Excuse me stuyguy, get back in your box.

[oldscratch]

In this (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=37364) thread, jjjfishe wrote the following

At clubs, my friends and I would make up these outrageous occupations and tell them to guys that were interested in us.
We got this idea from an episode of "Mad About You"
I don't really know why we did this... I guess it's a little cruel.

But it was funny to see the look on a guy's face he asks what you do and you reply,
"I'm a pipelayer"
(Keep in mind we were just a bunch of giggling girls all dressed up in little skirts.... did not look at all like construction workers.)
and they inquire to know more so you drop a load of junk and with a straight and serious face you reply,
"I'm responsible for most of the pipelaying work which includes repairing and installing residential sanitary and stormwater sewer structures and pipe systems. I mostly work on the pipe layouts but occasionally I'll operate the tandem dump truck, the backhoe, or the front end loaders."

We've told a number of stories from being Circus Carnies, to mechanics...

We never really had any intention on meeting guys at the clubs. We were just there to dance!

to which a clearly not right thinking stuyguy replied with this little gem

jjjfishe:

Obviously you weren't "just there to dance."

You were there to lie and make some perfectly reasonable, unsuspecting guy seem like a moron just so you and your icebitch girlfriends could get your jollies.

I hope I never run into cruel, mind-fucking idiot women like you.


jjjfishe put this

yikes stuyguy...that is a horrible thing to say.

I can say that I have NEVER called anyone a "mind-fucking idiot" (or anything rude) though. That does seem equally as cruel!

Besides...I've grown up since then and learned the error of my ways.

and I put this


I've never gotten any bad rejection lines. But I do think that stuyguy is out of line. WTF? What is wrong with going to a bar and having fun with other people. It's not like she was doing anything really cruel, she was just going and having fun with her friends. I really don't know what your problem is, but with an attitude like that I'd be surprised if you ever got laid.


at this point stuyguy responded with this


Mr. C, my apologies for rehijacking this thread, but I want to respond to jjj and oldscratch.

Oldscratch wrote:

"What is wrong with going to a bar and having fun with other people..."

First, in my opinion, oldscratch, "having fun with other people," is not the same as having fun at other people's expense, especially when those other people are strangers. The former is okay; the latter is not.

Now, before I move to my main point, I should say that I am no innocent player in this discussion. I've done some lousy, spineless things in my interactions with women. (Things like promising I'd call and not doing it... that sort of thing).

But every single bad thing I ever did was because I was immature, insecure or -- most often -- cowardly. (BTW, I sense those emotions from several of the "rejectors" mentioned on this thread -- people who don't intend to be rude or mean, but when "put on the spot" can only muster a panicy, lame, off-putting rejection or phone hang-up.) I'm not proud of any of those things I did, and if any of the women called me on it, I'd apologize and take my lumps, because I deserved them; I wouldn't try to backpedal, make light of it, or rationalize it, like jjj did.

That said, here's why what jjj did is so absolutely and utterly reprehensible:

When I made women feel small and foolish by my actions, I did so going in with the best of intentions -- even when I was too spineless to see things through to the end. But when jjj and her pals made guys feel small and foolish, she did it for sport.

See, that's the real issue -- SHE DID IT FOR SPORT.


Now, I'm putting this here to further avoid hijacking the thread. So here goes.

Did you read her post? How did you get out of it that she made guys feel small and foolish. Hell, if they felt that way it was their own fault. They aproached the women. You ever heard of the phrase "ask me no questions I'll tell you lno lies". Well the men aproached them. They asked them, and the women lied. So what?!? Who doesn't tell small little white lies while in bars. Theirs just happened to be funny enough that anyone with a third of a brain could see through it. Could you be bitter because you're the type of person who'd be taken in by this? At least she didn't act like a fucking little spineless coward like you have.

[Bear_Nenno]

Personally, I think only an idiot would believe these girls anyway... and idiots get what they deserve!
I would love to meet some pretty girls at a club telling me about some insane profession they are obviously making up off the top of their head. It shows they are spontaneous and creative and playful. I would be laughing my ass off and encouraging it by asking more detailed questions like, "So what happens when a main pipe breaks?" And see how extemporaneous she is!!
I don't see anything wrong with what they did!
Maybe stuyguy is just sexually frustrated or maybe some girl told him she was a rich doctor just so he would sleep with her.

[BoBettie]

I personally think it's hysterically funny. A pipelayer! A carnie?? ::snort::

A cruel, mindfucking idiot? Please! Talk about sensitive...
To me, that's like a guy that I introduce myself to saying he's a seamstress or something. Who the hell cares?

Zette

[yojimbo]

Well over here that sort of thing is called "having the craic" . It's just a piece of fun.

It seems stuyguy takes things way to seriously and also doesn't really have a clue how to have fun. Anybody with an a sense of humour and a bit of commonsense would see that that situation could be fun and also a good way to impress a girl with your own wit.

The terms icebitch girlfriends and mind-fucking idiot women says a lot about his POV when it comes to women .

They were in a bar to have fun you fucking idiot and if you're to stupid to see that's all they were having may you enjoy you're humourless single life :rolleyes:

[jjjfishe]

Originally posted by Bear_Nenno
Personally, I think only an idiot would believe these girls anyway... and idiots get what they deserve!
I would love to meet some pretty girls at a club telling me about some insane profession they are obviously making up off the top of their head. It shows they are spontaneous and creative and playful. I would be laughing my ass off and encouraging it by asking more detailed questions like, "So what happens when a main pipe breaks?" And see how extemporaneous she is!!
I don't see anything wrong with what they did!
Maybe stuyguy is just sexually frustrated or maybe some girl told him she was a rich doctor just so he would sleep with her.

Thanks Oldscratch, Bear_Nenno, and Zette.
Stuyguy was starting to make me feel so completely horrible.
Most of the guys we said that to did catch on. We choked at some of their questions. The guys knew more than we could make up on the spot. So we ended up looking like the idiots... but we didn't care.
I'd like to know how many people actually met their future husband at a club. I have never taken club people seriously. I guess I've never given any of them a chance....
The guys I've talked to at clubs all have similar interests in getting layed that night.
Maybe I just attract the wrong ones at clubs but I prefer to meet men elsewhere.

[xizor]

Originally posted by jjjfishe
Maybe I just attract the wrong ones at clubs but I prefer to meet men elsewhere.

Nah, you are pretty much right on jjjfishe. And good for you for making up outrages occupations. Give 'em a challenge. Make them work for that dance.

Here is a funny one you can use in the future, it was actually used on me - "I'm a prostitute, but today is my day off, so I'm just here to dance."

[aenea]

I don't think you were being mean either.

StuyGuy, I am into body art, to a point. I wear a small jewel just below the eyebrow on the right side. I wear it every day, and have for a few years now. Many times I am approached by people who want to believe that this is a piercing and it's sooo cool, and can they check it out? I tell most people that it is like a small fish hook and just hooks right into the skin. They believe it. It's not pierced at all, I use a body safe glue. But they want to believe it, I swear. I could put the back of an earring on the other side of my head and tell people it was pierced all the way thru and there would be people that would just say "didn't that hurt?".

Am I being mean to them? It's exactly what jj was doing, only in a different setting.

