Michigan Womyn's Music Festival now openly admitting out trans women

[Johanna]

On the strap-on message board the other day I read news about the détente of an old transgender discrimination issue. Several people, among them several activists for trans inclusion, rejoiced at the news in that thread and compared it to the fall of the Berlin Wall. I personally feel it's a milestone for trans rights, yay us.

Lorraine, an out trans woman, went to admissions at the entrance to the Michigan Women's Music Festival and bought a ticket. She stated she was a trans woman. They were cool with that. She went in. The whole time she was in she was out. Nobody interfered with her, and she got a lot of support from many of them women there for being so out while she was in. She went out, back to Camp Trans across the way... and then went back to MWMF and again Festies were cool with her being there.

Note to Dopers: I do not want to start a transboard interchange of membership. I have not registered at that board and I urge you not to also. That's why I haven't posted the link to it. If I did it would be presented FYI only. Read-only. This decision is from my personal understanding of how to be a good Straight Dope citizen. If you would really like to read it -- for one thing they had an interesting, civil, even polite albeit pointed debate with a transphobe from the MWMF -- and Lorraine the pioneer integrator also posted in that thread -- I did post the link to it in a thread about the spelling womyn the other day, before I considered the transboard issues, in case a mod feels it necessary to remove the link... but that strap-on board thread with the news about MWMF has now been locked, anyway.

[matt_mcl]

Well, if it's become a generalized policy, that's excellent news. I too have been waiting for the day when MWMF would decide that they shouldn't be imposing their definitions of womanhood onto other women.

[AHunter3]

Blame whats-her-name...Jan Raymond? for the longstanding prior attitude.

The whole "well gee if you were born male and you don't like [what we think of as] the artificial polarization of the sexes into constricted sex roles, why don't you help us get rid of the fence instead of jumping over it?" shtick, coupled with a really hateful attitude towards M2F's ("Aha, caught ya, SPY, sneaking under the fence to infiltrate us real women!")


I'm neither female-born nor transsexual but I would have enjoyed showing up to hear Meg Christian and Holly Near sing their stuff back in the day :(

[Leaper]

And now we know that someone DOES still use the word "womyn"...

[susan]

Glad to hear it! Thanks.

[Johanna]

When I was typing the OP I got so excited, I slipped and typed the correct spelling of women by mistake.

Johanna
Former copy editor

[Idlewild]

Oh I'm so glad to hear this!

[Shirley Ujest]

Pardon my ignorance, but is an Out trans woman a man who was a woman living openly in their new sex choice?



And another question: There are tranny's in Michigan? Really? Huh. I thought it was either rednecks or yuppies.


I, for one, welcome our tranny overlords.

[Broomstick]

I don't personally have an opinion on this. I do, however, believe my late sister is rolling in her grave over this as I recall her being in support of the MWMF being only for "womyn-born-womyn" or however she put it.

Frankly, since I never got her brand of militant lesibianism on a visceral level I shouldn't be surprised I could never understand her attitudes towards what she called "other perverts". I can't understand transsexualism on a visceral level, either, for that matter, much less why all these folks have been arguing for so many years.

But I guess, if I dared to have an opinion, I'd think it was a positive that they've become more inclusive.

The really strange thing is that despite being a woman (and a "born woman" at at that) I never felt I fit in with the whole crowd that attends those festivals.

[Johanna]

Pardon my ignorance, but is an Out trans woman a man who was a woman living openly in their new sex choice?No, I meant someone who was born male-bodied and is now living as a woman. In this context, "out" means she's openly saying she was trans, i.e. hed been assigned as male at birth, and now presents female. The opposite of that is called "stealth," i.e. letting everyone think you've always been presenting female since birth.
And another question: There are tranny's in Michigan? Really? Huh. I thought it was either rednecks or yuppies.Rednecks, yuppies, doesn't matter--anyone in any walk of life can turn out to be trans. The occurrence of transsexualism isn't conditioned by cultural or economic influences. It has been occurring in all different cultures around the world throughout history. Although the liberalism or repression of one's social setting can definitely affect one's ability to come out. Anyway, attendees of MWMF come from all over the country.I, for one, welcome our tranny overlords.Fly trans love airlines...
(Donovan)

