opposite sex out of convenience or to further enforce their cloeted lives than they are currently prone to. Many of these men live their entire lives unhappy because of instances like these. In my personal experiences I have found that small towns are the worst in issues regarding homophobia. It is not that they aren't quaint. It is just that in smaller towns there is less population, thus less gay visibility. Imagine being in a town where you are from the only black family. At least when you are black you can easily discern who the other people who share your ethnicity are. When you are gay, there aren't necessarily any discernable characteristics. Ask your husband and they may tell you different. But then again, he may be the one tricking (that is having sex) at the parks, baths, or other sex type club. Just because he is married to you does not mean he is straight. On the rare occasion is this true. I have a friend in Delaware, whom shall remain nameless because I respect him and his wife's privacy, who is married and "out" to his wife. They stopped having sex a long time ago because he finally told his wife that he is gay. They are both very religious and find the vow to stay together more important than a divorce; however, they are both free to find other love partners, and do. They have been together for 26 years now and were married when they were both in their early twenties. I should point out that this is in the severe minority. Most married (to a woman) gay men are severely closeted and would never dream of telling their wives that they were gay. I have another friend back in San Antonio whose wife left him and their two kids because she is gay. The husband (who is also gay but was faithful to his wife the whole time) won't tell his kids because they took it so badly when she came out. The stories go on and on.

Back to the parade. We don't want to march to recruit new homosexuals. We are not a club. We don't recruit members. We don't want to march in the parade to incite people to violence, that is what the KKK does. Nor do we want to march in the parade to sicken our straight brethren. It is a way for us to peaceably (sp?) show our numbers in public in a parade that caters to ourselves because of our ethnicity (in the case of the St. Patrick's Day Parade), our job (policeman/fireman's parades), or whatever.

To conclude, we have a right to assemble peaceably whenever and wherever we want to. We don't attempt to spread hateful material. We are just in public proclaiming that we are happy with ourselves for being gay and deliver the message to the younger generation that they don't have to hide who they are and that they too can be proud of themselves. And if anyone argues that gay people are always happy then why is the suicide rate for gay teenagers triple that of any other class of people?

SqrlCub

08-04-1999, 04:51 PM

SqrlCub, Would you be offended if a group of KKK members marched in the S.F. or N.Y. Gay Pride Parade with a huge KKK banner and Nazi armbands? They have every right to, afterall. That wouldn't bother you in the least? You could just ignore the whole thing? Would you be surprised if a large contingent of "Dikes On Bikes", who happen to be some very tough women, beat the shit out of them for doing that? Just curious.

08-05-1999, 12:28 AM

They shouldn't parade if they're interested in changing people's minds, or promoting their cause.

OK, I will say it yet again. They want to march because they are Irish. They are not trying to change people's minds. I think your assumptions about the "hidden agenda" of the Gay Irish group is blinding you.

making people even more pissed isn't going to help anything.

OK, then cancel all ethnic parades. The pride people take in their heritage is bound to piss some people off somewhere. The Irish in the St. Patty's parade aren't forcing their Irish-ness in anyone's face by parading. They are merely taking pride in being Irish. The Gay Irish who want to march have the same perspective towards their homosexuality.

Hell, the 1996 and 1998 Yankee ticket-tape parade probably pissed off a lot of Mets fans, as well as fans of the Indians, Braves, Padres and Red Sox. Guess that one was a bad idea, too.

Here's my homework assignment for you, Athena. Come up with a parade that won't piss someone off. Some people will be pissed off no matter what. Why should we bend over backwards to cater to them?

08-05-1999, 08:25 AM

No Dirty Devil, I would not be offended if the KKK marched with the gay pride parade in NYC or SF as long as they possessed peacable intentions and actions and were known not to harm the marchers or the parade, let them march. This is highly unlikely given the groups current status. It would be like a similarly peaceful group of people that want to march in the St. Patrick's Day Parade.

Now for the more important part of this message, I resent the fact that you compare the presence of gay people to the presence of the KKK. Gay people by and large are not violent just like the majority of Americans are non-violent contrary to what television may tell you. A group that uses intimidation and violence as a means to coerce individuals to its will is in no means entitled to exist. In essence you are comparing gay people to a group of bigoted terrorists who, for some strange reason, believe that any Non-WASP person is bound to go to hell and they are God's emissary in ensuring they end up there sooner rather than later. Remember Jasper, Texas? I know that the three men were not affiliated with the KKK per se, but there actions were similar to ones the KKK used in the past.

