Book discussion: THE CHRONICLES OF NARNIA (open spoilers likely)

[Skald the Rhymer]

As you may have noticed, I've been trying to start a different book discussion thread each week. Since the His Dark Materials discussion was a lot more fruitful than the Lovely Bones one, I thought I'd go back to a fantasy series: specifically C. S. Lewis' The Chronicles of Narnia (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0064471195?v=glance).

I won't bother with a summary; the books are famous enough that I'm sure there's an ample supply of Lewisians and anti-Lewisians on the board. Instead I'll just try jumpstarting the discussion with a few questions. As always, feel free to answer as few or as many as you wish, or to add your own.

1. When did you first read the Chronicles, and what prompted you to do so? Were you introduced by a parent, a teacher, the 70s' animated cartoon, the recent movie, or something else?

2. Do you find the Chronicles' Christian subtext an asset or a defect? If you are a Christian, do you feel the books have assisted you in your spiritual journey? If you are an atheist,

3. Which of the books is your favorite, and why? Which is your least favorite, and why?

4. Which of the books do you think is best written? If this one is not your favorite, why do you downgrade it?

5. Of the Chronicles' eleven child protagonists--Peter, Susan, Edmund, Lucy, Caspian, Eustace, Jill, Shasta, Aravis, Digory, and Polly--whom do you like best? Whom do you most dislike? Whom do you identify with?

6. Do you think Susan went to hell? If so, does this reduce your enjoyment of the books? If you think she didn't, why not?

7. What do you think is the most valid criticism of the books? What is the series' greatest strength?

8. Did you like the recent movie, dislike it, or refuse to watch it?

9. A few years ago there were rumblings that HarperCollins might hire writers to add on to the Chronicles, possibly requring that the stories have less religious subtext. What do you think of this idea?

10. So what IS the proper order for reading the books? Publication order or internal chronology?

[Skald the Rhymer]

I suppose I might answer the questions myself in the interests of not being a jerk.


1. When did you first read the Chronicles, and what prompted you to do so? Were you introduced by a parent, a teacher, the 70s' animated cartoon, the recent movie, or something else?


I saw the cartoon in the 70s. My sixth-grade teacher, the first to recognize and salute my inner geek, gave me the books as a Christmas present, and I fell utterly in love.


2. Do you find the Chronicles' Christian subtext an asset or a defect? If you are a Christian, do you feel the books have assisted you in your spiritual journey? If you are an atheist, how much does the subtext bother you?


(I just added on the italized section, as I forgot to preview before posting).

I think the subtext is an asset; there's a lot more going on in the books than a simple adventure story, and keeping the spiriitual themes implicit rather than explicit makes the story more engaging than the pablum we got in Sunday School. (





3. Which of the books is your favorite, and why? Which is your least favorite, and why?



The Voyage of the Dawn Treader is definitely my favorite to read; it's my comfort food for times of emotional or spiritual distress, partiularly the story ofhte Dark Island. I don't dislike any of the stories, but the depressing plot of The Last Battle keeps it at the bottom of my Lewis reading list.


4. Which of the books do you think is best written? If this one is not your favorite, why do you downgrade it?



The Silver Chair is the best-written, I'd say, the most "adult" in many ways, but I didn't like it at all as a child.


5. Of the Chronicles' eleven child protagonists--Peter, Susan, Edmund, Lucy, Caspian, Eustace, Jill, Shasta, Aravis, Digory, and Polly--whom do you like best? Whom do you most dislike? Whom do you identify with?


I most like Eustace as presented the latter half of Treader; I most dislike him before his draconic transformation; and I most identify with him. Trifecta!


6. Do you think Susan went to hell? If so, does this reduce your enjoyment of the books? If you think she didn't, why not?

I honestly am not sure what happens to Susan; I don't think the case for her being damned is as clear as Philip Pullman makes it seem. I understand why some people dislike Battle because of that possibility, though it doesn't reduce my overall enjoyment.




7. What do you think is the most valid criticism of the books? What is the series' greatest strength?


Prince Caspian is too obviously a retread of The Lion, the Witch, & the Wardrobe, so that bothers me; and I wish Lewis had lived to reconcile the tone & the presentation of Aslan in The Magician's Nephew with Wardrobe.


8. Did you like the recent movie, dislike it, or refuse to watch it?


A certain movie I shall not name has put me off ever watching adaptations of books I love.


9. A few years ago there were rumblings that HarperCollins might hire writers to add on to the Chronicles, possibly requring that the stories have less religious subtext. What do you think of this idea?



Once I am god-king of Earth, anyone who even contemplates such a thing shall be fed alive to ravenous mongooses. Or mongeese. Or whatever you call Riki-Tiki-Tavi plus a hundred of his cousins.


10. So what IS the proper order for reading the books? Publication order or internal chronology?

Publication order, of course. ::muttering about bastards at HarperCollins::

[Anaamika]

Woohoo! One of my favorite series. I asked for it as a Christmas gift two years ago. I'm 30, btw.

1. When did you first read the Chronicles, and what prompted you to do so? Were you introduced by a parent, a teacher, the 70s' animated cartoon, the recent movie, or something else?

I'm not sure. I was reading C.S. Lewis for a little while, and I don't think I happened on Chronicles first. Must have been a librarian who suggested it.

2. Do you find the Chronicles' Christian subtext an asset or a defect? If you are a Christian, do you feel the books have assisted you in your spiritual journey? If you are an atheist,

I never ever noticed the Christian subtext until I was an adult. Now I feel it is fairly subtle and I still re-read them with enjoyment and it doesn't bother me. Why not? Of all the ways to impart your beliefs, this is the one I can most easily get behind...books.

3. Which of the books is your favorite, and why? Which is your least favorite, and why?

The Voyage of the Dawn Treader. Still one of my favorite adventure books. What a great idea for a book/movie/RPG - go looking for the seven lost lords and find all kinds of beautiful and mysterious places in the journey.
4. Which of the books do you think is best written? If this one is not your favorite, why do you downgrade it?[/B]

n...I still have to go with Voyage of the Dawn Treader.

5. Of the Chronicles' eleven child protagonists--Peter, Susan, Edmund, Lucy, Caspian, Eustace, Jill, Shasta, Aravis, Digory, and Polly--whom do you like best? Whom do you most dislike? Whom do you identify with?

I like Caspian best. Honest, forthright, and adventurous. Shortly after that I like Eustace....post-transformation, of course. I despise Jill and Polly. They are both convinced they are right and more often than not it seems like they have this conviction simply because they are girls.

6. Do you think Susan went to hell? If so, does this reduce your enjoyment of the books? If you think she didn't, why not?

I'm not sure what Lewis had in mind, really. I like to think she didn't of course, but he might have sent here there. I like to think she simply chose her own life.

7. What do you think is the most valid criticism of the books? What is the series' greatest strength?

That it is a Christian allegory. Many people do criticize it for this, and it's true. What else is there to say?
The greatest strength is the fact that it can still be read as a pure fantasy story.

8. Did you like the recent movie, dislike it, or refuse to watch it?I rather liked it. I own it.

9. A few years ago there were rumblings that HarperCollins might hire writers to add on to the Chronicles, possibly requring that the stories have less religious subtext. What do you think of this idea?

*throws up* Well, you get the idea. Yuck. What a stupid idea.

10. So what IS the proper order for reading the books? Publication order or internal chronology?
Um....publication order. Lion first.

[Anaamika]

BTW, and I don't want to hijack, but you constantly beat up on the LOTR movies. You're entitled to your opinion of course,, but I rather liked the movies and could easily separate them from the movels. I think Jackson did a great job of bringing a very difficult task to screen...I can see why no one attempted it before him, and I really loved them.

Just throwing in my thoughts. :)

[Skammer]

1. When did you first read the Chronicles, and what prompted you to do so? Were you introduced by a parent, a teacher, the 70s' animated cartoon, the recent movie, or something else?I was in grade school; but I honestly don't remember why I read it. I do remember my 5th grade teacher reading Silver Chair to us, but I don't think I read the whole series for myself until several years later, maybe high school.

2. Do you find the Chronicles' Christian subtext an asset or a defect? If you are a Christian, do you feel the books have assisted you in your spiritual journey? If you are an atheist, Like many people who first read them as children, the Christian subtext went right over my head for a long time, even though I was raised in a Christian home. As I got older, I grew to appreciate them - in fact I realized that it was those themes that had resonated with me when I was young, even though I didn't recognize it at the time. As I get older, every time I re-read the story it means something deeper to me. I guess it's like that scene in PC where Lucy observes that Aslan has grown bigger, and He tells her that no, she has grown, and the older she gets, the bigger he will seem.

3. Which of the books is your favorite, and why? Which is your least favorite, and why? Dawn Treader is easily my favorite. Action packed, with a very moving conversion/redemption story and a hopeful finale. The Horse and His Boy was my least favorite as a child, but I like it more now. Prince Caspian is probably my least favorite.
4. Which of the books do you think is best written? If this one is not your favorite, why do you downgrade it? Hmmmm. I think Lion or Dawn Treader are the best-written, in terms of characters, plotting and ideas. Lion is probably my second favorite as well.

5. Of the Chronicles' eleven child protagonists--Peter, Susan, Edmund, Lucy, Caspian, Eustace, Jill, Shasta, Aravis, Digory, and Polly--whom do you like best? Whom do you most dislike? Whom do you identify with? As the oldest child in my family, I always liked and identified with Peter. I always wondered if I could be as noble as he was when tested. On the other hand, I never really liked Digory as a boy. I did like him as the adult Prof. Kirke, though.

6. Do you think Susan went to hell? If so, does this reduce your enjoyment of the books? If you think she didn't, why not? I don't think she did, and I think Lewis intentionally did not address her fate. Like Aslan says in The Horse and His Boy, that is part of her [Susan's] story, and we are not always told what happens in other people's stories.

7. What do you think is the most valid criticism of the books? What is the series' greatest strength? The racist and sexist attitudes that were unremarkable in Lewis' time certainly make the books seem dated today. I don't think Lewis can be blamed for attitudes that reflected his culture, but they can take me out of the story today. As for strengths, Lewis was remarkable in the way that he introduced so many Christian themes into the stories - sacrifice, redemption, free will, predestination, love, etc.
8. Did you like the recent movie, dislike it, or refuse to watch it? I wasn't blown away, but I thought it was pretty decent. I certainly didn't dislike it. I really liked the young actress who played Lucy. I'm a little nervous about the upcoming Prince Caspian movie, which IMHO is a weaker book to start with.

9. A few years ago there were rumblings that HarperCollins might hire writers to add on to the Chronicles, possibly requring that the stories have less religious subtext. What do you think of this idea? :mad: :mad: :mad:

10. So what IS the proper order for reading the books? Publication order or internal chronology? Publication order! Reading them in chronological order is blasphemous!!

[Skald the Rhymer]

BTW, and I don't want to hijack, but you constantly beat up on the LOTR movies. You're entitled to your opinion of course,, but I rather liked the movies and could easily separate them from the movels. I think Jackson did a great job of bringing a very difficult task to screen...I can see why no one attempted it before him, and I really loved them.

Just throwing in my thoughts. :)

Anaamika, I might point out that I didn't actually mention LOTR; I've been praising it in my beautiful cinematic moments thread. And I love the first two. (Well, I love Fellowship and am extremelly fond of Towers.) Incredibly, it was another movie I've been mocking in another thread (League of Extraordinary Gentlemen) that soured me on adaptations; but I didn't want to bring that argument over here, which is why I didn't mention either.

[Ghanima]

I first read the books when I was very young, so young I don't really remember a time when I hadn't read them. I never even noticed the Xtian thing until I was much older. It doesn't bother me and had no effect on me spiritually. I am an atheist.

My favorite book is The Horse and His Boy. I loved the adventure and I loved the horse. My least favorite is The Last Battle, it seems not to really fit with the rest of the series. I have no opinion on which is the best written.

Jill is probably my favorite character, I like that she really enjoys her adventure. Peter is my least favorite - he is so boring!

I doubt Susan went to hell...I just don't think the books are that mean-spirited. Maybe I'm being naive.

I don't put much stock in any criticisms about the book. I loved their creativity and the adventures and the use of normal children as the protagonists.

I liked the movie, but it wasn't that great. I dislike the idea of anyone adding to the series.

I don't think there is a proper order for reading the books other than reading LionWitchWardrobe first.

