Subliminable?!

[Unauthorized Cinnamon]

You've probably heard the frenzy over the "subliminal message" in one of Bush's ads. But did you hear his comments? In his denial of any knowledge of the "Rats" message, Bush pronounces "subliminal" as "subliminable." Now, everyone has a slip of the tongue sometimes, and at first I just assumed he garbled what he meant to say. But then he said it the exact same way two more times!!

(NPR has the outline of this morning's show at http://search.npr.org/cf/cmn/cmnpd01fm.cfm?PrgDate=09/13/2000&PrgID=3, but the audio isn't up yet.)

Please folks, this guy is clearly an idiot. Even if I agreed with his policies, I would be embarrassed to vote for him. Tell me, folks who plan to vote for him, how do you get past this type of thing? It's not a one time thing, either. He pronounces "statistics" as "satistics," and we all know about the world leaders quiz debacle. He probably says "nucular" too.

Couldn't the Republicans have come up with someone better?

[Unauthorized Cinnamon]

Crap, NPR's webmaster was just teasing me - the outline of the show is down, presumably while they add the audio files. But later today or tomorrow, you can go to http://www.npr.org/programs/morning/ and select "Latest Show" or select the 9/13/00 show to get to the story.

[IzzyR]

I heard the same thing. It sounds to me like he has a speech defect.

[IzzyR]

I would also add that the idea that Bush is "clearly an idiot" is itself more idiotic than anything that Bush himself has ever said, or might concievably say. Were this the case it would have manifested itself in more meaningful ways by now.

[CnoteChris]

Hmm.

Couple threads floating around here about this guy. His recent and numerous gaffe's remind me of the Quayle days.

Since I didn't add it to the others, I'll add it here.

A report I heard this morning quoted some gal at a clinic in New York as saying he has a learning disorder. His brother does, and she believes the evidence shows it's hereditary.

Makes you wonder, I guess, but I'll wait and see.

[mipsman]

He is going down, for this and other perceived moronacies. Maybe if you Country Club Republicans start apologizing right now, McCain will forgive you and take it 2004.

[Zumba The Cat]

Originally posted by AerynSun
Please folks, this guy is clearly an idiot. Even if I agreed with his policies, I would be embarrassed to vote for him. Tell me, folks who plan to vote for him, how do you get past this type of thing

I plan to vote for Bush. I personally don't think he is an idiot because of the way that he pronounces a few words.

I took a college course in statistics with a professor who insisted on pronouncing it "satistics". I don't know why he did this, but he clearly was a very intelligent man. I have taken other classes and met other people who have weird ways of pronouncing certain words. I don't believe it means they are stupid.

I also think that people who say Bush is clearly an idiot are not thinking clearly themselves. Bush is not clearly an idiot. Men who are idiots do not make it as far as he has. I would rather vote for a man who has an odd pronunciation of a few words then a man who thinks that he took initiative in inventing the Internet.

[jmullaney]

Originally posted by IzzyR
It sounds to me like he has a speech defect.

Hek-cue conferned sons a bitches - 'scalled a Tehks-an accent e y'all know darn'd rat tooter that be where dubya hangsis hat. This yeller bellied menthol defishency wouldn't be nothing if'n he talked laik a damned yankee one bit. Ah im purse-nally 'nsulted by these infernal con-note-haitians that the whole of Texas must then be uncape-bull of forming words andor sentses that have rhyme or reason to it that anyone with half his ass in the saddle knows what then and thare is being said.

So git over it peephole!

(resumes trying to fit in with the Bwhastinaws -- er... Boston-ers)

[Unauthorized Cinnamon]

I think it is reasonable to criticize the speech patterns of a public figure who no doubt has speech writers, coaches, and various other handlers who must be pointing out these errors to him.

If the man stuttered or had a lisp, that would not be an indication of his intelligence and/or care. But I'm not aware of any speech defect that causes this kind of phenomenon - maybe you can enlighten me, Izzy.

Zumba, if you don't think idiots rise to positions of great power, I think you need some history education. I guess we should be grateful that he's not insane (as far as we know).

Also, BTW, I'm no great fan of Gore, either, and I loathe Lieberman. But I'll probably have to vote for Gore because he's less likely to appoint right-wing Supreme Court Justices. Basically, I think anyone who wants to be President is most likely a conniving, lying opportunist, which makes voting in elections a challenge.

[lissener]

Originally posted by Zumba The Cat
. . . Men who are idiots do not make it as far as he has. I would rather vote for a man who has an odd pronunciation of a few words then a man who thinks that he took initiative in inventing the Internet.
Well you should know, because you are clearly an idiot.

"Men who are idiots do not make it as far as he has"?!?!?!? What universe do you live in?

And it's not an "odd pronunciation of a few words": it's more evidence that that man can't effing read. He thinks there's a B in the word because he's never taken the time to actually read the word. He exists in a purely verbal world. For the same reason, he DOES INDEED say nucular.

If he knew what the fokking words looked like, he wouldn't make such an utter jumping fool of himself every time he opens his stoopid mouth.

And anyone who continues to assert that Gore took credit for inventing the Internet, especially in light of the many threads on that subject in this forum, is just showing what an idiot they are. You are.

[jmullaney]

Originally posted by lissener
it's more evidence that that man can't effing read. He thinks there's a B in the word because he's never taken the time to actually read the word. He exists in a purely verbal world.

So, JFK must be a retard to by your definition. Have you ever heard him, or his brothers for that matter, speak on tape?

"Pahk the cah in Hahvud yahd"

It's Harvard not "Hahvud. And yet, the effing U. named a whole school after the guy.

But obviously, Kennedy never read the word the whole way through or he would have seen there is a letter "R" in there.

[IzzyR]

AerynSun:I'm not aware of any speech defect that causes this kind of phenomenon - maybe you can enlighten me, Izzy.Sure. The words in question are not those that roll off the tongue easily. Many people who are not proficient in pronunciation tend to mangle such words in strange ways.

lissener,

1. Where is all this hostility coming from?

2. I evidently inhabit the same universe as Zumba The Cat because in mine, as in hers, "men who are idiots do not make it as far as he has". I think you may have a very expansive definition of the word idiot, or else your own judgement is severely in question.

3. Al Gore did not take credit for inventing the internet in a scientific sense, but he was indeed attempting to imply that he had a larger role than he actually had. (Typical political jive. Far from unique to Gore, of course, but he does seem to have raised it to a new level).

[Thing 1]

Lissener, There is a B in the word. What are you, an idiot?

John

[Zumba The Cat]

[i]Originally posted by lissener
And anyone who continues to assert that Gore took credit for inventing the Internet, especially in light of the many threads on that subject in this forum, is just showing what an idiot they are. You are. [/B]

I was not aware that in order to post to SDMB you had to have read and agreed with every prior thread or risked being attacked. I did not say that he took credit. I said that he said he took "initiative in creating the internet". Which, I believe to be exactly what he said. Feel free to correct me and provide a site if I am wrong. I am sure that YOU have never been wrong about anything.

I don't know what bug flew up your ass lissener but you seem awful hostile. I never called you any names and I don't think that there is room for such behavior in a intelligent debate. If you would like to make this personal we can take it elsewhere.

[pldennison]

And it's not an "odd pronunciation of a few words": it's more evidence that that man can't effing read. He thinks there's a B in the word because he's never taken the time to actually read the word. He exists in a purely verbal world. For the same reason, he DOES INDEED say nucular.

If he knew what the fokking words looked like, he wouldn't make such an utter jumping fool of himself every time he opens his stoopid mouth.

