Our Mail Carrier is Refusing to Deliver to Us

[Velma]

Here's our situation. We have a shepherd-collie mix dog, about 40 pounds, that barks when people come to the front door. This of course includes the mail carrier, since our mailbox is on the front of the house. I know she is not a dangerous dog, but I admit she can look intimidating when she puts her paws up on the door and barks. I don't blame people for being cautious, but I keep our dog under control.

Now that the weather is nice I like to have the main door open in front, it is the only way to get air in that part of the house as the other front windows don't open. We have a storm door that remains closed. Now when the mail carrier comes, the dog barks at her and puts her paws up on the storm door. I am sure it can be startling to have a dog barking at you when you come to the door, but the storm door has plexiglass on the bottom, and is a strong door and firmly in place. There is no way the dog can open or get through the door, the screen is on the top and she cannot reach up there so there is no possibility of breaking the screen. The door does not bend or strain the hinges or anything when she jumps up.

Friday we did not get any mail, and I thought that was odd. On Saturday my husband was outside when the mail carrier came, and she told my him that she did not deliver our mail on Friday "because the door was open." My husband asked "the screen door?"
"No, the main door" she said. She told him she would not deliver the mail because "she forgot her dog spray that day." When I looked at our mail on Saturday, she had written on one of the envelopes "Friday, did not deliver, door open!!" My husband explained to her that the dog was not dangerous and could not get through the door, but she says we need to keep the main door closed or restrain the dog.

Really? I know we need to keep the way to the mailbox clear and safe for her but seriously, the dog is in the house. I am wondering what you guys think. I almost put this in GQ since I wonder if she can really refuse to deliver our mail because our dog barks at her. I honestly understand that she has to be safe from dogs on her route and I would never let the dog be a danger. The dog is always in the house - she barks but cannot get outside. I don't know what to do - should I just keep the door shut all afternoon? (She delivers mail any time between 1-4 pm.) If most people think I should just keep the door shut I will do it, but I admit I am annoyed and a little perplexed that she could think the dog can open the door.

I feel for her if she is afraid of dogs and is a mail carrier, but is a barking dog in the house a real reason to refuse to deliver?

[Anaamika]

Lots of people say "But my dog isn't dangerous" right before the dog hauls off and chomps someone's foot off. I've stopped believing it when people say it because they never see that their babies are evil. I'm not saying your dog is at all, but I understand the mailcarrier's point of view.

And the dog can certainly go through a screen door if she wants to...I've seen really friendly dogs leap up and right through the screen part of the door. They mean no harm, they just want to come lick you, but that's pretty intimidating. A shephard-collie mix would have no problem with it.

Does all this mean your dog will? No. But again, I understand her. Can you work out something...if you know when she is going to come by, can you restrain the dog for just half an hour? Can you ask her to specify her delivery time? I know you think she is wrong for this, but put yourself in her position - she only has your word to go by that this large dog barking at her is in fact, friendly. Maybe invite her in to meet the dog?

[Kalhoun]

Well, the mail carrier is creating a false picture of the situation by saying the door is open. I understand her fears, but she's taking it a bit too far. that's like saying a meteor might hit Earth. The door is closed. She needs to get over it or get into another line of work. I'd call the post office and pitch a bitch. It's not YOUR fault she forgot her dog spray and it's not YOUR fault she has an overblown sense of fear about the door.

That said, maybe you can install a more substantial looking door or do something else to ensure the dog can't escape.

[Winston Smith]

<snip>...but is a barking dog in the house a real reason to refuse to deliver?

Yes, IMHO that is a valid reason to refuse delivery. In another life, I operated a small package delivery operation (I was an Owner Operator for RPS), and I had to contend with many many dogs. Believe me, your AmEx bill isn't worth even a nip on my ankle. I had neighbors years ago that owned a Rotty - a big friendly female with a bark that shook my windows. The regular letter carrier knew her and there was no trouble. He approaced, she barked, he delivered the mail a told her "Good girl" and he was on his way. Well, he took some time off, and the replacement carrier approached the house, the dog barked and frightened/startled him, and he sprayed her with Pepper Spray. She was never the same after that, and so began years of letter carrier hatred and distrust by a previously friendly dog. The bottom line is you can't reason with a dog, and those fine folks with the USPS are out there unarmed (as it were). I can understand your indignance, and I can sympathize - I've owned dogs, and it's annoying when people don't trust this animal that's a part of your family, but I come down firmly on the side of the USPS on this one. Sorry.

[Cheesesteak]

Sorry, I'm with the mail carrier. While you and your dog are most likely safe, the carrier does not know that. Storm doors also open outward, so a faulty latch (which the carrier won't know about) will let the dog come crashing out. Front doors open inward, so a dog cannot push it out when its closed.

You can't trust people you don't know, especially when you deliver to 1,000 of them a day. At some point, someone will let you down, then you get bitten. There's a limit to the risk you can allow yourself when you interact that often with people, I can easily see a barking dog restrained by a storm door being beyond that limit.

I think it's also a good idea to look into training your dog to be less aggressive with visitors. Putting paws up and barking is not an acceptable response to a person approaching your home.

