buttonjockey308, get in here...

[MrDibble]

...and get fucked. For this:The real pity is, that, like Africa, they've had so many thousands of years to perfect an existance, yet still choose to live like it's the 7th goddamn century. from here (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=382184)

"choose to live"? Just fuck off, you ignorant cunt. Fuck right off. Wanker.

[Dunderman]

Wow. What a moron.

[Contrapuntal]

Hey, if things are so bad there, why don't they just move?

[buttonjockey308]

Hey! I've been pitted! Actually, Mr. Dibble, I went on to say in a later post...

in some notable locations, no further along than they were a thousand years ago, except now, the countries of northern Africa have supplied guns and drugs, and grown men rape infants to "cure'' their AIDS, and female circumcision is a standard practice in some locations.

Of course, I did not mean the entirety of Africa, and apologies for offense, though I do think that if you're not going about the business of progress, and by ignorance, fear, or bureaucracy, are kept from your rightful place in the world, that it is indeed your choice.

Perhaps my ideas can be viewed as ignorant, and maybe even too "American" for some, to expect people in a bad situation to make it better for themselves, as my ancestors did, even by leaving.

Just as here in America, there are depressed places, and peoples that indeed choose (by doing nothing) to live the way they do. Here, admittedly, there are many more opportunities, which makes the idea of choice that much more obvious.

I'll get called all kinds of names, and be demonized for saying so, but I think as a human, you are the master of your own destiny. You are in control of what happens to you (in most cases). If you live in mud huts and hunt with spears in 2006, that's your choice. I'm not saying there aren't people trying to make a difference, but change, in all forms, must come from within.

[Ensign Edison]

Dude, seriously, put down the Ayn Rand and back slowly away. It will do you no favors in life.

[Dunderman]

I'll get called all kinds of names, and be demonized for saying so, but I think as a human, you are the master of your own destiny. You are in control of what happens to you (in most cases). If you live in mud huts and hunt with spears in 2006, that's your choice. I'm not saying there aren't people trying to make a difference, but change, in all forms, must come from within.If you live in mud huts and hunt with spears, it's your choice? You've chosen it? All you have to do is choose something else? You believe this?

Damn.

Out of curiosity, how far are you prepared to take this? Street kids in South America, have they chosen their station in life? Rural Chinese peasants? The "mudpigs" working in mines?

[Lissa]

Just as here in America, there are depressed places, and peoples that indeed choose (by doing nothing) to live the way they do. Here, admittedly, there are many more opportunities, which makes the idea of choice that much more obvious.

<snip>

I'll get called all kinds of names, and be demonized for saying so, but I think as a human, you are the master of your own destiny. You are in control of what happens to you (in most cases). If you live in mud huts and hunt with spears in 2006, that's your choice. I'm not saying there aren't people trying to make a difference, but change, in all forms, must come from within.

I don't think you really understand the situation over there. What "choices" do they really have? Where are they supposed to go? It's not like there's a Fortune 500 company down the block, and even if there was, what makes you think they'd hire a person with no education?

It's not as simple as saying, "Hey we'll just move to the city!" They probably don't have a car, nor the money to set up in a new location. Are they supposed to just abandon their ancestral lands and set out walking across the desert? Where do they get business attire?

I think this phenomenon of blaming the poor for their poverty comes from the notion which was drilled into our heads as kids that you can "be whatever you want to be" and if you fail, it must be because you didn't try hard enough. Sure, we've all heard the success stories of a guy who started out with only the clothes on his back and a dream, but those kinds of stories are one-in-a-million. (I dare you to tell a single parent who's working two jobs that the reason they're poor is that they're not trying hard enough.)

But when all you posess in this world is the hut in which you were born and possibly a cow, it's not likely you'll end up rich.

[Mellivora capensis]

Are they supposed to just abandon their ancestral lands and set out walking across the desert?

Some of them do. I was in the Namibian Caprivi Strip a few weeks ago, and there were these two dudes who were handing themselves over to the park authorities. They had just walked out of the DRC, on their way to anywhere but the DRC, and had spent the night up a tree, circled by a lioness and her cubs. They were tired, hungry, and scared to death. The dudes, not the lions. It's a pitiful sight.

Botswana has a huge problem with Zimbabweans walking across the border. South Africa has its hands full in the Kruger Park with Mozambicans becoming lion food.

Desperate times.

[woodstockbirdybird]

Oh, buttjockey's right. I, as an American with unlimited opportunities, have chosen to be poor. Because it's fun! Who wouldn't want to be poor? You get to do nothing all day! When you're not busting your ass at your shitty-paying job(s), I mean. Just like China and the entire continent of Africa are happy to live under oppression/in the Middle Ages. Why shouldn't they? I'm sure it's much easier for them to lounge in the sun all day than apply some effort to improve their situations. Non-white people are like that, you know. In fact, non-Christians are, too (
another overlooked pearl of wisdom from the linked OP):


WWII taught the world a lesson never to be forgotten, if you stand on the tracks and let the train run you over, it will.


Yeah, those lazy Jews! Just standing on the tracks, letting the train run them over. Thank the lord we Americans (the ones who didn't enjoy doing nothing and living in poverty, that is) came along to save their asses and show them how to make it in this world.

[MrDibble]

Of course, I did not mean the entirety of Africa, and apologies for offense,
Wait, fuckstick, do you think I was offended because you lumped SA along with the rest of Africa? Then you're stupid, as well as ignorant. Again, I'm not even going to bother educating you. Do as I said, and fuck right off.

[Carlyjay]

*blink*

/rubs eyes

*blink*

[DianaG]

buttonjockey308, there are few qualities more contemptible then not knowing exactly how fucking lucky you are, and assuming that people who are less lucky are somehow lacking in character.

You should work on that.

[Sarahfeena]

And the most amazing thing of all is that the reason for getting so torqued up is because of the lack of respect for the lives of dogs. Not that I don't love dogs, but...

[jjimm]

Yeah, those lazy Jews! Just standing on the tracks, letting the train run them over. Thank the lord we Americans (the ones who didn't enjoy doing nothing and living in poverty, that is) came along to save their asses and show them how to make it in this world.I'm guessing, though perhaps our diminutive buttoneer will correct me, that he's saying: the Jews learned the hard way and showed the world that you shouldn't let yourself get pushed around (because there had never ever been massacres nor genocide before the Holocaust.) It's an argument I've seen before on an NRA messageboard. "If the Jews had been armed, there would have been no Holocaust".

Which is why the Tibetans did so well preventing the Chinese invasion.

Either that, or buttonjockey is just mindbendingly stupid.

[woodstockbirdybird]

I'm guessing, though perhaps our diminutive buttoneer will correct me, that he's saying: the Jews learned the hard way and showed the world that you shouldn't let yourself get pushed around (because there had never ever been massacres nor genocide before the Holocaust.) It's an argument I've seen before on an NRA messageboard. "If the Jews had been armed, there would have been no Holocaust".

Which is why the Tibetans did so well preventing the Chinese invasion.

Either that, or buttonjockey is just mindbendingly stupid.

I think you nailed it with your last sentence.

[DxZero]

Social Darwinism lives!!

[tdn]

If you live in mud huts and hunt with spears, it's your choice? You've chosen it? All you have to do is choose something else? You believe this?
Hey, if they don't have enough money to buy better homes, they can bloody well go to the ATM.

Duh.

[Cluricaun]

Hey, if they don't have enough money to buy better homes, they can bloody well go to the ATM.

Duh.

No, no. Instead of building mud huts, they should dream big and be making mud castles and mud Bellagios complete with mud chandeliers and fluffy mud beds. :dubious:

[jjimm]

Looks like we've got our very own Marie Antoinette.

