Can you skin someone and leave them alive?

[Anaamika]

Ok, a sick little topic I know but I've been curious since I saw the Dark Crystal when I was a kid, and I just read it in a short story by an author I'm just getting to know.

I'm willing to accept accomodations. I mean, a partial skinning, or maybe only the upper layer. And modern medicine's intervention, of course.

Is there even the remotest chance of this? If yes, then how and under what circumstances? Would the skin grow back?
If not, then what does "flaying alive" mean?

[Mississippienne]

I've seen examples on those Medical Incredible shows of people being afflicted with nasty diseases that slough off 90% or more of their skin and survive.

[FlyingRamenMonster]

My understanding is that taking off all the skin (assuming you do a perfect job and don't rupture any blood vessels) is like a full-thickness burn over 100% of your body. You'd be alive immediately following the act, but no guarantees after that. Treatment would be hard because there'd be no skin available for grafting. Cell cultures and artificial skin could work though. I think you could theoretically survive but it would take a lot of luck and probably wouldn't happen. You'd lose a lot of fluid and be at huge risk for infection.

Oh, and here (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=364193&highlight=full+thickness+burn+skin) is a thread about something that pretty much amounts to what you're describing. Ick.

[Leaffan]

If not, then what does "flaying alive" mean?

Whether you're a brother
Or whether you're a mother,
You're flayin' alive, flayin' alive....
Ooo, ooo, ooo, ooo........

[CalMeacham]

Presumably you could if you replaced the skin with something else that could perform the same office. They've been working on various synthetic skin things for burn patients, but I think human skin from the burn victim him/herself (perhaps eked out by putting in small cuts and "expanding" the area) is still the preferred choiice.


Have a look at Fredrick Pohl's novel Man Plus for a science fiction treatment of flaying someone alive and replacing their skin with an alternative meant to stand the rigors of an alien planet.

[kanicbird]

Didn't the Japaneese experement with this on captured POW's during WW2?

[WhyNot]

Wait. Who was skinned alive in The Dark Crystal? :confused:

[The Great Sun Jester]

Notes From The Field:
Well, that didn't go very well. One "no" so far. I'll try again later and report back.

[Anaamika]

Wait. Who was skinned alive in The Dark Crystal? :confused:
Wasn't there that dinosaur thing, that was originally on the bad side, and they rupped his hide from his body? Then he helped Frodo...er...Willow...er...I can't remember, the good guy. That was the first place I'd ever heard of it.

[CalMeacham]

I can't recall anyone getting skinned alive in the Dark Crystal, but I'm sure one guy gets skinned alive after solving the Evil Rubik's Cube in the first Hellraiser movie, and there's a skinned woman in the second. In fact, at least partial skinning seems to be a running theme throught the Hellraiser series. I'm just not sure about the "alive" part.

[Sattua]

I think that in Dark Crystal, they only rip off his clothes. He does yell a lot while it's happening, but he's fine immediately afterwards--and picks up a scrap of cloth to hold over himself.

As far as skinning alive goes, the major problems are fluid loss and infection. If you can control those two factors, the person will survive; however without serious modern medical intervention, the person won't survive.

[Antinor01]

Note to self - NEVER EVER get on Anaamika's bad side.

[cruel butterfly]

Wasn't there that dinosaur thing, that was originally on the bad side, and they rupped his hide from his body? Then he helped Frodo...er...Willow...er...I can't remember, the good guy. That was the first place I'd ever heard of it.
I think she's talking about that Skekse (sp?) who helped Gen. I think the other Skekses were just stripping him of the raiments that indicated his "rank" among the others.

All of the Skekses would look like that if they weren't wearing clothes.

[Anaamika]

I think she's talking about that Skekse (sp?) who helped Gen. I think the other Skekses were just stripping him of the raiments that indicated his "rank" among the others.

All of the Skekses would look like that if they weren't wearing clothes.
Seriously? Becaus then I have been going through 20 some-odd years with the impression that they did indeed flay his hide.

Wow, what an impression for a kid to walk away with. And FTR, I was not possessed of an overly morbid imagination so that must really have seemed like what it was!

[DocCathode]

Wasn't there that dinosaur thing, that was originally on the bad side, and they rupped his hide from his body?.

After the Skexis leader dies, the Garthim master and chancellor (can't remember his name- Skelor? Imskex? Nelkris?) engage in a ritual duel called Haskekah. The Garthim master wins and becomes the new leader, the other Skexis fall on the chancellor tearing of his jewelry, clothing, and feathers. When the Gelflings meet him at the ruins, the chancellor isn't skinned- any Skexis in his underwear looks like a diseased vulture.

