Tell me about MMORPG's...

[Shirley Ujest]

I am such a newbie...

Ten years + surfing and time wasting on the web and I've never knew what MMORPG meant ( or all the other thingies like that..LURP/LARP or something.) I just figured it was some kind of Star Trek based dorkathon thing. Feh.


I was reading a [size=1]romance[/b] novel set in VR and MMORPG world and it intrigues me. Not that I think I will find Mr. Right or something, the whole thing just sounded like nerdy little fun. It was pirate based. YARRRRR!


Tell me about your geeky past time and where you slack off at. (Do these kinda things cost money, she asked hesitantly.)


I feel so exposed right now.

[Snarky_Kong]

Ok, well, I'm most knowledgable about WOW (World of Warcraft) so I guess I'll say a little about that. WOW is an mmorpg set in a fastasy setting similar to, oh Middle Earth or Forgotten realms. It's the same universe as the other Warcraft games if you're familiar with that.

When you start out you have to create a character. You pick the race (orc, human, undead, elf...) and the class (mage, priest, warrior...) You also pick a server on which to play. I think there are about 60 servers at the moment with a couple thousand players on a server. After you have your character you get quests and kill things. As you do this you level up and can choose different talents to customize your play style. There are also trade skills in which you can create weapons, armor, and potions. You can join a guild which is a group of people with similar interest and that help each other out. I play around 20 hours a week, but you can play far less and still not feel too left out. I also often just treat it as a chat program. I'll sit in one spot and talk with my friends but be doing other things at the same time.

Most mmorpgs cost around $15 a month but there is at least one (Guild Wars) that is free. Others have different setting such as futuristic space combat (EVE, Star Wars Galaxies) or superheroes (City of Heros/Villians) but the one thing they have in common is they're addictive. I know people that have felt the need to uninstall WOW when an exam is coming up to resist the urge. So if you're thinking about it, try to get a free trial first if possible.

[Kiros]

Most of the popular MMORPGs, with a few notable exceptions, are set in high fantasy worlds; the exceptions are mostly in sci-fi and comic book type stuff. There is very little out there right now that "breaks the mold", as it were.

An extremely simplified way of going over the genre history is something like this:

- Ultima Online took MUDs (text-based RPGs that were the ancestors of today's MMOs) and evolved them to the graphical level. It was the only real option until...
- Everquest took the genre and showed that it could be popular and extremely profitable, and sort of brushed at the possibilities while getting the MMO-craze into full swing with its success. EQ1 was a flawed game, but nothing in its generation came particularly close to breaking into its market share - it held on to a commanding position in the MMO market for over five years while "EQ-killers" came and went. So for all that EQ1 had issues, they did something right. Of course, next comes...
- Blizzard, with World of Warcraft. From the start of the project, it was obvious that this would be a success - established fan base from the RTS series, company with a sterling reputation, thoughtfully designed game after looking at all the previous successes and failures. Even given expectations of success and ridiculous hype, however, WoW still managed to outperform it all. Blizzard made the genre easily accessible, brought it completely into the mainstream. While many EQ1 veterans (myself included, I admit) criticize the game at times as "too easy", it is absolutely undeniable that they have taken what was previously a "hardcore gamer niche" and brought it to the masses on a scale that hadn't been thought to be possible.

Those three games are the "main line" of MMO evolution, as it were. During EQ1's heyday and even moreso now, competitors come and go - very few of them stick, and there have been some pretty spectacular failures. Notable for their (relatively limited compared to the above, but still profitable) successes have been Dark Age of Camelot (a PvP-oriented fantasy MMO), City of Heroes/Villains (a comic-book-superhero themed MMO that tapped into another portion of the market), Everquest 2 (a disappointment by the standards of WoW or EQ1, but still more successful than 95% of the genre's offerings), and Guild Wars (which isn't strictly a true MMO but has found unexpected success). The failures are far more numerous, most notably Star Wars Galaxies; despite that particular license, they still managed to screw it up.

EVE-online deserves a separate mention because it actually manages to work outside the established mold. It's the most fun of any of the current generation, IMO, and there has been a thread or two here championing it over the past six months. It's too complex to really explain in this kind of overview, but suffice it to say, it's the one that doesn't fit in with all the others, in a good way. It has a killer learning curve but it's worth it.

Pretty much all of the decent MMOs cost in the $15/month range. They almost all have free trials available right now as well; if you were looking to break into the genre, you'd want to try WoW, EVE, and CoH in roughly that order, depending also if you have a preference for fantasy, space, or superheroes, respectively. There's also a recently released Dungeons and Dragons online which is supposedly pretty good, especially if you have a D&D history and some people to play with. Give each of them a week, see what floats your boat, the whole deal.

My geeky past? I spent *looks embarassed* about five and a half years playing Everquest, from when it came out in April 99 to Octoberish 2004, with varying degrees of no-life-itude during that time period. After that, I played WoW for about six months after it came out before I got bored with it; I played EVE for a couple of months and loved it, but decided that my time was better spent in the real world. That's the other big thing about these games - they are EXTREMELY addictive. If you find one you like, it'll be an order of magnitude more addictive than your current favorite computer game, and it'll suck up as much time as you let it. WoW is much more friendly than most to playing-less-time (especially if you can get a SO to play it with you!), but even that game will take up as much time as you can give it.

