I sentence you to insanity!

[Ludovic]

For several years I have avoided this subject in the interests of respecting privacy, but I can't pass this up (http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/06/21/smart.case.ap/index.html).

Some may say insanity is a fate worse than death. So be it. Don't give her (or him, if it should come up,) any mind-affecting medication. Our tax dollars are not worth helping those who decided to live outside society.

I revel in the thought that both perpetrators might spend decades chased by unshakable pain, unable to form coherent thoughts and bearing an almost unbearable burden of demons from within. Even if they don't reflect on what they did they won't be safe.

I'm sick.

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

I'm sick.

You should be medicated, then....

[Fear Itself]

Our tax dollars are not worth helping those who decided to live outside society.Even if that would expose prison guards to unnecessary danger from psychotic inmates? Some sense of righteous retribution you have there.

[Ludovic]

Even if that would expose prison guards to unnecessary danger from psychotic inmates? Some sense of righteous retribution you have there.On the contrary, guard don't have to be exposed at all.

[Fear Itself]

On the contrary, guard don't have to be exposed at all.Elucidate.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

Elucidate.
Yes, please do. :dubious:

[WhyNot]

Even if that would expose prison guards to unnecessary danger from psychotic inmates? Some sense of righteous retribution you have there.
There's nothing in the article to indicate that the patient is dangerous to guards or to herself. "Psychotic" doesn't always mean dangerous. She could be catatonic, for all I know.

I'd separate the issue into two categories: aggressive towards others and not. The first, I'd support forced medication (or alternatively, solitary confinment with no medical care, though that's a bit harsh even for a person with no grasp of reality). The second - let them stay unmedicated if they wish.

[Earthworm Jim]

I'm not certain I understand...Isn't it more important that the defendant was mentally competent at the time the crime was committed, rather than during the trial? I have to assume this enforced medication doesn't preclude an "insanity" plea.

[Skald the Rhymer]

I'm not certain I understand...Isn't it more important that the defendant was mentally competent at the time the crime was committed, rather than during the trial? I have to assume this enforced medication doesn't preclude an "insanity" plea.

It's important that the defendant be competent during the trial so that she may participate in her defense. If the defendant's hallucinating, hearing voices, so paranoid that she thinks her own defense lawyers are out to get her, and so forth, she cannot assist in her defense and is deprived of a fair trial. In America we consider that a bad thing.

[Excalibre]

I'm not certain I understand...Isn't it more important that the defendant was mentally competent at the time the crime was committed, rather than during the trial? I have to assume this enforced medication doesn't preclude an "insanity" plea.
No, but if you're sufficiently crazy at the time of trial, it makes you unable to assist in your own defense, which - at least according to the l33t criminal law education I've gotten from Law & Order - is sufficient to avoid a trial. I mean, if the person is nutso enough that they can't even communicate with their lawyer, then there's no way to give them a real trial.

[Ike Witt]

Of course, there is also the issue of a state (I think it is Texas -sigh) who wants to medicate a man so he is competent enough to be executed.

How close are we to the point of being able to change a persons brain chemistry to achieve whatever goal we desire?

[Kalhoun]

I'm torn on this subject. I don't believe in forced medication but I also think that a fair trial is impossible without it. It won't change the state of mind she was in when she committed the crime, and I'm confident the medication would have a positive effect on the quality of her defense. But forcing medication? Hmmm...that really doesn't sit right with me.

[Ludovic]

Yes, please do. :dubious:Isolation, producing the nice side effect of not helping the psychiatric condition of the patient either.

[Fear Itself]

Isolation, producing the nice side effect of not helping the psychiatric condition of the patient either.So all inmates with treatable mental illnesses should be put in solitary confinement? Jeez, you must like raising taxes more than I do.

[Kalhoun]

Isolation, producing the nice side effect of not helping the psychiatric condition of the patient either.
Feel the love...

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

Isolation, producing the nice side effect of not helping the psychiatric condition of the patient either.
Guards, nurses, and doctors will still have to interact with them periodically. And people are sent to prisons as a punishment, not to be punished.

Would you like to have a career where the expectation is that you torment people? Or even one where you must witness their continual torment? Even if society decides that such torment is justified, such a job will take a terrible, terrible toll on the person doing it.

[Lord Ashtar]

No, but if you're sufficiently crazy at the time of trial, it makes you unable to assist in your own defense, which - at least according to the l33t criminal law education I've gotten from Law & Order - is sufficient to avoid a trial. I mean, if the person is nutso enough that they can't even communicate with their lawyer, then there's no way to give them a real trial.
Speaking of L&O, I think I just saw a rerun the other day that used this. A crazy guy raped and killed his girlfriend, and when he was about to go on trial he stopped taking his meds and went catatonic. The judge ruled that he could be forcibly medicated so that he could participate in his own defense.

I wonder if there will be a disclaimer at the start of this trial that says, "The events of this trial were based on a Law & Order script."

