Crossing Borders: Can you tell?

[Zeldar]

The What's your tri-state area? (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=368368) thread got me to wondering about another phenomenon I have noticed when crossing the Tennessee/Alabama border on I-65, which I did again just this week. You can almost see the geography change and I don't mean just the road surface. I can't quite describe all the features but it is almost palpable.

Can you see a big difference in other border crossings?

For those of you who live near a border between two states, countries, time zones, or other artificial demarcations, expound on how that line makes you relate to the entities on either side.

I have stood on the point on a pathway in Cumberland Gap Park (see some photos of the area (http://www.ajfroggie.com/pics/cumberland-gap/)) where TN/KY/VA meet and it's not all that evident where one stops and the other starts. I've never been to the Four Corners area, but would like to before it's all said and done. Does anybody know of a place where more than four geographical entities touch each other?

Let this thread serve as a "jabber joint" for this sort of geographical concept. Hijack away!

[Boulter's Canary]

The What's your tri-state area? (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=368368) thread got me to wondering about another phenomenon I have noticed when crossing the Tennessee/Alabama border on I-65, which I did again just this week. You can almost see the geography change and I don't mean just the road surface. I can't quite describe all the features but it is almost palpable.

Can you see a big difference in other border crossings?

For those of you who live near a border between two states, countries, time zones, or other artificial demarcations, expound on how that line makes you relate to the entities on either side.

I have stood on the point on a pathway in Cumberland Gap Park (see some photos of the area (http://www.ajfroggie.com/pics/cumberland-gap/)) where TN/KY/VA meet and it's not all that evident where one stops and the other starts. I've never been to the Four Corners area, but would like to before it's all said and done. Does anybody know of a place where more than four geographical entities touch each other?

Let this thread serve as a "jabber joint" for this sort of geographical concept. Hijack away!

Same thing happens with some English counties. Crossing from Hampshire into Dorset, the scenery changes. Likewise Devon/Cornwall.

[Fish]

My tri-state area would probably be Washington, Oregon and Idaho.

Crossing into Oregon means crossing the Columbia river, and... uh, yeah, you kinda notice it.

Crossing from eastern Washington into Idaho means you're climbing into the Rocky Mountains. Same thing, I guess.

Those demarcations aren't exactly artificial, so I can't give you a better answer. :)

[ZebraShaSha]

If you drive from NC to SC to GA on 85 south, you can kind of tell a difference, but it takes a little bit. You can usually tell by the amount of litter, the quality of roads, and the various road structures. Otherwise, I can't think of any other distinct borders, except for possibly the southern Jersey toll bridge from MD. YMMV.

[The Batman]

I live in (you guessed it) Tijuana and cross the border into San Diego almost every day. The difference between the two cities is extreme.
San Ysidro, the community closest to the mexican border, is considered the ugliest and poorest part of San Diego county and it is still a hell of a lot better and prettier than the parts of Tijuana next to the border.
The downtowns of both cities have the biggest differences. San Diego's downtown is very pretty and clean with lots of skycrapers and historical 1930's style buildings. Tijuana's, however, is mostly rundown two-story structres with lots of graffiti and constantly congested with traffic.

[Anaamika]

If you go from Albany, NY to Massachussetts you hardly notice it. Same with Connecticut.

Vermont, however is distinctly different...more country, and prettier, IMO. And the people are instantly different too.

I love Vermonters.

[jimmmy]

For a while in the 80's when the infamous Marion Barry and his less infamous successor were Mayors of DC there was, on certain days, a very marked boundary between DC and Maryland - because the District did a poor job of organizing snow plowing. TV crews would be out showing the boundary lines (literally sometimes the middle of a major artery) where the MD plows had stopped and the district slush/uncleared began.