[Ravenman]

My understanding is that a mail carrier can refuse to deliver to an address because of concerns for his safety.

I am a dog lover, but let's get real: how many dog owners believe their companion is a real threat to strangers? I think it is a very low percentage. From a mail carrier's perspective, I don't think that they should take anyone's assurances that their dog is just a big, friendly, barking bundle of fur with a golden heart who can't possibly get through a storm door. I see factoids that nearly 27,000 mail carriers get bitten each year, so I'm strongly inclined to err on the side of the mailman's legitimate fear that a dog -- any dog -- could ruin his day.

I just don't see that it is a very big deal to close your front door during normal delivery hours. I understand you want some air circulating in your house, but I don't think that that's a good reason why a mailman should have to put up with what sounds like an intimidating canine.

[Unregistered Bull]

I don't blame the mail carrier one little bit. It's a pretty easy problem to fix: shut your door between 1 and 4, get rid of the dog, put it in the backyard between 1 and 4, or get a post office box.

[Turek]

My sympathies are with the mail carrier, and your dog should be restrained better if you want your mail delivered.

I used to have a newspaper route. I'd ride my bike over 5 miles of suburban streets every day, and occasionally a neighborhood dog would be wandering outside it's yard and take an interest in me. It was never a problem. One morning, a big friendly dog saw me and was interested in me. No biggie... until he decided to reach over, chomp on my thigh, and then continue on his way.

I rushed home in a near panic with blood running down my leg and got a fun visit to the doctor worrying about rabies shots. We eventually found the dog and the owner confirmed he was a big friendly dog... except, well, yeah, he, uh, really didn't like paperboys because one had taunted him. Now I have scars on my leg and an aversion to stray dogs.

Lock up your dog if you want your mail.

[Poysyn]

Another thought is to put your mailbox on the other side of your fence - this only works if you have a fenced yard.

We used to have two mailboxes, one near the front door, one on the fence, if the dog was out when the mail came we needed to walk a little. No biggie.

[JustAnotherGeek]

I don't think you will get anywhere with a complaint. In the most likely scenario, I think that TPTB at the post office will back their employee. (The mailcarrier has done nothing wrong; there are rules about not delivering to a house where she feels endangered.) All the carrier has to say to her boss (after a putative complaint) is that she felt threatened. The complaint then gets either filed in the round file deposit, or you get a letter to formally restrain your dog.


You are in a fix; I don't envy you. However, you are not going to win this fight (if you make it one). Move the mailbox, lock the dog in another part of the house (or backyard), or, if you can talk to the carrier for a minute, ask her what would make her feel safe. Maybe you can work something out.


Good luck.

[Kalhoun]

My sympathies are with the mail carrier, and your dog should be restrained better if you want your mail delivered.

I used to have a newspaper route. I'd ride my bike over 5 miles of suburban streets every day, and occasionally a neighborhood dog would be wandering outside it's yard and take an interest in me. It was never a problem. One morning, a big friendly dog saw me and was interested in me. No biggie... until he decided to reach over, chomp on my thigh, and then continue on his way.

I rushed home in a near panic with blood running down my leg and got a fun visit to the doctor worrying about rabies shots. We eventually found the dog and the owner confirmed he was a big friendly dog... except, well, yeah, he, uh, really didn't like paperboys because one had taunted him. Now I have scars on my leg and an aversion to stray dogs.

Lock up your dog if you want your mail.
Her dog is restrained. It's in the house behind a closed door. You are talking about dogs that are wandering around outside, and that is not the case here.

I'm very leery of strange dogs and I will not tolerate a dog wandering around the neighborhood, but that simply isn't happening here. Her dog is in the house behind a closed door. She said the door is in good working order, and I assume she's double-checked that since the carrier stopped delivering mail.

[davenportavenger]

I see factoids that nearly 27,000 mail carriers get bitten each year, so I'm strongly inclined to err on the side of the mailman's legitimate fear that a dog -- any dog -- could ruin his day.Or his face.

An animal can open a screen door. If my 12-pound cat can hit the latch on a screen door and get out (something that almost happened the other day), then your larger dog certainly could. Even if it is locked, it can still trip the lock, or scratch its way out through the screen. You just don't know. And after seeing the horrific damage done to people by "friendly" dogs I don't blame someone for avoiding them. Sure, it might only be a 0.001% chance that a random dog will freak, break down the door, and rip up the mailman's face, but is that a chance you really want to take? It won't kill the dog to be shut up in another room for a few hours, or have the door closed for that period of time. Part of owning pets is protecting other people from them.

[Anaamika]

Her dog is restrained. It's in the house behind a closed door. You are talking about dogs that are wandering around outside, and that is not the case here.

I'm very leery of strange dogs and I will not tolerate a dog wandering around the neighborhood, but that simply isn't happening here. Her dog is in the house behind a closed door. She said the door is in good working order, and I assume she's double-checked that since the carrier stopped delivering mail.
As I said, I've seen dogs leap through the screen parts of screen doors when excited enough.

