Hey there Macaca, welcome to America (George Allen, our next President)

[Apos]

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/blog/2006/08/political_video_of_the_day_ii_3.html

Oh George Allen, we hardly new ye.

Macaca, as it turns out, happens to be an obscure racial slur that somehow popped into the head of this guy who's had several problems with race in the past. In this video, it's being directed at an Indian kid who is doing "tracking" for Allen's current Senate opponent, James Webb.

It seems like no matter how you spin this, Allen comes off looking terrible. Even if you completely buy the explanation that he was trying to say that the kid had a mohawk (which he sort of did), the whole "welcome to america, welcome to the real virginia" bit just doesn't work when you are talking to a NATIVE VIRGINIAN. Especially when you yourself are NOT a native Virginian. It's the same sort of red-state superiority complex that's just become vile, and is vile especially when Allen is singling out a 20 year old minority Democrat in a crowd of white heavily partisan Republicans. That's it at best. At worst, it's him seeing a minority Democrat and basically implying that he and his are foriegners, unamerican, etc.

But unfortunately, the macaca thing isn't so easy to write off. Allen might be okay with the "obscurity" of the term if and only if it didn't work against him. You see, George Allen, who just happens to be half French Tunisian and speaks French fluently, just so happens to be one of the very few people who WOULD be likely to know the term macaca, given that it is obscurely used in that culture as a racial slur, and its hard to imagine him NOT having heard it growing up (especially given his questionable past on race issues) It's also a very common code term amongst white supremacists, but we'll give George the benefit of the doubt that THIS is not where it slipped out of his brain from.

Of course, Virginia's Republican blogosphere is frantically trying to find the right angle on this: Webb is desperate, it's just the libruls trying to put the white Southern man down as racist, yadda yadda yadda. My favorite is the claim that Allen was BAITED into it: I suppose the color of the kid's skin was so outrageous that it tricked Allen into a Freudian slip.

Unfortunately, for a guy who was once the front-runner for the Republican nod for President, this does not bode well for Allen. From a fumbling response to a too slow non-apology, he's proving even to other Republicans that he's something of a lightweight.

So, today, I pit George Allen. Right or wrong, racist or just really really really unlucky: you DOOFUS.

[kaylasdad99]

Poor bastard never should have given up coaching the Rams...

[Marley23]

But unfortunately, the macaca thing isn't so easy to write off. Allen might be okay with the "obscurity" of the term if and only if it didn't work against him. You see, George Allen, who just happens to be half French Tunisian and speaks French fluently, just so happens to be one of the very few people who WOULD be likely to know the term macaca, given that it is obscurely used in that culture as a racial slur, and its hard to imagine him NOT having heard it growing up (especially given his questionable past on race issues) It's also a very common code term amongst white supremacists, but we'll give George the benefit of the doubt that THIS is not where it slipped out of his brain from.
I have no way of knowing if this is true, but even if you're trying too hard, on some level I'm impressed. And that said, I have no idea if you're trying too hard. Allen's other choice of words ("welcome to America" in particular) are so dumb that it's hard to rule it out.

[Apos]

I'm not the person that figured that out, to be fair to me. But I do think it is an awful big coincidence that he pulled this totally random word that meant nothing to anyone there out of his head, and it just so happened to be a nasty racial slur that's extremely particular to his upbringing.

The other problem is that the most plausible excuse: that this kid had a hairstyle that his campaign thought looked like a mohawk, is just too laughable to stand up to media scrutiny. A word with two sylables "MoH Hawk" doesn't just magically morph into a three sylable word "MaH KaH KaH" without explanation.

[Little Nemo]

Yes, a slip like this could really cost Conservative Republicans a lot of votes in the Black community.

[Apos]

Actually, the Indian community is more relevant here, because they are generally more economically and socially conservative and have less connection to the traditional Democratic alliances.

But while the black community certainly isn't a major voting bloc for Republicans, Republicans do need to peel enough of them away or keep enough of them from the polls to avoid uran blowouts, especially in Virginia.

[Enter the Flagon]

Not to sound too cynical, but many a white man has been elected to office after a bit of race-bating, subtle or otherwise.

[Apos]

That's definately too cynical. The Virginia conservative blogosphere is, I have to admit, much more nuanced than I had originally stated. While the big guns are still trying to spin this as all Webb's fault and "just another sign that liberals are evil and we should kick their teeth in" (tm), others have criticized Allen pretty harshly. This is really quite interesting. I wonder if Bricker has any insight on this, given that he is apparently sometimes an active mover and shaker in Virginian politics when it comes to money and Republican candidates.

[BobLibDem]

He's a dolt all right, but I'd rather have a guy with admitted prejudices than the ones that preach equality but then turn around and give speeches at Bob Jones University.

[RTA]

My first thought was, it's a Republican crowd; why would he call the guy a macaque, when he could have just called him a monkey? Was he showing off his fancy book-learnin'?

Allen's brother Bruce, aka the Gen. Manager of your mighty mighty Tampa Bay Buccaneers, is also a right wing idiot and a Limbaughfascist tool.

[Count Blucher]

I wonder if Bricker has any insight on this, given that he is apparently sometimes an active mover and shaker in Virginian politics when it comes to money and Republican candidates.


* Bricker pulls a 10-foot pole out of his golf bag, shakes his head at it, and puts it back. Pulls a 50-foot pole out, says "Naaaaah!", puts it back and then walks off the golf course. *

[Loopydude]

Saw this on Jon Stewart. Amazing.

Well, Hell, not only is he a dirtbag, he's a stupid dirtbag. Sometimes American voters like continuity, so this is a big plus.

[Apos]

He's a dolt all right, but I'd rather have a guy with admitted prejudices than the ones that preach equality but then turn around and give speeches at Bob Jones University.

One of George's first campaign stops on his way to President was with first Robertson (who just a few days earlier had declared that Muslims should not be allowed in public office or something likwe that in his latest litany of assinine statements) and then the Conservative leadership council organization, which includes, surprise surprise, the president of Bob Jones U. Whether he'll speak there like Republican primary candidates generally are invited to do, remains up for grabs.

I'm guessing that it would probably be in his best interests at this point to turn them down. I think they'd understand.

[Captain Lance Murdoch]

I'm not sure this will hurt Allen that much, because;

This incident hasn't gotten too much publicity yet. In fact, I don't think most voters have even heard of Allen at this point. The election is still a long ways off so the whole thing can blow over well before that.

The term "macaca" does not have the emotional connectedness some other terms do. I had never heard the term ever before this.

The offended people would be unlikely to vote Republican anyway. This is particularly true in the primaries. In fact, some voters might like him more for this. It could help him a little in the South Carolina Primary (remember John McCain's black kids) which I figure will be a must-win for him in 2008.

If George Bush can embrace the overtly racist BJU during the Presidential campaign and still win the Catholic vote I think Allen could weather this storm. Besides, his main conservative rival Bill Frist is a kitty killer. I think that would resonate with voters a lot more than this.

[Apos]

Not much publicity? It's been in the Post for days now. It's been all over the national media: cable news, Daily Show, etc. Virtually every paper in Virginia has written about it.

The term "macaca" does not have the emotional connectedness some other terms do. I had never heard the term ever before this.

I think you're wrong. As the daily show clip says "I don't know what it means, but it sure SOUNDS racist." The fact that it is a codeword in the whitepower movement doesn't come off too good. The fact that its an obscure term hurts Allen, because it draws attention to the fact that he has exactly the rare sort of background that WOULD know the term. And so on.