I had heard something about a pirate-based MMO a while back, but I never heard anything following that up, and it's not on my radar for "potentially big things coming out in the next year or so". But I was never a big pirate fan, so I could well have just missed it :)

Hope some of that rambling helps. I'm just slacking off in the real world until Vanguard comes out sometime late this year, so if you have any more specific questions, ask away. I know for sure that we have a number of people still playing both WoW and CoH/V on these boards.

P.S. World of Warcraft is virtually mainstream at this point, so if you want to build up your geek cred, you want EVE, D&D Online, or Everquest 2 :D

[Kiros]

EVE-online 14-day free trial here (https://secure.eve-online.com/ft/?aid=100972&nogreet=1)

Dungeons and Dragons Online 7-day free trial here (http://trial.ddo.com/)

Everquest 2 7-day free trial here (http://www.trialoftheisle.com/)

WoW and CoH seem to offer sporadic free trials as well as "guest pass" services... as I don't actively play either, I can't really help with that.

[Fish]

City of Heroes is the one I play mostly, off and on these days.

In it you play a superhero in Paragon City (or a villain in the Rogue Isles, should you have the expansion/addition City of Villains). You have superpowers and fight for truth, justice, and apple pie, or quite possibly for some other tasty snack treat if you wish.

Unlike the Everquest model there is no continuous grind to achieve a newer, bigger, brighter, flashier sword. All enemies everywhere drop tokens called Enhancements, with dozens of different aspects (Accuracy, Range, Healing, Damage, Defense) that can be slotted into your powers to make them more like how you want 'em. However, you do not defeat a bad guy and take his flak jacket, or kick a mugger's butt so you can take his guns, so in that regard, there's no continuous quest for more "stuff."

Since there is no loot, almost nothing is particularly rare. Nearly everything that can be found in the world from defeating a Bad Guy can also be bought at a store. Some people lament the lack of rare überstuff because they cannot be demonstrably different and cooler than the pitiful new players who don't have überstuff #158 yet; some say the lack of rare, unobtainable items takes away personal incentive to play thousands of hours with your nose glued to the screen and your urinary tract glued to a Mountain Dew bottle. (Others say this is not a bad thing.)

Also unlike other games there is no attempt to create a player-based economy of crafted items, or a market for gathered-up goods. You need not — and can not — spend hours gathering Flobbean Rat Stink in order to make the 5,000 Measly Potions of Witches Brew that you need to reach Alchemy Crafting Level 2; nor do you spend a day mining Borite Ore in order to have enough Refined Borite to make a dental mirror.

Some people say the lack of crafting means "there's nothing to do!" Others (like the lead designer) says that anybody who wants to sit at a computer and craft imaginary goods like a sweat shop worker needs his head examined.

You can build a secret base where you and your cohorts can hang out and decorate it to your liking.

Cost is $15.00 per month, unlimited hours, eight character slots permitted on eleven servers.

I find it kinda fun since there is PVP (player-versus-player) activity allowed, but only in limited and rigidly proscribed areas. There is, at least in general, a much more cooperative and social atmosphere than I found in Star Wars Galaxies.

Also, I like City of Heroes because it is designed to be fun throughout the life of the character all the way from level 1 to level 50. You begin fighting actual criminals — not rats or worms or zombies. Some MMOs focus very strongly on the endgame, the part where your character is level 75,000 and has hit the end of the advancement charts... now the fun begins, after 750 hours of hard work! Well, that kind of carrot works on some people — not for me.

[Zabali_Clawbane]

Don't forget Anarchy Online (http://www.anarchy-online.com/), a Science Fiction based game that is a success.

[Kiros]

Don't forget Anarchy Online (http://www.anarchy-online.com/), a Science Fiction based game that is a success.

No offense, but only if you broaden the definition of success to "a game that is still operating". The retail release of AO was an unmitigated disaster, it topped out at a fairly pitiful number of subscribers by industry standards, and at this point it's treading water by offering free accounts and in-game real-life product advertising. It is, well, still operating, though, and a few of the expansions have been critically well received - I don't think it has one percent of the subscribers that WoW does, though.

re: the CoH post, I am not qualified to offer an opinion on the game as I haven't played it for any appreciable amount of time - I am only replying to some of what Fish said because that was a pretty passive-aggressive post about the genre in general. I will note that it is perfectly possible to play the rest of the games in the genre (especially WoW, and really all of the games in the current generation - keeping in mind that EQ1 was released in 1999 when many of these game concepts just hadn't been developed yet, so isn't really a fair comparison) in a manner that does not stress the absolute maximum advancement, "powergaming" as it were. I'm not sure CoH should get bonus points for that. On the other hand, I hear it's a fun game to play if you love the idea of a superhero mythos, which is why I mentioned it as one of the games to try in my earlier post.

[N9IWP]

Last year Anarchy Online was free (to both download and play). It was the base game (no expansions).
I found it Ok, but I didn't play a lot and elected not to pay.

To mee the funnest part of COH was character creation. The game itseldf wasn't fun for me after about 3 months. Your milage will probably vary.