[Anaamika]

Anaamika, I might point out that I didn't actually mention LOTR; I've been praising it in my beautiful cinematic moments thread. And I love the first two. (Well, I love Fellowship and am extremelly fond of Towers.) Incredibly, it was another movie I've been mocking in another thread (League of Extraordinary Gentlemen) that soured me on adaptations; but I didn't want to bring that argument over here, which is why I didn't mention either.
Oh. :embarrassed: No, I didn't see that you had mentioned it, I just knew you were negative on it and had seen it in many other threads. So I thought you were referring to it here. So I thought I'd finally bring it up. I am sorry. And I'm with you on League, I saw that movie myself and thought it was a great concept but really ruined in execution.

I also see I didn't answer one of your questions. That being:

Which book did you like the least?

And for me it would have to be The Magician's Nephew. Way too much time spent in this world.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Oh. :embarrassed: No, I didn't see that you had mentioned it, I just knew you were negative on it and had seen it in many other threads. So I thought you were referring to it here.


S'alright. I have resolved to no longer bash ROTK, as even I am bored with hearing me do so. So let me instead praise the ethereal beauty that is Fellowship.

So I thought I'd finally bring it up. I am sorry. And I'm with you on League, I saw that movie myself and thought it was a great concept but really ruined in execution.


I also see I didn't answer one of your questions. That being:

Which book did you like the least?

And for me it would have to be The Magician's Nephew. Way too much time spent in this world.

:eek:

But..but...that has the best line of dialog in ANY of the Chronicles..when the Great Lion is talking about Digory's mother's illness for the first time. "Grief is great," Aslan said. "Only you and I in this land know that yet. Let us be good to one another."

Gosh, I love Aslan.

[foolsguinea]

1. I was a small child, about 6 I guess. I read them out of order, & some multiple times, over a few years in my childhood. I found them reasonably quick reads; I could tear through some in a few hours.

2. I think I've tried to explain this in an earlier thread, to the great offense of other Lewis fans: I'm glad of the Xtian context, in that it allowed Lewis's philosophy to be "OK" in my fundamentalist subculture; & let him begin lead me out of that particularly toxic sort of religion to something more embracing of the world, more ecumenical, more human, & finally, in my case (& I mean no offense to Jack Lewis in this) not actually Christian after all. In my dark adolesence, when my own worldview & all those around me seemed morbid & foul, the worldview of the Chronicles held a light up for me: that view that the good is far larger & more beautiful than the evil. Such a view was not articulated by many in my church. After I left Xtianity, even after I knew I couldn't go back, I read The Case for Christianity & thought, "I would like to believe in the world he speaks of."

3. I now say, even without being prompted, that The Horse & His Boy is my favourite. Come to think of it, I think The Magician's Nephew was my fave at one time. And this is odd, in that I don't have favorites of most things.
Why? As a kid, I only had copies of four of the books: TLTWATW, The Silver Chair, The Horse & His Boy, & The Magician's Nephew. I read them more than the others. It's perhaps too obvious to hold the first favorite? I dunno. The Silver Chair is amazing, but the Emerald Witch creeped me out so much as a kid that I'd try to skip over parts when rereading it. At one time, though, it may have meant the most to me; I'm not sure. in TMN, I like the 19th-Century setting, Uncle Andrew's characterization, & the peek into the larger extracosmic context. But I like TH&HB for... um... OK, I guess it's the sense of a larger world than Narnia, the treatment of Rabadash, the conversations with Aslan & the old man who never met any such creature as Luck (cute), the sense of the Pevensies as adults, & the serious & total immersion in that world. Also, this quote:“For this is what it means to be a king: to be first in every desperate attack and last in every desperate retreat, and when there's hunger in the land (as must be now and then in bad years) to wear finer clothes and laugh louder over a scantier meal than any man in your land.”
4. It's been way too long since I've read most of them for me to pick a best written. But I seem to recall TLTWATW being a quite good introduction to the whole thing, whereas Prince Caspian, by contrast, was a bit slow going early on.

5. Meaningless question. OK, Lucy seems to me to be obviously the primary identification character in the first book. And I quite like her. But honestly, I thought (was it really just my age?) the other Pevensies (esp. Peter & Susan) got short shrift. My favorite book is The Horse & His Boy, so I guess I could say Shasta. But Jill has some good scenes, too.
Screw it, I'm going to say Corin just to be contrary, even though he's not remotely a protagonist.

6. I used to think Susan was lost (The Last Battle doesn't do Hell), but something else I read got me over it. Apparently in TLB, England didn't end, but Jill & Eustace's lives in England ended. They spoke of Susan as they knew her at the time, not her final fate. Besides, Jack Lewis didn't describe Hell conventionally. Even the blinded dwarfs are in Aslan's Place, though they see it not.
Actually, what diminished my enjoyment of TLB was that it was the End of the World. Ick. I hated the Apocalypse as a child, & looked for a way out of Xtianity because of its disgusting love for the End of All Things. Also, I was not real crazy about the portrayal of the little Narnia-clique & the double contempt: their contempt for Susan's contempt for them. And really, what's wrong with lipstick & boys?!

7. I dunno what qualifies as a "valid criticism" of the books. The greatest strength is Lewis's clear prose style, including the ability to deal with the themes he chose in a readable way.

8. ...Um, I haven't gotten around to it. None of the above?

9. I'm a bit leery of hiring someone to "add to" the Chronicles, but I wouldn't declare war over it. Anytime a fan (or hired gun) tries to continue a series, he risks some other fans' annoyance, because it's not how they would have done it. There'd have to be a strong line drawn between Jack's stuff & the new stuff. But if it got us some cool fanfic of the unrevealed history of Archenland, that might be fun.

10. I read the books very much out of order, & it still works. They aren't one long book, you know. But TLTWATW is clearly #1.

[foolsguinea]

Oh, yeah, I got wrapped up in another question. I was introduced to the series through the animated cartoon of the 1970's. It was actually shown at my church.

[foolsguinea]

Um, do I really need to add that The Last Battle is my least favorite book, & I found Eustace to be a right twit at the beginning of ...Dawn Treader?

No? Thought not.

[Dung Beetle]

1. When did you first read the Chronicles, and what prompted you to do so? Were you introduced by a parent, a teacher, the 70s' animated cartoon, the recent movie, or something else?

I picked up The Lion The Witch and the Wardrobe because it had the word "Witch" in the title. When I was a kid...aw, heck, even now...I was drawn to any kind of story with a supernatural element.

2. Do you find the Chronicles' Christian subtext an asset or a defect? If you are a Christian, do you feel the books have assisted you in your spiritual journey? If you are an atheist,

I read TLTW&TW about twenty times before I read any of the others, and it took me a long time to notice the parallels, although I went to a Christian school. I felt Aslan was far more lovable than Jesus. I turned out to be an atheist anyway, but I still enjoy reading anything C.S.L. wrote. The man was a genius.

3. Which of the books is your favorite, and why? Which is your least favorite, and why?

The Dawn Treader is my favorite because of the variety of magical places they visited. I'm sitting here trying to decide which island was my favorite, but I can't do it. Least favorite book is The Last Battle. It's a huge downer, and it's hard for me to let go of my beloved Narnia, no matter what it's a "pale shadow" of.

4. Which of the books do you think is best written? If this one is not your favorite, why do you downgrade it?

I think they are all well written.

5. Of the Chronicles' eleven child protagonists--Peter, Susan, Edmund, Lucy, Caspian, Eustace, Jill, Shasta, Aravis, Digory, and Polly--whom do you like best? Whom do you most dislike? Whom do you identify with?

Best: Edmund. He screwed up and learned from it. I can't recall the specific scene at the moment, but he showed mercy to a traitor, because he knew what it was like to make a mistake. And Eustace, he kept things interesting by behaving like a jerk for so long.
Most disliked: Jill and Polly, silly girls.
Identify with: Heck, I guess it's Edmund again.

6. Do you think Susan went to hell? If so, does this reduce your enjoyment of the books? If you think she didn't, why not?

I don't think she did, because she was still alive at the end, so she could have changed her ways. We're just not to know how it turned out for Susan, and I think it's a nice touch of realism that all the children don't necessarily live happily ever after.

7. What do you think is the most valid criticism of the books? What is the series' greatest strength?

Criticism: They are cutesy and twee. I don't mind that in a book, if the story is good.
Strength: The story is damned good.

8. Did you like the recent movie, dislike it, or refuse to watch it?

It was okay. I've seen worse adaptations. However, they changed the part where Edmund meets Lucy in the wardrobe, lies about it to the others, and then inadvertently admits that he's been to Narnia before. I think it's an important part to the development of his character.

9. A few years ago there were rumblings that HarperCollins might hire writers to add on to the Chronicles, possibly requring that the stories have less religious subtext. What do you think of this idea?

I think I'd get physically violent with anyone who suggested such a thing, or thought it was a good idea.

10. So what IS the proper order for reading the books? Publication order or internal chronology?

It's publication order.

[Voyager]

1. When did you first read the Chronicles, and what prompted you to do so? Were you introduced by a parent, a teacher, the 70s' animated cartoon, the recent movie, or something else?

I collect fantasy and science fiction. I read Lion quite some years ago, and decided to wait until I found the rest of the books used to read the entire series. I finally got to it last summer.

2. Do you find the Chronicles' Christian subtext an asset or a defect? If you are a Christian, do you feel the books have assisted you in your spiritual journey? If you are an atheist,

Atheist. Sometimes the subtext is subtle, and no problem, but sometimes Lewis slams you in the head with it, and it detracts from the story.

3. Which of the books is your favorite, and why? Which is your least favorite, and why?

The Magician's Nephew is my favorite, since it contains the only real humor in the series - the scene outside their house. The Last Battle is the worst - it is a mess in lots of ways. Not just the religion, but the Narnians are idiots, which they never were before. They make the Jedi Council seem right on top of things.

4. Which of the books do you think is best written? If this one is not your favorite, why do you downgrade it?

Voyage of the Dawn Treader is good, with lots of incidents. My biggest gripe about Lion is that Lewis, perhaps not trusting his audience, does not let any suspence go on for more than a page or two.

5. Of the Chronicles' eleven child protagonists--Peter, Susan, Edmund, Lucy, Caspian, Eustace, Jill, Shasta, Aravis, Digory, and Polly--whom do you like best? Whom do you most dislike? Whom do you identify with?

Mostly ciphers.

6. Do you think Susan went to hell? If so, does this reduce your enjoyment of the books? If you think she didn't, why not?

Yes. Look at how badly Lewis handles love and sex. Forget Jill, but consider how the four siblings go through adult life in Narnia then become children again without any apparent maturity. They went through 50 years or so of life with no romantic involvement - basically children playing knights. I believe it was A Horse and His Boy where the prospect of one of the girls getting married was horrid. I know that it was against her will, but I got the impression that any marriage, thus any sex, desired or not was considered an evil.
7. What do you think is the most valid criticism of the books? What is the series' greatest strength?

Good children's literature should address a child's concerns about the world and about growing up. Look how well Harry Potter does this, or the Ramona books. People age in Narnia, but do they grow? Then, many of the books use Aslan as a literal deus ex machina, rescuing the so called heroes. I understand the theological significance, but it makes for poor literature.

8. Did you like the recent movie, dislike it, or refuse to watch it?


Not refuse, have no interest.

9. A few years ago there were rumblings that HarperCollins might hire writers to add on to the Chronicles, possibly requring that the stories have less religious subtext. What do you think of this idea?


In general, I believe series like this should be left alone. I don't want to see LoTR, the Shire years either.

10. So what IS the proper order for reading the books? Publication order or internal chronology?
Publication order worked fine for me. Reading the Magicians Nephew first would lose the significance of the events.

[QuizCustodet]

I first encountered the Chronicles when my father read them aloud to the family - I was probably 6 or 7 when we started. My parents both adore Lewis, and so there was much Narnia reading and discussion throughout my childhood. Probably because of this, I don't have a very clear memory of when I 'got' the subtext - I'm pretty sure I didn't on the first reading, but I remember treating it as common knowledge by the time I was 11. (When I ridiculed my school's principal who was perfectly happy to stage the musical Narnia, but wanted to change 'Father Christmas' to 'Father Spring' in order to avoid offending non-Christians. :wally )

Re-reading the books while aware of the subtext, it annoys me by different amounts in different books. tLB is by far my least favorite book, because there seems to be little actual story to disguise the subtext! Indeed, without a reasonably thorough grasp of Christian theology, bits of tLB - like Susan's ultimate fate - are obscure. (So I don't think Susan is going to hell, though I think she's likely to be in a state analagous to the Catholic 'mortal sin' at the time of tLB. But I don't think that is obvious from the text alone.) Similarly, although I like VotDT a lot, I think that the ending is really odd; mostly, it seems, because Lewis was determined to make a point about the spiritual life. The other books have strong enough stories that I think the sub-text is a plus, as it adds depth to an already functional narrative. I think this willingness to sacrifice plot for piety is the greatest flaw in the fiction I've read by Lewis, though not all of the books exhibit it.