I think it is reasonable to criticize the speech patterns of a public figure who no doubt has speech writers, coaches, and various other handlers who must be pointing out these errors to him.

If the man stuttered or had a lisp, that would not be an indication of his intelligence and/or care. But I'm not aware of any speech defect that causes this kind of phenomenon - maybe you can enlighten me, Izzy.


You know, I'm not going to sit here and speculate about how stupid or smart GWB might be, or how much of a tendency he might have to mangle words, but if either of you two can sit there with a straight face and tell me you've never heard of dyslexia, I'll have to wonder if you were raised by wolves. (FTR, dyslexia is defined medically as "A term used to describe a condition in which an individual with normal vision is unable to properly interpret written language. Dyslexia is more common in males and is often first recognised as a reading difficulty in the first grade. Individuals can see and recognise letters but are unable to spell and write words. They have no impairment of object or picture identification. Dyslexia is not related to intelligence and in fact several famous scholars were thought to be dyslexic (for example Albert Einstein, Thomas Edison). The exact cause of dyslexia is unknown.")

Now, I don't know if GWB does or doesn't have dyslexia, but what if he does? It can be a lot more severe than just reading "bog" instead of "dog," and similar transpositions and reversals. It can result in a lifelong impairment in reading, recognizing and pronouncing words, a situation I can only imagine would be exacerbated by being asked to speak in front of large audiences, often extemporaneously, and for publication.

Should the possibility of dyslexia disqualify someone from being President? Hardly, IMHO.

[Gaudere]

lissener:
Well you should know, because you are clearly an idiot.


[Moderator Hat ON]

That's inappropriate for this forum, lissener. Please post insults in The BBQ Pit only.

[Moderator Hat OFF]

[MovieMogul]

So, JFK must be a retard to by your definition. Have you ever heard him, or his brothers for that matter, speak on tape?

"Pahk the cah in Hahvud yahd"

It's Harvard not "Hahvud. And yet, the effing U. named a whole school after the guy.

But obviously, Kennedy never read the word the whole way through or he would have seen there is a letter "R" in there.

Um, that's what you'd call an accent. Not quite the same as adding suffixes that don't exist.

Lissener, There is a B in the word. What are you, an idiot?

Um, he meant a second B and you know it (at least if you bothered to read all the posts in context)

[CnoteChris]

By the way, jmullaney, Kennedy did have a learning disorder.

[jmullaney]

Originally posted by pldennison
Now, I don't know if GWB does or doesn't have dyslexia, but what if he does?

I grew up in Texas, in a couple of the major cetral cities, surrounded by fellow out of staters (San Antonio, military town, Austin, college town).

None-the-less, I still say "y'all" and "nucular" (you mean that is wrong?) even though I've lived up here in Yankee, er... Red Sox territory for 3 years I just can't stop.

I know when I talk to people here they must think I'm a little touched in the head, but when I go back now to my folks who've bought a ranch in West Texas, I get the same funny looks unless I do my best drawl. Out there, only a four hour drive from where W. grew up, people really do talk like Texans.

I've got friends here who are from Germany, and they've been here three years and still sound stilted at best. At worst, they have developed Boston-German accents so I have a doubly hard time understanding them.

Now, does anyone seriously think Bush would be catching hell if he talked like a New Yorker or Bostonian instead of a Texan?

If Kennedy's accent was due to a learning disorder, I'm now living in a state full of "retahds."

[lissener]

Originally posted by jmullaney
. . . Now, does anyone seriously think Bush would be catching hell if he talked like a New Yorker or Bostonian instead of a Texan? . . .Oh, please: sublimnblbnlbnlnblblbl is not a Texas accent--I was born and raised in Dallas. It's apathy; he doesn't even care enough to look at the damn word for a few seconds.

And yes, "nucular" is wrong.

[Shodan]

If oral sex isn't sex, and lying under oath isn't perjury, why can't 'subliminable' be 'subliminal'?

And where does NPR get off criticizing someone's speech patterns? Listen to their newscasts. They can't get thru two days without at least one blunder. Bush gives a dozen speeches a day. The only kind of person who could speak that much and not make a mispronunciation is an over-programmed robot with no ideas of his own to distract him. Wait a second, who could that be describing....

Some one asked where the hostility is coming from. It's coming from the media, and it's based on the fact that Bush is even with Gore in the polls. Therefore, they focus on whatever trivialities they can find to prevent discussion of the issues.

[Sofa King]

Bush Campaign Denies Candidate Is Dyslexic

PALM BEACH, Fla. (Reuters) - George W. Bush's campaign dismissed a report that the Republican presidential nominee may be dyslexic, calling it ``fiction stranger than truth.''

An article in the magazine Vanity Fair by best-selling author Gail Sheehy, who frequently writes psychological portraits of politicians, concluded that the Texas governor's often-mocked malapropisms on the campaign trail could stem from dyslexia, a language-based disability in which the sufferer has trouble processing words or sentences.

Among the slips that Sheehy cites as possibly caused by the disability are: ``Reading is the basics for all learning,'' ``Put food on your family,'' and ``The senator cannot have it both ways. He can't take the high horse and then claim the low road.''


from http://www.jokes.com/hnn/09_12_2000.reodd-story-bcoddbushdc.html

Heh, heh. "Fiction stranger than truth." Wonder if Dubya crafted that response himself?

[lissener]

Originally posted by Shodan
. . . And where does NPR get off criticizing someone's speech patterns? . . .
Geez, where the hostility coming from?

Cool it, dude: read the damn thread.

NPR never made any reference, of any kind, to the pronunciation. They reported on the flak, including a side report suggesting that A) subliminnablblblblllbbbbpht advertising is utter nonsense, and B) that Bush's people are very unlikely to have attempted it. In other words, their coverage was admirably objective, and left me with the opinion that the flak was laughable.

In the course of their report, they played a recording of Dubya speaking about the "issue." The OP is the one who made a reference to the mispronunciation, not NPR.

[jmullaney]

Originally posted by lissener
Oh, please: sublimnblbnlbnlnblblbl is not a Texas accent--I was born and raised in Dallas.

With all due respect, and the TV show not-with-standing, I've never met anyone from Dallas (or Houston) with a real Texas accent. The big Railroad towns have always had such an influx of northerners that people there talk just like Dan Rather as best I can tell. You need to get out to places like Midland (at least a six hour drive from Dallas -- almost as far as Boston is from Montreal) where Bush grew up to get the full flavor.

[lissener]

Originally posted by jmullaney
. . . With all due respect . . . I've never met anyone from Dallas (or Houston) with a real Texas accent. . . .With all due respect, I never said I had a Texas accent. But I certainly know one when I hear one: most of my teachers growing up had Texas accents, many of the people I knew were not first-generation transplants, and despite your implication to the contrary, I did occasionally come up out of the basement (this is Texas joke: there are not basements in Texas*) and even, yes, ventured outside of Dallas.

I emphatically maintain that sublimnblbnlbnlnblblbl is in no way, shape, or form a Texas accent.

[lissener]

*PLEASE don't someone who lives in Texas over a basement post a reply to this insisting that there are exceptions to this. Get a sense of humor.

[jmullaney]

Originally posted by lissener
I emphatically maintain that sublimnblbnlbnlnblblbl is in no way, shape, or form a Texas accent.

I maintain that the conflagrination...

er...

I mean combining or misuse of end modifiers (such as able) of multisyllable words, especially those of latin origified words, er...

I mean, well, whatever the heck I'm trying to say, that action is of peculiarism to Texas, perhaps mostly South and West Texas among gringoes, especially men.

Really.