And the Pit, our very own Place de la Révolution...

[buttonjockey308]

Listen, I'm not saying I'm not lucky. I'm damn lucky to live here, I'm damn lucky to have had ancestors who risked everything to get here, and sacrificed their very lives to work and provide what is here today, a mere 228 years later, the richest, most powerful nation in the free world.

We've got problems out the wazoo, but for most Americans, failing to pull ourselves up by the bootstraps, ain't one of them.

It's all a matter of time in my opinion. For all I know, we may be back to hunting with spears and living in mud huts in another 1772 years, but for places like China and Africa, who have hosted the largest and most powerful societies in history to still have places where such brutality, savagery and absolute lawlessness reign, after so many thousands of years is unacceptable to me, unless of course, the people decide to leave it that way.

You can call me all the names you like, but in my mind, time and progress usually go hand in hand. If you're doing things today the same way you did them 3,000 years ago, and those things are a detriment to your society, and you still choose to do them, it is the fault of that society to fail to post any progress.

Indeed jjimm that was my point. While it may have been true that the Jews being armed would have done something to stop the holocaust (I don't know, and wouldn't care to guess) do you think it's going to happen to them again? Do you? I sure as hell don't, and the current mess in Israel is proof.

And yes, genocide has taken place before, and in fact after the Holocaust, but the Holocaust is modern history. There are people walking around still to day who survived it. The lessons they learned, and the lessons we learned from them ought to be burned into our collective conscience, but it isn't.


Examples like Rwanda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide) and Bosnia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_Genocide) prove it.

So yes, you're fucking right to say you shouldn't let yourself be pushed around. I would fight for my own freedom and prosperity with every fiber of my being. Guns, knives, stones, fists, whatever it takes to be free, I choose that. Of course I realize that few share my mindset, and that it's likely only because I was born here, raised here, and realize the value of the lessons passed on to me by my ancestors. I would rather die fighting than die a victim.

[threemae]

Allow me to add from other experiences beyond the cited thread in the OP that buttonjerkoff is a prick of the highest order.

If ya'll recall a pit thread regarding a media report on police intimidation of people asking to file complaints, this piece of work defended the practice because, "cops already have a hard job, and you never know who might file a false complaint, yadda yadda yadda."

A bastard without any empathy. Frankly I doubt he makes much of a cop nor much of a Doper.

[Rubystreak]

If you're doing things today the same way you did them 3,000 years ago...

Cite? Do you honestly, truly believe that things in Africa have been the same for 3,000 years? Or are you just talking out your ass?

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

He clearly chose to be pitted, so I say we give him what he's asking for.

Daniel

[tdn]

No, no. Instead of building mud huts, they should dream big and be making mud castles and mud Bellagios complete with mud chandeliers and fluffy mud beds. :dubious:
Color me confused.

What would they fill their bathtubs with?

[Dag Otto]

Color me confused.

What would they fill their bathtubs with?


Champagne, of course.


But only if they CHOOSE to do so.

[Kythereia]

Social Darwinism lives!!

The scary thing for me is, I did a project on this for my first year in university and I know exactly what you're talking about.

Also, the Pittee is being an ass.

[Contrapuntal]

buttonjockey,

You really do not have a clue. You have no historical perspective. You have no context into which to put your assertions. You are ignorant. You are guilty of oversimplification of a stupendous order. Unless you have had to fight against overwhelming odds for every scrap of bread and every sip of water you are in no position to judge those who have. Until you have seen your husband murdered and your children enslaved, your home destroyed and your fields ravaged, been raped and left for dead on the scrapheap, you have NO CALL TO SPEW YOUR INSANE RAMBLINGS. Get The Fuck Over Yourself, ... such as it is.

[DxZero]

The scary thing for me is, I did a project on this for my first year in university and I know exactly what you're talking about.

Also, the Pittee is being an ass.

There was a girl in my poli sci department a few years back who was a walking talking embodiment of a Social Darwinist. I never seen a more hated person in my life. It got to the point where professors wouldn't call on her and then someone stole her stupid totebag she carried around and shoved it in the toilet. I think she evidentually transferred.

Man, I miss her. Good times when she was around.

[DrDeth]

Oh, buttjockey's right. I, as an American with unlimited opportunities, have chosen to be poor. .

Yes, you have. Although I agree that many parts of Sub-saharan Africa aren't brimming over with opportunities- American is. You, as a Californian, can go to a nice two year college- at night, after your shitty job- bascily for what amounts to free. This can get you a Nursing credential (for example; or police science, or dental tech, or....) amoung many other excellent and well paid job opportunities. Yes, you have to get your ass off the couch after work, skipping the nightly TV, and into college for a few years. But you have no fucking excuse.

(OK, if you are PD, maybe you have an excuse, but even so, the opportunities for a disabled person here in the USA are many and varied).

Unless you're stupid or lazy, you can get a decent job (here in America) if you strive. Sure, being a Nurse (for example) is hard work- but the pay isn't bad at all, and there's scads of openings. Shit-loads better than fry-cook at fast food, anyway. And, even there- one of my Ex's freinds left her abusive husband. She had no job skills, and yes, she went on welfare for a year. Then, she got a job at McDonalds, but her determination and hard work got her promoted to crew chief within 6 months, and when I last heard from her, they were sending her to Hamburger Univ. All she had was a GED, average IQ, and scads of determination and get up and go. Oh, and two young kids, too. And, she lived in East San Jose, not exactly a better neighborhood. If she can do it, you can.

buttonjockey308 is more or less wrong. But- only "more or less". For although most of Sub-saharan Africa is hardly opportunity rich, a person can still strive and make things better. Still, their chances and opportunities are crap compared to here, but there are chances and opportunities.

[Sarahfeena]

I have to agree that you can in no way compare the opportunity level in the U.S. with that in African countries. I think what is really shown by the problems in much of Africa is what happens when you have bad government, more than anything it says about the people. It is shown all over the world that when the people are given nothing but the economic freedom needed to start & run businesses, then they will work hard and thrive. When those opportunities are hampered by endless political unrest and unreasonable control over businesses, then the opposite happens. To fault the average person living in Africa for this is completely unreasonable.

[jsgoddess]

Listen, I'm not saying I'm not lucky. I'm damn lucky to live here, I'm damn lucky to have had ancestors who risked everything to get here

I may not remember my family lore correctly, but I believe my ancestors were mostly trying to get out of being drafted. Ah, the smell of nobility in the morning.

[MagicXylophone]

Yes, you have. Although I agree that many parts of Sub-saharan Africa aren't brimming over with opportunities- American is. You, as a Californian, can go to a nice two year college- at night, after your shitty job- bascily for what amounts to free. This can get you a Nursing credential (for example; or police science, or dental tech, or....) amoung many other excellent and well paid job opportunities. Yes, you have to get your ass off the couch after work, skipping the nightly TV, and into college for a few years. But you have no fucking excuse.

(OK, if you are PD, maybe you have an excuse, but even so, the opportunities for a disabled person here in the USA are many and varied).

Unless you're stupid or lazy, you can get a decent job (here in America) if you strive. Sure, being a Nurse (for example) is hard work- but the pay isn't bad at all, and there's scads of openings. Shit-loads better than fry-cook at fast food, anyway. And, even there- one of my Ex's freinds left her abusive husband. She had no job skills, and yes, she went on welfare for a year. Then, she got a job at McDonalds, but her determination and hard work got her promoted to crew chief within 6 months, and when I last heard from her, they were sending her to Hamburger Univ. All she had was a GED, average IQ, and scads of determination and get up and go. Oh, and two young kids, too. And, she lived in East San Jose, not exactly a better neighborhood. If she can do it, you can.

buttonjockey308 is more or less wrong. But- only "more or less". For although most of Sub-saharan Africa is hardly opportunity rich, a person can still strive and make things better. Still, their chances and opportunities are crap compared to here, but there are chances and opportunities.
Wow. I had to read that twice to make sure you weren't kidding. Please say you're kidding.