[Demo]

This is interesting. Back in the day I used to tell people at clubs that I was a trucker for Tyson's Chicken. Just as a gag, and to see how they would respond. Most caught on before I erupted in laughter. Nonetheless, it doesn't sound like JJ was doing it with the intent to harm anyone's feelings, just having a bit of fun. That is what you're supposed to do when you go out right? Have fun?


OTOH, I have seen a lot of people, mostly girls but not all, at clubs who feel that, because they're not there to meet anyone, it gives them the right to be assholes to people when approached. They can rot in hell for all I care. Perhaps stuyguy has ran into too many of these types.

Either way stuyguy, you're out of line.

[Mr. Cynical]

Sure, Stuyguy was out of line in that forum. However, he does have just as much right to voice his opinon as any one of us does. And, contrary to what appears to be popular belief, he is also allowed to read a paragraph the way he sees it. Different people perceive things in different fashions. My perception of occurances is based upon prior experience. The breakdown in communication is obviously that two different people had different points of reference.

If you cannot see that, then fine. That's your perception. Mine does not matter to this thread, or to you, I'm sure. But, it's mine, and I voiced it.

[Lexicon]

It sounds like stuy_guy had a stick up his ass.

I used to be into the club scene big-time when I was single. I would meet chicks like Demo is talking about, who were not there to meet people, so when a guy said hi, they'd give him an ugly expression and snort before rolling their eyes and ignoring him. Those cunts can suck my ass.

But I also met plenty of chicks who would act like jjj seems to have been. You would talk to them and they would smile and giggle and tell you about how they were a skydiving instructor or and deep-sea welder on off-shore oil rigs, or some other Hollywood occupation like that.
I found that when you responded in kind, that you ended up laughing and having a good time, trying to out-do one another with tall tales. It was a great fuckin' time. I always had a blast.

One time this girlie told me that she was a buyer for bars and restaurants. She explained that she went all around the country and sometimes the world and bought all the shit you see hanging off the walls in restaurants.
I told her that I was a code-breaker for the NSA. I had a knack for cracking code and deciphered top-secret classified shit.

Another time a chic told me she was a clerk in the library of Congress. I told her I designed logos for fast food containers like cups and wrappers and happy-meal boxes and shit.
The list goes on and on:

Her: Car-crusher operator in a junk-yard
Me: Elvis impersonator

Her: Foot model
Me: Color-blindness test tester

Her: Traveling Gatorade PR rep
Me: Door-knob design artist

Her: Heavy front-end loader driver in a strip mine.
Me: Heavy front-end bouncer in strip club.

This sort of shit would happen all the time, and it was great.

Like Mr. C said, I think that

"What we have here is... failure to communicate."

I really hope it's always like this. My girlfriend and I want to go to a club and pretend we're single so we can hook up with each other later in the night.
I want to talk to some girls who are just there to have some fun and aren't looking to meet any meat, you know? Just have some fun with a cool person, escaping reality without gettin' knee-walkin' drunk?
That'll be cool.

[Silo]

Stuyguy, you take the bar scene way too seriously. It's all about fun and games. People usually go to bars to relax, socialize, and\or get laid. So dude, chill out and play along--have a good time, and maybe get some.

Um-k.

Now if I ever catch you trying to start stuff with my sweet lil laminated listee (jjj:)), I'm gonna have to smack ya 'round with my ignorance paddle, and then I'll pay some doof to stook ya sideways!

:wally

[stuyguy]

Well, lookee here. A whole thread devoted to my post in the "rejection" thread. Oldscratch, you'll make me famous yet!

Gee, so much to respond to... I'm going to hit a few key points which occurred to me as I read this. Here goes:

1. First and foremost, let none of you defenders of jjj lose sight of the fact that you're defending a self-confessed liar. I don't mean that to sound over-dramatic, but it really is as the very foundation of this discussion. If you're comfortable with that, let's move on.

2. jjj, I've got a question about some things you wrote in your post, namely:

"I don't really know why we did this... I guess it's a little cruel." And: "I've grown up since then and learned the error of my ways."

It sounds like even YOU think you did something wrong. Yes? So, since Bear_Nenno, Zette, yojimbo and xizor seem to think you are utterly blameless, I hope that you will correct them in their mistaken opinion.

3. Regarding the "outrageous occupations" that so many of you find transparently bogus... maybe in the provincial burgs where you guys come from, female construction workers and male seamstresses are far-fetched, but let me assure you, where I live they are not. Maybe that's why so many of you are so quick to defend jjj, because saying a woman is a pipelayer is as utterly absurd as saying she's from Jupiter.

But, my point of reference is different. To give you an example, a hot, cute miniskirt-wearing former colleague of mine was... a zookeeper. No shit. She told me all sorts of -- utterly true -- stories about feeding elephants and dealing with bears. I also know a friend of a friend who is a full-time toy inventor. Another friend of mine wrote one Broadway musical and has another scheduled to open next year. People like these -- who all you jjj defenders would think are blowing smoke up your ass -- are very common here in NYC. In fact, I could probably list a half dozen things I've done MYSELF that would have some of you walking away calling me a bullshit artist. Yet they'd all be true.

And one more thing, jjj. When you go pulling some guy's chain about being a pipelayer, what does that do to the credibility of some woman who actually IS one? I bet you wouldn't have the nerve to claim that you were, say, a wounded war vet, especially if your father was one. It would be sort of an insult to him, right? Well, I'll bet a REAL female pipelayer has to put up with some serious macho hazing shit so she can feed her kids. But thanks to you, she'll get laughed off the next barstool because "everyone knows there no such thing as a woman pipelayer."

4. Now, oldscratch (I really DO like your name. Devil's advocate and all, eh?), you seem to think that strangers -- only by virtue of the fact that they are strangers -- are not entitled to be told the truth. (You wrote "They asked them, and the women lied. So what?!?") If this is REALLY how you feel, let's close this thread right now because we'll never agree.

I, however, feel, if there is no risk to myself or others, strangers are entitled to be told the truth -- whether asking me for the time, or directions, or even what I do for a living. (Under your "ask me no questions, I'll tell you no lies" policy you'd have no quams misdirecting a lost tourist down the wrong street, I suppose.)

If I was uncomfortable with a stranger's question -- as jjj is entitled to feel when guys approached her -- I would not lie; I'd change the subject, or say it's none of their business. But that's not what jjj did; as I said before, she made sport out of their ignorance.

5. As for the whole "hey, it's a bar -- anything goes, lies be damned" attitude... I personally find it repugnant (the attitude, not the bar!). Let's face it, bars (parties and clubs, too) are very major male-female interactivity spots. Dishonesty poisons the already-stressful relationship between the sexes. To make it excusable in the number one meeting venue can only make a bad situation worse.

6. Lastly, a lot of the excuses being made on jjj's behalf concern the question of harm, and the degree of harm... namely, that the dupes were not insulted, or that they were not insulted very much. (Oldscratch seems to feel that even if they were, screw 'em -- it's their own fault. Oldscratch, there seems to be no hope for you, I'm afraid.)

