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Stephe96
09-10-2000, 04:54 PM
OK. This just might be stretching the boundaries of 'mundane' and 'pointless' to the breaking point, but has anyone else beside me noticed the striking similarities between 'Misunderstanding' by Genesis and 'Fool In The Rain' by Led Zeppelin?

Consider the (almost) identical chord progressions in both songs. Hum the opening bars of 'Misunderstanding' at a little faster speed and see what I mean. Sure, 'Fool In The Rain' has an extra beat or two, but the chords are almost exactly the same.

Also, both songs are about the same subject: a guy waiting around for a girl after he's been stood up. The Genesis tune even has a line ("...waiting in the rain for hours...") that almost seems like a tip of the hat to the Zeppelin song.

Has anyone from Genesis ever gone on record as stating that their song was, if not a remake, than at least an homage to the earlier Zeppelin classic?

Not that it's keeping me up at night, but......
Stephen

BigRoryG
09-10-2000, 06:39 PM
I'm afraid I don't quite agree.

Fool in the Rain is one of my favourite songs of all time, and I've just downloaded this "Misunderstanding" of yours, and it doesn't bear much of a resemblance.

I'm afraid I must disagree.

Road Rash
09-10-2000, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by Stephe96
OK.

Has anyone from Genesis ever gone on record as stating that their song was, if not a remake, than at least an homage to the earlier Zeppelin classic?

Not that it's keeping me up at night, but......
Stephen

You have it backward. Fool in the Rain came out in 1979, on the In Through The Out Door. Genesis's "Misunderstanding" came out in 1977 or 78.

Stephe96
09-10-2000, 10:36 PM
COOLDUDE,

Thanks for pointing out when the songs came out. I never bothered to check....I just assumed that 'Misunderstanding' was an 80s song.

BIGRORY,

I'm not implying that they're the SAME song by any means....just that the chord progression is almost identical (check out the sheet music for each song), and that the two share a similar theme. I thought that maybe one was 'borrowing' from the other.

Vic333
02-16-2013, 11:14 AM
Yes, you are correct, the two musical motif's are very similar. In fact, they are the same chords. They are both simple ascending progressions. The Zep tune goes C, Dm, Em, F, Am, G. The Genesis tune uses the same chords, except it starts on the Dm, omitting the C, giving it a five interval pattern, rather than a six, and thereby a different feel.

The Genesis tune also uses a very different drum pattern, almost a shuffle, giving it a bit of a Toto feel to it.

Fool was released in '79, Misunderstanding in '80. Misunderstanding was, however, recorded in '79. Genesis most likely took longer recording their album, as Zeppelin is known to work very quickly, while Genesis is known for spending time on a record, perfecting each section.

So, it is possible the one borrowed from the other, though it could go either way. Robert Plant and Phil Collins where chums (Phil played drums on Plants first two solo albums after Zeppelin folded a year later) so they may have even bounced ideas off of each other, then one subconsciously used it in a jam session with their band. I would be included to believe that Collins came up with the motif and lyrics, since they are very similar to other stuff he was writing at the time and the lyrics do reflect the relationship problems he was having. Going off of things the other Genesis members said at the time, Phil had just started writing songs and was playing his demos for people to get their opinions on his first compositions.

engineer_comp_geek
02-16-2013, 12:08 PM
You are replying to a thread that is more than 12 years old. We call old threads like this that were brought back to life zombies, so expect a lot of braaaiiinnsss type jokes.

pulykamell
02-16-2013, 12:47 PM
The Genesis tune also uses a very different drum pattern, almost a shuffle, giving it a bit of a Toto feel to it.

They're actually both shuffles. The drum pattern in "Fool in the Rain," in fact, is often called "the Bonham Shuffle."

Despite it being a zombie thread, I do find this pretty interesting. I never made the connection between the two songs, but now I'll never be able to hear "Misunderstanding" without thinking of "Fool in the Rain." They are, indeed, quite similar in certain ways.