[Athena]

Oh come on. A storm door with plexiglass on the bottom and screen only on top, where the dog can't reach? How in the world can that NOT be "constraining the dog"? A storm door is not a fragile half-open screen door that can be ripped through at the drop of a hat.

I agree that dogs can pose a problem to mail carriers, but I've also experienced mail carriers who use the "danger" thing as an excuse to be lazy. Like my current carrier.

I have two pugs. Tiny little things, but they bark. When my mail carrier has a package for me, she drives up my driveway and sits in her car and honks the horn until me or Mr. Athena come out and get the package. She told us it's because of the dogs.

Yup, that's right. She's so scared of two pugs that she cannot get out of her car, walk up on the porch and leave the package there or ring our doorbell. Because, you know, an 18 pound dog can go right through a heavily insulated locked front door.

:rolleyes:

[Velma]

Ok, there seems to be a consensus. I do understand that she has no reason to believe us when we say the dog will not hurt her. I just think having her in the house is a reasonable precaution - there is no way she is getting through this door. The screen is on the top, there is metal and plexiglass on the bottom. Even when the dog jumps up she can't reach the screen, and she cannot take a running start at the door because there is furniture there. But oh well, I guess if she won't deliver my mail she's got us on this one. I do think that writing "Door Open" on our mail was giving a different impression of what really happened though. Like I said I was on the fence about this, I honestly do take responsibility for our dog and my feelings are not hurt if people think I should just keep the door closed.

Believe me I would love to train the dog to not bark, she is very well trained otherwise and we have taken her to obedience classes. (With a professional trainer, not just at PetSmart or something.) My toddler son is able to take toys and food out of her mouth. Even the trainer we work with admits that teaching a dog not to bark is one of the most difficult concepts to get across. She is very smart and trainable, but I am stumped on how to teach her this. She is not an excessively barky dog - when she is in the yard there are dogs in other yards on both sides of us that bark at her and she ignores them. She just barks when people come to the front door. Once you come in the door she does not bark at you, she runs in circles. If anyone has any ideas how to train a dog not to bark I would love to hear them.

Are we allowed to move our mailbox to the curb if she has a walking route? I wonder if that would solve everyone's problem. Our front yard is not fenced in, when we let the dog out she is in the back yard, but I don't want to leave her outside all afternoon either.

[ethelbert]

I have relatives who live in suburban Connecticut and the mail carriers all carry dog treats and know all the dogs on their route. I have even been out walking their dog (a huge lab) when a mail truck will stop and the guy gets out of the truck to give the dog a treat. He doesn't know me, mind you, but he knows the dog by name.

This probably would not work for everybody (or every dog), but it always struck me as a good way to deal with the problem.

[Anaamika]

I do think that writing "Door Open" on our mail was giving a different impression of what really happened though.



I agree with this, by the way. It's a bit more than a mis-characterization.

[Indygrrl]

I think it's hard to understand what we might perceive as an irrational fear.

It's something I really never thought about until one Saturday when the cable guy came to my house. When I opened the door he asked me if I had a dog in my apartment, I kind of laughed and said no, just a cat. Then we got to talking and he told me he's been bitten three times and is now afraid of most animals. It seemed a little silly to me, but I'm not the one who has been bitten. He also told me that all three dog owners had told him the dog was friendly before he got bitten.

Anecdotal, but I bet a lot of letter carriers have had the same experiences.

[Kalhoun]

As I said, I've seen dogs leap through the screen parts of screen doors when excited enough.
Dogs leap through glass windows, too. But that doesn't mean you have to lock your dog in a room all day waiting for the mailman to show up. It's irrational. She's done everything she needs to do under the present knowledge, circumstance, and best practices. No one is required to keep their big door shut all day, and we're talking pedestrians, bicyclists, delivery men, etc., that go down the street all day long. Including those who approach the door. Why should this person be treated differently from the rest of the population?

[Anaamika]

Dogs leap through glass windows, too. But that doesn't mean you have to lock your dog in a room all day waiting for the mailman to show up. It's irrational. She's done everything she needs to do under the present knowledge, circumstance, and best practices. No one is required to keep their big door shut all day, and we're talking pedestrians, bicyclists, delivery men, etc., that go down the street all day long. Including those who approach the door. Why should this person be treated differently from the rest of the population?
Who's saying she has to lock her dog in a room all day? The dog reacts when it sees the postal worker. OP didn't say she reacts to anyone else. All we're saying is logically, if she wants her mail it would behoove her to restrain the dog or move her elsewhere from 1 to 4 pm. It's 3 hours, and if she's home, what's the big deal?

[Kalhoun]

Who's saying she has to lock her dog in a room all day? The dog reacts when it sees the postal worker. OP didn't say she reacts to anyone else. All we're saying is logically, if she wants her mail it would behoove her to restrain the dog or move her elsewhere from 1 to 4 pm. It's 3 hours, and if she's home, what's the big deal?
It's overkill. That's all I'm saying. If the mail carrier is so afraid of dogs, she needs to get another job. The dog isn't a threat to anyone else and the OP has taken reasonable steps to restrain her dog. I'd be interested in hearing what the Post Office says if she decides to take them to task on this. Saying something is a threat doesn't make it a threat.