In Maryland in the recent months, the KKK wanted to adopt a highway litter control measure. The state, which incidently has a large concentration of black people (although not in the area where the KKK wanted to do the litter control), vetoed the measure saying that they could not have a litter control site. This was taken through the courts which said that the state could not exclude groups from state run activity even if their politics differ from those of the majority. In order to keep the state in compliance with the law, Maryland ended its Highway Litter control program. This is just bad. I believe that the KKK should have the right to pick up litter, march in parades, etc; however, if they did have the ability to adopt a highway litter control area, I know that I damn sure would have dumped all my trash in the area every time I passed it. I would not have been alone in that either. They revoke the membership of people in the litter control program if they are unable to keep their site clean. If they were able to do that after a few months, I would stop, they would have proven to me that they were serious about their intention and that they were trying to put out something positive.

I am in a group called the Radical Faeries and we have gone to KKK rallys that have been in the area. We basically went to take publicity off of the KKK and try disperse the evil energy. We dress up in strange, colorful costumes/makeup and basically let ourselves flame. It is a statement against the group, plus it shows the ridiculousness of the whole thing. I should say that overall the KKK people ignored us but the TV cameras focused on us. When they asked us what we were doing there, we said that we were just trying to de-emphasize the evil work being done.

Back to the issue of marchers in the St. Patrick's Day Parade. The parade is inclusive of all political/social backgrounds. (Remember Irish Democrats, Irish Republicans, Irish Musicians, even Fans of Ireland etc) The only real qualifications to be in the parade are to be Irish, enjoy Irish things, or be drunk and claim to like St. Patrick. This is not a completely inclusive parade. And like Gay Pride parades, one need not be gay in order to march in the parade. For both types of parades, one just needs the desire.

Sqrlcub

08-05-1999, 09:38 AM

If I ever have the grave misfortune of being at a KKK parade, I hope the Radical Faeries come.

Seriously! You guys sound like a breath of fresh air, and I love the idea of dispelling the hate. Do you have magic wands?

I am being totally serious. I am a straight white female, but I want to be a Radical Faerie. Can one be a Radical Faerie in spirit?

(Of course, it doesn't have nearly the impact when a straight white girl flits about in a tu-tu as it does when a grown gay man does.)

In case anyone is reading any sarcasm into this post, rest assured, I'm serious. The Radical Faeries sound great to me because they make a strong political point with humour and creativity. I'm all for that!

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08-05-1999, 09:40 AM

Alphagene raises a good point (even now that I have found out where that icky name comes from), the SPD parade is all about diversity and different groups. If you're going to let the policemen and all the other "groups" have a float, don't stop gays having one. If you don't want the gays to have one, then the policemen shouldn't have one. If the policemen shouldn't have one, perhaps the Irish shouldn't set themselves apart and have a parade at all, and all of a sudden you are left with nothing. If you are going to have a parade all about groups, whether they be Irish, Puerto Rican, poodle owners or Ford drivers, then let everybody take part.

Just to muddy the waters a little more, last year there was a pretty het-up debate in Amsterdam regarding whether or not gays should have their own part in the annual Rememberance Day march which commemorates the fallen of the two world wars. The marchers are almost entirely veterans, with others lining the streets. The debate became pretty inflamed, but in the end gays were not given their own "unit"; it was deemed that the march commemorated the men and women who had made the ultimate sacrifice and laid down their lives for their countries, and it was felt that by recognising the sacrifices of gay soldiers in this special way the sacrifices of the others were made to seem less valuable.

The example isn't strictly speaking comparable to the SPD parade as most people would agree that when you have laid down your life for your country, your sexual orientation, colour or anything else is secondary to that; however, as only veterans marched, regardless of whether they were sappers, pilots or cooks, it points to a possible solution. Since all the people marching in the SPD parade are Irish, kind of, why have these groups at all? Don't let the gays have their float, but don't let the policemen or the freemasons have theirs either, after all, one group isn't more Irish than the other right? Do I get the Seeing The World Through Rose Tinted Glasses Award?

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It only hurts when I laugh.

08-05-1999, 10:05 AM

sigh....

SqrlCub, I find it offensive that you've seemingly decided that I'm some sort of anti-gay basher. Please read my posts. I have said absolutely nothing that says that gay people should hide their sexual preference at all costs. I've just said that maybe a parade isn't the best place to do it. I also believe that a parade isn't the place to push for abortion rights, or declare the death penalty to be inhumane.

