Book discussion: THE CHRONICLES OF THOMAS COVENANT

[Skald the Rhymer]

New week, new book discussion. We got a healthy response to the Chronicles of Narnia thread, but maybe a bit more regimented than I'd hoped; it was probaby the fault of that moron who began by posting ten insanely detailed questions, which made answering easy but rather limited creativity. So I won't be so anal this time.

Anywhistle--let's start talking about everyone's favorite--or least favorite--Unbeliever, Thomas Covenant. I'll start with just a quintet of discussion points this time, then add more if the discussion seems to lag:

1. Okay, there's hardly any point in asking whether you look Thomas Covenant. He's scum--selfish, self-centered, raping scum. So what would you say the point is in making such a man the protagonist? If you chance to meet Tom on the road, is the moral thing to do to kill him immediately,

2. How effective is the device of questioning the reality of the land? How does TC's leprosy and VSE play into this? Does it make the story more intriguing or more irritating, or something else?

3. In what ways would you call Donaldson's work a reaction to Lord of the Rings? Is Stephen worthy of polishing the professor's spats?

4. "Saltheart Foamfollower." :rolleyes: "Drool Rockheart." :o "Kevin." :dubious: What the hell was Donaldson smoking when he came up with these names? :confused:
And is Skald overdoing it with the Smileys again?

5. Talk about Donaldson's strengths, his weaknesses, and anything else I would have brought up if I were smarter. :wally

Have at it!

[Thudlow Boink]

Disclaimer: I haven't read the books since I was in high school, a little over 20 years ago. Though the fact that I remember reading them as well as I do after all this time probably says something good for them. Somewhere around the house here is my copy of Lord Foul's Bane with a bookmark about halfway through it, from when I tried to re-read it a couple of years ago and never got around to finish it—someday I may yet get back to it. It wasn't unreadable, but neither was it un-put-down-able.

The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant was one of the things that I read after I finished The Lord of the Rings and was looking around for something else with the same appeal. I'd say Donadson did a pretty good job of being reminiscent of Tolkien without just copying him (the way, say, Terry Brooks did in Sword of Shanara). There were some nods to Tolkien (Donaldson had "Berek Half-hand," Tolkien had "Beren One-hand"—coincidence?), but there was more originality than in all too many other examples of the Tolkienesque Epic Fantasy genre.

The best thing about the books, IMHO and to the best of my recollection, is the Land itself. One of the reasons to read fantasy is to spend some time in another world, and Donaldson gave us a nifty one to explore. Donaldson's Land may be one of the better-realized Fantasy Worlds, and I grew quite fond of it, so that it was quite wrenching to see how it had been, well, wounded in The Wounded Land, the first book of the second trilogy.

It is perhaps for this reason that The Wounded Land was my favorite of the six volumes that comprise the First and Second Chronicles: the way Donaldson showed me a place that I had come to love, now sick and wrong and needing to be set right, gave a sense of poignancy and urgency to the story. On the other hand, I didn't like the rest of the Second Chronicles nearly as much. This may have been largely due to their focus on Linden Avery, a character I found less interesting and appealing than Covenant himself.

As for Thomas Covenant and his scumminess, well, as the Chronicles open, he's in pretty rough circumstances: he's numb, shunned, abandoned, impotent in more ways than one, and only by being very self-aware and self-centered can he hope to keep from degenerating into an even worse state. The Land healed him physically, but can it heal him spiritually? SoHow effective is the device of questioning the reality of the land? How does TC's leprosy and VSE play into this? Does it make the story more intriguing or more irritating, or something else?I'd say (going from my fuzzy memory) that all of this was both intriguing and interesting, and only partially successful.

[Hamlet]

The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant was one of the things that I read after I finished The Lord of the Rings and was looking around for something else with the same appeal.I think Donaldson, more than any other writer, benefitted from the popularity of the Ring triology, just for that reason. After reading Tolkien, I too went looking for books and read the Covenant series. Recently (about 5 years ago), I reread them. Boy, a lot has changed in those intervening years.

Upon first read, I liked the series, but that was only because of the great things in it. Foamfollower, the Land, Mhorim (Mhoram?), and Hile Troy made the series for me, and it was enough for me to recommend it to others. His writing was fine, and some of his ideas were great, so I liked them. The Second Chronicles were stupider, less enjoyable, but they had less Covenant, so I was happy.

Perhaps it was because I was so new to, and so excited about, reading this genre, that I overlooked the multitude of problems. Perhaps it is my own maturity level. But re-reading both Chronicles, I absolutely hated them. The things that bothered me on first reading (Covenant's disbelief in the Land (a major theme) was just stupid, the surrender of the Giants, the rape of Lena, everything about Elena, etc.) made it painful to read it again. I don't mind books where the protagonist is a jerk, but it seemed like Donaldson went out his way to make Covenant so vile that I questioned his entire reasonings. Needless to say, I didn't even reread the second Chronicles after that (thank God, 'cause Linden was a horrible character). I hated them.

1. Okay, there's hardly any point in asking whether you look Thomas Covenant. He's scum--selfish, self-centered, raping scum. So what would you say the point is in making such a man the protagonist?One of the knocks on LOTR, is that it is quite simplistic, the good guys are brave, strong and true, and the bad guys are really really bad. I'll give Donaldson kudos for adding more distasteful characteristics to Covenant, but he really went overboard on it. One reasons distateful characters are possible as a protaganist is that there is the search for redemption. I got none of that out of Covenant, hell he didn't even believe the Land was real, so I kept hoping for him to die. Sure he's the Land's savior, but there is no interesting redemption.

2. How effective is the device of questioning the reality of the land? How does TC's leprosy and VSE play into this? Does it make the story more intriguing or more irritating, or something else?My God it was annoying, overdone, and stupid. As a theme, it never clicked for me, and I think it hurt the books because I so much wanted the Land to be real. Dumb, Dumb, dumb.

3. In what ways would you call Donaldson's work a reaction to Lord of the Rings? Is Stephen worthy of polishing the professor's spats?No, he's not.

[Thudlow Boink]

I'd say (going from my fuzzy memory) that all of this was both intriguing and interesting, and only partially successful.Oops, meant to say, both intriguing and irritating. Yes, irritating.

[Boulter's Canary]

Oops, meant to say, both intriguing and irritating. Yes, irritating.

The book would have been a lot better if somebody had taken his thesaurus away and burnt it.

I prefer the Gap series myself.

[Skald the Rhymer]

The book would have been a lot better if somebody had taken his thesaurus away and burnt it.
What you don 't approve of the word telic ? :dubious:

[GingerOfTheNorth]

I found Thomas Covenant at around 17 or 18 years old. I loved it. A few years ago, we found the chronicles at a bookstore again and they came home with me, but then the baby came along and I haven't had much of a chance to read since that time. I think now I can look back and recognize what a flawed character he is, and how foolish Lena (?) and Elena were.

I stand by my love for the Bloodguard.

[LawMonkey]

Picked the first of these up a while ago and, sad to say, I couldn't make it past the first fifty pages. This may be due to the fact that I'm pretty burnt out on fantasy lately, but when I got to the following passage at the end of chapter three, I rolled my eyes and put the book away.