[Thing 1]

For the record, I do not think lissener is an idiot. That said:



"Um, he meant a second B and you know it (at least if you bothered to read all the posts in context)"

ArchiveGuy, I know what he meant as well as what he said. I was simply trying to point out that labeling someone an idiot because of a simple mistake is not justified. After all, I am sure lissener knew what George meant as well. I do not know if George Busch is an idiot or not, but I am not willing to say he is based on this error.

John

[Kimstu]

Among the slips that Sheehy cites as possibly caused by the disability are: ``Reading is the basics for all learning,'' ``Put food on your family,'' and ``The senator cannot have it both ways. He can't take the high horse and then claim the low road.''


Wha-hoo, violent flashback time! All I can say is that whatever psycholinguistic issues the Shrub has got, they are definitely hereditary, because his daddy used to sound just like that. Anybody remember famous bumbles such as "We have had sex" (he was trying to say "setbacks") or (in response to a question about an opponent's comparative manhood) "I'll put mine up against his any day" or "Don't cry for me, Argentina. Message: I care", or what Molly Ivins used to call his "verbless mode"? Ivins and Calvin Trillin basically agreed that Bush Sr. just had a tin ear for language and a really bad speaking style. (The latter was probably a tragic result of trying to make him open his mouth when he spoke in public. New England preppies just can't do that, you know: extra bones in the jaw region, or something. ;)) Interestingly enough, btw, I never heard that that was the case with his own daddy, Sen. Prescott Bush. But whatever it is, the Shrub seems to have inherited it, so I'm going to start paying closer attention to his speeches (the debates in particular ought to be really good) in the hope of picking up more gems. Nothin' but good times ahead!

[GLWasteful]

Well, if he has dyslexia, then I'm a little more inclined to cut him some slack. But if he does, then turning loose the deniers strikes me as less than intelligent. Which brings us full circle back to "Shrub is an idiot."

The lead story here (http://www.bushoncrack.com/) gives a rather amusing take on it.

Waste

[Ukulele Ike]

Originally posted by mipsman
He is going down, for this and other perceived moronacies. Maybe if you Country Club Republicans start apologizing right now, McCain will forgive you and take it 2004.

I just have to wind back the clock a few turns to say that mipsman seems to have nailed the situation pertty well.

Another couple of weeks and all of the Bushlet apologists, including the ones who are members here, will be getting awfully tired of saying "He's NOT an idiot, he just can't pronounce words in English!" and "He's NOT an idiot, some evil video designer put the word 'RATS' in there as a joke!" and "He's NOT an idiot, he just likes to depend on advisors who worked for his Dad, that's all!" and "He's NOT an idiot, he just didn't understand that the microphone was live!" and "He's NOT an idiot, he probably COULD have gotten into Andover and Yale and Harvard Business School without banking on his name, and I'll bet all those rich Texans would have loaned him money, too!" and "He's NOT an idiot, Cheney will make a FINE Vice President!" and "He's NOT an idiot, doctors say that occasional recreational use of cocaine is actually good for the heart!" and they'll just throw up their hands and start working on electing McCain in four years.

[Sofa King]

Man, somebody had better tell this poor guy that he's not dancing in Shinola. And hand him a pocket dictionary:

'''One frame out of 900 hardly in my judgment makes a conspiracy,''' [GWB, in response to one of the many questions about the subliminal message.]

from Boston Globe (http://boston.com/dailyglobe2/257/nation/Aides_use_humor_to_counter_ad_flap+.shtml)

[lissener]

Originally posted by jmullaney
. . . I maintain that the conflagrination...

er...

I mean combining or misuse of end modifiers (such as able) of multisyllable words, especially those of latin origified words, er...

I mean, well, whatever the heck I'm trying to say, that action is of peculiarism to Texas, perhaps mostly South and West Texas among gringoes, especially men.

Really.

You're talking about a practice I like to call obfuscatory sesquipedalianism, also known variously as sciolism and talking out of your ass.

And I must protestatiously insistificate that it is pernisculous stereotypicatiosity to implicationalize that it's speficicatious to Southern White Men.

In any case it's not relevant here, where the issue at hand is simple illiteracy.

[lissener]

Originally posted by Zumba The Cat
. . . I said that he said he took "initiative in creating the internet". . . .
Read your own fucking post: you used the word inventing, which Gore never has, and is at the root of this urban legend.

[lissener]

Originally posted by Gaudere


That's inappropriate for this forum, lissener. Please post insults in The BBQ Pit only.

[Moderator Hat OFF]

Sorry; noted.

[jmullaney]

Originally posted by lissener
In any case it's not relevant here, where the issue at hand is simple illiteracy.

If it is simply the result of an accent it says nothing in regards to illiteracy.

You might even chalk this up to over literacy, since subliminable is the conflation of sublimable and subliminal.

[jmullaney]

(and you should probably sit down and watch King of the Hill some day. That guy who mumbles everything he says is only an exagerated parody of the Texan accent I am talking about)

[Sofa King]

j, when you combine improper pronunciation of a word with apparent ignorance about what a subliminal message actually is, I for one start to get a little nervous about the man's literacy.

[lissener]

Originally posted by jmullaney
. . . subliminable is the conflation of sublimable and subliminal. [/B]Puh-leeze. :rolleyes:

If George Dubblblblblblblyou Bush has the word [sublimable in his vocabulary--if it's ever been in anything he's ever even read--I'll eat his fokking saddle.

[GLWasteful]

Well, Uke, last I heard, McCain was pretty adamantly saying that he had his shot, and lost. Therefore, he would never again entertain thoughts of the presidency. So they might have to look elsewhere.

Myself, I'm waiting for a bi-partisan ticket with the retired senator from Georgia and either Shrub or Jeb.

Nunn Bush in 2004!

Waste

[Sofa King]

...Then again, perhaps I would be better served by getting nervous about my own literacy.

[jmullaney]

Originally posted by lissener
If George Dubblblblblblblyou Bush has the word [sublimable in his vocabulary--if it's ever been in anything he's ever even read--I'll eat his fokking saddle.

You don't think in all his years of education he took a basic chemestry course??? Man, start sharpening your knife and fork. I'll contact the Bush campaign and let them contact you as to where to mail the saddle.

[lissener]

Glad to have supplied you with a red herring to stretch to the snapping point. Don't mention it.

[RickJay]

It didn't take the Democrats long to capitalize:

http://www.gore2000.com/rats.jpg


(I hope that worked)

[RickJay]

Originally posted by RickJay
It didn't take the Democrats long to capitalize:

http://www.gore2000.com/rats.jpg


(I hope that worked)


Ah, crap. Anyway, refer to http://www.gore2000.com to see some nifty rat-related campaign buttons and such.

[wolfman]

Come on, the guy misprounonces a word, and that makes him an idiot. A lot of very intelligent people I know misspeak words all the time. I knew a very intelligent guy who always said orgasm instead of organism. He obviously knew the difference, but it was just a little tic of his brain, and the more he thought about the word, the more likely it was to come out the wrong way. My brain likes to throw an extra sylable into several words. Vegtable often comes out as veg-it-a-ble. I clearly know how it is supposed to sound, but for some reason when I use it in the middle of a sentence it just slips in there and I feel like an idiot. Seeing as how Bush has handlers around him night and day, I figure it is near impossible that he doesn't know the correct way to pronounce. Its probably just something that never comes out in the right way.

[Ukulele Ike]

I think his handlers probably just took it for granted that Dubya KNEW how to pronounce "subliminal." Cantcha just picture them behind the scenes at the press conference, grimacing and grinding their teeth every time he got it wrong? "Why didn't you tell him how to pronounce it?" "Huh? Why didn't YOU tell him how to pronounce it?!?"

