why do people steal?

[curwin]

Why are some groups of people in society more likely to steal? I have seen this in several countries. Is it only a question of need for money? In almost every national, religious or cultural group there are certain things that are considered completely unacceptable - child sacrifice for example. So is stealing not considered unethical by these groups?

I'll give an example, but it is just an example. Where I live, in Israel, there is a very serious problem of theft by Palestinians, particularly car theft. Now I know that on average Palestinians aren't as well off as Israelis, and there isn't much love lost between Israelis and Palestinians. But does the Arab/Palestinian/Muslim culture really justify stealing? In some Arab countries they cut off your hand for stealing. So what leads the thief, wherever, to say "I'm poor, I'm angry, and I don't care if it is morally/ethically/religiously wrong?". And remember, many thieves aren't poor - sometimes crime does pay.

[CnoteChris]

It doesn't seem too complicated to me. The person sees something they like and take it. A 'ballsee move, but I can understand it. Doesn't make me feel better after I've been ripped off, however.

Not trying to hijack your thread, but I've always wondered, you say you live in Israel, being a persecuted group of people, how do you justify treating Palestinians the way that you do?

[sailor]

I think the most determining factor is your upbringing and education. Even if you are very poor, if you saw your family had certain ethics, you would most probably feel bad about stealing. On the other hand, if your family believes it is OK to steal because life is unfair anyway, then you would think stealing is OHere in the USA I am willing to bet that most criminals have one thing in common which is a bad family upbringing.

I do not think need comes even close to being a factor. There have been times in history when people were *much* poorer than today and yet they stole less, not more.

[wring]

oh good, a question where I have lots of knowledge/experience.

I work with convicts.

Why do people steal?

1. Some out of a percieved necessity (I am hungry, have no money, will steal bread/whatever to eat, feed my kids). Of course, this gets broadened out quite a bit to "I don't have the money for those lovely shoes that would be just 'to die for' with my blue suit".

2. MANY steal out of a need to feed a drug habit.

3. Some steal out of a need for risk behaviors. same sort of rush as a roller coaster, or so I've heard.

4. Some people will steal out of a compulsive psychological disorder. this is much rarer than my convicts thought.

5. Some people will steal out of a sense of trying to harm some one specifically.

6. Some will steal as a joke (woulnd't it be funny to take the lawn ornament from Mrs. Slege's lawn and send her pictures of it on vacation?)

I may have missed some, but believe I've covered most.

[bup]

>>many thieves aren't poor

IMO, by and large, they are. They're poor and desperate.

In the United States, a consistently falling crime rate
has parallelled the longest economic expansion ever.

Of course, I can't prove the causality, and there's a lot
of complicate stuff in there, but I think most crime is
caused by people in desperate situations.

Other evidence: the areas in the US with the worst crime
rates are the poorest.

[BobT]

I've traveled to many countries where people never think of stealing. Japan is one that comes to mind. There is theft there, but usually isn't of the type that we in the US think of (like stealing cars, burglary, or armed robbery).

I was robbed at gunpoint twice when my father owned a small store. I am also positive that the first guy was on drugs. He looked in real bad shape and I wouldn't be surprised to find out that he's dead now.

The second guy was a bit more organized and looked to be with it more.

I'm sure that both men put their $50 that they took to good use. I doubt it ended up in a 401(k).

[MinkMan]

Here's my theory on this, from an economic point of view. People make the decision to steal something when they feel that the value of possessing the stolen object is greater than the cost to them of the consequences (jail time, fines, feelings of guilt, etc.) times the probability of getting caught, and is less than the cost they would have to pay to legitimately obtain the item. (Note I'm referring to opportunity cost here, not necessarily dollars and cents.) The would-be thief consciously or unconsciously does the mental calculus necessary to make the comparison and decides that stealing is worth it.

Each of these factors is colored by the person’s particular worldview. For instance, to a drug addict, the value of the watch he can steal and pawn for his next hit, is greater than it is to the average person. A master art thief may think that the odds of him getting caught are low enough to make the risk worth it, and for the desperately poor, the cost of jail might not be much worse than the life they are living anyway.

[Keeve]

I clearly remember watching the news on tv, the night after the New York City blackout of summer 1977. The cameraman caught a shot of a guy walking down the block, carrying a color tv (must have been at least a 25-incher) that he had clearly lifted from a store window just seconds earlier. The guy explained to the reporter that (these are his exact words): "God sent us this blackout so we can feed our families!"

Make of it what you will...

[bup]

People will do things they never thought in
mass, anonymous situations...