Stephe96
02-16-2013, 12:56 PM
I knew I'd be vindicated if I waited long enough!

pulykamell
02-16-2013, 12:59 PM
I should clarify one thing: both drum patters are shuffles, but "Fool in the Rain" is a half-time shuffle (snare on 3), and "Misunderstanding" is a regular shuffle with snare on 2 & 4.

Biffy the Elephant Shrew
02-16-2013, 01:03 PM
The rhythm and bass line of "Misunderstanding" were actually nicked from Sly & the Family Stone's "Hot Fun in the Summertime."

Stephe96
02-16-2013, 01:08 PM
The rhythm and bass line of "Misunderstanding" were actually nicked from Sly & the Family Stone's "Hot Fun in the Summertime."

Wow. Never noticed that before but it's very similar.

pulykamell
02-16-2013, 02:21 PM
The rhythm and bass line of "Misunderstanding" were actually nicked from Sly & the Family Stone's "Hot Fun in the Summertime."

I don't really hear it, myself...oh, wait, I hear it now. About 30 seconds into the song. Hell, you could say "Fool in the Rain" nicked that, too (although "Misunderstanding" is more of a direct quote.) Interesting connection between the three songs.

Rhiannon8404
02-16-2013, 05:51 PM
Also, both songs are about the same subject: a guy waiting around for a girl after he's been stood up. The Genesis tune even has a line ("...waiting in the rain for hours...") that almost seems like a tip of the hat to the Zeppelin song.


Realize this is a zombie, but feel the need to correct this. The guy in Fool in the Rain hasn't been stood up. He's been waiting in the wrong place.

Final verse:

I'll run in the rain till I'm breathless
When I'm breathless I'll run till I drop, hey
The thoughts of a fool's kind of careless
I'm just a fool waiting on the wrong block, oh yeah
Light of the love that I found...

Fool in the Rain is my favorite Led Zepplin song. My son and I were discussing it the other and he pointed out this would never happen today since, he would just call her and say, "Hey...I'm here. Where are you?" and she would say, "You idiot, I said meet on 5th not 6th." Or something to that effect.

canaryinacoalmine
02-13-2016, 12:09 AM
the zombie sighs heavily, not again...
So, it's 2016 now, and here I am. Driving down the Expressway in Sunnyvale, CA on my way to work, 45 minutes into my commute jammin' with the radio, I'm suddenly struck by the oddly obvious similarity "Misunderstanding" has with "Fool in the Rain"... Stunned, I text my brother, and my sister at the red light the news alert: "Morning commute revelation... Genesis song "misunderstanding" is a complete ripoff of Led Zeppelin "fool in the rain"
"Huh- really... I'll have to go check that out" from my brother
"Apparently sussudio is a ripoff from Prince" from my sister
They were not helpful in corroborating the Misunderstanding at all, so I googled and whabam, there's your thread with all questions and answers. thank you thank you for bantering, one and all.
found my tribe.
Stephen: vindication? Yes.

WordMan
02-13-2016, 06:54 AM
They're actually both shuffles. The drum pattern in "Fool in the Rain," in fact, is often called "the Bonham Shuffle."

Despite it being a zombie thread, I do find this pretty interesting. I never made the connection between the two songs, but now I'll never be able to hear "Misunderstanding" without thinking of "Fool in the Rain." They are, indeed, quite similar in certain ways.

I will keep the zombie alive. pulykamell you and I have discussed the Purdie Shuffle a few times on this board, with FitR being a wonderful example of it. I hadn't realized folks referred to this as the Bonham Shuffle. It's him doing Purdie, and doing a truly amazing job of it. Bonham - man he was technical when he grooved.

Edited to add: oh, and welcome to the Straight Dope, canary - yes, there are a few music geeks here...

Maserschmidt
02-13-2016, 07:14 AM
This is one of those comparisons that when I read it, I think "oh, nonsense." And then when I go listen to the songs, I think "holy crap!" Now I cannot unhear the similarity and I wonder how I ever missed it.