[jmullaney]

Originally posted by RickJay
It didn't take the Democrats long to capitalize:

http://www.gore2000.com/rats.jpg

The real question is, if that is Gore's website, why is he selling Bush/Cheney T-shirts? And Bush is the dumb candidate :D ?

[Initial Entry]

Vegtable often comes out as veg-it-a-ble. I clearly know how it is supposed to sound, but for some reason when I use it in the middle of a sentence it just slips in there and I feel like an idiot

Would it make you feel any better to learn that the word is spelled "Vegetable"? (and yes, it can be pronounced very similarly to how you spelled it..(copying out of Websters)..vej'i t(upsidedown "e") bel)

In any case, come on here people. If he constantly pronounced one word wrong, if he didn't deny(or admitted) that he had dyslexia, if he didn't keep making utterly boneheaded misreadings, mispronunciations, and misunderstandings of simple words then you might have a case here. But he doesn't. Face it, the guy is about as bright as a wet match.

[Zenster]

Originally posted by Ukulele Ike
Another couple of weeks and all of the Bushlet apologists, including the ones who are members here, will be getting awfully tired of saying "He's NOT an idiot, he just can't pronounce words in English!" and "He's NOT an idiot, some evil video designer put the word 'RATS' in there as a joke!" and "He's NOT an idiot, he just likes to depend on advisors who worked for his Dad, that's all!" and "He's NOT an idiot, he just didn't understand that the microphone was live!" and "He's NOT an idiot, he probably COULD have gotten into Andover and Yale and Harvard Business School without banking on his name, and I'll bet all those rich Texans would have loaned him money, too!" and "He's NOT an idiot, Cheney will make a FINE Vice President!" and "He's NOT an idiot, doctors say that occasional recreational use of cocaine is actually good for the heart!" and they'll just throw up their hands and start working on electing McCain in four years. [/B]

Great post there Ukulele Ike, it just about sums up his campaign team's strategy for the next month.

Anyone see the 60 Minutes II interview with Bush's "Guru" Olasky? This guy is pissing in Shrub's ear and telling him that it's raining. If Dubya is buying even 1% of the drivel that this wonk is spewing, he really must be a drooling idiot. Olasky is trying to distinguish between, "Freedom For Religion" and "Freedom From Religion". Please see my latest thread on this new threat to our Constitution at:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=38281

I personally doubt that Bush ever took anything beyond an introductory chemistry course (or whatever it took to get his breadth requirements). I also doubt that Shrub could describe the physical process of sublimation (i.e., the direct transformation of a substance from solid to vapor phase). Therefore, I find it ludicrous to even think that he would know the word "sublimable".

This guy is a loose cannon that is shooting off some of the most hilarious malaprops I've ever heard. Hilarious that is, until you think of having this nit wit in the Oval Office. More than anything, it reminds me of Homer Simpson saying, "Saxamaphone." Let's fry this dumbflock in the election so he can fade back into the woodwork with all the rest of the insect brains.

You have to wonder if Dubya's handlers are even going to put their stint with Shrub's election campaign on their resumes.

[Zumba The Cat]

lissener - Are you always so ugly? Maybe I am just a "newbie" but that doesn't give you the right. I was upset by your attack and misquoted myself. You know the point of what I was saying and I asked you to provide me with a link if I misquoted Al Gore. You don't want to debate anything, just insult me. Maybe if you are so much smarter then everyone else you should run for president.

I stand by what I said. Some people always mispronounce certain words and that does not mean they are stupid. Al Gore, and all other presidential candidates past and present, have said stupid things and that doesn't mean they are idiots. And, I believe that in the United States idiots are not able to rise to such levels of power. There are enough checks in our system to weed out the true idiots out much earlier.

[jmullaney]

Originally posted by Zenster
I also doubt that Shrub could describe the physical process of sublimation

You don't think he's even seen dry ice?

It seems like a lot of people are starting with the conclusion as their axiom -- G.W. Bush is stupid. Thus, he's stupid. Y'all are showing yourselves to be real rocket scientists, let me tell you.

If this isn't how people talk in Texas, why is it these malapropisms, as you call them, were never an issue during his campaigns for Governor?

I'd rather have someone who is as smart as the rest of us, good-old-boy or not, than some snob who think he and mommy government knows what is best for me.

[Zenster]

Originally posted by jmullaney
Originally posted by Zenster
I also doubt that Shrub could describe the physical process of sublimation

You don't think he's even seen dry ice?


Just because you've seen dry ice "melting" doesn't mean you either understand or know the word sublimation.

Carefully examine your own rocket science before launching.

[jmullaney]

Originally posted by Zenster
Just because you've seen dry ice "melting" doesn't mean you either understand or know the word sublimation.

Well, I give up. Just because you've seen water falling in drops from the sky doesn't mean you either understand or know the word rain either but there you go.

OK, I learned the word sublime in high school chem, but maybe George was just a fan of the rock band by the same name and looked it up?

Who cares?

I'll be lurking on another thread to see if there are any people who think Gore's tax cut is better for the country than Bushes.

(I'm voting for Nader anyway)

[Flymaster]

As a Computer Science student at a major technical institute, who recieved a 5 on the AP Physics B exam and a grade of A in HS chemistry, I can honestly say that I do not have anything beyond the VAGUEST idea of what the word "sublimable" means. To assume that GWB does is a MAJOR stretch.

[Sterra]

I like to add a extra 5 syllables to subliminable because each time i try saying it it comes out wrong. Its what you call an accent and insulting someones intelligence because of their debating skills is stupid.(though its not really suprising here)

[mipsman]

Probably the reason why Bush's tortured malaproprisms were never an issue in his elections in Texas is that it is standard operating procedure here to get your job through your dad and his rich friends. Merit has little to do with it so demerits don't matter either.

[JDeMobray]

Originally posted by Asmodean
I like to add a extra 5 syllables to subliminable because each time i try saying it it comes out wrong. Its what you call an accent and insulting someones intelligence because of their debating skills is stupid.(though its not really suprising here)

. . . .Thank you for the contribution, Mr. Bush.

Stuttering would be one thing, however, as Dubya repeated the word several times, mispronouncing it the same way each time, I think we can rule out a stutter. (Assuming that is what you meant by 'each time i try saying it it comes out wrong'.)

It's certainley not what I call an accent, nor does my coworker (who's from Houston). However, I will say that insulting his intelligence based soley on his repeated and constant mispronounciation is a bit silly. Insulting his intelligence based on the various other boneheaded things that Dubya has done. . . that's different. :)

[foolsguinea]

Originally posted by Zenster
... Olasky is trying to distinguish between, "Freedom For Religion" and "Freedom From Religion".

What, "for" and "from" are synonyms? It's a genuine distinction, and not understanding it is a lot worse than not knowing what "subliminal advertising" is. There are small ignorances, and then there are stupidities that make one incapable of thinking logically. Equating "for" & "from" is definitely one of the latter.



I personally doubt that Bush ever took anything beyond an introductory chemistry course (or whatever it took to get his breadth requirements). I also doubt that Shrub could describe the physical process of sublimation (i.e., the direct transformation of a substance from solid to vapor phase). Therefore, I find it ludicrous to even think that he would know the word "sublimable".

Yeah, I managed to get a GED without taking a chemistry course as such, and so I could easily get a B.A. without it--I do know what "sublimation" is though, so if I were told that "sublimable" had a chemistry meaning (rather than, say, a psychological or philosophical meaning) I would figure it out--but it's not a real important word to a non-chemist. red herring.