The offended people would be unlikely to vote Republican anyway. This is particularly true in the primaries. In fact, some voters might like him more for this. It could help him a little in the South Carolina Primary (remember John McCain's black kids) which I figure will be a must-win for him in 2008.

That might have been true a decade ago, but it's no longer the case.

[Acsenray]

It seems to me the real question is how badly does this hurt him in his current re-election campaign. Because, face it, if he loses to Webb in 2006, there is no 2008 for Allen.

[Apos]

Webb, despite a seemingly helpful profile as a Democratized Republican, has so far just not demonstrated the ability to really raise enough funds to compete, especially with a well known incumbent. Allen dwarfs Webb's campaign funds, and when you have one of the most expensive media markets in the country to run ads on, that really, really matters. All this free media negatives may hurt Allen, but that doesn't make people necessarily go out and vote for Webb. If he can't raise enough money to get people to go out and vote for him, then it doesn't matter if Allen calls Condi a gorilla: the partisan math just isn't there for a Webb victory.

[saoirse]

The offended people would be unlikely to vote Republican anyway. This is particularly true in the primaries. In fact, some voters might like him more for this. It could help him a little in the South Carolina Primary (remember John McCain's black kids) which I figure will be a must-win for him in 2008.

Insiders in the Republican party admitted, to writers for Newsweek and Slate, that they have been reaching out to blacks not to get black votes, but to get votes from white suburban moderates, who need to feel comfortable that they're not voting for a racist.

[RTA]

www.huffingtonpost.com/2006/08/16/gop-senator-george-allen_n_27382.html

Glowing character witness from Allen's sister Jennifer.

[magellan01]

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/blog/2006/08/political_video_of_the_day_ii_3.html

Macaca, as it turns out, happens to be an obscure racial slur that somehow popped into the head of this guy who's had several problems with race in the past. In this video, it's being directed at an Indian kid who is doing "tracking" for Allen's current Senate opponent, James Webb.

I've never heard this term before. And he says it three times I think (two for sure)with the intonation that it was the guy's name or something. But according to the link you provided, that's not his name. So, I guess it is, as you say, a slur of some kind. But there might be more to this, just based on watching the video you linked to.

Then there is this, which brings your bias to the fore, not to mention questions your credibility:

... "welcome to america, welcome to the real virginia" bit just doesn't work when you are talking to a NATIVE VIRGINIAN. Especially when you yourself are NOT a native Virginian. It's the same sort of red-state superiority complex that's just become vile, and is vile especially when Allen is singling out a 20 year old minority Democrat in a crowd of white heavily partisan Republicans. That's it at best. At worst, it's him seeing a minority Democrat and basically implying that he and his are foriegners, unamerican, etc.

Uh, did you watch the video you linked to? Here's what he actually said. I bolded the parts that are pertinent to your claim. There were only a few words that I couldn't make out, but I serioulsy doubt they would change the meaning. I suggest you watch the video and judge for yourself.

My friends we're going to run this campaign on positive, constructive ideas, and it's important that we motivate and inspire people for something. This fellow here, over here, with the yellow shirt, Macaca or whatever his name is, he's with our opponent. He's following us around everywhere, and it's just great. We're going to places all over Virginia, and he's having it on film and it's great to have you here, and you show it to your opponent because he's never been there and probably will never come, so it's good for him (unintelligible few words)...Macaca here in the real world . (Unintellible few words)...living inside the beltway or his opponent right now is with a bunch hollywood movie moguls. We care about fact, not fiction. So welcome, let's give a welcome to Macaca here. Welcome to America and the real world of Virginia. My friends, we are in the midst of a war on terror...(trails off)

Based on this, it is not as you have portrayed. He was using the young kid as a stand-in for his opponent, highlighting the fact (rhetoric, yes) that his opponent is not a man of the Virginian people. That he likes to ensconce himself inside the beltway and hobnob with Hollywood types. This should be obvious to all watching the video, even the honest partisan.

So, today, I pit George Allen. Right or wrong, racist or just really really really unlucky: you DOOFUS.

So wrong or right, you pit him. Okay...

[Captain Lance Murdoch]

Not much publicity? It's been in the Post for days now. It's been all over the national media: cable news, Daily Show, etc. Virtually every paper in Virginia has written about it.



It just hit CNN's web page in the last few minutes which is kind fo late for something that happened last week. Honestly, it hasn't been a big story up here as yet, but if it grows legs that could all change. If this does knock him out in the Virginia senate race then he is over and done as far as President goes. I have no idea how badly this has hurt him down there though.

If he goes out, does Frist become the new conservative fav for the White House? Brownback?

[John Mace]

When I heard this story yesterday, my first thought was: Isn't his mother from Tunisia-- he knows damn well what that term means!

I doubt that this will hurt him in any meaningful way, though. He's a very engaging politician with this uncanny ability to smile through any discussion he's in. We've seen pletny of politicians recover from these one-off slip ups, and I'd bet he can, too. Whether or not he's presidential material remains to be seen. He's got some pretty big backers in the Republican party, but I think McCain beats him any way you look at it.

[Apos]

I've never heard this term before. And he says it three times I think (two for sure)with the intonation that it was the guy's name or something.

No, the intonation is that he doesn't know what the kids' name is or can't remember, and so he comes up with something to stand in for it.

Based on this, it is not as you have portrayed. He was using the young kid as a stand-in for his opponent, highlighting the fact (rhetoric, yes) that his opponent is not a man of the Virginian people. That he likes to ensconce himself inside the beltway and hobnob with Hollywood types. This should be obvious to all watching the video, even the honest partisan.

The problem is, he still directs his comments at the kid, not directly at Webb. Suffice to say that his rhetoric isn't much better at Webb either: Webb has actual roots in "outside the beltway" Virginia in a way George Allen does not. He also ends up implying that half of NOVA (the predominant;y minority half) is not really part of Virginia, which I'm sure plays really really well up there.

Furthermore, he VERY clearly says "Let's give a welcome to macaca, here. Welcome to America and the real world of Virginia." and this is very clearly directed at "macaca here," not Webb. So, nice try, but no dice.

So wrong or right, you pit him. Okay...

As I said, I think the evidence is pretty clear that he pulled up this actual word, most likely by accident. But regardless of that, he deserves a pitting for the scambling, bumbling way in which this all came down. He singled opposition staff, which is generally a bad idea unless you are going to have a really light touch, and worse, it was the one minority in a crowd of Republicans, making his "welcome to america" line relaly not quite so intelligent no matter how he meant it. He then made things even worse by offerring several different interpretations of how the word came out. And his staffhas just been instructed to claim not to have seen the video if asked about it by voters: which is pretty silly in itself. In short, the dude is an oaf.

What's truly amusing is that half of the Republicans who are whining about how unfair this is will in just a year from now be working for his Republican primary opponents... and you can bet they will bring this up early and often against him.

Oh, and he now has a THIRD explanation for the use of the word:

http://hotlineblog.nationaljournal.com/archives/2006/08/a_new_explanant_2.html
According to two Republicans who heard the word used, "macaca" was a mash-up of "Mohawk," referring to Sidarth's distinctive hair, and "caca," Spanish slang for excrement, or "shit."

Said one Republican close to the campaign: "In other words, he was a shit-head, an annoyance."

