How to survive WTC collapse/inferno?

[deanc2000]

I had heard some talk about someone surviving the WTC collapse by "riding" the skyscraper down as it collapsed. Is this true?

What would be a way to have the best chance of surviving a situation where one couldn't go down, but had to stay in a burning building?

If I were working someplace high up, I would strongly consider having an emergency parachute with me, just in case I couldn't escape down the stairs, but out the window. Has anyone ever heard of this, or done this before?

deanc2000.

[Pushkin]

How would you ride it? I would imagine that if you sat on the roof, even if it stayed perfectly level the sudden decceleration as it hits the rest of the building and comes to a halt would surely be fatal?

[MLS]

1. Urban Legend (http://www.snopes.com/rumors/survivor.htm).
2. Other than avoiding smoke inhalation and hoping to be rescued, probably none.
3. Probably wouldn't work. Here's one cite: cite (http://www.securitymanagement.com/library/001502.html):Stewart Kidd, principal of the Specialist Loss Prevention Consultancy, president of the Institute of Fire Safety Management, and registrar of The Security Institute, has been approached by suppliers of parachutes since 9-11 but has yet to be convinced. "Where would you store the parachutes, how would you maintain them, and would you be able and willing to build a cantilever structure on the outside of each floor of the building for use as a jump-off point?," challenges Kidd. "You can't just jump out of the window of a tall building with a parachute, as you would kill yourself on the way down."
And here's another (http://www.moneycentral.msn.com/content/SavingandDebt/P43687.asp) Parachuting experts point out that jumping from a high-rise building is extremely dangerous, more so if the jumper is inexperienced, or if the building is on fire. (A fire can create high winds that can slam jumpers back into the building they're trying to escape from.)

[Mangetout]

Am experienced BASE jumper would probably stand a non-zero (but possibly still rather low) chance of surviving a parachute jump from the window of a very tall building; for more or less anyone else, I expect the chances of it working are so close to zero that it isn't worth thinking about.

[Q.E.D.]

Survival in such a situation rests almost entirely on being able to get out. Most people on the floors below the fires survived, while almost none above did. It's as simple as that. When a building that big collapses and you're still in it, pure luck is the only thing that's going to save you.

[Exapno Mapcase]

I had heard some talk about someone surviving the WTC collapse by "riding" the skyscraper down as it collapsed. Is this true?


To add to the excellent debunking by MLS, this is essentially the same myth as the one that says you can survive a plummeting elevator by jumping up at the last minute. Both have the same flaw that there is stuff on top of you that is falling at the same rate and will flatten you.

Only sheer luck can save you.

[Zsofia]

What if you'd gone up to the roof? Would your chances of survival still be nil, or would you increase them by a tiny bit?

[Giles]

What if you'd gone up to the roof? Would your chances of survival still be nil, or would you increase them by a tiny bit?
Would you be in effect falling from the height of the top of the tallest building in Manhattan, and into the ruins of that large building which is now mostly on fire?

[Pushkin]

From MLS's link no. 1, using a piece of debris as some sort of makeshift parachute was tried out on Mythbusters (if that's any authority :) ). They seemed to show a fatal injury occured from only 2 floors up.

[spifflog]

I had heard some talk about someone surviving the WTC collapse by "riding" the skyscraper down as it collapsed. Is this true?

What would be a way to have the best chance of surviving a situation where one couldn't go down, but had to stay in a burning building?

deanc2000.

Keep the Fuck stick terrorists out of planes. That would be my plan.

[Bryan Ekers]

What if you'd gone up to the roof? Would your chances of survival still be nil, or would you increase them by a tiny bit?
Well, you'd have the additional chance of being rescued by helicopter, so... yes.

[psychloan]

Well, you'd have the additional chance of being rescued by helicopter, so... yes.

A fire warden told me that a helicopter rescue from the roof is Hollywood fantasy. If the fire is bad enough that the building will likely collapse, you must go down and out at all costs, according to him.

[Wallenstein]

There's also a serious logistical issue of where to store the 50,000 parachutes needed for all potential users of (in this case) the World Trade Centre.

Plus I was under the impression that buildings as large and tall as WTC created a v. strong updraft against their sides, to the extent that parachutes would quickly be tangled?

[Caffeine Cat]

Just imagine all that pregnant women, nice old ladies and kids getting killed or injured during evacuation caused by false alarm... And following multi-million dollar lawsuits.