Anyway, mispronunciation isn't the big issue you lot make it out to be. Lots of people make malaproppish statements and flub words, whether speaking in public or not. It doesn't make tham idiots, and it certainly doesn't mean they're loose cannons. Others make sure to pronounce every word they use distinctly and correctly, and it doesn't make them smart.

Have you really paid attention to how Gore speaks? oy! He tries very hard to maximize his speeches' power, and create a hammer of propagandistic force. If you can see through him, it looks forced, even fake. But a lot of people will be swept up in his apparent passion for what he says.

Bush, on the other hand, is pretty laid-back, & has a different kind of awareness (or lack of awareness) about his ignorance of those things he is not fully expert in, & how to talk about them.

Neither of these guys is a genius, or a master of many subjects. Gore's problem may be that he wants us to think he is. I'm afraid he's too high-strung to handle the stress of being President; he may be just nuts enough to go off the deep end and start nuking small countries to appear in control, or he may just piss off every other world leader on multiple levels. In comparison, a laid-back idiot might do less damage.

(Of course, I would rather have Hagelin than either of these schmucks, and so would you. VOTE NATURAL LAW in 2000.)

[foolsguinea]

And another thing: It's not an accent, it's a dialect.

Didn't Mao Zedong speak in a thick Hunan dialect?
Wasn't Napoleon a Corsican, who had to learn Parisian French as he ascended to primacy?
James I of England was a Scot; &, um... (Good grief, is that all I can think of?)

OK, maybe not the most inspiring examples in history, but anyway, these are people who did rule, who made history, who were not imbeciles--and they came from territories which spoke whole different dialects than those spoken in the respective capitals. (Of course, two of them were revolutionaries, but that's another discussion.)

How would you like being mocked for spelling "analyze" with a z? Yeah, you, Yank! But yeah, saying "nucular" & "subliminable", using "basics" with a singular verb--lemme tell ya, I'm from Missouri--that's just how hicks and cowboys talk! It's nothing. Now, his disregard for the issue of "subliminal" advertising looks like it could be ignorance of its ostensible* principles, or clumsy disgenuousness. Hmmm. But dropping a "b" in a somewhat unfamiliar word--even a word you've heard and read before can be unfamiliar--or even in a familiar word, if you have hick speech patterns, isn't that big a deal. Though I thought it was, when I was 17 years old and full of myself.
__________
*Yeah, "ostensible". Don't believe everything Vance Packard tells you. Although (I haven't seen this ad, so I'm not sure) this particular ad did seem to be equating "bureaucrats" and "rats". Hmmm... Actually, that's fair, I think. :D

[Max the Immortal]

I think most of you are missing the point of this. Dubya's intellgence or accent isn't the most important thing to consider for this election. What's the most important thing? The fact that he's... what's the term? Oh yeah. He's a WORLD CLASS ASSHOLE. That gaffe about not knowing that the microphones were/could have been on supports my latest theory about Dubya. He is simply a bad statesman. If he's elected, then another slip up like that might derail an international trade treaty (or something more important). Speaking as a non-american, I'll tell you his image as seen from other countries: He's not very bright. He is a political klutz. He is not charismatic. He isn't even articulate. His facial expressions remind one of those of a child. I wouldn't trust him to sit the right way on a toilet seat. He should NOT be in charge of a country. Again, he is a bad statesman; why elect an inompetent statesman as the most important statesman in your country?

[Typo Negative]

I don't know if it says anything about his intelligence. I myself used to add a syllable or two to words when I was drinking. Maybe he a few brews before the reporters showed up.

But it's certainly not dyslexia. I've know several (almost married one). Yes, they transpose letters when reading and writing, and may mispronounce something simple when reading aloud from a card. But they do not mispronounce words they know and have used before.

I'm not saying the man's not dyslexic. I'm just saying it wasn't a factor here.

But really, this isn't much of an issue. Hey, if you're followed around by reporters 24/7, they're gonna catch you making some kind of mistake.

[Unauthorized Cinnamon]

foolsguinea said:What, "for" and "from" are synonyms? It's a genuine distinction

I believe that Zenster is saying that "Freedom of [or "for"]religion" necessarily encompasses freedom from religion, as most people think of it.

For instance, you could fairly say that my religion is Humanism. Both of these "beliefs" hold that there is no god of any kind, and that there are in general no supernatural forces. I'm sure Olasky would say I'm asking for Freedom from religion if I simply described my disbelief. But this disbelief in itself is recognized as a "religion." Therefore, the First Amendment must protect disbelief to the same extent it protects belief. So in the end, freedom for religion IS freedom from (traditional) religion.

Here's a link to a US Supreme Court case regarding religious tests for public office (check out footnote 11 for some atheistic religions): Torcaso v. Watkins (http://caselaw.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&linkurl=<%LINKURL%>&graphurl=<%GRAPHURL%>&court=US&case=/us/367/488.html)

(Is it hijacking if you do it to your own thread?)

[Unauthorized Cinnamon]

Of course, "Both of these 'beliefs' hold " should read "This 'belief' holds."

Now, if I make that same mistake two more times, you all are justified in assuming that I'm an idiot.

[wring]

I've watched this one unfold. geez.

FTR: I wouldn't vote for Bush if he were running for Drum Major for the Coast Guard.

that being said. While I did chuckle at his mispronounciation, I don't see it as the crux of the biscuit as it were. Subliminal is hardly a word in common usage, and yea, I think he probably had no idea what it meant (some one should really have coached him on that) - otherwise he'd not have said the line about "one frame in 900" (or is my understanding of subliminal wrong ? that one would attempt to put a subliminal message into another visual thread by inserting a single short shot in, say um, one frame in 900?)

Some of our leaders were silver tongued orators. Didn't make them (necessarily) great presidents.

[John Bredin]

"...why elect an inompetent statesman as the most important statesman in your country?"

Maxie old bean, you may be immortal but you just, by your own test, disqualified yourself from being a statesman in YOUR country.

[jmullaney]

Originally posted by wring
"one frame in 900"

Actually, that sounds perfectly right. 30 sec add x 30 fps == 900 frames.

OK, maybe it is 24 fps, I don't know.

That whole think seems like an honest video editing mistake of coordinating between drawing of the letter and the shooting of a frame, but I'm no expert.

[lissener]

Originally posted by jmullaney
. . . That whole think seems like an honest video editing mistake of coordinating between drawing of the letter and the shooting of a frame, but I'm no expert.
:rolleyes:

The makers of the commercial have not tried to say it was a mistake; the effect was intended. What's in contention is their darker motivation in re attempting to communicate a subliminablblblblblblppht message.

They're basically saying, "Hey, we just thought it looked cool. We weren't trying to take over your minds."

FWIW, I buy this completely. I think if they had been trying to embed a subliminablblblblblblppht message it would have been more an indication of stupidity than deviousness. I'm just chortling that it's given Dumbya one more chance to expose his massive intellect to the voting public. As far as I'm concerned, the stories no bigger than that. And as far as I can tell, it's already faded from prominence. Everywhere but here.

Yay SDMB!

[Maeglin]

That whole think seems like an honest video editing mistake of coordinating between drawing of the letter and the shooting of a frame,
but I'm no expert.

People in the advertising business disagree with you. They have claimed, in various TV interviews, that before a commercial is aired, they view every frame. Fact is, Alex Castellanos is the idiot here, not necessaril Dubya.

Castellanos, IIRC, also birthed that hideous Jesse Helms commercial the last time he was up for election against Harvey Gant, which insinuated that black people were stealing jobs and women from the white folks. Yeah, he's got a great track record.