Ah, so he's just calling him a shithead! What a great excuse! Too bad it took four or more days to focus group that excuse together.

[Little Nemo]

Within a day or two, expect to hear that Allen mistakenly believed the man's name was Mark and he was pronouncing it with an authentic traditional Virginian accent.

[magellan01]

The problem is, he still directs his comments at the kid, not directly at Webb. Suffice to say that his rhetoric isn't much better at Webb either: Webb has actual roots in "outside the beltway" Virginia in a way George Allen does not. He also ends up implying that half of NOVA (the predominant;y minority half) is not really part of Virginia, which I'm sure plays really really well up there.

This is the imlpication you draw. I doubt many others will.

Furthermore, he VERY clearly says "Let's give a welcome to macaca, here. Welcome to America and the real world of Virginia." and this is very clearly directed at "macaca here," not Webb. So, nice try, but no dice.

Yeah, dice. You're taking it out of context. And this is after I typed it up for you. Read what comes before it and it appears clear that he means "Let's give a welcome to macaca, here. [As a representative of my opponent, let me say] Welcome to America and the real world of Virginia."

As I said, I think the evidence is pretty clear that he pulled up this actual word, most likely by accident. But regardless of that, he deserves a pitting for the scambling, bumbling way in which this all came down. He singled opposition staff, which is generally a bad idea unless you are going to have a really light touch,...

Actually, I thought it was rather genius. He announced to his admiring crowd that that had an enemy in their midsts. I think that kid's job just got a lot more uncomfortable. This political judo move also tells his opponent: if you keep sending these minions over here following me around I'm going to use that as an opportunity to have a one-way debate and slam you for something.

...and worse, it was the one minority in a crowd of Republicans,...

And you know this how? The video shows three, maybe four people, but you can hear many more.

...making his "welcome to america" line relaly not quite so intelligent no matter how he meant it. He then made things even worse by offerring several different interpretations of how the word came out.

Yes, I would like to hear from him how he came up with "Macaca". Because I don't think it was accidental, as he used it three times. If it is the slur you reference, I'll join you in pitting him for that. If that was, in fact, that slur, he's got some balls. To say it three times, when he knows it's being taped And to look right at the guy and smile and welcome him. Wow.

My guess is that "Macaca" was indeed an insulting term that his staffers had been referring to him by. Maybe Allen heard that term used a few times, as if it were the guys name, and made an innocent gaffe. Pure conjecture on my part, of course. But I just can't see how a successful politician would use what he knew to be such an insult while looking right at a camera held by his opponent's camp.

What's truly amusing is that half of the Republicans who are whining about how unfair this is will in just a year from now be working for his Republican primary opponents... and you can bet they will bring this up early and often against him.

Unfortunately, I fear you may be correct about this.

[John Mace]

My guess is that "Macaca" was indeed an insulting term that his staffers had been referring to him by. Maybe Allen heard that term used a few times, as if it were the guys name, and made an innocent gaffe. Pure conjecture on my part, of course. But I just can't see how a successful politician would use what he knew to be such an insult while looking right at a camera held by his opponent's camp.
Come on. Why would his staffers use that term? It's not part of the English language. It is, however, commonly used in North African Francophones, which is what Allen's mother is. That's the far simpler explanation.

And politicians slip up like this more than you'd expect. Allen is usually a lot smoother than this, but he fucked up this time. There just isn't a more reasonable or plausible explanation.

[Fred D]

Actually, I thought it was rather genius.

Genius? Even if you think that singling out opposition in a big crowd is a neat rhetorical trick, in this particular instance it's a pretty obvious political gaffe -- whether you think Allen is in the right or wrong, it isn't smart wording. Part of being a good politician is avoiding word choices that can be misinterpreted even if when technically broken down they are inoffensive.

[rjung]

My first thought was, it's a Republican crowd; why would he call the guy a macaque, when he could have just called him a monkey?
Because calling him a "monkey" would be unambiguously racist. Gotta maintain that plausible deniability...

[eleanorigby]

But, regardless of the racial slur (and I do believe it was one)...it is incredibly rude to assume, as this stellar representative of GOP values did, that this dark skinned young man was NOT an American citizen. What is this "welcome to America" crap? How dare he? (oh, yeah-he dares because he's an entitled rich Southern white boy--I keep forgetting these things).

He deserves pitting for that welcome comment alone, never mind the rest of his spewing.

[Dewey Finn]

Ah, so he's just calling him a shithead! What a great excuse! Too bad it took four or more days to focus group that excuse together.
Regarding the idea that "macaca" was a corruption of "mohawk," I found some sites that indicated that S.R. Sidarth's hair is actually a mullet, and I can't see how one can confuse a mohawk and a mullet. (When did you last see a mohawk anyhow?) And if you accept his explanation that he was calling him "macaca" as a combination of "mohawk" and "caca," is "shithead" supposed to be an improvement over a racial slur?

[Fred D]

I think it's pretty clear contextually that the "Welcome to America" statement refers to the supposed Hollywood elite status of Allen's opponent and his supporters. Would it be less offensive if he had said "Welcome to the real America"?

[Hentor the Barbarian]

Regarding the idea that "macaca" was a corruption of "mohawk," I found some sites that indicated that S.R. Sidarth's hair is actually a mullet, and I can't see how one can confuse a mohawk and a mullet. (When did you last see a mohawk anyhow?) And if you accept his explanation that he was calling him "macaca" as a combination of "mohawk" and "caca," is "shithead" supposed to be an improvement over a racial slur?It doesn't really look like a mullet to me. Trust me, I live in Pittsburgh. I know a mullet when I see one!

http://atrios.blogspot.com/2006_08_13_atrios_archive.html#115558801832716030

[John Mace]

It doesn't really look like a mullet to me. Trust me, I live in Pittsburgh. I know a mullet when I see one!

http://atrios.blogspot.com/2006_08_13_atrios_archive.html#115558801832716030
It looked like a cross between a mullet and mohawk (if you can imagine that!) in the news story I saw last night. Not that I'm buying this explanation for the use of that word, mind you.

[Loopydude]

A mohullet? A mullohawk?

[Apos]

Yeah, dice. You're taking it out of context. And this is after I typed it up for you.

Your interpretation is not only strained, but you had to insert parantheticals to even make it pass a laugh test. Look, it's even clearer in the video, but it's plain on the transcript: he may ultimately want his bil directed at Webb, but in the immediate here and now he turns to and addresses "macaca here." There isn't any denying that.

Actually, I thought it was rather genius. He announced to his admiring crowd that that had an enemy in their midsts. I think that kid's job just got a lot more uncomfortable.

Right... which unless the kid is being disruptive (he wasn't) is a really dick thing to do, even if he's the volunteer or your opponent. It's odd that you would argue the point given that Allen has apologized for this (and, really, only this). These trackers are used by all campaigns. Allen had trackers following Webb: TWO of them. And one actually DID start harrasing Webb... and ultimately got an arrest warrant for his trouble when he wouldn't leave private property.

And you know this how? The video shows three, maybe four people, but you can hear many more.

So you can tell the color of people's skin by hearing them? Even Allen's supporters described this as an all white or nearly all white crowd. Suffice to say, the kid stood out in more ways than one and calling him out was pretty darn dunderheaded.