Before I re-read them all, VotDT was my favorite. On re-reading, though, the points about the ending raised above and the horrible defense of colonialism lowered it considerably in my eyes. I'm left without a clear favorite to fall back on, but if forced I think I'd choose tHahB, because I think both Sasha and Aravis are quite fun. Second place to tMN, as Polly and Diggory are similarly fun, and I'm not sure there's comedy anywhere else in the series to match Jadis in London.

re: the recent movie. My summary was 'meh.' A few weeks before seeing the new movie, I watched the BBC mini-series from the 1988. The new film certainly addressed the weaknesses in special effects and costuming in the original, but the script was (IMO) needlessly changed. In particular, the Pevensies' apparent willingness to abandon Narnia to its fate until Edmund deserts them drastically coarsens the characters and the sense of the narrative was sacrificed to cram more action scenes in. Like the iceberg scene. WTF? I thought it was silly overall, because I think adopting the BBC script wholesale and updating the effects would have produced a better movie than we got.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Then, many of the books use Aslan as a literal deus ex machina, rescuing the so called heroes.

I don't think that's a fair criticism. The only book in which Aslan personally solves the overall problem is The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, and I'd say HE'S the protagonist of that one; it's basically a retelling of the Passion narrative. I agree that Aslan ultimately defeats the witch, but he goes out of his way to recruit mortal Narnians to help him do so.

In Prince Caspian, Peter and Caspian's army defeats the Telmarines without any direct intervention from Aslan. True, Aslan does free the river-god at Beruna and otherwise bring magic back to the land, but he doesn't intervene in the military engagement. Afterwards he does act as judge to the Telmarines, but that's hardly a rescue; the Pevensies and the old narnians don't NEED rescuing. (You could say he rescues the Telmariens from THEM.) For the most part he acts to keep the travellers on the right path: e.g., his appearance to Lucy (and gradually the other Pevensies) as they travel through the gorge to the Stone How. But he lets them choose to follow the wrong path, respecting their free will.

Dawn Treader is very episodic; there is no overall problem to solve. Aslan lets (or forces) Caspian & company to rescue themselves from the slavers on the Lone Islands, from the sea-serpent, and on the Island of the Duffers he is clearly watching the whole time without interfering. He intervenes thrice: saving the ship from the Dark Island, returning Eustace to human form, and putting an end to the argument on Deathwater. And, of course, he sends Eustance & the Pevensies home, but that's not a rescue either; it's the end of the story, and they don't particularly want to.

In The Silver Chair he appars very little, charging Jill with the quest at the beginning but otherwise letting the questors get further and further into a pickle born of not following his orders in the first place.

In The Horse and His Boy, he mostly acts subtly: prodding Aravis & Shasta to meet, and giving the horses speed born of fear so they warn Archenland in time, and punishing Aravis. But he allows (or forces) the Northlanders to fight the Calormenes on their own, appearing only at the end to judge Rabadash.

In The Magician's Nephew he gives Digory his quest but doesn't do much to help him accomplish it. In fact, as someone observes, he is deliberately UNhelpful, in that he doesn't provide food for Digory & Polly because they don't have the sense to ask him to do so. (Hey, maybe Aslan is a dick).

And, finally, in The Last Battle, he does nothing at all to prevent the conquest of the Northlands and the end of the world; he doesn't even intervene when he is being outrageously slandered and blasphemed. (Of course, he never seems to give a damn about what people say about him anyway.) Even his usual role of keeping the travellers on the right path is relinquished to Jewel the Unicorn, who does not do the best job of it. 'Course, Jewel has the handicap of not being a god.

No, Aslan is no deus ex machina. One might even argue that, since he regularly lets the Narnians & Archenlanders fight and die in battles he could end in moments, he's something of a dick.

Just kidding, Aslan! Please don't eat me!

[Eonwe]

1. When did you first read the Chronicles, and what prompted you to do so? Were you introduced by a parent, a teacher, the 70s' animated cartoon, the recent movie, or something else?

It was elementary school... maybe around 3rd grade (which is when I read The Hobbit). We had a boxed set at home with artwork like that shown onthis page (http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~aahobor/Lucy-Day/Book-Categories/Juvenile-Sci-Fi-Fantasy.shtml), though slightly different (the illustrations were the whole cover, not framed as they are there), which I thought were really cool pictures.


2. Do you find the Chronicles' Christian subtext an asset or a defect? If you are a Christian, do you feel the books have assisted you in your spiritual journey? If you are an atheist, how much does the subtext bother you?

As a kid I didn't notice it at all. Even though I really liked the books, I only read them for the second time in high school when someone mentioned the Christian subtext. "I guess I can kind of see that," thought I, and read them again. Woah! Being a bit more aware, I was embarrased I hadn't noticed it before. But, as an athiest, the subtext doesn't 'bother' me. It is what it is; The Chronicles are great stories that allude strongly to religious themes.


3. Which of the books is your favorite, and why? Which is your least favorite, and why?

Hm... I've always loved Dawn Treader[/b], [i]Magician's Nephew, Silver Chair, and The Horse and His Boy, but of those I think Dawn Treader has consistantly been my favorite. A great adventure across the sea into the unknown. Love it. I do get a little tired of the Eustace changing into a dragon part.

My least favorite is definitely Prince Caspian. The Last Battle I used to love but, as others have said, everyone in it is just so darned stupid that I don't like it much anymore. What redeems it though is the description at the end of Time bringing the world to an end. Prince Caspian, however, is a boring story in which nothing particularly inspiring happens. It's a total snooze-fest.


4. Which of the books do you think is best written? If this one is not your favorite, why do you downgrade it?

Hrm. It's been a while now since I've read these, but, um... I don't know. In general I think Lewis can write some very enchanting and moving description, and I wish he did it more. In any of my favorites above (except for Horse, but including The Last Battle) he has some wonderful images.


5. Of the Chronicles' eleven child protagonists--Peter, Susan, Edmund, Lucy, Caspian, Eustace, Jill, Shasta, Aravis, Digory, and Polly--whom do you like best? Whom do you most dislike? Whom do you identify with?

Whom do I like? Jill I think, mainly because she's the non-jerk protagonist in my favorite of the series. The least? Eustace, for the oposite reason. ;) Whom do I identify with? I think Susan. She just always seemed the most compasionate, level-headed, and reasonable of the initial bunch.


6. Do you think Susan went to hell? If so, does this reduce your enjoyment of the books? If you think she didn't, why not?

Is it hinted that she did? I definitely didn't pick up on that bit. But, regardless, I don't think that Lewis would be sending any of his main characters to hell.


7. What do you think is the most valid criticism of the books? What is the series' greatest strength?

The one thing I can't stand are the occasional but blatant jabs at the various 'social ills' (in Lewis' mind) of the time. Bits about the 'new schools' where kids got to wear horrible things and didn't have to accomplish anything, and girls didn't know how to behave like girls, blah blah blah. Culturally they're a neat window into the mind and times of C.S. Lewis, but boy do they detract from my immersion in the rest of the story.


8. Did you like the recent movie, dislike it, or refuse to watch it?

I liked it. Nothing to write home about. I also will say that that book is far from my favorite of the bunch as well.


9. A few years ago there were rumblings that HarperCollins might hire writers to add on to the Chronicles, possibly requring that the stories have less religious subtext. What do you think of this idea?

I think that idea is stupid.


10. So what IS the proper order for reading the books? Publication order or internal chronology?

Publication order. Allusions in The Magician's Nephew makes no sense as the first book in the series, as introductions and descriptions in TLtWatW lose a lot of meaning coming after the afore mentioned book.

[Anaamika]

Then, many of the books use Aslan as a literal deus ex machina, rescuing the so called heroes. I understand the theological significance, but it makes for poor literature.


*opens mouth*
*sees Skald's answer*

Yup, that's right - Skald's nailed it.

[The Great Sun Jester]

No, Aslan is no deus ex machina. One might even argue that, since he regularly lets the Narnians & Archenlanders fight and die in battles he could end in moments, he's something of a dick. Well, he's not a tame lion!

My first exposure was to the book collection 8 months ago. Read them in order beginning with The Magician's Nephew. I can't imagine starting with TLTWandTW, there'd be too many holes. Kinda like trying to get into LOTR without first reading The Hobbit.

Can someone give me the basis for the "Susan Went To Hell" angle? I never came up with anything like that. In fact, I got the idea that if Lewis had a Hell, it was damned difficult to get into. Even a good-spirited servant of an evil god had a place in paradise above misled/mean-spirited followers of Aslan, the latter of which were still in a good place, just ignorant of the truth they refused to accept.

[QuizCustodet]

In The Silver Chair he appars very little, charging Jill with the quest at the beginning but otherwise letting the questors get further and further into a pickle born of not following his orders in the first place.


This reminds me of a question that struck me when I was watching the BBC miniseries of The Silver Chair. Was there some particular reason mentioned that Jill and Eustace couldn't just write the directions down? Jill managed to produce them at Cair Paravel, but after some uncertainty - that would have seemed an excellent time to make a record of it!

[Skald the Rhymer]

*opens mouth*
*sees Skald's answer*

Yup, that's right - Skald's nailed it.


I'm ALWAYS right when it comes to Lewis.


::struts off self-importantly, trips over own shoe laces, gets on accursed ring stuck in nose, and wanders wimpering & en-wyrmed into the night::

[Lemur866]

Well, the "directions" thing was just a parable about saying daily prayers. It was a pretty weak parable too.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Well, he's not a tame lion!

My first exposure was to the book collection 8 months ago. Read them in order beginning with The Magician's Nephew. I can't imagine starting with TLTWandTW, there'd be too many holes. Kinda like trying to get into LOTR without first reading The Hobbit.

Can someone give me the basis for the "Susan Went To Hell" angle? I never came up with anything like that. In fact, I got the idea that if Lewis had a Hell, it was damned difficult to get into. Even a good-spirited servant of an evil god had a place in paradise above misled/mean-spirited followers of Aslan, the latter of which were still in a good place, just ignorant of the truth they refused to accept.

Philip Pullman opined that Lewis was a big ole meanie for sending Susan to hell. I'd get you the cite, but my books are wwaayy over that way & I have this ring stuck in my nose.

[StuffLikeThatThere]

1. When did you first read the Chronicles, and what prompted you to do so? Were you introduced by a parent, a teacher, the 70s' animated cartoon, the recent movie, or something else?

I don't remember ever not having read them. This leads me to believe that I must have read them nearly as soon as I was reading chapter books. Six? Seven? Eight? Don't remember. I read them because they were in the house, and I read everything in the house.

2. Do you find the Chronicles' Christian subtext an asset or a defect? If you are a Christian, do you feel the books have assisted you in your spiritual journey?

I'm a Christian. I find the spiritual subtext to be an asset. I do think they've assisted me in my spiritual journey: sometimes truths are more palatable and easier to understand when told as allegory.

8. Did you like the recent movie, dislike it, or refuse to watch it?

I liked it. I was fearful that many of the symbols would have been changed because they were too related to the spiritual subtext, and it doesn't seem to have happened. I hate the idea of this. Someone recently mentioned the idea of "cleaning up" Steinbeck's fiction and re-releasing it. It is what it is, folks. It speaks of the time it was written, and I think it's important to hear what it's saying. Changing the words or images we don't like seems like censorship all dressed up as political correctness.

9. A few years ago there were rumblings that HarperCollins might hire writers to add on to the Chronicles, possibly requring that the stories have less religious subtext. What do you think of this idea?

I think it's a terrible idea. I remember hearing that Margaret Mitchell was begged to write a sequel to Gone With the Wind and refused, saying that the story ended there. If the original creator of the story thinks it ended, leave it alone. As for sanitizing them, see above answer.

10. So what IS the proper order for reading the books? Publication order or internal chronology?

Publication order. If you read the Magician's Nephew before TLtWatW, you lose all the wonder that comes with figuring out what really is going on. I nearly had a coronary the first time I saw a boxed set that didn't have TLtWatW as book one. What IS this world coming to?

[StuffLikeThatThere]

1. When did you first read the Chronicles, and what prompted you to do so? Were you introduced by a parent, a teacher, the 70s' animated cartoon, the recent movie, or something else?