I think all of you -- especially jjj -- should think long and hard about this before you conclude that no harm was done. Read this board. Read the original "rejection" thread. Read about how people feel when they found out that someone asked them out on a date on a dare -- THIRTY YEARS AGO. Or when someone called them ugly. Or fat. And not just by classmates, or coworkers, but by total strangers -- who they still remember because of one mean comment.

When you're through with those, read the thread by the terrified guy who wanted our advice about how to muster up the courage to ask a girl out. Then imagine that he gets up the courage -- and you're the girl, jjj.

NOW do you think it's harmless to fuck with his head?

[Profane]

Originally posted by jjjfishe
[BI'd like to know how many people actually met their future husband at a club. I have never taken club people seriously. I guess I've never given any of them a chance....
[/B]
I actually met my husband at a nightclub/bar. He didn't hit on me, though. We were just talking, as we happened to have a mutual aquiantance. Actually, he didn't hardly say anything, he was too shy.

Back to the OP, I also think Stuyguy was seriouly over reacting. If jjjfishe and her friends were trying to be bitchy I am sure they could come up with something better. It sounded to me like they were actually engaging in conversation, not just blowing guys off summarily.
Stuyguy also obviously has no idea what it's like to get hit on repeatedly. I used to wish I had a large sign to wear on my head saying NO THANKS, I'M NOT INTERESTED. I always tried to be polite but sometimes at the end of the night I just wanted to scream "Fuck off, you drunk, ugly stupid pervert/fratboy/squid. Why the hell do you think I'd go home with a complete stranger? Do I look like a mentally incapacitated slut?"
And what is up with the "I used to do mean thing to women, but because that's ok because I had good intentions" bullshit. You are an asshole and I hope more women cut you down to size. Maybe you should worry about your own shortcomings before you jump on jjjfishe.
So there.

[stuyguy]

Lunasea, you wrote:

"And what is up with the "I used to do mean thing to women, but because that's ok because I had good intentions" bullshit. You are an asshole and I hope more women cut you down to size. Maybe you should worry about your own shortcomings before you jump on jjjfishe."


Let's get something straight: I NEVER said what I've done was okay. If I hurt someone, it was a terrible thing.

And if I intentionally toyed with someone's emotions -- as I believe jj has -- it would be terrible thing too. But, I think I can honestly say that I have an entirely clear conscience on that score.

And rest assured, Luna, I do worry about my shortcomings every day.

[SPOOFE]

Yeesh, Stuy, you must be a politician or a lawyer...

It comes down to this... while out on the town, she had some fun. So she didn't stick to the ol' straight and narrow... what harm was done? She didn't toy with someone's emotions, she didn't break any hearts... oh horrors!! Some random high school punk that she'll never see again walks away from the conversation thinking that she's a maintenance worker!!! Oh, the humanity!

In short... are you in any position to say that she did a horrible thing? No, you are not. Are you in any position to say "You did something wrong"? No, you are not. Are you in any position to make unwarranted assumptions about her lifestyle and/or experiences? No, you are not.

So, that being said, why are you acting like such an asshole over this, hmm? Could it be that you're just an... nah, that can't be it, can it?

[BoBettie]

Get over it! It's called a "joke". Look into it.

Oh, AND I hope that you will correct them in their mistaken opinion.

My opinion is exactly that- MY opinion. It is not a mistake. Oh, and since we're in the pit- bugger off! Here's a dollar- go buy a sense of humor.

Zette

[Milossarian]

I agree stuyguy was harsh. But isn't it kind of cold and mean to have a laugh at a guy's expense because he makes the critical mistake of expressing interest in you?

Some people occasionally go to clubs not just to dance, but to meet people. Because signs aren't worn discerning the two groups, you could kindly let a person know which group you are in without lying to them and potentially humiliating them.

Thank God you aren't the person I talked to as referenced in this recent MPSIMS thread (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=37156), jjj.

[Jack Batty]

I've been idly lurking this thread. My first opinion upon reading the OP was that yes, Stuyguy was being too harsh on JJJ, and that yes JJJ had just been dabbling in some relatively harmless fun.

Then I read Stuyguy's rebuttal. Now I am of the opinion that Stuyguy is an idiot.

I think Spoofe hit the nail on the head. JJJ didn't emasculate anybody. In fact, in some way's she was actually "flirting" {gasp}, the little tart. When I was single, when approaching a woman in a bar, I would much rather enter into a conversation about fictional occupations, than to be told "fuck off, loser." - That's emasculation.

If you are really in such a twist over this, Stuyguy, I'd recommend medication.

[yojimbo]

stuyguy what did jjjfishe say to imply that she was fucking with guys heads . The girls were joking with them . It's implied in her own post that she and her friends thought that it was obvious that it was a joke and that they were not even that good at it .

Now if she said that she liked playing with poor schmoe's who are trying to pick her up by making fun of them then you might have a point but that's not what was said .

You also may think that the world should be a place where everyone has to be anal about their honesty , no joking , exaggerating while flirting , little white lies etc . If you do think that then we live on different pages and we will never see eye to eye .

You can take you patronising "maybe in the provincial burgs where you guys come from" comment and stick it where the sun don't shine . Your the one that seems small minded and not used to the way things really are and your from the great and mighty NYC . So fucking what ?
Do you know me ? Do you know any of the people your talking to ? People can live in a small town (I live in a city of ~1.5million BTW) but still have travelled the world and meet countless of different kinds of people with different attitudes to life .

I closing I would just like to say that I really think you've picked this up wrong. You over-reacted in a big way and were very insulting to another poster . IMO you should apoligise and take a moment to try and see why you reacted in such a way to a fairly harmless post .

[oldscratch]

I'm just waiting for stuyguy to call Democritus a coldhearted ice bitch because he told women that he was a Tyson Chicken truck driver.


Stuyguy meet reality, it's your friend.

[Maeglin]

When I first read this thread, I have to admit that I completely agreed with stuyguy. There is no excuse for being as arrogant as those bitches who assume that just because a guy wants to talk he also wants to fuck her, and consequently using some dumbass line to get rid of him.

If that had been the issue, then I would have had a lot more sympathy. Sure, jjj might not have been playing the field, so to speak, but she wasn't being a bitch. Fuck all of you who thought she was flirting, since she said:

We never really had any intention on meeting guys at the clubs. We were just there to dance!

Bottom line is she wasn't trying to be rude, wasn't trying to get rid of guys, but was just trying to make conversation. Most people probably don't think their own jobs are worth talking about, so telling bolface lies probably makes for better conversation.

I totally understand where sutyguy is coming from. Despite his overreaction, some of you came down way too harshly. The bottom line is that stuyguy should have been more sensitive to the context of what jjjfishe was doing rather than associating her immediately with all of the ice bitches who do the shit he was talking about.

MR

[yojimbo]

Bollocks . I've really got to work on my your v's you're

[stuyguy]

Okay, here I go again.

First, yojimbo -- I'm not going to stick my NYC comment anywhere. I regret that that remark came off arrogantly, but how is it that everyone is so accepting of the fact that the idea of a female construction worker is so patently absurd? Everone who disagreed with me took it on blind faith that it was OBVIOUS she was joking?