Say to the Council of Lords, and to High Lord Prothall son of Dwillian that the uttermost limit of their span of days upon the Land is seven times seven years from this present time. Before the end of those days are numbered, I will have the command of life and death in my hand. And as a token that what I say is the one word of truth, tell them this: Drool Rockworm, Cavewight of Mount Thunder, has found the Staff of Law, which was lost ten times a hundred years ago by Keven at the Ritual of Desecration. ... Without it, they will not be able to resist me for seven years, and my complete victory will be achieved six times seven years earlier than it would be else.

Bolding mine. If it weren't all so deathly serious, it'd be a fine attempt at high camp. It's so overwrought and melodramatic and rife with cliche that I nearly gagged on the reading of it. The whole 'x times y years' thing was what really tipped me over the edge--but that was just the last straw.

Having heard so many folks rave about these books, I'm going to keep my copy around, just in case I come into a more charitable mood one day, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Bobotheoptimist]

1. Okay, there's hardly any point in asking whether you look Thomas Covenant. He's scum--selfish, self-centered, raping scum. So what would you say the point is in making such a man the protagonist? If you chance to meet Tom on the road, is the moral thing to do to kill him immediately,
No... The Tom in our world is/was just trying to get by. His selfish, self-centered wife walked out exactly when he needed her, he can't rely on anyone for anything. And Tom in the Land was dreaming, or so he thought. He later demonstrated time and again that he did care about other people, occasionally.
He was usually a prick, tho...

2. How effective is the device of questioning the reality of the land? How does TC's leprosy and VSE play into this? Does it make the story more intriguing or more irritating, or something else?
The first time I read it (20 years ago) the constant denial just annoyed me, but recently I re-read this and it's the only thing that could possibly keep him "sane" when he returned to this world. If he ever dropped that unbelief, it would be a totally different story.

3. In what ways would you call Donaldson's work a reaction to Lord of the Rings? Is Stephen worthy of polishing the professor's spats?
I don't feel Donaldson ripped off ol' whatsisface. LotR was interesting, but he hardly invented the magic ring, for heavens sake! As this (http://theland.antgear.com/tolkiens_ring.html) guy points out, Tolkien hardly invented the concept.

4. "Saltheart Foamfollower." "Drool Rockheart." "Kevin." What the hell was Donaldson smoking when he came up with these names?
Indeed...

5. Talk about Donaldson's strengths, his weaknesses, and anything else I would have brought up if I were smarter.
Donaldson all-powerful thesaurus makes up for a few weaknesses in the stories. If Tolkien was a little more Donaldson like and a little less Norse-saga like, I might be able to read his works. :)

[ITR champion]

I read the First Chronicles when I was in college. I loved them then and I still do; I still classify Donaldson among the top ranks of epic fantasy writers, along with Dunsany, Eddison, Tolkien, LeGuin, and Vance. In the Second Chronicles, I've read only The Wounded Land and I enjoyed it, but was not overwhelmed as I was with the first trilogy. Donaldson thought he was finished after The Power that Preserves. The First Chronicles were intended as a complete series, so I'll focus on those three books from here on out.

Firstly, in case anyone did not know, Donaldson in a Catholic of very strong beliefs, and those beliefs inform all of his writing. The First Chronicles of Thomas Covenant is an allegory, telling the Christian story: the beginning in a state of perfection, the Fall, the redemption. That sequence happens three times: in Thomas Covenant's body, in Thomas Covenant's mind, and in the Land. The point of the story, of course, is that these three things are all linked together. The Land is a metaphor for his body and soul. Lord Foul represents the creeping force of his infection, and the accompanying corruption of his soul. ("Foul", we'll recall, originally meant "infected".) When Lord Foul first appears, his message is that the Land can resist him for at most forty-nine years, and then also that Drool Rockworm will destroy it in two years. Correspondingly, Covenant can surrender to his disease in a short time, or resist it and live out a natural life span. In the end, he defeats Lord Foul's prediction and earns eternal life for himself and for the Land.

1. Okay, there's hardly any point in asking whether you look Thomas Covenant. He's scum--selfish, self-centered, raping scum. So what would you say the point is in making such a man the protagonist? If you chance to meet Tom on the road, is the moral thing to do to kill him immediately?

A good novel must create a conflict that is more intense, more frightening, and generally larger than the conflicts of everyday, humdrum life. The internal conflict within Covenant is a more dramatic conflict than that within a normal person. In short, he's more of an asshole than anyone else. But of course the success of the story rests on the cause of his behavior. Donaldson is carrying out the writer's duty of making us see the entire life of another person. The people reading these books presumably have never been Lepers and have never been hated by everyone they formerly loved (I hope), so when you read this trilogy you see a part of the human story you've never seen before. Maybe even a part that you didn't know existed.

3. In what ways would you call Donaldson's work a reaction to Lord of the Rings? Is Stephen worthy of polishing the professor's spats?

Other than the minor homages, I'd say not much. Tolkien was famously anti-metaphor.

4. "Saltheart Foamfollower." "Drool Rockheart." "Kevin." What the hell was Donaldson smoking when he came up with these names?

Individual opinions may vary, but I like the names. The directness tells us that these characters and places are prototypes, and help make the story larger than life.

5. Talk about Donaldson's strengths, his weaknesses, and anything else I would have brought up if I were smarter.

Anyone who quits early on is going to miss out on the big action scenes, which are where Donaldson truly shines. His talent for handling a scene where hundreds or even thousands are clashing on a grand scale is unmatched among fantasy writers. He doesn't get caught up in describing the action blow-by-blow. Rather he captures how the entire battle is flowing in emotional terms.

[Anaamika]

Excuse me, can I ask a question? I just started reading Lord Foul's Bane; is that the wrong place to start? I was unware it was a series. Can someone list the books, in order?

Or can I go ahead and start with Lord Foul's Bane?

Thanks.

[jayjay]

Excuse me, can I ask a question? I just started reading Lord Foul's Bane; is that the wrong place to start? I was unware it was a series. Can someone list the books, in order?

Or can I go ahead and start with Lord Foul's Bane?

Thanks.

Yes, LFB is the first novel. The other two (in order) are The Illearth War and The Power That Preserves.

[Anaamika]

Ok, cool! I'll read it and get back to you.

[Scissorjack]

I think that Lord Foul needed a better press agent. I mean, come on - what kind of arch-villain calls himself Lord Foul? Why not just call yourself Utter Cunt and have done with it? Oh, yeah, and the telic thing.

[jayjay]

I think that Lord Foul needed a better press agent. I mean, come on - what kind of arch-villain calls himself Lord Foul? Why not just call yourself Utter Cunt and have done with it? Oh, yeah, and the telic thing.

Not to mention that apparently all the troubles in the series (and the Land in general) could have been avoided if the Land's God would only have checked his work before he released the project...