Brian

[Shirley Ujest]

These are great.

If there are any more, I welcome info.


Thanks!

[Kiros]

This (http://www.burningsea.com/) is the pirate-world MMORPG that I remember hearing about... I have NO CLUE on the buzz on this game though, whether it looks like it'll be good, how far away from release it is, etc. The website has certainly gotten prettier and a little more fleshed out than the last time I happened upon it, though :)

[Paul in Qatar]

I suppose it goes without saying I cannot play with my dial-up 24,000 bbs connection?

[Otanx]

I suppose it goes without saying I cannot play with my dial-up 24,000 bbs connection?

Not sure about the newer games, but I played EQ1 for 2 years on a 24,400 bps connection without a problem. You arn't going to be able to join 72 of your friends to kill a dragon without any lag, but for normal game play it worked fine. Remember the graphics are all local so all the game servers are sending you is basically draw x at y. It is also compressed. I remember the first year they were constantly tweaking the data stream to make it smaller. EQ2, WOW, etc I am not sure how much bandwidth they require.

-Otanx

[Maus Magill]

One very nice thing about City of Heros/Villians is there are a lot of dopers on it.

IMO, MMOs are more fun when you play with others.

[Athena]

I'm an ex-EQ player, now playing WoW. I've tried City of Heroes (the superhero one), Anarchy Online (the doomed-from-the start scifi one), EQ2 (ugh!), Star Wars Galaxies (ugh x 2!) and most others.

I've been playing WoW now since beta, and while it's not perfect, it's a big improvement on anything else out there.

Nobody has yet mentioned how beautiful the game is. For those of us who are not late teen, mid-20 kewl dudes, the "World" part of "World of Warcraft" is as important as the "Warcraft" bit. The first time I saw Ironforge - a dwarf city built into a mountain - I was awestruck. You run up this ramp to the city towering above you, all stone and snow and frozen spires, and go through this huge portcullis. Once inside, the mountain is hollowed out, and the city is in a ring around a huge forge in the center. You can practically feel the heat from the molten ore that flows like a river through the place. It's truly awe-inspiring.

Same with a lot of other places - the elven lands are soft and forested, filled with wisps and other pretty critters. Taurans (a race of cow people) live in a pseudo American West - think South Dakota or Colorado - and have a culture much like the Native Americans. Humans are right out of King Arthur, with Stormwind, their capitol city rising out of a green forest and done all in white marble.

Scarier places also exist. Between Ironforge and Stormwind lies the Burning Steppes, looking like Mordor and populated with dragons and evil dwarves. The plaguelands were once a thriving human area, but has been overrun by undead and plagued beasts. Want to know how it got that way? Talk to the people in the few safe camps around the area - they'll tell you the history, and maybe send you into one of the ruined cities to try to save some of their buddies.

And that brings us to quests. WoW, and most modern MMOs, are driven by quests. You don't just randomly go out and kill things (although you can if that's what you want to do). You talk to the computer-generated people (called NPCs, short for non-player characters) and they will give you stuff to do. At the beginning, it's usually things like a dwarf wants a certain ingredient to make his Super Dwarven Stout, and unfortunately this ingredient only grows in an area patrolled by trolls. Go get some, and he'll share his stout with you.

As you progress, you get more complex quests, some that form stories as you complete them. I found a couple of elves outside a Tauran village (elves and taurans are enemies in WoW), in which was a big cage full of sprite darters - little butterfly like dragonlings. The elves were very upset at this, and enlist your help to let the sprite darters out of the cage. Once you do that, you're given a sprite darter egg that they found during the rescue, and you have to run around the world trying to find people to tell you how to care for it. Four or five quests later, the egg hatches, and you're rewarded with your own sprite darter as a pet.

Also of note is the social aspects of the games. You tend to meet people, and some nights I log in as much for the chat session as I do for the game. Think of it as a chat board with some monster-killing thrown in, if that's what you like. Some games heavily rely on groups of people to do things - others, like WoW, are possible to solo a lot (but not everything). Either way, a big part of the fun for me is hanging with my buddies. I've been playing games for going on 4 years now with a single older guy living on the West Coast, a thirty-something married woman with 2 kids in Missouri, an early 20s guy who I've seen go from college to wondering what to do with his life to joining the airforce. I've never met any of them, but probably talk to them all 3-4 times a week. Very different people, but for whatever reason we mesh in game and have a good time together.

Personally, games fill in the time for me that other people spend in front of the TV. I've never seen an episode of that Raymond show, don't care about the reality shows, and wouldn't even know things like "Lost" or "24" exist except for the threads in Cafe Society. Nights not spent hanging with the hubby and friends are generally spent in front of the computer. I can't claim that's any great thing, but if I'm comparing it to TV, games are more interactive, stress the brain a bit more, and are superior, IMO.

[Pleonast]

One really nice innovation in CoH is the Sidekick/Mentoring system, where characters of different levels can still adventure together productively. Basically, the game adjusts your level to that of your partner. This makes it very easy to play with your friends, no matter how far ahead or behind they are.