[TampaFlyer]

> Of course, I can't prove the causality, and there's a lot
of complicate stuff in there, but I think most crime is
caused by people in desperate situations.

Then how do you explain that most people didn't resort to stealing during the Great Depression, when the economy was much worse than now?

[sailor]

Well, I guess people steal because they want to have the stuff just like they rape because it feels good.

I good family upbringing will instill values about ethics and about not harming others which will prevent this type of behavior.

Yes some people are poor. Yet some choose to be honest, work hard and do their best while others choose to break the law.

the ironic part is that those who take the "easy" way of breaking the law will never make it out of poverty in generations while those that choose to work and give their children morals and ethics and a good education, very often in one or two generations make it to a very comfortable middle class or higher.

[bouv]

time for the truth people. I have heard some very intersting theories on why people steal, and I feel it's my obligation to tell you the real reason most people steal.
Granted, some steal by neccesity (poor), some steal due to a disorder, but most do it because they WANT to.
"Hey nice TV, I think I'll take it."
That simple. They see something they want, they take it and don't pay. As someone who occasionally commits a crime or two I can atest to the truth of that statement.
That's it. Simple.

[Crafter_Man]

Originally posted by bouv
time for the truth people. I have heard some very intersting theories on why people steal, and I feel it's my obligation to tell you the real reason most people steal.
Granted, some steal by neccesity (poor), some steal due to a disorder, but most do it because they WANT to.
"Hey nice TV, I think I'll take it."
That simple. They see something they want, they take it and don't pay. As someone who occasionally commits a crime or two I can atest to the truth of that statement.
That's it. Simple.


I agree that people read way too much into the "stealing" thing.

But my theory is even more basic that your theory: Some people steal for the same reasons some people lie, rape, murder, etc., i.e. they're bad. Yep, there are bad people in this world --always have been, always will be. So what else is new?

[sdimbert]

I just think it is interesting in discussions like this to look at how much humanity is revealed in its literature.

From the first scene of Les Miserables:

Javert: You are a thief!
Valjean: I broke a windowpane. My sister's child was close to death, and we were starving -
Javert: You will starve again, unless you learn the meaning of the law.
Valjean: I know the meaning of those 19 years [in jail]... a slave of the law.


In this first scene, Valjean is introduced as the hero. It's remarkable to me how quickly we, the audience, accept that he is a good man despite being forced to commit a crime. We forgive his crime immediately!

To come back to this discussion, this is the first reason wring provided - people steal because they need something they would not otherwise have.

See how quickly we forgive?

[Bricker]

It's worthwhile to point out that Valjean's nineteen-year sentence was not for stealing. The loaf of bread got him five years; the remainder was tacked on because of his multiple escape attempts.

Moreover, even after his release, he is not "rehabilitated." After being shunned by people that learn of his status as a parollee, he steals a coin from a child. He's then taken in by the Bishop of Digné, and given food and shelter. Valjean repays this kindness by stealing the Bishop's fine silverware and running away.

It's only when he's captured and returned to the Bishop that night that his transformation occurs. The Bishop denies that Valjean stole the silverware. He explains that he gave Valjean the silverware, and to the amazement of the policemen, gives Valjean two silver candlesticks as well, "reminding" him that he also gifted him with those.

When the cops leave, the Bishop tells Valjean that, as Judas betrayed Jesus for silver, now for the price of this silver, the Bishop is buying Valjean's soul for God.

And with this gesture, Valjean becomes a changed man.

Not sure what light this sheds on non-fictional people who steal, but I thought it was instructive as to Les Mis.

- Rick

[Mr. Blue Sky]

5. Some people will steal out of a sense of trying to harm some one specifically.

You see this a lot with huge companies. The embittered employee thinks, "Well, I'm working this multi-billion dollar company where the bigs wigs make 50 times what I make, they're lousy to work for and I KNOW they won't miss this (whatever)."

Morals have been exchanged for rationales.

Many people find it difficult to have sympathy for a corporation that lays off 10,000 people one day and the CEO gets a $5,000,000 bonus the next.

[Johnny Angel]

Earlier in this century, and well into the past, prevailing theories about why people stole presumed that they were mentally defective. It even went so far as to suppose that criminality was a birth defect that manifested itself physiologically -- that you could tell a criminal by the shape of his head. I have a book by Harry Houdini in which he includes an illustration of a criminal's hand.

In the 1930's came Sutherland's famous study The Professional Thief which solidified a nutty little notion that had kind of been floating around that thieves act according to rational motives. They analyze the act of theft according to a risk/reward matrix, as they percieve it to be.