[Ludovic]

Would you like to have a career where the expectation is that you torment people?Naw, it's more of an avocation. If you look at my previous posting history I am normally the first person to advocate for humane conditions and against punishments including the death penalty, but that it only because some of those affected aren't guilty. While I acknowledge the intellectual possibility in this case I just can't be objective about it, which is another reason I have avoided this topic.

To answer your question, yes, I would sacrifice some of the mental health and safety of prison workers in order to inflict punishment on the guilty. Only problem is, how can you be %100 sure?

[Fear Itself]

To answer your question, yes, I would sacrifice some of the mental health and safety of prison workers in order to inflict punishment on the guilty. Say Ludovic, what's it like to live in the 17th century?

[Kalhoun]

Naw, it's more of an avocation. If you look at my previous posting history I am normally the first person to advocate for humane conditions and against punishments including the death penalty, but that it only because some of those affected aren't guilty. While I acknowledge the intellectual possibility in this case I just can't be objective about it, which is another reason I have avoided this topic.

To answer your question, yes, I would sacrifice some of the mental health and safety of prison workers in order to inflict punishment on the guilty. Only problem is, how can you be %100 sure?
That's not the only problem. One other would be why would a person want to be a heartless sadist?

[Skald the Rhymer]

To answer your question, yes, I would sacrifice some of the mental health and safety of prison workers in order to inflict punishment on the guilty. Only problem is, how can you be %100 sure?

::blinking in surprise::

I thought I was the evil one hereabouts.

[Ludovic]

Say Ludovic, what's it like to live in the 17th century?Well, they also had the Inquisition, not known for its enlightened stance on the possibility of innocence. But other than that, I feel fine.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

To answer your question, yes, I would sacrifice some of the mental health and safety of prison workers in order to inflict punishment on the guilty.
Good to know. I'll make a note of it.

[Guinastasia]

To answer your question, yes, I would sacrifice some of the mental health and safety of prison workers in order to inflict punishment on the guilty. Only problem is, how can you be %100 sure?

So you'd punish 10 innocents in order to punish the one guilty, basically?

[Ludovic]

So you'd punish 10 innocents in order to punish the one guilty, basically?How did that calculus come about?

Furthermore, if we were %100 certain that the people incarcerated were guilty, I'm sure it wouldn't be as traumatic to watch them suffer.

[woodstockbirdybird]

How did that calculus come about?

Furthermore, if we were %100 certain that the people incarcerated were guilty, I'm sure it wouldn't be as traumatic to watch them suffer.

You're a cunt.

[Kalhoun]

You're a cunt.
A dumb one.

[Guinastasia]

How did that calculus come about?

Furthermore, if we were %100 certain that the people incarcerated were guilty, I'm sure it wouldn't be as traumatic to watch them suffer.

It wasn't an exact calculation-I just pulled numbers out of my ass. My point is-how many innocents suffering is worth it to punish one guilty person?

[Daithi Lacha]

Does no-one find it exceedingly odd that husband and wife are now insane, and yet at the time the kidnapping occured, both were on the ball enough to leave very little in the way of clues, and keep the child hidden for nine months, while on the move? That must have meant they knew the difference between right and wrong, and were able to communicate cohererently with each other, to be able to plan and implement those plans. What are the chances that both would now suddenly be incompetent?

:dubious: to the 9th power

[Kalhoun]

As I remember it (and I don't particularly trust my aging memory) I think the woman was pretty wigged-out when they picked them up. I don't recall the man's condition too much, but you can be pretty mental and still appear to be functioning normally.

[Indygrrl]

Furthermore, if we were %100 certain that the people incarcerated were guilty, I'm sure it wouldn't be as traumatic to watch them suffer.

I'd be concerned that anyone who is willing to do that job is just as violent and mentally ill as the prisoners they are "punishing." And then there's that whole cruel and unusual part of the constitution, but I guess you aren't factoring that into your little scenario.

[Ludovic]

There'd be a lot of other stuff I'd be willing to change given the dramatic revisions in epistemology necessary to pursue my scenario. So yes, in that case I wouldn't mind cruel and unusual punishment. OTOH:

-- I'd only support this for just laws, and
-- There is always the argument that other people could turn this punishment against myself or political enemies,

So that's 3 reasons not to implement it in actuality.

[kaylasdad99]

To answer your question, yes, I would sacrifice some of the mental health and safety of prison workers in order to inflict punishment on the guilty.Are you aware that our own Dr. Qadgop is one of those prison workers whose mental health and safety you are assigning such low importance to?

That you are stupid, and a cunt, and a stupid cunt appears to have been established. Right now I'm interested in whether we should be adding "clueless" or "evil" to the list.

[Ludovic]

Are you aware that our own Dr. Qadgop is one of those prison workers whose mental health and safety you are assigning such low importance to?