[DrDeth]

Wow. I had to read that twice to make sure you weren't kidding. Please say you're kidding.

I wasn't kidding.

I just don't know which statement in my post you think is wrong. :confused:

Is it that I said there are comparitively plenty of opportunities here in the USA? Do you contend otherwise? :confused:

I had to work my way through college as a night watchman. Both my parents worked. But now I am a well-paid professional. Not rich, no.

I also said that in Sub-Saharan Africa the opportunities are slim compared to here. Or are you saying that in Africa there are lots of opportunties and everything is just ducky? :confused:

Or that you think there are no chances and no opportunities at all; and that no one can make it, no matter how hard they try? :confused:

[kaylasdad99]

There is a little daylight between "there are no chances and no opportunities at all," and "suboptimal results can ONLY be attributed to sub-acceptable effort."

[jsgoddess]

Is it that I said there are comparitively plenty of opportunities here in the USA? Do you contend otherwise?

The operative word is "comparitively."

[woodstockbirdybird]

Yes, you have. Although I agree that many parts of Sub-saharan Africa aren't brimming over with opportunities- American is. You, as a Californian, can go to a nice two year college- at night, after your shitty job- bascily for what amounts to free. This can get you a Nursing credential (for example; or police science, or dental tech, or....) amoung many other excellent and well paid job opportunities. Yes, you have to get your ass off the couch after work, skipping the nightly TV, and into college for a few years. But you have no fucking excuse.

(OK, if you are PD, maybe you have an excuse, but even so, the opportunities for a disabled person here in the USA are many and varied).

Unless you're stupid or lazy, you can get a decent job (here in America) if you strive. Sure, being a Nurse (for example) is hard work- but the pay isn't bad at all, and there's scads of openings. Shit-loads better than fry-cook at fast food, anyway. And, even there- one of my Ex's freinds left her abusive husband. She had no job skills, and yes, she went on welfare for a year. Then, she got a job at McDonalds, but her determination and hard work got her promoted to crew chief within 6 months, and when I last heard from her, they were sending her to Hamburger Univ. All she had was a GED, average IQ, and scads of determination and get up and go. Oh, and two young kids, too. And, she lived in East San Jose, not exactly a better neighborhood. If she can do it, you can.

buttonjockey308 is more or less wrong. But- only "more or less". For although most of Sub-saharan Africa is hardly opportunity rich, a person can still strive and make things better. Still, their chances and opportunities are crap compared to here, but there are chances and opportunities.


Actually, I'm not poor - I was using myself in the example to stand in for a poor American. I have been poor, though, and the reason I'm not has more to do with luck than hard work. I used to work 2 full-time shitty jobs just to get by, and there was no way I would have been able to squeeze school in. Anyway, if you think all people have to do to get out of poverty is "get off the couch after work and skip the TV" and they'll be able to get a degree because money for school is dripping off the trees for the impoverished, you're a fucking loon. Guess what? Plenty of poor people do work their asses off and they're still poor. And if your idea of "opportunity" is attending Hamburger University, we're obviously not going to see things eye to eye.

As far as sub-Saharan African citizens who are living in poverty striving and making things better, I'm sure the ones that can, do - but if you're not even afforded the opportunity to get an education or you're being brutally oppressed by your government, you're pretty much fucked. Much like the dipshit arguments you're making here.

[MelCthefirst]

Yes, you have. Although I agree that many parts of Sub-saharan Africa aren't brimming over with opportunities- American is. You, as a Californian, can go to a nice two year college- at night, after your shitty job- bascily for what amounts to free. This can get you a Nursing credential (for example; or police science, or dental tech, or....) amoung many other excellent and well paid job opportunities. Yes, you have to get your ass off the couch after work, skipping the nightly TV, and into college for a few years. But you have no fucking excuse.

(OK, if you are PD, maybe you have an excuse, but even so, the opportunities for a disabled person here in the USA are many and varied).

Unless you're stupid or lazy, you can get a decent job (here in America) if you strive. Sure, being a Nurse (for example) is hard work- but the pay isn't bad at all, and there's scads of openings. Shit-loads better than fry-cook at fast food, anyway. And, even there- one of my Ex's freinds left her abusive husband. She had no job skills, and yes, she went on welfare for a year. Then, she got a job at McDonalds, but her determination and hard work got her promoted to crew chief within 6 months, and when I last heard from her, they were sending her to Hamburger Univ. All she had was a GED, average IQ, and scads of determination and get up and go. Oh, and two young kids, too. And, she lived in East San Jose, not exactly a better neighborhood. If she can do it, you can.

buttonjockey308 is more or less wrong. But- only "more or less". For although most of Sub-saharan Africa is hardly opportunity rich, a person can still strive and make things better. Still, their chances and opportunities are crap compared to here, but there are chances and opportunities.

People and the things that influence them aren't as simple as you seem to think they are - otherwise, all those who are motivated to work very hard (for money not for the love of the job) would be well off, and yet they are not.

[OneCentStamp]

Dude, seriously, put down the Ayn Rand and back slowly away. It will do you no favors in life.

Hey, Edison. I like you and all, but don't even go pinning this guy's delusions on Rand. :mad:;)

[woodstockbirdybird]

Hey, Edison. I like you and all, but don't even go pinning this guy's delusions on Rand. :mad:;)

I dunno. His whole outlook seems pretty Randian to me.

[DrDeth]

. Anyway, if you think all people have to do to get out of poverty is "get off the couch after work and skip the TV" and they'll be able to get a degree because money for school is dripping off the trees for the impoverished, you're a fucking loon. Guess what? Plenty of poor people do work their asses off and they're still poor. And if your idea of "opportunity" is attending Hamburger University, we're obviously not going to see things eye to eye.
.

Did you read what I said? Community Colleges are more or less free in CA for those who are poor. Thus, no money needs to "drip off trees".

And, although you may despise a Manager job at MacDonalds, it's a fair job, gotten by hard work- and if you have it, you're not poor. Hard work for just OK wages, maybe. But not poor. It's certainly an "opportunity", whether you think so or no. Parlay that into a MacDonalds Franchise (and many have) and you're not doing bad at all.

[Bobotheoptimist]

...and get fucked. For this: from here (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=382184)
The real pity is, that, like Africa, they've had so many thousands of years to perfect an existance, yet still choose to live like it's the 7th goddamn century.
"choose to live"? Just fuck off, you ignorant cunt. Fuck right off. Wanker.
Now, with a few minor modifications, I can almost agree with buttonjockey308. Just change "still choose to live" to "have uncaring governments that choose to keep their people living like it's the 7th goddamn century" (but I'd have to see a cite that the 7th goddamn century in sub-Saharan Africa was really as fucked up as the region is now). But if buttonjockey308 is blaming the kids for getting their own arms cut off or the refugees for starving to death ("They chose to allow it!"), then I pit him to the pittest pits in pitsville!

The backward-ass warlord dictator shitheads that are killing their own people in order to maintain their fucked-up regimes... Crap, where was I going with that? OH, RIGHT! "Fucktards"! That's it.

[buttonjockey308]

OK...

It seems that the "Social Darwinist" label applied by some of my fellow dopers is meant as an insult...I'm not insulted.