[Anaamika]

It's overkill. That's all I'm saying. If the mail carrier is so afraid of dogs, she needs to get another job. The dog isn't a threat to anyone else and the OP has taken reasonable steps to restrain her dog. I'd be interested in hearing what the Post Office says if she decides to take them to task on this. Saying something is a threat doesn't make it a threat.
But I could turn that right around! Saying something is not a threat doesn't mean it's not a threat. Like I said, lots and lots of people claim up and down that their dog is the safe one. I don't blame the mail carrier for not believing it. Still, I think the mail carrier should have told the truth and also should be willing to show some flexibility.

[BlueKangaroo]

Velma, do you yell at your dog when she barks?

I ask because my family has spent 10 years with a barker, and my parents recently had some success with the techniques one of their trainers told them about.

Basically, if you yell at the dog from behind it, the dog doesn't really process the words, just to vocal tone. In effect, they think you are backing them up, so are encouraged to bark more. If you come around to the front of the dog, and look them in the face and then correct them, they get that you're correcting them, and not the person/thing they're trying to correct.

This hasn't fixed most of the dog's barking quirks, he's fairly neurotic and has a lot of history, but my mother says it's the most successful thing they've done in the past decade with him. I'd hope that a dog who is as trainable as you say, without the past history of abuse that our boy had, would be more receptive.

Granted, you may not be able to get the carrier to deliver your mail even if the dog is merely standing in front of the storm door, but reducing the barking of any dog really reduces the appearance of threat.

[carnivorousplant]

I'd close the door at mail time. Leave the windows open.

[Velma]

I really don't want to get in a fight with the mail carrier on this, as I think she has the upper hand here. She can refuse to deliver and say we have a hostile dog. The most I could accomplish is to force her to deliver with the main door open, and I really don't like the idea of her hating us or even genuinely feeling afraid. Think of the junk mail lists she could put us on :). Or oops, I accidentally lost that check kind of thing. I am just irked at the situation and I do feel like she is being a little unreasonable, but I don't like the idea of going to her supervisor and trying to force the issue, like I said I don't think it will end up in our favor.

All I can find when I google search on this issue is that dogs must be restrained and I guess she is saying our dog isn't. I would argue she is, but I am thinking I have no real power here. Putting her in another room is possible, but she is a people dog and she cries if she knows we are around and she can't be with us. I can kennel her and she is quiet in her kennel, but I would rather just close the door than make her be in her kennel all afternoon.

So it seems like all I can do is close the door. I just wanted other opinions on whether they thought this request was a little extreme. I am sure there are dogs that can open doors but does that mean it should be assumed that all dogs might.

[Velma]

Velma, do you yell at your dog when she barks?

I ask because my family has spent 10 years with a barker, and my parents recently had some success with the techniques one of their trainers told them about.

Basically, if you yell at the dog from behind it, the dog doesn't really process the words, just to vocal tone. In effect, they think you are backing them up, so are encouraged to bark more. If you come around to the front of the dog, and look them in the face and then correct them, they get that you're correcting them, and not the person/thing they're trying to correct.

This hasn't fixed most of the dog's barking quirks, he's fairly neurotic and has a lot of history, but my mother says it's the most successful thing they've done in the past decade with him. I'd hope that a dog who is as trainable as you say, without the past history of abuse that our boy had, would be more receptive.

Granted, you may not be able to get the carrier to deliver your mail even if the dog is merely standing in front of the storm door, but reducing the barking of any dog really reduces the appearance of threat.
Sorry, I missed this on preview.

I have tried getting in front of her and she will quiet down (although she is all aquiver in excitement) but that does not stop her from barking again next time. So I can quiet her if I go over to her, but the cycle begins again when someone comes to the door. I need to find a way to keep her from barking to begin with (although it is handy for solicitors :) )

[BlueKangaroo]

Well, if you do find that magic "no bark" pill/cream/training, please post it! I'll tell my mother about it and be heralded as the Best Daughter Ever!!! I might even get a tiara.

[A.R. Cane]

Posted by Velma: " I am sure there are dogs that can open doors but does that mean it should
be assumed that all dogs might."

YES!

[Magiver]

Lots of people say "But my dog isn't dangerous" right before the dog hauls off and chomps someone's foot off. I've stopped believing it when people say it because they never see that their babies are evil. I'm not saying your dog is at all, but I understand the mailcarrier's point of view.

And the dog can certainly go through a screen door if she wants to...I've seen really friendly dogs leap up and right through the screen part of the door. They mean no harm, they just want to come lick you, but that's pretty intimidating. A shephard-collie mix would have no problem with it.

Does all this mean your dog will? No. But again, I understand her. Can you work out something...if you know when she is going to come by, can you restrain the dog for just half an hour? Can you ask her to specify her delivery time? I know you think she is wrong for this, but put yourself in her position - she only has your word to go by that this large dog barking at her is in fact, friendly. Maybe invite her in to meet the dog?I agree. Telling the carrier that your barking 40 lb shepherd mix isn't dangerous is not a useful endorsement.