[Bobotheoptimist]

Firstly, in case anyone did not know, Donaldson in a Catholic of very strong beliefs, and those beliefs inform all of his writing. The First Chronicles of Thomas Covenant is an allegory, telling the Christian story: ..... In the end, he defeats Lord Foul's prediction and earns eternal life for himself and for the Land.Did you pick this up from the books, or from outside sources? I normally would avoid an author that tells the Christian story in allegory, but even after reading about Donaldson's beliefs I don't see much of it in these books. I don't doubt that he's doing exactly what you're saying, but he does it in such a way that non-Christians may not even notice. I sure didn't pick up any moral lessons from these nor felt any urge to convert, but if it makes Donaldson feel good more power to him.




I feel that I'm missing some commas in the above, so here they are plus a few extras - ,,,,,,

[Lightray]

First off, Donaldson was severely handicapped by his poor writing skills with Lord Foul's Bane. His plotting, pacing, and other skills improved in later books, but in LFB they were pants.

I firmly believe that in great part the virulent reaction against the Covenant books is because Donaldson specifically intended to deconstruct the fantasy genre based on Lord of the Rings. The Land is set-up to be the perfect fantasy world that needs a hero to save it -- and Thomas Covenant is set-up as a slap in the face to the reader who wants to insert him/herself as that hero saving the Land.

As you read through the books, the depiction of the Land is there to lure in fantasy readers whose own fantasy would be to actually wake up in their fantasy world as some fated hero. And Covenant is there, obnoxiously throwing back in their face how foolish such a fantasy is. It's no coincidence that he's got a ring like Lord of the Rings has a ring; it's a deliberate evocation of the LotR genre.

Covenant's leprosy, VSE, and obnoxious personality are absolutely necessary for what Donaldson is trying to carry off. Without the real threat of backsliding in his vigilence against his leprosy, Covenant has no rationale that the reader will accept for his continued Unbelief. The reader wants Covenant to believe in the Land, because the Land is written so that is what the reader would want. This is why Covenant keeps telling parables about leprosy -- so that the reader is forced to confront what could happen to Covenant if he gives in, and believes, even a little bit.

That said, I don't think that Covenant's Unbelief is handled consistently through the first trilogy -- and is dropped completely by the second. Donaldson had a good idea in dropping Gildenfire out of the narrative. But I think that the inclusion of Hile Troy does serious damage to the question of whether the Land is all a delusion in Covenant's head.

I've found, in discussing Covenant, that people have a hard time getting past the "he's not a hero!" issue. Even referring to him as the "protagonist" doesn't help. He's the point-of-view character, but it seems that most people can't get past Covenant's obnoxious personality, and his actions (e.g., the rape scene). At the same time, they're usually fond of the heroes-cast-as-heroes characters: Lord Mhoram, Saltheart, Bannor. They just don't like feeling that Donaldson is trying to force them to sympathize with the unsympathetic Covenant -- probably because they recognize that Covenant is being written to rip apart the reader's own fantasy.

The thing is, in the end, that Covenant does turn out to be a heroic protagonist. It's a redemption story, and Covenant not only ends up doing the right thing, but ends up doing it just like Frodo would -- by stupidly going to the heart of his supernaturally powerful enemy's stronghold, with almost no hope of survival or success.

At the end of a deconstruction and criticism of fantasy novels, Donaldson yanks the rug out and makes the point that the important thing about fantasies isn't that you believe in their validity -- but that you accept their validity as much as the validity of the real world. After kicking the fantasy genre in the teeth through three books, Donaldson turns out to be a softie.

[Clothahump]

I read the first two, hoping in vain that they would improve. They didn't and I haven't read any of the others.

[Dob]

Okay, there's hardly any point in asking whether you look Thomas Covenant. He's scum--selfish, self-centered, raping scum. So what would you say the point is in making such a man the protagonist? If you chance to meet Tom on the road, is the moral thing to do to kill him immediately,

Is he a raping scum? If you are married and dream of having sex with a supermodel, are you cheating on your wife? He thought the world was a dream, he was raping himself, more than anything. However, he is an ass, but, the man caught leprosy (btw, I read somewhere that Donaldson's father had leprosy) lost his wife and kid, was treated like a freakin outcast by his town and everyone. How would you act when all the sudden people worship you and want you to save them after being your worlds shit heel for so long?


2. How effective is the device of questioning the reality of the land? How does TC's leprosy and VSE play into this? Does it make the story more intriguing or more irritating, or something else?

He has to question the Land, if he doesn't then he really is a scumbag, cowardly, rapist. But by questioning the Land the story is as much as the fears and demons people carry on the inside, and less about how you would react being given unlimited power and asked to save a world.


3. In what ways would you call Donaldson's work a reaction to Lord of the Rings? Is Stephen worthy of polishing the professor's spats?

I love LoTR, it was my first high fantasy (same for most of us I expect) but, it's really not that well written and the characters are thin as the paper he wrote them upon. It's the imagery and history of LoTR that I thinks draws so many people to love that world. And say what you will about Donaldson, he created a Land that invokes great images and carries a storied history with it.


4. "Saltheart Foamfollower." "Drool Rockheart." "Kevin." What the hell was Donaldson smoking when he came up with these names?

Whats the big deal here? A couple hunderd years ago people's last names were usually a description of their trade, i.e. "Smith", "Thatcher", etc...


5. Talk about Donaldson's strengths, his weaknesses, and anything else I would have brought up if I were smarter.

[Bobotheoptimist]

the man caught leprosy (btw, I read somewhere that Donaldson's father had leprosy)
IIRC, his father worked with lepers - missionary doctor or somesuch.

Leprosy is curable, but it's a long process (I think, ianad), so if my impression of the timeline is correct (he was only a few months diagnosed) he would still be vulnerable for the first chronicles. Seems that Donaldson made a big deal about Tom freaking about missing his medication and that was part of the reason he couldn't accept the Land as real. If he got back and believed any of it, his leprosy could return.
I think the meds have improved since then.

The Giants and their fanciful names are not that annoying to me, they aren't really speaking their language... A translation of my name would be something hokey like "Brightfame Praisegod", for crying out loud. (Brightfame... great Og, who came up with THAT?)
The cavewights tho - "Rockworm" could well be considered a compliment to a cave dwelling race, but "Drool"?

[Skald the Rhymer]

The Giants and their fanciful names are not that annoying to me, they aren't really speaking their language... A translation of my name would be something hokey like "Brightfame Praisegod", for crying out loud. (Brightfame... great Og, who came up with THAT?)
The cavewights tho - "Rockworm" could well be considered a compliment to a cave dwelling race, but "Drool"?

The names aren't very euphonious, though; "Drool" in particular calls undue attention to itself. But the one that really bugs me is Kevin. KEVIN.

[Lightray]

IANAD, either, but I think that treatments of leprosy have really improved from when Donaldson wrote the books. At the time, it wasnt' something you'd expect to recover from.

And Covenant's own experience played into how fanatic he was about VSE, etc. That's one of the points of his telling the parable about the leper woman with the beautiful smile while passing through Revelwood -- it shows what Covenant expects would happen to him if he put the Land first before his own leprosy.

(the other point of the parable being, of course, Covenant pointing out that the Land's beautiful smile was only a front for its own problems)

The cavewights tho - "Rockworm" could well be considered a compliment to a cave dwelling race, but "Drool"?
Weren't the cavewights basically enslaved by the ur-viles, though? Naming your slave "Drool" is no worse than "Prissy". Drool wasn't really in charge until he dug up the Illearth Stone (and even then, was still Foul's patsy).