(And Democritous, maybe I AM thick, but why is the idea that you drove a Tyson's truck -- a pretty common profession -- so obviouly rediculous/ironis? Is it a pun on your real name or something? Your testimonial was the only one that went way, way over my head)

Let me say a couple of more random things:

1. Spoofe, no, I'm not a lawyer or politician. And I know that reasoned debate/discussion is not the coin of the realm here in the Pit, but it's my defense of choice. I did not put this thread here; I would have preferred it in IMHO, but here it is and so be it. I'll take my lumps in the form of swearwords if I have to, but that means you get hear my "lawyerly" retorts. Take that!

2. I want to clarify something that seems to be getting twisted -- and it's probably my fault. I do NOT think that jjj was being INTENTIONALLY hurtful (though it's obvious that she was being intentionally dishonest). But, she was playing with fire. Maybe she does not agree (...many of her defenders certainly don't...), but I contend that the emotional stakes are a lot higher than she knew or was willing to admit. I still stand by this point. I think it's fine and dandy that so many of you enjoy being toyed with like this. But why do you think that everyone does? And that those of us who don't should come up (down?) to your standards? Do you think we just want to spoil your fun?

3. Yojimbo, yeah, I am anal about honesty.

4. Spoofe (and others), you make a valid point in asking me to PROVE that someone has been harmed by jjj's actions. Simply, I can't. But neither can I prove that someone will definately be offended by a Jewish joke told in a mixed group of strangers. Nor that the kid who steals a stop sign to put on his dorm room wall will cause an accident. But I know a lot of shy, very trusting (you'd call them gullible) "nice" guys who'd find jjj's behavior very distateful. Like I said, I think she's playing with fire; will she burn someone's house down? Maybe not. But maybe she will.

5. Milo, thanks for posting (sort-of) on my behalf. (And, I am VERY happy for you. Please forgive me for using you as an example, but you're right at hand and you're all I've got right now!) The sense I get from a lot of jjj's defenders is that people like Milo (and my trusting buddies,... and me) don't belong in your bars. We're not entitled to socializing or companionship because we wear our egos on our sleeves. That, in my opinion, is arrogance, yojimbo. But, if you want to be that way, fine. But don't be upset when someone calls you on it. People who speed are speeders; people who cheat on their taxes are tax cheats; and people who lie are liars.

[stuyguy]

BTW, did you know that the OED considers "ironis" as an acceptable alternate spelling for "ironic"?

Didn't think so.






(See, Zette, I do have a sense of humor. Keep your dollar.)

[oldscratch]

Originally posted by stuyguy
I do NOT think that jjj was being INTENTIONALLY hurtful

and


you and your icebitch girlfriends....and....I hope I never run into cruel, mind-fucking idiot women like you.


To me this shows you as a misogynist and an all around fucker. That's why I started the thread. You are entitled to the opinion that she was playing with fire and she could have hurt someone. Frankly I can't see it. I see people in bars lying about their professions all the time (mostly claiming that they don't work for dot-coms). She just happened to do it in a funny manner. No, no one thinks it incredulous that a woman could be a construction worker. She even says that most catch on. Do you call people who lie about their age icebitchs too? Again, I noticed that you weren't nearly as harsh on Demo. I call it as I see it. Misogyinist.

[xizor]

Originally posted by Democritus
Back in the day I used to tell people at clubs that I was a trucker for Tyson's Chicken. Just as a gag, and to see how they would respond. Most caught on before I erupted in laughter.

I feel dumb now, I don't see the gag here. What is funny about a trucker for Tyson's Chciken?

[stuyguy]

Old, before I go on I've got to say that your crack: "Stuyguy meet reality, it's your friend" is the most ironic (...not ironis...) thing said on this board.

Reality IS my friend... that's what this thread is all about!

"Reality" is that jjj is NOT a pipelayer. "Reality" is that she's someone who exploits someone else's trusting nature for sport.

You seem to think that my silence about Democritus implies my endorsement of his actions. It does not. If it'll make you happy to drag him in as exhibit B, I'd be happy too. jjj was here first, that's all.

Democritus-types are very, very much part of the problem. I suspect that guys pull/pulled the phoney-job stunt more than girls, and that today's women are just following suit. The only thing Democitus has going for him is that he seems to have 'fessed up every time, and in a sort of self-depricating way. (Also, there may be a real joke at work in the Tyson Chicken business, but again, I'm not getting it.)

Which brings up another thing that a lot of you apologists are sweeping under the rug. Oldscratch said "She even says that most catch on."

Fine, MOST catch on. What about the rest? C'mon jjj, when all was said and done did you 'fess up in the end like Democritus? Every time? Or did a couple of "poor schmoes" tell their buddies the next day, "Hey, guess what. I met a girl zookeeper yesterday!" only to be laughed at and called a gullible asshole?

[Turpentine]

Yes, being rejected at a club is hurtful.

But it is not as if she was going to clubs to be cruel, she was having fun.

If the guy was reasonably intelligent, a clever conversation could have come of this and they both could have had fun.

I do it too, in a way. If someone asks me what I do, I say
"I'm a taxidermist." Only in my case this is true, and few people ever believe me until I prove it and name the store (Flyrabbit in Allston MA) where my work is sold.

I tell the truth because i like the reactions I get, even though people rarely believe me.

I met my current boyfriend at a club, even though I never go out to clubs with the intention of meeting a new boyfriend. I told him I was a taxidermist and he said "Cool. I'm a puppeteer! So could you make me a marionette puppet out of a deer? I will paint it green and put sneakers on it!"

I don't have anything new to add, really. I just wanted to say that I agree with those who said that this sort of things is not a big deal. Don't take this stuff so seriously.

[Jack Batty]

Originally posted by stuyguy
Or did a couple of "poor schmoes" tell their buddies the next day, "Hey, guess what. I met a girl zookeeper yesterday!" only to be laughed at and called a gullible asshole?

At which point I'm sure they promptly shot themselves in the head to escape this mortifying humiliation.

For Chrissake's man, you gotta develop a sense of humor or this world is just going to beat you silly.

[Demo]

Yo, everybody be talkin' 'bout Democritus! ;)


Sorry, I guess I'm in trouble now. There really is nothing funny about being a Tyson's Chicken truck driver, unless you're in to petty, sophomoric, holier-than-thou humor like I am. I guess it's a fine line. It's like making fun of people who shop at WalMart. I guess the funny part was, I certainly didn't look like a stereotypical trucker, hence the humor. I think that was the basis for most of the humor. No one meant to imply that there weren't female pipe-layers, just that JJ probably doesn't look like a stereotypical pipelayer. You can criticize it all you want, but the intentions are pure and the joke is a very lighthearted one.

[stuyguy]

I just read Milo's thread, top to bottom:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=37712

Every single one of you jjj apologists should read it, especially jjj herself and oldscratch. And all you others who are telling me to lighten up and get a sense of humor, too.

Read it and see what you're dealing with in terms of human emotion -- the way Milo is utterly GUSHING cuz he got up the nerve to talk to this girl. And then there're all the other shy Dopers coming out of the woodwork to pat him on the back for his courage.

Go ahead, read the whole thing.

Now he thinks -- mind you, thinks -- she's an engineer from out of town. But what if he had overheard her conversation with her girlfriends or the orange-shirt-guy and learned that she wasn't? That she was "[dropping] a load of junk and with a straight and serious face," as jjj originally put it?