You know you are in Virginia when you cross the River from DC and MD so the boundary is unmistakable and maybe that plays into a "feel". But I can't pretend there is a HUGE immediate geographical difference

[silenus]

Crossing from Ca to Az, you have to cross the Volorado River. But the landscape on either side is the same: desolate. Ditto the border between Ca and NV, The only way to tell you have crossed the border is the casinos 30 feet on the Nevada side! :D

[GorillaMan]

Same thing happens with some English counties. Crossing from Hampshire into Dorset, the scenery changes. Likewise Devon/Cornwall.
Some, yes, but not around here. North Essex looks very like south Suffolk, north Suffolk like Norfolk, and so on.

Regarding road surfaces, there definitely used to be one section of a road into Northern Ireland which crossed the border several times (or actually, the border wiggled about and crossed the road several times), and the only indication was the change from smooth tarmac to potholes hell. It's probably changed since then (this was back when Ireland was still the poor neighbour)

I've only been to Holland twice, and once was by accident. We were travelling by coach through Belgium, and the drivers missed their intended exit from a motorway. There wasn't another one before the border. We only noticed what had happened because we spotted a couple of signs in a different language, and asked the drivers about it when we next stopped. There's nothing else (other than perhaps a 'welcome to the Netherlands' sign) to indicate the border.

Time zones - the Greenwich meridian obviously has a marker at, ummmm, Greenwich. But at various other locations up and down the country, often on small little roads, there's markers of one kind or another of its location.

Basel Airport - actually in France rather than Switzerland, you choose which country's immigration to pass through as you leave the baggage hall. And on googling for a good link for the Basel tram's excursion into France for a single station, I found this fantastic page: http://grenzen.150m.com/leymenGB.htm (follow it back to the main page for lots of other strange borders)

[jjimm]

Rural Republic of Ireland roads are still awful, I'm afraid, compared to their NI equivalents.

This isn't strictly relevant to the OP, but the most dramatic border differential was when I climbed a hill in Vietnam and looked over the border into Cambodia. The Cambodian fields were yellowing and diseased-looking, while the Vietnamese ones were lush and blooming. Bear in mind too that Vietnam at the time was dreadfully poor. Apparently the China/North Korea border is even more stark.

Anway, that old "tri-state area" thing - it sounds odd to me. How does it work at Four Corners?

[Shagnasty]

Crossing the Massachusetts border into New Hampshire via I-93, you can tell the difference pretty well. Even though Southern New Hampshire is pretty well populated now (mostly by Massachusetts ex-pats), it seems more typical New Englandy and the atmosphere becomes very different after you have gone 15 miles or so.

I will submit Massachusetts and New Hampshire as the bordering states with the biggest ideological and philosophical viewpoints. It is readily apparent to the eye as well.

[Cartooniverse]

While driving on Rt. 80 westbound, when you cross from Pennsylvania into Ohio, my god do you know it. The entire topography shifts.

[dalej42]

I live in Texas. I can tell the difference immediately most of the time.

Texas into Mexico. Obvious

Texas into Louisana. Yes.

Texas into Arkansas. Yes

Texas into New Mexico. Yes

Texas into Oklahoma. Not really, unless you're a road sign geek like I am. Also, the service roads end.

[Otanx]

Does South Korea to North Korea count? I haven't crossed it, but I can tell you the border is *very* noticable with the barbed wire, and armed guards and such.

-Otanx

[Ranchoth]

Crossing from Ca to Az, you have to cross the Volorado River. But the landscape on either side is the same: desolate. Ditto the border between Ca and NV, The only way to tell you have crossed the border is the casinos 30 feet on the Nevada side! :D

One other sign I've noticed, crossing from CA into Nevada...the road quality immediately improves. (It sure feels/sounds a lot better, anyway.)

[silenus]

One other sign I've noticed, crossing from CA into Nevada...the road quality immediately improves. (It sure feels/sounds a lot better, anyway.)

Wow. I feel the exact opposite. It drive from Primm to Vegas really bugs me because of the road noise. I get this persistant whine from the composition of the paving material. Really annoying. It stops about the time you get to the top of the rise and look down on Sin City.

[Kid_A]

Ontario to Quebec?

Everything turns to some crazy language. Still haven't figured that one out yet.