[Loopydude]

I'm not cutting Allen any slack here, but it seems difficult to believe he was truly aware of the...eh...simian implications of what he was saying. You figure he just overheard his mother using that word for darkies when he was a kid, and mistook it for a tacky term of affection, like "muchacho" or something? It'd still be an amazingly stupid to thing to say in public even under those circumstances, but effectively calling the guy "monkey boy" at a rally pushes the stupid to an almost surreal level. I have to suspect he was unaware of just how big of a jackass he was making of himself.

[RTFirefly]

oh, yeah-he dares because he's an entitled rich Southern white boy--I keep forgetting these things He doesn't even have that excuse. He's an entitled rich Southern California white boy. He didn't grow up in the South; he didn't pick up racist attitudes through the culture of his upbringing. He's adopted those attitudes; he's chosen them.

Nonetheless, he's been a Virginian for practically all of his adult life, long enough to know the difference between a Mohawk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/), the punk-era hairstyle that hasn't been popular much of anywhere in a couple of decades, and a mullet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mullet_%28haircut%29), the hairstyle that Webb cameraman S.R. Sidarth was wearing, which has been and continues to be inexplicably quite popular among young people in Virginia. So the whole 'Mohawk' excuse doesn't fly, AFAIAC.

[John Mace]

I'm not cutting Allen any slack here, but it seems difficult to believe he was truly aware of the...eh...simian implications of what he was saying. You figure he just overheard his mother using that word for darkies when he was a kid, and mistook it for a tacky term of affection, like "muchacho" or something?
That's possible. He's supposedly fluent in French (like Kerry! :eek: ), and perhaps he doesn't know that a macaque is a type of monkey. Maybe, but I'm still doubtful.

[Apos]

It's pretty bad spin, in retrospect, for Allen to say that he meant nothing racially derogatory by the "nickname I made up" for the kid... and then later have your staffers claim that the meaning of the term is "shithead." Sure, it's not _racially_ derogatory, but you went on national TV to say that you weren't trying to insult him and you're sorry if that anyone got that impression... and THEN it comes out that the term supposedly means "shithead?" That looks even more dunderheaded than the original slipup.

[Fred D]

I'm not cutting Allen any slack here, but it seems difficult to believe he was truly aware of the...eh...simian implications of what he was saying. You figure he just overheard his mother using that word for darkies when he was a kid, and mistook it for a tacky term of affection, like "muchacho" or something? It'd still be an amazingly stupid to thing to say in public even under those circumstances, but effectively calling the guy "monkey boy" at a rally pushes the stupid to an almost surreal level. I have to suspect he was unaware of just how big of a jackass he was making of himself.

My mother called me and my brothers Tojos, a slur against the Japanese used mostly during WWII, when we were misbehaving as children and teenagers until I informed her of the term's racist origins (Sample: "You kids are acting like a bunch of tojos!"). She thought that it meant "misbehaving or rambunctious kids" because that was the way her own mother had used the term when she was growing up.

It is entirely possible that Allen grew up in a French-Tunisian household in which "Macaca" was used to chide people regardless of their race, and as an adult was simply unaware of the racist origins of the term -- it's certainly obscure enough.

Although if this was the case I'd expect that Allen would explain it as such, rather than calling "macaca" a cross between a mohawk and how a three year old says "shit".

[anu-la1979]

Apparently it's a French slur used against North Africans. So if he's so fluent it's likely he was aware of the origins of the term. What a twat.

[magellan01]

Come on. Why would his staffers use that term? It's not part of the English language. It is, however, commonly used in North African Francophones, which is what Allen's mother is. That's the far simpler explanation.

I guess you're right about that.

And politicians slip up like this more than you'd expect. Allen is usually a lot smoother than this, but he fucked up this time. There just isn't a more reasonable or plausible explanation.

But do you really believe that he slipped up three times uttering a slur when he knew that he was being filmed by his opponents camp? He is smooth. He is no idiot. That's the part that makes no sense to me. He's not that dumb. I don't even thiink Cynthia McKinney would do something so dumb. And that's saying something.

[magellan01]

Genius? Even if you think that singling out opposition in a big crowd is a neat rhetorical trick, in this particular instance it's a pretty obvious political gaffe -- whether you think Allen is in the right or wrong, it isn't smart wording. Part of being a good politician is avoiding word choices that can be misinterpreted even if when technically broken down they are inoffensive.

I meant genius in a Bloefeldian sense. And it does appear dumb. So dumb that I'd love to know the real explanation, though I doubt we ever will.

[magellan01]

Your interpretation is not only strained, but you had to insert parantheticals to even make it pass a laugh test. Look, it's even clearer in the video, but it's plain on the transcript: he may ultimately want his bil directed at Webb, but in the immediate here and now he turns to and addresses "macaca here." There isn't any denying that.

You are ignoring what preceded it. Context matters. Even when you don't like the guy.

Right... which unless the kid is being disruptive (he wasn't) is a really dick thing to do, even if he's the volunteer or your opponent. It's odd that you would argue the point given that Allen has apologized for this (and, really, only this). These trackers are used by all campaigns. Allen had trackers following Webb: TWO of them. And one actually DID start harrasing Webb... and ultimately got an arrest warrant for his trouble when he wouldn't leave private property.

I am not implying this kid did anything wrong. I just watched a little interview with hi mon the web and he seems like a great kid. I must admit that all these "explanations" I've been hearing after the fact do strain the brain.

So you can tell the color of people's skin by hearing them? Even Allen's supporters described this as an all white or nearly all white crowd. Suffice to say, the kid stood out in more ways than one and calling him out was pretty darn dunderheaded.

Oh no, no, no you don't. You made a claim that he was the only minority in the crowd. I simply asked how you could know that from the link yoiu had supplied. The video showed only three or four people in the crowd. The burden falls to you, my friend.

[Fred D]

I meant genius in a Bloefeldian sense.

I still think he should have taken more care to avoid the SPECTRE of racism.

[magellan01]

A mohullet? A mullohawk?

How about, a mistake. Did you see it? It is pretty bad.

[magellan01]

:D Nice. :D I still think he should have taken more care to avoid the SPECTRE of racism.

[eleanorigby]

I think it's pretty clear contextually that the "Welcome to America" statement refers to the supposed Hollywood elite status of Allen's opponent and his supporters. Would it be less offensive if he had said "Welcome to the real America"?

huh? This makes no sense to me. He is speaking to a young man with a video camera--is every young man with a camera now assumed to be one of the Hollywood elite? He knows this guy is from his opponent's campaign. How would it be less offensive if he said "welcome to the real America"? That would be even more offensive--why is he assuming that the kid-Sidharth-is NOT an American at all?

Have you ever heard anyone say this to another white person during a campaign? It's weird as hell that he would say that to Sidharth.


RT -sorry, didn't study up on Allen prior to posting. Either way, it's obvious that what his mother taught him in manners is sorely lacking, and that's being nice about it all. This guy sounds like a complete prick. If that book is truly by his sister and is true--he has anger management problems, big time as well. Just what we need in government--another macho fuck with a chip on his shoulder....

[Apos]

You are ignoring what preceded it. Context matters. Even when you don't like the guy.

I'm not ignoring anything. He directly addressed Mr. "Macaca" not Webb. What preceeding it serves to establish that Allen believed that he was scoring points on Webb by singling out his staffer. It DOESN'T establish that Allen was not directing his comments in an immediate sense, at that staffer. You're trying to split the hairs of already split hairs on a toupee that is on someone else's head.