Back To The OP

IANAMedical Doctor- But OTTOMH

Skin keeps us warm, holds in fluids, is a physical barrier to infection, and is connected to a whole bunch of blood vessels.

Burn patients, and people suffering from outbreaks of a kind of psoriasis that leaves them temporarily skinless (mostly anyway. They still have the innermost layer of skin. But this thin layer is not enough to keep out fluids, germs etc) can be temporarily covered in a special plastic.

If you want to flay some one and keep them alive without using the wonders of modern medicine, you want a room about eighty degrees, with a humidifier, and you should thoroughly clean everything beforehand. I have no idea how you would minimize blood los from the removal of skin. Presumably, there are places you could clamp and cauterize.

Historically, flaying alive meant that rather than skinning a corpse, you started with a live victim. They were not expected to survive flaying by more than a few minutes. Flaying was a (relatively) long and painful way to die.

[A.R. Cane]

In 1972 I had a crush wound to my left lower leg. This required a skin graft, which they took from my inside left thigh. I didn't see the device, but the doc described it as being like a large set of hair clippers. It took a layer of skin about four inches wide and about ten inches long from my thigh. They put a spreader between my knees so I couldn't bring my legs together, or roll over. I also had a frame to keep the bedcovers up off my body. The room was a sterile area and everyone had to follow sterile procedure. On one ocassion something touched the skinless area, I don't remember if I inadvertantly touched it w/ my hand, or the sheet fell on it, but I instantly lost control of my bladder. It's hard to describe, but the closest I can think of is loosing a fingernail. As I recall it healed over in about a week and got less sensitive as each day went by. Just to make things interesting, I developed a staff infection during this time and they were givning me massive doses of some antibiotic, which I also developed an adverse reaction to. I also had a visit from a shrink who was asking a lot of strange questions. When I finally asked him what his visit was all about, he informed me that if they couldn't stop the infection within a short period they were going to have to amputate my leg. Fortunately that didn't happen.
If much skin were removed, I think your chances of survival would be very slim, especially w/o intensive medical care.

[DocCathode]

That's what I get for not previewing. On consulting the official comic adaptation.

Garthim Master Skekung challenges Chamberlain Skeksil to the duel of Haakskeekah.

The large photos in the back confirm that all the other Skeksis look like that, but wear more clothes.

Re Hellraiser

The first two films make it clear that those who escape Hell and return to earth are kept alive, at least at first, by supernatural means. At first, Frank doesn't even have a complete skull or ribcage. His later statement "My nerves are starting to work again" can only mean that previously his nerves were not reporting pressure, texture, temperature, etc. He didn't have the necessary parts to live, and what parts he did have weren't functioning.

[astro]

Ok, a sick little topic I know but I've been curious since I saw the Dark Crystal when I was a kid, and I just read it in a short story by an author I'm just getting to know.

I'm willing to accept accomodations. I mean, a partial skinning, or maybe only the upper layer. And modern medicine's intervention, of course.

Is there even the remotest chance of this? If yes, then how and under what circumstances? Would the skin grow back?
If not, then what does "flaying alive" mean?


See

Toxic Epidermal Necrolysis in response to drug reaction - What's the mechanism? (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=364193&highlight=skin)

[WhyNot]

Oh, goodness. Yes, he was stripped of his garb, not his skin. The weird thing is that I now remember that I, too, thought he was being skinned as a kid. It wasn't until I saw the movie as a grown up maybe 10 years ago that I realized it was just his clothes.

[Anaamika]

Oh, goodness. Yes, he was stripped of his garb, not his skin. The weird thing is that I now remember that I, too, thought he was being skinned as a kid. It wasn't until I saw the movie as a grown up maybe 10 years ago that I realized it was just his clothes.
See? It's not just me! Even as a kid I thought it was an awfully adult topic for a supposedly kiddie movie. I'm so embarrassed. :)

[Jake]

Homer voice: mmmmm Flay Mignon! /Homer

[Anaamika]

Homer voice: mmmmm Flay Mignon! /Homer
When I played Final Fantasy 9, you could rename your characters. One was called <blank> Yan, the blank part being the part you named. So you could call him Killer Yan, or whatever.

I called him Flaming Yan and giggle about it to this day. Don't get it? Say Flaming Yan aloud.