[Balance]

I currently play City of Heroes/City of Villains, and am still enjoying it after nearly two years. I find it to be a comfortable game, with a great deal of flexibility in how you play. Team play is encouraged, but I have yet to find a character that can't play solo, which means that if you only have a little time, you don't have to waste it looking for a team. The combinations of various powersets makes for quite an array of possible playstyles as well--the various Defender powersets play completely differently, for example, even though they're all the same "class".

CoH/CoV, WoW, EVE, and EQ2 represent the more traditional or "mainstream" MMOs. There are others out there. Some of them are interesting, and others are just plain whack. Here are some examples:

Puzzle Pirates (http://www.puzzlepirates.com/) is decidedly not your traditional MMORPG, but I don't know what else you'd call it. You join with your LEGO-looking fellow players in pirate crews, solve puzzles and play minigames to complete tasks, roleplay, and engage other crews or individuals in (also minigame-based) battles.

A Tale in the Desert (http://game1.atitd.com/main.html) is an MMORPG with no personal combat (although they've added a "Rite of Command" that involves commanding troops, I believe). It's more like a massive, cooperative civilization simulator. You gather resources, develop skills, and cooperate to build a civilization--there's even a mechanism for players to create new laws, which code updates will enforce. The ultimate goal is to complete a set of challenges ("The Tests") in various arts and technologies. When all the Tests are completed, the Tale ends. Everything is wiped clean, and a new Tale begins with new Tests (which are partially devised by players).

The Endless Forest (http://www.tale-of-tales.com/TheEndlessForest/) is hard to even call a game. It's more like a multiplayer tone poem or, as the homepage calls it, "a social screensaver". Your avatar in the forest is a stag-like creature with an anthropomorphic face. There's no combat. No advancement. You log in, wander around the forest, maybe graze a little if you feel like it. You communicate with other deer through emotes (animations that express feelings or specific activities) or use magic to temporarily change their appearance. Then you lie down and go to sleep (log off). See "whack", above. :D

[mazinger_z]

Sorry for the slight-hijack, but what do you guys think of the Matrix Online. I remember seeing the ads in my comic books, but I never heard anyone talk about it on here. A cursory search of google leads me to believe that it's still working. When I finally get my computer built, I figure I can play it since my gf is now used to my downtime habits (games, gambling, and porn :))

[lizardling]

Second Life. (http://www.secondlife.com)

[tracer]

City of Heroes is the one I play mostly, off and on these days.

In it you play a superhero in Paragon City (or a villain in the Rogue Isles, should you have the expansion/addition City of Villains). You have superpowers and fight for truth, justice, and apple pie, or quite possibly for some other tasty snack treat if you wish.

Unlike the Everquest model there is no continuous grind to achieve a newer, bigger, brighter, flashier sword. All enemies everywhere drop tokens called Enhancements, with dozens of different aspects (Accuracy, Range, Healing, Damage, Defense) that can be slotted into your powers to make them more like how you want 'em. However, you do not defeat a bad guy and take his flak jacket, or kick a mugger's butt so you can take his guns, so in that regard, there's no continuous quest for more "stuff."
The big problem I have with City of Heroes (CoH) is that it feels like a fantasy roleplaying game with a superhero facelift.

CoH Influence Points = WoW/EQ/D&D gold pieces
CoH Inspirations = WoW/EQ/D&D potions
CoH Enhancements = WoW/EQ/D&D magic weapons and armor

You fight 18th level street thugs with enough hit points to withstand several energy blasts, you defeat something by hitting it enough times that its hit points go to 0 (and by pretty much no other means), and you gain "experience levels" after you kill -- excuse me, "defeat" -- enough of them.

I'm someone who cut his teeth in the superhero genre on the Champions tabletop roleplaying game, which clearly showed off all the flaws of the various D&D-like class/level/hitpoints systems by doing almost everything differently. City of Heroes could have been the Champions of the MMORPG world, but instead, it's little more than the Villains & Vigilantes of the MMORPG world.

[Gozu Tashoya]

Sorry for the slight-hijack, but what do you guys think of the Matrix Online. I remember seeing the ads in my comic books, but I never heard anyone talk about it on here. A cursory search of google leads me to believe that it's still working. When I finally get my computer built, I figure I can play it since my gf is now used to my downtime habits (games, gambling, and porn :))
Didn't see this post before, but from what my coworker says (and he's played pretty much every MMO around - even the Korean golf MMO beta), Matrix Online was just wall-to-wall bad. YMMV.

[Lute Skywatcher]

City of Heroes could have been the Champions of the MMORPG world, but instead, it's little more than the Villains & Vigilantes of the MMORPG world.The folks at Cryptic originally planned to go with a Champions-like system but decided that the vast majority of players wouldn't "get" it.

[Anastasaeon]

Everyone has presented some great information on MMORPGs. If you're interested, play some free trails and see what suits you best. It varies enormously for everyone, as you can see.

