Is it really impossible to lead a cow downstairs?

[diggleblop]

I hear you can lead a cow upstairs, but not down. Did mythbusters ever conquer this one?

[chappachula]

may I add a related question?
Is it true that cattle won't cross a grid of striped lines painted on the road?

Years ago I worked in the rural west, and many roads had "cattle guards " to keep cows from crossing. These were a "bridge" of parallel metal bars set into the asphalt, with spaces in between. They prevent a cow from walking across because it's feet would slip into the gaps between the bars.

But in some places, instead of building a bridge of metal bars, they just painted white stripes on the asphalt. Somebody told me that the white stripes confuse a cow so it is afraid to walk across them. Seems like a myth to me....

[samclem]

Here's (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=375874&page=2&pp=50&highlight=stairs+cows) a previous thread about cow tipping and cows going up/down stairs. Start with post #60 for the stairs discussions. Sounds like a UL.

[diggleblop]

Right on, thanks, Sam.

[Zsofia]

I always heard it with a donkey, that you can lead a donkey up a tower but you can't get it back down again.

[KlondikeGeoff]

I hear you can lead a cow upstairs, but not down. Did mythbusters ever conquer this one?

OK, I guess it's time to 'fess up after almost 60 years. Four of us idiots back in college in VT went out one night to the University farm, got a heifer and led her to the dorm. With the old "carrot and stick" (the latter being a couple of brooms), we managed to get the poor thing up a flight of stairs and left her there.

All hell ensued and by morning a crew had been unsuccesful in getting her to go down the stairs. They had to rig a block and tackle with a sling and lower her down the stairwell opening on the side.

Whether this pertains to all cows or just that one (a Holstein) is unknown, but one cow I know would not do it.

[Fastidiots]

That's all bollocks, speaking from experience of course. Visited the grandfather of a friend of mine, he milked two dairy cattle to keep him busy, and would walk them up and down cement steps to a stall everyday. I'd imagine a poor old heifer caught in the noisy foreign envirnoment of a dorm room would be spooked enough not to want to be led anywhere. If you've got a halter on less than house trained cow youll be lucky to pull it towards green grass let alone down stairs where it can't see where its going. Cattle need to be herded ("Oh, well I'll just follow Buttercup, she seems clued in"), or spooked. And the white lines thing seems ridiculous. Although, interestingly enough, on an Australian Uncle's sheep station (350000 acres), there was one gate betwix two large paddocks that sheep would not cross, but cattle would. I was told you could herd hundreds of sheep right up to it but they wouldn't cross. So they left it open for trucks and bikes and such to pass through.

[glee]

My cite (courtesy of Terry Pratchett) is that Lord Vetenari successfully brought a goat down from a minaret.

[Blake]

I hear you can lead a cow upstairs, but not down.

Cows will walk down steps quite happily.

I can only guess that this myth came from a variation on the horse in the tower story. That story stems form the idea that there is insufficient room in the tower to turn a horse around, and horses don't like walking backwards down stairs. Of course they don't like walking backwards at all.

But it has nothing to do with walking up or down stairs forwards, which both cattle and horses will do quite readily.


may I add a related question?
Is it true that cattle won't cross a grid of striped lines painted on the road?

….in some places, instead of building a bridge of metal bars, they just painted white stripes on the asphalt. Somebody told me that the white stripes confuse a cow so it is afraid to walk across them. Seems like a myth to me....

No, it’s not a myth.

“Cattle guards” work because they have a high probability of breaking the animal’s leg if they try to cross. Cattle and horses are big animals and if their legs slip between the bars they will very likely snap the leg. That is not just painful but for a wild animal is guaranteed fatal. Cattle and horses also have limited depth perception at close range due to the shape of their heads. As a result they have evolved to avoid any such barriers.

The painted barriers work precisely because the animals have less than perfect eyesight. To them the painted barrier looks enough like the real thing that they won’t try to cross. It just isn’t worth the risk of a broken leg.