[gabriela]

I'm here to tell you, when you work on a dead body with a sharp knife, you cannot distinguish the layers of the skin. You can't peel the dermis off the epidermis; you can't do anything except divide the subcutaneous fat. Sometimes you hit muscle by mistake.

Granted, dead people don't bleed, but that just means flaying a live person is bloodier. And bloodier means harder to see your work. Slipperier, too.

So you aren't going to be able to distinguish between a second and third degree flaying the way you can in a second and third degree burn. Difference between the two being, in third, everything is burned away down to the fat; there's nothing from which skin can regenerate. In second-degree burns, the surface skin is all burned away, but the little dips of skin that follow the roots of hairs into the deep tissue are still intact; they can regenerate skin, if the person is kept from dying of infection or dehydration or the sequelae of pain. Most large second-degree burns are grafted because it takes too frigging long to regenerate the skin. I've seen small second-degree burns growing back in, when I was training as a surgery resident. Little evenly spaced dots of pink on the red background. They grow back at a millimeter a day. That's slow.

And of course there's scarring.

Another difference between third and second degree: Third degree burns are painless. That's because the nerves are gone. I was once led to see a patient with a third-degree burn of his back. The doc who was teaching me knocked on the black leathery spot with his knuckles. "Feel anything?" "No." Second-degree burns, on the other hand, are described as exquisitely painful. Large second-degree burns can cause waves of pain to run through the person if the nurse lifts the sheet and mere air currents cross over them. Pain itself can kill people by wearing out their hearts.

Now the applicability of burns to flaying is in the famous burn charts for percent of the total body surface area burned. There's a rough formula: Chance of dying equals age plus total percent burned. Anyone can survive a one percent burn. An eighty year old will probably die from a twenty percent total body surface area burn. A fifty year old will die from a fifty percent body surface area burn. A thirty year old will die from a seventy percent burn. Only an infant under one can survive a 99% body surface area burn, and even then, the baby'll probably die.

So the chance of death in complete flaying is 0%.

Hope this helps.

Gabriela

[Skammer]

According to Catholic tradition, St. Bartholomew was flayed alive. He didn't survive, however. In some medieval paintings he is portrayed as carrying his skin in his arms.

[gabriela]

I meant, "100% minus (age plus total percent body burned)".

Drat.

[DocCathode]

I'm here to tell you, when you work on a dead body with a sharp knife, you cannot distinguish the layers of the skin. You can't peel the dermis off the epidermis; you can't do anything except divide the subcutaneous fat. Sometimes you hit muscle by mistake. So you aren't going to be able to distinguish between a second and third degree flaying the way you can in a second and third degree burn.

I thought we were discussing a total removal of skin. If you wanted to remove everything but the bottom layer, couldn't you use the skin harvester used for getting grafts?

[gabriela]

Heck, I dunno, Doc; I have no access to the skin harvester. Haven't been in the same room with one since my surgery residency, (mmphm) years ago. I use a sharp scalpel. What do you use?

[DocCathode]

Wouldja believe, my razor-sharp wit?

[gabriela]

Wouldja believe, my razor-sharp wit?

I'm jealous.

[psychonaut]

PETA are known for posting some pretty horrific videos of animal abuse on their website. I saw one a few months back which depicted an animal being skinned alive. I don't recall what kind it was—maybe a rabbit or a raccoon. At any rate, I assure you it was quite alive and writhing in pain after its skin was removed. How long a creature in such a state could survive is another question. Maybe if you put it in a warm, sterile, saline solution for the rest of its life it would be OK.

[Kizarvexius]

According to Catholic tradition, St. Bartholomew was flayed alive. He didn't survive, however. In some medieval paintings he is portrayed as carrying his skin in his arms.

Michaelangelo includes an image of St. Bartholomew in The Last Judgement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Last_judgement.jpg) in the Sistine Chapel. The saint is holding the flaying knife in one hand, and a human skin in the other. The real kicker is that the warped and distorted face is said to be the painter's self-portrait.

[ElvisL1ves]

[hijack]When I played Final Fantasy 9, you could rename your characters. One was called <blank> Yan, the blank part being the part you named. So you could call him Killer Yan, or whatever.

[Bart voice] I'm Esteban Yan of the Tampa Bay Devil Rays! [/Bv]
[Milhouse voice]And I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos! [/Mv]


C'mon, Itchy skins Scratchy alive all the time, among other things, but Scratchy is always intact for the next episode. Of course it's possible, right?