I don't remember ever not having read them. This leads me to believe that I must have read them nearly as soon as I was reading chapter books. Six? Seven? Eight? Don't remember. I read them because they were in the house, and I read everything in the house.

2. Do you find the Chronicles' Christian subtext an asset or a defect? If you are a Christian, do you feel the books have assisted you in your spiritual journey?

I'm a Christian. I find the spiritual subtext to be an asset. I do think they've assisted me in my spiritual journey: sometimes truths are more palatable and easier to understand when told as allegory. And more easily remembered.

8. Did you like the recent movie, dislike it, or refuse to watch it?

I liked it. I was fearful that many of the symbols would have been changed because they were too related to the spiritual subtext, and it doesn't seem to have happened. I hate the idea of this. Someone recently mentioned the idea of "cleaning up" Steinbeck's fiction and re-releasing it. It is what it is, folks. It speaks of the time it was written, and I think it's important to hear what it's saying. Changing the words or images we don't like seems like censorship all dressed up as political correctness.

9. A few years ago there were rumblings that HarperCollins might hire writers to add on to the Chronicles, possibly requring that the stories have less religious subtext. What do you think of this idea?

I think it's a terrible idea. I remember hearing that Margaret Mitchell was begged to write a sequel to Gone With the Wind and refused, saying that the story ended there. If the original creator of the story thinks it ended, leave it alone. As for sanitizing them, see above answer.

10. So what IS the proper order for reading the books? Publication order or internal chronology?

Publication order. If you read the Magician's Nephew before TLtWatW, you lose all the wonder that comes with figuring out what really is going on. I nearly had a coronary the first time I saw a boxed set that didn't have TLtWatW as book one. What IS this world coming to?

[SkeptiJess]

1. When did you first read the Chronicles, and what prompted you to do so? Were you introduced by a parent, a teacher, the 70s' animated cartoon, the recent movie, or something else?

I first read The Lion, the Witch, & the Wardrobe when I was in the 4th grade (in 1968 or '69). The library at my elementary school didn't have any of the books (it was really, really small)l. However, I spent 4th grade at a different school (my dad's ship was in the shipyard for repairs and we moved from San Diego to the Bay Area to be with him for that 9 months). That library was larger, but still only had TLTW&TW. I picked the book out myself by my usual method of slowly scanning all the books on the library shelves until I find something interesting. I didn't realize it was the first of a series until the 5th grade, when I got my first public library card. That was a happy day! I checked the whole series out and read them all in 2 days flat.

2. Do you find the Chronicles' Christian subtext an asset or a defect? If you are a Christian, do you feel the books have assisted you in your spiritual journey? If you are an atheist

I am an atheist now, although I would have identified as a Christian at the time I first read the books. I recognized the subtext from the first read, even at age 8, but I never found it to be intrusive. The books have had nothing to do with my journey away from religion. If we ever do a book discussion on the Pern series, my answer will be different.

3. Which of the books is your favorite, and why? Which is your least favorite, and why?

Favorite: The Voyage of the Dawn Treader. It’s a quest story, which I always like. And I loved Eustace – it’s always fun to read about a brat.
Least favorite: The Horse and His Boy. Because it seemed funny to have the Pevensie children grown up. It's a hard call, though. There are parts I love in every book.

4. Which of the books do you think is best written? If this one is not your favorite, why do you downgrade it?

Another hard call. In terms of writing I would say they are equal, or pretty nearly so.

5. Of the Chronicles' eleven child protagonists--Peter, Susan, Edmund, Lucy, Caspian, Eustace, Jill, Shasta, Aravis, Digory, and Polly--whom do you like best? Whom do you most dislike? Whom do you identify with?

I loved Edmund and Lucy the best -- almost to the point of hero-worship. I identified with Eustace and Jill the most. They were brave and good, but less idealized than the Pevensies. I always suspected that, if I went to Narnia, I would be more like Jill than Lucy! I disliked Aravis the most. She was redeemed at the close of the book, but her redemption came too near the end. Unlike Eustace, I never got the chance to grow to like the 'new and improved' version.

6. Do you think Susan went to hell? If so, does this reduce your enjoyment of the books? If you think she didn't, why not?

Susan didn’t go to hell – she just stayed in England. Narnia’s world ended, but ours didn’t. Susan was a young woman and would, presumably, have had time to come back to Aslan/ Christ before she died.

7. What do you think is the most valid criticism of the books? What is the series' greatest strength?

There is a lot of racism & sexism in these books – that can’t be denied. Girls are very separate from boys and the Calormene culture (which, even in the 5th grade, I recognized as being Middle-Eastern) was very obviously presented as inferior to the Narnian (Western) culture. Sure, there are ‘good’ Calormenes, but they are always presented as exceptions. I see the sexism and racism not so much as flaws that need to be corrected, but as evidence that Lewis was a man of his times. When my own kids read the books, I discussed this with them. However, when I read the books myself, I came to this conclusion on my own – my parents rarely discussed books with me. I was reading at least a book a day at that time – they couldn’t have kept up with me. The series greatest strength, IMO, are the stories themselves, the rich characters, and the way that they blend adventure with humor.

8. Did you like the recent movie, dislike it, or refuse to watch it?

I enjoyed it well enough. It looked good. I didn’t like the changes that were made, specifically the decision to make Peter so reluctant a hero. I agree with QuizCustodet -- the old BBC mini-series script, combined with the new movies improved special effects and superior casting, would have made a much better movie. That said, I'm looking forward to Prince Caspian.

9. A few years ago there were rumblings that HarperCollins might hire writers to add on to the Chronicles, possibly requring that the stories have less religious subtext. What do you think of this idea?

Horrible notion!

10. So what IS the proper order for reading the books? Publication order or internal chronology?

The books must be read in publication order, at least the first time thorough. Reading them in chronological order robs the reader of one of the high points of the series – reading The Magician’s Nephew and learning ‘the rest of the story.’

[kaylasdad99]

1. When did you first read the Chronicles, and what prompted you to do so? Were you introduced by a parent, a teacher, the 70s' animated cartoon, the recent movie, or something else?1972. I took a high school course called "Mysticism in Literature." It was given by a nun with somewhat fuzzy ideas about what constituted mysticism, what constituted literature, and, AFAICT, what constituted teaching. I understand she had left the order by 1980, and have since lost track of her, so I have no idea if she's still teaching.2. Do you find the Chronicles' Christian subtext an asset or a defect? If you are a Christian, do you feel the books have assisted you in your spiritual journey? If you are an atheist,Mostly, I don't notice it, and I'm quite happy about that. During passages where the subtext intrudes itself into my consciousness of the narrative, I find it, uhhh, intrusive.3. Which of the books is your favorite, and why? Which is your least favorite, and why?[b]Favorite: The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe because it represents my introduction to the series. Least favorite: The Last Battle, because of it being such a downer of an ending, as well as because the Narnians were such gullible dolts.[b]4. Which of the books do you think is best written? If this one is not your favorite, why do you downgrade it?No opinion. If I'm noticing how well- or poorly-written a book is, it's at the expense of my attention to (and enjoyment of) the story.5. Of the Chronicles' eleven child protagonists--Peter, Susan, Edmund, Lucy, Caspian, Eustace, Jill, Shasta, Aravis, Digory, and Polly--whom do you like best? Whom do you most dislike? Whom do you identify with?Pass, on like and dislike. I identify most with Shasta. Deep down, I KNOW I was meant to be King. :D6. Do you think Susan went to hell? If so, does this reduce your enjoyment of the books? If you think she didn't, why not?No. Two reasons. First, there's no such place. Second, she wasn't on the train, so she's still alive. :rolleyes: <-- (that's supposed to be a look of innocence, like, "What?" :rolleyes:)7. What do you think is the most valid criticism of the books? What is the series' greatest strength?Lewis doesn't always have the lightest touch when he's adding the spiritual didacticism. Greatest strength is the continuity of characters, and the story arc of the series.8. Did you like the recent movie, dislike it, or refuse to watch it?Watched it with family. Liked it well enough to buy the DVD.9. A few years ago there were rumblings that HarperCollins might hire writers to add on to the Chronicles, possibly requring that the stories have less religious subtext. What do you think of this idea?[b]Terrible idea. If there were a Hell, there would be a special corner of it reserved for people wo come up with and implement ideas like this.[b]10. So what IS the proper order for reading the books? Publication order or internal chronology?Order of writing and publication. Lewis didn't know what he was talking about.

Three previews and the coding still isn't bolding where I think it should be bolding. The heck with it. Here goes nothin'...

[Thudlow Boink]

Philip Pullman opined that Lewis was a big ole meanie for sending Susan to hell. I'd get you the cite, but my books are wwaayy over that way & I have this ring stuck in my nose.There was a big long thread (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=340442&page=1&pp=50) discussing this, and Pullamn's other criticisms of Narnia, a while back that's worth wading through if anyone's really interested.

Now to respond to the OP:

Any one of those questions could spark a whole thread by itself, and some of them have. In particular, I know we've hashed out #10 before, and "published order (with TLtW&tW first)" was the clear winner (as well as my own opinion).

It's been too long since I've read the books to do the OP's questions justice. I do remember The Silver Chair being my favorite, though I don't remember why; maybe something about Prince Rilian's condition resonated with me. And I seem to remember liking The Magician's Nephew more when I re-read the series as an adult than in my initial reading as a kid; its story isn't as interesting as that of some of the other books, but it has some wonderfully rendered scenes.

And I think the series' greatest strength is the character of Aslan. So often when an author tries to put God or Christ or a character that's obviously supposed to respresent God or Christ in a story, it comes off really lame or stupid or pretentious or unconvincing (if not downright blasphemous). Lewis is one of the few who actually pulls off the trick of writing a Christ-character who actually invokes a feeling of awe, love, and respect in the reader, and there are several places in the Chronicles where an Aslan appearance gave me a lump in my throat.

Oh, and as for #9 (about other writers adding to the Chronicles), if that actually happened I think there's about a 5% chance that someone really in sympathy with Lewis would produce worthwhile additions to the series, a 15% chance that someone would write some mildly entertaining tales that, while not nearly coming up the level of Lewis's, wouldn't detract from the series, a 40% chance that we'd get something that would quickly fade into oblivion and we could pretend it never existed, and a 40% chance that it would turn out to be a horrible abomination.

[Chronos]

Also, I was not real crazy about the portrayal of the little Narnia-clique & the double contempt: their contempt for Susan's contempt for them. And really, what's wrong with lipstick & boys?!Nothing. There's a very common misconception that Aslan rejected Susan. He didn't: I think it's a very important point in the series that Aslan never rejects anyone. Susan rejected Aslan. The problem wasn't the lipstick and nylons, the problem was that Susan allowed such trivialities to distract her from what was truly important.

On to my take on the questions:
1. When did you first read the Chronicles, and what prompted you to do so? Were you introduced by a parent, a teacher, the 70s' animated cartoon, the recent movie, or something else?

I suppose I would have been about five when I first read them myself, since that's about the age when I learned to read. But I think I had The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe memorized at age three, from my mom reading them to us (Dad thought they were evil, but fortunately Mom didn't care what he thought on the subject).

2. Do you find the Chronicles' Christian subtext an asset or a defect? If you are a Christian, do you feel the books have assisted you in your spiritual journey? If you are an atheist, how much does the subtext bother you?

I'm a Christian, and I picked up on the religious content very quickly. And I don't think you can really separate out the subtext from the books: Take away the religious context, and you'd end up dragging everything else along with it.

3. Which of the books is your favorite, and why? Which is your least favorite, and why?

My favorite is probably Voyage of the Dawn Treader. Like many others have said, it's a great adventure. My least favorite is definitely The Last Battle: I don't mind the world coming to an end, but the general style of the book just seems to fall flat, compared to the others (but even at that, there's a few beautiful scenes in it).

4. Which of the books do you think is best written? If this one is not your favorite, why do you downgrade it?

Having re-read them as an adult, I'd have to say The Horse and his Boy. The philosophy is very subtly and deftly woven through the story, so subtly that I didn't even begin to notice it as a kid. I get goosebumps now from the exchange "'Who are you?' 'Myself.' 'Myself.' 'Myself.'".

5. Of the Chronicles' eleven child protagonists--Peter, Susan, Edmund, Lucy, Caspian, Eustace, Jill, Shasta, Aravis, Digory, and Polly--whom do you like best? Whom do you most dislike? Whom do you identify with?