That you are stupid, and a cunt, and a stupid cunt appears to have been established. Right now I'm interested in whether we should be adding "clueless" or "evil" to the list.You, OTOH are much more eager to assert certainty than I. Who's being careless now?

[zagloba]

Does no-one find it exceedingly odd that husband and wife are now insane, and yet at the time the kidnapping occured, both were on the ball enough to leave very little in the way of clues, and keep the child hidden for nine months, while on the move?
Without commenting on their sanity, for most of that time she wasn't all that well hidden. Take a listen to Scott Carrier's radio piece "Invisible Girl", linked at the bottom of this page (http://www.hearingvoices.com/radio/0506.html) :For weeks after teenager Elizabeth Smart was kidnapped from her Salt Lake City bedroom, she walked the streets with her captors, sometimes just blocks from her home. Yet no one ever recognized her. Not a soul, even though her picture was in every paper the entire time.This story was first broadcast on "This American Life," and is a fascinating listen. Carrier lived in Smart's neighborhood. IIRC, Carrier's son describes seeing Smart and her captors around town. Many people just assumed the guy had taken a plural wife.

[Ghanima]

Does no-one find it exceedingly odd that husband and wife are now insane, and yet at the time the kidnapping occured, both were on the ball enough to leave very little in the way of clues, and keep the child hidden for nine months, while on the move? That must have meant they knew the difference between right and wrong, and were able to communicate cohererently with each other, to be able to plan and implement those plans. What are the chances that both would now suddenly be incompetent?

:dubious: to the 9th power
With all due respect, I disagree. If I believed that I was the messiah and that policemen were instruments of the devil to be avoided at all costs, and that my many underaged husbands (as commanded by God) would be taken from me by these devil-worshipping villains, and therefore I was very careful to avoid detection, would that mean that I really knew the difference between right and wrong?

[Excalibre]

With all due respect, I disagree. If I believed that I was the messiah and that policemen were instruments of the devil to be avoided at all costs, and that my many underaged husbands (as commanded by God) would be taken from me by these devil-worshipping villains, and therefore I was very careful to avoid detection, would that mean that I really knew the difference between right and wrong?
Ghanima, is there something you're not telling us?

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

Ghanima, is there something you're not telling us?

It means she has interesting hobbies.

[Kalhoun]

Are you aware that our own Dr. Qadgop is one of those prison workers whose mental health and safety you are assigning such low importance to?

That you are stupid, and a cunt, and a stupid cunt appears to have been established. Right now I'm interested in whether we should be adding "clueless" or "evil" to the list.
Ahem...that's dumb. Dumb cunt. Sheesh.

[Daithi Lacha]

Without commenting on their sanity, for most of that time she wasn't all that well hidden. Take a listen to Scott Carrier's radio piece "Invisible Girl", linked at the bottom of this page (http://www.hearingvoices.com/radio/0506.html) :This story was first broadcast on "This American Life," and is a fascinating listen. Carrier lived in Smart's neighborhood. IIRC, Carrier's son describes seeing Smart and her captors around town. Many people just assumed the guy had taken a plural wife.
Thank you very much for that link. And Ghanima, a good point, and well made. I retract my opinion, without prejudice. Seems like there's no counting the screw-ups walking around out there!

[Frank]

Furthermore, if we were %100 certain that the people incarcerated were guilty, I'm sure it wouldn't be as traumatic to watch them suffer.
Speak for yourself, pal.

I'm always amused (amused? that's not right. appalled! that's it) I'm always appalled at those who believe the solution to punishing criminals includes the agents of society being more inhumane than the criminals themselves.

Ahem...that's dumb. Dumb cunt. Sheesh.
Around here, one can't keep track of the epithets without a scorecard.

[Stealth Potato]

Ludovic, I can't help but get this vibe that you advocate inflicting horrible torment on criminals who also happen to be mentally ill. That's not justice; that's sadistic, bloodthirsty revenge, and no civilized person would ever consider it. Seriously, what the hell are you smoking? "Decided to live outside society"? Are you honestly saying that these people just up and decided one day to go crazy? Maybe gave themselves a little icepick lobotomy to speed up the process? And you say you would "revel" in their pain and suffering? It sounds like you have some seriously deep insecurity issues, pal.

If you just forgot to take your meds today and you're feeling cranky and a little bit sociopathic, I forgive you.

Otherwise, fuck you, you fucking sick sack of... crap. Yeah, I'm not too good at this swearing thing.

[Ludovic]

I'm not saying I don't deserve these epithets, yet I can't help but feel this way. Normally, even if guilt is %100 assured, the intellectual side of me wishes to impose a punishment that minimizes the suffering of those not guilty, whether it be death, imprisonment, torture, fluffy bunny huggies, or what have you. But there's something about this that makes me feel differently, and I don't like it, which is a reason I have avoided this topic for so long.