Me? I'm an EQ/EQII geek. Though I left EQ for EQII and never looked back (I thought I would desperately miss my old characters, but... I don't. EQII turned out to really be my thing), I still remember it fondly - though it was flawed, I've heard there have been many improvements, and it is quite fun. It was my first MMORPG, god, five or six years ago, now? Maybe seven... oh god. It's a hard addiction to break. :D

I am a casual gamer, so EQII is perfect for me. I'm not into grinding. I like questing, and EQII enables me to level all the way up to uber by questing alone, if I so feel. I also like to solo - easily done. I won't be slaying any uber-6-group-raid-mob dragons on my own, but there's plenty of solo gameplay and phat lewts just for little old me. If you really, really need a group or guild, it's not that tough. My guild has only four actual members (and our various alts), and we're level 25. We're all real life buddies. EQII is very friendly to the casual gamer, as well as to the hardcore grouping grinders. Or whatever. Very flexible. Plus, they are coming out with the expansion I've been begging for since I saw my first pixie trickster as a total n00bcake back in original EQ... way back when I was a teeny baby bard: they are releasing a new playable race: the fae. Now leave me alone to revel in my sheer fruity geekiness.

Other than that... the graphics are awesome. I played WoW and found it very cartoon-y. It was okay, though. Pretty.

Obligatory show off pictures:

My main character (http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/464/chemist5uz.jpg) is a dark elf assassin, but as you see, is also a chemist in her spare time. Crafting has been made much, much less of a grind than in the past, and player-crafted items are very valuable in this game. Very much worth the time.

My cute as a button (http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/5120/tumtumcat0lc.jpg) halfling wizard "alternate" character, who I play if I get bored of my main. That's her cat. She's also standing in front of a very large statue, by the way. She's short, but not THAT short. Gnomes are shorter. :p

And one more picture to show two things: cool magic carpets, and items you can get from certain holiday events. My main is travelling around on a carpet, and wearing one of the many masks she got for Halloween (http://img275.imageshack.us/img275/2940/cat0tv.jpg) last year. There are many other events - last Christmas (or, in EQII world, "Frostfell") there was a quest that any level could do (all instanced zones, so it is scaled up or down to your current level, so everyone gets experience from it), we all got little Santa caps and a book for our inn room or house. For Easter we got a giant keg to put in our houses - gets your character smashed.

Be careful. One day you might be as big a geek as me. If that's possible. :eek:

[Shirley Ujest]

I am booking marking this thread for reference.


I have been super busy lately, but I want to check some of these out even if I understand -25% of what the heck you are talking about.



If you suddenly don't see me for weeks on end here, send a search party into every game for me...or send a pizza to my house :)

[Anastasaeon]

If you suddenly don't see me for weeks on end here, send a search party into every game for me...or send a pizza to my house :)

In EQII, you can order pizza from Pizza Hut (billed to the credit card used to sign up and sent to your address) by using the /pizza command. ;)

I think. I've never actually used it, but they came out with it sometime last year, if I remember correctly. I don't know if you still can or not.

[Anastasaeon]

I think. I've never actually used it, but they came out with it sometime last year, if I remember correctly. I don't know if you still can or not.

Never mind. You can't do that anymore. I just tried. Said that program has ended. Boo. I wanted pizza.

[Athena]

So, Anastasaeon, have they changed EQII to allow more solo questing? I was in the beta, then picked it up again several months ago - both go rounds seemed to require grouping by about level 7 or so, at least if you wanted to get anything much done.

[Anastasaeon]

So, Anastasaeon, have they changed EQII to allow more solo questing? I was in the beta, then picked it up again several months ago - both go rounds seemed to require grouping by about level 7 or so, at least if you wanted to get anything much done.

Well, I've been playing since release, and my assassin has soloed all the way to level 54 - mostly quests. And they have made it easier and easier to do so. I have a tiny guild, but I play late at night, and the only reason I group up with them is to get some Heritage quests done. I've started several alts, soloed them all to level 25 or more. A wizard (36), a swashbuckler (28), a dirge (25), and an illusionist (25) - never needed to group. I can level them to 25 in about four days, casual, no groups, no grinding - just quests. Very easy.

My assassin is still soloing with no trouble at all, it's just taking longer to get the xp at higher levels and being a casual gamer. Plus, I've been playing my wizard lately. I gained two levels (35 and 36) in an evening of play a couple nights ago. I'm getting ready to ding 37 tonight if I can be arsed. ;)

Ever since they added those cool new faction beginner quests in the beginner cities, getting to level 10 is easy as pie. No more doing all that class choosing garbage; you choose what you want to be from creation now (no more Scout -> Rogue -> Swashbuckler, now it's just Swashbuckler without all that inbetween crap, thank god). More quests, more rewards, more good stuff all around.

[N9IWP]

By the way I was still able to log in and play Anarchy Online, even tho the free period was supposed to be over DEc 31, 2005.

Brian

[AndrewL]

City of Heroes could have been the Champions of the MMORPG world, but instead, it's little more than the Villains & Vigilantes of the MMORPG world.
Agreed. City Of Heroes stuck to the same game model that nearly all successfull MMORPGs followed. It's worked well for them, the game is a financial success, but it's not very superheroic feeling IMHO.

My wife and I are working on the development of a superhero-themed MMORPG which is intended to be based less on combat and leveling, and more on plot and RP. It's based on our combined 25+ years of Champions tabletop roleplaying, and deliberately avoids most standard MMORPG conventions. We are also planning on using the Champions combat rules as a basis for the game's combat system. We don't expect it to be a major commercial hit or in any way competition for City of Heroes in terms of subscribers, as we're going to have a different and somewhat more difficult gameplay, and as a small-budget independant production team we won't have anywhere near the graphical polish or art budget they do.