I'm sorry, but how you can defend such behavior is utterly beyond me.

[Mojo]

Holy crap- you mean that a rabbi, the pope, and Bill Clinton didn't really walk into a bar together? I've been led astray!?!?

[jjjfishe]

Originally posted by stuyguy
Well, lookee here. A whole thread devoted to my post in the "rejection" thread. Oldscratch, you'll make me famous yet!

Gee, so much to respond to... I'm going to hit a few key points which occurred to me as I read this. Here goes:

1. First and foremost, let none of you defenders of jjj lose sight of the fact that you're defending a self-confessed liar. I don't mean that to sound over-dramatic, but it really is as the very foundation of this discussion. If you're comfortable with that, let's move on.

Well Stuyguy... I was not asking and I will never ask you to take me seriously. You might as well stop reading here anyway...because the words to follow may contain a bit of humor. Feel free to believe anything I say.

Disclaimer: Keep in mind that any future post made by jjjfishe may be made in jest.


2. jjj, I've got a question about some things you wrote in your post, namely:

"I don't really know why we did this... I guess it's a little cruel." And: "I've grown up since then and learned the error of my ways."

I do admit it's a little cruel. I haven't done it since I was younger. I don't think that those people having done it deserve to be called "mind-fucking idiots" though. That's a little drastic and way out of line.



It sounds like even YOU think you did something wrong. Yes? So, since Bear_Nenno, Zette, yojimbo and xizor seem to think you are utterly blameless, I hope that you will correct them in their mistaken opinion.

Bear_Nenno, Zette, yojimbo and xizor...stick with me...I'm going in!


3. Regarding the "outrageous occupations" that so many of you find transparently bogus... maybe in the provincial burgs where you guys come from, female construction workers and male seamstresses are far-fetched, but let me assure you, where I live they are not. Maybe that's why so many of you are so quick to defend jjj, because saying a woman is a pipelayer is as utterly absurd as saying she's from Jupiter.

But, my point of reference is different. To give you an example, a hot, cute miniskirt-wearing former colleague of mine was... a zookeeper. No shit. She told me all sorts of -- utterly true -- stories about feeding elephants and dealing with bears. I also know a friend of a friend who is a full-time toy inventor. Another friend of mine wrote one Broadway musical and has another scheduled to open next year. People like these -- who all you jjj defenders would think are blowing smoke up your ass -- are very common here in NYC. In fact, I could probably list a half dozen things I've done MYSELF that would have some of you walking away calling me a bullshit artist. Yet they'd all be true.

I was sixteen at the time I said those things...yes...sixteen. Any guy with half a brain could figure out that a sixteen year old girl was not a pipelayer. As I said in an earlier post, most of the guys I've met are only interested in getting layed that night. They absolutely have no interest in anything a girl says. So, why not have some fun with it. I think it's far better than blowing them off and acting like a snob - like a lot of girls will do. At least I do recognize their existance...and give them a conversation.

And one more thing, jjj. When you go pulling some guy's chain about being a pipelayer, what does that do to the credibility of some woman who actually IS one? I bet you wouldn't have the nerve to claim that you were, say, a wounded war vet, especially if your father was one. It would be sort of an insult to him, right? Well, I'll bet a REAL female pipelayer has to put up with some serious macho hazing shit so she can feed her kids. But thanks to you, she'll get laughed off the next barstool because "everyone knows there no such thing as a woman pipelayer."

hehehe...hey...I have nothing against girl pipelayers...that would be an awesome job. I am not being sexually discriminatory...which is what you seem to be implying as well. If a guy is interested enough he will go after the woman and the real information about her profession will rise sooner or later. Since it's typically the guy pursuing the girl then it's the girls job to weed out all the men that don't meet up to her standards. (If the situations were reversed...I'd say the same) If a sense of humor is what she is looking for then she may try the outrageous profession tactic. His response may make or break a future relationship.


4. Now, oldscratch (I really DO like your name. Devil's advocate and all, eh?), you seem to think that strangers -- only by virtue of the fact that they are strangers -- are not entitled to be told the truth. (You wrote "They asked them, and the women lied. So what?!?") If this is REALLY how you feel, let's close this thread right now because we'll never agree.

Thanks Oldscratch... I definitely put you at the top of my, "Most Doper I'd like to meet and have a cup of coffee with" list.

I, however, feel, if there is no risk to myself or others, strangers are entitled to be told the truth -- whether asking me for the time, or directions, or even what I do for a living. (Under your "ask me no questions, I'll tell you no lies" policy you'd have no quams misdirecting a lost tourist down the wrong street, I suppose.)

Ok...there is definitely a fallacy in this one. Making up a profession and telling a stranger the wrong time or directions are completely different.


If I was uncomfortable with a stranger's question -- as jjj is entitled to feel when guys approached her -- I would not lie; I'd change the subject, or say it's none of their business. But that's not what jjj did; as I said before, she made sport out of their ignorance.

I am not uncomfortable with a stranger's questions. Body language and tone of voice can provide a lot of information. A girl knows if a guy is sincerely interested in her or if a guy just wants to get down her pants. I didn't make up professions for every single guy I met. With some of them, I just felt like joking around. Stuyguy...you don't seem to have much faith in a guy being able to tell the difference between fact and fiction.

5. As for the whole "hey, it's a bar -- anything goes, lies be damned" attitude... I personally find it repugnant (the attitude, not the bar!). Let's face it, bars (parties and clubs, too) are very major male-female interactivity spots. Dishonesty poisons the already-stressful relationship between the sexes. To make it excusable in the number one meeting venue can only make a bad situation worse.

The already-stressful relationship? Be young...have fun...live a little.


6. Lastly, a lot of the excuses being made on jjj's behalf concern the question of harm, and the degree of harm... namely, that the dupes were not insulted, or that they were not insulted very much. (Oldscratch seems to feel that even if they were, screw 'em -- it's their own fault. Oldscratch, there seems to be no hope for you, I'm afraid.)

Oldscratch is my hero.
I don't think there was a single guy that believed that I was a carnie or a mechanic. I could only come up with so much stuff...until I started to look like an idiot - which I didn't care!! It was great conversation.


I think all of you -- especially jjj -- should think long and hard about this before you conclude that no harm was done. Read this board. Read the original "rejection" thread. Read about how people feel when they found out that someone asked them out on a date on a dare -- THIRTY YEARS AGO. Or when someone called them ugly. Or fat. And not just by classmates, or coworkers, but by total strangers -- who they still remember because of one mean comment.

When you're through with those, read the thread by the terrified guy who wanted our advice about how to muster up the courage to ask a girl out. Then imagine that he gets up the courage -- and you're the girl, jjj.

NOW do you think it's harmless to fuck with his head?

Stuyguy...you are getting this issue confused with rejections. Telling a guy a false profession is not rejection. Telling a guy to "fuck off" is rejection. In no way did I ever intend to make a guy feel small by him believing I was a pipelayer. It was all in fun and completely obvious I didn't know shit about pipelaying.