[gigi]

http://www.bodyworlds.com/en/pages/home.asp

Warning: flayed penis may not be safe for work.



--gigi, whose brother calls her "Skexis" to this day.

[KidCharlemagne]

I always wondered this too. Flayed where you can see the actual muscles in the face. Creepy.

[Rubystreak]

In the Gene Wolfe book Shadow of the Torturer, one of the torturers flays a woman's foot. Just her foot, as punishment for something. I wondered how she'd live through that and what would happen to her foot, Would the skin ever grow back? Was this just a slow, nasty way to kill her? It didn't seem like she was intended to die, just to be tortured. They were treating her foot medically as if she would recover, somehow. I've always wondered about that.

[Chronos]

Now the applicability of burns to flaying is in the famous burn charts for percent of the total body surface area burned. There's a rough formula: Chance of dying equals age plus total percent burned. Anyone can survive a one percent burn. An eighty year old will probably die from a twenty percent total body surface area burn. A fifty year old will die from a fifty percent body surface area burn. A thirty year old will die from a seventy percent burn. Only an infant under one can survive a 99% body surface area burn, and even then, the baby'll probably die.I don't think that's quite right... If that were the formula, then a 51-year-old who burned the tip of her left little finger would be more likely than not to die from it.

[si_blakely]

I seem to recall (in "Silence of the Lambs" I think) a discussion of recreational flaying. Part of the idea is to hang the flayee (a much better word than victim) upsidedown, so that blood pressure to the brain is maintained for longer and the victim will remain conscious further through the procedure.

Google "The Flaying of Marsyas" by Titian - great detail, and illustrates the concept, which seems to be understood by the artist. I can only speculate that flaying as a punishment was more common in the past.

And I do not believe that anyone could survive a proper complete flaying - as the post above indicates. If bloodloss does not kill you, infection soon would.

Simon

[ryobserver]

In the Gene Wolfe book Shadow of the Torturer, one of the torturers flays a woman's foot. Just her foot, as punishment for something. I wondered how she'd live through that and what would happen to her foot, Would the skin ever grow back? Was this just a slow, nasty way to kill her? It didn't seem like she was intended to die, just to be tortured. They were treating her foot medically as if she would recover, somehow. I've always wondered about that.

(Adding a title to the short list of Books I Don't Want to Ever Read)

I don't see why you couldn't live through that, unless you died of shock from the pain, or so many blood vessels were nicked that you bled to death. People suffer hideous burns and scalds to the feet and survive. There will be various degrees of scarring and disability (possibly permanent), depending on the depth of the burn, whether it's a burn or a scald (scalds are usually worse), whether there's infection, and so on; but loss of foot skin is survivable. Note that a serious burn will probably cost you at least some toes, and contracture of scar tissue may leave you with a smaller foot.

If all else fails you can always amputate the foot. That had to be done to a chemistry student my father knew, who had tried to turn a doorknob while holding carboys of sulfuric acid under each arm.

[Rubystreak]

(Adding a title to the short list of Books I Don't Want to Ever Read)

Well, the title refers to a guild of torturers who engage in acts of torture on orders from the ruling class. They are like doctors and enact these punishments in precise, clean, and only causing the pain that's necessary to the punishment. Perverse, yes, and tough to read in parts, but the series goes on for a long time after the torture bits.

I don't see why you couldn't live through that, unless you died of shock from the pain, or so many blood vessels were nicked that you bled to death.

So if the person survives the flaying, and surgical precision used to prevent excessive blood loss, the person would very likely live?

People suffer hideous burns and scalds to the feet and survive. There will be various degrees of scarring and disability (possibly permanent), depending on the depth of the burn, whether it's a burn or a scald (scalds are usually worse), whether there's infection, and so on; but loss of foot skin is survivable. Note that a serious burn will probably cost you at least some toes, and contracture of scar tissue may leave you with a smaller foot.

Well, I'm not talking about burns. I'm talking about having all the skin of the foot taken off. Is that the same as a burn? Would the skin grow back from the incision line down? Or would it generate from the scab that forms over the foot? Could normal function be restored, or would the foot always be painful or distorted by scar tissue?

This is pretty gross for me, who is pretty wussy about such things, but since I read this book, I have wondered how the woman in question would recover from the flaying.