Oh no, no, no you don't. You made a claim that he was the only minority in the crowd. I simply asked how you could know that from the link yoiu had supplied. The video showed only three or four people in the crowd. The burden falls to you, my friend.

I know because that's what the kid said: he was the only minority in the crowd. So far, no Allen apologist has argued this point: some have even become defensive about it "well, so what!!!?"

[Fred D]

eleanor: Perhaps I overstated the clarity of the context of the statement, as I believe it to be.

To address your question, the phrase "real America" or "real Americans" is a common rhetorical device used by politicians to denote the difference between the values and beliefs held by an opponent or represented in the biased media, and those values and beliefs that are actually held by "real Americans". It's sort of the equivalent of "no true Scotsman." For example, a politician might say that the representations of tolerance for homosexuality that appear in films or television shows do not reflect the values of "real America," or that the Supreme Court's decisions regarding a woman's right to choose are not in keeping with the values of "real Americans." In fact, the rhetoric of "real American values" is a huge driving force in the Conservative fight against activist judges.

Some real-world examples: In a speech at a Chinese university, President Bush stated that "our movies and television shows often do not portray the values of the real America I know." Radio talk show host Glenn Beck wrote a book about traveling to "Real America" as contrasted with the America shown in films and on TV. Jimmy Carter wrote an op-ed piece last November for the LA Times about the difference between the current administrations policies and the values of "real America," fittingly titled "This isn't the real America." None of these examples were intended to single out ethnic Americans as being outside of the real America.

In my humble opinion, Allen is merely the latest in a long line of politicians to use this device. It is unfortunate (for him!) that he chose to use it in the same sentence as a racial slur, and that he chose to direct both it and the racial slur towards an ethnic minority. I choose to attribute his statements to the dangers inherent in going off-script -- to me, at least, it appears that he intended to show that his opponent (and therefor his opponent's volunteers) were unfamiliar with the values of real Americans but bungled the delivery quite badly (both at the time and with his subsequent lousy apologies and excuses).

[Fred D]

PS While I was googling for examples of politicians using the "real America" rhetorical device, I came across another confluence of Tunisia and Real America that occured exactly a year ago this month. (http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/related/87159.php)


Tunisian teens get to see 'real' America


Are these stories related? Is time, in fact, circular in nature? Pay me five american dollars to find out the horrifying truth!

[Marley23]

But do you really believe that he slipped up three times uttering a slur when he knew that he was being filmed by his opponents camp? He is smooth. He is no idiot. That's the part that makes no sense to me. He's not that dumb.
He was using a totally obscure slur, so I know I can believe it. I'm not saying I do believe it 100%, but it seems most likely.

[eleanorigby]

eleanor: I choose to attribute his statements to the dangers inherent in going off-script -- to me, at least, it appears that he intended to show that his opponent (and therefor his opponent's volunteers) were unfamiliar with the values of real Americans but bungled the delivery quite badly (both at the time and with his subsequent lousy apologies and excuses).

No offense, but IMO, you are charitable to the point of --well, you're too charitable.

If I were a minority and were told by a white man, in front of a group of whites, "welcome to America", I would be on the phone to Jesse Jackson or (insert appropriate lobbyist/spokesperson here). I don't see how it can be construed as anything but racist--especially given his Macaca remark.

I hope the Dems actually DO something with this--Swift Boat this guy's ass back under the rock he crawled out from. (how's that for a tortured sentence?)

[Raygun99]

Swift Boat this guy's ass back under the rock he crawled out from.

Why SwiftBoat him, when you can use true stuff? (am I swimming against the tide for this usage?)

[rjung]

Related: Allen's sister calls him a bully who enjoys making people suffer. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2006/08/16/gop-senator-george-allen_n_27382.html)

[Miller]

huh? This makes no sense to me. He is speaking to a young man with a video camera--is every young man with a camera now assumed to be one of the Hollywood elite? He knows this guy is from his opponent's campaign. How would it be less offensive if he said "welcome to the real America"? That would be even more offensive--why is he assuming that the kid-Sidharth-is NOT an American at all?

Have you ever heard anyone say this to another white person during a campaign?

I doubt I could find a cite, but I'm pretty sure that I have heard similar rhetoric used in just that context. "My opponent is a Hollywood leftist/beltway insider/rich plutocrat. He doesn't know what it's like out here in the REAL America!" That part, at least, I don't think is necessarily racist.

[Apos]

It is, I think, however increasingly vile: it's an extremely unthinking reflexive signal to start hating. It's also a superiority complex a mile wide born out of pure resentment and a sense of victimhood... from, bizarrely, the priveleged and powerful.

[eleanorigby]

Allen wasn't speaking to Web, then--he was "greeting" Sidarth. If he had been referring to his opponent, he should have said so, or made it clear that he was. As it stands, he is speaking to the guy holding the video camera--not that guy's boss/candidate.



I meant Swift Boat in the sense of just putting it everywhere in the media and never letting the story die. I do realize the SBers were making shit up out of whole cloth. And here we have someone who is apparently open about his feelings re minorities.

Sadly, there will be plenty who support him BECAUSE of his sentiments, not despite them.

[Apos]

I don't think there are many that would support him because of it. Even the white power assholes who use that term aren't generally Republican voters and partisan Republicans are far more to find reasons to excuse his behavior, explain it away, or focus on the evilness of Democrats. Virtually none of them are going to be happy that this happened.

[Apos]

Yet another amusing wrinkle along that "you're not from here!" line:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,208720,00.html
Webb said he was particularly irritated that, during the video clip, Allen insinuates that Webb has never been to towns in far southwest Virginia like Breaks, Va., where Allen gave his "Macaca" speech.

"I've spent a good part of my life going down there not because of politics but because I have family there," Webb said, noting that Sidarth had actually stayed the home of Webb family members the night before Allen's speech.

[eleanorigby]

Shall his new nickname be Wrench--as in Allen, as in tool?



Lame, sorry...

[Marley23]

Related: Allen's sister calls him a bully who enjoys making people suffer. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2006/08/16/gop-senator-george-allen_n_27382.html)
Heh, very Orin Scrivello:
Referring to George’s early career aspirations, Jennifer wrote "George hoped someday to become a dentist. George said he saw dentistry as a perfect profession - getting paid to make people suffer."

[Fred D]

No offense, but IMO, you are charitable to the point of --well, you're too charitable.

If I were a minority and were told by a white man, in front of a group of whites, "welcome to America", I would be on the phone to Jesse Jackson or (insert appropriate lobbyist/spokesperson here). I don't see how it can be construed as anything but racist--especially given his Macaca remark.

I hope the Dems actually DO something with this--Swift Boat this guy's ass back under the rock he crawled out from. (how's that for a tortured sentence?)

Charitable to the point of naivity? Probably. I suppose that it just makes more sense to me that a politician would botch a bit of off-script points-scoring than that the same politician inadvertantly revealed his racism.

There are two elements that lead to a charge of racism: (1) the use of a racial slur, and (2) the use of the phrase "welcome to America". While I certainly can't claim to know why exactly these phrases were used, I share the confusion of many posters as to why a politician would be so offensive intentionally. To combat this confusion, I envision a scenerio in which both statements are intended to be innocuous -- or if not innocuous, inoffensive.