Social Darwinism is closely tied to earlier conceptions of unilineal evolution which were common until at least the second part of the 20th century. Those who endorsed these views, however, may disagree on political choices. Some believe "natural selection", which they claim is a principle valid as much in evolution of the animal kingdom as in human societies, can be consciously affected by human beings. Those who take this view believe that governments should implement policies that would guide human evolution in a positive direction. The specific policies supported by such Social Darwinists vary greatly, from eugenics and compulsory sterilization to laissez-faire, free markets and governmental non-intervention in the economy.

However, other Social Darwinists argue that human beings cannot control their evolution any more than animals can, and that governments and their policies, like all other aspects of human society, are themselves subject to evolution rather than being able to control it. Therefore, they do not recommend any political policies; in their view, it is inevitable that human societies will select those policies that are most beneficial to their evolution. These Social Darwinists promote a kind of passive acceptance of any social or political change, because they believe all such changes are driven by evolution.

Which is wrong how exactly? If Darwin was right about evolution, certianly the basis for the theory can be extrapolated in an abstract fashion to include human societies, no?

You really do not have a clue. You have no historical perspective. You have no context into which to put your assertions. You are ignorant. You are guilty of oversimplification of a stupendous order. Unless you have had to fight against overwhelming odds for every scrap of bread and every sip of water you are in no position to judge those who have. Until you have seen your husband murdered and your children enslaved, your home destroyed and your fields ravaged, been raped and left for dead on the scrapheap, you have NO CALL TO SPEW YOUR INSANE RAMBLINGS. Get The Fuck Over Yourself, ... such as it is.

OK, I'm willing to learn, and this goes for any one else who can give me what Contrapuntal believes I lack. I am not without the ability to learn, but I've had my struggles, lived in an unheated room of an empty house with no plumbing, and hijacked electricity while I worked my ass off to put food on the plate for me and my dog, and money in the bank so I could get out of the mess I was in, all before the age of 19. I've bootstrapped it like nobody's business. Have I had it as hard as the person in Contrapuntal's example? Does fuck go with no?

I'm lucky.

I live in a country where opportunities abound, and I thank the invisible sky pixie for whatever of those were laid at my hand for the taking.

I'm not saying evolving an entire society is fucking SIMPLE, I'm saying it's up to the people to put a government in place to faciltiate their needs and demands. No matter what it takes to do it.

And I DO have the right to spew forth whatever I bloody well want. It's one of those things that the people who came before me by the hundreds of thousands, fought and died to insure.

I have to agree that you can in no way compare the opportunity level in the U.S. with that in African countries. I think what is really shown by the problems in much of Africa is what happens when you have bad government, more than anything it says about the people.

Is the government not the people?

It is shown all over the world that when the people are given nothing but the economic freedom needed to start & run businesses, then they will work hard and thrive. When those opportunities are hampered by endless political unrest and unreasonable control over businesses, then the opposite happens. To fault the average person living in Africa for this is completely unreasonable.

Number one, I'm not faulting the average person as an individual, at least not directly. What I am saying is that if members of a society as a whole don't fight with all your being for the freedom you yearn for, both personal and economic, then your yearning is in vein, and it is that much time wasted.

If your neighbor takes up an army against you, you do the same, to defend youself from him, and by so doing fight for your own rights, endowed as they were
by the aforementioned sky pixie.

EVERY HUMAN has the right to be free from the kind of control that you're talking about sarahfeena but there is a price to be paid to gain that right. Most often, that price is blood, and in my opinion, better it be spilt in the furtherance of freedom, than standing by watching while the most vile amongst you ruins your life for you.

And no, bobtheoptimist I'm not trying or intending to blame kids for having their arms cut off by vicious warlords, or, to a lesser extent, the starving refugees, my only point is that as a society, if you want progress, it takes a motherfuckload of hard work, blood, sweat, muscle, hope, and time.

[buttonjockey308]

Allow me to add from other experiences beyond the cited thread in the OP that buttonjerkoff is a prick of the highest order.

If ya'll recall a pit thread regarding a media report on police intimidation of people asking to file complaints, this piece of work defended the practice because, "cops already have a hard job, and you never know who might file a false complaint, yadda yadda yadda."

A bastard without any empathy. Frankly I doubt he makes much of a cop nor much of a Doper.

Cite it. Please. Minus of course the "yadda yadda yadda" part. I will put the better part of a dollar on the fact that you remember incorrectly or mistook the intent of my post.

While we're at it, I am not a bastard, my father is very much alive thank you. I have sympathy, but i suppose little empathy. I prefer action over simply ''feeling someone else's pain" I would rather fix it than 'feel' about it.

[Cluricaun]

I'm not trying or intending to blame kids for having their arms cut off by vicious warlords, or, to a lesser extent, the starving refugees, my only point is that as a society, if you want progress, it takes a motherfuckload of hard work, blood, sweat, muscle, hope, and time.

It also takes money, peace, safety, and food, not all of which are available in abundance in Africa, thanks to many of the war-lords that are in power mostly as a result of European colonial abandonment and dictator sponsored resource subjugation for the last few hundred years. You can rail on about blood, sweat, and tears all you like, but you need more ingredients in your stew than just those to have a starting point to being able to successfully help ones self.

[fisha]

Three words. "Guns, Germs, and Steel." You may like it, buttonjockey. Is it an excuse for the inequities of the world? Noooooo, but it may explain some things. You said you are willing to learn, this is an easy first step.

[tomndebb]

Is the government not the people?Not often. In a substantial part of the world, including major sections of the place you are denigrating, the government is whatever warlord or dictator was able to promise outside interests that he would be able to deliver raw materials they sought if they would only provide him with weapons and a trained army to secure the countryside. After a number of those sorts of events, other people on the outside began supplying different groups with weapons to overthrow the first guy. The people, living on subsistence farming, could hardly afford to buy their own weapons and (when they acquired weapons) they were often compelled by circumstances to either join one of the feuding parties already in existence or else start their own splinter group. Even if they started out with the noble intention of securing their rights under their government, they would wind up being one more armed faction.

Africa is a continent that has seen a huge amount of outside interference with its development. Platitudes about shedding blood to secure something or another ring pretty hollow in a place where so much existing bloodshed has resulted from attempts to do just that.

[Monty]

OK...

It seems that the "Social Darwinist" label applied by some of my fellow dopers is meant as an insult...I'm not insulted.

Then you have no idea why Social Darwinism is bunk.

Which is wrong how exactly? If Darwin was right about evolution, certianly the basis for the theory can be extrapolated in an abstract fashion to include human societies, no?

Yep, no idea at all. Society is not a biological organism.

OK, I'm willing to learn, and this goes for any one else who can give me what Contrapuntal believes I lack. I am not without the ability to learn, but I've had my struggles, lived in an unheated room of an empty house with no plumbing, and hijacked electricity while I worked my ass off to put food on the plate for me and my dog, and money in the bank so I could get out of the mess I was in, all before the age of 19. I've bootstrapped it like nobody's business. Have I had it as hard as the person in Contrapuntal's example? Does fuck go with no?

I'm lucky.

And a thief, to boot. Being born into poverty is not a choice. Being a thief is.

I live in a country where opportunities abound, and I thank the invisible sky pixie for whatever of those were laid at my hand for the taking.

The US abounds with opportunity, and more people in the US have access to that opportunity. You can say all you want that you bootstrapped yourself but that also is bunk. The reason you could bootstrap is because the affluent society of which you are a part has the structure for that. Those born into the desparate poverty of so many other places are not lucky enough to have a society with the cash, the resources to provide so many people the opportunity you got.

