Will they have the guts to film "Princess of Mars" all-nude, as Burroughs intended?

[BrainGlutton]

I'm reading Burroughs' Princess of Mars for the first time, and there's a striking detail: Neither the green Martians nor the red Martians, male nor female, ever wear clothing. Not even a loincloth or cache-sex. They wear metallic armbands and such, and when it gets cold they drape a fur or silk wrap over their shoulders. Otherwise, it's all bareass all the time. (Burroughs assumed Barsoom to have a climate similar to Earth's only milder, with no strong winds and never any rain. Whaddaya want, the guy never even visited Africa, let alone Mars.) A detail I've never seen faithfully rendered in comic-book adaptations. Assuming the movie ever gets made, will they have the guts to be authentic in that regard?

[silenus]

Never going to happen, if for no other reason than most of Hollywood (or the rest of us for that matter) look really stupid naked.

[BrainGlutton]

Never going to happen, if for no other reason than most of Hollywood (or the rest of us for that matter) look really stupid naked.

Nor has there ever been a human culture, however primitive, AFAIK, that did not wear crotch-covering clothing in some form. Yet that's how Burroughs wrote the story. (In comix and illustrations, however, Carter is always wearing some kinda pants and Dejah Thoris some kinda metallic bikini.)

[silenus]

Did Burroughs ever mention male Martian equipment? Kinda silly to have your junk dangling in the breeze when someone is swinging a sword at you. And aren't females on Mars ovipositors? That has to affect the design of the nether regions somehow.

[Evil Captor]

Nude? NUDE? We'll be damn lucky if the outfits are even SKIMPY!

[Triskadecamus]

Hey, no culture anywhere primitive or otherwise had chicks running around in chainmail bikinis either. So what?

Hollywood will strip Deja Thoris down to a hard R, and then edit it into market specific versions. The guys will wear pants. Long pants on the old farts, most likely.

And I for one am glad about it.

Tris

Tris

[alphaboi867]

Nor has there ever been a human culture, however primitive, AFAIK, that did not wear crotch-covering clothing in some form. Yet that's how Burroughs wrote the story. (In comix and illustrations, however, Carter is always wearing some kinda pants and Dejah Thoris some kinda metallic bikini.)
There are some tribes in South America and New Guinea that only wear a string belt. Also most Australian Aborignes went completely naked (except for a belt).

Honestly I wish they'd film the Martian nude, blur out the bits the MPAA objects too, and release an unrated DVD. Never gonna happen and it'd look totally bizarre on the big screen.

[chrisk]

I have to say, I've wondered the same thing about a screen adaptation that will never ever happen: Piers Anthony's "apprentica adept" books.

Frankly, I'm not sure in that case it it'd even be a good thing to be so faithful to the books. The author had a lot of worthwhile stuff he was trying to say, using nakedness as a metaphor and so on, but it's one thing to read about the characters being naked and another to see them - western society has plenty of hangups of its own about nudity that it'd be impossible to break them out of. Slap the proton serfs in some kind of futuristic, silvery-jumpsuit type uniforms and have done with the whole mess is my advice - and then start figuring out who you can cast as Sheen and how much money you can spend on the FX. :D Oh, and getting the script adaptation right too, of course, that's very important.


Not sure if any of the same stuff applies to 'princess of mars', but I felt like I had to share.

[LiveOnAPlane]

I'm reading Burroughs' Princess of Mars for the first time, and there's a striking detail: Neither the green Martians nor the red Martians, male nor female, ever wear clothing. Not even a loincloth or cache-sex. They wear metallic armbands and such, and when it gets cold they drape a fur or silk wrap over their shoulders. Otherwise, it's all bareass all the time. (Burroughs assumed Barsoom to have a climate similar to Earth's only milder, with no strong winds and never any rain. Whaddaya want, the guy never even visited Africa, let alone Mars.) A detail I've never seen faithfully rendered in comic-book adaptations. Assuming the movie ever gets made, will they have the guts to be authentic in that regard?
I hate prefacing a post with a lot of disclaimers, but I have to in this case.