As I posted on the first page, it is plausible that non-racist adults might use archaic racist slurs without knowing there true origins. Many adults are unaware of the racist origins of the phrase "gypped." If someone grew up in a home where their said "nigger-rig" to mean fixing something (us PC folks know it as jury-rig) and they were unaware that "nigger" is a racial slur, then I doubt they would see any problem with the regular use of the phrase. My mother called misbehaving children Tojos because her father did, and moreover, so did I (!) until I took an interest in WWII propaganda posters and realized where the word comes from. She stopped once she became aware of the true meaning of the word. It may be being too charitable to suggest that Allen's mother used "macaca" when he was growing up in the same way that my grandfather used "tojo" when my mom was little.

I have also theorized that Allen meant "welcome to the real America" rather than simply "welcome to America." I've posted numerous examples of the uses of this phrase on page one, and it would bore everyone but Miller for me to post them again. I believe this because of the wording found elsewhere in the speech, including in last half of the sentence that begins "Welcome to America" and ends "and welcome to the real world of Virginia." He also says "welcome to the real world" earlier in the speech, and in much the same sense that Miller noted he contrasts that real world to the world of "beltway Washington" and "Hollywood." It may be being too charitable to suggest that Allen forgot to add "the real" between "Welcome to" and "America."


I realize that this is a bit of a stretch, and requires more than a bit of suspension of disbelief. I want to make it clear that my motive is not to be an Allen apologist, but rather to make sense in my own mind of why Allen would have thought it appropriate to make these statements. As many posters have noted, his statements are shockingly rude. Politicians are not in the habit of saying things which are shockingly rude in front of microphones and video cameras that they know are turned on. I'm trying to bridge the disconnect with a theory that makes sense to me.

YMMV, of course, and if you're not willing to make the leaps that I'm making I certainly don't blame you. :)

[magellan01]

I'm not ignoring anything. He directly addressed Mr. "Macaca" not Webb. What preceeding it serves to establish that Allen believed that he was scoring points on Webb by singling out his staffer. It DOESN'T establish that Allen was not directing his comments in an immediate sense, at that staffer. You're trying to split the hairs of already split hairs on a toupee that is on someone else's head.

:rolleyes: I am not disputing what you keep asserting: that he directly and specifically addresed "Macaca". I'm saying that you simply digest the words that prededed it, the words that entered your ears or your eyes directly before the words you fixate on, his meaning is clear. And it's not what you wish it were. This part of your pittiing is all in

I know because that's what the kid said: he was the only minority in the crowd. So far, no Allen apologist has argued this point: some have even become defensive about it "well, so what!!!?"

There you go. I was going by the information you provided. If you had other info, all you had to do is provide that, as well. I never said your claim was wrong, I simply asked how you knew that to be the case, as one could not tell from the video.

[Little Nemo]

For those who feel Allen was actually calling Webb a macaca by proxy, I'll point out that he actually used the word more than once. And specifically said, "This fellow here over here with the yellow shirt, Macaca, or whatever his name is." Be careful trying to figure out an interpretation of that line that doesn't have Allen refering to Sidarth - you could strain something.

[Miller]

I just want to clarify that I was posting in response to eleanorigby asking if anyone had ever heard a white politician suggest that another white politician was not a "real American." It's not an automatically racist argument, but I don't think that's proof that Allen's use of it was not fueled by racist intent. Given the context, I think it's reasonable to infer a racist motivation behind that part of the speech, given that the rest of the speech used explicitly racist terminology.

Also, magellan, Apos, I don't think your arguments are mutually exclusive. Yes, he's talking about Webb. He's also directly addressing the staffer, and his comments seem clearly pointed at both of them. Given the slurs already used in the speech, the context seems pretty clearly to be, "My opponent and those who work for him are outsiders, as exemplified by this dusky-hued intruder in our very midsts."

[Miller]

For those who feel Allen was actually calling Webb a macaca by proxy, I'll point out that he actually used the word more than once. And specifically said, "This fellow here over here with the yellow shirt, Macaca, or whatever his name is." Be careful trying to figure out an interpretation of that line that doesn't have Allen refering to Sidarth - you could strain something.

No, the claim is that the "welcome to America" bit was addressed to Webb and not Sidarth. No one questions that Allen was calling Sidarth "Macaca."

[Argent Towers]

This whole situation is just one big tar baby.

[duality72]

I can't believe no one has hit on Allen's real reason for using 'macaca'. He's taking it back. Must be a Kevin Smith fan.

[eleanorigby]

Fred D --If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.....

And you should join the SDMB.





I pity the voters of "Virginny"--in more ways than one.

[Apos]

:rolleyes: I am not disputing what you keep asserting: that he directly and specifically addresed "Macaca". I'm saying that you simply digest the words that prededed it, the words that entered your ears or your eyes directly before the words you fixate on, his meaning is clear.

You're lamely desperate. The words before don't change anything at all. He clearly says, and in the video its even clearer: let's welcome macaca HERE to america. His comments are directed RIGHT AT the kid. Webb was not "there" even if Allen was ragging on Webb before. You are trying to make this seem ambiguous, but your argument is pathetic.

Also, magellan, Apos, I don't think your arguments are mutually exclusive. Yes, he's talking about Webb. He's also directly addressing the staffer, and his comments seem clearly pointed at both of them. Given the slurs already used in the speech, the context seems pretty clearly to be, "My opponent and those who work for him are outsiders, as exemplified by this dusky-hued intruder in our very midsts."

This is exactly the point I am making to magellan. No matter how in denial you are, you can't just pretend away the fact that he's most immediately directing his comments in that last sentance right at the staffer. He even addresses him by his "monkey" name as he asks the crowd to welcome him. Is this all in the service of ragging more on Webb? Of course. But that doesn't in the slightest change the fact of what he said and who he said it to.

[Apos]

Oh, and Miller, by "you" I meant megellan, not you. :)

[elelle]

I guess the most amazing thing here is that George Allen addressed his comments to a cameraman, who, assuming Allen had a teensy bit of temporal awareness, was documenting the entire bit, and not to Allen's advantage. That is incredibly stupid, point blank. I really can't imagine a politician being that dumb, to load the opponent's camera with vitriol, unless he thought that sort of talk plays well with voters. But, he's just handed some prime footage to his opponent, carte blanche.

Doesn't make sense to me, so I'll go with stupid, and no awareness of media savvy. Glad we get it over now, rather than have to see this guy's foolishness in a future big political race.

[Mellivora capensis]

Fred D <snip>

And you should join the SDMB.


<snip>




Seconded.

[Apos]

Oh good grief.

"I grew up in Alabama, and I understand, and I know this from my own experience, that blacks are not the greatest swimmers or may not even know to swim."

http://www.redstate.com/stories/elections/2006/tramm_hudson_destroys_himself

HOW COULD HE HAVE SAID IT WHEN HE KNEW THERE WAS A CAMERA THERE!!!?!??!!

Answer: because we often say stupid things without thinking about how they'll sound, even if we're practiced politicians.

[magellan01]

Oh good grief.

http://www.redstate.com/stories/elections/2006/tramm_hudson_destroys_himself

HOW COULD HE HAVE SAID IT WHEN HE KNEW THERE WAS A CAMERA THERE!!!?!??!!

Answer: because we often say stupid things without thinking about how they'll sound, even if we're practiced politicians.

Well, that proves everything. Wow, now I can see that you are 100% right! :rolleyes:

Look genius, if you are so insistent on painting Allen the way you want, knock yourself out. But your absurd insistence that you shouldn't take things in context just reveals you to be the blind partisan you evidently are and will convince only those who already think as you do. But please explain, how the FUCK could you possibly be arguing FOR taking things OUT of context?