Your opinion of your dog’s behavior is in conflict with the dog’s actual behavior. It is barking in an attempt to warn off intruders, which in this case is the mail carrier. Every day the dog barks at the intruder and every day the intruder backs away in response. It's a self-fulfilling response so you've unwittingly allowed your dog to train itself. This person has no way of knowing the level of danger in this situation. What's going to happen when you forget to latch the door and your 40 lb shepherd mix hits it on the run? Who's going to be more surprised, the dog or the carrier?

You have no case unless you can prove:
- The screen is rated to stop a charging 40 lb dog
- The door has a visual marker that shows it locked (like a porta-john)
- The door cannot be opened by a scratching paw

[Tamryne]

Just wanted to mention, dogs can get through plexiglass. With a hard enough leap and after enough abuse, the stuff will crack/break. My little fat miniature daschound used to be taunted by the neighbor's cat, until he became angry enough and broke through the lower plexiglass sheet in our door. Scared the bejeezus out of us, let alone the dog and the annoying cat.

[Velma]

Posted by Velma: " I am sure there are dogs that can open doors but does that mean it should
be assumed that all dogs might."

YES!
Ok, there are trained helper dogs that can unlock and open all kinds of doors. They can answer the phone too. Does that mean I have to assume my dog can do it?

I agree that I have no real way of convincing the mail carrier not to be afraid. She is coming from her perceptions and I don't fault her for that. I am going to keep the door closed from now on, for reasons I have stated. I just think it's an overreaction. Our door is stable and our dog is limited in her abilities and I feel that by looking at the door and the dog the carrier should be able to tell that the dog can't get her. We have had 2 carriers before this one and no one else had a problem. Neither do the paper carriers, the UPS / FedEx people, the solicitors who leave fliers, etc.

[ratatoskK]

Here are the official mailbox regulations. (http://pe.usps.gov/text/dmm300/508.htm#wp1051804) I would imagine a curbside box would be fine, but you should check with your postmaster.

[carnivorousplant]

Ok, there are trained helper dogs that can unlock and open all kinds of doors. They can answer the phone too. Does that mean I have to assume my dog can do it?

If it's my ass that's going to be chewed off, yes.

I was a paper carrier long ago.

[Voyager]

I think it's hard to understand what we might perceive as an irrational fear.

It's something I really never thought about until one Saturday when the cable guy came to my house. When I opened the door he asked me if I had a dog in my apartment, I kind of laughed and said no, just a cat. Then we got to talking and he told me he's been bitten three times and is now afraid of most animals. It seemed a little silly to me, but I'm not the one who has been bitten. He also told me that all three dog owners had told him the dog was friendly before he got bitten.

Anecdotal, but I bet a lot of letter carriers have had the same experiences.
Raises hand.

Not bitten, but almost. I delivered mail one summer when I was in college. There was a dog sitting on the lawn of the house, which looked at me and seemed friendly, and never budged when I went to the door. I went around the corner, and saw what looked like the same dog - who immediately attacked. He just missed my leg as I sprayed him. The owner then came running up, and told me the dog was friendly right after he almost bit me. :wally Dogs are territorial, and carriers invade their territories all the time. A guy in my office was badly bitten that summer. The carrier in the OP might have been bitten before, or almost been bitten, and might not want to take any chances.

A good solution is to move the mailbox. Ours is a slot in the garage. Having a box on the street might or might not be allowed in your area. It seems a lot simpler than remembering to move the dog.

[carnivorousplant]

A good solution is to move the mailbox. .
A compromise worthy of Solomon! :)

[Telemark]

Ok, there are trained helper dogs that can unlock and open all kinds of doors. They can answer the phone too. Does that mean I have to assume my dog can do it?
The dog we owned when I was growing up could easily open the front screen door just by jumping up and hitting the handle with her paw. She discovered this by accident but learned quickly.

And, yes, the letter carrier should assume that the dog can open the door because if it happens they could be in a world of hurt.

[Velma]

If it's my ass that's going to be chewed off, yes.

I was a paper carrier long ago.

So was I.

Look, I understand that some people are afraid of dogs. I understand that sometimes people are attacked by dogs that the owners say are nice. I am just saying there should be a reasonable amount of compromise here. I feel that having the dog inside is reasonable, she obviously disagrees. Since she is the one with the power, I am deferring. The Post Office rules say that if something "impedes" the carrier they can refuse to deliver. I guess she is arguing that her fear is impeding her?

I am thinking more about moving the mailbox, but I am afraid that if her issue is really that she thinks the dog is going to get out the door, then her being anywhere near the house is going to have the same problem. Our front lawn is not that big.

[Unregistered Bull]

I am just saying there should be a reasonable amount of compromise here.

There is. Shut your main door during mail delivery times.