[Gozu Tashoya]

Just thought I'd bump this thread to bring to light Blizzard's "pass the pipe" free 10-day trial promotion. If you want to try WoW and know somebody who plays, you can have them send you an invitation and a free 10-day trial (the page to do so is linked off the worldofwarcraft.com front page).

If you don't know anyone who plays -- or you just don't hear from them anymore -- feel free to send me an e-mail to the address in my profile.

(In the interest of full disclosure, invitees who end up becoming subscribers earn their referrers a free month of game time. So if you hate me, then don't send me an e-mail. Or don't sign up, whichever.) ;)

[drachillix]

Agreed. City Of Heroes stuck to the same game model that nearly all successfull MMORPGs followed. It's worked well for them, the game is a financial success, but it's not very superheroic feeling IMHO.

My wife and I are working on the development of a superhero-themed MMORPG which is intended to be based less on combat and leveling, and more on plot and RP. It's based on our combined 25+ years of Champions tabletop roleplaying, and deliberately avoids most standard MMORPG conventions. We are also planning on using the Champions combat rules as a basis for the game's combat system. We don't expect it to be a major commercial hit or in any way competition for City of Heroes in terms of subscribers, as we're going to have a different and somewhat more difficult gameplay, and as a small-budget independant production team we won't have anywhere near the graphical polish or art budget they do.


We're all invited to beta test, right :D

[dotchan]

Here's where I get to be a grumpy killjoy and list the things that are not so great about MMORPGs.

It eats up horrendous amounts of time. This has been mentioned in other posts, but even in World of Warcraft it takes forever and a half to level up, finish quests, or just plain run around the map. (In some MMORPGs, this is made worse by an appalling lack of teleportation abilities, low drop rates, and jackasses who farm. See below.)

Game balance can get very problematic. For plot-based MMOs, the later you join, the more backstory you would have to catch up to to know anything about what's going on. For gameplay-based ones, you'd almost have to start over with a new character in order to benefit from any expansions involving shiny new job classes or skill trees. And, of course, as soon as anything proves to be an advantage, overnight a ton and a half of players exploit it, and you're stuck in a cycle of diminishing returns.

People can be real assholes. Somehow, the anonymity provided by the internet gives people the idea that the normal real-life rules concerning etiquette, ethics, and just plain common sense don't apply. Some older players have a very haughty, elitist attitude towards the "n00bs", and purposely make life difficult for lower-leved characters. Some of the newcomers to the game try to appeal to your sympathy by constantly crying about how poor they are and ask everyone they come across for money, items, or healing. Some players hit on other players to the point of crass sexual harrassment (in some of the MMOs I've been in, this has gotten to such a degree that female players take up male characters or select usernames that imply they're lesbians to discourage catcalls). Some players try to cheat the game or other players.

This is better or worse depending on the game, the server, and the time of day. (Evenings and weekends tend to be the worst, in my experience, because that's when all the school-aged teenagers are on.)

I've been looking for an MMO I can drop 1~2 hours a day's worth of gameplay and feel like I'm accomplishing something without hating the world or other people, but so far I haven't been very lucky. (Then again, maybe I've been looking in the wrong places.)

[Dangerosa]

Also, I like City of Heroes because it is designed to be fun throughout the life of the character all the way from level 1 to level 50. You begin fighting actual criminals — not rats or worms or zombies. Some MMOs focus very strongly on the endgame, the part where your character is level 75,000 and has hit the end of the advancement charts... now the fun begins, after 750 hours of hard work! Well, that kind of carrot works on some people — not for me.

CoH has the opposite problem. Many people are alt happy. The first oh, 20 levels or so (and maybe even the first 8-10) are really the most fun, and once you hit the 30s somewhere, it becomes a grind, the character is dull, and its time to see what a different character will do.

[Lute Skywatcher]

I've been looking for an MMO I can drop 1~2 hours a day's worth of gameplay and feel like I'm accomplishing something without hating the world or other people, but so far I haven't been very lucky. (Then again, maybe I've been looking in the wrong places.)Have you looked in City of Heroes/Villains yet?

[Lute Skywatcher]

Agreed. City Of Heroes stuck to the same game model that nearly all successfull MMORPGs followed. It's worked well for them, the game is a financial success, but it's not very superheroic feeling IMHO.

My wife and I are working on the development of a superhero-themed MMORPG which is intended to be based less on combat and leveling, and more on plot and RP. It's based on our combined 25+ years of Champions tabletop roleplaying, and deliberately avoids most standard MMORPG conventions. We are also planning on using the Champions combat rules as a basis for the game's combat system. We don't expect it to be a major commercial hit or in any way competition for City of Heroes in terms of subscribers, as we're going to have a different and somewhat more difficult gameplay, and as a small-budget independant production team we won't have anywhere near the graphical polish or art budget they do.Courtesy archive.org: the original City of Heroes plan (http://web.archive.org/web/20021201081416/www.cityofheroes.com/powers.htm).