My default assumption in any situation like this would be that Led Zeppelin is the thief, but I don't know if the timing works out for this song.

pulykamell
02-13-2016, 08:45 AM
I will keep the zombie alive. pulykamell you and I have discussed the Purdie Shuffle a few times on this board, with FitR being a wonderful example of it. I hadn't realized folks referred to this as the Bonham Shuffle. It's him doing Purdie, and doing a truly amazing job of it. Bonham - man he was technical when he grooved.

Edited to add: oh, and welcome to the Straight Dope, canary - yes, there are a few music geeks here...

Yep, Bonham's version of the half-time shuffle is sometimes/often called (at least in my circles) the Bonham shuffle, just like Jeff Porcaro's spin on it in "Rosanna" is named either after him or the song title. They're all variants of the basic half-time shuffle aka Purdie shuffle. Porcaro for instance, takes the Purdue shuffle and throws a Bo Diddley accent pattern in the kick drum. If you watch the video here (http://youtu.be/pwyO1qr0edI), at about 40 seconds he starts showing how he took Purdie, Bonhan, and Diddley and mashed them up to get his Rosanna shuffle.

pulykamell
02-13-2016, 09:22 AM
This is one of those comparisons that when I read it, I think "oh, nonsense." And then when I go listen to the songs, I think "holy crap!" Now I cannot unhear the similarity and I wonder how I ever missed it.

My default assumption in any situation like this would be that Led Zeppelin is the thief, but I don't know if the timing works out for this song.

My assumption would be just coincidence. The "Fool in the Rain" progression is just a series of triads going up the major scale from I-ii-iii-IV. No big deal there, common enough. Then instead of going straight to the V to get back to the I, it goes vi-V, which seems like a normal and logical enough way to keep the line from being a completely static series of ascending chords. (I mean, listen to the piano on "Lean on Me." It's I-ii-iii-IV, and a little bVII-IV flourish--similar type of movement to "Fool in the Rain.")
To me, it feels like a cross between a I-IV-vi-V progression (think the chorus of "She Drives me Crazy.") with the scale ascending triads thrown in between the I and IV.

The Genesis song is slightly different, although similar ideas involved, in that it is in a minor key, so the progression is i-ii-III-v-IV in that case instead of I-ii-iii-IV-vi-V. Same type of movement, missing a note and with different harmonic contexts.

Harmonic analysis aside, like I said above, whenever I hear "Misunderstanding" now, I can't help but think "Fool in the Rain." But I think it's very likely coincidence they share those similarities or, even if one were subconsciously influenced by the other, the musical ideas there are so basic that I wouldn't call it a ripoff either way.

WordMan
02-13-2016, 10:19 AM
Yep, Bonham's version of the half-time shuffle is sometimes/often called (at least in my circles) the Bonham shuffle, just like Jeff Porcaro's spin on it in "Rosanna" is named either after him or the song title. They're all variants of the basic half-time shuffle aka Purdie shuffle. Porcaro for instance, takes the Purdue shuffle and throws a Bo Diddley accent pattern in the kick drum. If you watch the video here (http://youtu.be/pwyO1qr0edI), at about 40 seconds he starts showing how he took Purdie, Bonhan, and Diddley and mashed them up to get his Rosanna shuffle.

Fascinating video. I rarely watch drum instruction videos. Porcaro is obviously an amazing drummer and hearing him build the groove is fun. I would never have picked out the Bo Diddley kick drum.

But - man is he kinda flat in his delivery. Also, I woudl argue that the bit he plays to represent Bernard Purdie sells Purdie a bit short.

Look at Purdie himself: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oOWdp1sOxvA

First of all, what a charming instructor! And he builds the pieces of the groove in a clear way, so I, a non-drummer could follow. Then around 3:50 he starts to play the Purdie Shuffle and it grooves so much more....Purdie-like vs. Porcaro's groove. Fun to hear the differences.

pulykamell
02-13-2016, 11:04 AM
Fascinating video. I rarely watch drum instruction videos. Porcaro is obviously an amazing drummer and hearing him build the groove is fun. I would never have picked out the Bo Diddley kick drum.