Even though this was the very *first* real book I ever read, and even though I subsequently read every one of his Mars (Barsoom) books, I just not not remember how the Martians were exactly described. I think they could probably be portrayed without external genetalia, but I don't know/remember about how, or even if, the female breasts were described.

And, since I started this at about 7 years old, I certainly don't think I'd have been titillated enough by descriptions of female beasts to pick up on that if they were there.

Basic Answer: I dunno.
Secondary Answer: Look at the remake of War Of The Worlds with Tom Cruise. Once you get past the "Will they have the guts" to do this, I sadly think one is left with just "Is it even possible that Hollywood would even come close to the look and feel of the original...would they even come CLOSE?"

I just don't think so, though I would love to see a movie that faithfully brought this to the Silver Screen.

[Happy Clam]

I'm particuarly curious about this because it could serve as a test case for the long-rumoured film of Paradise Lost, the screenplay for which is being worked on by a trans-atlantic friend of mine. Essentially, Adam and Eve's nakedness is essential for the plot- but a substantial portion of the market share would be fundies, meaning that there's some...tensions there. Thoughts?

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

I hate prefacing a post with a lot of disclaimers, but I have to in this case.

Even though this was the very *first* real book I ever read, and even though I subsequently read every one of his Mars (Barsoom) books, I just not not remember how the Martians were exactly described. I think they could probably be portrayed without external genetalia, but I don't know/remember about how, or even if, the female breasts were described.

And, since I started this at about 7 years old, I certainly don't think I'd have been titillated enough by descriptions of female beasts to pick up on that if they were there.

Basic Answer: I dunno.
Secondary Answer: Look at the remake of War Of The Worlds with Tom Cruise. Once you get past the "Will they have the guts" to do this, I sadly think one is left with just "Is it even possible that Hollywood would even come close to the look and feel of the original...would they even come CLOSE?"

I just don't think so, though I would love to see a movie that faithfully brought this to the Silver Screen.


Try The Maltese Falcon. It's pretty good, as they basically just bought a copy of the book, & used a razor blade to cut & paste the script together.

Anyway, what wrong with metal bikinis?
Carrie Fisher wore one, & she taught a generation of Geeks to regularly change their bedsheets. :D

[ftg]

I just reread HGttG. At one point, 500 nude female parachutists appear thanks to the Improbability Drive.

That didn't appear in the movie.

Stuff happens, even less so in Hollywood.

[Otto]

I'm particuarly curious about this because it could serve as a test case for the long-rumoured film of Paradise Lost, the screenplay for which is being worked on by a trans-atlantic friend of mine. Essentially, Adam and Eve's nakedness is essential for the plot- but a substantial portion of the market share would be fundies, meaning that there's some...tensions there. Thoughts?
In John Huston's The Bible there's an extended nude scene of Adam and Eve, including per IMDB full frontal of each. This was in 1966 and apparently the Republic survived.

The real reason why it wouldn't be filmed with nude actors is that many/most name actors won't do nude scenes, and with what will undoubtedly be the expense of a film adaptation of a Barsoom novel the producers are going to want names in the lead roles to try to guarantee some box office.

[BrainGlutton]

Did Burroughs ever mention male Martian equipment? Kinda silly to have your junk dangling in the breeze when someone is swinging a sword at you. And aren't females on Mars ovipositors? That has to affect the design of the nether regions somehow.

Well, there's two intelligent species in PoM (I understand Burroughs introduces more in the sequels, which I haven't got to yet): Green Martians, who are 10-15 feet tall with four arms, tusks protructing from their mouths, and eyes set laterally on their heads like a chameleon's; and red Martians, who look exactly like Homo sapiens with red skin. The book (written in 1911) describes the genital equipment of neither. But Dejah Thoris is close enough to human that John Carter can not only fall in love with her but sire a child on her. (Actually, she lays an egg, which takes five years to hatch, which is the normal reproductive cycle for both races).