[Anaamika]

The names aren't very euphonious, though; "Drool" in particular calls undue attention to itself. But the one that really bugs me is Kevin. KEVIN.
I'm only 50 or so pages into the book, maybe not even that much. I haven't reached this rape scene*. but Kevin bugs the hell out of me, too.

And there's a lot of pompous speeches....and I felt the same way about Lord Foul. Let's make it clear he's a bad guy, eh? And I haven't read it so maybe he'll turn out to be a good guy, but doesn't seem like it.

*For once, remarkably, I don't care about spoilers for some reason. Normally I won't touch a thread with spoilers in it if I want to read it, but this one doesn't bother me.

[Bobotheoptimist]

The names aren't very euphonious, though; "Drool" in particular calls undue attention to itself. But the one that really bugs me is Kevin. KEVIN.
Say to the Council of Lords, and to High Lord Joe son of Hank that the uttermost limit of their span of days upon the Land...
And as a token that what I say is the one word of truth, tell them this: Mark Smith, Cavewight of Mount Thunder, has found the Staff of Law, which was lost ten times a hundred years ago by Kevin at the Ritual of Desecration.
Thus spake Lord Steve the Disliker!

Eh, works for me... ;)


If nothing else, Donaldson has caused me to learn a little about Hansens Disease (link (http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dbmd/diseaseinfo/hansens_t.htm) ) and so played a small part in the fight against ignorance.

[Dob]

...but Kevin bugs the hell out of me, too.

What about Kevin bugs everyone? Not grand enough?

[Anaamika]

What about Kevin bugs everyone? Not grand enough?
For me, yes! Why am I reading a fantasy novel about Kevin? I could read the Horse Whisperer or some crap like that..

[Skald the Rhymer]

What about Kevin bugs everyone? Not grand enough?

Exactly. It takes you out of the story for no good reason. Whether you like names like Drool Rockworm & Saltheart Foamfollower, they at least contribute to the sense that the story is taking place in another, very different world than our own. By using a name like "Kevin," Donaldson undercuts tht illusion, and not in a good way. It would work if he were writing a straight-up, intentionally humorous parody, but as it is it just knocks the reader out of the tale.

[Astroboy14]

Try pronouncing it "keh-VEEN"... that way you won't have the mental picture of Macaulay Culkin slapping aftershave on his face.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Try pronouncing it "keh-VEEN"... that way you won't have the mental picture of Macaulay Culkin slapping aftershave on his face.

What?

[Dob]

But having the main characters name Thomas doesn't bother you?

The ficklness of the sdmb is mysterious and deep :)

[Anaamika]

But having the main characters name Thomas doesn't bother you?

The ficklness of the sdmb is mysterious and deep :)
No, of course not. Who goes by Thomas in real life? I mean, I don't like it that much, but I can deal with it better. If it was "Tom" or "Tommy" it would be way more annoying.

I have to admit, the names in LOTR were beautiful. Galadriel, Legolas, Aragorn, Lothlorien....those are beautiful names. I had a crush on a boy named Kevin when I was like 8. Not mystical.

[Skald the Rhymer]

But having the main characters name Thomas doesn't bother you?

The ficklness of the sdmb is mysterious and deep :)

Thomas comes from the "real" world, though, or rather the analogue to our world in his universe. Of COURSE he should have an ordinary name. But naming the great legendary figure of the Land "Kevin" is like naming the viewpoint character "Iofur Byrnison."

[Acsenray]

There has one thing that has always puzzled me about this series -- the use of Hindu/Buddhist terms for the names of the ravers -- moksha, turiya, and samadhi. In Hinduism and Buddhism, these are all very positive things -- but Donaldson uses them as alternative names for Satansfist, Fleshharrower, and Kinslaughterer. Is this supposed to signify anything? Donaldson's hatred of Hindu concepts? Or did he just open up a dictionary and take terms that were unfamiliar to him to come up with names of things in his stories?

[Dob]

I had a crush on a boy named Kevin when I was like 8. Not mystical.

Did he pull your hair alot? Call you names? Could we perhaps be transferring? :)

I agree the names in LoTR were more lyrical and mystical, no argument there. But remember that Kevin was both on of the biggest sucesses and failures in the Land. I always thought giving him such a bland, boring name like Kevin was a nod toward his history. Who would have thought someone named Kevin would end up desacrating the Land for centruies?

[Anaamika]

Remember that I haven't read the book yet, just come across his name - and hated it from the get-go. Yanked me right out of the story to go "Kevin???" Plus what Skald said - it was OK for Thomas to have a real name, although in that case Covenant gets weird.

Kevin is like eating Gorgonzola when it's clearly Brie time, baby.

As for the IRL Kevin, no, he was a sweetheart. :)

[Lightray]

Really, the "Kevin" name read like a shout-out, to me. Like Donaldson had named the guy after someone. Probably someone he had a particularly low opinion of, since Kevin Landwaster was an idiot in a Land full of idiots, really.

It's odd, though, that Donaldson left the name in, with it being such an off-note when he's deliberately trying to suck in readers expecting "Aragorn" or "Galadriel" and who're jarred by real-world references in their fantasy-world novel.

Everywhere else, Donaldson's real-world references were there to jar people out of the overblown fantasy backdrop, they weren't part of the overblown fantasy backdrop.

[muzzynyc]

I don't think there's any textual support for this (it's been years since I've read them, although this thread makes me want to re-read them now) but I always thought that perhaps the name "Kevin" was possibly because he came from the Real World, like Thomas.

Oh, and like I said it's been years but there are so many images from the books that have stayed with me forever -- his lifting of the dagger out of the lake, the breaking of the rule of death, the horrifying reavers murdering the giants one by one... I loved the books both times I read them (last time right out of college).

Not that I think any of the criticism is completely off-base. But to dismiss the books out of hand as being awful is being somewhat unfair. I love LOTR but, c'mon, Tolkien's writing is beyond purple in places.

[Antinor01]

I enjoyed the set and have re-read them several times. Donaldson's main failing in my mind is that everything takes way too long. The reason I don't read them back to back anymore is I can't handle 2000+ pages before Covenent becomes a half way decent person.

[Skald the Rhymer]

I don't think there's any textual support for this (it's been years since I've read them, although this thread makes me want to re-read them now) but I always thought that perhaps the name "Kevin" was possibly because he came from the Real World, like Thomas.


That was my first thought when I read the name, but I don't see any textual support either. And it bothers me that Covenant never remarks on the oddity of a common name from his world being a name used in the Land.


Not that I think any of the criticism is completely off-base. But to dismiss the books out of hand as being awful is being somewhat unfair.


I don't know if you meant me with that, muzzynyc, but I've been worrying that I came off as unfairly and unduly critical of the books in my OP. I didn't mean too. I rather like the Covenant books, though I'm with the crowd that calls the first trilogy--especially Lord Foul's Bane --are his worst work. I came to Donaldson through his short story collection Daughter of Regals & Other Tales, the title story of which is simply beautiful. I'm glad I read that first; it gave me the patience to wade through the drek in some of his earlier work.


I love LOTR but, c'mon, Tolkien's writing is beyond purple in places.