[susan]

I was just moving some books around (new bookcases) and looking at The Transsexual Empire, (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0807762725/104-9372097-2712753?v=glance&n=283155) which I keep on my Shelf of Oppression along with [rl=http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000DZU4XU/sr=1-2/qid=1156011792/ref=sr_1_2/104-9372097-2712753?ie=UTF8&s=books]Everything You Always Wanted to Know about Sex[/url] and a book on aversion shock therapy for gay men. So much hostile misinformation, so little time.

[susan]

Everything You Always Wanted to Know about Sex (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000DZU4XU/sr=1-2/qid=1156011792/ref=sr_1_2/104-9372097-2712753?ie=UTF8&s=books)

[elfbabe]

Huh! A friend of mine was actually there (at Camp Trans) this year, and she didn't mention anything about this. Though I'm talking to her now and she says she knew about it...

I'm glad for the change and I hope it sticks... but I have to say, from looking at sites and stuff for both, the protest camp (Camp Trans) looked like way more fun than MWMF itself. :p

[Moirai]

Thanks for the definitions... I guess my friend is a stealth, as she never publicly mentions being born a man, and I frankly never would have guessed.

Although in the GLTB community, maybe she is out.

[Miller]

Everything You Always Wanted to Know about Sex (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000DZU4XU/sr=1-2/qid=1156011792/ref=sr_1_2/104-9372097-2712753?ie=UTF8&s=books)

Just curious, but what's oppressive about this one? I only know about it through the Woody Allen movie.

[Boyo Jim]

I don't understand the terminology and I know nothing about the event. But has that ever stopped a Doper from chiming in? ;)

Is this festival a "members-only" event? Or are any women, or wymen, allowed through the gate?

If the former, all well an good. People may allow anyone they wish into their membership, given a few legal constraints that I know exist, but can't enumerate. And they can certainly hold exclusive events for their members.

If the latter, I'd be amazed if it's not in violation of the law. But I am not a lawyer, and I have been amazed many times before.

Rather than getting into a quandry over what a woman is. let's just for the moment agree that it's anyone who says they're a woman. PS, please feel free to substitute any PC-er words you prefer for woman or women.

[elfbabe]

The policy of MWMF is/was that only "womyn-born womyn" (or possibly "womon-born womyn", I'm not quite sure) are/were allowed in. That means people who were raised as female.

More info (not updated to include recent developments) is available at the Camp Trans website (http://camptrans.squarespace.com), particularly at http://camptrans.squarespace.com/trans-inclusion-and-michfest/

Note that the Camp Trans people spell it "women". Ha!

[susan]

Everything You Always Wanted to Know about Sex... was, even at time of publication, full of misinformation, medically incorrect statements, and highly biased, snarky commentary. There were numerous double standards (e.g., sexual act X is great if performed by heterosexuals, but an inadequate act if performed by homosexuals).

It was published in 1969. My copy is the paperback edition of 1971.

The section on lesbians is under 3 pages. It asserts that

"the majority of prostitutes are female homosexuals in their private lives...." (269)

"Like their male counterparts, lesbians are handicapped by having only half the pieces of the anatomical jigsaw puzzle." (269).

"Just as one penis plus one penis equals nothing, one vagina plus another vagina still equals zero." (269)

"Lesbians with this anatomical quirk [a clitoris of 2+ inches] are in great demand." (270)

A dildo permits "an unreasonable facimile of heterosexual intercourse" (270).