What also arose from this was the idea of crime as work -- a theory motivated by the fact that many criminal lives require as much work as holding down square jobs, so that laziness was not an adequate explaination for criminal behavior.

But I detect an implicit assumption that the default state is to be against stealing, and that there must be something wrong with someone who does steal. I don't see this as obviously true. I think that it's an equally valid question why it is that some of us do not steal.

[sailor]

>> But I detect an implicit assumption that the default state is to be against stealing

No, I said exactly the opposite. I think we are born selfish, with no morals, cruel, uncaring, racist, etc. Left to our own we would remain this way. It is our upbringing that gives us higher moral values and prevents us from doing things that might benefit us but would harm others.

[Yarster]

In the quest to blame poor upbringing and family values, lets not forget the other reason to steal...peer pressure. Yep, my sister and I grew up in an upper middle class family, yet she stole make-up as most teenage girls did, and I stole candy like most stupid kids do. Why? Because your friends do it and get away with it, so you do too.

Of course, neither of us got caught, which unfortunately lead me to bigger crimes like credit card and phone code theft in the early 80s, again, because of mal-adjusted friends. Fortunately, I went to college and my 'friends' took various menial jobs around town. Now I don't hang out with them and my current friends are normal upstanding members of society, hence I am too. I've also grown up a lot since then.

Of course, I still have a cable descrambling box and for some reason stealing cable seems o.k. in my mind though I know its wrong. And I suppose I occasionally speed too, which is also a crime, and again, I have a clear conscience.

[casdave]

Well most of the convicts I have to deal with have very poor education simply because they bunked off school very early on.
They do not value learning and never got the discipline of starting and completing a task as they would at school.

They are virtually unemployable but then they wouldn't want a job if it was offered.

Stealing is easy for them, much easier than work.They are simply lazy.
You can go into all sorts of justifications and they come up with many reasons to rationalise their behaviour, which suggests to me they are are not amoral, but laziness is about where it is at.

They want to do what they want to do, when they want to and however they want and resent the idea of going out and working yet they want all the accoutrements of society that money can bring.

Greed and laziness, yup that sums it up.

[curwin]

I remember a Jackie Mason routine that sort of sums up my question. He describes someone after the LA riots, saying something like "The cops were acquitted? Lets take that TV".

That logic is what bothers me. I would figure that with everything we learn at home from our parents, in school, certainly in church/synagogue/mosque etc, even from our own basic morality/common sense, that before someone gets to that point where they say "Lets take that TV", something inside would push them to say, "Well, I'd like to, but it's WRONG".

Now obviously, there are certain people who don't have that push. Those people often include worse criminals, who don't even have that push that tells them not to kill someone. And maybe most people don't have that push when it comes to something seeming smaller, like speeding or cheating on their taxes (even though they know it's wrong). But I would figure that stealing would be higher up on the curve.
And I think it is for most groups. So again, my question is, in groups where stealing is more common, is it not really educated/inoculated against, or are the thieves working against their culture, religion, etc.?

[lucwarm]

I think that some people steal because they feel/perceive wronged or frustrated. For example, I read in the paper the other day that with rising electricity prices, a lot more people are "juice-jacking." What's interesting about the crime of juice-jacking is that it can be very dangerous, and not save you a heck of a lot of money -- maybe a few hundred bucks a year.

Rationally, if you are a juice-jacker, it would arguably make a lot more sense to steal a few hundred bucks somewhere else, and use that money to pay your (higher) electricity bills. This makes me suspect that many such crimes aren't purely rational, and the criminal has other motivations. For example, he might feel that the power company is wronging him somehow by charging so much, and this is his revenge; he might also get a sense of satisfaction from "beating the system."

Anyway, I agree with the person who suggested that people steal for a lot of different reasons.

[labdude]

Factor that contribute to theft.

1 poverty. There are more instances of crime in poor neighborhoods.

2 income inequality. There is more crime when poor people live next to rich people. (I'm using poor and rich in the broadest terms)

3 age. Young men comit most crimes, and they usually stop as they get older.

4 injustice. People often steal when they feel it is their only recourse to right a percieved wrong. (see the examples about people stealing electricity or stealing from their employers)

All of these would probably apply to Palestinians living in Isreal, but not to muslims living in other countries. These would also apply to blacks living in America, but not in Kenya for example.

So if you want to solve the crime problem in Isreal, stop treating the Palestinians like crap.


And, of course, noone is discussing corporate crime. Like Firestone CEOs killing 88 people because of greed. How much jail time are they going to get.