[Waenara]

Crossing from southern Alberta into northern Montana, there's a difference - it's hard to pinpoint why exactly. The only obvious change I saw was that although the geography is similar, and they seem sparsely populated, Montana has more power lines and fences when you're "in the middle of nowhere," and Alberta seems less "built up" in that way.

[Martini Enfield]

The biggest change on the QLD/NSW border is the roads. Nothern NSW's roads aren't in quite as good shape as QLD's, but you'd have to live in the area to notice.

If you cross at Coolangatta/Tweed Heads, there's also an ever so slightly "tired" atmosphere to the NSW side of the border (they're 900kms from Sydney, and not part of Queensland, so they do tend to suffer a bit as a result).

However, if you cross somewhere a bit more rural, then the only change you'll notice is the sign on the road which says "WELCOME TO NEW SOUTH WALES"...

[flurb]

If you drive from NC to SC to GA on 85 south, you can kind of tell a difference, but it takes a little bit. You can usually tell by the amount of litter, the quality of roads, and the various road structures. Otherwise, I can't think of any other distinct borders, except for possibly the southern Jersey toll bridge from MD. YMMV.

Crossing from VA to NC on 85 South is even more jarring. For some reason, the Interstate is fairly evenly paved with asphault right up to the NC border, at which point the road become pitted concrete with half-assedly tarred over strips where the sections join. You get that "tha-THUMP" noise from your tires for a good 40 miles.

[Julius Henry]

The Mississippi River make a very impressive boundary.

[Zeldar]

The Mississippi River make a very impressive boundary.

Indeed so. I've mentioned how Tennessee and Missouri share the distinction of bordering the most states. They "border" each other, but only by virtue of the Mississippi. That barely counts since one must drive considerable distances to find a bridge that gets you from one state to the other. Unless there are new ways of crossing since my latest maps, there's the bridge on I-155 near Dyersburg and Caruthersville and nothing else actually connecting those two states.

Memphis may feel more kinship with Arkansas because of a nearby bridge, but the rest of the western portion of Tennessee is sort of isolated from Arkansas and Missouri.

Not just that, but the Mississippi is constantly readjusting its path and whatever map one refers to is probably out of date as to just where the river's path is this week. Seeing how many islands and mud bars there are along the TM/Mo border just illustrates the way the river does its thing and anybody living in those lowlands is probably wondering which state they are in today.

[Alessan]

I can usually tell when I'm crossing a border, what with the minefields and armored Humvees and electrified fences and the people on the other side who want to kill me and all.

[Zeldar]

Another thing that bugs me is how the weather people refer to the "Mississippi Valley" or the "Ohio Valley" or the "Tennessee Valley" as a kind of shorthand to refer to some vague geographical area. The "Gulf Coast states" makes more sense in a way because it's pretty obvious which states have a border on the Gulf. But all one must do is to drive inland maybe 100 miles and the relationship to the Gulf is way less noticeable unless it's hurricane season and storms still pack a big punch that far inland -- and more.

But when it comes to these various "valleys" to the big rivers in the Mid-South I never can tell just what area is under discussion. Take the Tennessee as an example. After being formed near Knoxville by the confluence of the Holston and French Broad, it meanders more-or-less east to west for a while in East Tennessee, then north to south into North Alabama, then east to west across North Alabama, then south to north across Tennessee (forming a natural boundary between West and Middle Tennessee) and on across Kentucky to the Ohio at Paducah. There are all the TVA (Tennessee Valley Authority) dams and lakes along its course so that the "river" per se is sort of hard to find as distinct from those other bodies of water almost anywhere along it. And there are indeed some obvious valleys associated with the river at various places along its course. But the notion of a valley that accompanies the river is just hard to envision. There are places along the West/Middle Tennessee boundary where there are still larger and more significant valleys between the hills a mile or less from the river. Surely the river is at most incidental to their origin anf formation.

What's this "valley" shorthand supposed to connote?

[madmonk28]

The border between Iraq and Kuwait has this no man's land. You've left one country, but haven't entered the other. There are houses and people living in this zone, I don't know what their nationalities is.