My favorite is Lucy, with her simplicity and purity. I have an easier time identifying with the boys, though, and I'd have to say probably Peter, specifically.

6. Do you think Susan went to hell? If so, does this reduce your enjoyment of the books? If you think she didn't, why not?

All we know is that, at the time of The Last Battle, Susan was not accepting of Aslan. I'd like to think that she matured out of her faux maturity. As Lewis once said, "Now I am a man, and have outgrown childish things -- Including the fear of being thought childish". Perhaps as Susan truly became an adult, she gained better perspective, and eventually came back to God (by whatever name).

7. What do you think is the most valid criticism of the books? What is the series' greatest strength?With as much as I love these books, I don't think I can answer either of those questions fairly.

8. Did you like the recent movie, dislike it, or refuse to watch it?

Given a choice between a good book and a good movie, I'll almost always prefer the book. But I thought it was a good movie, and I'm looking forward to more.

9. A few years ago there were rumblings that HarperCollins might hire writers to add on to the Chronicles, possibly requring that the stories have less religious subtext. What do you think of this idea?It's silly. Clearly what made the books so good was what Lewis put into them, and even if they get another writer as good as Lewis, that writer would better spend his time creating his own world. If they ever do such a thing, I won't take part in the violence others suggest, but just quietly ignore them.

10. So what IS the proper order for reading the books? Publication order or internal chronology?It's my opinion that all series, of books, movies, songs, or any other medium, should be approached in the order in which they were first presented. A later work in a series is created with the expectation that the audience is already familiar with the others, even if it occurs chronologically before the others.

[Skammer]

I've already posted my answers, but I wanted to comment on The Last Battle. It isn't my favorite of the seven by any means, but I don't have the disdain for it that a lot of fans do. I do remember being terribly frustrated by the stupid Narnians while reading it for the first time. And when the heroes started dying, I had to re-read the page over and over because I couldn't believe it. I was young and shocked that the bad guys seemed to be winning (until the very end, of course).

[Malacandra]

1. When did you first read the Chronicles, and what prompted you to do so? Were you introduced by a parent, a teacher, the 70s' animated cartoon, the recent movie, or something else?

In my first year at Big School :) my class had a sort of mutual lending library to which someone contributed LWW and gave a brief book review. (My contribution was the less cerebral The Art of Coarse Sailing by Michael Green.) But I didn't read the book for a couple more years. My eldest sister, who did a year at teacher-training college before she got pregnant and dropped out, had volumes 1-3 about the place and I eventually picked up Dawn Treader and read it. That was just down to reading everything in sight. I liked it a lot even though I had to struggle a bit for the context, but I soon borrowed LWW and Prince Caspian. I'm fairly sure she also had The Magician's Nephew; the other three I had to wait a while to borrow.

2. Do you find the Chronicles' Christian subtext an asset or a defect? If you are a Christian, do you feel the books have assisted you in your spiritual journey? If you are an atheist,

It wasn't apparent at first sight in DT, although looking back I now wonder how I ever missed it. But as spiritual influences go, I find them a drop in the ocean, albeit a very welcome drop. As you might guess, I find the Space Trilogy slightly more grown-up Xi-fi, and I also like The Great Divorce and, of course, The Screwtape Letters.

3. Which of the books is your favorite, and why? Which is your least favorite, and why?

That would be a toss-up between LWW and DT, the latter simply because you never forget your first love (and it's a very agreeable here-be-dragons travelogue) and the former because it was Lewis's first and freshest cut at his new world, although he struggles a little to retcon it with Teh Magician's Nephew. Least favourite is probably The Silver Chair which just doesn't seem to roll along quite as readily as the others - and yet it's not glaringly worse.

4. Which of the books do you think is best written? If this one is not your favorite, why do you downgrade it?

I think DT - right from the opening line. ("There was a boy named Eustace Clarence Scrubb, and he almost deserved it.") Very episodic with no particular plot, but beautifully drawn.

5. Of the Chronicles' eleven child protagonists--Peter, Susan, Edmund, Lucy, Caspian, Eustace, Jill, Shasta, Aravis, Digory, and Polly--whom do you like best? Whom do you most dislike? Whom do you identify with?

I like them all and dislike none. Some have more growing-up to do than others - Peter seems to be inherently brave, honourable and honest throughout and Lucy is a byword for childlike trust, whereas both Edmund and Eustace begin their stories with severe character flaws - but on the whole most of them manage it, with one notable exception to be discussed shortly. As to identifying, as a youngster I was so much like the pre-dragon Eustace it was scary.

6. Do you think Susan went to hell? If so, does this reduce your enjoyment of the books? If you think she didn't, why not?

Not necessarily, and no, in that order. I explained why in the thread someone earlier linked to, but to recap briefly, Susan was alive and well in shadow-England after the events in The Last Battle, with an entire lifetime ahead of her in which to turn to Christ. She might do so sooner or later; everyone and his brother has written a fan-fic on this theme, including me. Or she might never - and since I've still only heard about The Problem of Susan at second hand, I'm unsure what Gaiman's angle actually is.

7. What do you think is the most valid criticism of the books? What is the series' greatest strength?

Those who prefer their children's fiction to have no Christian content at all - or, better yet, a thoroughly anti-Christian content that owes a lot to Gnosticism - might find them preachy. The continuity wobbles a bit from time to time and it's unclear what everyone manages to live on during the hundred years' winter. On the whole I don't think they do badly next to the average fairy story aimed at children. And their strength is the sense of innocent wonder that pervades them all, with some exceptions obviously - such as the latter part of LB, where it becomes apparent that there's not going to be any deus ex machina to sort everything out, and everyone will die horribly and the world come to an end... but the close of the story thoroughly compensates, I mean, when I turned the page and saw the illustration of the walled garden with a familiar-looking Talking Mouse waiting to welcome the newcomers, I remember I exclaimed out loud.

8. Did you like the recent movie, dislike it, or refuse to watch it?

It was good. It added a lot that was not there in the book, but - crucially - it did not toss out large chunks of important stuff to make room for it, and you can't blame the filmmakers for seizing the opportunity to throw in a really rousing fantasy battle sequence that's largely glossed over in the books. The execution of Aslan was spot-on - the only thing missing was the girls' fearful question on finding the Stone Table empty: "Is it more magic?" and Aslan's triumphant re-entry line. And the childrens' uncertainty over whether to make Narnia's woes their own was quite justifiable, IMO, and better done than all the angsty stuff in The Two Towers, to pull another film out of the ether quite at random.

9. A few years ago there were rumblings that HarperCollins might hire writers to add on to the Chronicles, possibly requring that the stories have less religious subtext. What do you think of this idea?

The part about the "less religious subtext" was contemptible and would be an utter betrayal of the original author. Either make up your own fantasy setting or stay true to the author's vision! But something by a gifted writer sympathetic to Lewis wouldn't be out of the question, and I'd take a guarded look at it. There are any number of ways it could go wrong, though.

10. So what IS the proper order for reading the books? Publication order or internal chronology?

Publication, natch. Who thinks anyone should start watching Star Wars by beginning with The Phantom Menace? Not that The Magician's Nephew deserves to be bracketed with that. But if you start reading LWW when you know what the lamp-post is doing there and who Jadis is and what this fantasy land is all about, the sense of wonder diminishes. Better to let Lewis lead you into the world much as he began exploring it himself, and let MN stand as a prequel and The Horse and His Boy serve as back-fill.

[Lissla Lissar]

1. When did you first read the Chronicles, and what prompted you to do so? Were you introduced by a parent, a teacher, the 70s' animated cartoon, the recent movie, or something else?

My mother read me TLtwatW when I was five or six. I think I read The Magician's Nephew next, and on my own. I have no clear memory of what order I read the rest of them in. The Place Between the Worlds creeped me out when I was a child.

2. Do you find the Chronicles' Christian subtext an asset or a defect? If you are a Christian, do you feel the books have assisted you in your spiritual journey?

I found it an asset. The scene of Aslan's resurrection was my first introduction to understanding Christ's resurrection emotionally.

3. Which of the books is your favorite, and why? Which is your least favorite, and why?

Probably TLtWatW and The Last Battle. The first because it's the gateway to Narnia, and the last because I profoundly hoped (and hope) to go to Aslan's country when I die, and I loved the description of the heroic battle in front of the shed, and Emeth the Calormene. The end scene reminds me strongly of the end scenes in Lilith and Peace Like A River. Good apocalypse. The Horse and His Boy is my least favourite. Seems unecessary.

4. Which of the books do you think is best written? If this one is not your favorite, why do you downgrade it?

Huh. I have never thought of any of them in terms of writing. They are a bit cutesy in spots.

5. Of the Chronicles' eleven child protagonists--Peter, Susan, Edmund, Lucy, Caspian, Eustace, Jill, Shasta, Aravis, Digory, and Polly--whom do you like best? Whom do you most dislike? Whom do you identify with?

I liked Edmund, Lucy, and Eustace best. I thought the Polly and Jill were pretty useless. I think I most identify with Puddleglum.

6. Do you think Susan went to hell? If so, does this reduce your enjoyment of the books? If you think she didn't, why not?

I think she did. Am I the only one? It doesn't reduce my enjoyment of the books, because she had clearly chosen Hell (echoes of The Great Divorce). It made me sad, but it confirmed the reality of choice and action to me- you can deliberately choose something less good- in Susan's case, to pretend that Narnia wasn't real and didn't matter.

7. What do you think is the most valid criticism of the books? What is the series' greatest strength?

I suppose the racism. The sexism doesn't bother me. I think its greatest strength is... cripes, I'm not sure. The appeal that finding a magical world has? Talking animals? Probably the beauty of the stories.

8. Did you like the recent movie, dislike it, or refuse to watch it?

Meh. It was okay. I agree with whomever said that everyone's reluctance to fight for Narnia weakened it. I did love the Beavers, and I disliked the portrayal of the White Witch. Edmund was good, though.

9. A few years ago there were rumblings that HarperCollins might hire writers to add on to the Chronicles, possibly requring that the stories have less religious subtext. What do you think of this idea?

They will be killed, and their bodies eaten by enormous centipedes.

10. So what IS the proper order for reading the books? Publication order or internal chronology?
The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe
Prince Caspian
The Voyage of the Dawn Treader
The Horse and His Boy
The Silver Chair
The Last Battle

[Dung Beetle]

10. So what IS the proper order for reading the books? Publication order or internal chronology?
The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe
Prince Caspian
The Voyage of the Dawn Treader
The Horse and His Boy
The Silver ChairThe Magician's Nephew
[I]The Last Battle


You must face your fear of the Place Between the Worlds, Lissa! :D

[Dung Beetle]

:smack: And I shall face my fear of screwing up Lissla's name.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Who thinks anyone should start watching Star Wars by beginning with The Phantom Menace?


George Lucas?

[Malacandra]

George Lucas?

Sorry, let me rephrase: What sane, intelligent individual...

@Lissla Lissar: I agree that Susan would slot effortlessly into The Great Divorce. Also into that level of Dante's Inferno (or Niven's!) where the vain and foolish are forever trying to ride the whirlwind, or whatever it is. But I think there was time enough for Susan to have a change of heart - and that, possibly, losing her entire family in an accident might have been enough of an ass-kicking to make it happen.

[Lissla Lissar]

Right. The Magician's Nephew should come right after Prince Caspian.

Everyone calls me Lissa. It must screw up the real Lissa if she does vanity searches. It's too bad.


Skald, you're definitely going to get eaten.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Right. The Magician's Nephew should come right after Prince Caspian.

Everyone calls me Lissa. It must screw up the real Lissa if she does vanity searches. It's too bad.


Skald, you're definitely going to get eaten.

Au contraire. It was Aslan, after all, who invented humor. (Well, him and the Jackdaw.) He knows who loves him.

Also I am bringing pie to distract with him, just in case. Lions love pie.

[Excalibre]

I just recently bought and reread the entire series after seeing the film; I was surprised how poorly they've aged as I grew up. I really liked them as a child - well, some of them, anyway - so it was sort of disappointing to see how lacking they felt, particularly compared to this decade's children's fantasy septet. I still enjoyed reading some of the books, but they seem depressingly simple and awfully lectury compared to other children's books I've reread since childhood.


1. When did you first read the Chronicles, and what prompted you to do so? Were you introduced by a parent, a teacher, the 70s' animated cartoon, the recent movie, or something else?
I'm guessing I was probably eightish; no idea why I read them. They must have been suggested to me.


2. Do you find the Chronicles' Christian subtext an asset or a defect? If you are a Christian, do you feel the books have assisted you in your spiritual journey? If you are an atheist, how much does the subtext bother you?
What about the people in neither category?