But - man is he kinda flat in his delivery. Also, I woudl argue that the bit he plays to represent Bernard Purdie sells Purdie a bit short.

Look at Purdie himself: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oOWdp1sOxvA

First of all, what a charming instructor! And he builds the pieces of the groove in a clear way, so I, a non-drummer could follow. Then around 3:50 he starts to play the Purdie Shuffle and it grooves so much more....Purdie-like vs. Porcaro's groove. Fun to hear the differences.

Yeah, Purdie's a fun guy to watch and oozes groove and soul and personality (I've watched pretty much all the videos I can of his playing on Youtube.) Porcaro is more, well, he makes it swing in his own way, but it's different. I wouldn't call it mechanical--I think it has great groove--but it's almost too perfect and clean. It's exactly the kind of groove you might expect for a polished, soft rock, fusionish band of session musicians like Toto. And then you've got Bonham's powerful bombastic bluesy swagger of a groove.

WordMan
02-13-2016, 11:56 AM
Yeah, Purdie's a fun guy to watch and oozes groove and soul and personality (I've watched pretty much all the videos I can of his playing on Youtube.) Porcaro is more, well, he makes it swing in his own way, but it's different. I wouldn't call it mechanical--I think it has great groove--but it's almost too perfect and clean. It's exactly the kind of groove you might expect for a polished, soft rock, fusionish band of session musicians like Toto. And then you've got Bonham's powerful bombastic bluesy swagger of a groove.

Bonzo's high hat sounds like a fookin' viper strike. He does everything with so much snap in his wrist. He's the Barry Bonds or Bruce Lee of drummers - unleashes full force instantly through superfast execution of proper mechanics.

pulykamell
08-25-2017, 04:36 PM
This is one of those comparisons that when I read it, I think "oh, nonsense." And then when I go listen to the songs, I think "holy crap!" Now I cannot unhear the similarity and I wonder how I ever missed it.

My default assumption in any situation like this would be that Led Zeppelin is the thief, but I don't know if the timing works out for this song.

An old thread, but only today did I just realize, while listening to the radio, where the "Misunderstanding" riff came from. Sly and the Family Stone's Hot Fun in the Summertime (https://youtu.be/9hCRgsAQxqI?t=51). Wait a few seconds for the bass riff to reappear and repeat. And, sure enough, in the Wikipedia article about "Misunderstanding" it states this was one of the songs Phil Collins was inspired by.

igor frankensteen
08-25-2017, 04:51 PM
Isn't there another Zepplin song that was in the news recently for being a rip of a Spirit song?

Stephe96
08-25-2017, 04:53 PM
Realize this is a zombie, but feel the need to correct this. The guy in Fool in the Rain hasn't been stood up. He's been waiting in the wrong place.

Final verse:

I'll run in the rain till I'm breathless
When I'm breathless I'll run till I drop, hey
The thoughts of a fool's kind of careless
I'm just a fool waiting on the wrong block, oh yeah
Light of the love that I found...

Fool in the Rain is my favorite Led Zepplin song. My son and I were discussing it the other and he pointed out this would never happen today since, he would just call her and say, "Hey...I'm here. Where are you?" and she would say, "You idiot, I said meet on 5th not 6th." Or something to that effect.

(Since this thread has been revived)

So you're saying it was a...misunderstanding?

pulykamell
08-25-2017, 05:15 PM
Isn't there another Zepplin song that was in the news recently for being a rip of a Spirit song?

You mean "Stairway"? That's a bit of an old story, but was in the news again maybe a year ago. The court found in favor of Zeppelin, as I think in that case they should have. But, yes, in case you don't know, Zep has plenty of songs that were not properly credited when they were released. They are kind of known for this.

pulykamell
08-25-2017, 05:18 PM
An old thread, but only today did I just realize, while listening to the radio, where the "Misunderstanding" riff came from. Sly and the Family Stone's Hot Fun in the Summertime (https://youtu.be/9hCRgsAQxqI?t=51). Wait a few seconds for the bass riff to reappear and repeat. And, sure enough, in the Wikipedia article about "Misunderstanding" it states this was one of the songs Phil Collins was inspired by.