Same thing between Kosovo and Macedonia, but there are just some cafes and stores on the zone.

Also, when you head north from Baghdad to the northern part of Iraq, the Kurds have a border that looks like an international border with troops and a blocked roadway. My friend thought we had hit the Turkish border.

[Polycarp]

Obviously, any river or mountain-crest border is going to be a clear defining point. My impression is that the OP is looking for line-on-the-map borders that correspond to some distinct difference.

A few notes: It's been decades since I crossed the New York-New Jersey border in the Rockland-Orange County area, where you drive across a line on land, but I distinctly remember there being a clear difference in the "built geography" ambience between the two states. Likewise going south on I-81 from New York into Pennsylvania, there is an actual sense of difference which is hard to define but definitely present. First, the humidity in PA seems higher, more inclined to mist; second, there is a real difference in landforms, as the New York side is geomorphologically the western foothills of the Appalachians (equivalent to east-central Tennessee and Kentucky) while one is plunged into the mountains proper a short way into Pennsylvania.

In the heart of the winter, the Virginia-North Carolina border is obvious, because through a coincidental quirk of nature, the line between "normally with snow in the winter" and not follows the state border, arcing north to make the Tidewater Metro complex snow-free and south to include the Blue Ridge and Great Smokies in the snowy area, but for the majority of the arbitrary straight-line border, it happens to define the "we get snow for a bit most winters" break point.

Likewise, the Georgia-Tennessee line on I-75 seems to fall at the point where one leaves the Appalachians proper and enter rolling foothills country, though that may be just a misperception on my part.

While I have never been there in person, I've formed the impression that the border between Michigan's Upper Peninsula and neighboring Wisconsin also corresponds to a significant socio-economic break, with the UP being a mix of quasi-wild and small-town mining communities and Wisconsin a more populated agricultural-rural character more typical of the Midwest in general. I may be wrong on this, though.

[Anaamika]

I can usually tell when I'm crossing a border, what with the minefields and armored Humvees and electrified fences and the people on the other side who want to kill me and all.
Ah. Michigan to Ohio, then?


;)

[amarinth]

My tri-state area would probably be Washington, Oregon and Idaho.

Crossing into Oregon means crossing the Columbia river, and... uh, yeah, you kinda notice it.

Crossing from eastern Washington into Idaho means you're climbing into the Rocky Mountains. Same thing, I guess.

Those demarcations aren't exactly artificial, so I can't give you a better answer. :)I wouldn't call it a "tri-state" area the way the teeny tiny northeastern states are a tri state area.

Oh, and the other border you can cross into, you definitely notice because of the border guards, signs saying "Arret," and kph markers everywhere.

[TheLoadedDog]

Crossing from New South Wales into Queensland is weird, IMHO. The northern part of NSW is very Queensland-esque in appearance. It's all banana plantations and such, and looks decidedly sub-tropical. And the bit of Queensland immediately across the border is more like NSW, there's just a half-arsed sort of eucalyptus vibe happening, so it feels like you're crossing the border backwards. Also, I didn't notice any sign at the border, so I was driving for a few minutes unsure of which state I was driving in.

Crossing into Victoria is hard to miss because, not only are there signs, but the border is a big river. Even without signs or the river, you'd know anyway because the road surface suddenly improves a zillion per cent.

[Cunctator]

Crossing the border from New South Wales into the Australian Capital Territory always used to be obvious (apart from the big sign) because the road immediately became better: better maintenance, better line markings etc.

[elmwood]

I-90 along the souh shore of Lake Erie, it's easy to tell what state you're in after you've driven it a few times.

Ohio: wide median with a consistent width, few billboards.

Pennsylvania: very straight, narrow median and right-of-way, many billboards (though not as much as you would see in Southern states), an Appalachia-like feel (lots of mobile homes, run-down properties, etc visible from the road).

New York: gently curving parkway-like feel with an extremely wide median of variable width and a wide and right-of-way, billboards only on the Seneca reservation, much shorter trees than in PA or Ohio.

The start of billboard clutter is a very good indicator of where a state line is.