I'm not saying evolving an entire society is fucking SIMPLE, I'm saying it's up to the people to put a government in place to faciltiate their needs and demands. No matter what it takes to do it.

Putting aside the simple fact that societies don't evolve in the biological sense, there are people in many societies who thrive off of keeping other people in their society in poverty and ignorance.

And I DO have the right to spew forth whatever I bloody well want. It's one of those things that the people who came before me by the hundreds of thousands, fought and died to insure.

I've said it before on these boards and I'll keep saying it: yes, you have a right ot any opinion you wish to express. What you don't have a right to is to have an inane and ill-founded opinion treated with respect and deference.

Is the government not the people?

In the US, the government is the people. That does not hold true everywhere. Had you any sense, you would have noticed that by now.

Number one, I'm not faulting the average person as an individual, at least not directly.

You did so in the OP and you are doing so now.

What I am saying is that if members of a society as a whole don't fight with all your being for the freedom you yearn for, both personal and economic, then your yearning is in vein, and it is that much time wasted.

Read The Aquariums of Pyongyang or The Gulapeg Archipelago and then get back to us.

If your neighbor takes up an army against you, you do the same, to defend youself from him, and by so doing fight for your own rights, endowed as they were by the aforementioned sky pixie.

Cute trick if your neighbor has been endowed with modern military weapons and all you have is a stick rake you fashioned from the last tree within walking distance.

EVERY HUMAN has the right to be free from the kind of control that you're talking about sarahfeena but there is a price to be paid to gain that right. Most often, that price is blood, and in my opinion, better it be spilt in the furtherance of freedom, than standing by watching while the most vile amongst you ruins your life for you.

Again, you're talking nonsense. Do you really think those in the abject poverty in Africa, North Korea, and other places really choose to live there, do you really think they are "standing by watching" their societies suffer?

And no, bobtheoptimist I'm not trying or intending to blame kids for having their arms cut off by vicious warlords, or, to a lesser extent, the starving refugees, my only point is that as a society, if you want progress, it takes a motherfuckload of hard work, blood, sweat, muscle, hope, and time.

You left out luck. You know, like the luck you had in being born into a society where that stuff works.

[woodstockbirdybird]

Nice job, Monty. More eloquent than I could have put it (though your post contained far too few "fucks", IMO). I was just getting ready to reply to his idiotic reading of Social Darwinism when I saw your post. I do hope you respond, buttassjockey.

[Miller]

OK...

It seems that the "Social Darwinist" label applied by some of my fellow dopers is meant as an insult...I'm not insulted.

You should be. Credibility-wise, the theory of social Darwinism is somewhere between creationism and the flat Earth.

Which is wrong how exactly? If Darwin was right about evolution, certianly the basis for the theory can be extrapolated in an abstract fashion to include human societies, no?

No. Not even remotely. You clearly have no idea what evolution is, or how it works. Evolution does not favor the strong, or the fast, or the brave. Even if it were somehow applicable to human society, "Social Darwinism" would dictate that, in a brutal dictatorship that murderously stifles dissent, the smartest survival tactic would be to keep your mouth shut and your head down. That's what keeps you alive, and that's all evolution does; it favors those who stay alive by whatever means necessary.

OK, I'm willing to learn, and this goes for any one else who can give me what Contrapuntal believes I lack.

That would be a heart and a brain, but unfortunetly, I don't think the Wizard of Oz posts here.

I am not without the ability to learn, but I've had my struggles, lived in an unheated room of an empty house with no plumbing, and hijacked electricity while I worked my ass off to put food on the plate for me and my dog, and money in the bank so I could get out of the mess I was in, all before the age of 19. I've bootstrapped it like nobody's business. Have I had it as hard as the person in Contrapuntal's example? Does fuck go with no?

I'm lucky.

I live in a country where opportunities abound, and I thank the invisible sky pixie for whatever of those were laid at my hand for the taking.

Yeah yeah yeah. Congratulations, Horatio Alger.

I'm not saying evolving an entire society is fucking SIMPLE, I'm saying it's up to the people to put a government in place to faciltiate their needs and demands. No matter what it takes to do it.

No, it's not simple. In fact, it's very, very difficult. And you know what one trait describes all difficult tasks? More often than not, they fail. In the other thread, you sneered as ten million dead Chinese because they didn't have the gumption to make a better country for themselves. Hey fuckstick: why do you think they were killed? Do you know who Mao Zedong was? How he came to power? The brutal civil war that precipated his rise? The occupation by vastly stronger foreign powers that led to the civil war? Does the Rape of Nanking ring any bells for you? The good guys don't always win, asshole, and about fifty years ago, the bad guys in China won in a big way, and they've had that entire nation in their grip ever since.

And I DO have the right to spew forth whatever I bloody well want. It's one of those things that the people who came before me by the hundreds of thousands, fought and died to insure.

He didn't say you didn't have the right, numbnuts, he said you don't have the tanding. You can shoot your fool mouth off all you want, but all you're doing is revealing your vast ignorance of history, politics, and human nature. If you had brain one in that echoing cavern you call a skull, you'd keep your moron opinions to yourself until you've fucking learned something about the way the world works.

Is the government not the people?

No. In most nations, the government is whoever has the most guns.

Number one, I'm not faulting the average person as an individual, at least not directly. What I am saying is that if members of a society as a whole don't fight with all your being for the freedom you yearn for, both personal and economic, then your yearning is in vein, and it is that much time wasted.

Most of them are fighting with all their being just to survive from one day to the next. And most of those who fight for something more, lose.

If your neighbor takes up an army against you, you do the same, to defend youself from him, and by so doing fight for your own rights, endowed as they were by the aforementioned sky pixie.

And you'll win, of course, because your magic sky pixie rights are stronger than tanks and bombs.

EVERY HUMAN has the right to be free from the kind of control that you're talking about sarahfeena but there is a price to be paid to gain that right. Most often, that price is blood, and in my opinion, better it be spilt in the furtherance of freedom, than standing by watching while the most vile amongst you ruins your life for you.

And no, bobtheoptimist I'm not trying or intending to blame kids for having their arms cut off by vicious warlords, or, to a lesser extent, the starving refugees, my only point is that as a society, if you want progress, it takes a motherfuckload of hard work, blood, sweat, muscle, hope, and time.

And when you've spilt all your blood, broken your back trying to change the system that's keeping you down, and sent all your children away to die at the hands of those vicious warlords, and things still aren't any better, then what?

You've got pricesly one thing going for you, buttonjockey: optimism. That and 300 billion dollars will buy you a regime change, but it takes a lot more than that to make a country.

[Monty]

Thanks, woody. Sorry about the lack of colorful language; however, I no longer curse.

[Contrapuntal]

Nice job, Monty. More eloquent than I could have put it (though your post contained far too few "fucks", IMO). I was just getting ready to reply to his idiotic reading of Social Darwinism when I saw your post. I do hope you respond, buttassjockey.Me three. Monty has said it better than I. You really need to educate yourself about Conditions Over There before you offer Solutions for Over There. And arguing from your experience is only valid as long as your subject mirrors your experience. If then.

Do you really think it is just a lackof backbone that has kept peoples oppressed?

[DxZero]

Since I'm the first one who threw it out there(I think), let me add my thanks for a point by point refutation of Mr. Buttonjockey. I lost my taste for debate after the line where he didn't consider to be called a Socal Darwinist an insult. I suppose being called a blithering dumbass is neccesarily an insult, but its not something I'd want on a business card.

[DxZero]

And Miller as well. Good job.

[DrDeth]

I do hope you respond, buttassjockey.