Understand, we're not talking hard SF here.

[BrainGlutton]

This site -- http://www.erbzine.com/mag13/1351.html -- includes galleries of various artists' conceptions of the Barsoomians.

[BrainGlutton]

Update: Apparently the working title for the film has been changed to John Carter of Mars. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Carter_of_Mars_%28film%29

[chrisk]

I just reread HGttG. At one point, 500 nude female parachutists appear thanks to the Improbability Drive.

That didn't appear in the movie.

Stuff happens, even less so in Hollywood.

To be fair, that was a very minor throwaway joke in the book, not even a plot point. So it's not a very fair comparison with what's being discussed in the rest of this thread.

Also... just what is that last line supposed to mean? It would seem that MORE stuff happens in hollywood than most places... not much of it good.
:D

[CapnPitt]

The real reason why it wouldn't be filmed with nude actors is that many/most name actors won't do nude scenes, and with what will undoubtedly be the expense of a film adaptation of a Barsoom novel the producers are going to want names in the lead roles to try to guarantee some box office.

Which leaves you with Harvey Keitel as Adam.

[Sattua]

Seems like they could put them in bodysuits and somehow erase the seams and cuffs, eh?

[Chronos]

Well, the books do say that men wear belts and harnesses on which to hang tools and weapons, and women wear various forms of ornamentation. It wouldn't be too much of a departure to add a loincloth or jock strap to a weapon belt, and I've seen many artist's conceptions of Barsoomian women that include some sort of filigreed wire jewelry over the breasts which just barely covers the nipples. If they go with something like that, I think it'd be tolerably acceptable to both the censors and the fans.

They could also go for the comedy staple of having the characters naked, but there's always something coincidental in the scene conveniently blocking the view of any naughty bits. But that'd be very hard to keep up for two hours, and would probably be a very bad idea.

LiveOnAPlane, I'm pretty sure that extensive mention is made of Deejah Thoris' perfect breasts, but that may just be my brain playing tricks on me and filling in details. And don't make too much of the fact that John Carter and Deejah Thoris are interfertile, since I'm pretty well convinced that Carter isn't human, either.

[alphaboi867]

Well, the books do say that men wear belts and harnesses on which to hang tools and weapons, and women wear various forms of ornamentation. It wouldn't be too much of a departure to add a loincloth or jock strap to a weapon belt, and I've seen many artist's conceptions of Barsoomian women that include some sort of filigreed wire jewelry over the breasts which just barely covers the nipples. If they go with something like that, I think it'd be tolerably acceptable to both the censors and the fans...

That seems likely. The Green Martians will be nude.

[BrainGlutton]

. . . and I've seen many artist's conceptions of Barsoomian women that include some sort of filigreed wire jewelry over the breasts which just barely covers the nipples.

That's another thing . . . John Carter says emphatically that there is only one "mammal" on Mars and it is very rare. IOW, the red Barsoomians are not mammals. Even after the egg hatches, the young, presumably, do not feed at the mother's breast. Yet red Martian women have breasts. At least, their absence is never mentioned.

[John Mace]

In "Quest for Fire", Rae Dawn Chong has a farily major part in which she plays a Cro Magnon woman who wears nothing more than some body paint. So, it's kinda been done before, but the filmaker was French (and we know all about them :) ).

[Chronos]

That seems likely. The Green Martians will be nude.Probably. They'll be CG anyway, so there'll be no difficulty in omitting visible genetalia, and they're un-human enough that the lack won't be jarring.

And I suspect that Martian females have breasts for the same reason that human females have breasts: Because they look nice. Most of that tissue is completely irrelevant for milk production. It is, of course, remarkable that Martians have exactly the same set of secondary sexual characteristics as humans, but that sort of comes with the territory.