[picunurse]

My best friend's dog was a shepard mix that she called her "Cowardly Lion." He'd bark at the door (or storm door) when anyone approached, then run off and hide, if they came in.
I had been in the house many times, and had interacted with the dog a few of those times.
But, I'm afraid of dogs, especially dogs that bark. I would react every time the dog barked at the door. Then one summer day, the main door was open when I approached.
My friend had, what seemed to be, a sturdy storm door. The handle was a knob, so it couldn't be opened by an accidental paw. As I got to the bottom of the porch stairs, the dog started barking, I startled, and the dog backed up, then leaped four feet in the air, through the screen at me. Luckily, I didn't freeze up I turned and ran back to my car.
My friend got control of the dog before it got to the gate, but, I couldn't get out of my car.
Dogs react differently to people who are afraid of them, even nice dogs.
Is it really so hard to close the inside door for a half hour a day when the letter carrier is due?

[Kalhoun]

Is there some way you can reinforce your door so you can leave it open for the cross-breeze? Maybe there's a metal grate you can install on the inside. I'd give it some thought.

[carnivorousplant]

So was I.

Look, I understand that some people are afraid of dogs.
And I'm not, despite having a chunk of canvas and newsprint torn off when a doberman was aiming for my ass.
Like an idiot I got within three feet of the cold wet old dog that was lost and sheltering the storm in my driveway. I gingerly extended a hand and said, "Hey little guy, are you ok?" And she bit the snot out of me with all four remaining teeth. :) You never know.

[Velma]

Dogs react differently to people who are afraid of them, even nice dogs.
Is it really so hard to close the inside door for a half hour a day when the letter carrier is due?

As I pointed out, the carrier comes at any time between 1-4pm. That's pretty much all afternoon that I can't open the door. I think she does the route in different orders.

No, it is not hard to close the door. I would love it if I knew what time she was coming, but I don't. It is an inconvenience because as I said, it is the only way I can get air in that portion of the house, as the rest of the front side windows don't open. Yes, I am going to do it anyway and I am sure life will go on.

For a dog to go through a solid door, they generally have to get some momentum going first. This is not possible with our house, when you come in you have a small landing the width of the door and then there is a built-in cabinet so you have to make a 90 degree turn to walk in the house. The dog has enough room to stand up against the door but not to make a running start .

Anyway, I am not about to argue semantics or theoretical ways my dog can or cannot possibly get out the door with the mail carrier. The bottom line I guess is she won't deliver the mail unless the door is closed and I am not about make a postal worker go, um...postal.

[Sunspace]

Am I evil because, when I saw the title of Velma's thread, the first thing I thought was, "I wonder whether there is a a (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=322105) cooler (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=177712) on her verandah?" :D

[Velma]

Well you know, it is the same dog who drank from it, so maybe the mail carrier just has a sixth sense. If that's true, I totally see where she's coming from.

[kanicbird]

Why would you want a mail'person' want to take a risk. Don't think of it from your side and your cute fluffy animal comapnion, but from the lettercarrior's perspective.

Screen/storm doors are not security doors, they are easially defeated, I have personally seen dogs break through them - not the screen mind you, but the door itself was bent by fluffy. I think letter carriors may have at least heard about this if not personally experenced this in the past.

Many owners claim their fluffy is safe, many people are bitten by said dog afterwards, what assumption shoudl a letter carrior make.

Your income is based on you being able to work, why would you put that at risk.

I'm not buying for one second that is lazyness. It is a disruption of the flow of work for the letter carroir to writhe the reson for non-delivery on the envelope. Then the next day he/she has to resort the mail to include the former day's mail. I see that it can actually take more time and sort of annoying work.

[Omniscient]

Aww, my poor widdle dawgie would never hurt a fly!!!

Gimme a fucking break.

[Velma]

Aww, my poor widdle dawgie would never hurt a fly!!!

Gimme a fucking break.
Thank you for your charming and insightful input. I will indeed ponder your words for many an hour.

[carnivorousplant]

Gimme a fucking break.

Omniscient is from Chicago.


From another viewpoint, I have no idea what Mrs. Plant's superbly trained dogs would do if someone came onto the porch when we weren't in the room and there was only a screen between them. They might want to play ball and they might eat the guy.

[Stainz]

Velma , why not ASK the mail carrier if you moved your mailbox, if she would feel safe delivering to it?

Mind you, I don't know when your dog starts barking - does she see the mail-lady on the sidewalk or the driveway, or is it just when she gets to the door?

[A.R. Cane]

Well you know, it is the same dog who drank from it, so maybe the mail carrier just has a sixth sense. If that's true, I totally see where she's coming from.

Having read the first page of the "Cooler" thread, I now understand the problem. If you're incapable of properly training a husband, how can you possibly be expected to train a dog. Since your mail carrier is a woman she will likely understand your dilemma. ;-)

[jimmmy]

So was I.

. Since she is the one with the power, I am deferring. The Post Office rules say that if something "impedes" the carrier they can refuse to deliver. I guess she is arguing that her fear is impeding her?



From here (http://www.usps.com/cpim/ftp/bulletin/2006/html/pb22179/pb6ktxt.html) she can refuse is the letter carrier is "threatened"

Our letter carriers are vigilant and dedicated, but we may be forced to stop mail delivery at an address if a letter carrier is threatened by a vicious dog. In some instances, Postal ServiceTM employees have sued and collected damages for dog bite injuries. We can't control people's dogs; only dog owners can do that.