[Blake]

Photographic proof (http://thepost.baker.ohiou.edu/archives/archives3/jan01/011801/today.html) that is is easy to lead a cow down stairs.

[t-bonham@scc.net]

It's ridiculous!
Do you see herds of cows trapped on the tops of hills, because 'cows can go uphill, but can't go downhill'? That would make just as much (or as little) sense!

Cows can certainly walk both up and down steps when needed. Many cow barns (like many houses) have a step or two leading up to the door, and cows go up and down those ever day.

But no one would build a barn with a whole flight of stairs for cows to traverse. A cow will not normally go up a flight of stairs; they'd have to be forced (for example, by a gang of drunken frat boys). A cow would be even more reluctant to go down a flight of stairs, they would look steep and dangerous to the cow. They'd have to be forced down them, just like they were forced up them. It's possible that a lone janitor or two would have a harder time forcing them than a whole gang of drunken frat boys. And the janitors probably would have more concern about the chances of injuring the cow than the drunken frat boys, so they might try something other than forcing the cow down the flight of stairs.


About 'cattle guards':
Cows have cloven hooves, meaning they are not a single solid unit, like horses or human feet are. With cattle guards, the cows' legs do NOT actually slip between the bars; that would be very dangerous and likely to break their leg (which would be a serious financial loss to the farmer).

What normally happens is that the cows' hoof slips off the bar, one part of the hoof goes on either side of the bar, and the cows' weight comes down on the conective tissue between the parts of the hoof. Which hurts! Might bruise or even tear the connective tissue, which would give the cow a sore foot for a few days. Cows soon learn that it hurts to try to walk across the cattle guards, so they avoid them. Plus they are herd animals; once the older ones learn to avoid the cattle guards, the younger ones follow them. (Note that with young calves, their legs ARE small enough to slip between the cattle guard rails, and risk breaking their leg. So careful farmers will keep calves in another pen, or put a gate over their cattle guards when the calves are young.)

Once cattle have learned that it hurts to walk on a cattle guard, than they will avoid anything that looks like one (and cows don't have the greatest vision). So a slab of concrete with painted stripes on it will be avoided by cattle. (But this isn't all that common. Because in the long term, an actual metal cattle guard is less expensive than pouring a slab of concrete, and re-painting stripes on it every year or so.)

[David Simmons]

may I add a related question?
Is it true that cattle won't cross a grid of striped lines painted on the road?As far as I know, the "cattle guards" that are painted on roads are effective. Horses are also skittish about crossing them. Pigs, on the other hand, will cross a real cattle guard.

My uncle got tired of opening a closing gates so he installed a cattle guard between the pasture and the fields. As he and the crew were admiring their work an old sow came up, looked at the cattle guard and saunted unconcernedly across into a field of oats.

[Blake]

Cows have cloven hooves, meaning they are not a single solid unit, like horses or human feet are. With cattle guards, the cows' legs do NOT actually slip between the bars; that would be very dangerous and likely to break their leg (which would be a serious financial loss to the farmer).

Nonetheless cattle do break their legs on cattle guards. I've assisted with several animals injured in this way, and was responsible for one such injury.

The point that I think you are missing is that cattle grids are no more dangerous than barbed wire, which is also dangerous and also potentially represents a serious financial loss. In both cases the animal's own instinct for avoiding danger overcomes the problem in most cases.

What normally happens is that the cows' hoof slips off the bar, one part of the hoof goes on either side of the bar, and the cows' weight comes down on the conective tissue between the parts of the hoof.

Can we have a reference for this claim please? I just can;t reconcile it with what I know about cows hooves. While cattle so have cloven hooves the actual division is far, far to shallow to enable the foot to straddle a 4 inch steel bar in the way you describe.

Added to that I have to ask how a beast walking across a steel bar manages to get a longitudinal divide to go on either side of the bar.



Cows soon learn that it hurts to try to walk across the cattle guards, so they avoid them.

Can we please have a reference for this claim too. You are saying that cattle won't avoid cattle grids until after at least some of the herd is injured by the, which is contrary to what every cattleman knows to be true. Even feral cattle that have never seen a road, much less a fence, will avoid grids.