I-25: Colorado - no billboards; Wyoming - everywhere
I-25: New Mexico - some billboards; Texas - yee-haw!
Missouri - billboards absolutely everywhere; Iowa, Illinois, Kansas - much less common
Ohio - not many billboards; Michigan - everywhere

[Ludovic]

Likewise going south on I-81 from New York into Pennsylvania, there is an actual sense of difference which is hard to define but definitely present. First, the humidity in PA seems higher, more inclined to mist; second, there is a real difference in landforms, as the New York side is geomorphologically the western foothills of the Appalachians (equivalent to east-central Tennessee and Kentucky) while one is plunged into the mountains proper a short way into Pennsylvania.Similarly, going from NY to PA on I-15 you leave the "Southern Tier" and get into Pennsylvania's real mountains (even though this doesn't happen right at the border.)

And the housing layout in Pennsylvania's small towns seems different. There doesn't seem to be as much of a front lawn in most small towns in Pennsylvania: you can almost tell you're in NY when there is a front lawn even when the house is on a hill.

[davenportavenger]

I can always tell when I pass from PA into Ohio. The roads instantly become smoother. Yay Penndot! Not!

[elmwood]

And the housing layout in Pennsylvania's small towns seems different. There doesn't seem to be as much of a front lawn in most small towns in Pennsylvania: you can almost tell you're in NY when there is a front lawn even when the house is on a hill.

I was going to say the same thing.

On the NY side of the border, roads seem wider, houses in villages and towns are on larger lots, and there's a feeling of spaciousness. In PA, villages and towns seem more crowded, and roads seem much narrower and cramped. Houses are much closer to the road. In small PA villages and towns, rowhouses are more common; on the NY side of the border, they're rare.

The PA side of the border also seems more Appalachia-like and "rugged." Huge "YEAR ROUND HUNTING" billboards greet those driving into PA at many crossings. There's more "rugged" businesses on the PA side - truck dealers, gun shops, chainsaw dealers, and the like. Mobile homes are more common on the PA side.

[elmwood]

Sorry for the immediate followup.

The other PA thing I've noticed; in rural areas, along state roads, there's large-ish wooden shelters with ads posted on the side, spaced about a mile or so apart. The shelters look the same everywhere in the state; there's almost no variation in design. I've never seen such shelters in other states. When I see those shelters, I know for sure I'm in PA.

[Zeldar]

One of those things that helps to recognize the change from Alabama to Tennessee is how the pines of Alabama give way to the cedars of Tennessee. Not that there aren't both varieties in both states, it's just that the dominant conifer shifts almost at the state line. Seeing a big stand of pines in Tennessee, especially in Middle Tennessee, gives me the impression that they were planted and didn't come up naturally.

In the Deep South states as one nears the coast it's Spanish Moss and Live Oaks, but this rarely helps to define a border area.

Surely you've seen those maps that indicate the range of a tree, a plant, a bird, or some wild animal like wolves, coyotes, armadillos, etc. I have wanted to find the borders of those zones and start exploring to see if the item in question actually quits appearing beyond those points. There are even maps like that for soil types and rocks. I guess one could use those maps to chop down a tree that had grown up illegally in the out-of-range zone? Or even better if you try to transplant a "foreign" tree in the out-of-range zone, it would just die on its own.

If an out-of-range bird flies out of its range, it just dies and falls to the ground. I suppose that would be a way to locate the boundary: just look around for a line of dead birds.

Maybe they should modify those range maps for things like possums, coons, and other frequent roadkill, by indicating that they don't live near roadways. But I guess that would be too finicky.

[BobLibDem]

I always thought that driving I-75 south, the geography changes markedly at the Ohio-Kentucky border and again at the Kentucky-Tennessee border. The flatness of Ohio starts to give way to hills as you approach Cincinnati, then the hills of Kentucky eventually give way to the rock formations of Tennessee. Then when you hit Geogia, that red clay is very much evident everywhere.

Even within a state, when one crosses the Mackinac Bridge and enters Michigan's UP, the difference in geology is striking.