[Otto]

That's another thing . . . John Carter says emphatically that there is only one "mammal" on Mars and it is very rare. IOW, the red Barsoomians are not mammals. Even after the egg hatches, the young, presumably, do not feed at the mother's breast. Yet red Martian women have breasts. At least, their absence is never mentioned.
Did people think of themselves as "mammals" at the time ERB was writing? I mean in general as opposed to the scientific community. And of course it's not like Barsoomian non-mammals can't nurse their young...

In "Quest for Fire", Rae Dawn Chong has a farily major part in which she plays a Cro Magnon woman who wears nothing more than some body paint.
Ah, Quest for Fire, the first movie that bored me so badly that I fell asleep in the theatre. A mark unmatched until Dracula: Dead and Loving It. RDC wasn't a known star when she made that movie and it's doubtful that she was being expected to carry it, the way, say, The Rock would if he were cast as John Carter.

[John Mace]

Ah, Quest for Fire, the first movie that bored me so badly that I fell asleep in the theatre. A mark unmatched until Dracula: Dead and Loving It. RDC wasn't a known star when she made that movie and it's doubtful that she was being expected to carry it, the way, say, The Rock would if he were cast as John Carter.
I actually like it, but then I'm a nerd about human evolution and will watch some pretty trashy stuff on that subject. But you're right about RDC-- she wasn't the star of this movie, or "a star" either, for that matter.

If The Rock gets cast as John Carter, there's going to be some not-so-polite whispering about what must've gone on in the Carter ancestral Virginian plantation... :D

[BrainGlutton]

If The Rock gets cast as John Carter, there's going to be some not-so-polite whispering about what must've gone on in the Carter ancestral Virginian plantation... :D

He certainly doesn't match Burroughs' description of Carter (gray eyes). OTOH, Carter's "ancestry" is mysterious. He seems to have lived for centuries without aging. He cannot remember ever having been a child. Yet he has people in Virginia he regards as "relatives." Perhaps that mystery is resolved in later Barsoom books.

[silenus]

Not as I recall. I've read them all, but it was years ago.

[saoirse]

That's another thing . . . John Carter says emphatically that there is only one "mammal" on Mars and it is very rare. IOW, the red Barsoomians are not mammals. Even after the egg hatches, the young, presumably, do not feed at the mother's breast. Yet red Martian women have breasts. At least, their absence is never mentioned.

Maybe they're marsupials?

[Chronos]

Perhaps that mystery is resolved in later Barsoom books.It's not. My personal hypothesis is that John Carter isn't of Mars, he is Mars. As in, the Greco-Roman deity. There's still the question of why he doesn't remember this, but it explains the lifespan, the incredible prowess with any form of combat, the telepathy, and the ability to cross interstellar space at will. Note that in a later book, another Earthman manages to cross over as well, after saying a silent prayer to the god Mars, but Carter does not invoke such a prayer.

The color of his eyes, though, is about the least significant of Carter's traits. I think that as long as he's a big, muscley hunk, details like his eyes are secondary.

[silenus]

Besides, if they want to be accurate, he'll wear contacts.

Forget Carter...who will play Deja Thoris?!?

[BrainGlutton]

Maybe they're marsupials?

Or monotremes?

Nah, monotreme mothers lay eggs, but they feed their young by oozing milk from their bellies . . .

[silenus]

Deja Thoris is not a platypus!! :mad:

[Larry Mudd]

Nude? NUDE? We'll be damn lucky if the outfits are even SKIMPY!Ah yes. Hollywood. Where this (http://www.moviebadgirls.com/capimage/Aeon_Flux_10.JPG) must necessarily be translated into this (http://ffmedia.ign.com/filmforce/image/article/655/655512/aeon-flux-20051003051146064.jpg).

What, no veil?