The USPS takes this issueseriously (http://www.usps.com/communications/news/stamps/2006/sr06_027.htm)

[Acsenray]

Just to highlight, from jimmmy second link:

Many letter carriers attacked by dogs last year were victimized by pets which broke loose of their owners grip to jump through screen or glass doors. As part of its messaging to kickoff National Dog Bite Prevention Week, May 21-27, the Postal Service is asking customers to place their pets in a separate room and close the door before accepting mail at their front door.

"Dogs are protective in nature and may perceive a letter carrier handing mail to its owner as a threat," explained USPS Vice President and Consumer Advocate Delores Killette. "For the same reason, we also ask parents to instruct their children to refrain from collecting mail from our carriers in the presence of their pet."

...

"Safety always comes first," Killette continued. "If a letter carrier perceives an unrestrained pet as a threat, we may curtail delivery and ask the customer to pick up their mail at the Post Office. If a pet roams a wide area, this may also result in the neighbors' mail being curtailed. In these cases, we won't resume delivery until the situation is safe."

I don't think the letter carrier is being unreasonable. She doesn't know your dog. She can't know every dog she might encounter.

[Frank]

Aww, my poor widdle dawgie would never hurt a fly!!!

Gimme a fucking break.
'Tis not the Pit, Omniscient. Chill, please.

[Ensign Edison]

I think it's ridiculous to suggest that the mail carrier is even slightly, remotely in any kind of danger from this set-up. If anyone can explain where the danger is in a rational manner, without resorting to the assumption that Velma is lying, I'd appreciate that.

[carnivorousplant]

I have no idea what Mrs. Plant's superbly trained dogs would do if someone came onto the porch
Upon consulting with Mrs. Plant I have learned that upon once seeing her Associate who sometimes cares for them, come into the yard without escort they did indeed try to come through the window screen. These are qualified therapy dogs who can go into a hospital full of demented, screaming people and be petted and messed with. Someone coming onto their territory is another matter and results in different behavior.
Now I'll get off the soapbox. :)

[glee]

I think it's ridiculous to suggest that the mail carrier is even slightly, remotely in any kind of danger from this set-up. If anyone can explain where the danger is in a rational manner, without resorting to the assumption that Velma is lying, I'd appreciate that.

You're only looking at it from Velma's point of view.
The mail carrier knows every time they approach the house that a dog barks.
As these posters already said:

You can't trust people you don't know, especially when you deliver to 1,000 of them a day. At some point, someone will let you down, then you get bitten.


QUOTE=ravenman] I see factoids that nearly 27,000 mail carriers get bitten each year, so I'm strongly inclined to err on the side of the mailman's legitimate fear that a dog -- any dog -- could ruin his day
[/quote]

[Czarcasm]

Aww, my poor widdle dawgie would never hurt a fly!!!

Gimme a fucking break.
[Official Moderator Warning]Not quite living up to your name, are you? This isn't The BBQ Pit, so clean up your act.[/Official Moderator Warning]

[SnakesCatLady]

I think it's ridiculous to suggest that the mail carrier is even slightly, remotely in any kind of danger from this set-up. If anyone can explain where the danger is in a rational manner, without resorting to the assumption that Velma is lying, I'd appreciate that.

I'm not about to suggest that Velma is lying. I am sure she knows what she is talking about and that her screen door latch is secure.

However, how can the letter carrier know that? Dogs have been known to go through plate glass windows when sufficently enraged. I have seen dogs that knew how to open doors. The letter carrier only knows that there is an aggressive-acting dog (I am not saying the dog is aggressive. I'm saying it may appear that way to strangers.) at the door.

If I owned a dog, I would want one that barked when someone approached my door. I would also understand if people hesitated to approach the door if there was a possibility of the dog getting to them.

[iamthewalrus(:3=]

I agree with the others who have said that the mailcarrier's apprehension is reasonable. She doesn't know how strong that door is, and a big dog can be dangerous.

One way to alleviate the problem would be by replacing the door. My mother has a "security" screen door on her front and back doors. You can open the main door to let the breeze in, but the house is still secure. The door's got some serious steel running across it, and the screen is thick and strong. It has a deadbolt. If I ran at it in a dead sprint, I'd probably just knock myself out. But it doesn't look unsightly, either.

[Cowgirl Jules]

I was busy googling while Walrus was busy typing. If you can't move the mailbox, why not look into a security door? I have one - I don't think it cost much more than a storm door (although I've never actually seen a storm door in person.) It's a metal grate rather than screen, and there are steel bars too. It's not as ugly as it sounds, and you can see out just fine. The deadbolt's nice too; in the summer, I leave the main door open and lock that one.

Engineering solutions are easier than retraining the dog OR the maillady.

[clairobscur]

I agree that I have no real way of convincing the mail carrier not to be afraid. She is coming from her perceptions and I don't fault her for that. I am going to keep the door closed from now on, for reasons I have stated. I just think it's an overreaction. .