[Don't Call Me Shirley]

A fire warden told me that a helicopter rescue from the roof is Hollywood fantasy. If the fire is bad enough that the building will likely collapse, you must go down and out at all costs, according to him.
Amazing that your fire warden friend never heard of the MGM Hotel Fire. (http://www.co.clark.nv.us/fire/mgm_doc.htm) This photo shows the helicopters picking people off the roof; over 300 people were rescued this way.

[Uncommon Sense]

I'd say it's impracticle for a number of reasons.
How many people would have the balls to jump unless the fire was eating at them?
Getting far enough away from the side of the building to allow a parachute to open would be another problem.
Accessing the outside of the building; Break windows (glass falls down onto rescue workers)? Have emergency doors open up to a 1000' drop-off? What would be the means of escape? Usually, buildings on fire don't have lots of windows blasted out like the WTC.

I've been thinking about this for a while and the only escape I could think of would be a roof-top rescue (helicopter), or some kind of rip-line system that would extend to the next building. It could entail some kind of cable and a series of hoists that could let you ride down/over to the next building. Some type of roof-top to roof-top means of travel. Still scarier than hell, but better than jumping.

[Cartooniverse]

There are quite a few aerial views (http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/attack/buildings.html) of the WTC site just after the attacks.

One cannot "ride the roof down" like riding one's favorite woody out at Point Break because of the facts already stated- and if one examines the photos cited, one cannot find the roofs. Know why ?

The fires that were fueled up and down the elevator shafts that caused the melting of the core support structures also did grevious damage to both roofs. The roofs were demolished on the way down. They didn't even break up upon impact- due to the immense volume of material being vertically compressed, the roofs were likely a few hundred feet up from ground level when they were completely obliterated.

Well. Completely obliterated is an emotional phrase. Let's say they broke up into parts that would have guaranteed that anybody trying to surf down to safety would have been crushed to death.

I had a pretty good first-hand view of what was left, as I was there on September 11th and September 12th, 2001. Trust me. There was no roof left from either Tower.

Cartooniverse

[Gozu Tashoya]

Almost ironically (given the context of this conversation), IIRC, Jackie Chan was scheduled to shoot something or other on 9/11/2001, but wasn't there due to some last-minute scheduling change/mix-up.

[Carnac the Magnificent!]

"Riding" a collapsing 110-story high rise down to the ground is no more survivable than Slim Pickens' final ride in "Dr. Strangelove." The enormous kinetic energy imparted in such a catastrophic collapse would obliterate everything inside, which is precisely what happened on 9/11--twice. Everyone inside rode those two buildings down as they collapsed. Nearly 3,000 perished, none survived, case closed.

Jumping out of a 90th story window with a parachute certainly isn't an enviable option, but the odds of survival must certainly be higher than zero. With 2,000 degree flames licking at my skin, even a three percent chance of survival sounds appealing.

Yes, a building jumper is totally inexperienced at parachuting and, yes, there's a fire below, but what alternative has one? If you can find (or create) a large opening in a window--I know, it isn't easy--you can leap and clear the building by perhaps 10 - 15 feet. IF you avoid the flames and IF the chute opens in the right direction and IF a half-dozen other nasty variables work out for you, you have a chance at survival. I like those odds. BTW, a worker in a high-rise need not store 5,000 chutes. Only one.

Last point: When an "expert" tells me that parachuting off a high rise is "extremely dangerous," how might he characterize staying inside that building when it is completely engulfed in flames? “Triple dangerous”? Silly.

[Walloon]

Everyone inside rode those two buildings down as they collapsed. Nearly 3,000 perished, none survived, case closed.Actually, four people who were inside elevators in the South Tower did survive the collapse, and eight people who were inside elevators in the North Tower survived the collapse. More from USA TODAY (http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002-09-04-elevator-usat_x.htm).

[Pushkin]

With regards parachutes, wouldn't there be a zone within which it would be too high to jump and survive but too low for the parachute to deploy. Perhaps if the fires were lower down this would be more of an issue.

[jimmmy]

With regard to roof rescue by Helicopter there were people IRL in the South Tower who died on 9-11 - even though they were in the only unobstructed top to bottom Stairway in the South Tower (STAIRWAY A) - because they went up instead of down looking for/expecting a Helicopter roof rescue.