As for Dubya's intelligence, I find it very hard to see how anyone can think a jaw-flapping anti-intellectual has one ounce of intelligence.

Anyone remember the Hartford Courant interview of 1988?

Anyone remember his $4.7 million dollars which he blew in his 80s oil debacles?

Anyone see him waffling around like an idiot, refusing to confront Gore in debate?

I can just see Barbara Bush shaking her head and asking George Sr., "George, what are we going to do about that boy?"

MR

[lissener]

George Sr.: He's your son.

Barbara: No, he's your son.

George Sr.: No, yours.

Barbara: No, yours.

etc.

[IzzyR]

Yeah, what a disgrace to his parents, the dummy. No doubt his accomplishments pale in comparison to what you guys have managed to accomplish, with your far superior intellects. Any details?

[Maeglin]

Yeah, what a disgrace to his parents, the dummy. No doubt his accomplishments pale in comparison to what you guys have managed to accomplish, with your far superior intellects. Any details?

What a truly preposterous line of reasoning. But I'll bite. For now.

George Bush is almost three times my age.
When he was my age, he was busier drinking, doing coke, and losing Daddy's money than I could ever be.
He has made a lifetime of terrible business decisions. He only struck gold, er, oil, when President Daddy got him a lucrative oil deal with Bahrain. Or when he screwed the town of Arlington by forcing them to shell out $191 million for a stadium for his baseball team.
Neither lissener nor I were given the opportunity to demonstrate our magnanimousness by halting unpopular and disgusting executions. How many times did W blow it?
Last but not least...neither of us are running for President! This invites the kind of scrutiny into his life, his background, and his intelligence that being a private citizen [i]doesn't[/].


So if your last line of defense for Dubya is a resounding "so what have you accomplished?", then the GOP is really screwed. That bullshit line's not going to hold until November.

MR

[PeeQueue]

This is utterly ridiculous. Listen to yourselves. "Dubya is an idiot! Don't vote for him! He's a doody-head too! Nyah Nyah."

I'm sure there's plenty of good reasons not to vote for Bush, but if this is this best one, he's sure to win. Talk about the real reasons if you want to sway anyone.

PeeQueue

[pldennison]

Hey, we could always all vote for Al "I Love Hollywood! No, Wait, I Hate Hollywood! Wait, Are They Giving Me Money This Week Or Am I Mad At Them?" Gore.

Disclaimer: No, I'm not voting for Bush. Gore either. But the whole "George Bush is an actual illiterate moron tack is just silly."

[Maeglin]

I'm sure there's plenty of good reasons not to vote for Bush, but if this is this best one, he's sure to win. Talk about the real reasons if
you want to sway anyone.

Assumptions


We are talking about voting issues.
I am trying to persuade IzzyR to change his mind and vote for Gore.
Bush's stupidity is the best reason to vote against him.


Until you have justified the above three assumptions, I suggest that you take your sanctimony elsewhere.

MR

[Nixon]

(Don't blame me - I voted for John McCain)

Ike and others may have it right - this insignificant gaffe might have dashed W's inaugural ball plans. Even moderate Republicans are wondering whether W has both the intelligence and the necessary sense of humor to handle the job.

Shit happens - its how you deal with it that counts. W's mouthing about "subliminabble" or "conspiracy theories abound!" make him look slightly loony.

On the other hand, he's done quite well. Peace and prosperity doomed Dukakis' campaign though Willie Horton and Snoopy driving a tank helped. W is neck and neck with Gore during even better times than 1988.

But what can W do to pull ahead? He can't wait for Al to goof up. Like Bush, Gore is now surrounded by guy and gal wonks who will try to prevent any more Internet or Buddhist temple gaffes.

W's team has tried to limit his damage by limiting W's access to the ***holes in the press. But this looks like just what it is = a defensive move that's like throwing chum to sharks.

Go negative? W's pal and mentor Lee Atwater is roasting in hell right now and probably not taking calls. If the "rats" ad is an example of W's negative campaign, W needs a sceance fast.

A possible solution is for Bush to go mainstream. Appear on every soccer mom talk show their is - Regis, Rosie, Oprah, Leeza, and push his charm, humor, and what he wants America to look like over the next four years. Take the spouse with him. Who knows? It might work.

[IzzyR]

Maeglin,

I have failed to understand most of your post (hey, maybe I'm an idiot too). Let me ask it this way.

If you had to bet your life on it, what do you think Bush's actual intelligence would measure, expressed as a percentile of the general population? Your best guess.

[lissener]

Seriously? 85%.

[IzzyR]

Do you mean 85% as smart as an average person, or that he is in the top 15% of the population? (The latter is the standard terminology used).

[lissener]

Originally posted by IzzyR
Do you mean 85% as smart as an average person, or that he is in the top 15% of the population? (The latter is the standard terminology used).
I answered the question you asked: the latter.

[Ukulele Ike]

Izz, I don't want to seem like I'm picking on you or anything, but your last two statements have been "What have YOU done that's so great?" and "AT least he's not as stupid as that check-out girl down at the Shop 'n' Save!"

Izz, the man is running for PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. Don't you think he SHOULD be a little brighter than the average bear, and maybe even brighter than us, who are the electronic modern-day equivalent of the loafers sittin' on the nail kegs out by Zeke's General Mercantile, whittlin' and arguin' pollyticks?

[Skott]

I have a spendancy for toonerisms, especially when making spublic peaches or in heated debates.

Am I unfit for office?

[John Corrado]

Ukelele Ike said:
Izz, the man is running for PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. Don't you think he SHOULD be a little brighter than the average bear, and maybe even brighter than us, who are the electronic modern-day equivalent of the loafers sittin' on the nail kegs out by Zeke's General Mercantile, whittlin' and arguin' pollyticks?

Why is that important?

Woodrow Wilson was probably our smartest, most educated President; but generally history looks upon him with mixed opinion as a President. Likewise, Thomas Jefferson- a brilliant man, and greater writer with a master of the English language- was a mediocre President, the Louisiana Purchase contrasted by the Failed Embargo and other mistakes.

Absolute intelligence and education does not inherently make a man a better President than moderate intelligence and/or education. In fact, for many presidents- Carter, Wilson, Kennedy- high intellectualism led to arrogance, which made a mockery of their presidencies. Conversely, Lyndon Johnson and Abraham Lincoln were no intellectual giants, but their charisma and ability to choose competent subordinates made them successes.


I'd also point out to fellow posters that I barely graduated college with a C+ average, and I mangle words regularly in conversation. If this is to you the sign of a lax mind unfit for dealing with, let me know and I'll stay out of your way in GD. Wouldn't want to bring you down by making you deal with idiots, after all.

[IzzyR]

lissenerI answered the question you asked: the latter.In that case we have no dispute. I would guess 80% (meaning the top 20%). I have no problem with a guy that smart (or dumb) being president.

Ukulele IkeIzz, I don't want to seem like I'm picking on you or anythingNo problem with that.your last two statements have been "What have YOU done that's so great?" and "AT least he's not as stupid as that check-out girl down at the Shop 'n' Save!"The central theme of this thread is that the guy is so dumb that he is not familiar with the word (and concept) subliminal. When people use this to prove his idiocy, they are implying genuine idiocy, and I am justified in my last two posts. I had earlier suggested to lissener that he was applying an expansive definition of the term idiot, and decided to address the issue directly.

As mentioned, I don't think he (Bush) is one of the worlds greatest geniuses. The same could apply to many other presidents, leaders and other people of accomplishment (including Al Gore). Obviously a true moron could not function effectively as president (or governor of Texas or Senator etc.) But once you get past a certain level of intelligence, you are at a point of diminishing returns.