[athelas]

Now the applicability of burns to flaying is in the famous burn charts for percent of the total body surface area burned. There's a rough formula: Chance of dying equals age plus total percent burned. Anyone can survive a one percent burn. An eighty year old will probably die from a twenty percent total body surface area burn. A fifty year old will die from a fifty percent body surface area burn. A thirty year old will die from a seventy percent burn. Only an infant under one can survive a 99% body surface area burn, and even then, the baby'll probably die.

So the chance of death in complete flaying is 0%.

What if you got a fetus?

[Anaamika]

I'm still following the discussion, folks, and am utterly fascinated. Just have nothing else to contribute.

[gabriela]

What if you got a fetus?

Fetus outside womb equals dead anyway. Throws off the chart, I know.

You sick puppy.

[gabriela]

Well, I'm not talking about burns. I'm talking about having all the skin of the foot taken off. Is that the same as a burn? Would the skin grow back from the incision line down? Or would it generate from the scab that forms over the foot? Could normal function be restored, or would the foot always be painful or distorted by scar tissue?

This is pretty gross for me, who is pretty wussy about such things, but since I read this book, I have wondered how the woman in question would recover from the flaying.

Let's say you take the skin of the foot off the way I would do it, with a knife. (A scalpel is pretty much a razor blade attached to a knife handle.) You're not going to be able to separate the layers of the skin the way a burn can take off the epidermis and leave the dermis; you'll have to take all the skin off, leaving bare subcutaneous tissue, fat, and tendons, and some exposed muscle. So it isn't like a burn. The skin will not regenerate. The little hairs that dip down into the dermis with skin following them down into the dips are gone. You will not survive this unless you either have your foot amputated, which is eminently survivable, or have your whole foot grafted with skin, which is less survivable due to infections and pain, but which leaves you with a foot. However, it won't be a functioning foot if you want to run or dance or walk tightropes; you will only be able to hobble on it, because of all the scarring, and you will feel pain every time you take a step. Amputation with a prosthesis might be a better idea.

Yes, it is survivable.

What about that is wussy?

[WhyNot]

Fetus outside womb equals dead anyway. Throws off the chart, I know.

You sick puppy.
Not exactly. Extremely premature infants are born without skin. You can't actually see the muscles, there's a thin membrane covering them, but the nurses told me it wasn't really skin. They keep them moistened with an ointment called Auqafor until their skin grows in.

Picture of WhyBaby with "pre-skin", moistened with Aquafor. (http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rhiannon_dreamsnake/detail?.dir=10a4&.dnm=c906.jpg&.src=ph)

Another, closer-up. (http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rhiannon_dreamsnake/detail?.dir=10a4&.dnm=5e0e.jpg&.src=ph)

And yes, it all grew in just fine. (http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rhiannon_dreamsnake/detail?.dir=3e83re2&.dnm=7b37re2.jpg&.src=ph)

[WhyNot]

Damn, hit submit too soon.

You can't rub or stroke a micropreemie until their skin grown in - the membrane is very delicate and tears easily, like tissue paper. You have to hold their little hands very carefully without rubbing, like this. (http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rhiannon_dreamsnake/detail?.dir=10a4&.dnm=5b5d.jpg&.src=ph)

[Anaamika]

Not exactly. Extremely premature infants are born without skin. You can't actually see the muscles, there's a thin membrane covering them, but the nurses told me it wasn't really skin. They keep them moistened with an ointment called Auqafor until their skin grows in.

Picture of WhyBaby with "pre-skin", moistened with Aquafor. (http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rhiannon_dreamsnake/detail?.dir=10a4&.dnm=c906.jpg&.src=ph)

Another, closer-up. (http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rhiannon_dreamsnake/detail?.dir=10a4&.dnm=5e0e.jpg&.src=ph)

And yes, it all grew in just fine. (http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rhiannon_dreamsnake/detail?.dir=3e83re2&.dnm=7b37re2.jpg&.src=ph)
Oh, my. She grew up just fine. She is positively lovely! You must be so proud.

Give her a hug for me. How old is she now? Just look at her stuffing her little face!

[Rubystreak]

Let's say you take the skin of the foot off the way I would do it, with a knife. (A scalpel is pretty much a razor blade attached to a knife handle.)

Here's the line from the book: "A simple surgical incision was made below the knee, and its edge taken with 8 clamps. Careful work... permitted the removal of everything between the knee and the toes without further help from the knife."

I don't know how the peeling v. scalpel use changes this, if at all. In the book, there are no skin grafts or anything. Don't know if they amputated the foot/leg or not in the end. It's not really that important to the plot, though I am kind of curious.