I think the thing about this is that our perceptions are different. You are a guy with tender feelings and I am a girl who doesn't take things seriously. I know when to be serious and I know when to have fun.

clubs & bars = dancing and fun.



Reality IS my friend... that's what this thread is about.

"Reality" is that jjj is NOT a pipelayer. "Reality" is that she's someone who exploits someone else's trusting nature for sport.


Stuyguy... "Reality" is that people like to have fun.

origianally posted by Jack Batty
For Chrissake's man, you gotta develop a sense of humor or this world is just going to beat you silly.

Thanks Jack...couldn't have put it better myself.

Turpentine:..wow...you're a taxidermist. That's cool! :)

Maeglin: you said, "Fuck all of you who thought she was flirting." Yikes...How does not intending to meet anyone have anything to do with flirting? We {the girls} never approached the guys. We weren't going to the club with the intention of meeting guys. We went with the intention to dance and have fun. From prior experience, we knew that guys would come up and try to hit on us. Which, in this event, we came up with the profession thing. It was way nicer than blowing them off. We were never rude about anything we said to a guy. If in fact the guy did meet our standards and was fun to talk to then we continued an honest relationship.

Yojimbo: You said, "it was obvious it was a joke and they were not even that good at it." Hehehe...yeah...this sure is true. We were the worst! Thanks for taking up for me as well!

Milossarian: You said, "I agree stuyguy was harsh. But isn't it kind of cold and mean to have a laugh at a guy's expense because he makes the critical mistake of expressing interest in you."
We never laughed at the guy. We were merely amusing ourselves and when the guys caught along...we amused them.

Lunasea: That is awesome how you met your future husband at a bar. You are the first person that I know who actually has.

Thank you Spoofe, Silo, Lexicon, and Aenea

Xizor: That prostitute line is a funny one!

Mr. Cynical: I'll agree with you too! People perceive things differently. Doesn't mean they are necessarily right or wrong. People just have different interpretations about life.

[stuyguy]

jjj, it seems that you excuse everything you did (do?) in the name of fun.

"You are a guy with tender feelings and I am a girl who doesn't take things seriously. I know when to be serious and I know when to have fun."

But it was YOUR fun. Sure, you say it was EVERYBODY'S fun, but with people in this world who think that the very act of approaching a woman is cause for a bravery medal, I think you're presuming more than you're entitled to. And frankly I don't trust the sensibilities of a sixteen year-old "life-is-fun,-now-don't-bother-me-with-the-details" girl when she assures me that no one's emotions are being trampled on, especially given your dupes... sixteen to twenty year-old males, I presume. Hardly wizened men of the world with steady emotional compasses.

Look, we're probably never going to agree here. I still think that what you did is reprehensible. You lied for sport. In my book that puts you right behind schoolyard bullies and in front of people who cut lines.

(BTW, you gotta watch out for those people who cut lines. Every time I check my list they get a little higher. Hmm, wonder why that is.)

(See, I know how to have fun.)

[John Corrado]

aenea: Y'know, I was going to ask you about that the first time I met you, but I figured that either A) it was just glued/stuck on, and it'd come off as a stupid question or B) it actually *was* a strange new type of piercing, and I'd get to listen to a story involving needles and drill bits and fishhooks, which would have caused my skin to actually crawl off of my body, steal my car keys, slither out of the restaurant and lock itself in my car for the rest of the evening.

But in the vein of "that thing you did to me was horrible... let's do it to someone else!" I kindly suggest that the next time someone asks, inform them that you actually had a small socket drilled into your skull, and the jewel is the setpiece on a small screw. Tell them that if they look real close, they can see the crosshairs on the jewel where phillip's-head fits in.

[stuyguy]

John, do you know that people really DO what you're describing? That is, have holes and screw-sockets drilled into their living (duh...) skulls! I could not believe it until I saw a news report describing it. Yikes!

[aenea]

People ask me about that all the time, it's sure not a silly question. And I only bullshit the gullible ones. Why StuGuy might ask? Because it's fun, I think. If you actually took the time to look at it and think about it - there is no possible way I could have that particular piercing done.

Actually I have talked to several parents who love this idea for their kids as an alternative to piercing. "Try it this way for a while, and if you still really want it in 6 months, well maybe", or something like that.

[oldscratch]

First, stuyguy, your link linked back to this link (how many other times can I use the word link :rolleyes: ) link. Anyway, could you repost with the correct one. then I'll read it and comment on it.

Originally posted by stuyguy
jjj, it seems that you excuse everything you did (do?) in the name of fun.

Although there are some exceptions. Actions taken in the name of fun can more easily be excused. If players dump a bucket of gatorade over a coach for fun, it's ok. If they do it to be mean and cruel, it's not. Got it?


... but with people in this world who think that the very act of approaching a woman is cause for a bravery medal, I think you're presuming more than you're entitled to.

Let's see.
3 situations.
1. Aproach extremely attractive woman. She tells me to fuck off in condescending tone.
2. Aproach extremely attractive woman. She tells me. Sorry, not really interested.
3. Aproach extremely attractive woman. She actually talks to me and engagfes me, with fake story of how she's an actuary. If I have half a brain I figure out she's lying and continue chating with her, or not.

I (and the rest of humanity whose not hung up on a hatred of women in general) will choose numba 3.


As for my reality comment, what I meant by it is you are ignoring the reality of what happens in everyday life to lay your twisted ideas about women on jjjfishe and the rest of us.


and jjfishe. I'm utting this in my sig line. "Oldscratch is my hero. "

[stuyguy]

Damn, oldscratch you're right, you devil! I screwed up the link. Here it is:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=37156

I'll reply to the rest of your post in a sec. I wanted to get this up first.

If any moderator is reading this, I'd LOVE it if you could fix the link in my earlier post. Thanks.

[Engineer Don]

Stuyguy - you have got issues. Seriously, after reading this whole damn thread that is about all I can conclude.

Context here is everything. If you were in school, church, or at a family gathering, and you asked a person you were talking with their profession, you would expect and honest answer.

If you are at a club, and you approach a group of young people at a table (young enough to have a profession and be at a club, so I think the giggling 16 year old thing is out) then you expect them to play with you.

If the person doing the approaching is so fragile that they will be emotionally damaged by almost any reply other than: "I take your interest in me seriously and will issue a reply in due time", then they need to stay at the school, church, or family function where they are less likely to come to harm.

Getting to know people in informal settings like clubs and bars involves games. Since instantaneous mutual interest is an unlikely occurance, these games involve rejection and social embarassment. It always has. It always will. Get over it. Seriously, if the anger (appearant in your responses) is real to what I think most people consider fairly normal behaviour in the context presented, then you need either to avoid those situations (or seek professional help.)

[oldscratch]

You should know by now that I'm always right stuyguy.
So I read the thread. Maybe she wasn't an engineer, maybe she hated hockey and only told him cause she thought he was cute. At least she talked to him, which is what jjfishe and her friends did. (BTW, i feel really weird defending you and trying to put motivations for your actions here jjjfishe. If i say to much let me know) Nothing in that thread changes my opinion of jjjfishe or you. I also noticed some crude comments on breats in the thread. I noticed you didn't comment on them with the venom you commented on jjfishe's words. I also noticed that you didn't comment on the males who did similar things that jjfishe did in the original thread. Once again I state that you singled her out because she is female. You have not offered any proof otherwise. I'm forced to believe you a misogyinst of the worst sort. Frankly, you sicken me.