(Note that with young calves, their legs ARE small enough to slip between the cattle guard rails, and risk breaking their leg. So careful farmers will keep calves in another pen, or put a gate over their cattle guards when the calves are young.)


Simply not true.

1) Cattle grids are routinely used to control sheep and horses as well as cattle. If size were a factor as you claim then sheep, which are smaller than calves, would be at risk. They are not.

2) You can see the scale of a cattle grid here (http://www.peter.com.au/photos/photos/2000-11-21-Cattle-Grid_04-Cattle-Grid.jpg). The rails are spaced 5-6 inches apart. Even a huge Limousin bull will not have hooves 5 inches across. IOW all cattle have legs that are small enough to slip between the rails. regardless of age.

3) I have seen literally hundreds of cattle ranches over 4 continents in my career and I have never known a farmer to avoid placing cows and calves or weaners into paddocks with grids or to cover the grids. I have however seen hundreds of paddocks with cows and calves or weaners with grids at all accesses.

Can we please have a reference for this claim that calves are at greater risk from grids? While I have seen several mature cattle injured by grids I have never seen or even heard of a calf being so injured.

[CalMeacham]

There's a story that they once lead a cow up to the top of the Great Dome at MIT and left it there, and it wouldn't come down. Of course, I've had the same experience with some people atop the Great Dome at MIT. It looks, from the top, as if you'd have a spectacular fall. I can easily beleive that the story is true, like Klondike Geoff's, but that iot doesn't prove anything one way or the other about cows having "down genes", as Pepper Mill (quoting someone else) once put it.

But I've made the same argument as t-bonham -- if cows couldn't go downhill, you'd expect to cows traped on hilltops. You don't, and it would be a rotten survival trait.

One thing I can add to the discussion is that cows really don't like to walk backwards (to supplement Blake's statement about horses. I went so far as to ask the folkls at Sturbridge Village, who have plenty of experience driving cows. They say it's virtually impossible, unless you confine the cows between fences too close together to let the cows tur around. It came up because, according to one source, the infant Hermes stole the cattle of Apollo by making them walk backwards, and reversing his own sandals, so it seemed as if they were going the opposite direction from the way they were realy going. I doubted the truth of the story, and wanted to check it (I think there's another reason they tell the story, but that, as they say, is another story.)

[Earl Snake-Hips Tucker]

. . . but that iot doesn't prove anything one way or the other about cows having "down genes", as Pepper Mill (quoting someone else) once put it.

Don't know where she heard that, but that line was used in an episode of "Hill Street Blues" ("Domestic Beef) in which a cow (or cows) was upstairs somewhere, and some Black vagrant type said that, "Ain't got no down genes."

[CalMeacham]

Don't know where she heard that, but that line was used in an episode of "Hill Street Blues" ("Domestic Beef) in which a cow (or cows) was upstairs somewhere, and some Black vagrant type said that, "Ain't got no down genes."


Bingo! I think that's where she got it.

[Malacandra]

My cite (courtesy of Terry Pratchett) is that Lord Vetenari successfully brought a goat down from a minaret.

A donkey (in Jingo). The Patrician helpfully explained that the key is to find that part of the donkey that really wants to get down.

[ltfire]

A reason that old firehouses had spiral staircases, was to prevent the horses that pulled the fire wagons, from climbing the stairs that led to the firehouse sleeping quarters.

[Blake]

A reason that old firehouses had spiral staircases, was to prevent the horses that pulled the fire wagons, from climbing the stairs that led to the firehouse sleeping quarters.

You might want to add a smiley to the end of that before someone adds it to a factoid list and it becomes yet another UL.

This is the internet after all, where people will apparently believe anything.

[samclem]

A reason that old firehouses had spiral staircases, was to prevent the horses that pulled the fire wagons, from climbing the stairs that led to the firehouse sleeping quarters. Urban legend. Find me a cite that proves your post.