Although I don't agree with buttonjockey308, changing dudes names around by adding "butt" or "ass" is something that most of us gave up in the 5th grade. :rolleyes: This is something Beavis and Butthead would find hilarious. :rolleyes:

[Rubystreak]

Miller, your post is comprehensive and brilliant.

All I can add is this: lacking empathy is not something to be proud of, buttonjockey. Empathy is what allows you to see things from another person's point of view and have feelings of sadness and mercy towards them, rather than judging them by your irrelevant standards. Let's try this for a moment:

Imagine growing up without the ability to read nor anything TO read, without proper nutrition or clean water, without a government that even pretends to give a shit about you (if you can call it a government, and if it doesn't actively want to kill you). You have no skills except for maybe eking out a living in the place where your family landed in the chaos of the failed state where you live (unless you're in a refuge camp, of course). Disease is common, medical care is not. Your life expectancy is below 50, infant mortality is around 15 out of 100 live births.

Imagine you have no idea what the rest of the world is like, because there is no electricity for you to hijack, so you don't KNOW you should expect a better life. Some American asshole tells you you're not trying hard enough to drag your continent out of the dark ages. What would you "feel"?

[woodstockbirdybird]

Although I don't agree with buttonjockey308, changing dudes names around by adding "butt" or "ass" is something that most of us gave up in the 5th grade. :rolleyes: This is something Beavis and Butthead would find hilarious. :rolleyes:

You know what else most of us gave up in the third grade? Using lame-ass smileys to convey the emotion behind our words. But thanks for the advice - I'm sure if I apply myself and work hard, I can achieve the same level of maturity as you, O Swami.

p.s. Eat my poo.

[Monty]

The Gulapeg Archipelago
Actually, you should read The Gulag Archipelago. I misremembered the name of the work.

[Epimetheus]

Although I don't agree with buttonjockey308, changing dudes names around by adding "butt" or "ass" is something that most of us gave up in the 5th grade. :rolleyes: This is something Beavis and Butthead would find hilarious. :rolleyes:

You're surprised? This from the dumbass that thinks it is somehow clever to have a ciggarette shoved up his nose.

[threemae]

Cite it. Please. Minus of course the "yadda yadda yadda" part. I will put the better part of a dollar on the fact that you remember incorrectly or mistook the intent of my post.

While we're at it, I am not a bastard, my father is very much alive thank you. I have sympathy, but i suppose little empathy. I prefer action over simply ''feeling someone else's pain" I would rather fix it than 'feel' about it.

Right here:
"So what? If those plants the newsteam sent in had actual complaints, my guess is that they would have been treated differently, but trying to mess with a person whose career success (read:staying alive) hinges on realizing when he or she was being messed with is, as we found out, a losing proposition.

The racial profiling bit? Again, while it sucks, profiling (both racial and otherwise) is a valid tool for law enforcement, like it or not. ... Will I take the word of an anti-cop activist over that of a trained cop? Not on your life."

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=360742&highlight=police

So there you go folks, let it also be added that he's on the record as being in favor of racial profiling.

Another credit to the profession.

[Miller]

Actually, you should read The Gulag Archipelago. I misremembered the name of the work.

Oh, I thought you were refering to the place giant tortoises were sent for crimes against the state.

[Monty]

The OP's a police officer? Tell me that's not true. Lie to me if you must.

[Miller]

While we're at it, I am not a bastard, my father is very much alive thank you.

A bastard isn't someone whose father is dead, it's someone whose father wasn't married to their mother when they were born.

I have sympathy, but i suppose little empathy.

Form your posts in this and the other thread, it would appear that you have neither.

I prefer action over simply ''feeling someone else's pain" I would rather fix it than 'feel' about it.

Here you have created a false dichotomy. One can work to fix the problems of the world while also caring about the people in it. Empathy does not replace action, it inspires it.

[woodstockbirdybird]

You're surprised? This from the dumbass that thinks it is somehow clever to have a ciggarette shoved up his nose.

I'm sorry, should I no u?

p.s. I'm at least clever enough to know how to spell "cigarette". And not to go through life weighing a metric ton.

[Monty]

The OP's a police officer? Tell me that's not true. Lie to me if you must.
Man, I have to wake up a bit more. I mean to ask if the butt (target) of the OP is a cop.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

The OP's a police officer? Tell me that's not true. Lie to me if you must.
He's not a police officer (shut up, the rest of you!)

Daniel

[Sarahfeena]

EVERY HUMAN has the right to be free from the kind of control that you're talking about sarahfeena but there is a price to be paid to gain that right. Most often, that price is blood, and in my opinion, better it be spilt in the furtherance of freedom, than standing by watching while the most vile amongst you ruins your life for you. Yes, they do have that right. But until YOU live in a murderous dictatorship, I don't think you want to be making judgements about why people aren't able to escape them.

[Epimetheus]

I'm sorry, should I no u?

p.s. I'm at least clever enough to know how to spell "cigarette". And not to go through life weighing a metric ton.

But not so clever to know that other people on the internet aren't overweight either, jackass. Whatever weighing a metric ton has to be with anything. Oh yeah, this is the thread in which you prove how immature a 36 year old can be. I forgot.

[woodstockbirdybird]

But not so clever to know that other people on the internet aren't overweight either, jackass. Whatever weighing a metric ton has to be with anything. Oh yeah, this is the thread in which you prove how immature a 36 year old can be. I forgot.

Jesus Christ, dude(?). Are you gonna tell us all where my birthmark is next? I guess it's the "mature" Pit tactic to look up people's personal info in order to make it part of an unrelated argument, and I suppose it might even be an effective one if I gave a shit, but since I don't, I just think you're pathetic and mildly stalkerish.

In any case, maturity's overrated. This ain't the fuckin' U.N. or a job interview, so if you find me juvenile for telling you to suck my dick, the only effect that has on me is to encourage me to add that you should not forget to lick my taint while you're down there, bitch.

And I know not everyone on the internet is fat. I'm talking specifically about you. I'm assuming, of course; but since you're a)a Doper with b) a giant stick up your ass, I figured it was a safe conclusion to draw.

[kaylasdad99]

Sheesh.

Get a room, you two.

This thread is about buttonjockey308.

[woodstockbirdybird]

Sheesh.

Get a room, you two.

This thread is about buttonjockey308.

Right you are.
He's a fucking idiot. I thought that was already established, though.

[MrDibble]

Man, I have to wake up a bit more. I mean to ask if the butt (target) of the OP is a cop.
I'm the OP, and I assumed that was who you meant.

But it's OK, like LHoD said (would LHoD lie?), he's not a cop. And he'll still respect you in the morning, too.

[DianaG]

All I can add is this: lacking empathy is not something to be proud of, [B]buttonjockey. Empathy is what allows you to see things from another person's point of view and have feelings of sadness and mercy towards them, rather than judging them by your irrelevant standards.
buttonjockey doesn't know what "Social Darwinsim" means, or, apparently "bastard", so I find it entirely likely he's unclear on the definition of "empathy" as well.

I'm not saying evolving an entire society is fucking SIMPLE, I'm saying it's up to the people to put a government in place to faciltiate their needs and demands. No matter what it takes to do it.
You have no idea what it takes.

And I DO have the right to spew forth whatever I bloody well want. It's one of those things that the people who came before me by the hundreds of thousands, fought and died to insure.
Sure you do. And we have the right to call you a blithering idiot. And to point out that those people who fought and died were in fact, not you. You piss on their courage and their sacrifice by implying that you, by virtue of simply enjoying the fruits of their labor, are qualified to tell others how to achieve what they achieved.