[Apos]

But please explain, how the FUCK could you possibly be arguing FOR taking things OUT of context?

I'm not for it: why are you for lying into our faces about whether Allen was addressing "macaca here" and asking for a big round of applause to welcome him to america and the real virginia?

Face it, you're the partisan that scrambled for some angle on this for cover. You did your best, and fell on your face. Give it up now.

[magellan01]

I'm not for it: why are you for lying into our faces about whether Allen was addressing "macaca here" and asking for a big round of applause to welcome him to america and the real virginia?

Context, Macaca. Context.

Here is what he said again. This time I will point your myopic little eyes to just one little word. It must be there for the context-challenged, as it specifically links what preceeds it with what comes after it. The context would be there even witihout it, but having it there is like training wheels for those so kneejerk-partisan that they can't accurately decipher what they hear or read.

My friends we're going to run this campaign on positive, constructive ideas, and it's important that we motivate and inspire people for something. This fellow here, over here, with the yellow shirt, Macaca or whatever his name is, he's with our opponent. He's following us around everywhere, and it's just great. We're going to places all over Virginia, and he's having it on film and it's great to have you here, and you show it to your opponent because he's never been there and probably will never come, so it's good for him (unintelligible few words)...Macaca here in the real world . (Unintellible few words)...living inside the beltway or his opponent right now is with a bunch hollywood movie moguls. We care about fact, not fiction. So welcome, let's give a welcome to Macaca here. Welcome to America and the real world of Virginia. My friends, we are in the midst of a war on terror...(trails off)

And since you insist on mischaracterizing my point, I refer you to this by Miller:
No, the claim is that the "welcome to America" bit was addressed to Webb and not Sidarth. No one questions that Allen was calling Sidarth "Macaca."
(bolding mind)

Now if you still stick to your out-of context interpretation, at least it will be entertaining.

[Apos]

God that's pathetic. Sorry, but "so" doesn't change anything at all. Watch the video doofus.

"So let's give a welcome to Macaca here." How could anyone claim that this was directed at anyone other than "macaca here"? It could be argued that it was also being delivered to Webb, by proxy. But you can't get away from the fact that the kid is the one standing right there, and he is who he addresses the welcome to.

Did you know there are limits to how full of shit you can be? Please stop before it starts coming out your ears.

[Miller]

Sorry, magellan, but you're simply wrong. There's no way you can conclusively show that Allen was not directing his remarks directly at Sidharth. Even given the full context of what he was saying, it's clear that he was speaking specifically to and about the man he was addressing. That's the plain text of the comments. That he was also talking about Webb is a virtual certainty, but that's an extrapolation. It's not the irrefutable interpretation you insist on making it out to be.

I also don't see any place in this thread where Apos mischaracterizes your point in any way that would make the post of mine you quoted relevant.

[magellan01]

Sorry, magellan, but you're simply wrong. There's no way you can conclusively show that Allen was not directing his remarks directly at Sidharth. Even given the full context of what he was saying, it's clear that he was speaking specifically to and about the man he was addressing. That's the plain text of the comments. That he was also talking about Webb is a virtual certainty, but that's an extrapolation. It's not the irrefutable interpretation you insist on making it out to be.


What? You stated the same point that I have been trying to make repeatedly. That Allen was addresssing the "Macaca" insult to the kid. But, if you simply listen to the video, or read the transcript and take the whole thing in context, it is clear that he was talking about his oppenent's lack of spending time outside the beltwat and "in America.

Do you mistate your position earlier when you said:

No, the claim is that the "welcome to America" bit was addressed to Webb and not Sidarth. No one questions that Allen was calling Sidarth "Macaca." Did I misunderstand you?
Have you changed your position?

What you stated is precisely my position. And if you take his comments in context my interpretation (and yours?) is vastly more likely to be construed as a fair interpretation than "Hey, Macaca, you look like a foreigner, so I'd like to welcome you to America." Especially when he knew the kid worked for his opponent.

[Contrapuntal]

What you stated is precisely my position. And if you take his comments in context my interpretation (and yours?) is vastly more likely to be construed as a fair interpretation than "Hey, Macaca, you look like a foreigner, so I'd like to welcome you to America." Especially when he knew the kid worked for his opponent.Damn, magellan. He called a dark-skinned kid a little monkey. Or possibly a shithead. Three times. And then welcomed him to America. Even if he had come out and said "Oh, by the way, I wasn't talking to you so much as I was ragging Webb," would it make any diference? As soon as he said 'macaca' he lost any chance of claiming he was indulging in political rhetoric.

[magellan01]

Damn, magellan. He called a dark-skinned kid a little monkey. Or possibly a shithead. Three times. And then welcomed him to America. Even if he had come out and said "Oh, by the way, I wasn't talking to you so much as I was ragging Webb," would it make any diference? As soon as he said 'macaca' he lost any chance of claiming he was indulging in political rhetoric.

What is your point? The question is, do you think the talk of America and Virginia, etc. was directed at Webb and his penchant for staying in the beltway? Or do you think he was actually tellinig the kid "Hey you little brown foreigner, welcome to America? A kid, mind you, who Allen knew worked for the opposition's campaign.

[Apos]

But, if you simply listen to the video, or read the transcript and take the whole thing in context, it is clear that he was talking about his oppenent's lack of spending time outside the beltwat and "in America.

There is no whole thing in context. No one is disputing that he was slamming Webb and liberals and the usual other asinine Republo-cliche (made especially ironic by the fact that Allen is a posuer who lives inside the beltway himself, while Webb's family is actually from the area). But it's undeniable that he directed his comments to the kid as well. I think the "real Virginia" line seemed to be about the point his brain engaged and he realized what he had said and what it sounded like.

[rjung]

Related: Is "Macaca" a slur used by white supremacists? (http://jeffrey-feldman.typepad.com/frameshop/2006/08/frameshop_macac.html)

(Link contains offensive language and slimy racist thinking)

[Contrapuntal]

What is your point? The question is, do you think the talk of America and Virginia, etc. was directed at Webb and his penchant for staying in the beltway? Or do you think he was actually tellinig the kid "Hey you little brown foreigner, welcome to America? A kid, mind you, who Allen knew worked for the opposition's campaign.My point is that it does not matter. If he chooses to use racial slurs against this kid, while really using him as sort of a stalking horse to get at Webb, what the hell difference does it make? He's still a racist asshole. Why be so mealy-mouthed about it? Why not speak directly what is on his mind? Why not identify the kid as an employee of his opponent, and then direct his comments to Webb? Why hide his meaning if it is so benign?

Here's a thought experiment for you. What if you were to walk down the streets of East Saint Louis at midnight calling every third man you met 'nigger?' Do you think your explanation that you were really talking to someone else would cut you any slack?

If he has a problem with his opponent he needs to confront him, not pick on someone who cannot fight back. He's a pussy, and a mealy-mouthed one at that.

[magellan01]

My point is that it does not matter.

It doesn't matter as far as the "Macaca" comment. I still cannot phathom why/how an experienced politician—even if he was a complete out-and-out racist—would be dumb enough to—in public—with a video camera on him, of which he is fully aware, not only utter a racist insult, but do so three times. But he did it.

But that doesn't mean you get to reassign meaning to all the other words he said. It is clear that the Virginia/America/beltway jibes were directed at Webb and not to the kid. Or to the kid as a representative of the other camp.