[David Simmons]

It is easier for horses and cattle to go up hill, or stairs, than down but they can both go both ways. As a matter of fact I'll bet most bad falls on stairs by people happen when they are going down and not up, but we can go both ways.

[ltfire]

From this site..http://www.fire.ci.burlington.vt.us/stations.html
Go to Fire Station 3



The living quarters for the firefighters were upstairs. There was a large common bunk room in the center of the building, with a kitchen and day room in the front, and a hay loft in the rear. A beautiful spiral wooden staircase leads to the second floor, and survives to this day. Firehouses of this period commonly had spiral staircases, because the bond between the firefighters and their horses was such that the horses would try to wander upstairs with the men. The hay loft remains much as it did in 1895. There is still the large door on the southern wall where bales of hay were once brought in. There is still a trap door in the floor, through which the firefighters of yesteryear would toss the hay bales.?
From this site..http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1442026

In interesting factoid is that older fire stations in the United States always have spiral staircases. The reason for this is that when fire stations were first built many fire trucks were still horse-driven. Since horses were stabled on the ground floor all perishable material had to be kept on the first floor, originally standard stairs were used but horses managed to climb them. For this reason spiral staircases were implemented; it is very difficult to get a horse to climb a spiral staircase, and when they are on their own, generally they can't be bothered to try. It's possible that one of the reasons for the pole is that horses would occasionally try to climb up and get stuck.


I lost this site, but here's the passage..

Speaking of stairs, firehouses began using circular stairways back in the day when fire engines were pulled by horses. With straight stairways the horses would travel upwards rather than staying in their downstairs quarters, making it necessary to run the horses back down stairs before leaving to tend to the fire. With spiral staircases the horses would stay put.

[ltfire]

From this site..http://www.fire.ci.burlington.vt.us/stations.html
Go to Fire Station 3



The living quarters for the firefighters were upstairs. There was a large common bunk room in the center of the building, with a kitchen and day room in the front, and a hay loft in the rear. A beautiful spiral wooden staircase leads to the second floor, and survives to this day. Firehouses of this period commonly had spiral staircases, because the bond between the firefighters and their horses was such that the horses would try to wander upstairs with the men. The hay loft remains much as it did in 1895. There is still the large door on the southern wall where bales of hay were once brought in. There is still a trap door in the floor, through which the firefighters of yesteryear would toss the hay bales.?
From this site..http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1442026

In interesting factoid is that older fire stations in the United States always have spiral staircases. The reason for this is that when fire stations were first built many fire trucks were still horse-driven. Since horses were stabled on the ground floor all perishable material had to be kept on the first floor, originally standard stairs were used but horses managed to climb them. For this reason spiral staircases were implemented; it is very difficult to get a horse to climb a spiral staircase, and when they are on their own, generally they can't be bothered to try. It's possible that one of the reasons for the pole is that horses would occasionally try to climb up and get stuck.


I lost this site, but here's the passage..

Speaking of stairs, firehouses began using circular stairways back in the day when fire engines were pulled by horses. With straight stairways the horses would travel upwards rather than staying in their downstairs quarters, making it necessary to run the horses back down stairs before leaving to tend to the fire. With spiral staircases the horses would stay put.

Here's the 3rd one..http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/9236/did_you_know_trivial_facts_of_interest.html

[Blake]

You are joking, right ltfire? You aren't really trying to use pages that repeat a factoid to verify that factoid?

I'm sure you must be joking because nobody on the Straight Dope you would dare post multiple pages that repeat glurge factoids that have been thoroughly debunked by both Snopes (http://www.snopes.com/military/statue.htm) and The Straight Dope (http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mpeterpanwendy.html)... unless they were joking, right?.

As I said, you really should put a smiley at the end of these joke posts. It's hard to tell that you are joking.


The idea that fire stations had spiral staircases to prevent horse movement simply makes no sense. The fact that it is found only on pages that are wont to repeat "Wendy originated in Peter Pan" and similar factoids simply confirms its UL status.