Them's fighting words. Were I god-king I'd have dispatched the GEFBFEVSWHMs to teach you how best to speak of the professor.

Course if I were God-King I'd be too busy to post on the SMDB, so ti's all good.

[Scissorjack]

What about Kevin bugs everyone? Not grand enough?

Kevin manifestly fails the Skywalker Test for naming fantasy and SF heroes.

[muzzynyc]

I don't know if you meant me with that, muzzynyc
Oh, not at all. I was just swinging slightly wildly as there was some criticism of books that I'm over-precious about in my fanboyness. Your OP is perfectly reasonable and discussion-provoking, imho.

btw, I haven't read the first book in the new "Final" trilogy in the Covenant series. I picked it up at a bookstore and read the first page and thought it sounded like schlock. So, who knows, if I go back and re-read them now (which I probably will, now, after this discussion) I'll ended up disliking them and crying for my lost youth.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Kevin manifestly fails the Skywalker Test for naming fantasy and SF heroes.

And that test is...?

[Scissorjack]

And that test is...?

Stick the name in front of "Skywalker" and see if it works. Think how much more stupid Star Wars would have been if Vader had said, "Kevin...I am your father."

[muzzynyc]

Or if Darth Vader's name was Jeff...

"No, no, no. D'you know who I am?"
"That's Jeff Vader, that is."
"I am not Jeff Vader, I am Darth Vader."
"What, Jeff Vader runs the Deathstar?"
"No, Jeff… No, I run the Deathstar."
"You Jeff Vader?"
"No, I'm Darth Vader!"
"Are you his brother? Can you get his autograph?"
"I can't get it… No, I'm… All right, I'm Jeff Vader! I'm Jeff Vader!"
"Can I have your autograph?"
"No, fuck off, or I'll kill you with a tray!"

/Izzard

[Bobotheoptimist]

I don't think there's any textual support for this (it's been years since I've read them, although this thread makes me want to re-read them now) but I always thought that perhaps the name "Kevin" was possibly because he came from the Real World, like Thomas.That makes perfect sense. Did Hile Troy mention that, maybe? It sounds like something he'd come up with. I don't want to slog through The Illearth War to try to find it, but I bet I do.
I just re-read all 6 books a few months ago, but I'm starting LFB again, just because of this thread (it was that or When Eight Bells Toll by MacLean)

As primitive as it was in places, Lord Fouls Bane is still my favorite.


I might as well throw this out now <ahem> My name is Bobo, and I don't like Tolkien.
There, I said it. Those movies were ok, but the books bored me. So, imho, Donaldson is the better author.

[Lightray]

Kevin Landwaster was, what, the second or third generation in descent from Berek Halfhand? (Berek Halfhand - Lorec Vilesomethingorother - Kevin Landwaster?). His geneology was mentioned several times throughout the first trilogy, so he's definately not from Covenant's world.

Berek Halfhand, though, just seems to pop up from nowhere, and since Covenant is mistaken for the second coming of Berek, is a much better candidate for having come from Covenant's world. It's probably not too unlikely that Berek is a name in some "real-world" culture.

Of course, it's not too implausible that Trell, Atirian, Lena, etc. could be "real-world" names. Though apparently not "real-world" names of a culture that your average reader regards as inappropriate for fantasy.

BTW, Jeff Skywalker having a name derived from "peace of God" is absolutely no more or less silly than Luke Skywalker having a name swiped from an Apostle.

[Bobotheoptimist]

Kevin Landwaster was, what, the second or third generation in descent from Berek Halfhand? (Berek Halfhand - Lorec Vilesomethingorother - Kevin Landwaster?). His geneology was mentioned several times throughout the first trilogy, so he's definately not from Covenant's world.

Berek Halfhand, though, just seems to pop up from nowhere, and since Covenant is mistaken for the second coming of Berek, is a much better candidate for having come from Covenant's world. It's probably not too unlikely that Berek is a name in some "real-world" culture.

Of course, it's not too implausible that Trell, Atirian, Lena, etc. could be "real-world" names. Though apparently not "real-world" names of a culture that your average reader regards as inappropriate for fantasy.

BTW, Jeff Skywalker having a name derived from "peace of God" is absolutely no more or less silly than Luke Skywalker having a name swiped from an Apostle.Knew a girl named Lena once... Russian, maybe German. Berek is a sweater company it appears.

Berek - Damelon Giantfriend- Loric Vilesilencer- Kevin. Each lived for several hundred years, Kevin for a thousand.
I forgot that they were father-son rather than successive High Lords. Bummer, that would have been cool.

[Monkey Chews]

1. Okay, there's hardly any point in asking whether you look Thomas Covenant. He's scum--selfish, self-centered, raping scum.Whoah, whoah, whoah!! Back up a second there, big fella! I like Covenant plenty. Yeah, he may not be the most pleasant character I've ever read about - especially in the first couple of books - but there's more than one way to like someone. I mean, I wouldn't want to hang out with him at a party, but I wish I was half the person he was.

Obviously, I see where you're coming from with this question - the guy commits the most horriffic act of violence, he's belligerent to everyone who tries to help him, and things get a little oogy when he goes for a skinny dip with his daughter. But this is part of a redemptive arc in which he changes profoundly for the better. When we first meet him, he is a victim; superficially unpleasant, but very easy to sympathise with. He has contracted a horrible disease, his wife has left him, his neighbours try to kill him, and everyone he knows shuns him. Every good thing in his life has turned to ash. Who wouldn't become a little unpleasant? From here he is placed in a situation where the most incredible demands are made of him - incredible for anyone, let alone someone who has become so crippled by disease and rejection and loneliness as Covenant has. And this crippling is, to some extent, self-imposed, and absolutely necessary for his continued survival. Yet, somehow, he comes to feel a deep love for the Land and its people, and for them he undertakes extraordinary tasks, in a way that avoids every trap that has been set up for him, eventually making the ultimate sacrifice for them. Really, what's not to love?

The thing about Covenant is that, although for much of Lord Foul's Bane and The Illearth War you want to give him good slapping, he turns out to be completely right. It's really frustrating to watch him avoiding action and responsibility at every opportunity in those two books, but ultimately, every choice he makes turns out to be the right one. He has a much better understanding of power and its consequences than those who try to use it in the Land's defense - notably Hile Troy and Elena, whose attempts to use whatever power they can get their hands on (consequences be damned) end in disaster. Only Mhoram seems to have as good an understanding - what a wonderful moment it is when he allows Covenant to return to his own world to save the one little girl who has just been bitten by the snake, rather than compelling him to return to the Land to save them all.

Me, I would have tried to be just like Hile Troy, and ended up as a tree. (If I was lucky!! Probably just a shrub.) What a great device this character was - he was doing everything we wanted Covenamt to do - and through his eyes we were allowed a voice for our judgements against him - and he came so close to ruining it all. If the Forestall hadn't turned up to save his lilly-white arse at the last second, the Land would have been screwed.

So what would you say the point is in making such a man the protagonist? If you chance to meet Tom on the road, is the moral thing to do to kill him immediately, :eek: Are you kidding me?