[Fear Itself]

I'm not saying I don't deserve these epithets, yet I can't help but feel this way. Were you subjected to abuse as a child, or did your parents inflict painful physical punishment on you? I have noticed a correlation between posters who share your need for strict retribution, and a history of child abuse. Care to share?

[Kalhoun]

Speak for yourself, pal.

I'm always amused (amused? that's not right. appalled! that's it) I'm always appalled at those who believe the solution to punishing criminals includes the agents of society being more inhumane than the criminals themselves.


Around here, one can't keep track of the epithets without a scorecard.
That's ok. I really just wanted to call him a cunt again.

[kaylasdad99]

You, OTOH are much more eager to assert certainty than I. Who's being careless now? :confused:

Translation, please.

Or not. I'm sure something will always be lost when going to English from Clueless-and/or-evil-dumb-(yes, thank you, Kalhoun)-cunt-ese.

[Guinastasia]

That's ok. I really just wanted to call him a cunt again.

Now now, cunts actually have their uses. Perhaps we should call him a Kevin Federline, or Pauly Shore.

[The Great Sun Jester]

You know, it was just the night before last as I was heading to my car after a fine day at work. Really it had been a good day. Just as I reached the car I was barely able to resist a sudden urge to just drop to the ground and cry my eyes out as if God Himself had come to me personally and told me that I wouldn't be joining Him in heaven. A massive wave of depression you might call it. Lasted about 5 or 6 hours and eventually faded into a mild general malaise (and yeah--I'm drugged so it used to be worse). It was then that I had a mental illness epiphany, one that might be of interest to our Ludovic.

I feel safe in saying that almost everyone has used an excess of a drug at least once in their lives. Most commonly abused would be alcohol, nicotine and caffeine. Now you know that these drugs can affect the way you think, the way your senses react to their environment, and how you intepret your world. Someone who's really drunk might become consumed by one emotion--anger, sadness, happiness--and still be able to think to himself, "woah...I'm a bit out of control here" and not be able to overpower that emotion and so the extreme behavior associated with the emotion--fighting, bawling, lovin&laughin'--continues. In my experience with a sometimes debilitating emotional disorder, it's a very similar sensation. Only the "drug" comes from within and is applied without warning and without control. The result is, from my perspective, an unsettling and violent change in mood and perception that comes out of nowhere. What others see as moody or "wacky" is really a nightmare of uncertain reality, unpredictable moods, and often hallucinations.

My point is, I live my life in MY world, and my world changes in hundreds of tiny ways every day depending on what my brains are up to. And quite frankly, in the midst of a psychotic episode, I will do what I KNOW to be right...but "normal" folks will view those actions as less than appropriate. Can you punish, even torture, someone who thought that the actions they took were appropriate when they took them? How about if those actions included a solid paranoia-based belief that brain candy drugs like Prozac, lithium, M&Ms, etc...are really mind-control drugs? Ever taken them? It's CREEPY when you notice their effects. That creepiness alone is pretty convincing when you're entertaining the thought that maybe they're mind-control drugs. What SANE person would willingly take mind-control drugs that would allow them to be manipulated by some potentially nefarious entity?

This is a tough problem for most people, not just Ludovic. Because it means that they must make the decision between relaxing their grip on their own reality long enough to understand where the "criminal" is coming from, or admitting to themselves that they really care nothing for anyone's thoughts but their own. Really. because the person that cries out for horrible retribution to avenge a third party is doing so ONLY because it makes HIM feel better about the whole event.

So in this particular case, the only difference between the punished and the punisher is which side of the bars each one is on.

[Ludovic]

However, the C-word is more hurting, because not only does the user call you what they consider a low-down epithet, they also assert their belief in a system where that organ is shameful. So even if they don't consider you equivalent to one, that's still one more person you're up against if you want to fight against that sort of polarizing, negative thought.

[Excalibre]

Now now, cunts actually have their uses.
What, like to keep a pen in or something?

[EddyTeddyFreddy]

What, like to keep a pen in or something? Hey, every one of us (other than the Caesarean-extracted) emerged from one, even you. The fact that you've had no further use for one doesn't alter their utility. :p

[Excalibre]

Hey, every one of us (other than the Caesarean-extracted) emerged from one, even you. The fact that you've had no further use for one doesn't alter their utility. :p
Plus there's no reason to ever lose your car keys . . .

[Monty]

Ludovic,

So you're willing to sacrifice the mental health of hte corrections personnel who must interact with the person you deem a pariah? What's your suggested plan of action when one of those whose mental health was sacrificed, on their off hours, does something inhumane (such as kidnaping and rape) after they've lost their mental health? Are you going to have them treated the same way? That's quite a pyramid scheme you'll have there.

[Guinastasia]

Well hell, why not go all the way? You're a convicted murderer, and you're a diabetic? No insulin for you! You need anti-seizure meds? Hey, this is prison, not Club Med!