[Terminus Est]

I can always tell when I pass from PA into Ohio. The roads instantly become smoother. Yay Penndot! Not!
Similarly from PA into MD. Those Maryland roads are smooth, smooth, smooth. The difference between the NY and PA road surface is less distinct, but there's a noticeable lack of constant road work on the NY side.

[gallows fodder]

I can always tell when I pass from PA into Ohio. The roads instantly become smoother. Yay Penndot! Not!
Hee! You can always tell when you cross from Maryland into PA via Rt. 15 (the road to Gettysburg), because the road starts rattling your bones all of a sudden. PA roads have to be the worst I've ever seen (and I say that with love, since that's my home state).

Now I live in Montana, and I can tell when I pass into Wyoming going south to Sheridan or Gillette -- the Wyoming back roads are red and/or have a different quality of black-top. Also, and I could be just imagining this, the terrain and plant life seem a little different: Wyoming seems to have sage brush that grows in larger clumps.

I have to share these pictures I took last year on the way from my town in southeastern Montana to Gillette, WY (very northeastern part of the state):

Desolation in Montana (http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j216/graziaplena/MontanardtoGillette.jpg) vs. Desolation in Wyoming (http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j216/graziaplena/WyomingrdtoGillette.jpg)

Notice any difference? *laughs the maniacal laughter of the Extremely Isolated*

Seriously, though, there is a difference in terrain. Terrain in northern Wyoming. (http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j216/graziaplena/Wyoming.jpg) Terrain in southeastern Montana. (http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j216/graziaplena/CusterNatlForest1.jpg)

[Hanna]

I live on the Minnesota-Wisconsin border and there isn't an obvious difference in topography between the states. MN is more developed since it is so close to the Twin Cities. WI is not far behind, with this area of the state being among the fastest growing.

However, I went on a road trip this last week and here is what I encountered on the interstates:
Wisconsin: free
Illinois: pay
Indiana: pay
Ohio: pay

Obviously I could tell the difference there. I prefer the toll free Interstates of MN/WI.

[The Mad Hermit]

Sorry for the immediate followup.

The other PA thing I've noticed; in rural areas, along state roads, there's large-ish wooden shelters with ads posted on the side, spaced about a mile or so apart. The shelters look the same everywhere in the state; there's almost no variation in design. I've never seen such shelters in other states. When I see those shelters, I know for sure I'm in PA.

If I'm reading you right, the shelters are school bus stops. I looked for a pic, but couldn't find one to link to.

[elmwood]

If I'm reading you right, the shelters are school bus stops. I looked for a pic, but couldn't find one to link to.

It's strange, because those same shelters are nonexistent in New York and Ohio. In PA, they all seem to share a standardized design; a lean-to with three solid walls and a completely exposed front.

[dalej42]

The start of billboard clutter is a very good indicator of where a state line is.

I-25: Colorado - no billboards; Wyoming - everywhere
I-25: New Mexico - some billboards; Texas - yee-haw!
Missouri - billboards absolutely everywhere; Iowa, Illinois, Kansas - much less common
Ohio - not many billboards; Michigan - everywhere

I 25 never enters Texas. I 40 runs east west though New Mexico and Texas.

[mrald]

Oh yeah I can tell, once you leave Arkansas the roads improve and the construction stops. Unless you are headed into Memphis, then the construction gets worse. :D

The deer quit jumping into your car as well.

[elmwood]

I 25 never enters Texas. I 40 runs east west though New Mexico and Texas.

I meant I-10. I-25 merges into I-10 in Las Cruces and continues south for a bit, before heading east into the Big Empty.

[Voyager]

When I lived in NJ I'd cross into PA on I-95 all the time, and hardly noticed a difference. In California I cross into Nevada around Lake Tahoe, and the difference is a crapload of casinos right on the border. Hard to miss that.

In California, you can you've crossed county lines by road conditions - Alameda is a lot better than Santa Clara, on I880 at least. In NJ I could tell township boundaries by how well they did snow removal.