[ArrMatey!]

CoH has the opposite problem. Many people are alt happy. The first oh, 20 levels or so (and maybe even the first 8-10) are really the most fun, and once you hit the 30s somewhere, it becomes a grind, the character is dull, and its time to see what a different character will do.

Preach it, brother. Hit 50. Once. Hami-raided. Twice.
I can't even bring myself to grind my gravity controller past 38. It's just so damn repetitive and boring to me now.
Granted, I'm one of those weird types that really likes exploring and storylines in my games, not just 'beat up x number of badies'.

(And, just to drop a name, I'm part of AndrewL's design team. Go me!)

[Who_me?]

Here's where I get to be a grumpy killjoy and list the things that are not so great about MMORPGs.

It eats up horrendous amounts of time. This has been mentioned in other posts, but even in World of Warcraft it takes forever and a half to level up, finish quests, or just plain run around the map. (In some MMORPGs, this is made worse by an appalling lack of teleportation abilities, low drop rates, and jackasses who farm. See below.)

I guess this would depend on your definition of forever and a half. In WoW, it takes about 3 hours to go from level 1 to level 10. From 1 to 60, it took me 19 days of gameplay time... 19 x 24 = 456 hours total playtime. I don't want to get to the end of things quickly, I play to kill time and to enjoy myself. During the week, I generally play a couple of hours per day... on weekends, I'm usually on for a lot longer. Travel time from one end of the world to the other may take 15 minutes, I don't consider that too bad.


Game balance can get very problematic. For plot-based MMOs, the later you join, the more backstory you would have to catch up to to know anything about what's going on. For gameplay-based ones, you'd almost have to start over with a new character in order to benefit from any expansions involving shiny new job classes or skill trees. And, of course, as soon as anything proves to be an advantage, overnight a ton and a half of players exploit it, and you're stuck in a cycle of diminishing returns.

In WoW, you can respec your talents as often as you want... for the price of some gold. You can drop professions and take up new ones whenever you feel like it... for nothing except losing the cash you put into the one you dropped and spending the money levelling up your new one.


People can be real assholes. Somehow, the anonymity provided by the internet gives people the idea that the normal real-life rules concerning etiquette, ethics, and just plain common sense don't apply. Some older players have a very haughty, elitist attitude towards the "n00bs", and purposely make life difficult for lower-leved characters. Some of the newcomers to the game try to appeal to your sympathy by constantly crying about how poor they are and ask everyone they come across for money, items, or healing. Some players hit on other players to the point of crass sexual harrassment (in some of the MMOs I've been in, this has gotten to such a degree that female players take up male characters or select usernames that imply they're lesbians to discourage catcalls). Some players try to cheat the game or other players.

Can't argue with this one, it's a good thing /ignore is a easy command to remember.



I've been looking for an MMO I can drop 1~2 hours a day's worth of gameplay and feel like I'm accomplishing something without hating the world or other people, but so far I haven't been very lucky. (Then again, maybe I've been looking in the wrong places.)

Good luck, it seems that WoW didn't suit you. There are a lot more out there.

[E-Sabbath]

Once you break 30, the game takes off like a whole new world. Fascinating stuff.

Gravity controller, though... that's a tricky one. But the new physics models should make it way more fun.

[ArrMatey!]

I sort-of agree. But notice that I've already been there.
Grav control is a fun power-set, but I'm here for fun new storylines, zones, places to explore and things to find out. Not the same missions over and over, lather-rinse-repeat. I know all the big stories in CoH, and even a lot of the little ones, as I toured every single plaque available in-game and actually took notes on them (Did you notice mayor 'Spanky' was apparently born on Talos Island before Talos Island actually existed? Someone get me a continuity checker, please! ;) )
Games that have places to explore, stories and secrets to learn, that's what I like. My first journey to 50 was great. I was blown away by the 'true nature' of the clockworks when I first learned it. I loved some of the alternate worlds you get to go to past 40. The Hess Taskforce? Fantastic just for the visuals....

But I've done 'em now. Now it's just a grind.

Sadly, I've just agreed to make a scrapper on Pinnacle to help someone else level, as we're losing our blaster, and a defender / tanker combo doesn't move too fast when, at level 37 and 32, we have a total of five attacks between us, only four of which do damage.

[RogueRacer]

Preach it, brother. Hit 50. Once. Hami-raided. Twice.
I can't even bring myself to grind my gravity controller past 38. It's just so damn repetitive and boring to me now.I signed up for the CoV 14 day trial a few weeks ago. I got an email yesterday saying it had expired. I played for about a week and then I sort of forgot about it. It was nice that I could sign on for a half hour and run a mission or two. What sucked was it felt just like the missions I did when CoH first game out. Sure the powers were distributed a little differently, but I can't say that I ever even felt like a villain.

It's such a toss up. Games like EQ take 30 minutes minimum just to get going (travel, buffing, etc.), but the fights seem to have more depth which sort of makes things worth it. WoW was probably the best I've played so far in regards to making the game interesting, but at the same time quick to get into.