Jimmy Carter was by all indications an exceptionally intelligent president. But his failings in other areas more than made up for whatever marginal advantage his great intelligence may have given him.

[IzzyR]

Hey John, you stole my post by getting in just before the board was shut down. I didn't see that you had made the same points already. Sorry.

[jmullaney]

Originally posted by Maeglin
Neither lissener nor I were given the opportunity to demonstrate our magnanimousness by halting unpopular and disgusting executions. How many times did W blow it?

Um, the Governor in Texas does not have to power to halt executions more than 30 days, and a Gov. can only do that once. Can you cite any "blown" examples?

[Maeglin]

he central theme of this thread is that the guy is so dumb that he is not familiar with the word (and concept) subliminal. When people
use this to prove his idiocy, they are implying genuine idiocy, and I am justified in my last two posts.

Read my posts again. The catalyst for Dubya-bashing may in fact be his malapropisms, but I have never used them as the primary reason for his stupidity. Bush partisans often assume this because it is relatively easy to ridicule such accusations. My attacks on Bush's intelligence and skill are, IMHO, much more important than bumbling a few words. I am more concerned with his pride, stubbornness, and gleeful lack of knowledge in certain areas which I think presidents should be experts.

I don't think that rocket scientists make the best presidents. If I did, I would vote for Hagelin. Our president must be a political animal, with skills and guts. I think Dubya is deficient in both areas, and not because he farkles speeches. His verbal mistakes may be emblematic of his deeper problems, but they aren't the most important aspect of them.

MR

[Maeglin]

Um, the Governor in Texas does not have to power to halt executions more than 30 days, and a Gov. can only do that once. Can you
cite any "blown" examples?

Well, you say you were a monk, jmullaney, perhaps you have been living in a cage for the past few years.

Ever heard of Gary Graham?

The only other countries that execute minors or the mentally ill are Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen. Oh, and Texas.

MR

[jmullaney]

Originally posted by Maeglin
Ever heard of Gary Graham?

Actually, I wrote to Governor Bush expressing my concerns with Mr. Graham's execution.

His reply was what I accept to be the truth of the matter. Namely:

- He couldn't give Mr. Graham a 30 day stay because Graham had already recieved one during Governor Richards administration
- He could not pardon Mr. Graham because the state Board did not recommend Mr. Graham for a pardon.

(I also should mention, keeping with the thread, that he spelled all his words correctly. :D)

[lissener]

Originally posted by IzzyR
I would guess 80% (meaning the top 20%). I have no problem with a guy that smart (or dumb) being president.I said 85% off the top of my pointy head. I'd class Dumbya as a C+ student, maybe B- if he stayed after school to um, beat my erasers. I think the President of the You Ess Ay should be an A+ student.

Come on, you Bush-babies. Can you really picture him in a room with Barak and Arafat and actually contributing something? Can you picture him with any head of state and not outright embarrassing himself?

Anyone who can call him presidential material with a straight face is fooling himself. Sell it somewhere else.

[jmullaney]

Originally posted by lissener
Anyone who can call him presidential material with a straight face is fooling himself. Sell it somewhere else.

Ya know -- we have these people called diplomats now, who can coduct foriegn diplomacy on a president's behalf.

All I can see Gore doing is talking condescendingly to other world leaders, and probably randomly bombing sovereign nations like his best buddy "greatest president" Clinton.

[lissener]

Originally posted by jmullaney
. . . Ya know -- we have these people called diplomats now, who can coduct foriegn diplomacy on a president's behalf. . . .Well thank you for admitting that Dumbya would be incapable of handling such a situation and would be forced to delegate out of incompetence.

I want you to seriously imagine this scenario (I don't know why I bother, you obviously won't):

Barak and Arafat are sitting at Camp David, waiting, the fate of the Middle East in their hands. President Clinton stays home--he's behind on his "Hooked on Phonics" and can't spare the time--and sends a diplomat to deal with B and A.

(This is of course what you're saying would be perfectly acceptable coming from Dumbya.)

Who would be the first person to cry foul, to claim he's shirking his responsibilities, to demand that Janet Reno open an independent investigation?

You would.

"He doesn't have to be smart--He's got advisors!"

I want one of those bumper stickers.

[jmullaney]

Well, I don't know if you understand how diplomacy works. Generally, these high level meetings are little more than photo-ops and polite conversation. I don't know if Gore putting then to sleep would be considered polite, but Camp David should definitely get some extra pillows if Gore is elected.

You really think Clinton had been hovering over every exchange at the last submit like some referee?

[lissener]

Clinton and Carter are/were extremely hands-on with their foreign policy; they are/were also extremely effective. If you kept up with things better you'd know that even among his detractors Clinton's skills as a facilitator are acknowledged. Dumbya would be even weaker in this area than his dad, who was bad enough.

[jmullaney]

Well, the Cold War is over. Bush in Texas did do a good job over running diplomacy between Dems and Repubs, in fact that is one of the best things going for him in my book. I don't see why he'd be any different in the cicurmstances you are suggesting.

[lissener]

You know what, jmullaney, this is ridiculous. [list] First you insist it's a Texas accent. Then it's the grandiocious Southernstylistical tradionatiousness of speechificationalizing like Don King. Then it's his overwhelming knowledge of chemistry bleeding over into other parts of his brain.[/i]Now you insist that stupidity and incompetence are not an obstacle to the presidency, because it's mostly just a photo-op: the real work is done other people.

We're supposed to give credence to this argument, I suppose, because your previous arguments have been so impressive?

If this were the pit I'd graciously point out that you're making a fool of yourself. Since it's not, I'll just acknowledge that you've made a fool of me by somehow keeping me actually responding to you.

[jmullaney]

Originally posted by lissener
You know what, jmullaney, this is ridiculous.[/b]
I think the whole supposition that someone who mispronouces a word can't be president is ridiculous too. I have no qualms with making an argument in just as silly a fashion in response.
We're supposed to give credence to this argument, I suppose, because your previous arguments have been so impressive?
:eek: Is that??? It can't be! No, wait -- by Jove I think that's sarcasm. Run Away!!!!
If this were the pit I'd graciously point out that you're making a fool of yourself.
Good thing it ain't, or I'd have to reply thusly: :rolleyes:

I too am worn out keeping up with such a high level of political discourse -- my mind is reeling!

But, as King of the Hill's Boomhauser would say: tha the za wa it gone be roun here gone jut git goin up back a reckon, shucks.

[Zenster]

Come on over and post in this thread too, would you?

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=38281

I like your style (and foolsguinea needs a whumpin'). I'm currently involved in a lengthy reply to his latest dollop of horseradish.

[Maeglin]

Can I come, too? :)

MR

[Drain Bead]

Did anyone see how Conan O'Brien dealt with the subject in the OP on last night's episode?

[andros]

Missed it, Drain. So spill!

[TampaFlyer]

> Tell me, folks who plan to vote for him, how do you get past this type of thing?

I would ask that of the Gore supporters. He's no rocket scientist. He's the one who flunked out of school, not Bush.
Fact is, probably anyone who does enough speeches makes the kinds of errors mentioned in this thread.

The media doesn't make a big deal over Gore's stupidities, like when he went to Monticello & couldn't identify busts of the founding fathers, or when Mr. Outdoors got lost in the woods. Or how he limits the number of black Secret Service agents protecting him.

It's too bad nobody wants to discuss the issues any more, just these sideshows.


> The only other countries that execute minors or the mentally ill are Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen. Oh, and Texas.

And Arkansas under Clinton.