[Bryan Ekers]

Three words. "Guns, Germs, and Steel."
That's actually four words, you innumerate unevolved economic parasite second-hander.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

A suggestion, jockey: you're viewing social change as happening at a societal level, and viewing obligations, rights, and responsibilities as occurring at this level. That's a bad idea. Societies are a useful fiction: they represent trends in behaviors among humans. The correct level at which to view obligations, rights, and responsibilities is at the level of the individual.

Organizations, including clubs, companies, nations, and societies, have no rights. They ahve no obligations. The people that make them up each have rights and obligations.

As long as you view it at a social level, you're not seeing the trees for the forest. And that leads to some repugnant ethical pronouncements.

Daniel

[buttonjockey308]

I appreciate all of the colorful uses of my handle, really, goes a long way to prove a point. :rolleyes:

That said, it seems I've much to learn about the intricacies of world politics, and thankfully, I've got a place like this, and people who are willing to point me in the right direction.

I've been too busy with my life and everything in it the last few years to expand my worldview. I suppose the drive-by information that came from what little reading I DID do, wasn't enough, so back to the llibrary I go.

Two things FTR though... 1. I DO know what bastard means, just faster fingers than thoughts (like you didn't know that).

2. I am an Investigator, yes, and a Firefighter, I manage telecommunications, and i've been a patrol officer. I've been in public service for 15 years with a spotless record. What my politics might be have ZERO bearing on my job, the execution of my duties and the people that I serve and protect.

Thanks all.

[fisha]

That's actually four words, you innumerate unevolved economic parasite second-hander.

Well hello. Bryan is it? Pleased to make your acquaintance. Is vitriolic blathering so early in the morning one of your more charming traits? Can I look forward to more bilious spewing and inanity from you in the future? Is it your trademark? Or are you just bored with the thread, decided to poke me, see what happens?

[jjimm]

I recommend the empathy route: try to get into the mind of say, an illiterate Chinese peasant being beaten by a member of the Kuomintang, or a member of the Chinese bourgeousie at the time of the Communist revolution or Cultural Revolution. Recommended reading: Wild Swans by Jung Chang, The Man Who Stayed Behind by Sidney Rittenberg, Red China Blues by Jan Wong or Tibet, Tibet by Patrick French. All are accessible, and helpful to understand that, most of the time, the little people don't have any control in the matters of regional or geopolitics.

[jlzania]

If you're going to brush up on your reading, buttonjockey308, may I suggest "Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies" by Jared Diamond.
I think you'll find it quite interesting.

[Epimetheus]

Jesus Christ, dude(?). Are you gonna tell us all where my birthmark is next? I guess it's the "mature" Pit tactic to look up people's personal info in order to make it part of an unrelated argument, and I suppose it might even be an effective one if I gave a shit, but since I don't, I just think you're pathetic and mildly stalkerish.


Riiight.. I mean it is so stalkerish to click "Visit my homepage" on your profile. Perhaps if you don't want people to see how destitute you are, you should remove the link.

And you are wrong about the overweight thing, but think what you want, Bucko. You look like a tool and have the personality of a tool (in this thread at least- never saw you before here), so I couldn't really care less. I'd say you are the one that is pathetic.

[Contrapuntal]

Well hello. Bryan is it? Pleased to make your acquaintance. Is vitriolic blathering so early in the morning one of your more charming traits? Can I look forward to more bilious spewing and inanity from you in the future? Is it your trademark? Or are you just bored with the thread, decided to poke me, see what happens?Whoossshhhh.

[jjimm]

If you're going to brush up on your reading, buttonjockey308, may I suggest "Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies" by Jared Diamond.
I think you'll find it quite interesting.Oh yes, heartily recommended. Awesome book, even though it took me a while to get through. It's the other end from the "empathy" spectrum.

[Contrapuntal]

If you're going to brush up on your reading, buttonjockey308, may I suggest "Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies" by Jared Diamond.
I think you'll find it quite interesting.Damn, Bryan, it's nine words, you slackass no-account no bootstrap couldn't pour warm piss out of a boot if the instructions were printed on the heel malingering commie lap dog.

[jjimm]

Contrapuntal, am I getting the impression you couldn't quote the right post if your life depended on it? ;)

[Monty]

I appreciate all of the colorful uses of my handle, really, goes a long way to prove a point. :rolleyes:

So, you should be happy that I didn't resort to that. To forestall a comment about my earlier use of the word butt, feel free to look it up in a dictionary.

That said, it seems I've much to learn about the intricacies of world politics, and thankfully, I've got a place like this, and people who are willing to point me in the right direction.

Yes, you do. And not only about politics, but also about biology, sociology, economics, and logic, just to name a few others.

I've been too busy with my life and everything in it the last few years to expand my worldview. I suppose the drive-by information that came from what little reading I DID do, wasn't enough, so back to the llibrary I go.

It's actually not your reading that's in question here, AFAICT; it's your comprehension.

Two things FTR though... 1. I DO know what bastard means, just faster fingers than thoughts (like you didn't know that).

While that particular word is my least favorite word in the English language, I do recognize that it has more than one meaning. I got the impression that the detractor who used that word to decribe you in the sense not usually designating the offspring of unmarried individuals.

2. I am an Investigator, yes, and a Firefighter, I manage telecommunications, and i've been a patrol officer. I've been in public service for 15 years with a spotless record. What my politics might be have ZERO bearing on my job, the execution of my duties and the people that I serve and protect.

It's not your politics that bring doubt on your abilities for your purported employ, but rather your cognitive abilites.

Thanks all.
You're quite welcome

[Contrapuntal]

Contrapuntal, am I getting the impression you couldn't quote the right post if your life depended on it? ;)I quoted the post I wanted to. You sort of have to go back to the post dahfisheroo quoted to follow the string, as it were.

I don't know why you don't get it. It makeds perfect sense to me. ;)

Have I buggered up something before? You folks need to keep me up to date.

[jlzania]

Contrapuntal- I quoted the post I wanted to.
As the person quoted, you may now color me highly confused.
(Which is a pale shade of blue, I think ).

[Monty]

That said, it seems I've much to learn about the intricacies of world politics, and thankfully, I've got a place like this, and people who are willing to point me in the right direction.

I've been too busy with my life and everything in it the last few years to expand my worldview.
Here's a little video for you (http://brd3.chosun.com/brd/view.html?tb=BEMIL100&pn=1&num=1078). I'm sure you can squeeze it into your busy schedule. When you get done watching it, tell me if those who were born into that society chose what happened to them? I'm especially interested in your answer as it regards the babies born in the camps.

[jjimm]

As the person quoted, you may now color me highly confused.Me too.

As in me too stupid to get it.

[fisha]

Ok, I was whooshed. Damn, and I was spoiling for a fight, too.

In the depths of utter public humilation, maybe I'll wander over to Blanche's house and watch her play the peek a boo vampire game. That'll make me feel better...

Damn, you got me, Bryan.

[Contrapuntal]

As the person quoted, you may now color me highly confused.
(Which is a pale shade of blue, I think ).What is wrong with you people? No mind readers in the bunch? Damn. OK, the non Readers Digest version follows.



Three words. "Guns, Germs, and Steel." You may like it, buttonjockey. Is it an excuse for the inequities of the world? Noooooo, but it may explain some things. You said you are willing to learn, this is an easy first step.


Three words. "Guns, Germs, and Steel."


That's actually four words, you innumerate unevolved economic parasite second-hander.








]That's actually four words, you innumerate unevolved economic parasite second-hander.

Well hello. Bryan is it? Pleased to make your acquaintance. Is vitriolic blathering so early in the morning one of your more charming traits? Can I look forward to more bilious spewing and inanity from you in the future? Is it your trademark? Or are you just bored with the thread, decided to poke me, see what happens?