[Monty]

Every once in a while, I wonder if I should revisit my reasons for now being 100% anti-death penalty. Then I read stuff like this thread and realize there's no reason t revisit those reasons.

[iampunha]

You, OTOH are much more eager to assert certainty than I. Who's being careless now?

Of kaylasdad99 and you, who was the one who made the decision to start the thread, a move requiring certainty?

Meanwhile, you appear not to have thought out your plan of action quite as ... unassailably as you might have initially believed. Putting people in knowingly and purposefully unsafe situations, and having not a hell of a lot in place (unless there's something I missed, of course) to help them not become the people they're serving, ... seems a bit short-sighted, not to mention inhumane and perpetuating the very thing you are trying to lessen.

[Ludovic]

Were you subjected to abuse as a child, or did your parents inflict painful physical punishment on you? I have noticed a correlation between posters who share your need for strict retribution, and a history of child abuse. Care to share?Nope, but I have witnessed clear situations where a child showed obvious signs of being abused when I was a child, but no one would believe me. And then they turned out to be true.

And then when I turned into a teenager, people suspected me of being interested in children. Well, in a more than friendly way. No legal action but it's understandable that it affected me greatly while I was still growing up.

Is it fair that people get away with stuff like that and are considered perfectly normal members of society, and people apparently wink and smile at their crimes against humanity, while I am nearly ostracized for being friendly? After all, if I had "tried harder" to talk to the child before, when I was 12, she might have opened up to me and given me firmer evidence that I could have used to prevent it.

And this woman, I won't glorify her name in print, doesn't even know what it's like to be turned away from a volunteer position just because of her gender. She would have been more accepted. Her murderous overmistress would have been more accepted and praised as a "loving caregiver." Is that right?

[Zoe]

No problem is solved when you give in to the base instinct to be cruel. It doesn't resolve feelings of rage; it just feeds on itself. You become more like that thing for which you hold contempt.

And yes, unfairness can make us bitter or we can rise above it in time. Certainly, it happens to all of us and it can be hell.

[irishgirl]

Now, I'll admit American law has me a little confused, but can I ask for some clarification please?

1. The people in question receive anti-psychotics, participate in their defence, and are found guilty- will they be sent to a secure psychiatric hospital, a psychiatric ward in a prison, or gen pop? Presumably, if they are found not guilty by reason of insanity, they'll go straight to a secure psychiatric hospital.

2. If they do not receive treatment, will they be held indefinitely in a psychiatric unit or relased to the community?

3. If they are medicated and the medication fails to return them to a mental state where they can participate in a trial, what happens next?

Oh, and Ludovic, you're an idiot with serious empathy problems and a big fucking chip on your shoulder.

[Happy Clam]

Good to know. I'll make a note of it.
I feel you aren't making any friends here, Ludovic. Better hope Qdgop never has an excuse to rectal probe you.

[Ludovic]

I feel you aren't making any friends here, Ludovic. Better hope Qdgop never has an excuse to rectal probe you.Ludo's the big bitch now. Lemme massage your dirty little prostate before I go out and fuck my daughter senseless. Jackass.

[Happy Clam]

Are you aware that our own Dr. Qadgop is one of those prison workers whose mental health and safety you are assigning such low importance to?

That you are stupid, and a cunt, and a stupid cunt appears to have been established. Right now I'm interested in whether we should be adding "clueless" or "evil" to the list.
Hell, why not both?

[Happy Clam]

Ludo's the big bitch now. Lemme massage your dirty little prostate before I go out and fuck my daughter senseless. Jackass.
Wha...wha...what the fuck?

[Ludovic]

Wha...wha...what the fuck?It's okay for everyone else. But not for me. (For instance, Iraq.) Go out and have fun.

[irishgirl]

Ludovic...that was uncalled for.

Or didn't you know that QtM's daughter is a Doper?

[Happy Clam]

It's okay for everyone else. But not for me. (For instance, Iraq.) Go out and have fun.
Your words mean nothing to me. I mean, I understand each individual one, but put in that kind of order, they have no meaning I can elucidate. I cannot parse that sentence.

You are prohibited from participating in incest while others are not? You are prohibited from engaging in any kinds of sex acts while others are not? What the hell does this have to do with Iraq? Where am I supposed to have fun? In Iraq? I don't have a daughter.

I'm not sure I want to know the answer, but... what the fuck are you typing about?

[WhyNot]

I feel like I'm in Surreal Doper Land (which is not quite the same as Surreal's Doper Land).

What the hell is this thread about? Where is it going? Is Ludovic just batshit insane?

If anyone wants to start a real thread about forced medication of prisoners, medicating suspects before trial or the safety and well-being of prison employees, I'd be happy to join in again. But this is just bizarro-world.

And Ludovic - I don't know if you're insane, or evil, or trolling. But you are certainly incoherent right now.