"No matter how ingenious they [homosexuals] are, their sexual practices must always be some sort of imitation of heterosexual intercourse." (270)

Taking turns with a dildo is "too dull for the one who has already had her turn." (270)

Describing a double-headed dildo, he says, "The unanswered question at this point then becomes why they need each other. If they snip the harigata in the middle, both girls (sic) can go home and enjoy themselves at leisure." (270-271)

"Female homosexual relationships also seem to last a little longer than the male equivalent, but their course is no less stormy; the girls betray and deceive each other with monotonous regularity." (271-272)

Now, some of this would make sense as an opinion (albeit, IMHO, a stupid one) if he did not assert elsewhere in the book that, for example, "As a form of heterosexual activity incidental to penis-vagina intercourse, mouth-genital stimulation is not only perfectly all right to practice, but in many situations desirable" (64) because it causes the woman to have an orgasm "rapidly and vigorously" (64), but if we were to do this all the time, "the birth rate would quickly fall to zero" (65)

Male homosexuality warrants its own chapter of 28 pages. This extended coverage isn't a good thing. Here are some tidbits:

"they often transform themselves into part-time women. They don women's clothes, wear makeup, adopt feminine mannerisms, and occasionally even try to rearrange their bodies along feminine lines." (159)

"most homosexuals at one time or another in their lives act out some aspect of the female role." (159)

Homosexual men given estrogen "developed enlarged breasts and loss of body hair--they were delighted." (162)

"A lot of homosexuals would like to think [that they were born gay and that]... their problem the equivalent of a club foot or birthmark.... This explanation is a little tragic. It implies that all homosexuals are condemned without appeal to a life some of them say they enjoy so much." (162)

As to homosexual sex, "Three to five minutes should be enough for the entire operation (163).

"No feeling, no sentiment, no nothing." (164)

"No names, no faces, no emotions." (164)

"Homosexuals thrive on danger." (165)

He then has a multi-page description of "S and M" (165-167).

"Mother Nature didn't see fit to provide him with a vagina so he gets his fun where he finds it." (168)

He then goes into a long description of drag, understood as trying to look like a woman on the part of the receptive partner, including artificial vaginas (169-171).
Then a section on how more "masculine" homosexuals wear tight underwear to display their genitals. Then on to transvestites (173-175).

Then he asserts that homosexuals aren't concerned about the consequences of their behavior (175), stating categorically in response to the question 'But all homosexuals aren't like that, are they?', "Unfortunately, they are just like that." (176)

"Homosexuals are trying the impossible: solving the problem with only half the pieces" (176), which is why they are so promiscuous. Again, "One penis plus one penis equals nothing" (176).

"Homosexuals who live together for years" are "mighty rare birds among the homosexual flock." Moreover, the 'happy' part remains to be seen.... Live together? Yes. Happily? Hardly." (176-177)

There is then a short segment about how the only thing homosexual men and women have in common is their contempt for "straight arrows" and how they dislike the other sex (177), then a description of finding partners at a gay bar, then gay slang. Then a section that's highly psychoanalytic in nature about why so much gay slang is food oriented (181) that leads in turn into a harrowing emergency room account of what homosexuals put in themselves and what they put themselves into (182-185).

Then, still in this chapter, what passes for a trans section (185-187). The gist is that getting a "male vagina" is the "consuming wish of some homosexuals" (185). This is a "bizarre" surgery, resulting in "simply a man who has lost his external genitalia" (186), who are "actually castrated and mutilated female impersonators" (186), two of whom "ironically" died of breast cancer (186).

If you think the heterosexual sections are less opinionated or incorrect, you'd be mistaken. For example, he had the phases of the female sexual response cycle in te wrong order. And this was the liberal, swingin', sex-positive, revolutionary book. From today's vantage, it's not much better than a Victorian marriage manual.

This book was how I learned about homosexuality in 1974. It was actually more positive than some of the other "scientific" books available, if you can believe it (though there was reasonable sociomedical information available that contradicted many of his assertions) There was a 2000 revision; I haven't read it.

[I]The Transsexual Empire, by the way, is a long rant based on the idea that by having a sex change operation, men are trying to steal the womyn-energy.

[Lama Pacos]

Good to hear. Just curious, though-- Is the Michigan's Womyn's Music Festival, like, significant? Can't say I know much about the women's music festival circuit.