[blinkingblinking]

I do not know this story at all. Is it the nudity crucial for the story ?
In Heinlein's Puppet masters the protagonists have to walk around naked as it is the only way they can prove they are not controlled by alien slugs. In the movie they just took shirts off, and the women still wore bras. That was just one stupid thing about the movie version of the book.

[carnivorousplant]

the incredible prowess with any form of combat,

I always put that down to being an officer in the cavalry of the C.S.A.

:)

The travel to Mars I believe to be a literary device of some sort. The egg laying thing has already been mentioned. As someone previously posted, "we ain't talking hard core sci fi here."

[Evil Captor]

Ah yes. Hollywood. Where this (http://www.moviebadgirls.com/capimage/Aeon_Flux_10.JPG) must necessarily be translated into this (http://ffmedia.ign.com/filmforce/image/article/655/655512/aeon-flux-20051003051146064.jpg).

What, no veil?

Point well made. I've noticed lately that belly dancers in movies who used to wear a bikini with veils are now dressed in outfits that cover them from thoat to ankles. Things are getting kinda censorious nowadays.

[John Carter of Mars]

All will be revealed in due time.
JCoM

[Loopydude]

Ever seen Prospero's Books (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0102722/), which got an R rating? Whole lotta naked spirits running around in that one. I mean, almost everybody is butt naked, to the point you forget about it after fifteen minutes (instead you'll be struggling to figure out what the Hell is going on, even if you've read The Tempest many times).

Not likely, but it could happen if the nekkidness is tasteful, I suppose. Then agian, Shakespeare maybe got a ratings pass that Burroughs perhaps wouldn't.

[Voyager]

All will be revealed in due time.
JCoM
So, John, how's it hanging? :D

Burrough's heroes are not fond of clothes. Tarzan hated them. But I'm not too hopeful that they're going to be even remotely faithful. Burroughs was also not too fond of religion - bet you that point won't be in the movie.

[CalMeacham]

Of course they won't have anyone naked. How are they gonna sell a zillion little toys of the characters, not to mention all the MacDonald's/Bruger King giveaways if they're naked?

Especially considering that you can juast put them in skimpy clothes and have done with it. That's the way they've been done in the comics for ages. (Although there are a few internet artists that insist on drawing a nude Dejah Thoris.)

[BrainGlutton]

I do not know this story at all. Is it the nudity crucial for the story ?

Only to the atmosphere. Dejah Thoris explains to John Carter that the red Martians know all about Earth and its history the "unsightly coverings" its people wear -- they have devices that allow them to view other planets really close up. A warrior is described as "wearing the metal" of this or that chieftain or city -- armbands, bracelets, etc. Apparently nobody needs to wear shoes, the surface of Mars being almost entirely covered with spongy moss.

[Evil Captor]

Ever seen Prospero's Books (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0102722/), which got an R rating? Whole lotta naked spirits running around in that one. I mean, almost everybody is butt naked, to the point you forget about it after fifteen minutes (instead you'll be struggling to figure out what the Hell is going on, even if you've read The Tempest many times).

Not likely, but it could happen if the nekkidness is tasteful, I suppose. Then agian, Shakespeare maybe got a ratings pass that Burroughs perhaps wouldn't.

That was made, what, 15 years ago? Not the same times, any more than 1960 is like 1975. We're in the post 9/11 era of fear and repression, my friend.

[saoirse]

Of course they won't have anyone naked. How are they gonna sell a zillion little toys of the characters, not to mention all the MacDonald's/Bruger King giveaways if they're naked?

Especially considering that you can juast put them in skimpy clothes and have done with it. That's the way they've been done in the comics for ages. (Although there are a few internet artists that insist on drawing a nude Dejah Thoris.)

You think they lined up for Pocahontas...