[jsgoddess]

I don't understand this thread, but I have a question.

Is there a statute of limitations on kidnapping charges? If this woman refused meds and if she weren't forced to take meds, could the day come when she is past that time and she suddenly gets better and nothing could be done? I'm not suggesting it would happen, but could something like that happen?

[KGS]

Some may say insanity is a fate worse than death. So be it. Don't give her (or him, if it should come up,) any mind-affecting medication. Actually, you are wrong. Insanity can be quite comforting. That's why some people choose to go insane, because they cannot tolerate the real world.

I revel in the thought that both perpetrators might spend decades chased by unshakable pain, unable to form coherent thoughts and bearing an almost unbearable burden of demons from within. In that case, give 'em anti-psychotic meds. Force them to focus, return to reality, and REALIZE where they are and what they did. That's a much, much bigger torment than babbling nonsense at the walls all day.

Think of this...antipsychotic meds can have debilitating side effects. Akathisia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akathisia), for example, is excrutiating torment -- made worse by the fact that shrinks don't see it as any big deal. I can't even imagine what that's like if you're locked in a 6x9 cell!

Also...why the insane hatred? Elizabeth Smart wasn't murdered, she wasn't even raped (I think...correct me if I'm wrong about that.) Children have a natural tendency to adapt to negative situations, her abduction was not nearly as bad to her as what you are projecting. She really seems to be getting on with her life.

[Kalhoun]

Actually, you are wrong. Insanity can be quite comforting. That's why some people choose to go insane, because they cannot tolerate the real world.

In that case, give 'em anti-psychotic meds. Force them to focus, return to reality, and REALIZE where they are and what they did. That's a much, much bigger torment than babbling nonsense at the walls all day.

Think of this...antipsychotic meds can have debilitating side effects. Akathisia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akathisia), for example, is excrutiating torment -- made worse by the fact that shrinks don't see it as any big deal. I can't even imagine what that's like if you're locked in a 6x9 cell!

Also...why the insane hatred? Elizabeth Smart wasn't murdered, she wasn't even raped (I think...correct me if I'm wrong about that.) Children have a natural tendency to adapt to negative situations, her abduction was not nearly as bad to her as what you are projecting. She really seems to be getting on with her life.
As I remember, she was sexually abused. But she's getting ready for college and looks like she's going to be just fine. Of course you never know, but I'd bet on it. Sexual abuse doesn't necessarily mean you're fucked up for the rest of your life.

[KGS]

Nope, but I have witnessed clear situations where a child showed obvious signs of being abused when I was a child, but no one would believe me. And then they turned out to be true. Stop playing the Wounded Bird program. It's not healthy. You can't save everyone.

It's okay for everyone else. But not for me. Sounds like somebody's being attacked The Conspiracy. That's a tough program to break. Try watching "The Matrix" on LSD a few times, eventually you'll find your way out. Just ignore the stupid sequels. :cool:

[WhyNot]

Wait! I got it! Ludovic is demonstrating for us what it would be like to be insane. He's so clever, and we all missed it! It's like reading this thread and nothing else, ever!

Punishment, indeed.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

Ludo's the big bitch now. Lemme massage your dirty little prostate before I go out and fuck my daughter senseless. Jackass.
Were you to be a patient of mine, I'd extend to you all the professional dignity and respect I extend to any human. This despite the fact that I personally hold you in an extraordinarily high degree of contempt now.

[Excalibre]

Is it just me, or did Ludovic actually accuse Qadgop and elfbabe of incest?

Ludovic, dude, what the fuck is wrong with you? I mean, under what circumstances would a person say that?

[Giraffe]

Ludo's the big bitch now. Lemme massage your dirty little prostate before I go out and fuck my daughter senseless. Jackass.What the fuck is wrong with you?

[Kalhoun]

Jesus...this thing just went down a dark, one-way path.

[Ludovic]

It didn't even enter my mind that the words would be taken that way. However, I would like to apologize for my previous acquiescence to the allegation that I would sacrifice health and safety of correctional workers. I get into more trouble agreeing to things that I'd never say in the first place.....

Even if I had perfect power and perfect knowledge, I would hope to have the strength to resist implementing such as regime, as my mind realizes that it is not in everyone's interest. I'm sorry for the devaluation of your profession under that statement, even if it was clear to me that I emphasized I would never recommend it under any rational circumstances.

(And while we're at it, if I were the judge in this case, I'd probably grudgingly order medication as well, due to the fact it seems legally warranted and for the 3 or more other reasons I've brought up this thread.)

[Monty]

Why would you approval be grudingly done? The person has not been tried yet, merely accused. The idea of the medical regimen is to enable the accused to have the ability to defend against the charges brought.

Now, if the accused is convicted and then sentenced to prison, the corrections personnel are responsible for the health and well-being of the prisoner. That, of course, includes treatment when warranted for mental illness.