[Miller]

Wow, I was just expecting, "It says dumb stuff about gays." Thanks for typing out all the quotes, Shoshana!

[susan]

It's a cathatric experience.

[matt_mcl]

Pardon my ignorance, but is an Out trans woman a man who was a woman living openly in their new sex choice?

Johanna addressed this. When speaking of a trans person, the gender used ought to reflect their gender of identification; so a trans woman is a woman who was identified as male at birth and now identifies as female. Sexual orientation is described similarly, so that a trans woman who likes men is described as heterosexual.

(Confusion may arise because some old medical texts refer to a "transsexual male" when they mean a transwoman, or refer to e.g. a lesbian transwoman as "heterosexual.")

[Little Nemo]

In the spirit of conciliation brought about by this decision, trans women have announced they will start spelling trans as tranzz.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Mrs. Dewgrrl and I were in attendance at the Festival earlier this month. It was my 3rd Fest since 1998, and my girlfriend's first. I have always advocated (when a conversational opportunity presents itself, both within and outside the Festival) for the inclusion of all woman-identified beings, regardless of what bits one is born with.

This was the 31st consecutive annual Festival put on by the same organizers. It has a broad-reaching lesbian cultural inertia, for lack of better words. When coming out as a babydyke in college (mid 1990's), I ravenously consumed what books, publications, and media I could. A significant amount of that media referred to the MWMF.

Music is written/inspired by it. Erotica is written about it. Stand-up comedy routines are written about it.

This year, when lined up on the dirt road with all of the other Festival attendants waiting for admission through the gates, I was approached by a FtM transman carrying inclusion-friendly information and passing out yellow bands of ribbon to wear while in the festival, symbolizing the desire for the discussion of inclusion. I wore mine for as long as it would stay put.

I have seen people who were arguably MtF and FtM transfolk every time I've been to Michigan, yet the policy that is publically discussed is "women born women" only.

Despite the situation in the OP, I doubt the public face of the festival will change. I could be wrong. There is a significant seperatist population who supports the Festival. The policy, imho, is a somewhat political self-preservation. They don't want to turn off their seperatist base.

This year had very low numbers in attendance., especially compared to last year (the 30th anniversary and apparently quite the blow-out...I missed it). There are always concerns that the organizers will not be able to keep up the momentum with the numbers slipping. It is hard to tell with data from this year or last year.

I'm much more interested in what happens at the Festival gates than what is debated about publically on message boards and websites. For now, inclusion is happening at the gate, and that is a Good Thing (tm).

[Eve]

Oh, Christ, this doesn't mean I have to go to the thing, does it?

[Boyo Jim]

Oh, Christ, this doesn't mean I have to go to the thing, does it?

Depends how you spell "wymen".

[Miller]

Depends how you spell "wymen".

It's spelled "womyn," you... you patriarch!

[Zsofia]

Oh, Christ, this doesn't mean I have to go to the thing, does it?
I think you're safe - I doubt you meet the dress code requirements. I can't at all imagine you in Birkenstocks and overalls.

(Please don't hit me, anybody. I went to a hairy-legged women's college, I have Birkenstock cred. ;) )

[Boyo Jim]

It's spelled "womyn," you... you patriarch!

I have been struggling with the burden of my penis all my life. Many are the times I have tried to slowly abrade it down by repeated stroking, but against all expectations it grows LARGER. :eek:

[Broomstick]

Oh, Christ, this doesn't mean I have to go to the thing, does it?
No, dear. Completely optional. Don't associate with people JUST because you share their gender (even if they don't believe you do). Associate with quality people regardless of their gender/orientation/hirsuiteness/whatever.