I'm an atheist, and generally, the books are definitely the worse for their Christian leanings. The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe being the exception - it's a pretty powerful rendition of the story of the crucifixion and resurrection. But the Christian elements to the other stories generally detracted from them, in my opinion - particularly The Last Battle, which was a hamhanded attempt at making a kiddy-friendly version of the apocalypse but simply failed as a story. Plus I have to say that his refusal to truly deal with Susan and the consequences of Christian belief - that is, to show her going to Hell (if you protest that she doesn't, then the story ends up a little sanitized, doesn't it? Hell exists, but no one the Pevensies know will end up there? That's a little bit easy.) - makes the stories seem much shallower and really bereft of much spiritual significance.


3. Which of the books is your favorite, and why? Which is your least favorite, and why?
The Voyage of the Dawn Treader is probably my favorite - it's simply an interesting story. Least favorite would be a three-way tie between Prince Caspian (which had no noticeable plot, besides Aslan Comes and Saves the Day), The Silver Chair (the plot was way too by-the-numbers), and The Last Battle, (which simply sucked). Prince Caspian and The Silver Chair also had a bit too much musing on "faith" for my enjoyment, particularly since Lewis wasn't able to come up with any deeper meaning for it than "God likes fucking around with you by setting up arbitrary, pointless tests, and even when you're doing His work by going on a mission for Him, He's not gonna be much help.")


4. Which of the books do you think is best written? If this one is not your favorite, why do you downgrade it?
I think that purely story-wise, The Horse and his Boy is the best thing in the series - but the somewhat racial overtones of the relation between the Calormenes and the Narnians and Archenlanders are somewhat upsetting. The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe works very well as a fantasy story too, particularly with the moving interpretation of Jesus' sacrifice.


5. Of the Chronicles' eleven child protagonists--Peter, Susan, Edmund, Lucy, Caspian, Eustace, Jill, Shasta, Aravis, Digory, and Polly--whom do you like best? Whom do you most dislike? Whom do you identify with?
Uck, none of them. That's the biggest flaw I've noticed on rereading the series - the children don't really have any personalities. There's no character there, just sort of strained attempts at depicting various virtues and vices. There's just very little to the children's characters that isn't part of the various annoyingly didactic morals the books try to impart.


6. Do you think Susan went to hell? If so, does this reduce your enjoyment of the books? If you think she didn't, why not?
It's not clear. The refusal to say what happened demonstrates Lewis's inability to deal with the fundamental problem of Christianity - that is, how a just, loving God can send people to eternal punishment for not believing in Him. I guess it's a disappointment that Lewis - who has quite a reputation as a Christian thinker - is no more able to deal with this problem than anyone else.


7. What do you think is the most valid criticism of the books?
There's a lot, and I was really surprised and disappointed to discover that. I really treasured these books as a child (the ones I remember reading, anyway. I know I read all seven, but four of them I must have read once, quickly, and discarded, because I didn't remember them at all when I reread them recently.) Unlike a lot of other children's books that I enjoyed as a kid, these simply haven't aged well with me. The writing style is at times obnoxiously precious - with his constant asides to the reader - and the characters and plots just don't have much to them.


What is the series' greatest strength?
The world Lewis created was fascinating; I found myself quite taken with the history and geography of Narnia (and the other lands of the world). Much moreso than with the damn children.


8. Did you like the recent movie, dislike it, or refuse to watch it?
Loved it. It was actually way closer to how I remember the book than the book itself is. :) It was also very beautifully filmed; the battle sequence with the White Witch was simply amazing. But mostly, the movie captured the main theme of the book - the whole Jesus dealie - without the didacticism of the book.


9. A few years ago there were rumblings that HarperCollins might hire writers to add on to the Chronicles, possibly requring that the stories have less religious subtext. What do you think of this idea?
Uck. Franchise children's literature rots their little brains.


10. So what IS the proper order for reading the books? Publication order or internal chronology?
Publication order, of course. The story he told was non-linear, and it works that way. Why would changing the order around improve it any?

[Skald the Rhymer]

Publication order, of course. The story he told was non-linear, and it works that way. Why would changing the order around improve it any?

It helped HarperCollins makes money. Which is why I once I am god-king of Earth I shall...

Nah, I'm tired of that bit too.

::tossing world conquest references into the dust bin along with slamming ROTK::

[Thudlow Boink]

It's not clear. The refusal to say what happened demonstrates Lewis's inability to deal with the fundamental problem of Christianity - that is, how a just, loving God can send people to eternal punishment for not believing in Him. I guess it's a disappointment that Lewis - who has quite a reputation as a Christian thinker - is no more able to deal with this problem than anyone else.Have you read The Great Divorce? Lewis's major attempt to deal with this problem is there, not in the Narnia books.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Have you read The Great Divorce? Lewis's major attempt to deal with this problem is there, not in the Narnia books.

What Thudlow Boink said. Also, I think it was structurally impossible for Lewis to deal definitively with what happens to Susan's soul in The Last Battle (I know she didn't die in the railway accident, but bear with me) because of the constraints of his universe. Aslan is not going to explain it to anyway; that would be "telling someone else's story," which the great lion does not do.

[Clothahump]

I didn't read the books until shortly before the movie came out.

I wasn't all that impressed by them. His writing style wasn't all that hot and the theological bullshit turned me off cold. I went to see the movie and was reasonably impressed by it technically, but still turned off by the theological bullshit.

[Shodan]

1. When did you first read the Chronicles, and what prompted you to do so? Were you introduced by a parent, a teacher, the 70s' animated cartoon, the recent movie, or something else?

A girlfriend gave the set to me as a sixteenth birthday present. I never read them until three years later. I was bored after lunch, and picked up The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe.

I finished The Last Battle sometime around midnight.

2. Do you find the Chronicles' Christian subtext an asset or a defect? If you are a Christian, do you feel the books have assisted you in your spiritual journey? If you are an atheist, ?

I am a Christian. It is an asset, since it is what makes it something more than bubble gum for the mind.

C.S.Lewis' other writings have been more influential, but I probably enjoyed Narnia more. For enjoyable and influential, The Screwtape Letters is better, but Narnia is second.

3. Which of the books is your favorite, and why? Which is your least favorite, and why??

Favorite is The Horse and His Boy. For the diversity of the characters, and the excitement of Lewis' handling of the Lost Prince theme.

All the others are tied for second. ;)

4. Which of the books do you think is best written? If this one is not your favorite, why do you downgrade it??

Same answer.

5. Of the Chronicles' eleven child protagonists--Peter, Susan, Edmund, Lucy, Caspian, Eustace, Jill, Shasta, Aravis, Digory, and Polly--whom do you like best? Whom do you most dislike? Whom do you identify with?
?

Jill, for some reason, is my favorite character. There is a very interesting scene in The Last Battle where Jill is falling in love with Jewel the unicorn. I thought that was as close as Lewis was going to come to the sexual awakening of any of his child characters.

But Jill is brave, adventurous, determined, and willing to try to obey the Lion. What more do you want?

Puddleglum the Marsh-wiggle is my favorite of any of the Narnian characters.

Edmund is probably my least favorite child Narnian. After his repentence, he doesn't seem to have much to distinguish him from the others. The only characteristic scene, and something I would have liked to see Lewis develop, is that Edmund is the first one to believe Lucy really say Aslan in Prince Caspian, because he learned to trust Lucy from his repentence in the first book. If he really was King Edmund the Wise, there could have been more examples of this.

6. Do you think Susan went to hell? If so, does this reduce your enjoyment of the books? If you think she didn't, why not??

Well, yes, in the context of the books. She was no longer a "Friend of Narnia". Whether or not she actually does, no one knows, but as a literary device to show that there are consequences to faith or its loss, yes, she doesn't die on the train and therefore does not go "further up and further in" with the rest of them.

It adds very much of a bittersweet tang to the story. It is sort of like (forgive the analogy) like the death of the woman protagonist in Psycho - a judicious use of a violation of the unspoken assumptions of the audience, that a really important character can't die.

But they can. Death and loss are real.

7. What do you think is the most valid criticism of the books? What is the series' greatest strength??

A good deal of sexism, as has been mentioned. Some of the characters are flat and stock. I thought some of The Dawn Treader dragged in spots.

The strength of the series is the power of the Christian imaginination, in the hands of a great writer. Great children's literature is as good as any great literature, and both harder to do and rarer. Worse luck.

8. Did you like the recent movie, dislike it, or refuse to watch it??

Liked it, didn't love it.

Nothing could live up to my imagination, but they did a credible job. We own it on DVD.

9. A few years ago there were rumblings that HarperCollins might hire writers to add on to the Chronicles, possibly requring that the stories have less religious subtext. What do you think of this idea??

If they attempt to rework the series to change its central focus, I am reminded again of why I support the death penalty.

I recently read Mr. Darcy Takes a Wife, a "sequel" to Pride and Prejudice. It wasn't bad, but it certainly wasn't much like PaP. Same here - I can't believe they could find a writer who wouldn't f- it up.

10. So what IS the proper order for reading the books? Publication order or internal chronology?
Publication order.

Regards,
Shodan

[SkeptiJess]

If he really was King Edmund the Wise, there could have been more examples of this. Actually, he was King Edmund the Just, and there were examples in the books. His empathy for Eustace in The Voyage of The Dawn Treader was one; for another, he called for justice for Rabadash in The Horse & His Boy. There may be more -- this is from memory and it's been a year or so since I last reread the series.

[LVBoPeep]

1. When did you first read the Chronicles, and what prompted you to do so? Were you introduced by a parent, a teacher, the 70s' animated cartoon, the recent movie, or something else?

I believe I read them around 3rd grade, it was the year I discovered books in general. I think I got the set for one of my birthdays. My family was very religious at the time (before my parents divorced and my mother and sister both came out LOL) and my parents read alot of C.S Lewis.

2. Do you find the Chronicles' Christian subtext an asset or a defect? If you are a Christian, do you feel the books have assisted you in your spiritual journey? If you are an atheist,
>>

I found it to be a great asset. They are probably the last vestige of Christianity I hold on to. Although TLB is probably my least favorite, it has my favorite scene - the part where the Calormene soldier who was devoted to Tash was still welcomed by Aslan. That made a HUGE impression on me when I was very young and in an environment where I could easily become very self-righteous/evangelical.

3. Which of the books is your favorite, and why? Which is your least favorite, and why?>>

I can't pick one- I have to go with both The Voyage of the Dawn Treader and The Horse and His Boy . VDT wins hands down because of Reepicheep and THHB wins because it has not just one, but two wonderful talking horses (I was very horse crazy as a youngster).

My least favorite is The Last Battle for many of the same reasons written here.

4. Which of the books do you think is best written? If this one is not your favorite, why do you downgrade it?>>

I think LWW is the best written, it moves well and just the introduction to that world was very well done and intriguing. It is not my favorite though and I think that is because my favorite mouse is not there :).



5. Of the Chronicles' eleven child protagonists--Peter, Susan, Edmund, Lucy, Caspian, Eustace, Jill, Shasta, Aravis, Digory, and Polly--whom do you like best? Whom do you most dislike? Whom do you identify with?>>

Eustace and Jill Pole are my favorites- Eustace peeling off the dragon skin and Jill "making love" to the giants are scenes that stand out to me.

6. Do you think Susan went to hell? If so, does this reduce your enjoyment of the books? If you think she didn't, why not?>>

No, I think her story is still not over (even now it is somewhat possible she still lives and has the chance to accept Aslan/Christ)

7. What do you think is the most valid criticism of the books? What is the series' greatest strength?>>

Personally, I don't buy the the sexism and racism charges. I think any good story is told from the viewpoint of those who are acting in it. I don't believe we can expect the author or the characters to act outside their times. I think that is part of what makes literature so rewarding, to get an inside view of differing characters, cultures and times. In my opinion, their greatest strength is simply the stories and characters. They still interest me some 25 years or so after I read them for the first time.

8. Did you like the recent movie, dislike it, or refuse to watch it?-[/B]

I liked the battle scene and while the White Witch wasn't what I imagined, she was amazing. I hope they make it to VDT though, I also am afraid of how well Prince Caspian will hold up for film.

9. A few years ago there were rumblings that HarperCollins might hire writers to add on to the Chronicles, possibly requring that the stories have less religious subtext. What do you think of this idea?>>

I wish I could forget you told me this could happen :eek: .