[carnivorousplant]

Apparently nobody needs to wear shoes, the surface of Mars being almost entirely covered with spongy moss.
What tough guys. :)

[Elmo Lincoln]

A stage play of "A Princess of Mars" is currently running in Minneapolis. A lifelong Burroughs fan, I made the trip out from Chicago to see it. It was really well done. The actors weren't naked, though. The director told me that then it would just become a play about naked people. I suppose that would hold true for the movie, too, if it ever gets made. I didn't realize there were so many ERB fans on this board. I reviewed the play and included several sound clips on my podcast for Burroughs fans, Dateline Jasoom. It's the latest episode, number 8. My web site is www.panthanpress.com. I've also posted a short video clip from the play, which runs through June 4. I strongly urge Burroughs fans in the Minneapolis area to check it out. And drop me a line about the podcast, if you're a Burroughs fan. I always like to hear from other fans. (Especially creative types like Dopers who might want to contribute bits.)

[BrainGlutton]

This site -- http://www.erbzine.com/mag13/1351.html -- includes galleries of various artists' conceptions of the Barsoomians.

And on the same site, you can read most of the Barsoom novels for free!

[DrDeth]

I always considered the Red Martian Princess outfits to be much like the Princess Leia slavegirl outfit.

[ralph124c]

have the copyrights on burrough's martian novels expired? If so, Hollywood will hack them to death. i recall reading these novels years ago-and they are just so old fashioned-the descriptions of how the barsoomians view the earth (Cosoom)? is pretty stupid. Also, the mad brain transplant surgeon 9ras Thavas0 was a pretty interesting concept-though quite impossible.
In any event, yes, make those martain gals clothed as skimpily as possible!

[simster]

I'd prefer they make a faithful effort at John Norman's Gor Series.

Now, that would be cool.

[Antinor01]

I have to say, I've wondered the same thing about a screen adaptation that will never ever happen: Piers Anthony's "apprentica adept" books.

Frankly, I'm not sure in that case it it'd even be a good thing to be so faithful to the books. The author had a lot of worthwhile stuff he was trying to say, using nakedness as a metaphor and so on, but it's one thing to read about the characters being naked and another to see them - western society has plenty of hangups of its own about nudity that it'd be impossible to break them out of. Slap the proton serfs in some kind of futuristic, silvery-jumpsuit type uniforms and have done with the whole mess is my advice - and then start figuring out who you can cast as Sheen and how much money you can spend on the FX. :D Oh, and getting the script adaptation right too, of course, that's very important.


Not sure if any of the same stuff applies to 'princess of mars', but I felt like I had to share.

Piers always did have a fondness for nudity in his stories.

[Lemur866]

Rasoom -- Mercury
Cosoom -- Venus
Jasoom -- Earth
Barsoom - Mars
Sasoom -- Jupiter

[DocCathode]

Apparently nobody needs to wear shoes, the surface of Mars being almost entirely covered with spongy moss.

In, I think, Thuvia Maid Of Mars, a very crucial plot point depends on a male character wearing sandals.

Re The OP

I'd be fine with Princess Leai bikinis on the women. After all, even if they don't need to wear clothes ornamentation shows wealth and social status.

Put the men in loincloths, boots, bracers, and maybe the occasional cape.

Re Copyright

Last time I checked, they were expired. I have no idea if any of the terms or characters is still trademaked.

[vibrotronica]

I'd just like to say that I will have the guts to view the film in the nude, as Burroughs intended.

[Evil Captor]

I'd prefer they make a faithful effort at John Norman's Gor Series.

Now, that would be cool.

I concur.

[ralph124c]

What was the climate of mars?barsoom supposed to be like? I seem to recall that there were cold areas 9the poles). So were the canals semi-tropical waterways? in that case, the Pricess leia outfits should be appropriate.

[BrainGlutton]

What was the climate of mars?barsoom supposed to be like? I seem to recall that there were cold areas 9the poles). So were the canals semi-tropical waterways? in that case, the Pricess leia outfits should be appropriate.

Discounting the facts that Mars is significantly further away from the sun than Earth, and has less atmosphere to trap the heat, Burroughs assumed it is warm and mild everywhere but the poles. And there are no high winds.