[stuyguy]

Oldscratch. Please stop trying to play the misogyinst card with me (and I hope you spelled the m-word right, cause I c&p'ed it from your post). I've explained the rationale of my value system, and though you're entitled to not agree with my logic, it is not misogyinstic -- and you know it. Open another thread about breasts, and maybe I'll abandon this one and move there. Meanwhile I've got my hands full w/this here.

Don, I agree that people play games in clubs and bars. My issue is that I don't like gameplayers because I think they are fundamentally cruel and arrogant. I also think it is hypocritical to behave one way in the workplace and another in a bar. I know that no one here agrees with me but that is my opinion, and as Mr. Cynical sez, I'm entitled to it.

Don, you say "...these games involve rejection and social embarassment. It always has. It always will." Sorry, but I hope you're wrong there. (As I get on my soapbox...) There has been a lot of unacceptable behavior that has been wiped out of society because people like me have flown in the face of convention to say "this is undignified and it should stop." Pinching waitresses, unequal pay for equal work, and telling ethnic jokes are three that come to mind that were once rationalized with the "always has, always will" argument. (Are they gone? No. But the tide of social conduct is flowing against them.) Sorry, but I think honest interpersonal social behavior in all situations is not too much to ask.

[oldscratch]

Originally posted by stuyguy
Oldscratch. Please stop trying to play the misogyinst card with me (and I hope you spelled the m-word right, cause I c&p'ed it from your post). I've explained the rationale of my value system, and though you're entitled to not agree with my logic, it is not misogyinstic -- and you know it.

Wow, yet another poster that can read my mind. Sure are a lot of you on this board. Go! Go now! A whole world needs use of your amazing powers! :rolleyes:

I wouldn't call you misogynistic if I didn't believe it. I'm not one to throw insults around lightly. I firmly believe that you have issues with women and I believe that your posts clearly show it. Most people who have responded to this thread agree with me. Where is my evidence? The fact that you would fly off the handle and personally insult a woman that way about doing those acts, at the same time you didn't comment on a mans post that admited to doing the same thing. I have no problem with you not liking what jjjfishe did. That's your opinion. It's the way that you expressed it that I have a problem with.

Also, I want to retract a statement. You do not sicken me. Your words at this momment do.

[stuyguy]

Oldscratch, I'll make you a deal... open a thread about YOUR BEHAVIOR and I promise to fly off the handle, okay? I'll call you worse than jjj if you like. And if you didn't have such a cool name I might actually mean it, too.

[PotLuck]

... I can relate to jjjfishe's actions. Saying "I'll call you" when you won't is a cruel lie. Giving out the local pizza place's number instead of saying, "No, you can't have my number" is a cruel lie. Telling a stranger that you tame lions for a living is a lark -- unless they want you to tame that lion that just creeped on to the dance floor.

When some total stranger in a bar asks my breasts what I do for a living, I respond, "Well, my boobs are on stand-by for eventual breastfeeding but the rest of me is a <insert occupation here>."

I told my current boyfriend I was independently wealthy becasue my Dad invented the Pet Rock. He earnestly pretended to believe me and asked if he could live off my inheritance. Thank God for men with a sense of humour.

[jjjfishe]

Hey stuyguy... did you know that I was a clinical psychologist. If you need someone to talk to... hey...I'm here for you buddy. :)

[SPOOFE]

Stuyguy, you were one of those kids that assumed people were having fun at your expense when they were laughing in school, huh?

Just because JJJ wound up chuckling, it doesn't mean it was at someone else's expense, dickhead.

And, finally, if any guy is going to take it as a personal insult if a girl isn't entirely open and honest the second he meets her (especially about something as mundane and harmless as her profession), that's a guy that probably has problems to begin with.

[Lexicon]

Okay, I just had to come back here and say that I was just kickin' around the sdpeoplepages, and I just saw jjj's pic.

I just have to ask:
How inna hell can any man in his right mind who is not gay possibly think that talking and laughing and flirting and shit with her in a bar would suck?
How is that even remotely fuckin' possible?

If I saw jjj in a bar, and she was looking approachable and all that (read: having a good time) I would walk up and say hi. Then she'd tell me she was a wrecking ball operator, and I'd say I was a dye calibrationist for a major sticker manufacturer called smiley-face.

Bickity-bam! We're hangin out and having a good time. What's wrong with that?

Oh yeah, I'd just like to add:
Pant, drool, AAAAA-aAAWHHHOOOOOOOOO!!! <wolf-whistle!>

[yojimbo]

There is obviously no way to tell you that while you do have a point about the way certain people treat other people it has nothing to do with the situation described .

You where out of order and that is that IMO . I and many other people have argued with you not because we are apologists but because you where out of line .


Please try to look at the situation as described and not with your obviously slanted viewpoint . You are seeing things that just aren't there .

At the end of the day you posted personal insults in a thread that wasn't looking for that kind of bullshit and you where called on it .

I only like banging my head against a wall for so long so I'm going to stop now .


p.s. Good call Lexicon ;)
Hey jjj don't suppose you're holidaying in Ireland soon are you ? We hold great Dopefest over here ;)

[yosemite]

I have been lurking on this thread for a while, and I have to admit, on some level, I do understand where stuyguy is coming from.

I think there have been scenarios where young women come into clubs, knowing that they're cute, knowing that guys will hit on them, and these young women just enjoy messing with these guys. At the guys' expense. I totally see that scenario, and I am with stuyguy in being appalled by it.

However, after much discussion here, I just don't see jjj's behavior as fitting that scenario. I can see how it might have been mistaken for that at first, but not after all this elaboration, and discussion. For one thing, she was so young. Too young to be seriously be considered a pipelayer, or whatever. Another thing, if we are to believe her (and I do) she was too light-hearted and giggly about her pretense - and she did TALK to the guys, not snotty, not icy, she "bullshitted" (that's what I call it) with them. Hey, I have bullshitted with guys myself, and I know I'm not trying to be cruel to them. (And trust me, I am not some "cute young thing" who enjoys messing with guys' emotions.) Bullshitting with people is fun, harmless, and yeah, they DO know you are doing it. If they are up to speed, they bullshit right back. And it could be the start of a beautiful relationship.

With all due respect, stuyguy, I actually do know where you are coming from. But I think in this specific instance, you are barking up the wrong tree.

[DRY]

While everyone's entitled to their opinions, I think the criticism that's been leveled against jjjfishe is WAY, WAY out of proportion.

I'm not going to say that what she did wasn't wrong on some extremely moralistic and idealistic level. And she herself admits that her actions were "a little cruel". Even if the lie is relatively harmless, sure, it's still a lie, and not exactly the most mature thing to do.

But let's have a little perspective here! She's already said that she's grown up since then and learned the error of her ways.

I think the situation can be summed up pretty succinctly by excerpting two things that she's said:

Originally posted by jjjfishe
[QUOTE]
I was sixteen at the time I said those things...yes...sixteen.


We were never rude about anything we said to a guy. If in fact the guy did meet our standards and was fun to talk to then we continued an honest relationship.