[Miller]

What? You stated the same point that I have been trying to make repeatedly. That Allen was addresssing the "Macaca" insult to the kid. But, if you simply listen to the video, or read the transcript and take the whole thing in context, it is clear that he was talking about his oppenent's lack of spending time outside the beltwat and "in America.

I agree, that's one of the things he was saying. Language can have multiple meanings, and an equally valid (at the very least) interpretation is the one Apos has been pushing. Allen was almost certainly addressing Webb when he said that, but he was undeniably addressing Sidharth. It's possible that he meant that statement to apply only to Webb and not at all to Sidharth, but the context you've been arguing from is not the irrefutable evidence that you claim.

Do you mistate your position earlier when you said:

No, the claim is that the "welcome to America" bit was addressed to Webb and not Sidarth. No one questions that Allen was calling Sidarth "Macaca."

Did I misunderstand you?
Have you changed your position?

No, yes, and no.

I wasn't stating my position, I was explaining yours to someone who seemed to have become confused as to what the argument was about. Note that I said, "The claim," not "My claim."

Did you read my post directly before that one? I think I made my position on the subject clear in that post.

What you stated is precisely my position. And if you take his comments in context my interpretation (and yours?) is vastly more likely to be construed as a fair interpretation than "Hey, Macaca, you look like a foreigner, so I'd like to welcome you to America." Especially when he knew the kid worked for his opponent.

Taken in context, Apos interpretation is every bit as reasonable as your own. Your interpretation, while valid, requires a bit more extrapolation and assumption of motives than Apos*. His words were clearly directed at Sidharth. It takes an intuitive leap (although, again, not an unreasonable one) to assume that he was including Webb in those remarks in addition to Sidharth. The plain text reading is the one Apos presents: "You, Mr. Macaca, are an outsider who is unfamiliar with the ways of 'real' Americans." The additional context you've offered does not change that plain text reading.

*Well, the racial component of that particular phrase is admittedly an assumption, but one that seems likely given his repeated use of a racial slur in the same speech.

[magellan01]

Taken in context, Apos interpretation is every bit as reasonable as your own. Your interpretation, while valid, requires a bit more extrapolation and assumption of motives than Apos*. His words were clearly directed at Sidharth. It takes an intuitive leap (although, again, not an unreasonable one) to assume that he was including Webb in those remarks in addition to Sidharth. The plain text reading is the one Apos presents: "You, Mr. Macaca, are an outsider who is unfamiliar with the ways of 'real' Americans." The additional context you've offered does not change that plain text reading.

I appreciate you trying to clarify things, but I think this is absurd. Do you really think he gives a shit about the kid at all? Do you think he would have even addressed him if he didn't know he was from Webb's campaign? Listen to the video, again. Sure, he addresses "Macaca" and refers to him three times. But the point of the entire thing is not the kid, it's Webb. You think this is a tortured interpretation? Or that the other one offered is more reasonable? Fine. Once again, we are worlds apart.

[Contrapuntal]

It is clear that the Virginia/America/beltway jibes were directed at Webb and not to the kid. Or to the kid as a representative of the other camp.To you perhaps. It is not nearly that clear to me. Making one dumbass remark hardly makes a second dumbass remark less likely. It may seem logical to you that his remarks were directed at his opponent, but inasmuch as the preceding remarks make little sense (unless viewed as a racist screed) one can hardly appeal to logic, can one?

In the absence of access to his inner thoughts and motivations, we are forced to take his words at face value. If he has already called the guy a little monkey, is it that much of a stretch to believe the 'welcome to America' part? Sure, you can claim that the context of his remarks suggest he was referring to Webb, but if that was the case, why not say so? Who was he trying to convince, exactly? Why did he need to speak in code, and use racial slurs, to make a fairly simple point, (rightly or wrongly) that Webb was unamiliar with the real Virginia?

If in fact his diatribe was directed at Webb, (which I doubt) then he is a chickenshit motherfucker and a pandering racist. If not, pretty much the same holds.

He needs to remember the rules of the playground, one of which is 'Pick on somebody your own size.' If the best explanation of his behavior is that he was ragging this kid out as a surrogate for someone with a bit of clout, who might even be able to hit back, then he is undeserving of your defense.

[Miller]

I appreciate you trying to clarify things, but I think this is absurd. Do you really think he gives a shit about the kid at all?

Enough to sling racial slurs at him, at least.

Do you think he would have even addressed him if he didn't know he was from Webb's campaign?

No, he wouldn't, but that doesn't prove your point. He would not have attacked the kid if the kid weren't working for Webb's campaign, obviously. But that does not mean that his words were not targeted at the kid. Imagine that, instead of insulting Sidharth, Allen was so incensed by the prescence of a member of the opposite camp that he physically attacked him. Would you argue that he "wasn't really punching the kid, he was punching Webb?" He wouldn't have jumped him if he weren't a member of the opposition, but that doesn't mean the fists he was swinging at the kid were landing somewhere else.

Listen to the video, again. Sure, he addresses "Macaca" and refers to him three times. But the point of the entire thing is not the kid, it's Webb. You think this is a tortured interpretation? Or that the other one offered is more reasonable?

Where have I said anything about your argument that could be remotely interpreted as "tortured"? I've said, repeatedly, that it's a reasonable argument and most likely correct. I've merely pointed out, also repeatedly, that your argument does not invalidate Apos's argument. Allen was clearly speaking directly to Sidharth, and intended his words for Sidharth. That his words were also meant for Webb is a secondary, but still valid, meaning. Even if Sidharth was being used as a stand-in for Webb, that still implies that he and Webb share the qualities Allen assigned to them. Yes, he is saying that Webb is not a real American. But he's doing so by accusing Webb's campaign worker of not being a real American. The context you're arguing from merely widens the scope of Allen's remarks. It does not redirect them.

Fine. Once again, we are worlds apart.

You're certainly free to believe that your interpretation is the more likely one, but can you at least recognize that one can see a different spin on his words without being (as you have accused Apos) a "blind partisan" or deliberately taking words out of context? That there's some room for confusion over exactly who he was referring to? Especially when the full context is off-the-cuff, poorly considered speechifying, and not a carefully parsed, endlessly rewritten policy paper or academic thesis?

[magellan01]

...I've said, repeatedly, that it's a reasonable argument and most likely correct...

Okay. Good. Then we disagree merely in a matter of degree is to the reasonableness of the other interpretation. I maintain it requires a partisan bent. You disagree. We understand each other.

Onward.

[Blalron]

I guess you're right about that.
But do you really believe that he slipped up three times uttering a slur when he knew that he was being filmed by his opponents camp? He is smooth. He is no idiot. That's the part that makes no sense to me. He's not that dumb. I don't even thiink Cynthia McKinney would do something so dumb. And that's saying something.

Ever heard of a Freudian Slip (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freudian_slip)?

[Miller]

Okay. Good. Then we disagree merely in a matter of degree is to the reasonableness of the other interpretation. I maintain it requires a partisan bent. You disagree. We understand each other.


Just curious, but would you consider me to be a "partisan?"

[magellan01]

Just curious, but would you consider me to be a "partisan?"

My impression is no, except as it applies to gay issues and those who take a strong stance against them.

[Miller]

Can't say you're wrong there. Thanks.

[magellan01]

Can't say you're wrong there. Thanks.

Thanks for trying to help.