So we've both offended each other. We're even.

Alphagene, I've been to plenty of parades that don't piss people off. 'round here, parades are usually filled with things like 4-H groups, antique car clubs, etc. I have yet to see anyone pissed off because the Future Farmers of America have a float going down Main St.

Another thought: Let's say there's a Gay Right's Parade going on. Not a St. Patrick's Day Parade, or Thanksgiving Parade, but totally Gay Rights. Should the Christian Coalition be allowed to have an anti-gay right's float? IMO, no, they shouldn't. For the same reason I think the highly emotional issues shouldn't be allowed in the St. Patrick's Day parade. It takes away from the basic theme of the parade.

Dirty Devil, thanks for your support. I tend to agree with you - the world would be a better place if the Irish Gay could march and it was no more of a deal than the Girl Scouts. But we're not there yet.

So, with that, I'm signing off of this debate. I seem to be doing nothing but convincing people that because I object to one Gay Rights issue that I'm some sort of a close minded semi-homophobic idiot. You guys will never see my point, I'll never see yours. Thanks for the debate.

08-05-1999, 10:48 AM

If they're simply Irish, and are not trying to increase awareness of homosexuality, why do they point out that they're gay? Why not just march?

Yeah! And break up that group of 4H club kids! And over there! That marching band! DISPERSE!!! How DARE you group together with your peers to show that your group supports the parade!!!

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08-06-1999, 12:37 AM

I seem to be doing nothing but convincing people that because I object to one Gay Rights issue that I'm some sort of a close minded semi-homophobic idiot.

It just seems like your viewpoint is that gay people can march in the parade as long as they dont flaunt their gayness. And that your idea of flaunting is merely identifying themselves as homosexual.

As someone who has Irish ancestry, I find it disgusting that Irish homosexuals are made to feel that they have no place among people of Irish descent. Homosexuality, as well as coming from an Irish heritage, is just one aspect of an individual's personality.

Should the Christian Coalition be allowed to have an anti-gay right's float?

Not if the parade is about gay rights. A homophobic float (which would be interesting to see...) would go against the entire purpose of the parade. IMO, it is also a float focused on hatred. Homophobic is anti-gay.

Your point is apparently that a Gay Irish group goes against the purpose of the Irish parade. But gay is not anti-Irish.

the world would be a better place if the Irish Gay could march and it was no more of a deal than the Girl Scouts. But we're not there yet.

My viewpoint is that we will never get there if we do things like refuse to let gays march in the SPD parade. We didn't wait for bigots to become comfortable eating with blacks before we integrated southern lunch counters. Hatred won't vaporize on its own. Maybe it's just MHO, but ignorance should be confronted and challenged directly. We can't just crack a window and wait for it to dissipate.

Well, you have removed yourself from the debate, Athena, so I guess I won't hear a rebuttal from you. But I'd rather have gays march in the SPD parade than live in a world whose only parades involve the 4H and antique cars.

SqrlCub

08-06-1999, 10:57 AM

Leslie said, "I am being totally serious. I am a straight white female, but I want to be a Radical Faerie. Can one be a Radical Faerie in spirit?"

Of course anyone can become a Radical Faery. The group is mostly made up of gay men, but in DC women can join too. It is primarily a religious group (all faiths are welcome as long as there is tolerance.) with political undertones. Politically we strive to achieve equality for everyone whilst dispelling hatred. Pretty simple, huh? Anyway, a basic premise of the group is, that if you allow yourself to become complacent then you will allow yourself to be taken advantage of once more. This is not just a gay thing, it is a human thing.

Athena said that we were not arguing the same thing. I think we are arguing the same thing but in different words.

To paraphrase an earlier statement: If the only requirement to march in the parade is to be Irish then there should be no contingents.

I wholly agree with that statement. It would be nice, but it would not work because human nature requires that we organize into a more discernable fashion. This also would not work if there were floats in a parade because the different factions of people would probably not fund one gargantuan float that tries to encompass everything; rather, they would fund several smaller floats that are more appropriate for themselves. With that said, I would really like to see a parade of just marchers walking under a unified symbol of "Irishness" in this case. It would show an element of caring about their cultural diversity and (to be sappy) an essence of brotherly love for all that is Irish. This is contrary to what SPD is portraying now which is loving all that is Irish unless it is gay.

SC