I know (I think) I saw it in the 9-11 Report. But here it is in USA Today a more easily found cite. Link has a few other relevant tidbits too.

link (http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2001/12/19/usatcov-wtcsurvival.htm)
One stairway in the south tower remained open above the crash, but few used it to escape. Stairway A, one of three, was unobstructed from top to bottom. The jet crashed into the 78th through 84th floors of the south tower. A few people escaped from the 78th floor down these stairs. One person went down the stairs from the 81st floor, two from the 84th floor and one from the 91st. Others went up these stairs in search of a helicopter rescue that wasn't possible because of heavy smoke on the rooftop.

[msmith537]

I've been thinking about this for a while and the only escape I could think of would be a roof-top rescue (helicopter), or some kind of rip-line system that would extend to the next building. It could entail some kind of cable and a series of hoists that could let you ride down/over to the next building. Some type of roof-top to roof-top means of travel. Still scarier than hell, but better than jumping.


Who are you? Steve McQueen?


What would be a way to have the best chance of surviving a situation where one couldn't go down, but had to stay in a burning building?



Your best bet if you can't go down is to get as many floors between you and the fire and hope they put it out soon. Most modern skyscrapers are relatively safe in this regard and thus you don't see too many Towering Inferno scenarios.

[Equipoise]

Actually, four people who were inside elevators in the South Tower did survive the collapse, and eight people who were inside elevators in the North Tower survived the collapse. More from USA TODAY (http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002-09-04-elevator-usat_x.htm).
Thank you for that link. That was fascinating.

To add to the excellent debunking by MLS, this is essentially the same myth as the one that says you can survive a plummeting elevator by jumping up at the last minute. Both have the same flaw that there is stuff on top of you that is falling at the same rate and will flatten you.
Yes, but in the USA Today article, it says this:
Despite common fears, only once before had a passenger elevator had all its cables severed and fallen to the ground, according to Elevator World. That happened in 1945 when an elevator fell 78 stories after a military plane hit the Empire State Building. The woman inside lived.
So it would seem that plummeting elevators is a Hollywood myth.


There are quite a few aerial views of the WTC site just after the attacks. (Link removed) You might have warned us that that site is a wacked out 9/11 conspiracy site. Controlled demolition...right. I feel dirty just having been there.

[Bear_Nenno]

Even if the roof was made of sofa cushions and stayed intact for the entire fall, it's still falling at over 100mph. How would you survive the impact?

[slaphead]

So it would seem that plummeting elevators is a Hollywood myth.
I'm sure they occur occasionally through some freak set of circumstances, but generally speaking that problem was taken care of by Elisha Graves Otis.

[Cartooniverse]

(Link removed) You might have warned us that that site is a wacked out 9/11 conspiracy site. Controlled demolition...right. I feel dirty just having been there.

--hands bottle of Purell over--

Sorry about that- the photograph happens to be very accurate. The site is 100% nutcase, to which I do not ascribe, but the link was there for the photo.

[Bryan Ekers]

Even if the roof was made of sofa cushions and stayed intact for the entire fall, it's still falling at over 100mph. How would you survive the impact?
Just step off at the last second. :D

[Carnac the Magnificent!]

Actually, four people who were inside elevators in the South Tower did survive the collapse, and eight people who were inside elevators in the North Tower survived the collapse. More from USA TODAY (http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002-09-04-elevator-usat_x.htm).


Thanks for the link. Fascinating article, superb.

That said, none of the elevator survivors "rode the building down" during the buildings' collapse. They did, however, survive the uncontrolled descent of the elevators themselves.

I think.

[Annie-Xmas]

Well, you'd have the additional chance of being rescued by helicopter, so... yes.

One of the first things Mayor Giluini looked into was helicopter rescue. The smoke and fire made it impossible.

[Carnac the Magnificent!]

One of the first things Mayor Giluini looked into was helicopter rescue. The smoke and fire made it impossible.



Are you certain that both rooftops were obstructed by smoke at all times]/b]?

Was the fire really [b]that intense on both roofs before the final few minutes?

I wonder if debris fluttering around in the wind played a factor.

[Walloon]

Story from 2000 (http://www.nycop.com/Dec_00/World_Trade_Center_Bombing/body_world_trade_center_bombing.html) about using the roofs of the World Trade Center after the 1993 bombing. Note in the third photo how the roof of Tower #1 (the North Tower) had become what they call an "antenna farm".