10. So what IS the proper order for reading the books? Publication order or internal chronology?>>

Publication order (duh!). I recently loaned a friend my new copy of the books all combined in one- I had to re-number the order in which she read them.
__________________

[Skald the Rhymer]

I didn't read the books until shortly before the movie came out.

I wasn't all that impressed by them. His writing style wasn't all that hot and the theological bullshit turned me off cold. I went to see the movie and was reasonably impressed by it technically, but still turned off by the theological bullshit.

I get the sense that you felt the Christian subtext--the theology, one might say -- was the solid waste of a bovine animal. Izzat so?

Ah, well. Your post just reinforces my resolution to stay out of Peter Jackson/ROTK discussions.

[dangermom]

Well, I'm a bit late, but what the heck.

1. When did you first read the Chronicles, and what prompted you to do so? Were you introduced by a parent, a teacher, the 70s' animated cartoon, the recent movie, or something else?

My mom is a Lewis fiend of the first order, so I don't remember when I first read them. Probably around age 6 or 8. I don't remember a cartoon, unless you mean that awful movie made in the 80's with the vile whinging Lucy and the animated special effects?

2. Do you find the Chronicles' Christian subtext an asset or a defect? If you are a Christian, do you feel the books have assisted you in your spiritual journey?

Being a somewhat obtuse child, I never noticed the Christian message and had it pointed out to me in college. I would say that many of Lewis' books have made a collective deep impression on me; he's a favorite of mine. (I am a devout religous person, in case that wasn't clear.)

3. Which of the books is your favorite, and why? Which is your least favorite, and why?

I have an awful time picking favorites. I like all of them, even TLB. I have favorite scenes in all.

4. Which of the books do you think is best written? If this one is not your favorite, why do you downgrade it?

I'd have to reread them all and then tell you.

5. Of the Chronicles' eleven child protagonists--Peter, Susan, Edmund, Lucy, Caspian, Eustace, Jill, Shasta, Aravis, Digory, and Polly--whom do you like best? Whom do you most dislike? Whom do you identify with?

I always liked Jill's survival skills and common sense. Again, I have favorite bits of all of them.

6. Do you think Susan went to hell? If so, does this reduce your enjoyment of the books? If you think she didn't, why not?

Susan isn't dead yet. She has plenty of time to change her mind, or not. Lewis never said she went to hell, or even implied it IMO--it's an open question, as it is for all of us.

7. What do you think is the most valid criticism of the books? What is the series' greatest strength?

Strength: its joyfulness. Criticism: I don't know. I disagree with many of them, and have one or two of my own.

8. Did you like the recent movie, dislike it, or refuse to watch it?

Liked it. Problems: the Hollywood "we have to have the river fall apart and everyone escape death with lots of CGI" scene, and the tree nymphs. Loved almost everything else, though of course it doesn't measure up to the books--what movie does? (I'm hoping to make my little girls be Susan and Lucy for Halloween--anyone know of a good pattern?)

9. A few years ago there were rumblings that HarperCollins might hire writers to add on to the Chronicles, possibly requring that the stories have less religious subtext. What do you think of this idea?

Argh, the horror!

10. So what IS the proper order for reading the books? Publication order or internal chronology?

Publication, of course. One of the great joys of life is reading The magician's nephew for the first time and having the pieces fall into place.

[Skald the Rhymer]

C.S.Lewis' other writings have been more influential, but I probably enjoyed Narnia more. For enjoyable and influential, The Screwtape Letters is better, but Narnia is second.
Regards,
Shodan

Shodan, have you read Till We Have Faces, otherwise known as Eustace's Story Arc from "Dawn Treader" for Grown-ups? It's also excellent.

[MaddyStrut]

1. When did you first read the Chronicles, and what prompted you to do so? Were you introduced by a parent, a teacher, the 70s' animated cartoon, the recent movie, or something else?
I can't really remember with much certainty. I have a vague recollection of discussing them with a librarian. I know I asked her for the later books. I just can't recall if she recommended the first one or not. I know I'd read them all by 3rd grade and I was the first of my friends to have read any of them.

2. Do you find the Chronicles' Christian subtext an asset or a defect? If you are a Christian, do you feel the books have assisted you in your spiritual journey? If you are an atheist, how much does the subtext bother you?
I'm a Christian. However, I didn't get the subtext till it was spelled out to me. Even when a Sunday School teacher was prompting us with questions like "what does Aslan's sacrifice remind you of? Where have you heard of something like this?" I still didn't get it. I find it an asset. It's a layer underneath a fun story.

3. Which of the books is your favorite, and why? Which is your least favorite, and why?
LWW is my favorite, probably because it was the first one I read. Nothing beats that first experience of wonder at what I'd found. THHB is second, but only because I was nutty about horses.

4. Which of the books do you think is best written? If this one is not your favorite, why do you downgrade it?
It's been a while since I've read them. DT is probably the best from what I can recall. I downgraded it for reasons mentioned in #3.

5. Of the Chronicles' eleven child protagonists--Peter, Susan, Edmund, Lucy, Caspian, Eustace, Jill, Shasta, Aravis, Digory, and Polly--whom do you like best? Whom do you most dislike? Whom do you identify with?
I liked them all except for Lucy. She was just too perfect, and I sort of resented her for it. I probably identify most with Digory because I would have rung that damned bell too! I remember discussing this in school and I was the only one who understood why he rang that bell. No question. I'd have to ring it!

6. Do you think Susan went to hell? If so, does this reduce your enjoyment of the books? If you think she didn't, why not?
As a kid reading the series, I was sure she was still alive. I didn't think her punishment was hell, just that she didn't get the big reward her siblings did at that time (though no one knows if she did later). I can appreciate the arguments that she did go to hell, but the kid in me who first read the book still insists that didn't happen.

7. What do you think is the most valid criticism of the books? What is the series' greatest strength?
I agree that the books can be a bit heavy handed. I never noticed it as a kid, perhaps because kids are used to getting lectured. However, as an adult, I can see how that would get annoying. The biggest strength is the incredible world Lewis created. I had a map of Narnia and the surrounding countries on my wall. I'd draw characters from the book (not the kids--the fun characters) all the time.

8. Did you like the recent movie, dislike it, or refuse to watch it?
I liked it. I was warned that I would hate it, so I went in with low expectations. I was pleasantly surprised. I think if I had gone in expecting to love it, I'd have been disapointed.

9. A few years ago there were rumblings that HarperCollins might hire writers to add on to the Chronicles, possibly requring that the stories have less religious subtext. What do you think of this idea?
That's just stupid. The books are what they are. Taking the subtext out would make them something other than the author intended.

10. So what IS the proper order for reading the books? Publication order or internal chronology?
Publication order. No doubt about it.

[Shodan]

Shodan, have you read Till We Have Faces, otherwise known as Eustace's Story Arc from "Dawn Treader" for Grown-ups? It's also excellent.
I have, but only once and not closely enough for any kind of analysis. Frankly, I didn't care much for it, but I didn't much like That Hideous Strength either, until I reread it.

Regards,
Shodan

[DrDeth]

1. When did you first read the Chronicles, and what prompted you to do so? Were you introduced by a parent, a teacher, the 70s' animated cartoon, the recent movie, or something else? Librarian, I was reading a LOT.

2. Do you find the Chronicles' Christian subtext an asset or a defect? If you are a Christian, do you feel the books have assisted you in your spiritual journey? If you are an atheist, Didn't notice it until pointed out. It's rather subtle, if really there at all.

3. Which of the books is your favorite, and why? Which is your least favorite, and why? Voyage

4. Which of the books do you think is best written? If this one is not your favorite, why do you downgrade it? Voyage

6. Do you think Susan went to hell? If so, does this reduce your enjoyment of the books? If you think she didn't, why not? "Once a King or Queen of Narnai, always a King or Queen of Narnia." Aslan always keeps his promises. It's just that Susan hadn't died yet.

7. What do you think is the most valid criticism of the books? What is the series' greatest strength? None. They are books that children love to read, and that an adult can get get reading pleasue from. That makes then great.

8. Did you like the recent movie, dislike it, or refuse to watch it? It was pretty damn good.

9. A few years ago there were rumblings that HarperCollins might hire writers to add on to the Chronicles, possibly requring that the stories have less religious subtext. What do you think of this idea? No thanks. There was a "pick your own adventure" book out, and sure there could be more stuff along those lines.

10. So what IS the proper order for reading the books? Publication order or internal chronology?[/B] Both.

[Carlyjay]

1. When did you first read the Chronicles, and what prompted you to do so? Were you introduced by a parent, a teacher, the 70s' animated cartoon, the recent movie, or something else?
17 years old, doing a book study for grade 12 English.

2. Do you find the Chronicles' Christian subtext an asset or a defect? If you are a Christian, do you feel the books have assisted you in your spiritual journey? If you are an atheist,
I was going to a Catholic school at the time, and I had lapsed into atheism. These books brought me back to Christianity, though not Catholicism. That being said, I don't see why they can't be enjoyed without all the fuss about the Christian subtext. They're beautiful, well-written stories, and I'm sure someone with minimal or no knowledge of Christianity would love them just the same.

3. Which of the books is your favorite, and why? Which is your least favorite, and why?Favourite is of course Lion, Witch & Wardrobe. It is the most magical of the three, and I love Aslan best in it. Least favourite is likely The Last Battle, only because it's frustrating and sad.

4. Which of the books do you think is best written? If this one is not your favorite, why do you downgrade it?
Again, Lion, Witch & Wardrobe. I love it.

5. Of the Chronicles' eleven child protagonists--Peter, Susan, Edmund, Lucy, Caspian, Eustace, Jill, Shasta, Aravis, Digory, and Polly--whom do you like best? Whom do you most dislike? Whom do you identify with?

I most like Peter, just because he's human and makes mistakes, but has a noble heart. Lucy is also likable--she was written to be--but she's too perfect to be my favourite. And of course I dislike Susan most. Doesn't everybody?

6. Do you think Susan went to hell? If so, does this reduce your enjoyment of the books? If you think she didn't, why not?
No. Though I can't remember specifically why one would assume she went to hell at all. I know she grew away from Aslan and Narnia but I can't remember anything apart from that except that she was generally shallow. Christians believe that God forgives, however, and Susan's shallowness isn't a mortal sin, it's just sad.

7. What do you think is the most valid criticism of the books? What is the series' greatest strength?

Can't offer anything re: criticism. As far as strength, it's well written. It's magical. Too many people get all wrapped up in the Christianity of it all without just enjoying the story. They're good stories.

8. Did you like the recent movie, dislike it, or refuse to watch it? I loved it because it was the story I adore. I hated it because it was a poor-quality movie, and many of the monsters looked like Muppets. If we have to put such a classic piece of children's literature on screen, why not use all the budget and CGI that's possible?

9. A few years ago there were rumblings that HarperCollins might hire writers to add on to the Chronicles, possibly requring that the stories have less religious subtext. What do you think of this idea?

It's a horrible idea. It's like some schmuck trying to add on to Lord of the Rings "without all that elfy stuff". It's ridiculous.

10. So what IS the proper order for reading the books? Publication order or internal chronology? I don't think when Lewis wrote L,W&W that he knew he had a seven-book chronicle on his hands, or he likely would have started with Magician's Nephew . I think they should be read in internal chronological order.

[Humble Servant]

Commenting quickly just on the movie (seen twice, with kids), the fake animals were still not ready for the burden. The real ones (the wolves, for instance, were fine). Flaws more obvious at second viewing.

OTOH, Mr. Tumnus' interior was better than I imagined and I wish to have tea there this pm. I'll even eat the sardines.

[FriarTed]

1. When did you first read the Chronicles, and what prompted you to do so? Were you introduced by a parent, a teacher, the 70s' animated cartoon, the recent movie, or something else?

My mid-teens. I had become actively C'tian & CSL's name kept popping up in
various books about my faith so I decided to check him out... Wow!

2. Do you find the Chronicles' Christian subtext an asset or a defect? If you are a Christian, do you feel the books have assisted you in your spiritual journey? If you are an atheist,

ASSET! Yeah, I'm on record as naming CoN as THE greatest contribution to C'tian lit of the 20th century, and I consider CSL one of my patron saints.

3. Which of the books is your favorite, and why? Which is your least favorite, and why?

Faves- tied between LION and BATTLE. Least- HORSE- not a bad book, it's just
not up there with the rest.


4. Which of the books do you think is best written? If this one is not your favorite, why do you downgrade it?

Well, DAWN's opening "boy named Eustace" line is the best opening line ever, but
I'd still go with LION because it's such a grabber for the rest of the series.