My sister tried to drag me off to this festival for years. I never went, I just never felt comfortable even as the womyn-born sister of a promoter. Too much of a tomboy, I guess. Or something. She let it go, but some of her friends were.. um.. quite eloquent, shall we say, on my inadequacies as a "syster" or whatever. Which was the nail in the coffin as far as I was concerned. For the "friends" and the festival both. I had enough of people telling me I wasn't feminine enough, ladylike enough, and so on - the last thing I wanted to do was hang out with a bunch of angry dykes who presumed to judge my "womanliness" when my installed-before-birth clit was just as good and functional theirs. Or whatever. :rolleyes:

(Apologies to MWMF goers who aren't like that - but I'm sure you've encountered the type)

[FriarTed]

I have been struggling with the burden of my penis all my life. Many are the times I have tried to slowly abrade it down by repeated stroking, but against all expectations it grows LARGER. :eek:


Thank you, my fellow Oppresed Brothyr.


Alas, it'll be a cold day in Persephone's Winter Home, when we're allowed into the MWMF!

[Eve]

I think you're safe - I doubt you meet the dress code requirements. I can't at all imagine you in Birkenstocks and overalls.

I can just see me breezing in decked out like Kay Francis (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.noirfilm.com/kay%2520francis.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.noirfilm.com/Screenings_Poverty_Row_2.htm&h=440&w=344&sz=16&hl=en&start=2&tbnid=du9_7Fm3LGx_2M:&tbnh=127&tbnw=99&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522Kay-Francis%2522%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG) and asking, "So, darlings, where is the ladies' room, I must freshen up my lipstick!"

[Guinastasia]

It's spelled "womyn," you... you patriarch!


Yeah, do they let in womEn born womEn?

[Miller]

I can just see me breezing in decked out like Kay Francis (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.noirfilm.com/kay%2520francis.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.noirfilm.com/Screenings_Poverty_Row_2.htm&h=440&w=344&sz=16&hl=en&start=2&tbnid=du9_7Fm3LGx_2M:&tbnh=127&tbnw=99&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522Kay-Francis%2522%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG) and asking, "So, darlings, where is the ladies' room, I must freshen up my lipstick!"

I would pay good money to see that.

[Boyo Jim]

I would pay good money to see that.

Is there bad money?

[Miller]

Is there bad money?

No. And if I ever have to settle a debt with you, I intend to pay it in these. (http://pages.sbcglobal.net/bryanbaskin/pix/monopoly_money.jpg) Money is money, right? ;)

[Boyo Jim]

Great! I've been hoping to get into Atlantic City real estate.

[Johanna]

Thanks, honeydewgrrl, from my heart.

[JillGat]

For now, inclusion is happening at the gate, and that is a Good Thing (tm).

Inclusion for trans-women, but continued exclusion of anyone who still identifies as male.

[Eonwe]

"Just as one penis plus one penis equals nothing, one vagina plus another vagina still equals zero." (269)


That must be that 'New Math' I keep hearing so much about. ;)

[susan]

Imagine the look on the face of the teeshirt store clerk when I had that phrase ironed onto a teeshirt in 1980.

[Boyo Jim]

Inclusion for trans-women, but continued exclusion of anyone who still identifies as male.

I certainly don't want to go where I'm not wanted, but how do they get away with that? On what legal basis can they do it?

[Guinastasia]

I certainly don't want to go where I'm not wanted, but how do they get away with that? On what legal basis can they do it?


If it's a privately funded event, they can do whatever they damned well please.

[Boyo Jim]

If it's a privately funded event, they can do whatever they damned well please.

No, they can't. I will do some research to find some some cases where private men's clubs were ordered by courts to open up their events or services to women. It is not cut and dried. Especially if they open up an event beyond their membership, but discrimate on which part of the public they let in. Like I said in an earlier post -- I don't think there would be any issue if this were a "members-only" event, but apparently it's not.

[JillGat]

No, they can't. I will do some research to find some some cases where private men's clubs were ordered by courts to open up their events or services to women. It is not cut and dried. Especially if they open up an event beyond their membership, but discrimate on which part of the public they let in. Like I said in an earlier post -- I don't think there would be any issue if this were a "members-only" event, but apparently it's not.