What about that is wussy?

What about what is wussy? I said I was wussy for being so squicked out by even just reading about this subject, which is probably why this scene stayed with me for years after reading the book. It's not a very long part of the book. It makes me feel sympathetic pain just reading it. ::shiver::

[WhyNot]

Oh, my. She grew up just fine. She is positively lovely! You must be so proud.

Give her a hug for me. How old is she now? Just look at her stuffing her little face!
She's awesome. 15 months on May 9th. That was blueberry pie on Easter. Seemed wisest to take off her dress for dinner! :D

[DocCathode]

I don't know how the peeling v. scalpel use changes this, if at all.

You raise a good point. An educated flayer doesn't need to keep cutting to remove skin. If you cut in the proper places, you can peel a person the same way you would remove a sock or glove. I remember that I first learned this while watching a documentary on a boy from a thirdworld country born with an extremely disfiguring condition. The plastic surgeon made incisions above the hairline, peeled the skin like a bannana, reshaped the boy's eyesockets, and pulled the skin back into place.

Come to think of it, I'm surprised no hunters have posted to this thread. Some of these people have skinning knives. They've got to have knowledge that transfers to humans.

[DocCathode]

Erythrodermic Psoriasis (http://www.psoriasis.org/about/psoriasis/erythrodermic.php). I can't help but think of the words of Doctor Nick Riviera "Calm down sir. You're going to give yourself skin failure!"

[clairobscur]

Google "The Flaying of Marsyas" by Titian - great detail, and illustrates the concept, which seems to be understood by the artist.


There's also "the judgement of Cambyse" by David (http://images.google.fr/imgres?imgurl=http://www.wga.hu/art/d/david/1/cambyse2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.wga.hu/html/d/david/1/cambyse2.html&h=940&w=812&sz=126&tbnid=3SyFjbSqAprtkM:&tbnh=147&tbnw=126&hl=fr&start=1&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcambyse%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Dfr%26lr%3D%26rls%3DDVXA,DVXA:2006-10,DVXA:fr)

[gabriela]

Damn, hit submit too soon.

You can't rub or stroke a micropreemie until their skin grown in - the membrane is very delicate and tears easily, like tissue paper. You have to hold their little hands very carefully without rubbing, like this. (http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rhiannon_dreamsnake/detail?.dir=10a4&.dnm=5b5d.jpg&.src=ph)

She is lovely. And I hate to disagree with what they told you. But that "very thin membrane" was skin. I put fetal skin under the microscope all the time. It's there from NINE WEEKS of gestational age. It's got epidermis, dermis, nerves, vessels, skin appendages, and corpuscles. It has all the complex makeup of that very complex organ that shines on your face. The reason they told you to think of it as a membrane was how fragile it was. It was horrendously immature skin, and so they were wise to make you treat it unlike skin. They were telling you an emotional truth that would guide you to take proper care of your beautiful and vulnerable micropreemie. But it was skin, and that's why she wasn't the same as someone flayed.

Sorry to have to disagree. I'm boarded in peds path and can't let an error of fact like that go by without saying something. But I do reiterate it was an emotional truth, and wisely said. Just not a fact.

[gabriela]

Here's the line from the book: "A simple surgical incision was made below the knee, and its edge taken with 8 clamps. Careful work... permitted the removal of everything between the knee and the toes without further help from the knife."

I don't know how the peeling v. scalpel use changes this, if at all. In the book, there are no skin grafts or anything. Don't know if they amputated the foot/leg or not in the end. It's not really that important to the plot, though I am kind of curious.


Hey, I have done this, not on a foot (never had to peel a foot) but on a face, dozens of times. And on a scalp, hundreds of times. Careful work, sure. You are still flaying off the entire skin - the dermis and the epidermis, and a little of the subcu. Some areas have more areolar connective tissue than others, which creates a plane where it's easy to work; if you work in those areas, though, you're peeling off the whole subcutaneous layer, too, since the plane is deep to the fat. You couldn't do this on the abdominal skin – it's hard enough to peel the skin/fat layer off the muscles; there is no areolar layer.

Peeling with a knife is peeling with a scalpel is peeling like a hunter.