5. Of the Chronicles' eleven child protagonists--Peter, Susan, Edmund, Lucy, Caspian, Eustace, Jill, Shasta, Aravis, Digory, and Polly--whom do you like best? Whom do you most dislike? Whom do you identify with?

I don't have an answer for those Qs. Never thought about it. I see too much of pre-Aslan Edmund or Eustace in myself for comfort, but hope to be like Digory/The Prof.

6. Do you think Susan went to hell? If so, does this reduce your enjoyment of the books? If you think she didn't, why not?

Susan COULD go to Hell/the Shadow of Aslan if she refuses Him forever. I've never done the fan-fic route myself, but it's tempting to do a "Susan in Hell"
story to see if I can.

BUT I hope not! She certainly has time to return to Christ/Aslan.

7. What do you think is the most valid criticism of the books? What is the series' greatest strength?

Criticism- I can't deny that the Calmoreans "duskiness" makes me a bit uncomfortable, and would need to be altered for future movies (perhaps
make them like classic-Trek Klingons *G*)

Strength- The Christianity.

8. Did you like the recent movie, dislike it, or refuse to watch it?

Except for the shortness of the reviving the Statues (descent into Hades) scene, I
loved the movie & thought it was a near-perfect adaptation. The Sacrifice scene was perfect in its horror, esp the Witch's TRIUMPH OF THE WILL rally.

9. A few years ago there were rumblings that HarperCollins might hire writers to add on to the Chronicles, possibly requring that the stories have less religious subtext. What do you think of this idea?

I have no problem with high quality sequels. Kathryn Lindskoog had read one by a nun entitlted The Centaur's Caven which she believed dealt with the Susan Q
quite well & did justice to the original books. I do want to read that one day.

IF a well-written Narnia sequel could be done with less "religion", that's OK, but to order up some "let's have more Narnia, less Aslan" books is totally bogus.

10. So what IS the proper order for reading the books? Publication order or internal chronology?

I thank Gresham for his work in maintaining his step-dad's estate, and think his
endorsement of the chronological order will get him only a stay in Purgatory rather than the eternity in Aslan's Shadow that it would otherwise deserve.

PUBLICATION! PUBLICATION! PUBLICATION!

[Shodan]

FriarTed, I believe you are the one who recommended The Christ Clone trilogy as apocalyptic fiction that was not as dreadful as Left Behind. In which case, thanks - I just finished the first book in the series, and it is.


Regards,
Shodan

[Thudlow Boink]

FriarTed, I believe you are the one who recommended The Christ Clone trilogy as apocalyptic fiction that was not as dreadful as Left Behind. In which case, thanks - I just finished the first book in the series, and it is.
It is what—as dreadful as Left Behind?

[Lemur866]

I'm a stone atheist, and I don't understand the objections to the "Christian" subtext of the books. I'm an atheist, I don't believe ANY virtues are specifically Christian ones.

So loyalty, redemption, hope, and such are Christian themes, but they are also human themes, and everything worthwhile about Christianity comes because Christians are human beings. I'd have no trouble reading a book exploring Buddhist virtues, Muslim virtues, animist virtues, Hellenic virtues, Hindu virtues, or Star Fleet virtues, so why would I have a problem with Christian allegory?

Aslan is an appealing character/concept, not because he's Jesus in disguise, but because he's noble, self-sacrificing, fatherly, loving, and just; and the message of Jesus isn't appealing because Jesus is a demigod, but because it is a timeless human message of the above. Christianity doesn't persist because of some farcical aquatic ceremony, some moistened tart lobbing scimitars or whatever--I'm a little foggy on the details--but because it fulfils human needs.

[DrDeth]

I'm a stone atheist, and I don't understand the objections to the "Christian" subtext of the books. I'm an atheist, I don't believe ANY virtues are specifically Christian ones.

So loyalty, redemption, hope, and such are Christian themes, but they are also human themes, and everything worthwhile about Christianity comes because Christians are human beings. I'd have no trouble reading a book exploring Buddhist virtues, Muslim virtues, animist virtues, Hellenic virtues, Hindu virtues, or Star Fleet virtues, so why would I have a problem with Christian allegory?

Aslan is an appealing character/concept, not because he's Jesus in disguise, but because he's noble, self-sacrificing, fatherly, loving, and just; and the message of Jesus isn't appealing because Jesus is a demigod, but because it is a timeless human message of the above. Christianity doesn't persist because of some farcical aquatic ceremony, some moistened tart lobbing scimitars or whatever--I'm a little foggy on the details--but because it fulfils human needs.

Thank you! I have tried to say the same, but not as well.

[Shodan]

It is what—as dreadful as Left Behind?
No not as dreadful. Actually, it is pretty good - sort of on a par with The DaVinci Code for prose style, and much superior in plotting, at least so far.

Have you read it? Any opinions?

Regards,
Shodan

[Skald the Rhymer]

No not as dreadful. Actually, it is pretty good - sort of on a par with The DaVinci Code for prose style


:confused:
That's got to be the official definition of "damned with faint praise." It's like saying, "On a par with Pol Pot for positive impact on the civilian populace."

[Shodan]

Although contrasted with Left Behind, it is positively effusive. ;)

Other Stuff About The Christ Clone Trilogy That Made It Better Than Left Behind - Not as shamelessly padded Not as larded with inexplicable references to Baptist apocalyptic theology that I have never heard of Some genuinely ambiguous characterizations Not as given to dead stops in the narrative while someone delivers a sermon Practically everything else

But your point about the prose style is a good one, but genuninely good prose is unpleasantly rare in modern fiction, unfortunately. The best parts of Narnia are enhanced by the prose - the cozy gemutlichkeit of the Tumnus and Beaver scenes in TLTWatW, the dream-like episodes on the Silver Sea in The Dawn Treader, the ornate Orientalism of the dialogue of the Tisrah* and his son and advisor in The Horse and His Boy, and so forth.

And I especially liked the Britishisms of some of the dialogue, because it seemed so un-forced and charming. Edmund is calling to Lucy in TLTWatW -Lucy! Do come out! Make it Pax!And the occasional snottiness of the exchanges between Digory and Polly in The Magician's Nephew - just like real kids. It establishes them as real characters, not stock ones. They talk as they would in Lewis' real life.

Regards,
Shodan

*Especially that most chilling line from the Tisrah.

"And your life would be short and your death slow once you had said it." :eek:

[Skald the Rhymer]

But your point about the prose style is a good one, but genuninely good prose is unpleasantly rare in modern fiction, unfortunately.


Donna Tarrt. Valerie Martin. Andre Dubus (okay, so he's dead, but he's still recent). Alice Sebold. Pat Conroy. Gaitskill. Hell, even Thomas Harris, when he's not writing Hannibal.

And that's just from the top shelf omy bookcase.


The best parts of Narnia are enhanced by the prose - the cozy gemutlichkeit of the Tumnus and Beaver scenes in TLTWatW, the dream-like episodes on the Silver Sea in The Dawn Treader, the ornate Orientalism of the dialogue of the Tisrah* and his son and advisor in The Horse and His Boy, and so forth.


You mean "Tisroc," but yes, I'm fond of the professor's prose style too.

[Malacandra]

Although contrasted with Left Behind, it is positively effusive. ;)

Other Stuff About The Christ Clone Trilogy That Made It Better Than Left Behind - Not as shamelessly padded Not as larded with inexplicable references to Baptist apocalyptic theology that I have never heard of Some genuinely ambiguous characterizations Not as given to dead stops in the narrative while someone delivers a sermon Practically everything else

But your point about the prose style is a good one, but genuninely good prose is unpleasantly rare in modern fiction, unfortunately. The best parts of Narnia are enhanced by the prose - the cozy gemutlichkeit of the Tumnus and Beaver scenes in TLTWatW, the dream-like episodes on the Silver Sea in The Dawn Treader, the ornate Orientalism of the dialogue of the Tisrah* and his son and advisor in The Horse and His Boy, and so forth.

And I especially liked the Britishisms of some of the dialogue, because it seemed so un-forced and charming. Edmund is calling to Lucy in TLTWatW -And the occasional snottiness of the exchanges between Digory and Polly in The Magician's Nephew - just like real kids. It establishes them as real characters, not stock ones. They talk as they would in Lewis' real life.

Regards,
Shodan

*Especially that most chilling line from the Tisrah.

"And your life would be short and your death slow once you had said it." :eek:

He's not a Chief Rabbit, for pity's sake! :D

[Shodan]

He's not a Chief Rabbit, for pity's sake! :D
:confused:

Regards,
Shodan

[Malacandra]

:confused:

Regards,
Shodan

The -rah suffix denotes a Chief Rabbit in Watership Down (The Threarah at Sandleford; Hazel-rah at the end of the story); the boss-man in Calormen is The Tisroc.

[Shodan]

Gotcha. Thanks.

And don't you mean "the Tisroc - may he live forever"? ;)

Regards,
Shodan

[Skald the Rhymer]

Gotcha. Thanks.

And don't you mean "the Tisroc - may he live forever"? ;)

Regards,
Shodan

"I certainly do not," Bree said. "I don't WANT him to live forever, and he won't whether I do or not."

[Rilchiam]

1. First read: Grade 3. Actually, at the beginning of grade 2, the new librarian showed me the whole set, which had just come in, but I was loyal to the old librarian, and turned up my nose. (This may be the reason why we never got along very well.) Don't remember what prompted me to try them after all, but I basically assimilated them. I could tell you where I was when I read each one.

2. Christian subtext: I don't mind it when it is subtext, supporting the story. It bugs a little when Jack gets on his own pulpit, making comments like "Bibles were not generally encouraged at Experiment House" or "Things like Do Not Steal were, I think, hammered into boys' heads a lot harder than they are today." But that may have less to do with his being a Christian than with his own personality. That said, I like Puddleglum's defiance of the Green Witch. Best argument for faith I've ever heard, or, even if faith is not important to you, at least an argument for sticking to your own principles.

3. Favorite: TMN. Although it is the least Narnian of all of them, but that's how I feel. Least favorite: I wouldn't say there are any I don't like. I even like TLB, maybe because of the circumstances in which I read it. My dad was in the hospital, and no one, not even him, had bothered to tell me that people don't usually die from cataract surgery. So the theme resonated with me quite a bit. Also, from that book I learned that when you're dehydrated, it's better to take small doses of liquid than to chug as much as you think you want. And the end of the world scenes are compelling. Also liked SC for the Underworld scenes.

4. Best written: They're all consistent. Good job from Lewis, actually: there's never a point at which you can say he lost his touch after or with a particular volume.

5. Peter: Neutral. Susan: Gets short shrift, I think. I like the bit where she outdid the dwarf in the archery contest, but was humble about it. Edmund: I like the dynamic characters. Lucy: Oh, gag me. Sanctimonious little sugarplum. Caspian: As a kid, he was blah. As King, he rocked. Eustace: I liked that he was the only our-world character to have a WTF reaction to Narnia. Jill: Also liked her. Shasta: Didn't make much impression on me. It wasn't until I was an adult that the significance of the title, The Horse and his Boy, struck me. Aravis: Liked her, but I'm not sure it was consistent when Lewis mentioned how she'd been such a tomboy before the story began. I would think her upbringing would have precluded that. Digory: Dude, he took the red pill! Polly: I like her too, but I wish she hadn't been dumb enough to grab the ring without even thinking about it. I dislike Lucy most, as I said, and I identify most with Jill, who took more abuse than anyone, and unlike Eustace, didn't even have it coming. But it was necessary, because it was established in the first chapter that she was going to have to start asserting herself. And in LB, you can see that she's earned her stripes.

6. Susan: She's not dead, so she can't be in hell yet. Perhaps the death of her family altered her worldview. If not, then she probably deserves hell.

7. Criticism: The ethnocentricity, definitely. I'm not sure the "product of its time" excuse is valid, either. I'll give him a pass for stuff like "Battles are ugly when women fight," but stuff like, in H&hB, when they're crossing through Tashbaan, was aggravating. It actually seemed like an exciting, exotic city to me, but Lewis was so determined to dump on everything that's not white and Christian, he just harped on the negatives and acted like it was a toxic waste dump.

8. Movie. Didn't like it. Don't get me started.

9. Sequels: I'd be surprised if it happens.

10. Proper order: PUBLICATION! Jeez! Who decided that this should even be an issue?! One comment to a young reader is not an endorsement for ruining the impact of LWW!

[Dung Beetle]

I'm currently reading these aloud to my nine year old son, and appreciating them more than ever. Beautifully done.