I guess the question is whether anyone who is currently not allowed to attend this event would even want to fight for the right to go. In this day and age, it sounds kind of boring to me, personally.

[AHunter3]

I think the argument w/regards to the private men's clubs was that they were being used for political and economic networking — not just now and then but as a fundamental aspect of what went on there. So they weren't really "social clubs" but rather constituted the environment in which business was conducted.

Anyone might choose to disagree with that argument, but I believe it was the argument that was made and was the basis of the decision.

[Boyo Jim]

I know the analogy to men's clubs is not partvularly good. I think some were forced open at the threat of losing tax-exempt status. Others offered services open to the general public, like a restaurant attach to a golf course, which were such a large part of the organization that they someow were deemed to no longer be "private". IANAL and I don't know the legal particulars.

But I do know that being "provate is in and of itself not enough to make discrimination legal. If I am the sole owner of a large apartment complex, I can't exclude black tennants merely becase I want to. There are an ebless number of private usinesses that cannot discrimate against classes of citizens because they don't like their class.

Looking through the Festival website, (http://www.michfest.com/festival/index.htm) I don't see a single word in tthe FAQ, ticket info page, registration form or "first-timer" page which indicates men may not enter. I f I had sent a check to the festival in good faith and them been barred at the gate, I would be VERY pissed off.

I'm going to start a GQ thread about under what conditions some one or some group can discriminate based on gender.

[JillGat]

Many years ago there was a Holly Near concert here and I bought tickets for my husband and me. I knew her music before she was way into women's/lesbians' issues and always thought she was a very talented singer/songwriter. I think my husband would have enjoyed her music too, but he never found out. We didn't know until we got there that men weren't allowed for the first half of the concert they certainly didn't tell us when they sold us the expensive tickets). It was too cold outside and he didn't want to wait around, so he went home. Holly apparently didn't know about the exclusion either, because after the intermission she said, "I wondered why it was an all female-crowd! If I'd known about this, I wouldn't have saved all my dyke songs for the second half."

I thought those days were over, but I guess not.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

There have been two press-releases regarding the policies used at this year's festival.

The first was apparently released by Camp Trans (http://www.camptrans.squarespace.com/latest-news/2006/8/21/camp-trans-press-release.html), which was then followed by a release from Lisa Vogel (http://eminism.org/michigan/20060822-mwmf.txt) , the MWMF producer, owner of the private land, etc.

[Johanna]

Two different interpretations of the same event... Which version will ultimately reflect the reality on the land? Each side is spinning the facts its way... but spin is made of words in air... the real truth is on the ground, in the hearts and minds.

As for admitting guys, Lisa Vogel states: "At other times, Camp Trans activists have advocated opening the Festival to all sexes and genders."

[gigi]

Depends how you spell "wymen".Hmm, the parallel with hymen...maybe this is a good alternative.

Yeah, I thought the thread would be about someone admitted as a performer, not a spectator. The first restriction makes more sense than the second.

[JillGat]

Says the director of the festival: "We refuse to be forced into false
dichotomies that equate being pro-womyn-born womyn space with being
anti-trans; indeed, many of the womyn essential to the Michigan
Festival are leaders and supporters of trans-solidarity work."

This is like saying, "Just because the Elks Club doesn't allow blacks to join doesn't mean we are anti-black. Some of our best friends are black!" And then she goes on about "celebrating diversity" (especially within the "queer community.").

I have mixed feelings. I don't think men - or whomever else is not allowed to attend - should fight to be part of something that isn't designed for them or wouldn't even probably hold any interest for them. On the other hand it bugs me when people claim to "celebrate diversity" while creating "spaces" for a bunch of people who are basically alike and officially disallowing certain members of the population to come in. It seems so insecure and feeding into powerlessness. There are different viewpoints on this topic and I got bored with "women-only" (I can't say womyn; that just sounds silly) deal about 25 years ago.

This kind of makes my opinion irrelevent anyway, because I would never go. So you can ignore this and carry on!