I want to give you an illustration of the epidermis versus dermis thing to explain why the whole skin comes off when you flay. The epidermis is the transparent outer layer through which you can see tattoo ink. Tattoo ink rests inside macrophages who stay in place in the dermis. After many years, they migrate just a little, which is why old tattoos blur. The outer and inner layers of the skin that can be separated so easily by a burn cannot be separated by any flayer with a knife. You get the whole skin off with a knife. Nothing to regenerate.

First degree burn is like sunburn. Second is a blister burn - have you ever blistered yourself from grease or something else? I have. The reason the blister fills with fluid is the living blood vessels in the dermis leak fluid into the heat-damaged skin. The leaking fluid is what lifts the epidermis off. It operates on a microscopic level at a thousand microscopic sites at once. The macroscopic knife edge cannot do this.

People who die in fires do not blister. They lose whole chunks of skin, dermis and epidermis. The fat chars. Fourth degree burn, we sometimes call it. There is no lifting off of the epidermis.

People who die in water develop postmortem skin slip that looks like blisters. It's because putrefying internal fluids leak into the skin, which is softened by water on the outside. The epidermis slips off in multiple areas. If they're over a tattoo, it looks oddly bright and clear, because the transparent outer layer of the epidermis is gone. But I reiterate, from experience. There is no knife that can do this.

I may not be an imaginary torturer's guild member, but I'm coming up on about 3,000 autopsies, and I'm pretty skilled with a knife.

[Rubystreak]

I may not be an imaginary torturer's guild member, but I'm coming up on about 3,000 autopsies, and I'm pretty skilled with a knife.

I bet you are. And I believe you when say you are not a member of an imaginary torturer's guild. Really. ;)

So if a foot was flayed and the person didn't die right away from the shock of the pain, what would happen to the person? Die of infection? Is that inevitable? If the person avoids infection, what would happen to the foot?

[Rubystreak]

Die of infection? Is that inevitable?

To clarify, I should say, inevitable without modern drugs to prevent infection.

[Khampelf]

I may not be an imaginary torturer's guild member, but I'm coming up on about 3,000 autopsies, and I'm pretty skilled with a knife.

Add me to the chorus of those who are very glad you decided to stick around.

{/end spontaneous testimonial}

[harmless]

Can you skin someone and leave them alive?
:eek:
What the hell has your boyfriend done now?

[Ranchoth]

I think it's been covered pretty dang well here, but oddly enough, I actually asked this same question awhile back. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=3822966) :eek:

[WhyNot]

She is lovely. And I hate to disagree with what they told you. But that "very thin membrane" was skin. I put fetal skin under the microscope all the time. It's there from NINE WEEKS of gestational age. It's got epidermis, dermis, nerves, vessels, skin appendages, and corpuscles. It has all the complex makeup of that very complex organ that shines on your face. The reason they told you to think of it as a membrane was how fragile it was. It was horrendously immature skin, and so they were wise to make you treat it unlike skin. They were telling you an emotional truth that would guide you to take proper care of your beautiful and vulnerable micropreemie. But it was skin, and that's why she wasn't the same as someone flayed.

Sorry to have to disagree. I'm boarded in peds path and can't let an error of fact like that go by without saying something. But I do reiterate it was an emotional truth, and wisely said. Just not a fact.
No problem. Sorry to have introduced erroneous "facts" into GQ, and thanks for clearing that up.

(I'm on the waiting list for nursing school, after which I want to become a NICU nurse, so it's nice to know one thing I won't mis-speak when the time comes!)

[chorpler]

PETA are known for posting some pretty horrific videos of animal abuse on their website. I saw one a few months back which depicted an animal being skinned alive. I don't recall what kind it was—maybe a rabbit or a raccoon. At any rate, I assure you it was quite alive and writhing in pain after its skin was removed. How long a creature in such a state could survive is another question. Maybe if you put it in a warm, sterile, saline solution for the rest of its life it would be OK.

That's what I thought of when I read this thread too. That was, I believe, a Tanuki, also known as a Raccoon Dog. I believe it was determined from the speaking in the background that the guy who skinned it alive was paid by the people filming to skin the poor thing alive, just so they could film the horrible process and imply that it was normal practice. I'm all for animal welfare, but that's just disgusting. The sight of that tanuki's eyes looking at the camera while its facial muscles were exposed and twitching, after having suffered through having its skin peeled from its living body, has freaked me out to this day.

This is the sort of thing, when applied to humans, that Allen Candle (or maybe Alan -- I listened to the audiobook from Audible so I don't know how the name is actually spelled in the book) from Spider Robinson's newish book Very Bad Deaths (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/074348861X/ref=ed_oe_h/002-7828464-0397661?%5Fencoding=UTF8) would just love to determine experimentally.