[CandyMan]

Poverty is NOT a factor in theft. Morals are. As someone stated before, the Great Depression did not have a huge crime increase. Why? People back then thought stealing was BAD. Its not so bad now. Hell, I am as guilty as others.

Cable theft - no big deal as another poster said.
Software - How many of you purchased EVERY bit of software on your machines? Paid for all that shareware?
Time - How many of us are online from work? This counts too.
Money - You go through a fast food place and they give you the wrong change back. How many would return it?

As it becomes more and more acceptable the reasoning for doing it becomes easier and easier to argue.

Personally, I think its lame. "I *had* to steal for my drug addiction" You shouldn't have been adicted in the first place. "I stole his watch because I was drunk." I don't care. You stole. "I took that laptop from work because they OWED me that raise I didn't get." Too bad, two wrongs don't make a right, learned that in first grade. "I stole his wallet because his people have beaten my people down." Get over it, what did *HE* do to *YOU?*

Being poor has no effect on what you see as right or wrong.

CandyMan

[sailor]

Labdude, I will reiterate my disagreement. Poverty does not make you a thief. If this were true it would make the converse also true: "Being rich makes you honest".

Correlation does not prove causality. There are some very poor people who do not steal. As has been said, if your parents are scum it i likely that you will have no ethics or morals or eduication and you will be a thief and remain poor. But it is not caused directly by poverty.

There is more crime when poor people live close to rich people? I do not know if that is true but, if it is, it would justify the position of those who are opposed to those programs that give housing to poor people in more affluent neighborhoods. There was a TV newsmagazine segment on this. They followed some cases but the people pretty much did not change. They were scum when they were in the ghetto and they remained scum when they were given a home in a better neighborhood.

Age. Yes, hormones have a lot to do with crime. Being a young male makes you more likely to committ a violent crime. past the age of 50 or so this diminishes.

Injustice. Well, as has been pointed out. People *justify* what they do. They will always perceive the injustice that would justify their crimes. I do not think this explains anything.

You are of the liberal thinking that thiefs are not responsible for their crimes but are pushed to do it by an eveil society. I do not agree with you on this. We are responsible for our acts and there are many poor people who do not steal but who are honest and hard working. As I have pointed out, these people fare much better than those who steal.

Your comment about israelis being treated like crap would merit another thread but I disagree with it wholeheartedly. I am very much under the impression it is the Palestinians who cannot respect the laws and treaties they themselves have made. The state of Israel, with all it's problems is a better organization than the palestinians have or will have in a while. They do not have statehood yet and they are already runing a corrupt fascist state and engaging in their favorite passtime of blowing up israelis. I don't blame the Israelis for keeping them in check. A palestinian in Israel is way better off than an Israely in the palestinian controlled territory. But, as I say, If you want to discuss this we should open another thread and not hijack this one.

Yarster, you are very right that peer pressure is a powerful motive when you are young. I did some pretty stupid things myself for that reason. So add to the list of things parents must do one more which is to supervise who their kids associate with and keep an eye on what they are doing.

[wring]

the question was "why do people steal" which I translated to: what are the justifications and reasons people say are their motivations? so, poverty is indeed one of those.

I never meant to imply that poverty or any of the other reasons I've noted folks use were the moral equivalent of an excuse to steal.

I see that I didn't specify peer pressure as a reason, however, when I've talked to young people who went along with peer pressure to steal, there was one of the other things underlying it (most often need for excitement, as a joke and "I'm too poor -relatively- to afford all I want to own")

[CheapBastid]

Quaint and limited ideas about the causes of and reasons for theft aside it boils down simply:

1) lack of empathy
2) lack of empathy
3) lack of empathy

... as to most of society's ills.

[Johnny Angel]

CheapBastid wrote:

Quaint and limited ideas about the causes of and reasons for theft aside it boils down simply:

1) lack of empathy
2) lack of empathy
3) lack of empathy

... as to most of society's ills.

To the extent that this is true, it's trivially true. You could just as correctly blame lack of entrophy, lack of entropy, lack of entropy. Both explanations are true, but meaningless.

In any case, empathy admits to qualification, unless we suppose that we should feel the same for a poorly child who drops a dime into a sewer grating as we feel for a rich adult who drops a diamond. We may even be tempted not to feel sorry for the adult at all, in this case, though this too is a lack of empathy. I would argue that absolute empathy is neither called for nor desirable. Nor is a sufficient level of empathy on the part of each and every member of a society to prevent theft altogether likely to be desirable. Since there are not enough resources for everyone to have everything they want, or even everything they need, somebody has to be willing to screw somebody else out of what resources there are, or else everybody will simply starve.