And i don't think it is. The mail carrier has no way to know about the safety of your dog, your dog, or even yourself as a dog owner. And no reaon to trust your statements. As mentionned previously, it's a rare dog owner who stated that his dog was dangerous before it actually bite someone. Also, do not forget you're probably not the only barking dog owner on her route, and that she multiplies her risk of having something bad or even very bad happening to her with each of them she trusts.

Anyway, even if the mail carrier is unreasonnably fearful, it's still up to you to provide a seemingly safe environment. You chose to own a dog, and as a result you have to bear the resulting inconvenience. Not her.

She's perfectly right to put her safey well above the comfort of every dog and dog owner who happens to be on her route.



By the way, a dog able to open a latch is very common in my experience. I judged my parent's last dog (or more exactly the last of my brothers' dogs who ended up living at my parent's place) as not very bright because it never figured out how to do that.

[clairobscur]

And i don't think it is. The mail carrier has no way to know about the safety of your dog, your dog, or even yourself


I meant of your dog, your door or even yourself....

[Shirley Ujest]

We can hear our mail lady coming by her squeaky brakes. Even in the winter.


Velma, maybe your mail carrier could honk his/her horn as they neared your house and you could close the front door.

[Velma]

Just to highlight, from jimmmy second link:



I don't think the letter carrier is being unreasonable. She doesn't know your dog. She can't know every dog she might encounter.
That's the same site I read. I took "accepting mail at the front door" to mean opening the door in the presence of the mail carrier, like to sign for a package or collect the mail while she is still there. That idea I perfectly understand, that opening the door to the dog is not ok. But I could be wrong and maybe it does mean the dog has to be out of the room all the time.

Stainz, the dog only barks when she is actually at the door, usually when she hears the mailbox squeak open. If I get a chance I will talk to her again about moving the mailbox.

Shirley Ujest, the way she delivers is she parks down the street and then walks up and down the street. I don't know if I would notice her honking from the end of the road, especially if I am downstairs or something. Why can't mail trucks play music like the ice cream man? They could play "Wait a Minute Mr. Postman". That would be good.

I'll have to look into the security doors - the ones I have seen seem pretty ugly but maybe we can find something. Maybe I should just put a big net over the door, so when the dog jumps on it she would go sproinging back.

Thanks for the suggestions guys.

[doreen]

Ok, there are trained helper dogs that can unlock and open all kinds of doors. They can answer the phone too. Does that mean I have to assume my dog can do it?

Dogs are kind of like kids. You won't find out that they can open the screen door or or the backyard fence or the microwave ( my dog's working on that one now- he's got the storm door down pat, and we had to put a lock on the fence to keep him from being able to open it ) until you find out they've done it. Which might be too late for the mail carrier, so she has to assume it's a possibility

[BoBettie]

Ok, there are trained helper dogs that can unlock and open all kinds of doors. They can answer the phone too. Does that mean I have to assume my dog can do it?


I would recommend that you do. I have the stupidest dog on the face of the earth, a Shar-pei named Yoda. Yoda is so damned dumb that he really didn't associate his name with his self for about 9 years of his life. He is no trained helper dog and seriously is probably about the equivilant of a human IQ of maybe 50.

We moved into a new house a few months ago and I shut a door behind him to keep him in the room. He jumped up onto the door and turned the handle in the process and busted right on out. I'd never seen him that that EVER in the 10 years he's been with me. It's not that he was so smart that he figured out how to open the door, it was just a happy accident. I'm willing to bet that the carrier in the OP has seen the exact same thing happen with big, strong storm doors. They have latches that can probably be pushed with paws and opened right up, especially by a barking agitated dog.

[SusanStoHelit]

Well, if you do find that magic "no bark" pill/cream/training, please post it! I'll tell my mother about it and be heralded as the Best Daughter Ever!!! I might even get a tiara.

Try this (http://www.petsmart.com/global/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524441781357&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302033763&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=2534374302023689&bmUID=1150171885881&itemNo=8&In=Dog&N=2033763&Ne=2) by your front door.

We got one for our collie/aussie mix, and it worked great... for about 2 weeks. Now when she hears someone at the door she barks from another room but stops by the time she gets to the front of the house. It's kinda weird, but it means that our visitors aren't confronted by an aggressive-seeming dog.

[BlueKangaroo]

Thanks, SusanStoHelit. I'll point it out to my parents, and see if they'd be interested in it. The dog's a miniture poodle, though, so it really is more about stopping the barking than making him seem less agressive.

For us, the big dogs tend not to be the barkers or agressive seeming. Just that little (adorable) brat of a poodle. I like to claim it's because he's my sister's dog. ;)

[Voyager]

Stainz, the dog only barks when she is actually at the door, usually when she hears the mailbox squeak open. If I get a chance I will talk to her again about moving the mailbox.

As a datapoint, my dog is getting crotchety in his old age, and barking when people are at the door. (Their only danger would be him pawing them to death looking for petting.) He never barks at the carrier when he deposits our mail in the garage. I'd bet that this would work.