As to the point of making such an initially unlikeable man as the protagonist, well, I think its obviously so that we get the redemptive arc that we do. After he commits the rape, and during much of the first book at least, he seems like someone who is completely unredeemable - which makes him the perfect candidate for that kind of story. Doesn't that make the journey something worth reading about? It's easy to read about the redemption of someone who's a bit of a scallywag, but essentially good at heart (an obvious example from film that springs to mind is Han Solo), but to take someone who commits the unforgivable act of rape and watch him change in to someone who can become the saviour of the Land is a wonderful experience.

The other thing about making the character so unlikeable initially is that Donaldson sets up the possibility that Covenenant could easily fail. He could credibly become the servant of the Despiser at many points in the story, were he to make slightly different choices. In fact it seems so unlikely that he could be any kind of hero that you wonder how he (and Donaldson) are ever going to be able to pull it off.

2. How effective is the device of questioning the reality of the land? How does TC's leprosy and VSE play into this? Does it make the story more intriguing or more irritating, or something else?I find this such a bizarre question that I barely know how to answer it. It's like asking of Lord of the Rings, "How effective is the device of having the ring be an evil talisman that must be destroyed. How does its seductive influence play into this?" It's not some tacked-on element - that IS the story. It's what the entire structure (at least of the first trilogy) is based around!

But, I'll give it a go... I do think its an intruiging aspect of the story, and explored in many fascinating ways. Covenant's leprosy, and his Unbelief, is completely central to understanding his character and his journey in the First Chronicles (the importance becomes somewhat less central in the Second Chronicles, but that is directly because of the nature of the answers that Covenant finds to these questions). So much tension is created between what we want Covenant to be able to do to save the Land, and what we are forced to understand he must do to save himself. The initial chapters of Lord Foul's Bane, in the sequence in the Leprosarium, show us in detail what faces Covenant if he give in to his desire to be free of the disease, to give up the rigidity and control he is forced to exert every moment of his life (as exemplified by the VSE). God, what a horrible situation to be faced with... to be offered everything that you've always wanted - life, health, love - but to believe that to accept it, give in to it, will be giving in to a future of rotting flesh and madness. Its a testament to Covenant that he is able to find the answers he does, and watching his work his way towards those answers - his increasingly desperate "bargains" (covenants) with himself - are fascinating to watch, as well as providing the narrative impetus and structure for the story.

3. In what ways would you call Donaldson's work a reaction to Lord of the Rings? Is Stephen worthy of polishing the professor's spats?If you haven't guessed by now, I think the answer to the second question is a big fat Yes. As to the first part, I do think there is an element of Donaldson using many of the conventions of the genre (as typified by LOTR) against both the reader and against Covenant. I mean, there's something kind of funny about the fact that the most miserable man in the world - a man who can never allow himself to believe in a fantasy - is taken into a fantasy world specifically designed to piss him off. Just look at some of those names you mention below, they'd piss anybody off. He's confronted by a creature named "Drool Rockworm", a servant of "Lord Foul", for god's sake! I'd be like, "You have GOT to be kidding me", and this is coming from someone who enjoyed The Belgariad. No wonder he's unpleasant. And from there he is taken to a castle, meets a load of magicians, and then taken on a Quest (spelled with a self-important capital letter). The poor guy is trapped in The Sword of Shannara and can't get out!

4. "Saltheart Foamfollower." :rolleyes: "Drool Rockheart." :o "Kevin." :dubious: What the hell was Donaldson smoking when he came up with these names? :confused: I agree "Drool" is pretty naff, but I love the giants' names. And there are some gorgeous names in the series as well - Kiril Threndor, Berek Halfhand, Doriendor Corishev, and everyobody's favourite Sandgorgon, Nom.

And I'm not getting the hate for "Kevin". It's two fairly straightforward syllables stuck together. I don't see it as much different from Berek, or Sunder. It doesn't seem unreasonable that some names in a fantasy land would coincide with names in our world. Maybe it would be easier to think of it as "KEE-vin", and not that nitwit with the boogers who pulled your hair in the third grade.

5. Talk about Donaldson's strengths, his weaknesses, and anything else I would have brought up if I were smarter. :wally I found the first novel, Lord Foul's Bane, very hard to get into. The opening chapters were fascinating, but once the rape occurred I didn't know what to do. I was expecting to have Covenant in the traditional role of loveable hero, and clearly that wasn't going to happen. The rest of the book didn't really inspire me, and it was only because I had already purchased The Illearth War and was a poor starving uni student and couldn't afford to waste that money that I kept on going. Well, I fell in love with Covenant, his quandry, the Land and Donaldson while reading it, and tore straight through all six books. And recently I was overjoyed to discover the first book of "The Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant", The Runes of the Earth.

Even upon re-reading the first two trilogies (in preparation for the Last Chronicles), I found that Lord Foul's Bane was less enjoyable than the other books. There is a serious lack of action, the language was more awkward, and most of all, Covenant seems more opaque. I found it difficult to understand and empathise with him during this novel - particularly around the issue of Lena's rape and Convenants seeming lack of reaction to it. I do think Donaldson must have learned from his experience and the writing of everything after the first book I found to be wonderful.

Donaldson's stengths, I would say, are his ability to vividly evoke the worlds he creates (I mean, I don't think there's any place I've ever felt so much love for as The Land), his obvious enjoyment of language, his wonderful, careful labarynthine plotting (especially in the Second Chronicles and later works), his respect for his characters, the fact that every character journey is so intense and every redemption so thoroughly earned.

There has one thing that has always puzzled me about this series -- the use of Hindu/Buddhist terms for the names of the ravers -- moksha, turiya, and samadhi. In Hinduism and Buddhism, these are all very positive things -- but Donaldson uses them as alternative names for Satansfist, Fleshharrower, and Kinslaughterer. Is this supposed to signify anything? Donaldson's hatred of Hindu concepts? Or did he just open up a dictionary and take terms that were unfamiliar to him to come up with names of things in his stories?I think its pretty safe to assume that Donaldson understodd the significance of those names when he chose them for the Ravers. Remember that those are the names that the Ravers gave themselves - and apparently, they seem to think they are the bees knees. Obviously, they've got tickets on themselves just a little.

[Monkey Chews]

It's really frustrating to watch him avoiding action and responsibility at every opportunity in those two books, but ultimately, every choice he makes turns out to be the right one.Well, except the rape obviously.

And probably quite a few other dodgy things he does too. What I was referring to are the moral choices he makes, and the concerns that he has about weilding the power that everyone wants him to use, which ultimately prove to be completely justified and incredibly important.

[crazyjoe]

Are y'all aware that there's a third series (book one is finished) in the works?

As for the covenant series, I enjoyed it but felt it was very dry. I usually read writers who insert at least some tiniest bit of humour into their works, any kind at all, but it seems the Land is a place without humor.

[Acsenray]

I think its pretty safe to assume that Donaldson understodd the significance of those names when he chose them for the Ravers.

It didn't seem a safe assumption for me. It's been a long time since I read them, but I remember being puzzled at the time that the text itself seemed to give no hint as to the significance of the use of these terms. It didn't even seem to recognize that these terms have a meaning outside of the context of the books themselves.