:smack:

This was mentioned back in 2013 I just noticed. I even acknowledged it! Doper thread amnesia strikes again!

:smack::smack::smack::smack::smack::smack:

Daddypants
08-25-2017, 06:59 PM
Now go compare and contrast Trampled Under Foot with the Doobie Brothers' Long Train Running.

Sent from my SPH-L720T using Tapatalk

astorian
08-25-2017, 09:00 PM
The songs don't sound similar to me at all, but obviously the lyrical plot in both songs is almost the same: boy waits in the rain for a girl who doesn't show. But Phil Collins discovers the girl was with another guy, while Plant realizes too late that he got the meeting place wrong!

Goofy ending for Zeppelin, sad ending for Genesis.

WordMan
08-26-2017, 05:44 AM
Now go compare and contrast Trampled Under Foot with the Doobie Brothers' Long Train Running.

Not a lot to compare, to my ear. A chuggy groove and a standard set of blues changes, but not much more. There's no funk in LTR, while TUF is all about funk.

JKellyMap
08-26-2017, 06:27 AM
I remember noticing the Doobie Brothers - Zep connection back in eighth grade. Besides the basic funk* groove (melody and rhythm), there's the "Talkin' 'bout love" repeated lyric in each. Not the same song, but noticeably similar.

*I agree that the Doobies don't actually pull off the funk.

JKellyMap
08-26-2017, 06:44 AM
Correction: The Doobies' repeated lyric is "without love." Still quite similar -- both songs are about operating a vehicle (car or train), with a brief refrain to remind us what the song's REALLY about.

WordMan
08-26-2017, 06:55 AM
I remember noticing the Doobie Brothers - Zep connection back in eighth grade. Besides the basic funk* groove (melody and rhythm), there's the "Talkin' 'bout love" repeated lyric in each. Not the same song, but noticeably similar.

*I agree that the Doobies don't actually pull off the funk.

It's cool; they aren't trying to pull off the funk. The LTR groove is a strummy acoustic groove played up the neck, with a drone string going to keep that chug going. The drums behind are a simple rock beat, ISTR. TUF has an organ and guitar, each keeping the G note chugging through the groove, but with Bonzo funking out with John Paul Jones the entire time.

It's the use of a drone tone that makes them sound similar. I hear you about the Lyrics and such, too.

JKellyMap
08-26-2017, 09:52 AM
:)

Reddy Mercury
08-26-2017, 10:46 AM
This is one of those comparisons that when I read it, I think "oh, nonsense." And then when I go listen to the songs, I think "holy crap!" Now I cannot unhear the similarity and I wonder how I ever missed it.

My default assumption in any situation like this would be that Led Zeppelin is the thief, but I don't know if the timing works out for this song.

Fool in the Rain:
Recorded November–December 1978, released August 1979

Misunderstanding:
Recorded November 1979, released March 1980

shunpiker
08-26-2017, 11:04 AM
They both ripped-off these guys :p
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okLj1nfGG0s
(Hall and Oates, "When the Morning Comes")

Stephe96
08-26-2017, 12:06 PM
Fool in the Rain:
Recorded November–December 1978, released August 1979

Misunderstanding:
Recorded November 1979, released March 1980

Someone said above that Plant and Collins were friends. I wonder if someone said to them, "Each of you guys go write a song with this basic riff about a guy who gets stood up by a girl." These two songs would be the result! (Total speculation, of course)

Dale Sams
08-26-2017, 03:05 PM
Probably irrelevant But Misunderstanding sounds like a solo Collins song that didn't make the cut on whatever prior album he did. I'm pretty sure that's absolutely true of "Please Don't Ask"

Art Rock
08-26-2017, 03:08 PM
Probably irrelevant But Misunderstanding sounds like a solo Collins song that didn't make the cut on whatever prior album he did. I'm pretty sure that's absolutely true of "Please Don't Ask"

His first solo album was in 1981. But style-wise, yes, it could have gone on one of his solo albums.