Oh, and right before I read this thread, I read another thread (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=369102), about horror movie survival tactics, which pointed me to the comic strip Chopping Block, about serial killer Butch, where I read this comic (http://www.choppingblock.org/d/20001023.html) just a few minutes before finding this thread. Note the epitaph on the frontmost gravestone.

Here lies HITCHHIKER: Lived for 5 hours with no skin.

How's that for synchronicity, eh?

[FlyingRamenMonster]

In the Gene Wolfe book Shadow of the Torturer, one of the torturers flays a woman's foot. Just her foot, as punishment for something. I wondered how she'd live through that and what would happen to her foot, Would the skin ever grow back? Was this just a slow, nasty way to kill her? It didn't seem like she was intended to die, just to be tortured. They were treating her foot medically as if she would recover, somehow. I've always wondered about that.

I believe the skin removed was from her knee down, leaving her toes, which makes things a bit more serious.

[FlyingRamenMonster]

Oh, whoops, I see that's already been mentioned.

[gabriela]

No problem. Sorry to have introduced erroneous "facts" into GQ, and thanks for clearing that up.

(I'm on the waiting list for nursing school, after which I want to become a NICU nurse, so it's nice to know one thing I won't mis-speak when the time comes!)

Aww, your reply here is so generous. I wrote that late last night when I was cranky and should have been asleep. I worried about my irritable tone in a dream.

I hope you tell the same emotional truth to parents who need it someday when you care for these little endangered miracles of life in the NICU.

My hat's off to you.

[gabriela]

I bet you are. And I believe you when say you are not a member of an imaginary torturer's guild. Really. ;)

OK, it's time for my first ever smiley on the Dope: :D

But no. If I was a guild member, wouldn't you think I'd have been tortured to death by now? Blabber mouth that I am.

So if a foot was flayed and the person didn't die right away from the shock of the pain, what would happen to the person? Die of infection? Is that inevitable? If the person avoids infection, what would happen to the foot?

OK, Rubystreak: are we saying flayed plus no medical care, flayed plus delayed medical care, or flayed plus immediate top-notch medical care?

Flayed leg from knee to toes plus no medical care equals death from shock plus the cardiac stress of pain. It's kind of like my gunshot wound victims who die from a simple lung shot, just because there was nobody around to save them. Any ER can stick in a chest tube and start a large-bore IV on a routine lung shot; there's no reason why they should die (barring if it hits a pulmonary vein or whatever). But if there is no immediate medical care, injuries that wouldn't kill you in an ER can kill you quite dead.

Flayed leg from knee to toes plus immediate medical care equals survival. The best thing to do would be to amputate above the knee. Guaranteed survival plus very little pain afterwards. Trying to save the limb would be close to guaranteed survival, but not perfect because there would be weeks if not months in the hospital, and any time you are that sick that long, infections happen. Some infections you can be salvaged from, others end you up in the morgue.

Flayed leg plus delayed medical care equals chancy survival. Depends on blood loss at first and infections later. Also on your age and shape: the younger and closer to normal weight you are, the more blood loss you can bear before your heart kicks over into a fatal arrhythmia. A twenty-year-old can bear a loss of a thousand cc's whereas an old homeless guy might not be able to handle a pint and a half.

If they amputate, you don't have a foot.
If they don't amputate, you have something that resembles a foot, but it will never work exactly like a foot again, and pain will be your companion with every step you ever take.

[gabriela]

Add me to the chorus of those who are very glad you decided to stick around.

{/end spontaneous testimonial}

Awwww....

[WhyNot]

Aww, your reply here is so generous. I wrote that late last night when I was cranky and should have been asleep. I worried about my irritable tone in a dream.

I hope you tell the same emotional truth to parents who need it someday when you care for these little endangered miracles of life in the NICU.

My hat's off to you.
Hmm...Interesting, I didn't read it as irritable at all, for what it's worth. I read it, if anything, as a bit overgenerously gentle, and as if you were afraid you'd hurt my feelings simply by having more knowledge and experience (not to mention actual...you know...facts.) I wanted to be sure you knew I wasn't offended or hurt by being corrected.

It's kind of nice when the "misinterpreted tone problem" on message boards ends up with people coming across even nicer than they thought, isn't it? Too often people just take offense for nothing at all.

I'm really glad you stuck around, as well. :)