[Ludovic]

The grudgingly would be because of my visceral reactions to this topic. This case, even. Normally I am the most sceptical person I know about railroading people through the system, even in cases like these, for reasons which should be clear by my other posts.

[Monty]

So, basically what you're saying is that you would do what human decency, compassion, and the law require even though you don't agree with the aforementioned things?

[Ludovic]

I have no moral obligation to be decent or compassionate to those who have shown they are not. The system has a legal obligation to do so, though, and I support that because not everyone in the penal system is factually guilty (or guilty of victimless crimes), and segregation from society solves 95% of the problems that arise from crime.

[Monty]

I have no moral obligation to be decent or compassionate to those who have shown they are not.
I guess that depends on your definition of morality. I give here a few quotes for you and I bolded one. Let me know if you don't recognize where they're from or if you can't figure out why I bolded the one I did.

And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

[Monstera deliciosa]

Pardon me, Monty.

I am sure you know this, but it bears repeating. There are of those of us who do not assign any moral authority to the Bible whatsoever, who still find Ludovic's attitude morally repugnant.

I for one, struggle with the idea of having compassion for perpetrators of certain heinous acts, but try to do nonetheless, because I feel it is the right thing to do. And I would always treat them decently, because for me, it is the only thing to do.

[Ludovic]

We could take the scripture as read, since I just was not arsed to disclaimer it enough, although I should always count on someone in the group to bring it up.

There are many times when an understanding, loving worldview works. It is true that in many ways Jesus's worldview is better than those at that time and has promulgated a better approach to living with one's fellow man than other moral codes at the time that did not even hold the human life and psyche as something to be preserved. However, there are also times when it will get you nowhere and will lead to more evil, not less, in the world. Winners writing the history books and all that. The thing is to determine when to harden the heart and not and I don't think anyone has the wisdom to determine that.

For those who think I am playing a game with pent-up rage trying to "win" against The Man, that's is the really scary part. I'm not. This is a real situation with real people and I grok that. I'm not the rebel youth who wants to finally prove himself. When I hear of situations like this, I don't imagine myself as the virile conqueror who Saves the Day and Kills the Inner Daemon.

I imagine myself as one who casually pulls the trigger, and me and everyone else goes back home and lives the rest of their lives just like before. No breakthroughs. No Ludo the Hero.

I just kill someone. And feel nothing emotionally. Just a transcendent moment of mental clarity. My pulse doesn't even jump. That's scary. (That is, when I do think about stuff like this, which is rare, due to its stunning non-productivity.)

[KGS]

There are many times when an understanding, loving worldview works. Not really. Jesus' view is like Marxism...good in theory, sucks in practice.

For those who think I am playing a game with pent-up rage trying to "win" against The Man, that's is the really scary part. I'm not. This is a real situation with real people and I grok that. Are we still talking about the Elizabeth Smart case here? Or that other thing you mentioned? You need to clarify.

I'm not the rebel youth who wants to finally prove himself. When I hear of situations like this, I don't imagine myself as the virile conqueror who Saves the Day and Kills the Inner Daemon. Actually, the Inner Daemon is where you should start. Get rid of (or make peace with) that part of yourself...otherwise, you will project that Daemon everywhere, and overreact to situations that don't concern your life at all.

I just kill someone. And feel nothing emotionally. Just a transcendent moment of mental clarity. My pulse doesn't even jump. That's scary. You're not even paying attention to how your words come across, are you?? Well...for sake of argument, I've never killed anyone (nor have I ever had the desire to do so -- I'm too peace-loving & dope-smoking to care) but if I did, for whatever reason, I sure as hell would want to feel it.

Becoming numb to your own pain leads to lack of compassion, which means you can't feel anyone else's pain, either. At that point, you're just firing the gun at random shadows, you don't even care what you kill anymore.

[Wolfian]

I just kill someone. And feel nothing emotionally. Just a transcendent moment of mental clarity. My pulse doesn't even jump. That's scary. (That is, when I do think about stuff like this, which is rare, due to its stunning non-productivity.)
Whoa.

[Monty]

For the life of me, I can't see how having compassion on someone yet to be tried will create more evil in the world.

[Martin Hyde]

You know, it was just the night before last as I was heading to my car after a fine day at work. Really it had been a good day. Just as I reached the car I was barely able to resist a sudden urge to just drop to the ground and cry my eyes out as if God Himself had come to me personally and told me that I wouldn't be joining Him in heaven. A massive wave of depression you might call it. Lasted about 5 or 6 hours and eventually faded into a mild general malaise (and yeah--I'm drugged so it used to be worse). It was then that I had a mental illness epiphany, one that might be of interest to our Ludovic.