Horses are big, dangerous animals. If they must be kept inside they are always stalled so they can't kick people, won't fight with one another, don;t re-carpet the floor and can be readily caught when they are required. The idea that the ground floors of fire stations, which were also public access points, had numerous horses wandering around freely, fighting, kicking passers by and shitting all over the floor makes no sense in any way whatsoever. What possible explanation could there be for such an arrangement at fire stations when cavalry stables, coach houses and other equine establishments invariably stalled their horses?

[Blake]

I just did a quick Google search, and every single historical fire station I can find information to had horse stalls. (http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=horse+stalls+%22fire+station%22&btnG=Search&meta=) Fairly typical is In 1907 (http://www.powerhousemuseum.com/collection/database/?irn=207677&search=steam&images=&c=1) the station was connected by telephone and after the alarm was raised bells were set off all over the station, including the stables. This alerted the horses and the doors to their stalls automatically opened to let them out.

There are literally thousands of similar references for historical fire houses, all illustrating that horses were, sensibly, stalled.

Even in those fire stations with spiral staircases the horses were stalled.

The station (http://cms.firehouse.com/content/article/printer.jsp?id=34910)originally housed horses in stalls, five firemen and occasional neighborhood visitors, and it had a hay loft and a pot-bellied stove....four-brick-thick walls and a narrow, red, iron spiral staircase that was originally in the second Fayette County courthouse, which was destroyed by fire.


I can't find a single historical reference to a fire station having free-wandering livestock on the ground floor.

So if all fire stations kept their horses in stalls why excatly would they need to use spiral staircases to conatin horses? Why not just shut the stall door?

[CalMeacham]

Over the weekend I came across another myth where someone drove cattle backwards to try and hide the direction of theft -- the myth of Hercules and Cacus":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cacus

Although the myth as given here says that he "dragged them backwards by the tails", that makes no sense -- it would leave lenty of marks. Surely the original suggested driving them backwards so as to disguise the direction of motion.

[ltfire]

I just did a quick Google search, and every single historical fire station I can find information to had horse stalls. (http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=horse+stalls+%22fire+station%22&btnG=Search&meta=) Fairly typical is

There are literally thousands of similar references for historical fire houses, all illustrating that horses were, sensibly, stalled.

Even in those fire stations with spiral staircases the horses were stalled.




I can't find a single historical reference to a fire station having free-wandering livestock on the ground floor.

So if all fire stations kept their horses in stalls why excatly would they need to use spiral staircases to conatin horses? Why not just shut the stall door?

Oh well, then lets pick a nit.
You quote..' This alerted the horses and the doors to their stalls automatically opened to let them out'.
Could they not have run up the stairs at this time of high stress?
I never said that' fire stations had free wandering live stock on the ground floor'.


SAMCLEM asked for cites, and I supplied three, with four more I didn't bother with.
I absorbed fire house lore for thirty five years, and I will admit that I had NEVER seen anything on a printed page about my comment, until I ran it by Google. I think that all my cites / sites were from legitimate sources.

You offered me SNOPES, and gave me a story about horses hoofs in the air or some such. SNOPES, as far as I'm concerned, IS a joke site. They have been called on numerous claims, and their content is strictly for laughs.

Here's a smily for ya, but I'll continue to believe that my post is true.

Until I can get a hold of a 125 year old firefighter who used to polish the brass on the spiral staircase in his fire house. He'll give you the full cite..and a whole lot more you whippersnapper.
:D

[samclem]

SAMCLEM asked for cites, and I supplied three, with four more I didn't bother with.
I absorbed fire house lore for thirty five years, and I will admit that I had NEVER seen anything on a printed page about my comment, until I ran it by Google. I think that all my cites / sites were from legitimate sources.

You offered me SNOPES, and gave me a story about horses hoofs in the air or some such. SNOPES, as far as I'm concerned, IS a joke site. They have been called on numerous claims, and their content is strictly for laughs.


I'm with Blake here, but I'm the "good cop" in the team. :)

You gave cites which were opinion pieces. That's all. No references, no sources. This just won't do.