[Gorsnak]

I find EVE Online to be very nice for limited playtime. There's no grinding whatsoever. Character advancement is in the form of skill training that takes place in realtime, even when you're not logged in. Well, perhaps I should amend the no grinding whatsoever a bit, because obtaining ISK (cash) can be a bit of a grind if your preferred in-game activities require funding.

It does take forever and a day for characters to develop. This isn't quite as critical as it might be, since even complete noobs can play with and even successfully compete against characters who've been around since the game was introduced. No, the noob won't be successful in a 1v1 match with a veteran, but he can play an important role in a group setting after only a few days.

Where the game shines is in the complete freedom players have to drive the story in much of the universe. Beyond the space ruled by the NPC factions, in the vast reaches of "0.0" space, there are no rules beyond what the players make for themselves. Huge alliances of player corporations make war with one another. Empires are built, civil wars break out, former allies turn knives into the back of their erstwhile friends, anonymous parties pay organized mercenary groups to disrupt the logistics of their enemies. All punctuated by massive fleet battles between hundreds of ships.

It's also got a really kick-ass player-driven market. In some ways it's even more an economic sim than a space combat game. It's near-complete laissez-faire capitalism, and if you passed Econ 101, you can exploit your understanding of how free markets work and make a fortune (if you're so inclined....naturally becoming an economic magnate doesn't involve blowing shit up nearly as much as becoming a front-line combat pilot, which depending on your tastes may be an important factor).

[Tabby_Cat]

Nothing much to add that hasn't already been said, but if you want casual, I think CoH fits the bill. Nothing to do with me being on it, of course. =^^=

I have 2 free trials still, so if you want to try it out, pop me an email.


One thing that hasn't been said here is the community. The reason I've stayed with CoH is because of the community. If you really want to get into the MMO part of the game, you have to connect with the community, and the best way is through the official boards. I play on Virtue, which, I have to say, has the best community that I've seen, ever. It's like a tiny slice of MPSIMS, MMO style.

Have a look! (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=Virtue&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=)

But all I can say is, whichever one you choose eventually, try them all out first. Most MMOs have free trials floating around, and I'm sure we can hook you up with a free trial if you need one.

[amarinth]

I was reading a [size=1]romance[/b] novel set in VR and MMORPG world and it intrigues me. Not that I think I will find Mr. Right or something, the whole thing just sounded like nerdy little fun. It was pirate based. YARRRRR!Um, how was the book? I started it on a vacation when I needed something mindless to read and the vacation ended before the book did (I'm about halfway through). And I haven't picked it up since, and is it worth having along on my next vacation so I can finish it or should I just donate it now?Oh, and the game that she based it on wasn't anywhere near as interesting as it was described in the first 5 or so pages (when the book was somewhat set in reality), but a more boring version of the general idea.

[Balance]

I signed up for the CoV 14 day trial a few weeks ago. I got an email yesterday saying it had expired. I played for about a week and then I sort of forgot about it. It was nice that I could sign on for a half hour and run a mission or two. What sucked was it felt just like the missions I did when CoH first game out. Sure the powers were distributed a little differently, but I can't say that I ever even felt like a villain.
You might want to take another crack at it when Issue 7 comes out (which should be SoonTM). The Mayhem Missions offer a pretty villainous feel, but the real kickers are in the high-level arcs (although Peter Themari's missions can be pretty nasty--"rescue" citizens...then turn them over to the Vahz). I haven't had a chance to play many of them, but one of the early testers of the level 40+ content mentioned a mission that made her cry and refuse to complete it.

[bouv]

One of the things that I think was only touched upon in CoH/CoV is the character creation. I played Star Wars: Galxies when it first came out (do not buy this piece of crap!), and WoW as well, and CoH's character creation blows them both out of the water. Not even a fair contest.

FOr exapmple, in WoW, you have about a dozen or so races to choose from, and six or seven classes. Though not all races can do all classes, so I don't know the total combinatiobs possbile.

In CoH you have five orgins, and then five archetypes. The origins are essentially meaningless, as they only effect certain items (called enhancements) you can use later in the game. They are more for yourseld to give a sense of what your character is. Is he a mutant, magic-user, robot, a etc...But each archetype has five or six power subsets. So right ther you have 25-30 choices of how to start you character, ignoring the origin (which ups it to 125-150, but as said, they are essentially just for roleplaying purposes.)

But the REAL kicker is how to make your character look. To me, it seemed the WoW had about a dozen options each for face, hair, and clothes. And that was it, really. You chose the face, the hair (and any facial hair), and clothes, and color of each. The clothes were (IIRC) a "set." Which is to say, a set of robes, or a tunic and pantaloons. CoH, in contrast, has so many options it's unreal.

There are three "main" sections, head, bosy, and legs, each with it's own set of subsections. Head types include things like normal face, face with mask, face with half mask, helmets, robot heads, monster heads, heads with hats, etc. The there are options like what kind of hat, what the hair looks like, what type of glasses you might want, facial hair, accesories like large ears, scars, antennas, visors, cigars, etc...Most of those have their own colors as well (most items have a primary and secondary color that can be set independantly of any other item.)

The chest and legs have an equal number of bewildering options. There is no limit to what you can make. It's the best part of the game, which is the reason I had dozens of alts when I played. :p