I feel safe in saying that almost everyone has used an excess of a drug at least once in their lives. Most commonly abused would be alcohol, nicotine and caffeine. Now you know that these drugs can affect the way you think, the way your senses react to their environment, and how you intepret your world. Someone who's really drunk might become consumed by one emotion--anger, sadness, happiness--and still be able to think to himself, "woah...I'm a bit out of control here" and not be able to overpower that emotion and so the extreme behavior associated with the emotion--fighting, bawling, lovin&laughin'--continues. In my experience with a sometimes debilitating emotional disorder, it's a very similar sensation. Only the "drug" comes from within and is applied without warning and without control. The result is, from my perspective, an unsettling and violent change in mood and perception that comes out of nowhere. What others see as moody or "wacky" is really a nightmare of uncertain reality, unpredictable moods, and often hallucinations.

My point is, I live my life in MY world, and my world changes in hundreds of tiny ways every day depending on what my brains are up to. And quite frankly, in the midst of a psychotic episode, I will do what I KNOW to be right...but "normal" folks will view those actions as less than appropriate. Can you punish, even torture, someone who thought that the actions they took were appropriate when they took them? How about if those actions included a solid paranoia-based belief that brain candy drugs like Prozac, lithium, M&Ms, etc...are really mind-control drugs? Ever taken them? It's CREEPY when you notice their effects. That creepiness alone is pretty convincing when you're entertaining the thought that maybe they're mind-control drugs. What SANE person would willingly take mind-control drugs that would allow them to be manipulated by some potentially nefarious entity?

This is a tough problem for most people, not just Ludovic. Because it means that they must make the decision between relaxing their grip on their own reality long enough to understand where the "criminal" is coming from, or admitting to themselves that they really care nothing for anyone's thoughts but their own. Really. because the person that cries out for horrible retribution to avenge a third party is doing so ONLY because it makes HIM feel better about the whole event.

So in this particular case, the only difference between the punished and the punisher is which side of the bars each one is on.

If you can't tell the difference between right and wrong, you need to be in segregated from society.

[irishgirl]

Martin Hyde- Inigo was saying that sometimes he might make inappropriate choices (not "wrong" choices) about his own medical care because of his mental state. That is vastly different to saying that he cannot tell the difference between right and wrong.

[jsgoddess]

For the life of me, I can't see how having compassion on someone yet to be tried will create more evil in the world.

If you believe that forcing medications is "evil" then it could be. I don't know where I stand, honestly, on forced treatment.

[Diane]

Does no-one find it exceedingly odd that husband and wife are now insane, and yet at the time the kidnapping occured, both were on the ball enough to leave very little in the way of clues, and keep the child hidden for nine months, while on the move? That must have meant they knew the difference between right and wrong, and were able to communicate cohererently with each other, to be able to plan and implement those plans. What are the chances that both would now suddenly be incompetent?

:dubious: to the 9th power

I used to work downtown Salt Lake City. Prior to the kidnapping, these two were very visible as one of the local street kooks. Let me assure you, they certainly appeared insane everytime I saw them.

Being mentally ill, even to the point of incompentency, does not equal stupid.

BTW - she was raped.

[KGS]

If you can't tell the difference between right and wrong, you need to be in segregated from society. Technically, there's no such thing as absolute "right" and "wrong". Except, in the sense of reaching your goal -- for example, if I was driving to Best Buy and went south on the 101 instead of north, I would have made a "wrong" turn. But there's nothing immoral about that.

What is important, however, is maintaining the social compact. We have laws, which each individual inherently agrees to just by existing in the free world. Violate those laws, and you are punished. This doesn't mean the laws themselves are moral and just, civil disobedience is also an option. (Although few people advocate the kidnap & molestation of Mormon teenage girls...well, maybe NAMBLA does.) My point is, it's all about obeying the law, and accepting the consequence of violating the law. If a person can't recognize the social compact, then you've got a problem.

[Guinastasia]

KGS, NAMBLA wouldn't advocate kidnapping of girls. Young Mormon boys, maybe.

(Why oh why couldn't they have taken Donny and Marie instead?)

[Kalhoun]

KGS, NAMBLA wouldn't advocate kidnapping of girls. Young Mormon boys, maybe.

(Why oh why couldn't they have taken Donny and Marie instead?)
(Snort!)

[Monty]

If you believe that forcing medications is "evil" then it could be. I don't know where I stand, honestly, on forced treatment.
In this case, I feel that the judge made an appropriate decision. The accused can't participate in her own defense due to a mental illness. Society, IMHO, has a legitimate interest in determining, via a criminal trial, if the accused was responsible for her actions during the commission of the crimes of which she has been accused. There are a few possibilities that can come out of this:

1) The treatment does not succeed in enabling her to participate in her defense.
2) The treatment does succeed and during the trial it is determined that she was not responsible at the time of the crimes.
3) The treatment does succeed and during the trial it is determined that she was responsible at the time of the crimes.
4) The treatment does succeed and during the trial she is acquitted.

I don't see #4 happening. For the other three, she will then be institutionalized and receive treatment for her current mental illness.