> When he was my age, he was busier drinking, doing coke

I don't know if Gore did coke or not, but you shouldn't say so if there's no proof. I've only heard him admit to pot.


> the man is running for PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. Don't you think he SHOULD be a little brighter than the average bear

You're talking about Gore, right? Sadly, he's not.

[lissener]

Originally posted by TampaFlyer
> Tell me, folks who plan to vote for him, how do you get past this type of thing?

I would ask that of the Gore supporters. . . .Translated: I can't.

[SouprChckn]

There's actually a webpage out there that lists almost every verbal mishap spouted forth from George W. Bush (there are a lot more than you think). I don't remember the URL offhand (someone here prolly does tho). Either way, "subliminable" is NOT the only thing bogus he's said. He doesn't just mess up pronunciation but screws up the syntax of normal, everyday conversation. It's not an occassional occurence either, and thats why it is kind of scary.

[Klaatu]

Well, regardless of whether GW is dyslexic, an idiot or just another dumbass Texan, (I can say that, I'm from down yonder) the fact is that the average Joe Blow voter is beginning to wonder.

As was pointed out by another poster, stumbling over words does not indicate a lack of intelligence. However, these repeated missteps can be "perceived" by voters as a sign of weakness and vulnerability, especially in a presidential candidate.

Imagine GW at a NATO meeting in Athens, saying "I am thankful to my Grecian hosts, and look forward to meeting with the Serbloblians and the Kosovalarians"

These days, I believe most voters go by sound bytes, (except the enlightened Dopers of course!) and GW is sounding pretty stupidable. I personally think Condoleeza (sp?) Rice should run in place of GW. She's smart, hip, articulate, and a political babe.

Algore will win in a runaway.

[jmullaney]

Originally posted by Klaatu
just another dumbass Texan
:(


Imagine GW at a NATO meeting in Athens, saying "I am thankful to my Grecian hosts

Main Entry: Gre·cian
Pronunciation: 'grE-sh&n
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English greciane, from Latin Graecia Greece
Date: 15th century
: GREEK
- Grecian noun

Your point?

[Spoke]

TampaFlyer wrote:
[Gore] limits the number of black Secret Service agents protecting him.

That just ain't so.

This non-story got started by Cynthia McKinney, a member of the House of Representatives from here in Atlanta. There is currently a dispute between the Secret Service and some black members or former members of that organization. Ms. McKinney, as is her wont, injected herself into the dispute. The false statement about Gore appeared on her website.

The Atlanta Constitution debunked the story. (It turned out that something like 18% of the agents who had guarded Gore were black - actually higher than the percentage of blacks in the general population, I believe - and that there was no evidence Gore had ever done anything to limit the number of black agents in his entourage.)

McKinney has a bad habit of stirring up racial conflict wherever possible. After the Atlanta Constitution story came out, she disavowed the statement which had appeared on her website.

[Ptahlis]

Originally posted by jmullaney


Your point?

I think his point regarding the Greek/Grecian thing is that one is considered to be proper when speaking of people (Greek) while the other is only used for objects. So you might see Grecian urns in a museum, but the people looking at them are Greeks. It's similar to 'oriental' in that it is considered okay to have oriental tea, but don't call your guests Orientals.

[jmullaney]

Originally posted by Ptahlis
[QUOTE]I think his point regarding the Greek/Grecian thing is that one is considered to be proper when speaking of people (Greek) while the other is only used for objects. So you might see Grecian urns in a museum, but the people looking at them are Greeks. It's similar to 'oriental' in that it is considered okay to have oriental tea, but don't call your guests Orientals.

Can I get a cite on that? The dictionary doesn't make any mention of this connotation being wrong. (Of course, I could just ask my super -- but we already had a falling out over Istanbul vs. Constantinople!)

[John Corrado]

jmullaney said:

Of course, I could just ask my super -- but we already had a falling out over Istanbul vs. Constantinople.

Yeah, well, that's nobody's business but the Turks.

[Ptahlis]

I'd love to give you a cite, if I had even the faintest idea where to look. Is there a PC Dictionary online? Maybe an etiquette manual or something? Seriously, I just don't know where to find this kind of info other than to say that that's what I have heard expressed in the past.

[Avumede]

Give the guy a break. Some people are better at speaking than others. The Bush's have never been that good, at least comparing to other major politicians. Read up on the topic of speech - people make mistakes all the time, and regularly do not speak in gramatically correct sentences. Multiply an x percentage of mistakes per word by the enormous output of words a politican has to speak while running for President. Then select the best ones, air them on TV, and you suddenly have an incorrect understanding of the guy's speaking ability.

So to say that George is dumb because he mispronounces a word is to be make several mistakes: to think that you have an accurate impression of his speaking ability and vocabulary, and to believe that this indicates his intelligence.

I'm not saying George is intelligent. But to criticize the guy for pronunciation is pretty bad...

[jmullaney]

Originally posted by John Corrado
Yeah, well, that's nobody's business but the Turks.

That's what I said, but he being Greek Orthodox (we live next do to his church) he had a few bones to pick.

Why they changed it, I can't say. People just liked it better that way.

[BigGiantHead]

[super hijack]
First off, huge congratulations to jmullaney and John Corrado for conspiring on the most excellent They Might Be Giants (Dennis-Miller-esque) reference I've ever seen!
[/super hijack]

Avumede said: So to say that George is dumb because he mispronounces a word is to be make several mistakes: to think that you have an accurate impression of his speaking ability and vocabulary, and to believe that this indicates his intelligence. (my italics)
Yes, but unfortunately the voting and media-listening public will not be the only ones to make that mistake. I respectfully submit that the other people Dubya interacts with on a day by day basis will come to the same, possibly mistaken, conclusion - that he's an idiot. As lissener essentially pointed out, that would be very bad for his (and by extension the USA's) image if those people are heads of foreign nations. They'll stop listening to him. I know I would.

What's worse, imagine that the people he works with every day, his advisors and Cabinet et al., come to the same conclusion. And then they stop listening to him, and start finding ways to work around him. Then you have a potential idiot out there in front of the cameras flapping his gums while entirely other machinations run things behind him. For this reason I think it's very important NOT to "give the guy a break."

[John Bredin]

....that town with a less-than-eloquent mayor!

Seriously, Mayor Daley is infamous for disjointed and rambling speeches whenever he speaks extemp. It's the butt of jokes in the newspaper columns. Yet nobody contends that he's stupid or unqualified to be mayor. Heck, he's pretty damn popular, has been reelected solidly, and even his opponents admit he's clever and intelligent.

[lissener]

Originally posted by BigGiantHead
[super hijack]
First off, huge congratulations to jmullaney and John Corrado for conspiring on the most excellent They Might Be Giants (Dennis-Miller-esque) reference I've ever seen!
[/super hijack]. . .. . . That wasn't a TMBG reference, it was a Bette Midler reference. Duh.

[John Corrado]

Likewise, George Bush Sr. was well known for his ham-fisted sentence structure, but was considered an expert at foregin policy and negotiations.

[lissener]

Originally posted by John Bredin
. . . nobody contends that [Chicago's Mayor Daley is] stupid or unqualified to be mayor. . . .Who, Dumb-Dumb Daley? That's not my impression.

[Drain Bead]

Missed it, Drain. So spill!

Unfortunately, there's absolutely NO way to describe it and still have it be anywhere near as funny. You know how Conan does "interviews" with famous people on the TV screen behind him? It was one of those, with George W. and Cheney. Anything more than that you'll have to see in reruns. It was a good episode, too--Lieberman's version of "My Way" was top-notch hilarious.