You absorbed firehouse "lore?" I'll say.

snopes (snopes.com) (note the small "s") is NOT a joke site. I guess you haven't really spent time there to form more than a cursory opinion, which by the way, is wrong. They are pretty careful about what they post. They offer references. What claims have they been called on that were incorrect? (Again, not that they haven't made a mistake or two, who hasn't) but give me a specific or two.

I'll try to find some more reliable cites than your Google hits to give some more factual information. I may find it tonight, maybe tomorrow, but I will supply it.

[samclem]

As I have access to an electronic database of historic newspapers, I read perhaps ten stories last night. They were from 1885-1910. From Montana to NY City. In each and every case, the horses were kept in locked stalls. Period. And in almost every case, when the fire gong sounded, the stalls were automatically unlocked allowing the horses to come out by themselves. They were so well trained that they went to their preassigned piece of equipment and waited for the firemen to come down from the floor above and hook up their collars to the engine and then they could leave for the fire. This scenario took place in the space of perhaps a minute or so, no more.

The best story that I read was about the NYC fire department. They had a centralized building where all the newly purchased horses were brought in and trained to be fire horses. Cost of a horse--$250. They rejected lots of horses which were untrainable and this usually only took 3-5 days to discover. A good fire horse learned to come out of his stall when the fire gong rang and proceed to go to his engine and stand waiting for be hitched up. Those that couldn't learn this in a matter of 2 or so weeks were sent packing. And even after they weeded them to that point, the local fire house could come pick up a new horse and try it out for 30 days. If it didn't do right, they brought it back. Then the main trainers would try to train the horse some more. If it still wasn't perfect, then they were sold. Fascinating story.

I found it by searching for fire, horse, gong and it was in the Sunday, March 6, 1904 New York Times

[David Simmons]

The best story that I read was about the NYC fire department. They had a centralized building where all the newly purchased horses were brought in and trained to be fire horses. Cost of a horse--$250. They rejected lots of horses which were untrainable and this usually only took 3-5 days to discover. A good fire horse learned to come out of his stall when the fire gong rang and proceed to go to his engine and stand waiting for be hitched up. [bold added] Those that couldn't learn this in a matter of 2 or so weeks were sent packing. And even after they weeded them to that point, the local fire house could come pick up a new horse and try it out for 30 days. If it didn't do right, they brought it back. Then the main trainers would try to train the horse some more. If it still wasn't perfect, then they were sold. Fascinating story.

I found it by searching for fire, horse, gong and it was in the Sunday, March 6, 1904 New York TimesWhich leads to the further question. Did the stories say whenther or not the horses always had their harness on or were they harnessed at the time?

[t-bonham@scc.net]

Which leads to the further question. Did the stories say whenther or not the horses always had their harness on or were they harnessed at the time?Almost certainly not. Leaving a harness on a horse all the time would lead to sores and make the horse unavailable for use for a while. Especially if the harnesses were left on after coming back from a fire, when they would be sooty & sweaty. No doubt the horses were washed down and put back into their stalls, and the harnesses were cleaned and hung back up.

Besides, an experienced teamster could put a harness onto a well-trained horse in under a minute.


Horses will certainly learn where 'their' place is, and go there on cue. My mother sold a driving pair to people in New York, who had some trouble with them at first. When they sent some pictures of the pair, Mom called them and told them they had the horses in the wrong place -- they had switched the sides they were hitched on, and it was confusing these young horses.

[samclem]

Which leads to the further question. Did the stories say whenther or not the horses always had their harness on or were they harnessed at the time?

As t-bonham nicely added, they were in the stall nekkid!

Firefighters could wake out of dead sleep, and almost literally jump into their pants which were quite often left tucked into/over their boots at the foot of the bed in twelve seconds. Then downstairst to their horses which were waiting to be hitched. And were out the door to a fire in about a minute. Quite impressive.