Remember that those are the names that the Ravers gave themselves - and apparently, they seem to think they are the bees knees. Obviously, they've got tickets on themselves just a little.

But, so far as I remember, there was no indication of why they might have chosen these particular names. Why would Fleshharrower call himself moksha, which is the state of release from the cycle of rebirth? Yes, you might come up with a hypothesis, but I don't think that Donaldson himself offers one. That's what makes it seem disjointed and arbitrary.

[Lightray]

I found the first novel, Lord Foul's Bane, very hard to get into. The opening chapters were fascinating, but once the rape occurred I didn't know what to do. ...
:eek: My goodness. I think you're the first person I've ever heard in a discussion of the Covenant books who liked the first chapters of Lord Foul's Bane. I usually recommend that new readers skim through them, then come back later to re-read if the book interests them.

I found them interesting on re-reading the chapters -- but only once I had the context of Covenant to regard them in.

But, so far as I remember, there was no indication of why they might have chosen these particular names. Why would Fleshharrower call himself moksha, which is the state of release from the cycle of rebirth? Yes, you might come up with a hypothesis, but I don't think that Donaldson himself offers one. That's what makes it seem disjointed and arbitrary.
Didn't the Ravers have quite a few other names they referred to themselves by? I seem to recall that's where I first read up on Sheol (wondering why a Raver was named that)...

[muzzynyc]

:eek: My goodness. I think you're the first person I've ever heard in a discussion of the Covenant books who liked the first chapters of Lord Foul's Bane. I usually recommend that new readers skim through them, then come back later to re-read if the book interests them.

I found them interesting on re-reading the chapters -- but only once I had the context of Covenant to regard them in.
I picked up the first three book after work last night (I am an impulse reader) and re-reading them, found the first couple of chapters great in setting up the danger of TC's condition and his mental state, not to mention his relationship with horses and his wedding ring. I imagine a lot of that goes over the head of the first-time reader (especially if they're 15, like I was when I first read the books) but it's all important and does the job of setting up the character.

[Anaamika]

I picked up the first three book after work last night (I am an impulse reader) and re-reading them, found the first couple of chapters great in setting up the danger of TC's condition and his mental state, not to mention his relationship with horses and his wedding ring. I imagine a lot of that goes over the head of the first-time reader (especially if they're 15, like I was when I first read the books) but it's all important and does the job of setting up the character.
Yes - I liked this part, too. Actually, so far his experiences in the other world are kind of a downturn.

Still working on it, though.

[Dunderman]

Of course, it's not too implausible that Trell, Atirian, Lena, etc. could be "real-world" names.I don't know about Trell and Atirian, but I have a relative called Lena. It's a common name in Sweden.

[Bobotheoptimist]

Has anyone plotted out the scale of the Land, maybe based on the time it takes to travel to various places? In the second series it sounds like The Land is this tiny little place hanging out in the middle of nowhere. The map isn't much help, no scale...

I imagine it to be like a Europe... Well, Northern Europe (and facing the other direction), because you remember there are the Southron Wastes to the south.
Maybe I'll keep notes this time through the series and see if I can come up with something (unless someone else can save me the trouble)

[jayjay]

I used to own Karen Wynn Fonstad's The Atlas of the Land, which, as all of Fonstad's amazing work does, had detailed maps of just about everything, including the wider world that was introduced in the Second Chronicles. The book's long gone, now, unfortunately (and, on Googling to see if I had the author right, I found out that so is Fonstad. She died last year of complications from breast cancer. :()

[Bobotheoptimist]

I picked up the first three book after work last night (I am an impulse reader) and re-reading them, found the first couple of chapters great in setting up the danger of TC's condition and his mental state, not to mention his relationship with horses and his wedding ring. I imagine a lot of that goes over the head of the first-time reader (especially if they're 15, like I was when I first read the books) but it's all important and does the job of setting up the character.
I just finished the intro (he's popping into Kiril Threndor right now) and I have to agree that Tom's time in the leprosarium is vital - I noticed a lot of foreshadowing in the flashback that I probably skipped over the first couple of times I read it. Like muzzynyc I was mid-teens the first time through (I might still have a first-edition White Gold Wielder somewhere) and tended to ignore the first chapters.

I've heard criticism of the series because Thomas seems to effortlessly trot the length and breadth of the Land without much effort, but LFB points out that he spends most of his time hiking Haven Farm - he has no job, he's not writing yet, he's coming to terms with his life by keeping himself on the verge of exhaustion by walking all the time.
<cue Dory singing> "Just keep swimming just keep swimming just keep swimming"
The guy has to be in fairly good shape, gaunt tho he may be.


jayjay, thank you! I've got a line on a used copy from Amazon.

[Bobotheoptimist]

And because layoffs are coming at any time, I've been thinking way too much about anything but work, leading to over-posting in several threads.

But, to the point -
Why, I ask myself and all of you as well, WHY would the cover of the current Amazon available mass-market paperbacks (here (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/0345348656/ref=dp_images_all/104-9478266-0591161?ie=UTF8&s=books) here (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/0345348664/ref=dp_images_all/104-9478266-0591161?ie=UTF8&s=books) and here (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/0345348672/ref=dp_images_all/104-9478266-0591161?ie=UTF8&s=books)) have a GOLD ring on the cover? WTF?! That's like putting a ruby necklace on the covers of LotR.

[Nurobath]

I just have to say that those are some horrible covers. They look like cheesy romance novels.

I guess I'm going to have to give the series another try. I've gotten about 50 pages in twice and stopped both times. This thread is making me want to try it again though. We'll see how it goes this time.

[Lightray]

Hee, I never noticed that gold ring, even though I'd recently gone to look for Runes of the Earth in the bookstore.

Anyway, I'm just glad I've still got mine with the Darrell Sweet covers. He did a surprising number of my favorite fantasy novel covers.

[Thudlow Boink]

Why, I ask myself and all of you as well, WHY would the cover of the current Amazon available mass-market paperbacks (here (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/0345348656/ref=dp_images_all/104-9478266-0591161?ie=UTF8&s=books) here (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/0345348664/ref=dp_images_all/104-9478266-0591161?ie=UTF8&s=books) and here (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/0345348672/ref=dp_images_all/104-9478266-0591161?ie=UTF8&s=books)) have a GOLD ring on the cover? WTF?! That's like putting a ruby necklace on the covers of LotR.(after clicking the links)

W. T. F???

Those are all kinds of wrong.

[Malacandra]

I don't know about Trell and Atirian, but I have a relative called Lena. It's a common name in Sweden.

Atiaran

I've seen the name "Trell" on the side of a van. Something to do with the construction industry, which is quite fitting.

Helpful hint to the people of the Land: Alloy about 10% of palladium with your gold, and you're good to go.

[Anaamika]

I just have to say that those are some horrible covers. They look like cheesy romance novels.

I guess I'm going to have to give the series another try. I've gotten about 50 pages in twice and stopped both times. This thread is making me want to try it again though. We'll see how it goes this time.
It's hard. At this point I'm only continuing because of this thread. Posters whose opinions I respect seem to love it or at least like it. Right now it's not grabbing me.

But I don't have much time to dedicate to it, either. And all the history and stuff is boring me.