Smoke blowing from the North Tower over the roof of the South Tower. (http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/fig1.gif)

[Caffeine Cat]

Are you certain that both rooftops were obstructed by smoke at all times]/b]?

Was the fire really [b]that intense on both roofs before the final few minutes?

I wonder if debris fluttering around in the wind played a factor.

The wind itself was major issue. Fire of that magnitude creates really strong updrafts. Flying helicopter in there would most probably make thing worse - by adding yet another aircraft crash to all this mess.

[Carnac the Magnificent!]

Smoke blowing from the North Tower over the roof of the South Tower. (http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/fig1.gif)



Christ, I had forgotten how bad it was. Unbelievable.

[Phrontist]

Am experienced BASE jumper would probably stand a non-zero (but possibly still rather low) chance of surviving a parachute jump from the window of a very tall building; for more or less anyone else, I expect the chances of it working are so close to zero that it isn't worth thinking about.

I in fact have a video of a guy jumping out of a room in the Palace Hotel in NYC.

[Phrontist]

Um, addendum: he uses a parachute, and lands safely.

[deanc2000]

I think that with training and practice, a parachute is a viable alternative as an escape route if other routes are closed.

Of course, I would also have on hand one or more secondary chutes to deploy if the primary one was or became dysfuntional.


Another option for people on skyscrapers would be hangliders. Have a supply of them on the roof for that rare terrorist event, or fire. Of course training would have to be done prior.


Deanc2000

[Duke of Rat]

Do you honestly think that having thousands of hang gliders on the roof of evey skyscraper is a plausible plan? Everybody is just going to launch and glide happily to safety? No tangled masses of plummeting secretaries, clear glide paths, nice grass landing zones. No, those who actually launched without dying (if you can even propose how to launch thousands of hang gliders from an area big enough to mabe launch a couple dozen) would smash into each other and other buildings before crashing into the street below. Great plan. Same with the parachutes.

I have a strong suspicion that this is some sort of whoosh, but I'm bored and it's Friday.

[Cartooniverse]

Christ, I had forgotten how bad it was. Unbelievable.

Yes it was. I was standing on Houston Street before I went down in an ambulance and went to work there, and I could see little dots dropping. That was people jumping. -shudder-

Also, that particular frame that Walloon linked happens to be fairly high on the horrific scale, as it was taken in the split-second that the second plane plowed into the second tower. Note the huge gouts of burning Jet-A fuel and the white particulate dots being blown out. That would be the window framing from the floors that were blown up as the jet exploded.

Many awful sad sickening images from that day, but frames of the real impact are near the top of my personal list. Shots of people jumping top my list, without a doubt.

It is not that the rotor wash would add to the mess and maybe make a helicopter crash. I clearly remember walking across the plaza between the two towers. There was some cool sculpture in it. The vortex was amazing- updrafts mixing with side-drafts. A sheet of paper was lifted and moved up and around as I watched. It was actually very beautiful.

At the other end of the measure, I stood several times in Windows On The World. I'd stand at the window, close one eye and sight to New Jersey, picking an object to look at. In this manner, I could judge the amount of sway that the tower was doing at the moment. One day, the wind was so bad they had the Observation Deck closed. I closed one eye and sighted out and must admit, it was completely frightening to think about just how MUCH I was swaying side to side. Or rather, the building was.

The updrafts were legion. A chopper would have been flipped over and dropped down into the plaza. Or onto Vesey or Chambers, or the West Side Highway.

Before anyone links to the MGM Grand again as proof that I'm wrong here, think about the footprint of the MGM Grand and those buildings around it, and equally importantly the prevailing wind patterns day to day in Vegas ( especially at the time of that fire ) opposed to those in NYC on September 11th.

Of course helicopters rescued from the roof. The air was like glass and there was no appreciable updrafts or vortices.

[Trunk]

To add to the excellent debunking by MLS, this is essentially the same myth as the one that says you can survive a plummeting elevator by jumping up at the last minute. Both have the same flaw that there is stuff on top of you that is falling at the same rate and will flatten you.
I think the main flaw is that if you're plummeting at 120 mph, jumping "up" at the instant before impact would decrease your speed relative to the ground to about 115mph.