[David Simmons]

Almost certainly not. Leaving a harness on a horse all the time would lead to sores and make the horse unavailable for use for a while. Especially if the harnesses were left on after coming back from a fire, when they would be sooty & sweaty. No doubt the horses were washed down and put back into their stalls, and the harnesses were cleaned and hung back up.

Besides, an experienced teamster could put a harness onto a well-trained horse in under a minute.


Horses will certainly learn where 'their' place is, and go there on cue. My mother sold a driving pair to people in New York, who had some trouble with them at first. When they sent some pictures of the pair, Mom called them and told them they had the horses in the wrong place -- they had switched the sides they were hitched on, and it was confusing these young horses.Well I actually knew the answer before I asked the question. I suspect they used the simplest possible harness in the interest of saving time.

It's interesting to watch horses come into the stable. If a team is stalled together, as the usually are, they will walk in and take their proper place, each one on the same side as they are hitched. As you say, try hitching a team with sides exchanged if you want to see a lot of balking and refusal to work.

Horses tend to be finicky about everything.

As t-bonham nicely added, they were in the stall nekkid!

Firefighters could wake out of dead sleep, and almost literally jump into their pants which were quite often left tucked into/over their boots at the foot of the bed in twelve seconds. Then downstairst to their horses which were waiting to be hitched. And were out the door to a fire in about a minute. Quite impressive.Especially when you consider that they had to harness the horses. Maybe the had the harness overhead so it could be simply lowered onto the horse, with a little judicious guiding, and connected up.

I wonder if the horses were trained to raise their tails so the crupper could be put on with a minimum of time delay.

[diggleblop]

I may have overlooked, but why did firehouses have spiral staircases?

[samclem]

I may have overlooked, but why did firehouses have spiral staircases? First you have to assume that a majority of them did. I'm not sure that's true. Love to see some statistics.

I assume it was a style at the time. Another thought would be that trying to save room in a building design, you might choose a spiral staircase over one which took more space but flowed more gracefully. This might be especially important in big cities where space would be more at a premium as opposed to more rural towns.

[slaphead]

First you have to assume that a majority of them did. I'm not sure that's true. Love to see some statistics.
To derail the discussion a bit further, I wonder whether the firehouses that had spiral stairs also have poles to slide down, and whether all (or most) firehouses had poles. It would intuitively make some sense to replace the space used by a single 'normal' stair with one pole and one spiral stair, but it might make it tricky to get anything bulky upstairs (mattresses, tables and the like).

Anyhow, I can't imagine having heavy draught horses ambling up flights of wooden stairs would be that big a problem - they tend to be a bit chary of anything with a bit of wobble or give underfoot. Our pony once ended up in the living room with his head in the salad bowl, but they were solid stone steps and he was more than usually bonkers, even by pony standards. He did make a bit of a fuss about going down again, but that was because he wanted to stay for lunch more than anything...

[CalMeacham]

may have overlooked, but why did firehouses have spiral staircases?


To hold up their pants!

[Jackmannii]

The cows-not-going-down-stairs story makes for nice urban legends (http://www.grinnell.edu/sandb/archives/volume_121/number_23/features/article01.html).
Horses are big, dangerous animals. :eek:

[Martiju]

I am a little confused here. I saw a rescue programme once where people out riding in Jersey (CI) had been caught out by the tide and taken refuge on a tower - of which there are many littering the coast. They were then unable to get the horses down the steps to dry land the next day. The programme showed video footage of the eventual rescue, which involved using JCBs to cover the steps with sand making them into a gentle slope, which the animals were reluctantly led down.

Now I can't be sure that the reason the horses got stuck wasn't just fear, but certainly some thought that the steps were the difficulty, and that a ramp was the only answer.

[t-bonham@scc.net]

I am a little confused here. I saw a rescue programme once where people out riding in Jersey (CI) had been caught out by the tide and taken refuge on a tower - of which there are many littering the coast. They were then unable to get the horses down the steps to dry land the next day. These riders were just too stupid to know that their horses could indeed have gone down the steps.

Not a surprise, they were stupid enough to get caught by the tide (which isn't exactly unexpected, after all).