[The Punkyova]

I can't believe that this thread has made two pages and no one has mentioned Fantasy Bedtime Hour (http://www.fantasybedtimehour.com). The fact that Donaldson is a big fan made me respect him, because not all authors have a sense of humor about their work.

[Sean Factotum]

Thomas comes from the "real" world, though, or rather the analogue to our world in his universe. Of COURSE he should have an ordinary name. But naming the great legendary figure of the Land "Kevin" is like naming the viewpoint character "Iofur Byrnison."
I agree with muzzynyc. I always thought that it would be shown at some later point that Kevin was another person from Covenant's world who had to save the land. But I've finished the first book of the third trilogy, and haven't seen anything yet to either support or deny my little theory.

[Skald the Rhymer]

And because layoffs are coming at any time, I've been thinking way too much about anything but work, leading to over-posting in several threads.

But, to the point -
Why, I ask myself and all of you as well, WHY would the cover of the current Amazon available mass-market paperbacks (here (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/0345348656/ref=dp_images_all/104-9478266-0591161?ie=UTF8&s=books) here (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/0345348664/ref=dp_images_all/104-9478266-0591161?ie=UTF8&s=books) and here (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/0345348672/ref=dp_images_all/104-9478266-0591161?ie=UTF8&s=books)) have a GOLD ring on the cover? WTF?! That's like putting a ruby necklace on the covers of LotR.

Because the marketing department is filled with stupid, stupid people who got the Chronicles & LOTR confused.

[muzzynyc]

Because the marketing department is filled with stupid, stupid people who got the Chronicles & LOTR confused.

Or else the marketing department is filled with people who want to evoke LOTR so that more people will pick up the books.

[Lightray]

I agree with muzzynyc. I always thought that it would be shown at some later point that Kevin was another person from Covenant's world who had to save the land. But I've finished the first book of the third trilogy, and haven't seen anything yet to either support or deny my little theory.
You missed the aforementioned fact that Kevin was the fourth generation of High Lords born in the Land -- attested to by Bloodguard who were actually there to witness that fact?

There is no support for the theory that Kevin is from Covenant's world. In fact, looking at the three (in the first two trilogies) main characters from Covenant's world, you can't really use their names to support that they're from Covenant's world:

Thomas
Hile
Linden

"Thomas" is suitably mundane, I suppose. And "Linden" perhaps reads more mundane in the current year than it might have when originally published. But "Hile"?

"Hile" is just as goofy pseud-fantasy as "Trell" or "Sunder".

[Bobotheoptimist]

It's hard. At this point I'm only continuing because of this thread. Posters whose opinions I respect seem to love it or at least like it. Right now it's not grabbing me.
But I don't have much time to dedicate to it, either. And all the history and stuff is boring me.I feel compelled to point out that I, and several other posters (I think), read this book in our early teens. I now accept the weaknesses in LFB and enjoy it as groundwork for the later books, and am probably unable to view it with an unbiased eye.
Things pick up a little towards the end, but it reminds me of a D&D game sometimes... It is not widely regarded as his best work, but it managed to grab me and keep my attention back then, perhaps as a antidote to the syrupy sweetness of Anne McCaffrey.
I can only take so many stories where everything turns out super-duper at the end and everyone hugs and adopts a kitten. Oh, ummm link to pics is required, right?OMG! Kitties! (http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Kitten_huffing)

I hope you do stick it out, tho. I personally didn't like The Illearth War as much (I think I'm in a minority here), but it's better written I'd say. By The Power That Preserves, Donaldson is almost all grown up in his style.

[Dob]

haha... Thanks The Punkyova I never heard of them before. Good stuff!!

btw.. c'ville? centerville?

[muzzynyc]

So, I'm about 2/3 of the way through LBF and loving it. Yeah, it's clunky, and yeah it's probably partly because I'm remembering reading them the first time, laying out in the back yard without a care in the world. But there's something about Covenant that fascinates me. He's a miserable bastard. Maybe he reminds me of me.

Oh, and as for forgetting the whole lineage of Kevin and that there's no way he could be a "Real World-er." Well, it was a long time ago and I forgot most everything about the books. But it'd be cool, right? If he was from the real world? Right?

[The Punkyova]

Dob,

Charlottesville. For another two weeks. Then I'm going home!

[Lightray]

Oh, and as for forgetting the whole lineage of Kevin and that there's no way he could be a "Real World-er."
Gah. There's a nasty thought. Covenant's an annoying prat, but not nearly as bad as someone from any MTV "reality" show.

[muzzynyc]

Gah. There's a nasty thought. Covenant's an annoying prat, but not nearly as bad as someone from any MTV "reality" show.

Ha. There's a skit idea: a "Real World" house with the likes of Frodo & Samwise, Thomas Covenant, Harry Potter, etc. They'd all hate Covenant ("What a miserable ass. The house is real! Florida is real! Jesus!") and talk about Sam behind his back ("God, it's so obvious he's in love with Frodo. Did you see the way he looked at him when we were in the jacuzzi?")

[Bobotheoptimist]

But there's something about Covenant that fascinates me. He's a miserable bastard. Maybe he reminds me of me.That's beautiful!
Oh, and as for forgetting the whole lineage of Kevin and that there's no way he could be a "Real World-er." Well, it was a long time ago and I forgot most everything about the books. But it'd be cool, right? If he was from the real world? I just read the series a few months ago, and it sounded reasonable to me.

I'd like to see Tom at Hogworts - Harry & Co. need a brush with leperosy and the Wild Magic That Destroys Peace; Voldie erased with a negligent thought, those stupid wands exploding on contact... hehehee. A little lomillialor in that place might shake things up, too.

Mhoram, Ingold Inglorion, and Gandalf walk into a bar...

[Bobotheoptimist]

Helpful hint to the people of the Land: Alloy about 10% of palladium with your gold, and you're good to go.From LFB - "There is no white gold in the Land. Gold has never been found in the Earth, though it is said that Berek knew of it, and made the songs." (boldingmine)

Anyone remember any other gold mentioned in the first chronicles? I find it odd that they have a word for a material that's only been seen once in the past several thousand years. If no gold has been found, why would they need the "white" modifier? Perhaps they trade with Bhrathairain?

[Lightray]

Anyone remember any other gold mentioned in the first chronicles? I find it odd that they have a word for a material that's only been seen once in the past several thousand years. If no gold has been found, why would they need the "white" modifier? Perhaps they trade with Bhrathairain?
There are other things that are gold in color that are not gold themselves -- iron pyrite, for example. So the Land could have the concept of color (hue?) of gold, even without having any gold itself.

I always glossed "white gold" as the way that the Land's legends make the point that the keystone of time is made out of something impossible: gold-that-is-not-gold. Sort of like how Fenrir was fettered by "fish's breath, bird's spittle, woman's beard, bear's sinews", etc.

[Bobotheoptimist]

Just got The Atlas of the Land by Karen Wynn Fonstad. Haven't had a chance to check it out yet, but any questions?

[MrDibble]

I have to admit, the names in LOTR were beautiful. Galadriel[snip]....those are beautiful names.
You're aware that Galadriel more-or-less translates as "Blondie", don't you. Very myffic, I don't think ;)