Well hello. Bryan is it? Pleased to make your acquaintance. Is vitriolic blathering so early in the morning one of your more charming traits? Can I look forward to more bilious spewing and inanity from you in the future? Is it your trademark? Or are you just bored with the thread, decided to poke me, see what happens?

Whooossshhh.



If you're going to brush up on your reading, buttonjockey308, may I suggest "Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies" by Jared Diamond.
I think you'll find it quite interesting.Damn, Bryan, it's nine words, you slackass no-account no bootstrap couldn't pour warm piss out of a boot if the instructions were printed on the heel malingering commie lap dog.

[jjimm]

Ok.

[Contrapuntal]

In the depths of utter public humilation, maybe I'll wander over to Blanche's house and watch her play the peek a boo vampire game. That'll make me feel better...Too late. Mommy says it's time for her nap.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7641513&postcount=162

[jlzania]

Thanks Contrapuntal.
I was feeling even less in the loop than usual.

[Frylock]

So, you should be happy that I didn't resort to that. To forestall a comment about my earlier use of the word butt, feel free to look it up in a dictionary.



Yes, you do. And not only about politics, but also about biology, sociology, economics, and logic, just to name a few others.



It's actually not your reading that's in question here, AFAICT; it's your comprehension.



While that particular word is my least favorite word in the English language, I do recognize that it has more than one meaning. I got the impression that the detractor who used that word to decribe you in the sense not usually designating the offspring of unmarried individuals.



It's not your politics that bring doubt on your abilities for your purported employ, but rather your cognitive abilites.


You're quite welcome

Geez, that was harsh.

Jockey was trying to concede.

-FrL-

[Frylock]

Geez, that was harsh.

Jockey was trying to concede.

-FrL-

(Though Jockey himself probably wouldn't like that word used to describe what he was trying to do, but I couldn't think of a better one.)

[Contrapuntal]

Geez, that was harsh.

Jockey was trying to concede.

-FrL-Seconded. Buttonjockey, take the time to read the books suggested to you. It is significant that you are willing to entertain new ideas.


Think on this. Slaves in pre Civil War America endured horrible conditions, but eventually won their freedom. Do you think for a minute that that would have happened if the entire country had opposed it? It took a combined effort of free citizens and slaves and a distastrous war to accomplish emancipation, as well as another hundred years or so before basic rights were granted to blacks. This in a country where freedom is the basis of government, and natural resources were abundant.

Throwing of the shackles of tyranny is not as easy as you assume.

[DrDeth]

Geez, that was harsh.

Jockey was trying to concede.

-FrL-
And, it takes some guts around here to admit this. Lay off him, dudes. If he comes back later, with the same wrongheaded world-view, then lambaste him again. But this last post shows guts and a modicum of learning ability.

[Bryan Ekers]

Damn, Bryan, it's nine words, you slackass no-account no bootstrap couldn't pour warm piss out of a boot if the instructions were printed on the heel malingering commie lap dog.
Hmph, this from a guy who thinks "capitalism" is TYPING LIKE THIS.

[Monty]

FrL: I'll happily "lay off" buttonjockey308. But I'm incredibly curious how you would feel having a patrol officer working the beat where you live, shop, or work and that officer thinks that "you have it coming" for any bad things that happen to you because "you choose to live" or work or shop in that area.

[Contrapuntal]

FrL: I'll happily "lay off" buttonjockey308. But I'm incredibly curious how you would feel having a patrol officer working the beat where you live, shop, or work and that officer thinks that "you have it coming" for any bad things that happen to you because "you choose to live" or work or shop in that area.I have no intention of defending him, but did he say that? I must have missed it.

[Frylock]

FrL: I'll happily "lay off" buttonjockey308. But I'm incredibly curious how you would feel having a patrol officer working the beat where you live, shop, or work and that officer thinks that "you have it coming" for any bad things that happen to you because "you choose to live" or work or shop in that area.

Why, I wouldn't be very happy about it all.

Relevance?

-FrL-

[Monty]

AFAIC, there's exactly zero difference between his stated viewpoint and that attitude.

[Monty]

Oh, yeah. I forgot to name the attitude in question: Blaming the Victim.

[Frylock]

Oh, yeah. I forgot to name the attitude in question: Blaming the Victim.

Right, that was his attitude in his first several posts. My point is that later on he tried to concede to you he might be wrong after all, but you kept fighting him even then.

-FrL-

[Uzi]

A suggestion, jockey: you're viewing social change as happening at a societal level, and viewing obligations, rights, and responsibilities as occurring at this level. That's a bad idea. Societies are a useful fiction: they represent trends in behaviors among humans. The correct level at which to view obligations, rights, and responsibilities is at the level of the individual.
l

Unfortunately, you are wrong. Many societies view rights at the group level, not the individual. A member of the group may sacrifice themselves (their wishes, desires, or even their life) for the betterment of the group. What is important is that the group survives, not the individual. It is a mistake many people make who grow up in predominantly western societies that are mainly individualist in nature vs. collectivist as is the majority of the world.

The collectivist nature is what makes change so difficult. There is immense pressure to keep the status quo. People who wish to change take the chance of being alienated from the group. This is a very bad thing for someone in this type of culture. People in individualist societies don't understand the pressure that can be brought to bear upon people who don't conform to the groups wishes. It is only when you are the leader or have great influence within the group can you attempt to make changes. But by doing so you could jeapardize your standing.

[Contrapuntal]

AFAIC, there's exactly zero difference between his stated viewpoint and that attitude.Look again. Where has he said that a rape victim, or a burglary victim, or a victim of any crime does not deserve police protection and support? He has at least twice made a distinction between indivduals and societies. He likes our society. Why would he be a bad cop?

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Unfortunately, you are wrong. Many societies view rights at the group level, not the individual.
No, they don't: societies have no brain cells, no neurons, and no ability to view anything. There are individuals who live within societies who view rights at the group level, not the individual level. This is an unethical way to approach the world.

Yes, I know, this is so terribly ethnocentric of me. I don't care. I'm not a fan of moral relativism; and if I'm wrong, then I'm wrong everywhere, not just for some society that believes (for example) in executing the infant children of a traitor, because crimes are committed by families and not by individuals.

A member of the group may sacrifice themselves (their wishes, desires, or even their life) for the betterment of the group. What is important is that the group survives, not the individual. It is a mistake many people make who grow up in predominantly western societies that are mainly individualist in nature vs. collectivist as is the majority of the world.
Actually, I think the mistake many people who grow up in predominantly western societies make these days is to believe that all approaches to ethics are equally useful or valid,a nd I think that's the mistake you're making.
The collectivist nature is what makes change so difficult. There is immense pressure to keep the status quo. People who wish to change take the chance of being alienated from the group. This is a very bad thing for someone in this type of culture. People in individualist societies don't understand the pressure that can be brought to bear upon people who don't conform to the groups wishes. It is only when you are the leader or have great influence within the group can you attempt to make changes. But by doing so you could jeapardize your standing.
I understand all that. I'm not arguing that there's no such thing as peer pressure, or a social pressure to conform.

I'm arguing that no rights exist, objectively, at the group level. Individuals who comprise a group have rights, but groups themselves do not. Nor do groups have obligations.

Daniel

[Uzi]

LOD, I'm not arguing that it is right, I'm only telling you the way it is.
It explains why a dictator doesn't exist in isolation. He has his group which supports him and they try to exclude other groups from gaining power. Why don't they want the other group to have power? Because it dilutes their own power. It is why once the other group does gain power they usually are no better than the guy they just replaced. The only difference is which group is being persecuted at any particular moment. Only when the underlying culture changes can things improve.