She was 16 years old! And not rude to the guys at all? I don't see this as a major transgression--no more so than cutting class. Yes, it's on *some level* dishonest--but it's as dishonest as saying your dog ate your homework. :rolleyes:

How many people here weren't guilty of doing something equally as "heinous" or worse, at the ripe old age of sixteen? Again, she wasn't 100% honest with the people she was socializing with--but she was hardly laughing at them or mocking them and she specifically says she wasn't rude to them.

Sheesh--without wishing to sound arrogant, I was considered a pretty good kid (though I was certainly no angel). But when I was 16, I did things at least as immature and selfish on a weekly basis. Stuyguy himself likens her behavior to someone who cuts lines. Cuts lines at 16 years old? Most parents would be RELIEVED to find out that this is the type of stunt that their 16 year olds pulled!

Jessica, posting to the pit is not normally my style. (I don't particularly enjoy the flaming aspect and tend only to post to relatively "calm" pit topics) I had intended to e-mail you privately and give you my opinion that your transgressions were hardly the stuff that mortal sins were made of, but you don't have an e-mail address listed, and I did feel, as someone friendly to you, that I should say something in your support: Again, a 16 year old flirting and telling white lies which (I feel) are not designed to hurt or embarrass anyone? Very, very mild on the cruelty scale, not particularly mature, but not nearly anything deserving of the vituperativeness of some of the commentary.
And the important thing is, you've learned the error of your ways.

For whatever it's worth, I've always liked you, and nothing in this thread or the other changes my opinion of you. And not to hijack the thread, but I AM one of these people that's been taken advantage of, at times badly, by a "lady" or two. I would NOT be your friend if I thought you were a manipulative bitch, to say the least, no matter how attractive your people pages picture (alliterative, huh?) is.

[jjjfishe]

Originally posted by DRY


For whatever it's worth, I've always liked you, and nothing in this thread or the other changes my opinion of you. And not to hijack the thread, but I AM one of these people that's been taken advantage of, at times badly, by a "lady" or two. I would NOT be your friend if I thought you were a manipulative bitch, to say the least, no matter how attractive your people pages picture (alliterative, huh?) is.



DRY... you amaze me.
yeah...the Pit is sort of uncharted waters for me. I'm not used to being in here. These flames sure do get hot. Thanks for everything you said, especially the "I would NOT be your friend if I thought you were a manipulative bitch, to say the least, no matter how attractive your people pages picture is" part. There is more to me than a pretty face...and thank you for realizing it! I put you on top of my "most guy I'd like to meet and treat to dinner and a beer with" list.

[Silo]

Originally posted by jjjfishe

quote:
I was sixteen at the time I said those things...yes...sixteen.

You'd never believe the things I did when I was 16. I guess according to stuyguy I would be a very, very, horrible person [shudder]. I think stuyguy doesn't realize that over time people change. Some do quite dramatically so.


And stuyguy, I hope to see you in the pit more often :rolleyes:

Hey I just realized jjjfishe's post is "on top of" mine. :)

[SPOOFE]

"My bum is on the Silo, my bum is on the Silo..."

[stuyguy]

It's a new day, and I've had a chance to clear my thoughts a bit.

I have little to add to my previous posts, and I have no desire to answer all the namecalling that's been levelled at me throughout this thread. Furthermore, I accept the fact that I'm part of a very, very small minority here.

A thought did occur to me last night that I do want to throw out there before I move on to less hostile fora. It is not a criticism; it is more like an observation, or a theory.

I wondered WHY this practice of inventing phony jobs was so common and so ferociously defended or condoned.
(Yes, I confess, I was startled by the number of posters who felt this way.) I felt that the explanation "to start a good, fun conversation" had a hollow ring to it; it sounded like a half-truth at best.

Then it occurred to me. (Some of the posters hinted at it, but I was so concerned about the gullible guys that I did not pick up on it.) I think -- mind you, it's only my theory -- that people make up wild jobs because they're ashamed to admit their real jobs. By which I mean ordinary real jobs. Let's face it, how many MTV VJ's or computer game designers do you think lie about what they do? Very few, I imagine.

I think a lot of people think their job is boring and ordinary, and strangers will think that they're boring and ordinary too. Telling somebody a wild, improbable answer that derails the topic is the way they spare themselves from having to say "I'm just a fill-in-the-blank."

If that's true, I think that's a shame. I think that holding ANY honest job -- or even no job -- is nothing to be embarassed about. My parents taught me that there is dignity in all work and that some pretty extraordinary people have pretty ordinary jobs.

I think that today's society mocks ordinariness. And this trend is eroding our humanity and our values, especially in schools where, yes, sixteen year-olds -- and even younger kids -- blindly buy into it.

This is probably the "reality" that oldscratch wanted me to meet. Well I guess I've met it, os. But that still doesn't mean I like it, or accept it, or condone the actions of people who wink at it.

[pepperlandgirl]

*shakes her head*
Stuyguy, you positvely amaze me.
I was going to list all the reasons why, but in order to save room and time, I'm not going to quote all of your posts.
I wasn't even going to say anything here until the last thing you said. I mean, wow. I thought we were here to fight ignorance, but you are more than happy to advertise your own special brand.
Ok, maybe since no one else is getting through to you, I'll try it again.
jjfishe, oldscratch, you, me, or anybody else owes exactly JACK SHIT to ANY stranger they meet in a bar. It has nothing to do with who or what they do or do not respect. Do you understand that? The women who turn you down on a weekly basis does not OWE you anything. The rest of the woman-kind doesn't owe you ANYTHING because you are shot down at bars. And leveling your sexual frustrations at a girl on a MB, a girl you will never meet, a girl who never turned YOU down, is not appropriate.

[JTR]

Hey Stuyguy! What are you doing--auditioning for the position of Ayatollah of Iran?

Let's say you start up a conversation with a sour chick in the corner of a club, and she starts telling you how all men suck. What do you conclude about her--that she’s a sick bigot? Or maybe you assume instead that her boyfriend dumped her, and she needs a little time to get over it?

You start up a conversation with a hot-looking chick at the bar, and she mentions that you’re a goodlooking guy. What do you conclude--that she’s an oversexed, vile whore? Or maybe that it’s nice to hear a compliment from a good-looking babe?

You start up a conversation with a crowd of giddy, laughing 16-year-olds nursing cokes at a table, and you can’t get a straight answer from any of them. What do you conclude--that they’re cruel, mind-fucking idiot liars? Or maybe that there’s no harm in being young and silly, because adulthood and disillusionment come all too soon?

Clubs tend to be a place for people to let down their hair a bit and you'll run into all kinds of different behaviors that can either be construed as a crime against humanity or simply as harmless and human. How you construe their behavior says more about you than it does about them.

My advice to you: Take people as they come and give them the benefit of the doubt. If you don’t like their company, move on and find company more suitable to your own current mood and values. You’re going to be a lonely, bitter fellow all your life if you’re going to run around insulting and pointing your finger at everyone who doesn’t live life according to your individual values and expectations.

[yojimbo]

JTR that was a great post .

[yosemite]

stuyguy:

I give up. You are clueless. Purposely so.